The Refuge of the Toads

[Tapir]

And what value do our rights as citizens have in a culture increasingly ruled by snap judgments and by regulations that are easily rewritten to suit changing political interests?

You mean like these, Melissa?

University of Missouri Demands

By #ConcernedStudent1950:

1. We demand that University of Missouri System President, Tim Wolfe, writes a hand-written apology to Concerned Student 1-9-5-0 demonstrators and holds a press conference in the Mizzou Student Center reading the letter. In the letter and at the press conference, Tim Wolfe must acknowledge his white privilege, recognize that systems of oppression exits, and provide a verbal commitment to fulfilling Concerned Student 1-9-5-0 demands. We want Tim Wolfe to admits his gross negligence, allowing his driver to hit one of the demonstrators, consenting to the physical violence of bystanders, and lastly refusing to intervene when Columbia Police Department used excessive force with demonstrators.

2. We demand the immediate removal of Tim Wolfe as UM system president. After his removal, a new amendment to thd UM system policies must be established to have all future UM system president and Chancellor positions be selected by a collective of students, staff, and faculty of diverse backgrounds.

3. We demand that the University of Missouri meets the Legion of Black Collegians’ demands that were presented in the 1969 for the betterment of the black community.

4. We demand that the University of Missouri creates and enforces comprehensive racial awareness and inclusion curriculum throughout all campus departments and units, mandatory for all students, faculty, staff and administration. This curriculum must be vetted, maintained, and overseen by a board comprised of students, staff and faculty of color.

5. We demand that by the academic year 2017-18, the University of Missouri increases the percentage of black faculty and staff members campus-wide by 10 percent.

6. We demand that the University of Missouri composes a strategic 10-year plan on May, 1 2016 that will increase retention rates for marginalized students, sustain diversity curriculum and training, and promote a more safe and inclusive campus.

7. We demand that the University of Missouri increases funding and resources for the University of Missouri Counseling Center for the purpose of hiring additional mental health professionals, particularly those of color, boosting mental health outreach and programming across campus, increasing campus-wide awareness and visibility of the counseling center, and reducing lengthy wait times for prospective clients.

8. We demand that the University of Missouri increases funding, resources and personnel for the social justice centers on campus for the purpose of hiring additional professionals, particularly those of color, boosting outreach and programming across campus and increasing campus-wide awareness and visibility.

You need to get out, Melissa.

[Shatterface]

My favorite part:

But I do not understand the widespread impulse to shame those whose best intentions unfortunately result in imperfect actions. What would our world be like if no one ever took a chance? What if everyone played it safe?...

...While I continue to fight the MU Board of Curators’ decision to terminate my employment without due process and in violation of university policy, I am also working to come to terms with how a few captured moments of imperfection could eclipse 12 years of excellence.

You fuck one goat and suddenly you're a goat-fucker.

And 12 years of excellence? Studying Twilight fandom?

[paddybrown]

What I find interesting here is that the perspective of most people is that SJWs lost in atheism.

In my view they won.

They destroyed most major communities and a lot of the major websites (rational wiki, FtB, etc) and these places haven't come back to life.

Only the big name atheists - the Dawkinses, Harrisses and Alis of the world - are really able to throw shit back at these people. The local communities in my area and probably lots of others are overtaken with SJWs. If we'd won in this community, we wouldn't all be in this forum talking shit but be back in the community.

The push back came too fucking late.

Atheism and skepticism is rotten and it won't make a come back in any valuable shape.

True. SJWs don't make anything, they just destroy what others have made. It seems like most of the big cons and events in America are dead thanks the SJW infiltration. They've destroyed the Hugo awards, they've destroyed the Angouleme comics festival. It's what they do. Nobody wants to go to an event where they have to walk on eggshells.

As far as representation of woman is concerned, we're going backwards. Dr Johnson is supposed to have said "a woman preaching is like a dog walking on his hind legs. It is not done well; but you are surprised to find it done at all." That seems to be our attitude to women doing nearly anything - it's not about how good it is, it's just "she's doing x - and she's a girl!" Which does no favours to women who are good at x.

There are exceptions. DC's Vertigo imprint used to publish a comic called Northlanders, about vikings. I read the first few issues, lost interest, dropped it. Picked it up again after they gave one issue heavy promotion based on how good the artwork was. They mentioned the artist's name was Fiona Staples, but they didn't make a big deal out of her sex. They didn't need to - she's brilliant. Seriously: does this need any special pleading?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_oIx2hC_7SEs/T ... /web03.jpg

[Aneris]

Ah so. Though you might consider using a smiley to telegraph ahead your intent. Otherwise it kind of looks like a post hoc rationalization.

oh sweet god

People should not use “post hoc rationalization”. It became fashionable among atheists, rationalists or skeptics, but it is wrong. Rationalization is always post hoc, after the fact.

[screwtape]

Apparently you're supposed to fuck them in the ear.

So is that aural sex?

=

Since female octopi have ovaries, they are women (per Steersman)

and

Since aural sex isn't really sex (per Bill Clinton)

PZ can say "I did not have sex with that woman" and actually mean it.

[Brive1987]

Do we like this format?

Im not so sure.

http://www.tiki-toki.com/timeline/entry ... The-Orbit/

You can click on stories etc

http://i.imgur.com/fGvy35j.png

[Dick Strawkins]

Do we like this format?

Im not so sure.

http://www.tiki-toki.com/timeline/entry ... The-Orbit/

You can click on stories etc

http://i.imgur.com/fGvy35j.png

It's a bit guitar hero-ish. :shifty:

[Brive1987]

Tiki tiki - your idea! ;) But you can limit bands and add images

[Brive1987]

This is a best practice example. Not mine.

http://www.tiki-toki.com/timeline/entry ... London-3D/

[blitzem]

So, you appear to be a fellow traveler. I have posted this one before but to as I recall no response. My number one favorite in the genre is follows. To me this version was better than any other I have heard including the original by A.R.Rahman himself.

[youtube]Pam8tXa6pkM[/youtube]

I thought that the movie was pretty good too, despite omitting some significant historical facts. But eh, was supposed to be a love story.

That was fantastic, Andrew. I must have missed it the last time you posted it. What are they singing about?

[Dick Strawkins]

Tiki tiki - your idea! ;) But you can limit bands and add images

I like the program, but I think they must have a layout that doesn't look like Guitar Hero (at least they did the last time I used it!)

I prefer viewing the timeline in the horizontal direction rather than in both horizontal and vertical.

[Ape+lust]

Do we like this format?

Im not so sure.

http://www.tiki-toki.com/timeline/entry ... The-Orbit/

You can click on stories etc

http://i.imgur.com/fGvy35j.png

It's not bad, easy enough to figure out quickly. I like that you can toggle to 2D at the bottom left if you don't like the Mario Kart navigation.

[blitzem]

Actually... I've been watching Daredevil season 2 and it's terrifying how fiscally irresponsible they are.

They say they're broke all the time... and then buy coffees. Or go out for a dinner. It's fucking insane. I find it really hard not to freak out about it. My husband says it's normal for Americans to live on their credit cards but honestly... what is the shit is the shit.

Thanks for mentioning Banshee. I had a look at the first episode and I like it. It also led me to Blindspot which I have been enjoying. Not having a TV sometimes I miss the good ones. Cheers.

[VickyCaramel]

What I find interesting here is that the perspective of most people is that SJWs lost in atheism.

In my view they won.

They destroyed most major communities and a lot of the major websites (rational wiki, FtB, etc) and these places haven't come back to life.

Only the big name atheists - the Dawkinses, Harrisses and Alis of the world - are really able to throw shit back at these people. The local communities in my area and probably lots of others are overtaken with SJWs. If we'd won in this community, we wouldn't all be in this forum talking shit but be back in the community.

The push back came too fucking late.

Atheism and skepticism is rotten and it won't make a come back in any valuable shape.

It is hard to disagree, however I am not really sure it is that important to atheism when you look at what the Atheist community actually was. It wasn't the community which was making progress, it was individuals from Richard Dawkins to Thunderf00t. I am not sure that a bunch of atheists having a conference actually ever recruited anybody. I really doubt blogs ever did too much because they were preaching to the converted. It takes effort to go read a blog.

I still say that what is making the difference is young people, who spend their lives on the internet are getting into arguments over religion. Rather than make their own arguments, they jump from Youtube video to Youtube video. Young people hate being wrong, the hate being seen as uncool, they hate being laughed at -- which is why videos like "Why people laugh at creationists" probably did more damage to theism than even anything Dawkins did, and while not my cup of tea, the Amazing Atheist is probably an even more potent weapon.
I am not saying millions of teenagers have been converted by watching this stuff, but enough have, to be out there saying, "You don't believe in god do you? That's so lame". Peer pressure is mighty powerful stuff.

The problem now is that atheists are talking about SJWs rather than putting out new atheist content. But even that isn't the end of the world as the old content is still out there for those willing to look, it just won't get shared as much on social media like facebook where it will challenge people. So the old content will be used reactively rather than new content being shared pro-actively.

Scepticism does seem to be a different kettle of fish. I am seeing woo on my twitter feed, and when I google to see if anyone has debunked it, there is nothing despite most of it being really easy to debunk. If anybody is still doing tear-downs of alien skulls and the latest biblical archaeology, it isn't easy to find.

With the rise of the right in reaction to social justice, climate change denial seems to be making a comeback. We are allied with Breitbart and fucking Infowars now! There has been something of a flap promoting liquid sodium thorium reactors, which I have tried to find out about -- i am still clueless. And e-cigarettes/vaping has been a big issue for at least three years, which according to the real science could save a billion lives, but has faced a deluge of black propaganda from the pharmaceutical and anti-smoking industry. If the sceptics community has been active on any of these issues, it hasn't crossed my desk.

[Ape+lust]

For whatever reason, Zvan was joking about going pantless where people are eating. Flame-seared steaks and Zvan's fly-blown caboose, what a wonderful pairing. Thanks, Stephanie.

http://imgur.com/qx5SgES.png

[Oglebart]

As far as representation of woman is concerned, we're going backwards. Dr Johnson is supposed to have said "a woman preaching is like a dog walking on his hind legs. It is not done well; but you are surprised to find it done at all." That seems to be our attitude to women doing nearly anything - it's not about how good it is, it's just "she's doing x - and she's a girl!" Which does no favours to women who are good at x.

It's impossible for me to read that and not hear Johnson having the voice of Robbie Coltrane.

[youtube]hOSYiT2iG08[/youtube]

[welch]

Actually... I've been watching Daredevil season 2 and it's terrifying how fiscally irresponsible they are.

They say they're broke all the time... and then buy coffees. Or go out for a dinner. It's fucking insane. I find it really hard not to freak out about it. My husband says it's normal for Americans to live on their credit cards but honestly... what is the shit is the shit.

It's a limitation of the writing. They put themselves in a logical hole with the "OMG BROKE" concept. Shit, the office phones they use are around $200 a pop. But then again, it's a superhero television show. they're always going to ignore inconvenient logic.

[welch]

It's a joke.

Ah so. Though you might consider using a smiley to telegraph ahead your intent. Otherwise it kind of looks like a post hoc rationalization.

oh sweet god

You knew perfectly well what would happen.

[VickyCaramel]

VickyCaramel said:

Well in that case I don't know what you tried to imply. Unless you are arguing that there is actually some sensible justification for a life of crime, and other than starvation here is good reason to be breaking into old ladies homes, then i really don't know what your point is.

I think it's quite possible that, given the state of the world, there very well might be a sensible argument for being a thief. Maybe. But that would be a long discussion with a lot of back and forth.

No, it would be a very short discussion which begins and ends with, "How would you like it if somebody did it to you?"

Which by strange coincidence, Sargon has just made a video about.

[youtube]GtZhyyfREQQ[/youtube]

[Oglebart]

2 new Witches of the Week in the tennis world, Novak Djokovic says men should earn more than women!! The horror!!

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/tenn ... 43696.html

[welch]

Melissa Click tells her side of the story to the WaPo (tl:dr "I had a lot on my plate, it was a matter for my conscience and, after all, doesn't everyone make mistakes? Oh and Missou didn't really have guidelines for this so it's actually kind of their fault, if you think about it.")

https://archive.is/dPnrN

My favorite part:

But I do not understand the widespread impulse to shame those whose best intentions unfortunately result in imperfect actions. What would our world be like if no one ever took a chance? What if everyone played it safe?...

...While I continue to fight the MU Board of Curators’ decision to terminate my employment without due process and in violation of university policy, I am also working to come to terms with how a few captured moments of imperfection could eclipse 12 years of excellence.

But beyond my specific circumstances, I believe this situation raises broader cultural, ethical, and legal questions about how surveillance and social media significantly impact the terrain of public engagement.
Whose interests are served when our drive to combat societal imperfections is defeated by fears of having our individual imperfections exposed?

And what value do our rights as citizens have in a culture increasingly ruled by snap judgments and by regulations that are easily rewritten to suit changing political interests?

Tell it to Tim Hunt and Matt Taylor.

We should all be concerned about the larger issues my situation raises.

I don’t want to live in a world where citizens are too afraid of public scorn to take a chance. Do you?

I wish I could find a better quote/paraphrase to demonstrate their bullshit, but the one from "Gone With The Wind" still works so well:

She's like a thief about to be hung for stealing. She's not all that sad she stole other people's stuff, but she is terribly, terribly sad she got caught.

Also, what's the phrase SJWs love to shout as they curbstomp their latest targets? Oh yes: "Words have consequences". Well madam, your words ALSO have consequences, and the mob you so gleefully participated in when you were on the side of "right" is no longer as much fun when the knives are sharpened for you.

[feathers]

You need to get out, Melissa.

She is, she is.

[Pitchguest]

Melissa Click tells her side of the story to the WaPo (tl:dr "I had a lot on my plate, it was a matter for my conscience and, after all, doesn't everyone make mistakes? Oh and Missou didn't really have guidelines for this so it's actually kind of their fault, if you think about it.")

https://archive.is/dPnrN

My favorite part:

But I do not understand the widespread impulse to shame those whose best intentions unfortunately result in imperfect actions. What would our world be like if no one ever took a chance? What if everyone played it safe?...

...While I continue to fight the MU Board of Curators’ decision to terminate my employment without due process and in violation of university policy, I am also working to come to terms with how a few captured moments of imperfection could eclipse 12 years of excellence.

But beyond my specific circumstances, I believe this situation raises broader cultural, ethical, and legal questions about how surveillance and social media significantly impact the terrain of public engagement.
Whose interests are served when our drive to combat societal imperfections is defeated by fears of having our individual imperfections exposed?

And what value do our rights as citizens have in a culture increasingly ruled by snap judgments and by regulations that are easily rewritten to suit changing political interests?

Tell it to Tim Hunt and Matt Taylor.

We should all be concerned about the larger issues my situation raises.

I don’t want to live in a world where citizens are too afraid of public scorn to take a chance. Do you?

I wish I could find a better quote/paraphrase to demonstrate their bullshit, but the one from "Gone With The Wind" still works so well:

She's like a thief about to be hung for stealing. She's not all that sad she stole other people's stuff, but she is terribly, terribly sad she got caught.

Also, what's the phrase SJWs love to shout as they curbstomp their latest targets? Oh yes: "Words have consequences". Well madam, your words ALSO have consequences, and the mob you so gleefully participated in when you were on the side of "right" is no longer as much fun when the knives are sharpened for you.

Also from Gone With The Wind:

"Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn."

[Dick Strawkins]

For whatever reason, Zvan was joking about going pantless where people are eating. Flame-seared steaks and Zvan's fly-blown caboose, what a wonderful pairing. Thanks, Stephanie.

http://imgur.com/qx5SgES.png

I guess she was trying to make a joke about the name of the restaurant meaning it was actually a strip club and that she would play up to that image.

This whole thing about SJW feminists being sex-work-positive has always confused me. They never seem to treat displays of heterosexual attraction (at least when talking about the desires of men) as anything other than some archaic throwback that will eventually be disposed of.
Straight women in hookup culture? You go girl, take control of your sexuality!
Straight men in hookup culture? Ugh, you entitled creep. You should be ashamed!

The whole sex-worker positive thing seems to be bolted on to the movement due to the fact that so many transgendered women are involved in this line of work, and so to be against sex work would be seen as anti-trans.
It has led to this weird Swedish-model style viewing of sex work by SJWs - sex work is fine and respectable for the sex worker herself- but a straight cis-man is doing something very bad if he engages a sex worker (unless, of course, that sex worker is trans).

[Scented Nectar]

*snip*
People who do transition gain respect for their choices partly out of the sheer bravery of doing so - gender reassignment is a serious and stressful business, so the least we can do for people like that is respect their personal pronouns.*snip*

Well fuck that. Why do I have to respect the personal pronouns of someone who has either had their cock and balls cut off and a couple of silicon bags fitted upstairs, or who has had their funbags thrown in a bin and a dildo stuck onto their mons pubis?

What about people who truly believe that they have a limb which doesn't belong to them? Should they be allowed to have a surgical team remove it? Wasn't there some story remarked upon at the Pit a few years ago about a chick who cut off her toes because she didn't like them? It's fucking ridiculous.

First her toe, and then her whole lower leg and foot. She guest blogged on one the FTBer's blog a few times. I think it was JT Eberhard. Her video channel is at http://www.youtube.com/user/Ziztur/videos , but she's taken down all the ones about her own leg removal. She mentioned somewhere that she was a bit worried that they would consider her 'accidents' were intentional and that she wouldn't qualify for whatever financial benefits. She strongly hinted though, that it was intentional. She had a video with her making a prosthetic leg out of legos, and I think at least one other video. They are not showing on her channel any more. At first she chopped off a toe and then her whole lower leg. One of those was an industrial machine 'accident'.

[ffs]

BASTARD EDIT BUTTON!!!! You're...fucking you're

You're fucking your what?

[deLurch]

It is hard to disagree, however I am not really sure it is that important to atheism when you look at what the Atheist community actually was. It wasn't the community which was making progress, it was individuals from Richard Dawkins to Thunderf00t. I am not sure that a bunch of atheists having a conference actually ever recruited anybody. I really doubt blogs ever did too much because they were preaching to the converted. It takes effort to go read a blog.

From a US perspective, I disagree.

Right before this started there was a push to put up billboards inviting atheists to their local group under whatever title or umbrella group they were under. In parts of the US, admitting to being an atheist is synonymous with being a devil worshiper. Atheists pretty much have no shot of getting elected to government positions. If you work for a small company, you can be legally fired for being an atheist. Some people who don't live in major cities are not aware of having met any atheists in real life. It is an issue of finding out that you are not alone, and that other people see the bullshit of religion like you. Getting some people out to just a few meetings to talk about much of nothing was valuable in and of itself.

David Silverman essentially has the correct tactic on how to improve the insinuation for atheists in the US, and that is to treat it like how gays came out of the closet.

The goal in the US isn't so much to convert more people to atheism, as much as it is to get the public to not see atheists as evil scary people.

But good luck getting people to come out to atheist group meets if people are afraid that some SJW nutso will take issue with your politics and try to get you fired from your job for disagreeing with them.

[Shatterface]

Actually... I've been watching Daredevil season 2 and it's terrifying how fiscally irresponsible they are.

They say they're broke all the time... and then buy coffees. Or go out for a dinner. It's fucking insane. I find it really hard not to freak out about it. My husband says it's normal for Americans to live on their credit cards but honestly... what is the shit is the shit.

Thanks for mentioning Banshee. I had a look at the first episode and I like it. It also led me to Blindspot which I have been enjoying. Not having a TV sometimes I miss the good ones. Cheers.

Everyone in EastEnders lives yards away from where they work but they still still drink coffee in the cafe instead of popping home for a drink. Same with Coronation Street. Sometimes I think they're fiction.

[Shatterface]

I realised I was going to love Banshee when a punch-up went on so long it had two commercial breaks.

[jimhabegger]

I looked all over for the best place to start my thread about community building, and I ended up here again, the place I most wanted to avoid, by process of elimination.

I found a better excuse for myself, than my first one, for posting here. It's to help me expand my metaphors. I'll go through a summary, from the Baha'i Universal House of Justice, of the community-building process it's promoting, and try to explain everything in it without using any God metaphors.

In case anyone would like to see the text I'm working from, it's the first paragraph of the message of the Universal House of Justice to the Baha'is of the world, April 2008. I'll take it one sentence at a time.

"Thousands upon thousands, embracing the diversity of the entire human family, are engaged in systematic study of the Creative Word in an environment that is at once serious and uplifting."

This creates an embarrassment for me at the very start, because "Creative Word" seems to me to be used in some ways that I don't understand very well at all. In this context, I see it as possibly a reference to the influence that words can have on people, and consequently on the world, beyond the thoughts that they describe, with poetry and singing as examples of that. In my mythology, some parts of religious scriptures, notably the words of the figures that Baha'u'llah calls "Manifestations of God," have some kind of influence that no other words have, that is indispensable for bringing out the best possibilities in people, in society, and in the world around us. That influence can't easily explained by any differences that anyone can see between those writings and other writings, so it can't be duplicated by anyone trying to imitate it.

It might be like the difference between the effects of two people playing music on a piano, who are equally skillful by any measurement of skill, but whose playing affects people very differently. If people are very moved by someone's piano playing, another person can't move them the same way simply by imitating what they see that person doing.

That's a long way from explaining it the way I would like to be able to explain it, and it embarrasses me to post it, but at this point, posting it and seeing comments and questions about it might help me refine it better than anything I could do myself. Oh! I almost forgot! That's the excuse I'm giving myself for posting here.

[Hunt]

I looked all over for the best place to start my thread about community building, and I ended up here again, the place I most wanted to avoid, by process of elimination.

You looked all over the web for a place to build community, and this is were you landed. Strangely, that makes some kind of sense. All the same, you poor, poor bastard.

[jimhabegger]

You looked all over the web for a place to build community, and this is were you landed. Strangely, that makes some kind of sense. All the same, you poor, poor bastard.

Hunt, sorry! I meant, I looked all over these forums.

[jimhabegger]

And the place I most wanted to avoid in these forums was this thread.

[VickyCaramel]

It is hard to disagree, however I am not really sure it is that important to atheism when you look at what the Atheist community actually was. It wasn't the community which was making progress, it was individuals from Richard Dawkins to Thunderf00t. I am not sure that a bunch of atheists having a conference actually ever recruited anybody. I really doubt blogs ever did too much because they were preaching to the converted. It takes effort to go read a blog.

From a US perspective, I disagree.

Right before this started there was a push to put up billboards inviting atheists to their local group under whatever title or umbrella group they were under. In parts of the US, admitting to being an atheist is synonymous with being a devil worshiper. Atheists pretty much have no shot of getting elected to government positions. If you work for a small company, you can be legally fired for being an atheist. Some people who don't live in major cities are not aware of having met any atheists in real life. It is an issue of finding out that you are not alone, and that other people see the bullshit of religion like you. Getting some people out to just a few meetings to talk about much of nothing was valuable in and of itself.

David Silverman essentially has the correct tactic on how to improve the insinuation for atheists in the US, and that is to treat it like how gays came out of the closet.

The goal in the US isn't so much to convert more people to atheism, as much as it is to get the public to not see atheists as evil scary people.

But good luck getting people to come out to atheist group meets if people are afraid that some SJW nutso will take issue with your politics and try to get you fired from your job for disagreeing with them.

I get it, and I am sincere when I say that I am sympathetic. But in the great scheme things, I don't think that is actually going to be that important.

Lets break this down into parts.
I can see it is hugely important for individual atheists to be able to know they aren't alone, and actually have some face-to-face rather than just talking on the internet. But while that helps them, it doesn't really further the plan for world domination.

As for persuading theists that we are not devil worshippers, I can't see that this would be particularly effective even if this was the ONLY atheist initiative on the planets. But the fact is that while you are trying to show a softer side, there are shitlords like me actively seeing out theists where ever i can find them and savaging everything they hold dear. Even David Silverman (peace be upon him) is pretty aggressive calling religion a scam on national news.

But he does get on national news... and I am not saying it is a complete waste of time, but I do think that some things are far more effective than others. If you are shaking the faith of young people, even if they are just unsure, they drift away from the churches, the churches lose power and money, and that is the beginning of the end.

By the same token, I think there are many things atheists do which are ineffective. I don't think that arguing medieval apologetics is not as effective as mentioning biblical morality. I think targeting biblical history widens the audience while philosophy narrows it. I think too often atheists allow theists to chose the battle field and have the initiative.

[jimhabegger]

Hunt, now that I think of it, there might be some truth in the way you understood it.

[deLurch]

I looked all over for the best place to start my thread about community building, and I ended up here again, the place I most wanted to avoid, by process of elimination.

I found a better excuse for myself, than my first one, for posting here. It's to help me expand my metaphors. I'll go through a summary, from the Baha'i Universal House of Justice, of the community-building process it's promoting, and try to explain everything in it without using any God metaphors.

In case anyone would like to see the text I'm working from, it's the first paragraph of the message of the Universal House of Justice to the Baha'is of the world, April 2008. I'll take it one sentence at a time.

"Thousands upon thousands, embracing the diversity of the entire human family, are engaged in systematic study of the Creative Word in an environment that is at once serious and uplifting."

This creates an embarrassment for me at the very start, because "Creative Word" seems to me to be used in some ways that I don't understand very well at all. In this context, I see it as possibly a reference to the influence that words can have on people, and consequently on the world, beyond the thoughts that they describe, with poetry and singing as examples of that. In my mythology, some parts of religious scriptures, notably the words of the figures that Baha'u'llah calls "Manifestations of God," have some kind of influence that no other words have, that is indispensable for bringing out the best possibilities in people, in society, and in the world around us. That influence can't easily explained by any differences that anyone can see between those writings and other writings, so it can't be duplicated by anyone trying to imitate it.

It might be like the difference between the effects of two people playing music on a piano, who are equally skillful by any measurement of skill, but whose playing affects people very differently. If people are very moved by someone's piano playing, another person can't move them the same way simply by imitating what they see that person doing.

That's a long way from explaining it the way I would like to be able to explain it, and it embarrasses me to post it, but at this point, posting it and seeing comments and questions about it might help me refine it better than anything I could do myself. Oh! I almost forgot! That's the excuse I'm giving myself for posting here.

If you want to start a discussion on community forming, might I suggest lightening up on the metaphors and stick to more substantial information. If you go nuts on the metaphors, your writing will start to look like, and have the substance of a dissertation on feminist glaciers.

[VickyCaramel]

I feel somewhat sympathetic to the position of jimhabegger. He is correct that most of us need myth and metaphors to live a full life.

If I am going to adopt a mythology, I'm going with Forn Siðr. They have booze and plenty of red meat, and very few hang-ups about sex.

[Sulman]

It's a joke.

Just a moment... Just a moment... I've just picked up a fault in the AE-35 unit. It's going to go 100% failure within 72 hours.
http://i.imgur.com/ihgossj.jpg

[feathers]

"Thousands upon thousands, embracing the diversity of the entire human family, are engaged in systematic study of the Creative Word in an environment that is at once serious and uplifting."

This creates an embarrassment for me at the very start, because "Creative Word" seems to me to be used in some ways that I don't understand very well at all.

Ah but, we have some previous experience with Creativity.

[John D]

It is hard to disagree, however I am not really sure it is that important to atheism when you look at what the Atheist community actually was. It wasn't the community which was making progress, it was individuals from Richard Dawkins to Thunderf00t. I am not sure that a bunch of atheists having a conference actually ever recruited anybody. I really doubt blogs ever did too much because they were preaching to the converted. It takes effort to go read a blog.

From a US perspective, I disagree.

Right before this started there was a push to put up billboards inviting atheists to their local group under whatever title or umbrella group they were under. In parts of the US, admitting to being an atheist is synonymous with being a devil worshiper. Atheists pretty much have no shot of getting elected to government positions. If you work for a small company, you can be legally fired for being an atheist. Some people who don't live in major cities are not aware of having met any atheists in real life. It is an issue of finding out that you are not alone, and that other people see the bullshit of religion like you. Getting some people out to just a few meetings to talk about much of nothing was valuable in and of itself.

David Silverman essentially has the correct tactic on how to improve the insinuation for atheists in the US, and that is to treat it like how gays came out of the closet.

The goal in the US isn't so much to convert more people to atheism, as much as it is to get the public to not see atheists as evil scary people.

But good luck getting people to come out to atheist group meets if people are afraid that some SJW nutso will take issue with your politics and try to get you fired from your job for disagreeing with them.

I agree DeLurch - About 6 years ago I was really getting excited about joining with people who just wanted to come out of the closet as an atheist.... and just claiming that we are normal people. This is an argument atheists can win. I don't think we can convince anyone we are "better" than they are because, well, frankly, in many way atheists really are no better than anyone else. But, in America, atheists are still often vilified and not well understood.

But, I couldn't find any groups that were focused on just coming out and saying "Hey... we are your neighbors... and we are okay." I tried CFI for a while and all I did was fight about politics with them. I tried Humanist organizations and they just talk about Sikivu Hutchinson, etc. I tried American Atheists, but they got so preachy and mean that I think they made things worse (but they are doing better than most).

So, I don't know how this will come out. People will just generally getting less religious in America (mostly due to the internet, perhaps). More and more people are just coming out on their own. I don't think there are any organizations that have done much one way or another. Bernie Sanders is very popular and clearly not very religious at all. His lack of religion doesn't seem to be hurting him.... especially with young people.

[CaptainFluffyBunny]

You looked all over the web for a place to build community, and this is were you landed. Strangely, that makes some kind of sense. All the same, you poor, poor bastard.

Hunt, sorry! I meant, I looked all over these forums.

If you are trying to wedge your pet topic in here and make this all about yourself, it will not go over well. At the very least I would advise you to open a different thread in the atheism section.

[d4m10n]

Don't call the cops you guys.

Here's some better fucking advice: Don't take mental health tips from the mentally ill.

I am not envious of this lady's life. What mental illness does she have anyway?

Not qualified to diagnose, and it's stupid to do over the internet, but if I was forced to guess: All of cluster B.

[ffs]

[Billie from Ockham]

100, 50, 25, 12.5, 6.25, 3.125, 1.5625 would be one great great great great grandparent.

I'm an idiot. Rounding. Yeah.

[Billie from Ockham]

I must admit, that its very difficult for most Westerners to understand the cultural milieu of say Iran or India/Pakistan. It almost as if a particular organ of cognition is missing, and often the effort to explain what one finds extraordinary in these cultures is like trying to describe subtle colors of a sunset to a blind man. Some success towards this has been, for example, in translation of the poetry of Rumi or Fariduddin Attar. However, these poems are almost invariable misunderstood and the subtle meaning of highly specialized Sufi vocabulary used by these Sufi poets gets lost. Their depth is probably lost to most people not raised in those cultures.

This is, quite frankly, a baseless assumption. It'd even go as far as to call it an anti-reductionist myth. What you're saying is that there is some cognitive special property given to people simply by belonging to a culture. Cultural contexts can affect tastes and the understanding of references, but I don't think that there is room to support the idea of "extra organs of cognition" or "other ways of knowing".

Not only baseless, but close to demonstrably wrong. The key distinction is between modular and non-modular faculties. The former are abilities that correspond to separate "chunks" of brain that have no other function; the latter are abilities that rely on multiple "chunks" of brain that are also used for other abilities. The only known modular systems in primates are vision, audition, tactile sensation, and motor control. Nothing as "higher-order" as processing metaphors and/or poetry is modular.

[Billie from Ockham]

Ah so. Though you might consider using a smiley to telegraph ahead your intent. Otherwise it kind of looks like a post hoc rationalization.

oh sweet god

People should not use “post hoc rationalization”. It became fashionable among atheists, rationalists or skeptics, but it is wrong. Rationalization is always post hoc, after the fact.

If you limit "rationalization" to conscious processing and/or allow "post hoc" to include after the decision but before the action, then I agree. But under other uses of "rationalization" the modifier of "post hoc" is not redundant and is, therefore, useful. It tells you that the rationalizing occurred after the action was performed, which is distinct from "a priori rationalizing" (aka "talking yourself into doing something").

[VickyCaramel]

Here's some better fucking advice: Don't take mental health tips from the mentally ill.

I am not envious of this lady's life. What mental illness does she have anyway?

Not qualified to diagnose, and it's stupid to do over the internet, but if I was forced to guess: All of cluster B.

Substance abuse, antagonism towards the police, and a belief that her problems can be blamed on depression, anxiety and PTSD suggests she is a cluster F.

I DO NOT buy into her side of the story. In the worst panic attacks, if you are able to talk, it would be very easy to call for an ambulance and say that you are having a panic attack and are having problems breathing etc. If the police arrived, they would presumably prefer to do the same thing and pass it on to the paramedics... unless she is acting out.

[Billie from Ockham]

2 new Witches of the Week in the tennis world, Novak Djokovic says men should earn more than women!! The horror!!

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/tenn ... 43696.html

How long until Hollywood decides to pay all actors the same amount, regardless of how many people see the movie?

[jet_lagg]

<snip>

But, I couldn't find any groups that were focused on just coming out and saying "Hey... we are your neighbors... and we are okay." I tried CFI for a while and all I did was fight about politics with them. I tried Humanist organizations and they just talk about Sikivu Hutchinson, etc. I tried American Atheists, but they got so preachy and mean that I think they made things worse (but they are doing better than most).

So, I don't know how this will come out. People will just generally getting less religious in America (mostly due to the internet, perhaps). More and more people are just coming out on their own. I don't think there are any organizations that have done much one way or another. Bernie Sanders is very popular and clearly not very religious at all. His lack of religion doesn't seem to be hurting him.... especially with young people.

I believe that's the bulk of it. I grew up in the suburbs in the north east U.S. Every single one of my inner circle friends was an atheist, and we'd have friendly, if sometimes heated, debates with the leaders at our church's youth group. The story is very different according friends of mine who grew up in the bible belt. Religion is fully entrenched in the culture there, and the phrase "coming out" is entirely apt. I know people, grown and with children of their own, who still won't tell their parents.

The internet means more and more of my culture coming into contact with theirs, and it allows kids with doubts to "meet" with like minds. It's prying open religion's death grip, and has made the conferences largely obsolete IMO (unless cons are your excuse to drink like a fish and increase your social standing in an ever shrinking and increasingly incestuous cesspool).

[Billie from Ockham]

Melissa Click tells her side of the story to the WaPo (tl:dr "I had a lot on my plate, it was a matter for my conscience and, after all, doesn't everyone make mistakes? Oh and Missou didn't really have guidelines for this so it's actually kind of their fault, if you think about it.")

https://archive.is/dPnrN

I have some sympathy for the idea that one small mistake should not be the end of a career. But I have no sympathy when we're talking about multiple, serious mistakes that are directly related to your job. After all, the shooting of Michael Brown could be viewed as one small mistake.

[Old_ones]

I feel somewhat sympathetic to the position of jimhabegger. He is correct that most of us need myth and metaphors to live a full life.

If I am going to adopt a mythology, I'm going with Forn Siðr. They have booze and plenty of red meat, and very few hang-ups about sex.

Fuck yes! So much this ^^

[VickyCaramel]

I feel somewhat sympathetic to the position of jimhabegger. He is correct that most of us need myth and metaphors to live a full life.

If I am going to adopt a mythology, I'm going with Forn Siðr. They have booze and plenty of red meat, and very few hang-ups about sex.

Fuck yes! So much this ^^

...and for those that prefer wine and shish kebabs, there is Hellenism.

Makes you wonder how Christianity ever got off the ground doesn't it?

[deLurch]

If I am going to adopt a mythology, I'm going with Forn Siðr. They have booze and plenty of red meat, and very few hang-ups about sex.

Fuck yes! So much this ^^

...and for those that prefer wine and shish kebabs, there is Hellenism.

Makes you wonder how Christianity ever got off the ground doesn't it?

By co-opting pagan holidays.

[feathers]

Makes you wonder how Christianity ever got off the ground doesn't it?

2 words: state religion. An actual belief in the Jewish zombie was never the issue. State power and control on the other hand...

[dog puke]

Apparently you're supposed to fuck them in the ear.

So is that aural sex?

=

The technical term is Aural Ear Otic.

[AndrewV69]

Do you also believe that there is an organ of cognition that you need in order to understand or appreciate Shakespeare's poetry as non-English or Dante's Divine Comedy as a non-Italian? Or are the cultures of Iran and India/Pakistan somewhat "special" and superior, beyond the grasp of mere Westerners? If so, why?

He never said that. He said almost if. Go back and re-read.

[AndrewV69]

My mistake (it's late) as I thought you were referring to her dissertation and not her resume. Though I find it hard to see how you could get "Decline and Fall" out of the latter.

Because people are what make a culture and here we have yet another person ruined by an expensive education devoted to Women’s Studies and Intersectionality.

Imagine a society sufficiently infested with people who behave in destructive ways because of certain beliefs? What would that look like? How would that affect say ... Skepticism?

Extrapolate from there. History is littered with examples of civilizations that "failed". Usually for multiple cascading reasons.

[Kirbmarc]

Do you also believe that there is an organ of cognition that you need in order to understand or appreciate Shakespeare's poetry as non-English or Dante's Divine Comedy as a non-Italian? Or are the cultures of Iran and India/Pakistan somewhat "special" and superior, beyond the grasp of mere Westerners? If so, why?

He never said that. He said almost if. Go back and re-read.

So was it just metaphor? ;)

[comhcinc]

And the place I most wanted to avoid in these forums was this thread.

This thread being the only place people post.

Get a blog and go fuck yourself.

[comhcinc]

I believe that's the bulk of it. I grew up in the suburbs in the north east U.S. Every single one of my inner circle friends was an atheist, and we'd have friendly, if sometimes heated, debates with the leaders at our church's youth group. The story is very different according friends of mine who grew up in the bible belt. Religion is fully entrenched in the culture there, and the phrase "coming out" is entirely apt. I know people, grown and with children of their own, who still won't tell their parents.

The internet means more and more of my culture coming into contact with theirs, and it allows kids with doubts to "meet" with like minds. It's prying open religion's death grip, and has made the conferences largely obsolete IMO (unless cons are your excuse to drink like a fish and increase your social standing in an ever shrinking and increasingly incestuous cesspool).

I grew up in the bible belt and those friends of yours just sound like pussies to me. When people talk aboot the south like this it just makes you look stupid.