Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

[John Brown]

Becky could not sound more like a spoiled teenage valleygirl in that reddit panel video if she tried. The intonation, pitch, condescension just LEAKING through made it seem like she was going to z-snap and say "talk to the hand"

What I saw was fairly normal for a tech conference Q&A. The imgur guy was not rude at all, at least not for that venue. But, when you're becky, and used to getting the kind of obsequious deference that only the Queen Of All Bad Dye Jobs can get, well, I imagine a group of people not being impressed with you and hanging on your every word would seem weird and rude.

If you ask Amanda Marcotte, the reason the Reddit crowd didn't like the panel was ... wait for it ... racism and sexism.

Well, of course she did. She's a one trick pony. It would be shocking and surprising is she came up with any other reason.

[jimthepleb]

Becky could not sound more like a spoiled teenage valleygirl in that reddit panel video if she tried. The intonation, pitch, condescension just LEAKING through made it seem like she was going to z-snap and say "talk to the hand"

What I saw was fairly normal for a tech conference Q&A. The imgur guy was not rude at all, at least not for that venue. But, when you're becky, and used to getting the kind of obsequious deference that only the Queen Of All Bad Dye Jobs can get, well, I imagine a group of people not being impressed with you and hanging on your every word would seem weird and rude.

If you ask Amanda Marcotte, the reason the Reddit crowd didn't like the panel was ... wait for it ... racism and sexism.

BWAHAHAHAHAHA :lol:
Oh.
You were serious.
:doh:

[dewi666]

http://i.imgur.com/WLfBIig.png

[youtube]30lGrarz3MQ[/youtube]

[EdwardGemmer]

I understand where the Gears of War guy is coming from, but if he thinks his efforts to make his games more inclusive will be appreciated by the Sarkeesians of the world, he's in for a rude awakening.

I dunno, it seems likely that Gears of War will be mentioned in her next video, so we shall see.

Sarkeesian is finding the evidence she is looking for instead of following it. Fail.

I don't find that to be true. It isn't like Donkey Kong, Mario, and Legend of Zelda are bit players in the history of video games and she had to work really hard to find a damsel in distress in a video game. My oldest daughter is just getting into video games a bit. We play Spelunky together and she likes to choose the female character. I don't think it's cherry picking to say that in Mario you simply can't choose a girl character in all the games except for the one which wasn't really designed to be a Mario game.

[Submariner]

I understand where the Gears of War guy is coming from, but if he thinks his efforts to make his games more inclusive will be appreciated by the Sarkeesians of the world, he's in for a rude awakening.

I dunno, it seems likely that Gears of War will be mentioned in her next video, so we shall see.

Sarkeesian is finding the evidence she is looking for instead of following it. Fail.

I don't find that to be true. It isn't like Donkey Kong, Mario, and Legend of Zelda are bit players in the history of video games and she had to work really hard to find a damsel in distress in a video game. My oldest daughter is just getting into video games a bit. We play Spelunky together and she likes to choose the female character. I don't think it's cherry picking to say that in Mario you simply can't choose a girl character in all the games except for the one which wasn't really designed to be a Mario game.

Choosing a female character ( ala Mass Effect) will likely not be praised by AS either. It will be seen as the "man with boobs" trope. The only thing which might appease her is for game designers to create two separate story lines depending on which gender the player chooses./serious

Even then, the outcry will be "What about the other 21 genders" /sarcasm

[Zenspace]

http://i.imgur.com/WLfBIig.png

WIN!!! :lol:

[EdwardGemmer]

Becky could not sound more like a spoiled teenage valleygirl in that reddit panel video if she tried. The intonation, pitch, condescension just LEAKING through made it seem like she was going to z-snap and say "talk to the hand"

What I saw was fairly normal for a tech conference Q&A. The imgur guy was not rude at all, at least not for that venue. But, when you're becky, and used to getting the kind of obsequious deference that only the Queen Of All Bad Dye Jobs can get, well, I imagine a group of people not being impressed with you and hanging on your every word would seem weird and rude.

If you ask Amanda Marcotte, the reason the Reddit crowd didn't like the panel was ... wait for it ... racism and sexism.

Well, of course she did. She's a one trick pony. It would be shocking and surprising is she came up with any other reason.

I would retweet her on her post about how hard it is to give people advice without blaming victims, except I can't because she blocked me for some reason. I'm amused at this goals of exclusion that seem to persist among the atheist movement. It isn't like we are great in number to begin with.

[decius]

I don't find that to be true. It isn't like Donkey Kong, Mario, and Legend of Zelda are bit players in the history of video games and she had to work really hard to find a damsel in distress in a video game. My oldest daughter is just getting into video games a bit. We play Spelunky together and she likes to choose the female character. I don't think it's cherry picking to say that in Mario you simply can't choose a girl character in all the games except for the one which wasn't really designed to be a Mario game.

Who fucking cares, seriously? It's a bloody mindless game.

Dear Muslima...

[AndrewV69]

I accidentally pasted a full FTB comment section as a quote. It might still be on SN's archives.

All 50,000 comments! I must have missed that one. Phil accidently the internet! LMAO. Kind of hard to miss I imagine. Ahahahaha!

Now I suspect there is at least one thread I missed, or I am a lot closer to going full senile than I suspected.

[JackSkeptic]

I understand where the Gears of War guy is coming from, but if he thinks his efforts to make his games more inclusive will be appreciated by the Sarkeesians of the world, he's in for a rude awakening.

I dunno, it seems likely that Gears of War will be mentioned in her next video, so we shall see.

Sarkeesian is finding the evidence she is looking for instead of following it. Fail.

I don't find that to be true. It isn't like Donkey Kong, Mario, and Legend of Zelda are bit players in the history of video games and she had to work really hard to find a damsel in distress in a video game. My oldest daughter is just getting into video games a bit. We play Spelunky together and she likes to choose the female character. I don't think it's cherry picking to say that in Mario you simply can't choose a girl character in all the games except for the one which wasn't really designed to be a Mario game.

She is ignoring cultural influences on those games.

[Maximus]

If you are interested in Anita Sarkeesian's video game series, a couple good links.

From a creator of Gears of War:

Heaven forbid a woman actually take a magnifying glass to our beloved hobby and actually try to unravel and figure out why things are the way they are in the effort that somehow she might change things?

http://www.filibustercartoons.com/index ... -distress/

Sarkeesian spends 23 minutes criticizing the gross and cliched way females were depicted in video games during the 1980s and ’90s, which, as her thesis/title suggests, was primarily as passive victims captured by villains, and thus shiny objects to be collected by the game’s hero, rather than characters with any sort of agency of their own. It’s an accurate observation, but considering almost every game she cites in her catalog of “Damsels in Distress” are Japanese titles produced by Japanese developers for a primarily Japanese market, there’s an obvious cultural commonality here that goes inexcusably unexplored.

I understand where the Gears of War guy is coming from, but if he thinks his efforts to make his games more inclusive will be appreciated by the Sarkeesians of the world, he's in for a rude awakening.

It depends on if she sees his post. Given her list of upcoming videos she could could place his female characters in the 'men with tits' category or if she wants his further support she could use it as one of the good examples. It's already been pointed out that she neglects anything that contradicts her so she has no integrity.

[decius]

I strongly recommend watching this presentation about rethinking charity for the future.

Pallotta is an advisor with the Reason Project and moves billions of dollars in philanthropic enterprises. Compare his visions to the vacuities emanating from the SJWs (and the focus of his concerns to the moralising fixations targeted at the video game industry).

Personally, I don't even agree with the concept of charity per se; I favour high taxation and a strong state that rationally caters to all the disadvantaged in equal measure, but the kind of thinking out of the box, on display here, is awe-inspiring.

[Phil_Giordana_FCD]

No, really, Tigzy's latest offering is a work of marvel (haha). If this whole mess were just a battle of wit and humour, that panel would win the war. I don't usually find photoshops posted here extremely funny (save Jan and Skep Tickle) but really. Ali is looking at me in a weird way as i'm still laughing out loud.

Well played, Tigzy!

[Apples]

I want to talk to you about how you talk to me about how I talk about my body, and how I talk about how I feel about my body, and what’s wrong with everything you have to say about what I have to say.

In short, fuck you.

I don’t love my body. My body is awful. I will never love my body. I never have. And I’m 35 and maybe you think that’s too old to have real hang ups about my body. But I do. And I always will. And maybe you think that because I’ve lost a bunch of weight I should feel great about my body. But I don’t. And I won’t.

Dear Elyse, I don't know why you want to talk to me about this, but I can assure you I have never talked to you about how you talk about your body, and I never even gave your body a single thought until you wrote this rant and posted all those awful pictures of your awful body. In short, fuck you, too.

http://skepchick.org/2013/03/dont-tell- ... e-my-body/
http://www.freezepage.com/1363111576IGFKWRYYLD

[Phil_Giordana_FCD]

Weird tweet I jost got, as well as other Pitters, linking to a petition to keep Eucliwood banned:



Petition here:

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/keep ... anned-lwp/

Da fuck?!?

[bhoytony]

Who fucking cares, seriously? It's a bloody mindless game.

Dear Muslima...

Amen Brother. I can't believe that supposed grownups get so fucking upset over some video games they play. The whole western world is slowly becoming infantalised, it's no wonder the FTB crowd act like overgrown toddlers.

[AndrewV69]

http://i.imgur.com/WLfBIig.png

They'd need 10 people just to handle Steersman. Although knowing him he will go into contrarian mode and attack us. That would be fun too:)

More likely he would attack both them and us concurrently while supporting both.

It would be complete chaos. :mrgreen:

[Maximus]

I understand where the Gears of War guy is coming from, but if he thinks his efforts to make his games more inclusive will be appreciated by the Sarkeesians of the world, he's in for a rude awakening.

I dunno, it seems likely that Gears of War will be mentioned in her next video, so we shall see.

Sarkeesian is finding the evidence she is looking for instead of following it. Fail.

I don't find that to be true. It isn't like Donkey Kong, Mario, and Legend of Zelda are bit players in the history of video games and she had to work really hard to find a damsel in distress in a video game. My oldest daughter is just getting into video games a bit. We play Spelunky together and she likes to choose the female character. I don't think it's cherry picking to say that in Mario you simply can't choose a girl character in all the games except for the one which wasn't really designed to be a Mario game.

And what is to be said of Mario? A fat italian stereotype, is that fat shaming, or racist or.... how has that affected the italian community?

Without a solid connection between violence in video games affecting people I fail to see how there would be a relevant connection with womens potrayals. First the connection has to be established, unless that is done it is just pointless theorising.

It seems like something the market will take care of anyway. Companies that neglect what women want will lose out on a potentially huge market.

[Patrick]

It seems like something the market will take care of anyway. Companies that neglect what women want will lose out on a potentially huge market.

So you're calling female gamers fat?

[Mr Danksworth]

I want to talk to you about how you talk to me about how I talk about my body, and how I talk about how I feel about my body, and what’s wrong with everything you have to say about what I have to say.

In short, fuck you.

I don’t love my body. My body is awful. I will never love my body. I never have. And I’m 35 and maybe you think that’s too old to have real hang ups about my body. But I do. And I always will. And maybe you think that because I’ve lost a bunch of weight I should feel great about my body. But I don’t. And I won’t.

Dear Elyse, I don't know why you want to talk to me about this, but I can assure you I have never talked to you about how you talk about your body, and I never even gave your body a single thought until you wrote this rant and posted all those awful pictures of your awful body. In short, fuck you, too.

http://skepchick.org/2013/03/dont-tell- ... e-my-body/
http://www.freezepage.com/1363111576IGFKWRYYLD

I should not have clicked that link while I was eating breakfast, it put me off my bacon. I guess Elyse will have to rely on her stunning personality to get a partner...good luck with that.

[EdwardGemmer]

I don't find that to be true. It isn't like Donkey Kong, Mario, and Legend of Zelda are bit players in the history of video games and she had to work really hard to find a damsel in distress in a video game. My oldest daughter is just getting into video games a bit. We play Spelunky together and she likes to choose the female character. I don't think it's cherry picking to say that in Mario you simply can't choose a girl character in all the games except for the one which wasn't really designed to be a Mario game.

Who fucking cares, seriously? It's a bloody mindless game.

Dear Muslima...

Me. I care. The difference between this and say, Elevator Muslima, is that I don't hate you because you don't care. But media is a pretty big part of life, especially in America, and so are women, so it is an issue worth exploring.

[Maximus]

Who fucking cares, seriously? It's a bloody mindless game.

Dear Muslima...

Amen Brother. I can't believe that supposed grownups get so fucking upset over some video games they play. The whole western world is slowly becoming infantalised, it's no wonder the FTB crowd act like overgrown toddlers.

It's a no win situation, no matter what developers do the Anitas will always find something to complain about. The only video of Anita's I want to see is the last one about good examples of women in games, should be interesting.

[EdwardGemmer]

I understand where the Gears of War guy is coming from, but if he thinks his efforts to make his games more inclusive will be appreciated by the Sarkeesians of the world, he's in for a rude awakening.

I dunno, it seems likely that Gears of War will be mentioned in her next video, so we shall see.

Sarkeesian is finding the evidence she is looking for instead of following it. Fail.

I don't find that to be true. It isn't like Donkey Kong, Mario, and Legend of Zelda are bit players in the history of video games and she had to work really hard to find a damsel in distress in a video game. My oldest daughter is just getting into video games a bit. We play Spelunky together and she likes to choose the female character. I don't think it's cherry picking to say that in Mario you simply can't choose a girl character in all the games except for the one which wasn't really designed to be a Mario game.

She is ignoring cultural influences on those games.

I don't think she does ignore cultural influences, but I did link to the article talking about how women are treated in Japan and how that might have affected the development of those games.

[JackSkeptic]

I don't find that to be true. It isn't like Donkey Kong, Mario, and Legend of Zelda are bit players in the history of video games and she had to work really hard to find a damsel in distress in a video game. My oldest daughter is just getting into video games a bit. We play Spelunky together and she likes to choose the female character. I don't think it's cherry picking to say that in Mario you simply can't choose a girl character in all the games except for the one which wasn't really designed to be a Mario game.

Who fucking cares, seriously? It's a bloody mindless game.

Dear Muslima...

Me. I care. The difference between this and say, Elevator Muslima, is that I don't hate you because you don't care. But media is a pretty big part of life, especially in America, and so are women, so it is an issue worth exploring.

It is worth exploring. But not by someone who is looking to prove a point and ignores any evidence to the contrary. If I did that I could prove misandry in video games, would be easy, or the addiction to the colour red. It is not how science works and she is claiming to be doing a proper investigation. Even if she hit relevant points it would have little value due to that as I can't trust her or her sources.

She will just give what her supporters wanted. The conclusion is already made. That is not how scientific investigation works.

[EdwardGemmer]

Who fucking cares, seriously? It's a bloody mindless game.

Dear Muslima...

Amen Brother. I can't believe that supposed grownups get so fucking upset over some video games they play. The whole western world is slowly becoming infantalised, it's no wonder the FTB crowd act like overgrown toddlers.

It's a no win situation, no matter what developers do the Anitas will always find something to complain about. The only video of Anita's I want to see is the last one about good examples of women in games, should be interesting.

If she is only trying to complain, then why would she have a video about good examples of women in games?

[welch]

Becky could not sound more like a spoiled teenage valleygirl in that reddit panel video if she tried. The intonation, pitch, condescension just LEAKING through made it seem like she was going to z-snap and say "talk to the hand"

What I saw was fairly normal for a tech conference Q&A. The imgur guy was not rude at all, at least not for that venue. But, when you're becky, and used to getting the kind of obsequious deference that only the Queen Of All Bad Dye Jobs can get, well, I imagine a group of people not being impressed with you and hanging on your every word would seem weird and rude.

If you ask Amanda Marcotte, the reason the Reddit crowd didn't like the panel was ... wait for it ... racism and sexism.

Well, of course she did. She's a one trick pony. It would be shocking and surprising is she came up with any other reason.

THat would be the only reason to quote her or refer to her. Otherwise, everyone already knows what she'll say.

[John Brown]

I don't think she does ignore cultural influences, but I did link to the article talking about how women are treated in Japan and how that might have affected the development of those games.

Speaking of, here's the latest from P.Z. on the gaming community:

freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/03 ... community/

This would have been so easy for Nintendo to have done, it’s rather revealing that they didn’t.

Ummm? LOLWUT?

[Apples]

Brony is back in T'dome, following up on his "Rhetorical Assassins" recruitment post. If FTBers were more self-aware, I might guess their apparent coolness to his idea was related to their seeing a bit too much of themselves in this list of attributes of potential targets:

*They avoid answering your questions, no matter how many of theirs you answer
*They take more complicated issues and run off on incorrect tangents and pretend it is your subject to confuse readers
*They load their paragraphs with assertions offered as fact and resist all attempts to link them to reality
*When they do give you a link to reality it is usually more opinion! No actual primary sources!
*When they describe the content of the position of another you discover that what is represented as paraphrase is dishonest hyperbole at best. You are made into an exaggeration.
*They engage in projection over and over and over. What they do, they attempt to place on you while they obfuscate.
*They strike the abused victim stand themselves and try to scream louder than the real victim while offering no evidence that they have been victimized

Sounds like an average afternoon in baboon-land. He then goes on to drone for awhile about his techniques.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... ent-577680
http://www.freezepage.com/1363112549VAKSBVARGW

[welch]

I understand where the Gears of War guy is coming from, but if he thinks his efforts to make his games more inclusive will be appreciated by the Sarkeesians of the world, he's in for a rude awakening.

I dunno, it seems likely that Gears of War will be mentioned in her next video, so we shall see.

Sarkeesian is finding the evidence she is looking for instead of following it. Fail.

I don't find that to be true. It isn't like Donkey Kong, Mario, and Legend of Zelda are bit players in the history of video games and she had to work really hard to find a damsel in distress in a video game. My oldest daughter is just getting into video games a bit. We play Spelunky together and she likes to choose the female character. I don't think it's cherry picking to say that in Mario you simply can't choose a girl character in all the games except for the one which wasn't really designed to be a Mario game.

that's not the problem. It's that she did a book report on two video game series and called it analysis.

[welch]

I accidentally pasted a full FTB comment section as a quote. It might still be on SN's archives.

All 50,000 comments! I must have missed that one. Phil accidently the internet! LMAO. Kind of hard to miss I imagine. Ahahahaha!

Now I suspect there is at least one thread I missed, or I am a lot closer to going full senile than I suspected.

yet oddly, it didn't crash ERV. That's because Phil's not a l33t h@xx0r

[katamari Damassi]

I understand where the Gears of War guy is coming from, but if he thinks his efforts to make his games more inclusive will be appreciated by the Sarkeesians of the world, he's in for a rude awakening.

I dunno, it seems likely that Gears of War will be mentioned in her next video, so we shall see.

My guess is that her line of attack in regards to the portrayal of women in GoW will be: Too butch-man with boobs. Too fem-fighting fucktoy. Too empowered-ignoring the sexism and misogyny that women have to put up with. Too weak ignoring women's strength. Yadda, yadda, yadda...

[welch]

I want to talk to you about how you talk to me about how I talk about my body, and how I talk about how I feel about my body, and what’s wrong with everything you have to say about what I have to say.

In short, fuck you.

I don’t love my body. My body is awful. I will never love my body. I never have. And I’m 35 and maybe you think that’s too old to have real hang ups about my body. But I do. And I always will. And maybe you think that because I’ve lost a bunch of weight I should feel great about my body. But I don’t. And I won’t.

Dear Elyse, I don't know why you want to talk to me about this, but I can assure you I have never talked to you about how you talk about your body, and I never even gave your body a single thought until you wrote this rant and posted all those awful pictures of your awful body. In short, fuck you, too.

http://skepchick.org/2013/03/dont-tell- ... e-my-body/
http://www.freezepage.com/1363111576IGFKWRYYLD

tl;dr:

"I'm an insecure person. Therefore..."

Fuck if I know, there's no point. EVERYONE is insecure about themselves for some reason. The trick is accepting it and not letting it run your fucking life, and where possible, maybe trying to fix it.

[EdwardGemmer]

This would have been so easy for Nintendo to have done, it’s rather revealing that they didn’t.

Ummm? LOLWUT?

Just more laziness. What does it reveal? I dunno, but on FtB I'm guessing it reveals that the Slymepit is a rapist.

It is interesting to see this because the people that played those games as kids are now grown up with daughters and a lot more interested in playing these video games with them.

[welch]

I understand where the Gears of War guy is coming from, but if he thinks his efforts to make his games more inclusive will be appreciated by the Sarkeesians of the world, he's in for a rude awakening.

I dunno, it seems likely that Gears of War will be mentioned in her next video, so we shall see.

Sarkeesian is finding the evidence she is looking for instead of following it. Fail.

I don't find that to be true. It isn't like Donkey Kong, Mario, and Legend of Zelda are bit players in the history of video games and she had to work really hard to find a damsel in distress in a video game. My oldest daughter is just getting into video games a bit. We play Spelunky together and she likes to choose the female character. I don't think it's cherry picking to say that in Mario you simply can't choose a girl character in all the games except for the one which wasn't really designed to be a Mario game.

And what is to be said of Mario? A fat italian stereotype, is that fat shaming, or racist or.... how has that affected the italian community?

Without a solid connection between violence in video games affecting people I fail to see how there would be a relevant connection with womens potrayals. First the connection has to be established, unless that is done it is just pointless theorising.

It seems like something the market will take care of anyway. Companies that neglect what women want will lose out on a potentially huge market.

I don't have a problem with the idea that sexism in video games is real, and that it should be considered in a serious, rational manner. But Sarkeesian's book report has effectively fucked that up for the next few years, and THAT is what pisses me off.

[welch]

I don't find that to be true. It isn't like Donkey Kong, Mario, and Legend of Zelda are bit players in the history of video games and she had to work really hard to find a damsel in distress in a video game. My oldest daughter is just getting into video games a bit. We play Spelunky together and she likes to choose the female character. I don't think it's cherry picking to say that in Mario you simply can't choose a girl character in all the games except for the one which wasn't really designed to be a Mario game.

Who fucking cares, seriously? It's a bloody mindless game.

Dear Muslima...

Me. I care. The difference between this and say, Elevator Muslima, is that I don't hate you because you don't care. But media is a pretty big part of life, especially in America, and so are women, so it is an issue worth exploring.

and can you link to someone who actually did that?

[JackSkeptic]

Brony is back in T'dome, following up on his "Rhetorical Assassins" recruitment post. If FTBers were more self-aware, I might guess their apparent coolness to his idea was related to their seeing a bit too much of themselves in this list of attributes of potential targets:

*They avoid answering your questions, no matter how many of theirs you answer
*They take more complicated issues and run off on incorrect tangents and pretend it is your subject to confuse readers
*They load their paragraphs with assertions offered as fact and resist all attempts to link them to reality
*When they do give you a link to reality it is usually more opinion! No actual primary sources!
*When they describe the content of the position of another you discover that what is represented as paraphrase is dishonest hyperbole at best. You are made into an exaggeration.
*They engage in projection over and over and over. What they do, they attempt to place on you while they obfuscate.
*They strike the abused victim stand themselves and try to scream louder than the real victim while offering no evidence that they have been victimized

Sounds like an average afternoon in baboon-land. He then goes on to drone for awhile about his techniques.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... ent-577680
http://www.freezepage.com/1363112549VAKSBVARGW

The elephant in the room is that so called skeptics need any training at all. Maybe they will learn something. They should be embarrassed they need any 'training'. Half of me says this is a big joke.

[decius]

Me. I care. The difference between this and say, Elevator Muslima, is that I don't hate you because you don't care. But media is a pretty big part of life, especially in America, and so are women, so it is an issue worth exploring.

I lurv you, too.

[welch]

I dunno, it seems likely that Gears of War will be mentioned in her next video, so we shall see.

Sarkeesian is finding the evidence she is looking for instead of following it. Fail.

I don't find that to be true. It isn't like Donkey Kong, Mario, and Legend of Zelda are bit players in the history of video games and she had to work really hard to find a damsel in distress in a video game. My oldest daughter is just getting into video games a bit. We play Spelunky together and she likes to choose the female character. I don't think it's cherry picking to say that in Mario you simply can't choose a girl character in all the games except for the one which wasn't really designed to be a Mario game.

She is ignoring cultural influences on those games.

I don't think she does ignore cultural influences, but I did link to the article talking about how women are treated in Japan and how that might have affected the development of those games.

Bullshit. She COMPLETELY ignored cultural influences on the designers of both video games. The fact someone ELSE did not doesn't erase the fact that Sarkeesian did. What the fuck dude, you keep trying to make it sound like she did anything but the bare minimum for a "C" on her little video book report. Why?

[welch]

I don't find that to be true. It isn't like Donkey Kong, Mario, and Legend of Zelda are bit players in the history of video games and she had to work really hard to find a damsel in distress in a video game. My oldest daughter is just getting into video games a bit. We play Spelunky together and she likes to choose the female character. I don't think it's cherry picking to say that in Mario you simply can't choose a girl character in all the games except for the one which wasn't really designed to be a Mario game.

Who fucking cares, seriously? It's a bloody mindless game.

Dear Muslima...

Me. I care. The difference between this and say, Elevator Muslima, is that I don't hate you because you don't care. But media is a pretty big part of life, especially in America, and so are women, so it is an issue worth exploring.

It is worth exploring. But not by someone who is looking to prove a point and ignores any evidence to the contrary. If I did that I could prove misandry in video games, would be easy, or the addiction to the colour red. It is not how science works and she is claiming to be doing a proper investigation. Even if she hit relevant points it would have little value due to that as I can't trust her or her sources.

She will just give what her supporters wanted. The conclusion is already made. That is not how scientific investigation works.

She didn't even *analyze* it. She simply repeated back to us what was there, along with a dollop of information from earlier studies.

[EdwardGemmer]

I don't have a problem with the idea that sexism in video games is real, and that it should be considered in a serious, rational manner. But Sarkeesian's book report has effectively fucked that up for the next few years, and THAT is what pisses me off.

I don't see how that's possible - she's not even done with it. Also, she references a bajillion games in her first video. But what is good about it is that it is like a book report. Instead of talking about how she feels for 20 minutes followed by a brief snippet of a game, she presents lots of games and lots of facts and very little personal opinion.

[EdwardGemmer]

Bullshit. She COMPLETELY ignored cultural influences on the designers of both video games. The fact someone ELSE did not doesn't erase the fact that Sarkeesian did. What the fuck dude, you keep trying to make it sound like she did anything but the bare minimum for a "C" on her little video book report. Why?

Because for her to get a C, there has to be someone else who can at least get an A. I haven't had time to explore the entire internet for youtube videos about women and games, but please link me to any that are far superior. She talked at length about the history of the damsel in distress - King Kong, World War 2, Popeye, etc. I think it is legitimate criticism to say she didn't bring up the Japanese culture in the development of these games, but hey, legitimate criticism adds to the discussion. The games she brings up were still wildly, wildly popular in the United States and it's not like the United States had never encountered the trope before Japan brought it to them.

[John Brown]

Bullshit. She COMPLETELY ignored cultural influences on the designers of both video games. The fact someone ELSE did not doesn't erase the fact that Sarkeesian did. What the fuck dude, you keep trying to make it sound like she did anything but the bare minimum for a "C" on her little video book report. Why?

And this is exactly why P.Z's pile one with his "This would have been so easy for Nintendo to have done, it’s rather revealing that they didn’t," comment is so incredibly vapid.

In the follow on comments he asks: "Why is it OK for people 30 years ago to have been tacitly sexist? Was it OK for people a150 years ago to be pro-slavery?"

Remind me again. Where was Donkey Kong developed? Who were the programmers? Who was playing these games? Where were they playing them? What was video game culture like 30 years ago? How were people who played these games viewed?

Let's follow on with some more questions. How is the game tacitly sexist? How would P.Z. Myers had fixed the supposed tacit sexism were he in charge of Nintendo back on 1981? Would he have had two games shipped? One with a male hero and one with a female hero? Would he have had a console that would have let you choose between the two? How would having that choice affected production and shipping costs? Did the technology exist back in 1981 to even do that?

Furthermore, does P.Z. Myers understand that modding games is pretty fucking commonplace in today's gaming culture?

In three or four sentences, Myers has pretty much proven that he knows dick all about video games, its culture, basic economics or how technology works. He's also shown that he's incredibly myopic and American-centric in his thinking.

[decius]

Look, if you sit down at the console your intent is supposed to be recreation, not looking for facile reasons to be offended.
The lack of a Supermaria sis character is the equivalent of refusing to play ball because it's of the wrong colour.
Encouraging a kid in these attitudes is not the wise thing to do. It's weird that you don't see it.

[EdwardGemmer]

In three or four sentences, Myers has pretty much proven that he knows dick all about video games, its culture, basic economics or how technology works. He's also shown that he's incredibly myopic and American-centric in his thinking.

I don't take all that out of it. He's just lazy. He could say, Nintendo never did this, but someone else did. This would be a factual statement. Instead, he says it is "revealing" that Nintendo didn't do this. What is revealed is left to your own imagination but obviously the insinuation is that Nintendo hates women. But hey, he didn't actually say that, so why on earth would anyone assume that? Lazy lazy lazy.

[Maximus]

Who fucking cares, seriously? It's a bloody mindless game.

Dear Muslima...

Amen Brother. I can't believe that supposed grownups get so fucking upset over some video games they play. The whole western world is slowly becoming infantalised, it's no wonder the FTB crowd act like overgrown toddlers.

It's a no win situation, no matter what developers do the Anitas will always find something to complain about. The only video of Anita's I want to see is the last one about good examples of women in games, should be interesting.

If she is only trying to complain, then why would she have a video about good examples of women in games?

That's why I want to see that video, to see what is an approved female character type, and if any of her previously dismissed characters will fit.

[John Brown]

In three or four sentences, Myers has pretty much proven that he knows dick all about video games, its culture, basic economics or how technology works. He's also shown that he's incredibly myopic and American-centric in his thinking.

I don't take all that out of it. He's just lazy. He could say, Nintendo never did this, but someone else did. This would be a factual statement. Instead, he says it is "revealing" that Nintendo didn't do this. What is revealed is left to your own imagination but obviously the insinuation is that Nintendo hates women. But hey, he didn't actually say that, so why on earth would anyone assume that? Lazy lazy lazy.

Because it would have been nearly impossible to do so in 1981 for any number of reasons, but it's a fairly easy thing to do these days. But, why would Nintendo care? It's not like Donkey Kong is making them tons of money. And I suspect, outside of the perpetually offended, there is no demand for the change. People who wish to make the change can now do so, if it suits them.

Being lazy is only a small part of this. Myers is really that clueless. He doesn't take any of the questions I put forth into consideration. What incentive would there be in 1981 to make such a change? More importantly, was such a change even possible?

[EdwardGemmer]

Look, if you sit down at the console your intent is supposed to be recreation, not looking for facile reasons to be offended.
The lack of a Supermaria sis character is the equivalent of refusing to play ball because it's of the wrong colour.
Encouraging a kid in these attitudes is not the wise thing to do. It's weird that you don't see it.

I'm not offended. She doesn't come off as offended either, really. She clearly states in the beginning of her video that the games are enjoyable. But it's like the movies - one can enjoy a movie and at the same time talk about intelligently and observe facts about them as a whole.

[Maximus]

Look, if you sit down at the console your intent is supposed to be recreation, not looking for facile reasons to be offended.
The lack of a Supermaria sis character is the equivalent of refusing to play ball because it's of the wrong colour.
Encouraging a kid in these attitudes is not the wise thing to do. It's weird that you don't see it.

Exactly. Should you encourage kids to adaptable to what's available, or throw a tantrum and blame society because the world isn't how they think it should be.

[EdwardGemmer]

Look, if you sit down at the console your intent is supposed to be recreation, not looking for facile reasons to be offended.
The lack of a Supermaria sis character is the equivalent of refusing to play ball because it's of the wrong colour.
Encouraging a kid in these attitudes is not the wise thing to do. It's weird that you don't see it.

Exactly. Should you encourage kids to adaptable to what's available, or throw a tantrum and blame society because the world isn't how they think it should be.

I think it's best if they can do both. Sometimes it is worth throwing a tantrum.

[John Brown]

Look, if you sit down at the console your intent is supposed to be recreation, not looking for facile reasons to be offended.
The lack of a Supermaria sis character is the equivalent of refusing to play ball because it's of the wrong colour.
Encouraging a kid in these attitudes is not the wise thing to do. It's weird that you don't see it.

Exactly. Should you encourage kids to adaptable to what's available, or throw a tantrum and blame society because the world isn't how they think it should be.

Better yet, encourage your kids to program or hack their own video games to make them adaptable to them.

[John Greg]

EdwardGemmer said:

Because for her to get a C, there has to be someone else who can at least get an A.

No, no there does not. That is a false dichotomy, or false equivalence, or something like that. I have been in many, many classes in college where the best marked obtained by anyone was a B- or C+.

[EdwardGemmer]

EdwardGemmer said:

Because for her to get a C, there has to be someone else who can at least get an A.

No, no there does not. That is a false dichotomy, or false equivalence, or something like that. I have been in many, many classes in college where the best marked obtained by anyone was a B- or C+.

That may be true, but if a professor never hands out a grade better than a B-, then a B- is effectively an A, because it is more likely that the teacher simply refuses to give an A than to say he has never in his life encountered an A worthy paper.

Look, I don't know what your grading standards are. Her video clearly has a point, has many, many examples, she shows her work, and the presentation is great. What is she missing?

[Altair]

I don't think she does ignore cultural influences, but I did link to the article talking about how women are treated in Japan and how that might have affected the development of those games.

I think those games might have been influenced by the technological limitations of the time when they were released.

According to this link, a nintendo cartridge could store 1 Megabyte, and super nintendo had 8 Megabytes in each cartridge (compared with PS3's 50GB disks).

With that kind of space, they didn't have the opportunity to create intricate plots, and a "bad guy captured <character's> girlfriend, <character> goes to rescue her" gave a quick and clear motivation.

As the games evolved, so have their stories, until now we have games like Enslaved, which is "a re-imagining of the ancient Chinese story Journey to the West by Wu Cheng'en, one of the Four Great Classical Novels of China", written by Alex Garland.

Current games can create characters with deeper motivations and more intricate characters, and that could allow game writers to expand the characters available, and give them less simplistic motivations.

I don't have any evidence for this, but I have the impression that initially boys were the main consumers of videogames.
But were games with male protagonists created because of this, or were they the main consumers because the available games had male protagonists? that sounds like the chicken-egg problem, and I don't have a clear answer.

[windy]

Weird tweet I jost got, as well as other Pitters, linking to a petition to keep Eucliwood banned:



Petition here:

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/keep ... anned-lwp/

Da fuck?!?

You read right, it's an expat from Atheism+, and it was not a former Atheist + when it joined the pit, nor was it when it was banned, but things have gone downhill fast. It was banned from the main forums but not a hidden forum connected to it. The woman that suggested Euwoo for the place has terrible taste in associates.

(re. bolded part): could even the atheism+ mods be that clueless??

Sounds like part of the same setup to me...

[John Brown]

EdwardGemmer said:

Because for her to get a C, there has to be someone else who can at least get an A.

No, no there does not. That is a false dichotomy, or false equivalence, or something like that. I have been in many, many classes in college where the best marked obtained by anyone was a B- or C+.

That may be true, but if a professor never hands out a grade better than a B-, then a B- is effectively an A, because it is more likely that the teacher simply refuses to give an A than to say he has never in his life encountered an A worthy paper.

Look, I don't know what your grading standards are. Her video clearly has a point, has many, many examples, she shows her work, and the presentation is great. What is she missing?

I don't think anyone here is disagreeing that she has a point. But, the point is blatantly obvious. It's nothing new. If she wants to educate her audience, why not expatiate on the reasons why this trope exists? Delve into cultural norms. Was this a trope that was birthed in Japan and was exported to the United States? Is it universal? If it's universal, that begs some pretty interesting questions.

Is it universal because of rampant cultural stereotypes or is it something innate in all of us? How do cultural norms change over the years? Indeed, has this particular trope evolved?

What was video game culture like in the 80s? Was it something women were even interested in? Who were the main programmers back then? What were they influenced by?

The questions are legion and I would love for someone to do a detailed analysis of them. All we get here is someone pointing out what everyone already knows. It's boring and it feeds into the whole, "all feminists care about is deconstructing every single thing to fit their ideology" trope. Which, by the way, is also boring.

[John Brown]

I don't think she does ignore cultural influences, but I did link to the article talking about how women are treated in Japan and how that might have affected the development of those games.

I think those games might have been influenced by the technological limitations of the time when they were released.

According to this link, a nintendo cartridge could store 1 Megabyte, and super nintendo had 8 Megabytes in each cartridge (compared with PS3's 50GB disks).

With that kind of space, they didn't have the opportunity to create intricate plots, and a "bad guy captured <character's> girlfriend, <character> goes to rescue her" gave a quick and clear motivation.[/quote]

Exactly right! This should near the starting point of this discussion. P.Z. Myers seems to think that it would have been incredibly easy for Nintendo to mod the game to his liking. Well, it's incredibly easy now, but it wasn't in 1981.

[John Brown]

Yeesh. Sorry for messing up the quotes in that last post.

[cunt]

In the follow on comments he asks: "Why is it OK for people 30 years ago to have been tacitly sexist? Was it OK for people a150 years ago to be pro-slavery?"

Shitting hell, I wonder what the average african-american would make of that statement. 30 years ago people didn't get all butt-hurt about the fact they couldn't choose to play as the girl in a specific arcade game. Its was just like slavery!!

[decius]

Developing a multitude of characters - or even two instead of one - costs time and money to the developer.
If I were a committed gamer, I wouldn't want to wait longer and pay more for a new release unless the game truly is enriched by a modification.

The availability of the male version of Lara Croft in Tomb Raider certainly isn't a sensible expectation in my universe. I played it a couple of times and it was just fine as it were.
Do people truly identify with characters in the videogames? It seems like a stupid idea to pander to.

[cunt]

I'd say they probably could have made her a playable character (in donkey kong) with the tech, and without really adding much to the development costs. Nintendo probably just had no idea how absolutely fucking stupid the world would become in 30 years time.