Bunkspubble!

Old subthreads
cunt
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Re: Bunkspubble!

#2041

Post by cunt »

In my experience, Jamaicans seem to have some sort of inherent assumption that they are superior to anyone else in the world (for some reason a lot of other West Indians appear to dislike them intensely).
I'd pay serious money to watch a "Shut Up And Listen" SJW talk to a real Rastafarian.

Richard Dworkins
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Re: Bunkspubble!

#2042

Post by Richard Dworkins »

At this point, is there not enough ladies here on the slymepit and elsewhere that some friendly blog network could start a "Women speak out about against "feminist" hatred in the Skeptical community."

If nothing else, it would be very amusing.

nippletwister
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Re: Bunkspubble!

#2043

Post by nippletwister »

decius wrote:I dropped this at Novella's place.
The malicious attacks on women are, more often than not, the handiwork of dedicated trolls and originate from places like encyclopedia dramatica (the evidence is overwhelming, but gets conveniently ignored when presented). They are then – equally maliciously and for sheer political gain – imputed to atheists and skeptics by certain divisive figures, who by reason of proximity with you, Steven, keep on getting a pass from skeptical scrutiny.
What you say is all very reasonable, until you turn your biased eye to the issue of feminism and of prominent “feminists”, who pretend to talk for all women in the community without having clear mandate to do so. In fact, the most eloquent pushback they’re receiving for the injection of industrial quantities of venom and slander in the community is at the hand of other women.
As an egalitarian concerned with the equal rights and respect for everyone, I’m appalled by the selective blindness on display here.

I often disagree with your perspective on issues that get brought up here, but that was a bomb of truth (obvious truth to those that have really been watching) that needed to be said. Good on ya for being so reasonable, I hope he reads it.

some guy

XMRV! Cut me a break, ERV!

#2044

Post by some guy »

ERV wrote: ... Arent we told that exclusion is part of the rampant misogyny in atheism? Excluding female skeptics from "Best atheists authors!" "Best atheist bloggers" "Best atheist podcasts" lists is sexist? Excluding females from speaker line-ups at conferences is sexist (except when Phil Plait does it)? Exclusion is one way the patriarchy keeps women down.
Wait a minute! I distinctly remember that situation. You went in front of a conference and delivered an absolutely clueless rant against XMRV, showing your utter ignorance not just of the field of virology (including your complete unfamiliarity with the methodology and tools of the field as well as the relevant literature), but also a complete lack of understanding about how science (in virtually all fields) works. Your argument boiled down to something remarkably similar to an argument from personal incredulity. (And was based on pop-press secondary sources (Huff Post? really!?)). It totally revealed what an ARROGANT, VACUOUS, and UNQUALIFIED person your were to even hold an opinion on the topic! You totally embarrassed yourself! And it prompted those knowledgable in the field to call you out.

That criticism in turn prompted your protector *MEN!* to come forward, NOT to show that you were right (e.g., by recasting your "evidence" and maybe polishing up the presentation a bit), but to try to get to the same conclusion you got to. All done so as to divert the strong criticism made against you for your failure to know what the fuck you were talking about over to one about whether the points you were trying to make were correct or not. It was hilarious how these *MEN!* piled on, with multiple posts on the topics to shift the focus from your singularly ignoble performance in an attempt to save at least some bit of your reputation.

And more over … [wait a minute: someone is speaking into my ear... ]

Okay, I've been informed that it wasn't XMRV you were talking about, it was evolutionary psychology. Fine. My points still stand, however. But in any event … [wait a minute: someone is speaking into my ear... ]

Okay, I've been informed that it wasn't you that was speaking. Or at least, not you dressed up as you, but rather probably you dressed up as someone else. Still, shows what you know. Or what you dressed up as someone else knows. (Okay, maybe just what someone else knows. (I think I go back to lurking...))

some guy

Re: XMRV! Cut me a break, ERV!

#2045

Post by some guy »

Oops! Of course this is the part of ERV's post I meant to quote in my post above.
ERV wrote: ... Thus Novella utilized the oppressive tool of exclusion when he covered the XMRV fiasco. His post went up long after my role in the XMRV-CFS take-down was complete-- so long after it was even after my role/blog was referenced in a peer-reviewed journal article, written by one of The Top Dogs in virology. And yet, despite the fact a female atheist/skeptic/blogger brought down that monster, Novella managed to exclude referencing me or my role, in any way/shape/form.

Submariner
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Re: XMRV! Cut me a break, ERV!

#2046

Post by Submariner »

some guy wrote:
ERV wrote: ... Arent we told that exclusion is part of the rampant misogyny in atheism? Excluding female skeptics from "Best atheists authors!" "Best atheist bloggers" "Best atheist podcasts" lists is sexist? Excluding females from speaker line-ups at conferences is sexist (except when Phil Plait does it)? Exclusion is one way the patriarchy keeps women down.
Wait a minute! I distinctly remember that situation. You went in front of a conference and delivered an absolutely clueless rant against XMRV, showing your utter ignorance not just of the field of virology (including your complete unfamiliarity with the methodology and tools of the field as well as the relevant literature), but also a complete lack of understanding about how science (in virtually all fields) works. Your argument boiled down to something remarkably similar to an argument from personal incredulity. (And was based on pop-press secondary sources (Huff Post? really!?)). It totally revealed what an ARROGANT, VACUOUS, and UNQUALIFIED person your were to even hold an opinion on the topic! You totally embarrassed yourself! And it prompted those knowledgable in the field to call you out.

That criticism in turn prompted your protector *MEN!* to come forward, NOT to show that you were right (e.g., by recasting your "evidence" and maybe polishing up the presentation a bit), but to try to get to the same conclusion you got to. All done so as to divert the strong criticism made against you for your failure to know what the fuck you were talking about over to one about whether the points you were trying to make were correct or not. It was hilarious how these *MEN!* piled on, with multiple posts on the topics to shift the focus from your singularly ignoble performance in an attempt to save at least some bit of your reputation.

And more over … [wait a minute: someone is speaking into my ear... ]

Okay, I've been informed that it wasn't XMRV you were talking about, it was evolutionary psychology. Fine. My points still stand, however. But in any event … [wait a minute: someone is speaking into my ear... ]

Okay, I've been informed that it wasn't you that was speaking. Or at least, not you dressed up as you, but rather probably you dressed up as someone else. Still, shows what you know. Or what you dressed up as someone else knows. (Okay, maybe just what someone else knows. (I think I go back to lurking...))
Wow. Great post. I was getting a bit angry there until someone spoke in your ear. Well done.

free thoughtpolice
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Re: Bunkspubble!

#2047

Post by free thoughtpolice »

nippletwister wrote:
decius wrote:I dropped this at Novella's place.
The malicious attacks on women are, more often than not, the handiwork of dedicated trolls and originate from places like encyclopedia dramatica (the evidence is overwhelming, but gets conveniently ignored when presented). They are then – equally maliciously and for sheer political gain – imputed to atheists and skeptics by certain divisive figures, who by reason of proximity with you, Steven, keep on getting a pass from skeptical scrutiny.
What you say is all very reasonable, until you turn your biased eye to the issue of feminism and of prominent “feminists”, who pretend to talk for all women in the community without having clear mandate to do so. In fact, the most eloquent pushback they’re receiving for the injection of industrial quantities of venom and slander in the community is at the hand of other women.
As an egalitarian concerned with the equal rights and respect for everyone, I’m appalled by the selective blindness on display here.

I often disagree with your perspective on issues that get brought up here, but that was a bomb of truth (obvious truth to those that have really been watching) that needed to be said. Good on ya for being so reasonable, I hope he reads it.
It would be interesting to see how many of the attacks on Watson from "atheists" were generated after the encyclopedia dramatica article on her was published. Ophelia might think about dropping an article there, the extra victim points she picks up could make her rich.

Gumby
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Re: Bunkspubble!

#2048

Post by Gumby »

bhoytony wrote:
Gumby wrote:
:lol:

OK, bud, whatever you say.
Oh, a smiley. Sorry, you obviously don't take yourself seriously then.
Well, I sure as hell don't take you seriously. Especially when you've admitted several times that you're just here to fart around. Not that there's anything wrong with that; it's pretty much the same for me. Here, here's another smiley for you.

:dance:

bhoytony
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Re: Bunkspubble!

#2049

Post by bhoytony »

Gumby wrote:
Well, I sure as hell don't take you seriously. Especially when you've admitted several times that you're just here to fart around. Not that there's anything wrong with that; it's pretty much the same for me. Here, here's another smiley for you.

:dance:
Correct. I'm just here to take the single fish. (do you want me to explain that for you?)

Dick Strawkins
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Re: Bunkspubble!

#2050

Post by Dick Strawkins »

free thoughtpolice wrote:
It would be interesting to see how many of the attacks on Watson from "atheists" were generated after the encyclopedia dramatica article on her was published. Ophelia might think about dropping an article there, the extra victim points she picks up could make her rich.
Watson is on record as having stated that the sexist attacks began after she made a video about FGM. She claims that some men were annoyed that she didn't treat male circumcision in the same way and showed their anger by commenting that she should be raped.
She seems to assume that these comments must be from atheists or skeptics, exactly why, I don't know.

Curiously, the attacks also began just after Watson split up from her former husband in the UK, moved back to the US and needed a long-term job.
But that's probably just a coincidence. :whistle:

another lurker
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Re: Bunkspubble!

#2051

Post by another lurker »

Gumby wrote:
bhoytony wrote:
Gumby wrote:
:lol:

OK, bud, whatever you say.
Oh, a smiley. Sorry, you obviously don't take yourself seriously then.
Well, I sure as hell don't take you seriously. Especially when you've admitted several times that you're just here to fart around. Not that there's anything wrong with that; it's pretty much the same for me. Here, here's another smiley for you.

:dance:
I take Gumby's cat, Stimpy, rather seriously. I hear she's quite dangerous!

Gumby
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Re: Bunkspubble!

#2052

Post by Gumby »

another lurker wrote: I take Gumby's cat, Stimpy, rather seriously. I hear she's quite dangerous!
She's only dangerous if you're a can of cat food.

another lurker
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Re: Bunkspubble!

#2053

Post by another lurker »

Gumby wrote:
another lurker wrote: I take Gumby's cat, Stimpy, rather seriously. I hear she's quite dangerous!
She's only dangerous if you're a can of cat food.
Or a sofa! :P

Lsuoma
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Re: Bunkspubble!

#2054

Post by Lsuoma »

bhoytony wrote:
Lsuoma wrote:
Trophy wrote:
Lsuoma, can you also respond to this stupid comment?
Fuck you all up the council.
You know you have to explain this for the Septics.
Rhyming slang - council gritter

And SURELY you don't need THAT explaining.

Reap
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Reapercussions

#2055

Post by Reap »

Shameless plug for the new blog
http://reapsowradio.com/graphics/smallr ... sions2.png
And thanks to AtheistsToday for hosting me and putting up with any future BS as a result of it, which is a certainty if the past is any indication.
Now go subscribe..please and thank you
And who 1st suggested the name? (i'm lazy )

bhoytony
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Re: Bunkspubble!

#2056

Post by bhoytony »

Lsuoma wrote: Rhyming slang - council gritter

And SURELY you don't need THAT explaining.
I think a lot of people here might not know what a council gritter is, never mind what it rhymes with.

JackSkeptic
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Re: XMRV! Cut me a break, ERV!

#2057

Post by JackSkeptic »

some guy wrote:
ERV wrote: ... Arent we told that exclusion is part of the rampant misogyny in atheism? Excluding female skeptics from "Best atheists authors!" "Best atheist bloggers" "Best atheist podcasts" lists is sexist? Excluding females from speaker line-ups at conferences is sexist (except when Phil Plait does it)? Exclusion is one way the patriarchy keeps women down.
Wait a minute! I distinctly remember that situation. You went in front of a conference and delivered an absolutely clueless rant against XMRV, showing your utter ignorance not just of the field of virology (including your complete unfamiliarity with the methodology and tools of the field as well as the relevant literature), but also a complete lack of understanding about how science (in virtually all fields) works. Your argument boiled down to something remarkably similar to an argument from personal incredulity. (And was based on pop-press secondary sources (Huff Post? really!?)). It totally revealed what an ARROGANT, VACUOUS, and UNQUALIFIED person your were to even hold an opinion on the topic! You totally embarrassed yourself! And it prompted those knowledgable in the field to call you out.

That criticism in turn prompted your protector *MEN!* to come forward, NOT to show that you were right (e.g., by recasting your "evidence" and maybe polishing up the presentation a bit), but to try to get to the same conclusion you got to. All done so as to divert the strong criticism made against you for your failure to know what the fuck you were talking about over to one about whether the points you were trying to make were correct or not. It was hilarious how these *MEN!* piled on, with multiple posts on the topics to shift the focus from your singularly ignoble performance in an attempt to save at least some bit of your reputation.

And more over … [wait a minute: someone is speaking into my ear... ]

Okay, I've been informed that it wasn't XMRV you were talking about, it was evolutionary psychology. Fine. My points still stand, however. But in any event … [wait a minute: someone is speaking into my ear... ]

Okay, I've been informed that it wasn't you that was speaking. Or at least, not you dressed up as you, but rather probably you dressed up as someone else. Still, shows what you know. Or what you dressed up as someone else knows. (Okay, maybe just what someone else knows. (I think I go back to lurking...))
Wins post of the week for me :D

acathode
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Re: Why people hate you

#2058

Post by acathode »

16bitheretic wrote:All in all though the ratio of jackasses to well behaved Halo 2 players was much lower than people like Anita Sarkeesian and all the others who want to paint all gamers as basement dwelling misogynistic, racist creeps would have you believe. I think some of the situation also really depends on the types of games you play. I know alot of the other girls and women I've encountered who play games do play alot of MMO type and fantasy role play games where things are more cooperative. I don't use headsets very often if I play games, but with stuff like the Borderlands games, where everyone operates as a team, I've never had any assholes torment me. The times I have encountered gendered insults and attacks were all in competitive type games where as I said before I don't think the people really truly hated women, they just found the quickest way to piss me off and insult based on the sole attribute about me that they had knowledge of.
This is pretty much my experience also. In competitive games like FPSes or RTSes where you're playing against other people (that you seldom meet ever again), getting them MAD by psyching and douchebaggery is something that makes you win. It can be VERY effective, and getting someone to lose it is a reward in itself if you've the one that pushed them over that edge. In non-pro situations, "anything that might work goes" often becomes the motto.

In cooperative games though, like MMOs, where you not only mostly play together against NPCs and AIs, but also the game itself focus much on building strong communities, with people you end up playing with for years, completely opposite behavior is what makes you successful. In general, the more your individual success depends on your good standing in the community, the better and more friendly the community is (which is btw why WoW nowadays is so filled with asshats, since it nowadays is so streamlined that you barely need a community to do even high end raiding).

In my experience, if women get extra flack in competitive FPS games, their situation is completely the opposite in cooperative MMOs, where I've seen countless of guilds where a large number of young boys/men are tripping over themselves to help the only girl in the guild. This can be just as bad as getting constantly harassed though, I've known a few women who keep their gender secret in MMOs just because they don't want the special treatment and changed behavior from their teammates. Sadly, I've also seen one or two guilds break apart due to drama that was largely caused by girls/women that felt entitled to this special treatment.

In general, IMO both the problem comes mainly from teenage boys or young men who've yet to learn how to interact with members of the opposite sex in situations where the "endgame" isn't your bed, and I don't think that any amount of feminism pushed into the gaming community is going to do much to solve that "problem".
Jack wrote:I worked in a warehouse many years ago with about 30 people. I was one of the few whites and I got no racist abuse at all (except some joking around which I did not care about) But the Jamaicans and West Africans were extremely racially abusive to each other and it was also a skin tone thing. The management couldn't do anything as they were scared of being called racist.
Don't you know that black people cannot be racists? Since "they are not actually working within the systematic framework of advantage created by the majority to privilege themselves", so they are not "racists", only being "prejudice"...
:roll: :roll: :roll:

Al Stefanelli
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Re: Bunkspubble!

#2059

Post by Al Stefanelli »

Cunning Punt wrote:
cunt wrote:The right to be uncivil only belongs to them though. If anyone is ever uncivil right back, they send out a dozen alerts and Myers can't scamper over fast enough to ban the offender.

http://i.imgur.com/kaGzUvk.jpg

Little babies.
Not only that, it's pube-licking-shaming.
So, I guess it's OK for them to support the use of rape as a form of punishment?

Al Stefanelli
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Re: Reapercussions

#2060

Post by Al Stefanelli »

Reap wrote:Shameless plug for the new blog
http://reapsowradio.com/graphics/smallr ... sions2.png
And thanks to AtheistsToday for hosting me and putting up with any future BS as a result of it, which is a certainty if the past is any indication.
Now go subscribe..please and thank you
And who 1st suggested the name? (i'm lazy )
Dude, you need to add 'share' buttons on that for Facefuck and Twatter.... Looks great, though!

nippletwister
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Re: Bunkspubble!

#2061

Post by nippletwister »

bhoytony wrote:
Gumby wrote:
bhoytony wrote:
Lsuoma wrote: Fuck you all up the council.
You know you have to explain this for the Septics.
Really, we "septics" are not all that fascinated with every little colloquialism that comes from across the pond, despite what some here apparently think.
I'll say it yet again. There are a lot of people on here who take me, and particularly themselves, very, very seriously. Most of them seem to be septics.

I am interested in colloquialisms, but I've never taken you seriously, and I do my best not to take myself too seriously. I could tell you were full of shit within five minutes of coming to the 'Pit, although that may be in part because you take pains to remind everyone regularly.

So, out of curiosity, what exactly do "taking the single fish" and "fuck you all up the council" mean? All the English slang I know comes from "Lock, Stock, and Two Smoking Barrels".

UnbelieveSteve
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Re: Reapercussions

#2062

Post by UnbelieveSteve »

Reap wrote:Shameless plug for the new blog
http://reapsowradio.com/graphics/smallr ... sions2.png
And thanks to AtheistsToday for hosting me and putting up with any future BS as a result of it, which is a certainty if the past is any indication.
Now go subscribe..please and thank you
And who 1st suggested the name? (i'm lazy )
BarnOwl i thinky.
viewtopic.php?p=62391#p62391

cunt
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Re: Bunkspubble!

#2063

Post by cunt »

Nippletwister calling somebody else full of shit.

nippletwister
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Re: Bunkspubble!

#2064

Post by nippletwister »

bhoytony wrote:
Lsuoma wrote: Rhyming slang - council gritter

And SURELY you don't need THAT explaining.
I think a lot of people here might not know what a council gritter is, never mind what it rhymes with.
A council gritter is someone who annoyingly grits their teeth during council meetings, and it rhymes with "apple fritter", obviously.

So, the real meaning would be that you're threatening to face-fuck somebody who seems uptight with a doughnut. Man, this slang shit is easy, even for us stoopid septics!

decius
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Re: Bunkspubble!

#2065

Post by decius »

Political activism is incompatible with science, not just with skepticism. The first victims are facts and truth, then the witch-hunts ensue.
And history tends to repeat itself.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/17/magaz ... ogist.html

Spence
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Re: Bunkspubble!

#2066

Post by Spence »

bhoytony wrote:
Lsuoma wrote: Rhyming slang - council gritter

And SURELY you don't need THAT explaining.
I think a lot of people here might not know what a council gritter is, never mind what it rhymes with.
Always referred to as "up the Gary" in my neck of the woods.

Apparently quite a popular turn of phrase in Thailand, too.

bhoytony
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Re: Bunkspubble!

#2067

Post by bhoytony »

nippletwister wrote:

I am interested in colloquialisms, but I've never taken you seriously, and I do my best not to take myself too seriously. I could tell you were full of shit within five minutes of coming to the 'Pit, although that may be in part because you take pains to remind everyone regularly.

So, out of curiosity, what exactly do "taking the single fish" and "fuck you all up the council" mean? All the English slang I know comes from "Lock, Stock, and Two Smoking Barrels".
I'm not English.

Cunning Punt
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Re: Bunkspubble!

#2068

Post by Cunning Punt »

Al Stefanelli wrote:
Cunning Punt wrote:
cunt wrote:The right to be uncivil only belongs to them though. If anyone is ever uncivil right back, they send out a dozen alerts and Myers can't scamper over fast enough to ban the offender.

http://i.imgur.com/kaGzUvk.jpg

Little babies.
Not only that, it's pube-licking-shaming.
So, I guess it's OK for them to support the use of rape as a form of punishment?
Made2heal was a Poe I believe, throwing their own words back at them.

nippletwister
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Re: Bunkspubble!

#2069

Post by nippletwister »

bhoytony wrote:
nippletwister wrote:

I am interested in colloquialisms, but I've never taken you seriously, and I do my best not to take myself too seriously. I could tell you were full of shit within five minutes of coming to the 'Pit, although that may be in part because you take pains to remind everyone regularly.

So, out of curiosity, what exactly do "taking the single fish" and "fuck you all up the council" mean? All the English slang I know comes from "Lock, Stock, and Two Smoking Barrels".
I'm not English.
That's fine. I'm still curious about the single fish.

bhoytony
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Re: Bunkspubble!

#2070

Post by bhoytony »

nippletwister wrote:
That's fine. I'm still curious about the single fish.

Pish, not a word used by the English.

debaser71
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Re: Bunkspubble!

#2071

Post by debaser71 »

Dick Strawkins wrote:
free thoughtpolice wrote:
It would be interesting to see how many of the attacks on Watson from "atheists" were generated after the encyclopedia dramatica article on her was published. Ophelia might think about dropping an article there, the extra victim points she picks up could make her rich.
Watson is on record as having stated that the sexist attacks began after she made a video about FGM. She claims that some men were annoyed that she didn't treat male circumcision in the same way and showed their anger by commenting that she should be raped.
She seems to assume that these comments must be from atheists or skeptics, exactly why, I don't know.

Curiously, the attacks also began just after Watson split up from her former husband in the UK, moved back to the US and needed a long-term job.
But that's probably just a coincidence. :whistle:
I was subbed to rkwason on youtube and I saw here response to the responses to her FGM video. In my mind that was her strike two at being a jerk face. Strike one was her "don't be a dick" nonsense. Strike three was, of course, "guys don't do that".

Anyway...carry on.

windy
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Re: Bunkspubble!

#2072

Post by windy »

acathode wrote:
Jack wrote:I worked in a warehouse many years ago with about 30 people. I was one of the few whites and I got no racist abuse at all (except some joking around which I did not care about) But the Jamaicans and West Africans were extremely racially abusive to each other and it was also a skin tone thing. The management couldn't do anything as they were scared of being called racist.
Don't you know that black people cannot be racists? Since "they are not actually working within the systematic framework of advantage created by the majority to privilege themselves", so they are not "racists", only being "prejudice"...
:roll: :roll: :roll:
That's a relief then. Otherwise something like this could have been mistaken as racism:
During his testimony Wednesday, Thandiwe suggested that his reason for even purchasing the gun he used in the shootings was to enforce beliefs he’d developed about white people during his later years as an anthropology major at the University of West Georgia.

“I was trying to prove a point that Europeans had colonized the world, and as a result of that, we see a lot of evil today,” he said. “In terms of slavery, it was something that needed to be answered for. I was trying to spread the message of making white people mend.”

He said the night before the shooting, he attended a so-called “Peace Party” intended to address his concerns about helping the black community find equal footing, but two white people were there.
:shock:

CommanderTuvok
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Re: Bunkspubble!

#2073

Post by CommanderTuvok »

Re: Novella.

Twatson obviously has him by the balls. I get the feeling Steven Novella does actually see the problem with the Creepy Clowns and their desperate attacks on people in the community. He recently defended Shermer, and he has defended TAM. However, when it comes to the crunch, he won't ever criticise Queen Bee, and now it seems he won't dare to upset the chief Baboon leaders by mentioning Abbie Smith and ERV.

Steven, seriously, GROW A PAIR and kick Twatson OFF the SGU podcast.

CommanderTuvok
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Re: Bunkspubble!

#2074

Post by CommanderTuvok »

The Slyme Pit Block Bot Watch.

26 Followers (despite much effort from Colon/Aratina, the total of new followers has increased by ONE in the last 24 hours!!!)

The Slyme Pit Block Bot Watch. Charting the phenomenal popularity of Oolon's Block Bot so you don't have to!!!

DeepInsideYourMind
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Guilt By Association?

#2075

Post by DeepInsideYourMind »

Over the past year or two I have realised that I no longer listen to or read opinions by people like Aron Ra, Justin Griffiths, Steven Novella ... not because their opinions aren't incise, objective, informational or generally of interest ... but solely because they are associated with FtB or Rebecca Watson ...

I could go and tell them on their blogs that they should relocate or choose better bed partners, but it isn't my place, so I just choose not to read or listen to them.

Is that guilt by association, or ... ?

nippletwister
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Posts: 425
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:17 pm
Location: California
Contact:

Re: Bunkspubble!

#2076

Post by nippletwister »

bhoytony wrote:
nippletwister wrote:
That's fine. I'm still curious about the single fish.

Pish, not a word used by the English.

Scot?

DeepInsideYourMind
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Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:43 pm

Re: Guilt By Association?

#2077

Post by DeepInsideYourMind »

DeepInsideYourMind wrote:Over the past year or two I have realised that I no longer listen to or read opinions by people like Aron Ra, Justin Griffiths, Steven Novella ... not because their opinions aren't incise, objective, informational or generally of interest ... but solely because they are associated with FtB or Rebecca Watson ...

I could go and tell them on their blogs that they should relocate or choose better bed partners, but it isn't my place, so I just choose not to read or listen to them.

Is that guilt by association, or ... ?
In fact, this post was inspired by seeing Aron Ra pop up with a new video in my YouTube stream and me thinking "I can't be bothered to watch him any more, his choice of company means I prefer to spend my time listening to people who can choose better friends and colleagues"

Wrong?

Za-zen
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Re: Bunkspubble!

#2078

Post by Za-zen »

CommanderTuvok wrote:Re: Novella.

Twatson obviously has him by the balls. I get the feeling Steven Novella does actually see the problem with the Creepy Clowns and their desperate attacks on people in the community. He recently defended Shermer, and he has defended TAM. However, when it comes to the crunch, he won't ever criticise Queen Bee, and now it seems he won't dare to upset the chief Baboon leaders by mentioning Abbie Smith and ERV.

Steven, seriously, GROW A PAIR and kick Twatson OFF the SGU podcast.
It is bewildering. He actually thinks watson has something. What that is? It's one of those things he feels in his bones. And hey her bullshit antics, and lack of any knowledge or talent, is because she's young ( she's not by the way Novella, that's another piece of shit you spout to justify your inexplainable support)

another lurker
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Re: Guilt By Association?

#2079

Post by another lurker »

DeepInsideYourMind wrote:
DeepInsideYourMind wrote:Over the past year or two I have realised that I no longer listen to or read opinions by people like Aron Ra, Justin Griffiths, Steven Novella ... not because their opinions aren't incise, objective, informational or generally of interest ... but solely because they are associated with FtB or Rebecca Watson ...

I could go and tell them on their blogs that they should relocate or choose better bed partners, but it isn't my place, so I just choose not to read or listen to them.

Is that guilt by association, or ... ?
In fact, this post was inspired by seeing Aron Ra pop up with a new video in my YouTube stream and me thinking "I can't be bothered to watch him any more, his choice of company means I prefer to spend my time listening to people who can choose better friends and colleagues"

Wrong?

I'm with you. I used to check FTB daily, now I don't even bother. Reasonable Doubts is about the only podcast from there that I bother with anymore.

decius
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Re: Guilt By Association?

#2080

Post by decius »

DeepInsideYourMind wrote:Over the past year or two I have realised that I no longer listen to or read opinions by people like Aron Ra, Justin Griffiths, Steven Novella ... not because their opinions aren't incise, objective, informational or generally of interest ... but solely because they are associated with FtB or Rebecca Watson ...

I could go and tell them on their blogs that they should relocate or choose better bed partners, but it isn't my place, so I just choose not to read or listen to them.

Is that guilt by association, or ... ?
Yes, it is guilt by association and unfruitful ingroup/outgroup mentality.

Personally speaking, Ra and Griffith never caught my interest, but I couldn't and wouldn't renounce Novella's contributions even if he became 100% baboon-friendly. He keeps his skeptical blogging and podcasting untainted by these unfortunate political situation.

nippletwister
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Re: Guilt By Association?

#2081

Post by nippletwister »

DeepInsideYourMind wrote:Over the past year or two I have realised that I no longer listen to or read opinions by people like Aron Ra, Justin Griffiths, Steven Novella ... not because their opinions aren't incise, objective, informational or generally of interest ... but solely because they are associated with FtB or Rebecca Watson ...

I could go and tell them on their blogs that they should relocate or choose better bed partners, but it isn't my place, so I just choose not to read or listen to them.

Is that guilt by association, or ... ?

I'll still listen to their opinions on most subjects, same as I'll listen to Phil Plait for astronomy, whether I want to "be a dick" or not. I still have a duty to check things out for myself instead of relying purely on authority, but I have no problem with giving benefit of the doubt to expertise in a given area. When it comes to anything regarding certain dishonest players in the scene, the prevalence of sexism or harassment in the greater community, the need for various social policing and policies, or the merits of feminism and some other left-leaning political topics, I can't help but see their obvious biases and presumptions, and I definitely take that into consideration.

We've all got our blind spots, I suppose, and I'll admit that I rarely go to FTB anymore unless I hear of something really interesting, as they've mostly left rationalism and science and even secularism behind, in favor of flogging their pet ideologies and shaping the discourse to suit themselves.

Za-zen
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Re: Guilt By Association?

#2082

Post by Za-zen »

DeepInsideYourMind wrote:
DeepInsideYourMind wrote:Over the past year or two I have realised that I no longer listen to or read opinions by people like Aron Ra, Justin Griffiths, Steven Novella ... not because their opinions aren't incise, objective, informational or generally of interest ... but solely because they are associated with FtB or Rebecca Watson ...

I could go and tell them on their blogs that they should relocate or choose better bed partners, but it isn't my place, so I just choose not to read or listen to them.

Is that guilt by association, or ... ?
In fact, this post was inspired by seeing Aron Ra pop up with a new video in my YouTube stream and me thinking "I can't be bothered to watch him any more, his choice of company means I prefer to spend my time listening to people who can choose better friends and colleagues"

Wrong?
Aron is another one, who i think knows it's fucked up, but keeps his gob shut for the sake of "the big game". In other words takes a shit on reality for political expediency.

decius
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Re: Bunkspubble!

#2083

Post by decius »

I should add the caveat that I wasn't pleasurably impressed by the episode told earlier by Abbie, but in the absence of an open act of hostility, Novella's reasons cannot known. So far, his faux pas can be explained by oversight as well. He should be challenged about that, but it isn't up to me to do it.

decius
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Re: Guilt By Association?

#2084

Post by decius »

Za-zen wrote:

Aron is another one, who i think knows it's fucked up, but keeps his gob shut for the sake of "the big game". In other words takes a shit on reality for political expediency.
Personal expediency as well, according to some.

free thoughtpolice
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Re: Bunkspubble!

#2085

Post by free thoughtpolice »

nippletwister wrote:
bhoytony wrote:
nippletwister wrote:
That's fine. I'm still curious about the single fish.

Pish, not a word used by the English.

Scot?
I believe the accurate term is "Oatmeal Savage". :rimshot:

bhoytony
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Re: Bunkspubble!

#2086

Post by bhoytony »

nippletwister wrote:

Scot?
Sweaty Sock

katamari Damassi
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Re: Guilt By Association?

#2087

Post by katamari Damassi »

DeepInsideYourMind wrote:Over the past year or two I have realised that I no longer listen to or read opinions by people like Aron Ra, Justin Griffiths, Steven Novella ... not because their opinions aren't incise, objective, informational or generally of interest ... but solely because they are associated with FtB or Rebecca Watson ...

I could go and tell them on their blogs that they should relocate or choose better bed partners, but it isn't my place, so I just choose not to read or listen to them.

Is that guilt by association, or ... ?
I like Grittiths, Kagin, and Darksyde, but I visit their blogs only occasionally because I don't want FfTB to get my traffic. Sometimes it's a struggle to not click on FfTB when I'm in need of lulz.

katamari Damassi
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Re: Guilt By Association?

#2088

Post by katamari Damassi »

Za-zen wrote:
DeepInsideYourMind wrote:
DeepInsideYourMind wrote:Over the past year or two I have realised that I no longer listen to or read opinions by people like Aron Ra, Justin Griffiths, Steven Novella ... not because their opinions aren't incise, objective, informational or generally of interest ... but solely because they are associated with FtB or Rebecca Watson ...

I could go and tell them on their blogs that they should relocate or choose better bed partners, but it isn't my place, so I just choose not to read or listen to them.

Is that guilt by association, or ... ?
In fact, this post was inspired by seeing Aron Ra pop up with a new video in my YouTube stream and me thinking "I can't be bothered to watch him any more, his choice of company means I prefer to spend my time listening to people who can choose better friends and colleagues"

Wrong?
Aron is another one, who i think knows it's fucked up, but keeps his gob shut for the sake of "the big game". In other words takes a shit on reality for political expediency.
That and his wife got up on a soap box and declared her fealty to the Twatson Doctrine. Kind of hard for him to nut up now without making his wife look like an ass.

Dick Strawkins
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Re: Bunkspubble!

#2089

Post by Dick Strawkins »

decius wrote:I should add the caveat that I wasn't pleasurably impressed by the episode told earlier by Abbie, but in the absence of an open act of hostility, Novella's reasons cannot known. So far, his faux pas can be explained by oversight as well. He should be challenged about that, but it isn't up to me to do it.
It could be oversight but I highly doubt it.
This was a major piece of medical science, Novella's speciality. Of course he knew about it.
You could excuse other skeptic writers who do not follow the scientific literature but not those who are experts in the field.
The XMRV story was far more interesting than a comparatively smaller skeptical story such as the bleach treatment for Crohns disease that Rhys Morgan exposed yet consider how much coverage that Rhys Morgan got compared to the silence that greeted the XMRV story.

Remember, the XMRV debacle was uncovered by the work of a skeptical blogger.
Exactly how many major medical stories directly involve skeptical bloggers, rather than are simply reported by them (second or third hand)?

No. This was a deliberate act to neglect this story and the only logical reason is that it would show an enemy of Rebecca Watson in a good light.

nippletwister
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Posts: 425
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:17 pm
Location: California
Contact:

Re: Bunkspubble!

#2090

Post by nippletwister »

decius wrote:I should add the caveat that I wasn't pleasurably impressed by the episode told earlier by Abbie, but in the absence of an open act of hostility, Novella's reasons cannot known. So far, his faux pas can be explained by oversight as well. He should be challenged about that, but it isn't up to me to do it.

Same here....I had gone to the origin of the slymepit at Abbie's blog a few times, but I was never up to speed on every aspect of the drama.

If that's an accurate description, that's kind of fucked up, and while it may be honest oversight, it may also be a symptom of the in-group/out-group and politicking bullshit that become such a pain in the ass.

Novella has done a good job of appearing neutral, and I'll give him some credit for that. I give essentially the same credit to Hemant at The Friendly Atheist- he's clearly a fairly liberal guy, and interested in promoting some feminist/social justice issues, but he's decent and smart enough to not go overboard and become the asshole he thinks he's fighting.

But this info makes me a bit suspicious of Novella's neutrality. That sucks, Abbie, and you have my sympathy.

BarnOwl
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Location: The wrong trouser of Time

Re: Bunkspubble!

#2091

Post by BarnOwl »

It's not just the American A/S conference circuit that has been infiltrated - the bullshit is crossing the Pond. From Ophelia's blog (also on PZ's):
Another upcoming event, this time in Dublin. Atheist Ireland is doing a conference called Empowering Women Through Secularism the weekend of 29-30 June 2013. I will be there.
Everybody should go to this! It will be fantastic.

Speakers will include
Ivana Bacik, Irish Senator and member of Atheist Ireland
Dan Barker, Freedom From Religion Foundation, USA
Ophelia Benson, author and commentator, USA
Ann Brusseel, Member of Flemish Parliament, Belgium
Mairin de Burca, writer and secularist, Ireland
Jane Donnelly, Education Policy Officer Atheist Ireland
Annie Laurie Gaylor, Freedom From Religion Foundation, USA
Anthea McTiernan, Editor Irish Times Ticket Magazine
PZ Myers, science professor and blogger, USA
Maryam Namazie, Council of Ex-Muslims in Britain
Taslima Nasrin, novelist and activist, Bangladesh and India
Michael Nugent, Chairperson Atheist Ireland
Nina Sankari, Polish Rationalist Association
Farhana Shakir, lawyer and legal consultant, Pakistan
Kate Smurthwaite, comedian and activist, Britain
Anne Marie Waters, One Law for All Campaign, Britain
Rebecca Watson, Skepchick network, USA
Fantastic, I tell you.
So Ophelia and Rebecca - who do what, exactly, for a living - will receive all-expense-paid trips to Ireland, to talk about what, exactly? Internetz drama? Parody twitter accounts? Hair dye? Pity-driven Paypal Accounts for Fun and Profit? The Lazy Blogger's Guide to Copypasta?

Wouldn't it make more sense to invite someone like Abbie, to talk about developing a real career in a STEM field, and about applying skepticism and scientific knowledge to expose fabricated XMRV data that were published in a high-impact journal?

DeepInsideYourMind
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Posts: 681
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Re: Guilt By Association?

#2092

Post by DeepInsideYourMind »

Za-zen wrote:
DeepInsideYourMind wrote:
DeepInsideYourMind wrote:Over the past year or two I have realised that I no longer listen to or read opinions by people like Aron Ra, Justin Griffiths, Steven Novella ... not because their opinions aren't incise, objective, informational or generally of interest ... but solely because they are associated with FtB or Rebecca Watson ...

I could go and tell them on their blogs that they should relocate or choose better bed partners, but it isn't my place, so I just choose not to read or listen to them.

Is that guilt by association, or ... ?
In fact, this post was inspired by seeing Aron Ra pop up with a new video in my YouTube stream and me thinking "I can't be bothered to watch him any more, his choice of company means I prefer to spend my time listening to people who can choose better friends and colleagues"

Wrong?
Aron is another one, who i think knows it's fucked up, but keeps his gob shut for the sake of "the big game". In other words takes a shit on reality for political expediency.
I get the "big game" approach, I really do ... but on issues like this, the cost to them of disassociating is fairly minor, and doesn't involve a direct critique of their former colleagues ... a number of others left, and my estimation of them went up.

Perhaps it is just in the Free Thinkers world this applies, but if you associate with, and therefore implicitly support, such strong opponents of free thought and rational inquiry, I can't help but feel your own rational position has been compromised.

DeepInsideYourMind
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Posts: 681
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Re: Bunkspubble!

#2093

Post by DeepInsideYourMind »

BarnOwl wrote:It's not just the American A/S conference circuit that has been infiltrated - the bullshit is crossing the Pond. From Ophelia's blog (also on PZ's):
Another upcoming event, this time in Dublin. Atheist Ireland is doing a conference called Empowering Women Through Secularism the weekend of 29-30 June 2013. I will be there.
Everybody should go to this! It will be fantastic.
<SNIP>
Wouldn't it make more sense to invite someone like Abbie, to talk about developing a real career in a STEM field, and about applying skepticism and scientific knowledge to expose fabricated XMRV data that were published in a high-impact journal?
Not surprising, Michael Nugent is a strong FTB and Skepchick supporter.

decius
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Re: Bunkspubble!

#2094

Post by decius »

Dick Strawkins wrote:
decius wrote:I should add the caveat that I wasn't pleasurably impressed by the episode told earlier by Abbie, but in the absence of an open act of hostility, Novella's reasons cannot known. So far, his faux pas can be explained by oversight as well. He should be challenged about that, but it isn't up to me to do it.
It could be oversight but I highly doubt it.
This was a major piece of medical science, Novella's speciality. Of course he knew about it.
You could excuse other skeptic writers who do not follow the scientific literature but not those who are experts in the field.
The XMRV story was far more interesting than a comparatively smaller skeptical story such as the bleach treatment for Crohns disease that Rhys Morgan exposed yet consider how much coverage that Rhys Morgan got compared to the silence that greeted the XMRV story.

Remember, the XMRV debacle was uncovered by the work of a skeptical blogger.
Exactly how many major medical stories directly involve skeptical bloggers, rather than are simply reported by them (second or third hand)?

No. This was a deliberate act to neglect this story and the only logical reason is that it would show an enemy of Rebecca Watson in a good light.
Why don't you go and kick his nuts over that?

welch
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Re: Bunkspubble!

#2095

Post by welch »

Za-zen wrote:
CommanderTuvok wrote:Re: Novella.

Twatson obviously has him by the balls. I get the feeling Steven Novella does actually see the problem with the Creepy Clowns and their desperate attacks on people in the community. He recently defended Shermer, and he has defended TAM. However, when it comes to the crunch, he won't ever criticise Queen Bee, and now it seems he won't dare to upset the chief Baboon leaders by mentioning Abbie Smith and ERV.

Steven, seriously, GROW A PAIR and kick Twatson OFF the SGU podcast.
It is bewildering. He actually thinks watson has something. What that is? It's one of those things he feels in his bones. And hey her bullshit antics, and lack of any knowledge or talent, is because she's young ( she's not by the way Novella, that's another piece of shit you spout to justify your inexplainable support)

He feels her withe his bone...heh-heh

decius
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Re: Bunkspubble!

#2096

Post by decius »

BarnOwl wrote:It's not just the American A/S conference circuit that has been infiltrated - the bullshit is crossing the Pond. From Ophelia's blog (also on PZ's):
Another upcoming event, this time in Dublin. Atheist Ireland is doing a conference called Empowering Women Through Secularism the weekend of 29-30 June 2013. I will be there.
Everybody should go to this! It will be fantastic.

Speakers will include
Ivana Bacik, Irish Senator and member of Atheist Ireland
Dan Barker, Freedom From Religion Foundation, USA
Ophelia Benson, author and commentator, USA
Ann Brusseel, Member of Flemish Parliament, Belgium
Mairin de Burca, writer and secularist, Ireland
Jane Donnelly, Education Policy Officer Atheist Ireland
Annie Laurie Gaylor, Freedom From Religion Foundation, USA
Anthea McTiernan, Editor Irish Times Ticket Magazine
PZ Myers, science professor and blogger, USA
Maryam Namazie, Council of Ex-Muslims in Britain
Taslima Nasrin, novelist and activist, Bangladesh and India
Michael Nugent, Chairperson Atheist Ireland
Nina Sankari, Polish Rationalist Association
Farhana Shakir, lawyer and legal consultant, Pakistan
Kate Smurthwaite, comedian and activist, Britain
Anne Marie Waters, One Law for All Campaign, Britain
Rebecca Watson, Skepchick network, USA
Fantastic, I tell you.
So Ophelia and Rebecca - who do what, exactly, for a living - will receive all-expense-paid trips to Ireland, to talk about what, exactly? Internetz drama? Parody twitter accounts? Hair dye? Pity-driven Paypal Accounts for Fun and Profit? The Lazy Blogger's Guide to Copypasta?

Wouldn't it make more sense to invite someone like Abbie, to talk about developing a real career in a STEM field, and about applying skepticism and scientific knowledge to expose fabricated XMRV data that were published in a high-impact journal?

Wait for the attendance to these sham events to go the same way as FTB popularity. I can hardly imagine one side not reflecting the other.
If so, it will hit them hard in the wallet, on the long run.

nippletwister
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Posts: 425
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:17 pm
Location: California
Contact:

Re: Guilt By Association?

#2097

Post by nippletwister »

katamari Damassi wrote:
DeepInsideYourMind wrote:Over the past year or two I have realised that I no longer listen to or read opinions by people like Aron Ra, Justin Griffiths, Steven Novella ... not because their opinions aren't incise, objective, informational or generally of interest ... but solely because they are associated with FtB or Rebecca Watson ...

I could go and tell them on their blogs that they should relocate or choose better bed partners, but it isn't my place, so I just choose not to read or listen to them.

Is that guilt by association, or ... ?
I like Grittiths, Kagin, and Darksyde, but I visit their blogs only occasionally because I don't want FfTB to get my traffic. Sometimes it's a struggle to not click on FfTB when I'm in need of lulz.

I've been reading Darksyde and Hank Fox since they was a part of Unscrewing the Inscrutable before they closed up shop. They're not expert in any science, or firebrand leaders of secularism, but they are both reasonable and thoughtful people who do their best to promote a reality-based worldview.

I've noticed that Darksyde has done his best to stay the hell out of the sexism wars, which is probably for the best.
Hank Fox has dipped a toe here and there, but I think the general shittiness of many of his liberal co-bloggers has kept him from embracing too much of the SJW worldview. He keeps trying new ways of getting to the issues as he sees them, but his refusal to be a giant dickbag keeps him sidelined a bit. Which may again be for the best. I'm not sure if he's being quiet out of respect for women and minorities (not wanting to try to co-opt other people's problems as the Big White Daddy), or if he sees through some of the more transparent bullshit and doesn't want to become another dishonest ideologue. Or both.

I'd love to get the less SJW-oriented of the FTB lot together and see what they REALLY think of their colleagues and the politics involved. Might be fun, but I doubt it will ever happen unless some of them get shit on personally.

windy
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Location: Tom of Finland-land

Re: Bunkspubble!

#2098

Post by windy »

CommanderTuvok wrote:Re: Novella.

Twatson obviously has him by the balls. I get the feeling Steven Novella does actually see the problem with the Creepy Clowns and their desperate attacks on people in the community. He recently defended Shermer, and he has defended TAM. However, when it comes to the crunch, he won't ever criticise Queen Bee, and now it seems he won't dare to upset the chief Baboon leaders by mentioning Abbie Smith and ERV.
It sounds like he agrees that legitimate criticisms of "specific feminists" have been made, but somehow we can't address them until all the internet trolls go home? Convenient. (He's between a rock and a hard place here, but this is just crawling deeper into that crack.)

Tigzy
Pit Art Master
Pit Art Master
Posts: 6789
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2012 6:53 am

Re: Guilt By Association?

#2099

Post by Tigzy »

another lurker wrote:
DeepInsideYourMind wrote:
DeepInsideYourMind wrote:Over the past year or two I have realised that I no longer listen to or read opinions by people like Aron Ra, Justin Griffiths, Steven Novella ... not because their opinions aren't incise, objective, informational or generally of interest ... but solely because they are associated with FtB or Rebecca Watson ...

I could go and tell them on their blogs that they should relocate or choose better bed partners, but it isn't my place, so I just choose not to read or listen to them.

Is that guilt by association, or ... ?
In fact, this post was inspired by seeing Aron Ra pop up with a new video in my YouTube stream and me thinking "I can't be bothered to watch him any more, his choice of company means I prefer to spend my time listening to people who can choose better friends and colleagues"

Wrong?
I'm with you. I used to check FTB daily, now I don't even bother. Reasonable Doubts is about the only podcast from there that I bother with anymore.
I still like reading Jon Ronson's stuff, even though he's good buds with Rebecca Watson. Not much interested in what she herself has to say though, unless she's being stupid again - otherwise, I wouldn't go to see her pop ping-pong balls out of her foof even if she was doing it for free.

Dick Strawkins
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Re: Bunkspubble!

#2100

Post by Dick Strawkins »

BarnOwl wrote:It's not just the American A/S conference circuit that has been infiltrated - the bullshit is crossing the Pond. From Ophelia's blog (also on PZ's):
Another upcoming event, this time in Dublin. Atheist Ireland is doing a conference called Empowering Women Through Secularism the weekend of 29-30 June 2013. I will be there.
Everybody should go to this! It will be fantastic.

Speakers will include
Ivana Bacik, Irish Senator and member of Atheist Ireland
Dan Barker, Freedom From Religion Foundation, USA
Ophelia Benson, author and commentator, USA
Ann Brusseel, Member of Flemish Parliament, Belgium
Mairin de Burca, writer and secularist, Ireland
Jane Donnelly, Education Policy Officer Atheist Ireland
Annie Laurie Gaylor, Freedom From Religion Foundation, USA
Anthea McTiernan, Editor Irish Times Ticket Magazine
PZ Myers, science professor and blogger, USA
Maryam Namazie, Council of Ex-Muslims in Britain
Taslima Nasrin, novelist and activist, Bangladesh and India
Michael Nugent, Chairperson Atheist Ireland
Nina Sankari, Polish Rationalist Association
Farhana Shakir, lawyer and legal consultant, Pakistan
Kate Smurthwaite, comedian and activist, Britain
Anne Marie Waters, One Law for All Campaign, Britain
Rebecca Watson, Skepchick network, USA
Fantastic, I tell you.
So Ophelia and Rebecca - who do what, exactly, for a living - will receive all-expense-paid trips to Ireland, to talk about what, exactly? Internetz drama? Parody twitter accounts? Hair dye? Pity-driven Paypal Accounts for Fun and Profit? The Lazy Blogger's Guide to Copypasta?

Wouldn't it make more sense to invite someone like Abbie, to talk about developing a real career in a STEM field, and about applying skepticism and scientific knowledge to expose fabricated XMRV data that were published in a high-impact journal?
What is PZ Myers doing at a conference entitled "Empowering Women Through Secularism"?
Look, a conference in Ireland that seeks to "empower women thought secularism" should focus on one thing - the need for womens health policies that include safe termination of pregnancy, which is currently illegal there.
Now there may be a few on the list that have some expertise in this area - and believe it or not, Ophelia, due to her previous writings could qualify here - but PZ Myers and Rebecca Watson do not. They appear to be there for the sole reason that Nugent is trying to squirm his way into the FTB fold and invited them over as a bribe.

Locked