The Refuge of the Toads

[feathers]

Snopeteers can't be trusted, remember?

fixxored.

[feathers]

http://imgur.com/qkwBGEz.jpg

Hmm... Jar-Jar Myers. I wonder if we could get that name to stick.

Or PZ Binks? Hmm no, that sounds like a police officer from a British crime series.

[paddybrown]

http://imgur.com/qkwBGEz.jpg

Hmm... Jar-Jar Myers. I wonder if we could get that name to stick.

Or PZ Binks? Hmm no, that sounds like a police officer from a British crime series.

Par-Zar Minks?

[feathers]

Traffic fines are for little people. And entitled handicappers need to check their privilege.

http://imgur.com/R5xV5xQ.jpg

She should be glad that at the Denver(?) police takes the handicappedly diverse seriously, as that's what she's always been fighting for. 875 quid is a small price to pay for that- whatsit, 1 youtube clip?

[feathers]

Wu for congress!

http://1u88jj3r4db2x4txp44yqfj1.wpengin ... nna-wu.jpg

Where, when and what did she win from the "alt-right"?

[Kirbmarc]

Wu for congress!

http://1u88jj3r4db2x4txp44yqfj1.wpengin ... nna-wu.jpg

Where, when and what did she win from the "alt-right"at life in any form?

FTFY.

Wu was badmouthed behind her back by her own SJW friends as a colossal screwup. I really don't get why anyone would think she's qualified for any kind of political position.

At least Trump is a successful media personality and actually famous. Wu is...literally Wu?

[Kirbmarc]

Gilliel is probably more qualified for a political office than Wu, since she's done some social work. Not that I think she'sld any good, but what exactly has Wu come behind get a loan from her parents and create a shitty game?

[DaveDodo007]

Fuck Snopes.

https://i.redd.it/4qx5agnl6v4y.png

[dogen]

I would like to report that, according to my bike instructor, the roads are going to be a bit less safe from now on (for me, mostly).

I had my last chance at the driving exam this morning, and on all accounts I passed with flying colors. Now I have to wait 48 hours for the final verdict.

If I did indeed pass, that's one hell of a nice christmas present.

Good on you, mate -- a worthy achievement!

[dogen]

Meh, I loved the original Independence Day because it was so amusingly bad. (Also, Sydney apparently survived unscathed, meaning Australia would be the new powerhouse in the new world order.) The sequel is okay, but doesn't have the same joy.

As I said, the movie itself is not that good. The soppy love stories are fucking annoying. But there's potential as far as the ID4 universe is concerned. For example, I liked the hybrid technology, or the fact that the alien ship is so massive it has its own gravity, or that they're a third faction involved, or that the aliens' technology (the fighters) have evolved since the War of 96, which is pretty logical. You know, that sort of details.

I think I kind of ignored the movie story line and concentrated more on those aspects.

And I love the first ID4 as well, for the cheer entertainment value.

I imagine the aliens also had to upgrade their ships to use Thunderbolt connectors -- otherwise, how would Jeff Goldblum be able to plug in his 2015 13" Retina MacBook Pro and hack the mothership again?

[Aneris]

Berlin Terror Attack: a Tunisian man, connected to Salafists now suspected. He once sought asylum, but it was rejected.

[Kirbmarc]

Fuck Snopes.

https://i.redd.it/4qx5agnl6v4y.png

When has snopes said that the election was rigged?

[Aneris]

Saw this on Twitter:

Of course! For mysterious reasons, “white” women can say “blue lives matter”, or that they have black friends and so on.

[MarcusAu]

My family used to play that game.

It's quite fun to pick the New Year's resolution for other people - rather than doing your own.

[Service Dog]

Jordan Peterson: 'If the old gods are dead, as Neitsche said. Then new gods are quick to swoop in. And if you thought the old god was bad, wait until the new gods get ahold of you. As we saw in the 20th Century'....

It looks like the old, tired apologist argument that religion is "inevitable" and "everyone worships something" so we might as well stick with the old religion, warts and all....

I don't think that's what he's saying at all. I've watched heaps of his lecturers since he came to attention. One thing he points out is that creation stories, which predate the written word, are packed with meaning and lessons about running societies that had to be compact and memorable to survive in an oral tradition....

Yes, that's true, but this doesn't make them accurate, or coherent. Things that have memetic abilities aren't necessarily filled with truth content. There's a constant selection of memes in societies. Compactness and being memorable are good advantages for a meme to survive....

To Peterson, survival is everything. He's firmly "Darwinian". He denies that there's anything 'more true' than survival over time. The Egyptians maintained stable way of life for thousands of years, relatively unchanged. Their memes were winners. The old gods/new gods line I quoted appears about 38 minutes into "2016 Lecture 5 Part II: Maps of Meaning: The brain, continued". As soon I heard it, I paused the video & posted the quote [probably not getting it exactly-verbatim], because it seemed so relevant to the response to MarcusAu, which I had already posted. Immediately preceding the quote, he cites Joseph Campbell's monomyth to say that our recent western culture does a good job at the Exploratory Hero first-part/ but we do a poorer job, at the part where the hero is supposed to come-back & share what he learned from exploring-- integrating it with the "dead culture" "dead father", rather than leave it behind. He doesn't mention egyptian gods, but he's making the same point.

This morning, after reading the discussion here, I un-paused the video & Jordan continued-- specifying that the anti-survival of the species effects of Nazi fascism & Communism-- were far more deadly than the old religions they replaced. Peterson claims the archaic religion/myth systems are "not ideologies. They're something-else, we don't understand them very-well, and it's not good. Because you cannot live without understanding them. You do not know who you are. And then you fall prey to weird mental diseases such as nihilism, that's one. Another one is ideological possession, so you become a totalitarian... and that's a bad outcome."

I think Keating's right that Sam Harris came to similar conclusions about Buddhist meditation. Both the benefit of ritually thinking about what sort of person you want to be/ as well as the danger in employing the "mindful" aspect without the "compassion" aspect of the old teaching... a corruption of the old system which can result in a cool-headed, value-judgement-free, 'scientific' mentality, while committing atrocities such as suicide-attacks or nazi-SS torture.

[Kirbmarc]

Saw this on Twitter:

Of course! For mysterious reasons, “white” women can say “blue lives matter”, or that they have black friends and so on.

Also, America was never great for anyone who wasn't a white guy. It's like all the women or non-white people who voted for Trump never existed.

[deLurch]

Fuck Snopes.
https://i.redd.it/4qx5agnl6v4y.png

Tweets like that are cute, but with only 144 characters they frequently don't convey enough information to back up their claims.

[Kirbmarc]

Or, you know, anyone who wasn't a white guy and actually found America to be great. Nope, it was only white guys (or maybe traitors) who found America great. Not a very great message.

[Shatterface]

More beheadings:

Goat sacrificed to ensure the safety of a Pakistan plane

PIA, Pakistan’s national airline, has been roundly mocked after officials sacrificed a black goat to bring luck to a plane departing from Islamabad airport on Sunday.

The animal was beheaded on the runway by airline officials before the take-off of a turboprop ATR-42 aircraft – the same model as the PIA plane that crashed into a mountain on December 7, killing all 48 people on board.

http://freethinker.co.uk/2016/12/21/goa ... tan-plane/

[deLurch]

They can behead all of goats they want if they would just lay off the humans.

[Tigzy]

More beheadings:

Goat sacrificed to ensure the safety of a Pakistan plane

PIA, Pakistan’s national airline, has been roundly mocked after officials sacrificed a black goat to bring luck to a plane departing from Islamabad airport on Sunday.

The animal was beheaded on the runway by airline officials before the take-off of a turboprop ATR-42 aircraft – the same model as the PIA plane that crashed into a mountain on December 7, killing all 48 people on board.

http://freethinker.co.uk/2016/12/21/goa ... tan-plane/

If that was one of the thousand young of the black goat of the woods, them folks may well end up submitting - quite desperately, in fact - to a god other than allah.

[Mr. X, Indeed]

Saw this on Twitter:

Of course! For mysterious reasons, “white” women can say “blue lives matter”, or that they have black friends and so on.

Now that the merger with CBS is dead, Viacom is in trouble. Outrage can generate a few more views. It's ultimately a losing game, but the middle managers have to hit numbers to either get bonuses or keep their jobs. Viacom hasn't figured out the internet and is flailing aimlessly trying to find a viable business plan.

The video is completely laughable, though.

[Kirbmarc]

This morning, after reading the discussion here, I un-paused the video & Jordan continued-- specifying that the anti-survival of the species effects of Nazi fascism & Communism-- were far more deadly than the old religions they replaced.

This is inaccurate. Islam was as deadly as nazism in the Moghul empire. Christianity was as deadly as communism to Saxon pagans or French catars. To say nothing of interfaith fighting between different Christian and Muslim sects.

Peterson is repeating old apologist arguments that overlook religiously inspired massacres to make ideological ones look worse.

Peterson claims the archaic religion/myth systems are "not ideologies. They're something-else, we don't understand them very-well, and it's not good. Because you cannot live without understanding them. You do not know who you are. And then you fall prey to weird mental diseases such as nihilism, that's one. Another one is ideological possession, so you become a totalitarian... and that's a bad outcome."

This is special pleading. Religions ARE ideologies. The only significant difference between ideologies and religions is the idea of when the efforts of the "good people" are rewarded, in a future rather than in a metaphysical realm after death.

Also the "atheism leads to nihilism and totalitarianism" meme is textbook William Lane Craig-style Christian apology.

[/quote]I think Keating's right that Sam Harris came to similar conclusions about Buddhist meditation. Both the benefit of ritually thinking about what sort of person you want to be/ as well as the danger in employing the "mindful" aspect without the "compassion" aspect of the old teaching... a corruption of the old system which can result in a cool-headed, value-judgement-free, 'scientific' mentality, while committing atrocities such as suicide-attacks or nazi-SS torture.[/quote]

I don't think that Harris has ever argued that atheism leads to nihilism and totalitarianism.

[Kirbmarc]

I think that Peterson is just as bad as Nick Matte. Both superimpose their ideology to their scientific work. Both create narratives to justify imposing their values as a result of dubious research.

[Service Dog]

This morning, after reading the discussion here, I un-paused the video & Jordan continued-- specifying that the anti-survival of the species effects of Nazi fascism & Communism-- were far more deadly than the old religions they replaced.

This is inaccurate. Islam was as deadly as nazism in the Moghul empire. Christianity was as deadly as communism to Saxon pagans or French catars. To say nothing of interfaith fighting between different Christian and Muslim sects.

Peterson is repeating old apologist arguments that overlook religiously inspired massacres to make ideological ones look worse.

Peterson claims the archaic religion/myth systems are "not ideologies. They're something-else, we don't understand them very-well, and it's not good. Because you cannot live without understanding them. You do not know who you are. And then you fall prey to weird mental diseases such as nihilism, that's one. Another one is ideological possession, so you become a totalitarian... and that's a bad outcome."

This is special pleading. Religions ARE ideologies. The only significant difference between ideologies and religions is the idea of when the efforts of the "good people" are rewarded, in a future rather than in a metaphysical realm after death.

Also the "atheism leads to nihilism and totalitarianism" meme is textbook William Lane Craig-style Christian apology.

I think Keating's right that Sam Harris came to similar conclusions about Buddhist meditation. Both the benefit of ritually thinking about what sort of person you want to be/ as well as the danger in employing the "mindful" aspect without the "compassion" aspect of the old teaching... a corruption of the old system which can result in a cool-headed, value-judgement-free, 'scientific' mentality, while committing atrocities such as suicide-attacks or nazi-SS torture.[/quote]

I don't think that Harris has ever argued that atheism leads to nihilism and totalitarianism.[/quote]


Without putting words in Peterson's mouth/ but arguing my own interpretation of his ideas... I think he might say the threat of Islam or dark ages Christianity is less than that of 20th Century fascism & communism-- because the former contenders could only thrive in the pre-scientific era. Whereas fascism & communism are compatible-enough with Science & Technology to exist now & do high-tech harm.

As for the difference between religions & ideologies-- I think he'd say there aren't any non-religious ideologies which have been vetted by the test of time-- to be on a par with longstanding myths. The distinction isn't religion vs. ideology.... it's old vs. new.

[Spike13]

Wu for congress!

http://1u88jj3r4db2x4txp44yqfj1.wpengin ... nna-wu.jpg

Is that real? And what did she win?

She is very smart; now that she'll be campaigning for the next two years (minimum) for the seat to open up, she has a great excuse as to why her game hasn't come out yet.

If I' make not mistaken, her game came out... to not much fan fare or critical acclaim.( the reviews panned it)

From the vid review I saw, it looked pretty lame. A point and click adventure.( you work certain keys to make stuff happen.)

I found that the perspectives in the backgrounds and various scenes seemed off. Not my cup of tea.

[Dave]

And so they eat their own.

I think Ive mentioned the "Soooper Seeekret" FB group, Pantsuit Nation, here before. Virtue Signalling Nation is more like it. Anyway, apparently, it too is now to be consumed at the gaping maw of Social Justice:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/pan ... 7df167cb4d

[VickyCaramel]

Saw this on Twitter:

Of course! For mysterious reasons, “white” women can say “blue lives matter”, or that they have black friends and so on.

Eighty thousand likes! -- Winning!

[Kirbmarc]

Also, the values of secular liberal democracy aren't good because they're "western". They're good because they are the best way (that we know of so far) to create social compromises without exterminating or subjugating the "outcasts".

They were a reaction to the tradition, not dependent on it. They are as identity-insensitive as science or math.

The problems come from in-group morality/out-group hostility, from considering one's group superior to others and so from applying double standards in terms of morality. To a certain extent this is a natural tribal instinct, so it's going to be with us humans forever (just like superstition, which is only distorting sequences of cause and effect).

But using labels and supporting religions/ideologies in the public sphere amplifies the issues that this instinct causes.

Secular liberal democracies limit dentities to private life, just like science and maths are procedural activities which limit subjective identitarian considerations.

[MarcusAu]

If that was one of the thousand young of the black goat of the woods, them folks may well end up submitting - quite desperately, in fact - to a god other than allah.

Well it's seasonal, I suppose - Happy Solstice (or Holidays or Xmas or whatever everyone)

[youtube][/youtube]

[Spike13]

While an 800$ fine is extremely exorbitant, (150-200$ would be much more in line) it wouldn't even cross my mind to park in a blue zone w/o a passenger that is handicapped even if the fine was 5$.(or nothing) Those spot exist and are reserved for a reason.

You did the crime, now you pay the fine. The fact she not only admits to being a parking shit heel, but complains about it just shows the content of her character.

Looks like someone will be cutting down on pink hair dye for a while... perhaps she can hide the grey roots with some judicious sharpie work.

[Kirbmarc]

Without putting words in Peterson's mouth/ but arguing my own interpretation of his ideas... I think he might say the threat of Islam or dark ages Christianity is less than that of 20th Century fascism & communism-- because the former contenders could only thrive in the pre-scientific era. Whereas fascism & communism are compatible-enough with Science & Technology to exist now & do high-tech harm.

As for the difference between religions & ideologies-- I think he'd say there aren't any non-religious ideologies which have been vetted by the test of time-- to be on a par with longstanding myths. The distinction isn't religion vs. ideology.... it's old vs. new.

Shouldn't religion be worse than nazism and ideology because they're harder to get rid of and so are likely very well adapted meme-parasites? The new variation of the flu might be deadly, but endemic cholera or plague are worse in the long run.

Nazism and communism were acute infections, but they were over relatively quickly in historic terms. Islam, on the other hand, is alive and kicking, mostly because the carriers of the islam meme are reproducing a lot and are supporre by a very well adapted parasitical structures of economic and politica power.

[fuzzy]

http://1u88jj3r4db2x4txp44yqfj1.wpengin ... nna-wu.jpg

I particularly enjoyed the reference to Fearless Leader.

[youtube][/youtube]

[Kirbmarc]

Basically we need a strong memetic immune system that selects the forms of the memes which are less socially dangerous to the whole societal body, by not letting them tale over the immune system itself.

Whether those memes are slow-burn ones which cause cyclical epidemies or quick-acting ones which also end up burning themselves out top after a big infection it makes no difference to the need of an immune system.

[Kirbmarc]

I think that Christianity has by and larve adapted to a secular società, where the role of religions is private. There are exceptions but they're contained.

Islam is still as dangerous as in the past, and now it's a much bigger concern than the largely dead nazism and moribound communism.

[Spike13]

I would like to report that, according to my bike instructor, the roads are going to be a bit less safe from now on (for me, mostly).

I had my last chance at the driving exam this morning, and on all accounts I passed with flying colors. Now I have to wait 48 hours for the final verdict.

If I did indeed pass, that's one hell of a nice christmas present.

Good luck Phil! You worked hard for it!

[Service Dog]

Kirb,

I don't think it's enough to handwave-away Jordan Peterson as "just as bad as Nick Motte", or call him "William Lane Craig-style". Or to accuse him of sneaking religious bullshit into separation of church & state, without citing any examples.

At some point, you gotta engage with the the specific iteration Jordan Peterson is espousing... if you're refuting Apologetics 1.0 & he's running version 2.0-- you haven't landed any punches on any of his patches or updates.

By my scorekeeping-- JP's ahead on points, this-far into the debate.

==
I think Peterson stays far-enough behind the line of church & state. In the Maps of Meaning course, he seems to apply a certain standard of scientific proof to things he presents as factual. There's definitely a speculative, sci-fi aspect to his beliefs-- but when he crosses the line into conjecture, he clearly marks the departure with, "I think..." before insinuating that DNA might have a sophisticated 'playfulness' built-in to it, & it might have arrived here on solar winds, from who-knows-where/ for who-knows what purpose.

If you wanna argue there's something incompatible with the body of science in his teaching-- you gotta catch him in an actual misstep.

[Kirbmarc]

Kirb,

I don't think it's enough to handwave-away Jordan Peterson as "just as bad as Nick Motte", or call him "William Lane Craig-style". Or to accuse him of sneaking religious bullshit into separation of church & state, without citing any examples.

At some point, you gotta engage with the the specific iteration Jordan Peterson is espousing... if you're refuting Apologetics 1.0 & he's running version 2.0-- you haven't landed any punches on any of his patches or updates.

By my scorekeeping-- JP's ahead on points, this-far into the debate.

==
I think Peterson stays far-enough behind the line of church & state. In the Maps of Meaning course, he seems to apply a certain standard of scientific proof to things he presents as factual. There's definitely a speculative, sci-fi aspect to his beliefs-- but when he crosses the line into conjecture, he clearly marks the departure with, "I think..." before insinuating that DNA might have a sophisticated 'playfulness' built-in to it, & it might have arrived here on solar winds, from who-knows-where/ for who-knows what purpose.

If you wanna argue there's something incompatible with the body of science in his teaching-- you gotta catch him in an actual misstep.

Do you really think that Peterson's claim that religions are less deadly than non-religious ideologies is supported by historic data? What about his speculations on the link between atheism and nihilism, all kosher in terms of sociology?

[gurugeorge]

I think Sam Harris came to a similar conclusion with his ideas about meditation that he adopted from Buddhism.

Yeah, I think Peterson and Harris are right to find some things of value in religion - certainly things religion has been beneficial for in the past, if not today.

It's the old "nature to be commanded must be obeyed" thing, we have religion modules, we can't (or at least most people can't) avoid having religious feeling (aka cognitive bias), the question is how to channel that instinctive urge in a good way.

A few people, highly intelligent people, are able to live with a meaningless universe, or are comfortable with not knowing lots of stuff, but most people probably do need some sort of settled framework about the Big Questions, since the kinds of devastating universal questions that merely give an intelligent person pause, and occasion to reflect on the difficulty of figuring out the truth about such problems, can completely unhinge un-agile minds. Many people find "we don't know yet" to be an anxiety-inducing answer - anxiety-inducing to the point that they can't function (either in a good way for themselves, or as cogs in the societal machine that we're all cogs in).

One really does have to let people gang their ain gait, to hell if they want to, and one has to restrict one's restricting activities on religionists to activities of theirs that impinge on others.

And meanwhile, if one looks into religion, one finds these two areas, mystical (for want of a better word) experience and mythical/visionary experience, to be quite interesting in and of themselves, and rewarding to look into. Not only does some effort in such areas reap rewards in terms of one's own self-development, we also learn more about how the mind works. (Consider that our "folk introspection" abilities may be skewing our idea of what the mental "things" are, that we want to correlate with the physical processes in the brain. Meditative introspection and work on the self of the Jungian type, and a few other viable areas of modern psychology and anthropology, all reveal that there's a lot of depth to the mind itself, and that the mind isn't quite what our sense of folk psychology tells us it is, even before we get to the question of how it is that matter could possibly produce such a a thing.

[Bhurzum]

If that was one of the thousand young of the black goat of the woods, them folks may well end up submitting - quite desperately, in fact - to a god other than allah.

[youtube][/youtube]

;)

[jet_lagg]

I recall Robert Price on his podcast ('The Bible Geek') saying that if you asked an ancient Greek "Is Aphrodite real" they would interpret the question as if you had asked "Is sexual lust real". (Or words to that effect).

Elizabeth Vandiver said much the same thing and I found it a very intriguing idea.

For some supporting anecdata, I once raged an entire day over the title of Victor Stenger's book God: The Failed Hypothesis. It was batshit lunacy to me that anyone would describe God as a "hypothesis" (I'd already abandoned Christianity, but still believed in some sort of unifying intelligent force). It would be like describing the sensation of watching a sunset as a "hypothesis". Of course, I ended up reading the book, and then with increasing despair, verifying each citation, realizing that yes, if you step back and pretend God is a hypothesis instead of a sort of living metaphor for all that is true and beautiful, then the hypothesis fails. Stenger more than anyone else is responsible for me becoming an atheist, but that first step is a doozy.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[InfraRedBucket]

Kirb,

I don't think it's enough to handwave-away Jordan Peterson as "just as bad as Nick Motte", or call him "William Lane Craig-style". Or to accuse him of sneaking religious bullshit into separation of church & state, without citing any examples.

At some point, you gotta engage with the the specific iteration Jordan Peterson is espousing... if you're refuting Apologetics 1.0 & he's running version 2.0-- you haven't landed any punches on any of his patches or updates.

By my scorekeeping-- JP's ahead on points, this-far into the debate.

==
I think Peterson stays far-enough behind the line of church & state. In the Maps of Meaning course, he seems to apply a certain standard of scientific proof to things he presents as factual. There's definitely a speculative, sci-fi aspect to his beliefs-- but when he crosses the line into conjecture, he clearly marks the departure with, "I think..." before insinuating that DNA might have a sophisticated 'playfulness' built-in to it, & it might have arrived here on solar winds, from who-knows-where/ for who-knows what purpose.

If you wanna argue there's something incompatible with the body of science in his teaching-- you gotta catch him in an actual misstep.

Do you really think that Peterson's claim that religione are less deadly than non-religious ideologies is supported by historic data? What about his speculations on the link between atheism and nihilism, all kosher in terms of sociology?

Also, somebody mentioned that Peterson said (or implied) that 20th Century ideologies have had the technology to do more damage than religion has previously. Everyone these days has more tech to potentially do damage.
Does anything think if Islamic State etc had an atom bomb or chemical weapons they wouldn't like to threaten or do damage with them?

[Service Dog]

Do you really think that Peterson's claim that religione are less deadly than non-religious ideologies is supported by historic data? What about his speculations on the link between atheism and nihilism, all kosher in terms of sociology?

I find it plausible that-- if you were to teleport Hitler or Mao or PZ Myers back to Mohammad's desert-- or to a harsh northern-european winter of black plague-- that the 20th Century ideologues might go extinct trying to implement their idea of utopia/ while the stupid old religions were sufficient for adherents to at-least survive.

I find that standard of measuring which is 'worse' to be better than your standard of measuring 'less deadly', because I don't see any utility in applying your standard over mine... and many advantages to my standard.

I don't know 'sociology'.

But Peterson's description of how atheism arrived in Russia-- seems plausible. Peterson sez Western Europe had 3 or 4 hundred years to process the idea that God Doesn't Exist & figure-out how to cope with it. Russia remained sheltered & religious... until those 400 years of atheist thought came storming-in over a period of about 10 years. The russians were in shock, they had nothing to counter the all-at-once force of the new ideas, & they went from czar to stalin, real fast.

[InfraRedBucket]

anything = anyone

[VickyCaramel]

But Peterson's description of how atheism arrived in Russia-- seems plausible. Peterson sez Western Europe had 3 or 4 hundred years to process the idea that God Doesn't Exist & figure-out how to cope with it. Russia remained sheltered & religious... until those 400 years of atheist thought came storming-in over a period of about 10 years. The russians were in shock, they had nothing to counter the all-at-once force of the new ideas, & they went from czar to stalin, real fast.

This is not an area of history I know anything about, but it doesn't sound very plausible that religion had very much to do with the Russian Revolution or the rise of Stalin? I can understand that once there was a clamp-down on the church, that would be one area of opposition which would cease to be.

[CommanderTuvok]

Ok, how many of you have put me on ignore because I said I quite liked the new Independence Day movie?

Come on, own up!

What the fucking fuck. I thought it was EVEN WORSE than Ghostbusters 3.0. Now, how many will block me for saying that?

[DrokkIt]

Jordan Peterson: 'If the old gods are dead, as Neitsche said. Then new gods are quick to swoop in. And if you thought the old god was bad, wait until the new gods get ahold of you. As we saw in the 20th Century.'

It looks like the old, tired apologist argument that religion is "inevitable" and "everyone worships something" so we might as well stick with the old religion, warts and all.

I don't think that's what he's saying at all. I've watched heaps of his lecturers since he came to attention. One thing he points out is that creation stories, which predate the written word, are packed with meaning and lessons about running societies that had to be compact and memorable to survive in an oral tradition.

Of particular relevance to the point he's making here is his analysis of the Egyptian creation story. When the old Egyptian god became old, he also became blind. This allowed chaos (Seth) to trick and dismember him and take over. Isis, the queen of the underworld then comes up to find his dick to impregnat herself and give birth to Horus. Horus, is able to challenge Seth and win. Afterwards, Horus descends to the underworld himself to find his father. He rescues his father and even gives him one of his eyes. And together, they rule Egypt as a combined entity.

What he takes from this, is that this is the way all cultures operate. All culture is really dead because it is the traditions of our ancestors. This is what university is supposed to be about. Looking at the cultural artefacts we've been left and to 'rescue our fathers' by picking the best, relevant bits, and giving them new sight with our youthful eyes.

The West is old and as a consequence, half blind. The forces of chaos are trying to dismember it and cast it into the underworld. The point he's making is that the Seth is not good, and we need our father, the old culture, we just need to give it new sight. In other words, the patriarchy does exist, but over throwing it is the worst thing we could do, given we have the option to improve it with moral progress.

That said, Peterson is a Christian, and has little time for 'New Atheists'.

I've also listened to a bunch of his lectures etc, and find them interesting.

My take-away from him on the specific issue of religion would be that someone inclined towards faith would find these ideas very useful, those of us who are indifferent don't need to think about it particularly.
His ideas about the importance of embracing meaning as a consequence of having the cultural defaults stripped away are pretty relevant I think, as is his observation that SJW-ism is faith-like and lack of there being a dominant system for individual values leaves people very open to this kind of radicalisation.

[ROBOKiTTY]

A few people, highly intelligent people, are able to live with a meaningless universe, or are comfortable with not knowing lots of stuff, but most people probably do need some sort of settled framework about the Big Questions, since the kinds of devastating universal questions that merely give an intelligent person pause, and occasion to reflect on the difficulty of figuring out the truth about such problems, can completely unhinge un-agile minds. Many people find "we don't know yet" to be an anxiety-inducing answer - anxiety-inducing to the point that they can't function (either in a good way for themselves, or as cogs in the societal machine that we're all cogs in).

That's a curious way of thinking. What evidence do you have for this claim? Now that irreligiosity and secularism are the norm in much of the west and the east, I would say that the evidence points to the exact opposite. Regular people are too caught up in the mundanity of day-to-day life to worry about the Big Questions, while it is precisely the few highly intelligent people who are reduced to compartmentalization and crippling existential angst. That's what makes them the Big Questions -- even the most intelligent people can't answer them.

[Phil_Giordana_FCD]

Ok, how many of you have put me on ignore because I said I quite liked the new Independence Day movie?

Come on, own up!

What the fucking fuck. I thought it was EVEN WORSE than Ghostbusters 3.0. Now, how many will block me for saying that?

Yeah, but you like Star Trek, so...

[Service Dog]

...most people probably do need some sort of settled framework about the Big Questions, since the kinds of devastating universal questions that merely give an intelligent person pause, and occasion to reflect on the difficulty of figuring out the truth about such problems, can completely unhinge un-agile minds. Many people find "we don't know yet" to be an anxiety-inducing answer...

I count myself among the 'unhinged'. I was with one woman for 2 decades. When she left, I lost my identity, friends, home, habits, money, expected future, trust in how the world works. When Peterson tells me I spent 2 decades building my brain into a machine designed to be That Guy/ and of course my brain structures are ill-equipped to smoothly re-engage with the world... I take comfort in the explanation.

When I was homeless, I'd go to the public library & find a lifeline to carry-on, in reading the Game Of Thrones books & compilations of Marvel comics & in the mythos of pro-wrestling history... quasi-mythological stuff. Would 'hard science' textbooks have served me as well? I don't know.

I do think indoctrination in Mein Kampf or Mao's Little Red Book or Social Justice 101/ or the Koran/ would have been worse.

When it comes to Christianity, I wonder... exactly what-kind of christian Jordan Peterson is. He makes a point of saying stories like the Serpent & Apple & Eve are much older than Christianity.

[Bhurzum]

Ok, how many of you have put me on ignore because I said I quite liked the new Independence Day movie?

Come on, own up!

What the fucking fuck. I thought it was EVEN WORSE than Ghostbusters 3.0. Now, how many will block me for saying that?

Yeah, but you like Star Trek, so...

Many years ago, whilst stationed in a post-war Bosnia, I had the misfortune of witnessing a stray dog* being hit by a speeding supply truck. The impact was brutal - the truck (laden with relief packages) was doing ~60mph - and the poor hound partially exploded upon impact. Roughly ten feet away from this was a group of local girls (hookers, junk peddlers, scroungers etc) who were congregated around a small wood fire at the edge of the MSR.

Anyway, at the instant poor Fido contacted the bumper of the truck, a massive "sheet" of blood, piss, excretia and assorted guts/gizzards sprayed out of his back end and splattered all over the nearby women. What followed was pretty disturbing - projectile vomiting, sporadic fist fighting, extremely loud cursing and swearing (in the local lingo, obviously) and periodically, seemingly at random, one or two of the women would slip and fall into the snow/slush at the side of the road.

From our vantage point - inside a "Wolf" landrover with the heating cranked to maximum - the Squadron leader (damned fine guy, awesome leader, one of the finest officers I worked with throughout my career) pointed out the similarity between the chaos unfolding before us and the series of Monty Python sketches starring a woman's guild (Aylesbury? I can't remember) reenacting various battles from history.

My point?

Even watching shit/blood soaked Bosnian hookers throwing up and beating the shit out of each other is more entertaining than Star Trek.

YMMV.



* That particular tour was most notable for the amount of canine fatalities we witnessed. Seriously, over the course of six months, I think I was a ringside spectator to the deaths of about 20 pooches. Horrible time/place for our four legged friends.

[Tigzy]

* That particular tour was most notable for the amount of canine fatalities we witnessed. Seriously, over the course of six months, I think I was a ringside spectator to the deaths of about 20 pooches. Horrible time/place for our four legged friends.

You had Lara Croft with you?? What was she like? Were her knockers as big as they are in the videogames?

[CaptainFluffyBunny]

...most people probably do need some sort of settled framework about the Big Questions, since the kinds of devastating universal questions that merely give an intelligent person pause, and occasion to reflect on the difficulty of figuring out the truth about such problems, can completely unhinge un-agile minds. Many people find "we don't know yet" to be an anxiety-inducing answer...

I count myself among the 'unhinged'. I was with one woman for 2 decades. When she left, I lost my identity, friends, home, habits, money, expected future, trust in how the world works. When Peterson tells me I spent 2 decades building my brain into a machine designed to be That Guy/ and of course my brain structures are ill-equipped to smoothly re-engage with the world... I take comfort in the explanation.

When I was homeless, I'd go to the public library & find a lifeline to carry-on, in reading the Game Of Thrones books & compilations of Marvel comics & in the mythos of pro-wrestling history... quasi-mythological stuff. Would 'hard science' textbooks have served me as well? I don't know.

I do think indoctrination in Mein Kampf or Mao's Little Red Book or Social Justice 101/ or the Koran/ would have been worse.

When it comes to Christianity, I wonder... exactly what-kind of christian Jordan Peterson is. He makes a point of saying stories like the Serpent & Apple & Eve are much older than Christianity.

Have you ever read "Gather Darkness" by Franz Leiber? It's a short novel that describes a future where religion has become an all-powerful state. Quick read, well worth it, even tho it is now a bit dated.

[CaptainFluffyBunny]

Fritz Leiber, not Franz.

[SkepticalCat]

[youtube][/youtube]

A security guard at a San Diego Chargers game is in some trouble for his actions in the above video. In his defense, the cheerleaders are really hot.

:cdc:

[Brive1987]

Double barrelled goodness - RW gets trolled by the world again while she defends freeze peach.

http://i.imgur.com/6fkqNIN.jpg

[dogen]

Kirb,

I don't think it's enough to handwave-away Jordan Peterson as "just as bad as Nick Motte", or call him "William Lane Craig-style". Or to accuse him of sneaking religious bullshit into separation of church & state, without citing any examples.

At some point, you gotta engage with the the specific iteration Jordan Peterson is espousing... if you're refuting Apologetics 1.0 & he's running version 2.0-- you haven't landed any punches on any of his patches or updates.

By my scorekeeping-- JP's ahead on points, this-far into the debate.

==
I think Peterson stays far-enough behind the line of church & state. In the Maps of Meaning course, he seems to apply a certain standard of scientific proof to things he presents as factual. There's definitely a speculative, sci-fi aspect to his beliefs-- but when he crosses the line into conjecture, he clearly marks the departure with, "I think..." before insinuating that DNA might have a sophisticated 'playfulness' built-in to it, & it might have arrived here on solar winds, from who-knows-where/ for who-knows what purpose.

If you wanna argue there's something incompatible with the body of science in his teaching-- you gotta catch him in an actual misstep.

Solar winds? From what star? The only wind which reaches the Earth is from the Sun. Sounds all Deepity to me.

[free thoughtpolice]

Davedodo007 wrote:

Fuck snopes

Bastards are even in on the bonerf00t cover up.
http://www.snopes.com/bigfoot-captured-history-channel/

[Brive1987]

PZ will address Berlin and Turkey right after he has finished his carrier-like wall of text posts on writing new lesson plans.

[katamari Damassi]

Ok, how many of you have put me on ignore because I said I quite liked the new Independence Day movie?

Come on, own up!

What the fucking fuck. I thought it was EVEN WORSE than Ghostbusters 3.0. Now, how many will block me for saying that?

I enjoyed it Phil. It's a fun B movie. Plus, Brent Spiner.