Criticism of criticism of Islam

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jimhabegger
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Criticism of criticism of Islam

#1

Post by jimhabegger » Sat Sep 16, 2017 1:12 am

- Most or all what I've seen people calling "criticism of Islam," in media stories and Internet discussions, looks to me like camouflage for prejudices, and defamation campaigns, against Muslims.

- I see prejudice against Muslims being facilitated by racial prejudices. If people thought of Muslims as being mostly white people, I don't think that prejudices, and defamation campaigns, against Muslims, would be nearly as popular as they are.

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Re: Criticism of criticism of Islam

#2

Post by jimhabegger » Sat Sep 16, 2017 2:15 am

shoutinghorse wrote:UKIP MEP Gerard Batten said on twitter recently that if Muslims had predomnently white skin the left would be shouting from the rooftops for Islam to be shut down; and there is the crux of the matter, the colour of skin trumps everything in SJW la la land.
:o
:shock:
:rimshot:
The other side of the coin.

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Re: Criticism of criticism of Islam

#3

Post by Fegg » Sat Sep 16, 2017 2:39 am

jimhabegger wrote:- Most or all what I've seen people calling "criticism of Islam," in media stories and Internet discussions, looks to me like camouflage for prejudices, and defamation campaigns, against Muslims.

- I see prejudice against Muslims being facilitated by racial prejudices. If people thought of Muslims as being mostly white people, I don't think that prejudices, and defamation campaigns, against Muslims, would be nearly as popular as they are.
If there weren't a racist element then there would be fewer racists interested, but it might also help to move Islam into acceptable target territory so that liberal people could feel smug in their bigotry.

Do you really think that most "criticism of Roman Catholicism" in media stories and internet discussions isn't camouflage for prejudices and defamation campaigns? You can insert species of religion or lack thereof of your choice into the previous sentence.

B.

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Re: Criticism of criticism of Islam

#4

Post by jimhabegger » Sat Sep 16, 2017 4:09 am

jimhabegger wrote:- Most or all what I've seen people calling "criticism of Islam," in media stories and Internet discussions, looks to me like camouflage for prejudices, and defamation campaigns, against Muslims.

- I see prejudice against Muslims being facilitated by racial prejudices. If people thought of Muslims as being mostly white people, I don't think that prejudices, and defamation campaigns, against Muslims, would be nearly as popular as they are.
Fegg wrote:If there weren't a racist element then there would be fewer racists interested, but it might also help to move Islam into acceptable target territory so that liberal people could feel smug in their bigotry.
Maybe so.
Do you really think that most "criticism of Roman Catholicism" in media stories and internet discussions isn't camouflage for prejudices and defamation campaigns? You can insert species of religion or lack thereof of your choice into the previous sentence.
Maybe. I would need to do some browsing in some search results, before I would agree or disagree with that. Just now I did some searching, and got very few results with "criticism of Roman Catholicism." I got a few more results with "criticism of Christianity," but not nearly as many as with "criticism of Islam." From what I've seen so far, I haven't seen "criticism of Roman Catholicism," "criticism of Christianity," or "criticism of atheism," being used nearly as much as "criticism of Islam," to camouflage prejudice, and defamation campaigns.

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Re: Criticism of criticism of Islam

#5

Post by d4m10n » Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:20 am

jimhabegger wrote:Most or all what I've seen people calling "criticism of Islam," in media stories and Internet discussions, looks to me like camouflage for prejudices, and defamation campaigns, against Muslims.
Any specific examples of media stories exemplifying this phenomenon?

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Re: Criticism of criticism of Islam

#6

Post by Fegg » Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:44 am

jimhabegger wrote: Maybe. I would need to do some browsing in some search results, before I would agree or disagree with that. Just now I did some searching, and got very few results with "criticism of Roman Catholicism." I got a few more results with "criticism of Christianity," but not nearly as many as with "criticism of Islam." From what I've seen so far, I haven't seen "criticism of Roman Catholicism," "criticism of Christianity," or "criticism of atheism," being used nearly as much as "criticism of Islam," to camouflage prejudice, and defamation campaigns.
I probably shouldn't have used quotes that I didn't mean as a literal series of words.

Anti-Romanism has always been a big part of whiggery. It is sometimes hard to see because it is pervasive. For instance, until this year, I had swallowed a fair bit of the rubbish denounced by Tim O’Neill in the February 12 Serious Inquiries Only podcast.
https://historyforatheists.com/2017/02/ ... rt-hitler/
http://seriouspod.com/sio15-catholic-ch ... im-oneill/

B.

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Re: Criticism of criticism of Islam

#7

Post by jimhabegger » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:57 am

jimhabegger wrote:Most or all what I've seen people calling "criticism of Islam," in media stories and Internet discussions, looks to me like camouflage for prejudices, and defamation campaigns, against Muslims.
d4m10n wrote:Any specific examples of media stories exemplifying this phenomenon?
I did a search on Yahoo! for "criticism of Islam," and browsed through the first ten sites that came up.

Some of them were wiki articles about criticism and critics of Islam in general, with few if any examples from current media stories and Internet discussions.

Here are the other seven links that came up:
Criticism of Islam Is Not ‘Islamophobia’ – Friendly Atheist
- About what Sam Harris does, which is an example of what I mean by camouflage for prejudices, and campaigns of defamation, against Muslims.

criticism of Islam - TheReligionofPeace
- Thinly veiled camouflage for prejudices, and campaigns of defamation, against Muslims, a popular source for people promoting prejudice and animosity against Muslims, on the Internet.

The Critics of Islam Were Right: An Apology to Ayaan Hirsi
- About what Ayaan Hirsi Ali does, which is an example of what I mean by camouflage for prejudices, and campaigns of defamation, against Muslims.

What are Atheists Criticisms of Islam? - ThoughtCo
- Not an example of what I mean by by camouflage for prejudices, and campaigns of defamation, against Muslims, but I haven't seen any reference to it in media stories or Internet discussions.

Islamophobia and Criticism of Islam | Augean Stables
- Not an example of what I mean by camouflage for prejudices, and campaigns of defamation, against Muslims, but I haven't seen any reference to it in media stories or Internet discussions.

criticism of Islam | The Counter Jihad Report
- About what Ayaan Hirsi Ali does.

Why is criticism of Islam punished with death? - Quora
- Doesn't contain any specific examples of what anyone calls "criticism of Islam."

To summarize, out of the first ten results, four of them were about what people are calling "criticism of Islam" in media stories and Internet discussions, and all four of those were examples of what I mean by camouflage for prejudices, and campaigns of defamation, against Muslims.

I'm curious: Besides Sam Harris, Bill Maher, and Ayaan Hirsi Ali, are there any other specific people that anyone has seen being accused of homophobia, because of their criticism of Islam?

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Re: Criticism of criticism of Islam

#8

Post by Kirbmarc » Sat Sep 16, 2017 8:13 am

Do you really think that Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Bill Maher and Sam Harris are camouflaging prejudices and starting campaigns of defamation? Or am I reading your post wrong?

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Re: Criticism of criticism of Islam

#9

Post by Kirbmarc » Sat Sep 16, 2017 8:16 am

If you do believe that Harris, Ali and Maher are camouflaging prejudices and spreading defamation, can you point out (preferably with direct quotes) which of their claims or arguments you think constitutes a camouflage for prejudices and/or spreading defamation?

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Re: Criticism of criticism of Islam

#10

Post by jimhabegger » Sat Sep 16, 2017 8:34 am

Kirbmarc, I'll answer your questions later, but now I just want to revise the question that I asked in my last post.

Besides Harris, Ali, and Maher, has anyone seen any other particular person's views being called "criticism of Islam," in media stories and Internet discussions?

Also, I want to say that
- I think there's a lot in Islam that needs to be criticized.
- I don't agree with calling people "homophobes," or calling things that people say and do, "homophobia,"
- I don't think that everything that anyone says against Islam, in Internet discussions, is being used to camouflage prejudices, and campaigns of defamation, against Muslims.

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Re: Criticism of criticism of Islam

#11

Post by Kirbmarc » Sat Sep 16, 2017 8:53 am

jimhabegger wrote:Kirbmarc, I'll answer your questions later, but now I just want to revise the question that I asked in my last post.

Besides Harris, Ali, and Maher, has anyone seen any other particular person's views being called "criticism of Islam," in media stories and Internet discussions?

Also, I want to say that
- I think there's a lot in Islam that needs to be criticized.
- I don't agree with calling people "homophobes," or calling things that people say and do, "homophobia,"
- I don't think that everything that anyone says against Islam, in Internet discussions, is being used to camouflage prejudices, and campaigns of defamation, against Muslims.
I think you mean "Islamophobia", not "homophobia". It's probably an auto-correct issue.

To answer your question, googling "Dawkins criticism of islam" gives you these results:

https://i.imgur.com/JgUeeuC.png

Googling "Ali Rizvi criticism of islam" gives you these results:

https://i.imgur.com/5COdmmq.png

Googling "Lalo Dagach criticism of islam" gives you these results:

https://i.imgur.com/h4baIGE.png

Etc. Etc.

So it seems that the expression "criticism of islam" is used both by, and to define the opinions of, people who are critical of islam.

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Re: Criticism of criticism of Islam

#12

Post by free thoughtpolice » Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:03 am

I have noticed that some muslims, notably Sunni religious leaders have some anti-bahai viewpoints.
https://islamqa.info/en/71346
There is another fatwa issued by the Egyptian Daar al-Ifta’ in 1968 CE, in which it says: Whoever embraces the Baha’i religion is an apostate from the religion of Islam, and the ruling on the apostate in Islam is that he should be asked to repent and Islam should be presented to him, and his doubts should be discussed if he has any. If he repents, all well and good, otherwise he should be executed according to sharee’ah. End quote from Fataawa Daar al-Ifta’ (6/2138).

In 2003 CE, the Islamic Research Council in al-Azhar issued a fatwa in which it says: The Baha’i school of thought and its ilk are a lethal intellectual epidemic which the state must to its utmost to eradicate.
Given attitudes like this in mainstream islam is it possible some bahai may fear islam and would that count as islamophobia?

Also, some muslims seem to think that bahai is a dangerous cult:
In 2003 CE, the Islamic Research Council in al-Azhar issued a fatwa in which it says: The Baha’i school of thought and its ilk are a lethal intellectual epidemic which the state must to its utmost to eradicate.

Shaykh Ibraaheem al-Fayyoomi, the head of the Islamic Research Committee, confirmed that the Baha’is are a sect that is beyond the pale of Islam and that has rebelled against Islam, and it is one of the most dangerous forces that are opposed to Islam. It developed under the care of the Zionist colonialists and is still supported by the enemies of Islam. The Baha’is have a project called “the political project against the Muslim ummah.” Their primary aim is to strike against Islam and create political and spiritual instability in Muslim societies. They also reject many verses of the Qur’aan because they believe that the Muslims have distorted them. They also reject Hajj and want to destroy the Ka’bah and distribute its rubble throughout the world.
Would you regard these folks as bahaiophobes? :think:

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Re: Criticism of criticism of Islam

#13

Post by Kirbmarc » Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:10 am

free thoughtpolice wrote:I have noticed that some muslims, notably Sunni religious leaders have some anti-bahai viewpoints.
https://islamqa.info/en/71346
There is another fatwa issued by the Egyptian Daar al-Ifta’ in 1968 CE, in which it says: Whoever embraces the Baha’i religion is an apostate from the religion of Islam, and the ruling on the apostate in Islam is that he should be asked to repent and Islam should be presented to him, and his doubts should be discussed if he has any. If he repents, all well and good, otherwise he should be executed according to sharee’ah. End quote from Fataawa Daar al-Ifta’ (6/2138).

In 2003 CE, the Islamic Research Council in al-Azhar issued a fatwa in which it says: The Baha’i school of thought and its ilk are a lethal intellectual epidemic which the state must to its utmost to eradicate.
Given attitudes like this in mainstream islam is it possible some bahai may fear islam and would that count as islamophobia?

Also, some muslims seem to think that bahai is a dangerous cult:
In 2003 CE, the Islamic Research Council in al-Azhar issued a fatwa in which it says: The Baha’i school of thought and its ilk are a lethal intellectual epidemic which the state must to its utmost to eradicate.

Shaykh Ibraaheem al-Fayyoomi, the head of the Islamic Research Committee, confirmed that the Baha’is are a sect that is beyond the pale of Islam and that has rebelled against Islam, and it is one of the most dangerous forces that are opposed to Islam. It developed under the care of the Zionist colonialists and is still supported by the enemies of Islam. The Baha’is have a project called “the political project against the Muslim ummah.” Their primary aim is to strike against Islam and create political and spiritual instability in Muslim societies. They also reject many verses of the Qur’aan because they believe that the Muslims have distorted them. They also reject Hajj and want to destroy the Ka’bah and distribute its rubble throughout the world.
Would you regard these folks as bahaiophobes? :think:
You can bet your ass that a lot of muslim thought leaders hate the Baha'i religion. Also note the muslim obsession with seeing "Zionism" (Jews) everywhere.

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Re: Criticism of criticism of Islam

#14

Post by free thoughtpolice » Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:39 am

Kirbmarc wrote:
You can bet your ass that a lot of muslim thought leaders hate the Baha'i religion. Also note the muslim obsession with seeing "Zionism" (Jews) everywhere.
In spite of being at each others throats for the past 1400 years, sunni and shi'ite at least have hatred of the bahai and the jooz in common.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mona_Mahmudnizhad
Mona Mahmudnizhad (Persian: مونا محمودنژاد‎‎, September 10, 1965 – June 18, 1983) was an Iranian Bahá'í who, in 1983, together with nine other Bahá'í women, was sentenced to death and hanged in Shiraz, Iran because of her membership in the Bahá'í Faith.[1][2][3] The official charges ranged from “misleading children and youth” because she was teaching children who had been expelled from school for their beliefs and serving in an orphanage, to being a "Zionist" because the Bahá'í World Centre is located in Israel.[4]

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Re: Criticism of criticism of Islam

#15

Post by jimhabegger » Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:43 am

Kirbmarc wrote:Do you really think that Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Bill Maher and Sam Harris are camouflaging prejudices and starting campaigns of defamation? Or am I reading your post wrong?
They might not be prejudiced themselves, and I don't think that they've started any campaigns of defamation, themselves. I think that they're prostituting themselves (No offense intended, Steersman, see meaning #2 at https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/prostitute) by selling camouflage for prejudices, and defamation campaigns, against Muslims. Until now I wss thinking that that's all they're doing when they talk about Islam, but after watching a video of an interview with Ali, I've changed my mind. I don't think any more that all they're doing, or even most of what they're doing, when they talk about Islam, is selling camouflage, but I do think that some of it is. With Ali, it's very subtle. She seasons what she says with occasional sweeping, unqualified, incriminating statements about Islam and Muslims. She looks to me now like she's playing both sides, though possibly not very successfully in the counterfeit social justice camp.

What I've personally seen Harris and Maher doing, myself, that looks to me like selling camouflage for prejudices, and defamation campaigns, against Muslims, was in the episode of Maher's TV show with him and Ben Affleck.
Kirbmarc wrote:If you do believe that Harris, Ali and Maher are camouflaging prejudices and spreading defamation, can you point out (preferably with direct quotes) which of their claims or arguments you think constitutes a camouflage for prejudices and/or spreading defamation?
If you still would like me to, I'll go through some of their writings and talks, to find some examples, but it might take some time.

What I mean by camouflage for prejudices, and defamation campaigns, against Muslims, is sweeping, unqualified generalizations about Islam and Muslims, that paint most or all true Muslims everwhere as dangerous, and/or accomplices in outrageous things that people do in the name of Islam.

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Re: Criticism of criticism of Islam

#16

Post by jimhabegger » Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:11 am

Kirbmarc wrote:I think you mean "Islamophobia", not "homophobia".
Yes.
It's probably an auto-correct issue.
No, it was an actual blunder.

Thank you for those names of people whose views have been called "criticism of Islam."

I think that anyone who continually criticizes Islam, without ever saying anything about campaigns of defamation against Muslims, other than to deny their existence or to excuse them, is selling camouflage for them.

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Re: Criticism of criticism of Islam

#17

Post by jimhabegger » Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:10 pm

I don't think that the camouflage that Harris is selling, is only for anti-Muslim prejudices. I also think that the popularity of his talks and writings about religion, God, and atheism, has been at least partly because they've helped excuse and camouflage anti-religious prejudices and animosities. The same applies to the talks and writings of the other three Horsemen. One possible difference I see is that in their criticisms of religion in general, and of Christianity in particular, they might have been doing a lot more good, and a lot less harm, than they've been doing with their criticisms of Islam. Their criticisms of religion in general, and of Christianity in particular, might have done a lot to help a lot of people who have been oppressed by religion. Their criticisms of Islam have mostly served to help excuse and camouflage massive murderous global campaigns of plundering and pillaging, and discrimination and hostilities against Muslims in Europe and North America.

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Re: Criticism of criticism of Islam

#18

Post by free thoughtpolice » Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:39 pm

Jim wrote:
Their criticisms of religion in general, and of Christianity in particular, might have done a lot to help a lot of people who have been oppressed by religion. Their criticisms of Islam have mostly served to help excuse and camouflage massive murderous global campaigns of plundering and pillaging, and discrimination and hostilities against Muslims in Europe and North America.
I know. Sam Harris was cheering on ISIS when they were taking Yazidi sex slaves, robbing banks, religious antiquities, taking hostages, using civilians as human shields.
No wait. He was actually talking out against it.
Are there secret genocide campaigns against muslims in europe and north america or elsewhere for that matter that isn't in the news or else WTF are you talking about?
I might add that I've never heard Sam Harris ask for the death of bahai unlike the consensus of muslim scholars.

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Re: Criticism of criticism of Islam

#19

Post by jimhabegger » Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:26 pm

I've revised my view of the criticism of Islam that I've seen in media stories and Internet discussions. Maybe most of it is not excuses and camouflage for prejudice and defamation campaigns. I still think that the excuses and camouflage for prejudices intertwined with it are what make it popular in some circles, and unpopular in others. Otherwise, I don't think it would get any attention at all, from anyone.

However that may be, I think it's possible for a person to have other reasons for objecting to some kinds of criticism of Islam, besides wanting to repress criticism of Islam. My reason for objecting to some kinds of criticism of Islam, is because of the excuses and camouflage for prejudices and defamation campaigns that I see being intertwined with them. Besides reinforcing anti-Muslim propaganda, it gives criticism of Islam a bad name.

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Re: Criticism of criticism of Islam

#20

Post by jimhabegger » Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:26 am

I'm starting to have a little bit of a paradigm shift here ...

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Re: Criticism of criticism of Islam

#21

Post by jimhabegger » Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:00 am

I'm starting to have a more sympathetic view of some people accusing some other people of trying to repress criticism of Islam.

I've been looking for examples of criticism of Islam that is not intertwined with excuses and camouflage for prejudices and campaigns of defamation, and I haven't found any. Then I was thinking that none of that is any excuse for the reckless allegations of islamophobia and racism that I've been seeing. Then, I realized that the way I've been thinking about the phrase "criticism of Islam," is another example of how I've been trying to hold back the evolution of language. Bringing myself up to date in those terms, the allegations of islamophobia and racism that I've seen do look to me like people trying to repress criticism of Islam.

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Re: Criticism of criticism of Islam

#22

Post by jimhabegger » Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:37 am

I'm thinking now that everything I've been saying about criticism of Islam applies also to defense of Islam, maybe even more. The things that people are saying and doing against criticism of Islam might be doing more to perpetuate, and even intensify, anti-Muslim animosities, more than any criticism of Islam ever could.

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