Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

[Remick]

Yes except Tim decided what 'rating' to give each org being cited. He came up with the formula. If the formula is not intentionally biased by him, that doesn't mean it isn't biased by him. The methodology he used to rate everything was arbitrary and biased. Do you dispute this? Do you actually understand how the ratings were given?

“Reasonable people, including my friend Loucas George, may ask, (i) “What gives you the authority to decide what ‘liberal’ and ‘conservative’ mean?” and, related, (ii) “What gives you the authority to decide the issues that measure a person’s liberalness or conservativeness?”
The answer to both questions is that I don’t decide. Instead, I let the Americans for Democratic Action decide for me.
Founded in 1947, the ADA is a self-described liberal interest group. According to its Web site, it is "the nation’s most experienced organization committed to liberal politics, liberal policies, and a liberal future.” Its honorary presidents include Barney Frank (D-Mass.), John Lewis (D-Ga.), George McGovern, and Charles Rangel (D-N.Y.).
Each year it picks twenty or so roll call votes in the U.S. House and Senate, and for each it decides whether the yea or nay position is “correct” from the liberal standpoint. I use those roll calls to construct PQ scores.”

Excerpt From: Tim Groseclose, PhD. “Left Turn.” St. Martin’s Press. iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.

"I used one source that it itself arbitrary and claim that since it is maintained by the opposite side in this discussion I am now free of bias"

[Jonathan]

Please somebody remind me when was it that Eric The Bassist gave this place "the benefit of the doubt"?
http://i.imgur.com/K6XDA1y.png

He was pretty much condemning this place from his first post.

Fix that bitch up.

PS. eric, you are a cunt.

Regards,
A woman

Okay, someone just pointed this out to me and I just wanted to make clear that Erik the Bassist (who came here to post) and UnknownEric (who is me, just your garden variety asshole) are two different people. I came, I saw, I didn't post. Well, until now that is.

Now I return you to your regularly scheduled bullshit.

So where is the misogyny, the hatred of women? Since it is so "blatant" you should have no trouble pointing out specific examples. I'm sure they will come as a surprise to the women who post here that we all hate. Because of the misogyny.

Go ahead.

[cunt]

Someone at Pharyngula is shaking with rage, news at 11.

[Metalogic42]

Hey, Lsuoma,

Could we take the political debate off this thread? It's fucking boring.

I can't force it off , but yes it's fucking, fucking boring.

Guys - please take it somewhere else in its own thread, eh? Remember Israel and all that shit? Worked really well to de-stink up this classy thread...

Yes, at least when I involve people in a three way screeching cluster fuck it's for the noble Idle-esque purpose of annoying people and generally make things irritating for them. On purpose. Because I think that shit is funny.

But this, it's like having Rystphen or whatever the fuck going on about whose girlfriends he would fuck and not give a great goddamn in drawn-out serial form. It's like having drunk P.J. O'Rourke drop into the chair next to you while you are trying to read and drone on about things no one cares about because said things is mostly cobbled together from stuff he half-remembered and half-understood in the first place.

The only good thing about these discussions, is I can set my browser to a moderate auto-scroll and go off to drop a devastatingly meaty shit and then not only wipe my ass, but buff it to a high shine, without missing a thing.

Is this a real thing? If so, I'd find it really useful. How do I do it?

[deLurch]

Please somebody remind me when was it that Eric The Bassist gave this place "the benefit of the doubt"?
[img] http://i.imgur.com/K6XDA1y.png [ /img]
He was pretty much condemning this place from his first post.

Fix that bitch up.
PS. eric, you are a cunt.
Regards,
A woman

Well now, according to the rules he has to "shut up and listen" to you, otherwise he is just another misogynist.

[welch]

Someone at Pharyngula is shaking with rage, news at 11.

You mean FOR A CHANGE?

[Cunning Punt]

Hey, Lsuoma,

Could we take the political debate off this thread? It's fucking boring.

I can't force it off , but yes it's fucking, fucking boring.

Guys - please take it somewhere else in its own thread, eh? Remember Israel and all that shit? Worked really well to de-stink up this classy thread...

Yes, at least when I involve people in a three way screeching cluster fuck it's for the noble Idle-esque purpose of annoying people and generally make things irritating for them. On purpose. Because I think that shit is funny.

But this, it's like having Rystphen or whatever the fuck going on about whose girlfriends he would fuck and not give a great goddamn in drawn-out serial form. It's like having drunk P.J. O'Rourke drop into the chair next to you while you are trying to read and drone on about things no one cares about because said things is mostly cobbled together from stuff he half-remembered and half-understood in the first place.

The only good thing about these discussions, is I can set my browser to a moderate auto-scroll and go off to drop a devastatingly meaty shit and then not only wipe my ass, but buff it to a high shine, without missing a thing.

POIDH.

[ThreeFlangedJavis]

Hey, you nincompoops are discussing American politics and shit, and left and right... then the black Democrat asshole in charge of your crazy country is caught spying on the population at large. Continuing the police started by the white Republican douchebag before him.

Congratulations to all of you: what you are discussing doesn't matter a bit. Left, right, center, above, bellow, they all want to fuck you in the ass.

That's not surprising. Once they got rid of any checks and balances on presidential power - wtf did they call it - supreme executive (not it, I just can't remember the term - unitary executive? Anyone?) - anyone who thought their own guy would not take advantage of it was an idiot. Obama has fairly horrible civil rights and open government records. It's going to take a very unusual individual to get rid of the power - people with that much integrity rarely get into politics, or get very far - or else it will take a major scandal that topples a lot of people. I still say we need to get rid of everyone in office now, establish term limits, and start fresh. Yeah, pipe dream, I know.

Wouldn't trust the US intelligence services as far as I could spit them. There have been allegations by non-US firms that intercepted communications have been shared with their US competition. I wouldn't be at all surprised if European citizens are being monitored just as closely by the US.

[Wonderist]

Folks might want to keep an eye on http://www.michaelnugent.com/2013/06/07 ... nd-emails/

Seems a hornet's nest has been stirred up. Skep tickle's story, the Skeptic Women page, EBW's story would be good effective responses. Don't have time myself right now.

[Lsuoma]

For instance, if FtB explicitly says it will not sell or "transfer" personal information and then goes ahead and publishes it, is there a legal case against them?

It's not illegal in most cases to be a douchy, lying cunt. Like the Huge Zvanatee, Feefles, PeeZus, etc.

[Zenspace]

Hey, Lsuoma,

Could we take the political debate off this thread? It's fucking boring.

I can't force it off , but yes it's fucking, fucking boring.

Guys - please take it somewhere else in its own thread, eh? Remember Israel and all that shit? Worked really well to de-stink up this classy thread...

Yes, at least when I involve people in a three way screeching cluster fuck it's for the noble Idle-esque purpose of annoying people and generally make things irritating for them. On purpose. Because I think that shit is funny.

But this, it's like having Rystphen or whatever the fuck going on about whose girlfriends he would fuck and not give a great goddamn in drawn-out serial form. It's like having drunk P.J. O'Rourke drop into the chair next to you while you are trying to read and drone on about things no one cares about because said things is mostly cobbled together from stuff he half-remembered and half-understood in the first place.

The only good thing about these discussions, is I can set my browser to a moderate auto-scroll and go off to drop a devastatingly meaty shit and then not only wipe my ass, but buff it to a high shine, without missing a thing.

Is this a real thing? If so, I'd find it really useful. How do I do it?

I've always found a good quality cotton towel provided the very best buff and shine experience! Combined with my derrière's natural creamy white complexion it makes for a brilliantly reflective signaling device in a pinch.

As for scrolling, see what happens when you push down on your mouse's scroll whelk and move the cursor up or down while pressing the scroll wheel. This works on my desktop.

[Mykeru]

Someone at Pharyngula is shaking with rage, news at 11.

Damn it, who's stealing my schtick?

place.

The only good thing about these discussions, is I can set my browser to a moderate auto-scroll and go off to drop a devastatingly meaty shit and then not only wipe my ass, but buff it to a high shine, without missing a thing.

Is this a real thing? If so, I'd find it really useful. How do I do it?

Yes, meaty shits are a real thing.

[ThreeFlangedJavis]

I guess that's that.

[img] http://i.imgur.com/LknDNiE.png [img]

Way to go, curriejean. Excellent question to him. I don't suppose he offered a definition of "shithead"?

And we have it from PZ himself: it's only anonymous shitheads who are the problem. Named ones are welcome?

That, and his penchant for seeing socks behind every curtain makes his criteria totally arbitrary.

[Lsuoma]

Okay, someone just pointed this out to me and I just wanted to make clear that Erik the Bassist (who came here to post) and UnknownEric (who is me, just your garden variety asshole) are two different people. I came, I saw, I didn't post. Well, until now that is.

Now I return you to your regularly scheduled bullshit.

You have a registered account here: use it, and don't post anonymously.

[Mykeru]

As for scrolling, see what happens when you push down on your mouse's scroll whelk and move the cursor up or down while pressing the scroll wheel. This works on my desktop.

I tried using a scroll whelk for gaming, but Jesus, it made my mouse pad look like Stephanie Svan did a big fat split on it.

http://www.lancashiremcs.org.uk/gallery/pics/whelk.jpg

[ThreeFlangedJavis]

Wonderist- I'm going to respond to a couple thing here then get off this thread - there have been complaints and I have a feeling we could have a couple beers and talk about this all weekend, boring the shit out of everyone else.

This, I gather, is the gist of your argument "If by 'intelligence community', you mean the ones Bush/Cheney got to say "yes".

If you read the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence Report I cited earlier, you'll see that this isn't true. The "Bush lied, people died" meme is a myth. The intelligence community was not pressured into reporting as they did.

Full disclosure - I'm a veteran of both the Iraq and Afghanistan campaigns. When I was watching Colin Powell testify my unit was packing up to deploy to Kuwait (we didn't actually deploy until later). I studied the initial invasion war plans, they included a "red line" around Baghdad beyond which planners expected Saddam to employ chemical weapons. It has been reported that Saddam's own generals believed that the units to their left or right had WMDs (http://www.defenddemocracy.org/media-hi ... hell-game/).

I've been to the Tuwaitha nuclear research facility in an effort to figure out how to dispense with the 550 tons of yellowcake uranium stored there (I wasn't with the group noted in the article) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baghdad_Nu ... h_Facility

I spent a lot of time with the Kurds - who are very familiar with Saddam's propensity to use WMDs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halabja_poison_gas_attack

Despite all this (and other things I haven't mentioned), I'm still ambivalent about the decision to go to war. I don't believe it was the right decision, but I do believe we did an objectively good thing.

I don't think your beliefs about the war are false - "dredged up by Bush/Cheney in a glaringly *obvious* effort to shift attention away from actual terrorism and towards that old punching bag with oil barrels under his petty throne" - I know they are.


Last point - you bring up evolution. I entirely agree that a good deal of the Republican Party is completely off base on this one. You won't get an argument from me over that. But it also doesn't prove your point. The left ignores facts about social security or Medicare just as easily when it doesn't suit their policy aims.

We could do this all day - you pointing out something the right is wrong on and me doing the opposite. In the end we'll be left with the fact that one party has a vision of how to govern this country, and the other group has a different vision, and each make public policy choices accordingly.

Oh really! No pressure. I seem to remember a number of ex CIA types recounting how their doubts about the existence of WMDs went down like lead ballons. The message they got was clearly to go back and try again.

[Cunt of Personality]

Folks might want to keep an eye on http://www.michaelnugent.com/2013/06/07 ... nd-emails/

Same people, same shit. Blah blah blah my soggy knee drone drone drone poor Ophelia.

[Lsuoma]

Folks might want to keep an eye on http://www.michaelnugent.com/2013/06/07 ... nd-emails/

Same people, same shit. Blah blah blah my soggy knee drone drone drone poor Ophelia.

The trajectory of the comments was sadly predictable. OCC alerted her flying-monkey-in-chief, colon, to whip up the faux-outrage and set the Threat Narrative Producer to 11...

[tina]

Folks might want to keep an eye on http://www.michaelnugent.com/2013/06/07 ... nd-emails/

Same people, same shit Blah blah blah my soggy knee drone drone drone poor Ophelia.

The trajectory of the comments was sadly predictable. OCC alerted her flying-monkey-in-chief, colon, to whip up the faux-outrage and set the Threat Narrative Producer to 11...

Jeeeezus, they're boring. I'm sure Nuggets security will be adequate. Plenty of smelling salts and couches, nevertheless.

PS why is Eric the B such a misogynistic dick head? He should listen to actually grown up women more..

[Stretchycheese]

Folks might want to keep an eye on http://www.michaelnugent.com/2013/06/07 ... nd-emails/

Same people, same shit. Blah blah blah my soggy knee drone drone drone poor Ophelia.

I saw this utterly absurd statement by Matt Penfold:

I think you are a bit confused, since the dishonesty came from SisterChromatid. And actually, the likes of the slymepit do not consider women to be people, at least not in the same way men are people. The slymepit regards women as subservient to men. It is not only the slymepit of course. Michael Shermer has said that women are not the equal of men in the atheist/sceptic community when he insisted that being at the forefront of the movement was a “guy thing”. Ron Lindsay was hardly treating women as people too in his opening speech at the recent CFI Women in Secularism conference. Need I point out home many in the atheist/sceptic movement think that Rebeccca Watson should just accept being proposition for sex in a lift at 4am, or who saw nothing wrong in what Thunderfoot has had to say on the role of women ?

So, actually, no. Far too many people do not regard women as people too.

I had to respond to it. Here's what I said:

Matt, given the significant number of women in the Slymepit and over 120 signatures (so far) in the recent Skeptic Women statement (which expressed support for Lindsay), you’ve put yourself in the rather absurd position of (a man) claiming that a large number of women atheist and skeptics don’t think they’re people. Women skeptics who have opposed the FTB/Skepchick party line also happen to be intelligent, independent and very successful women as well. The idea that these women don’t think they’re people or believe they’re subservient to men is absolute wingnuttery.

Whatever happened to “listen to women!” ? By “women” do you mean “women who agree with my particular ideology”? I think your side of the schism has lost trying to frame this conflict as a “men vs. women” or “evil misogynists vs. righteous feminists.” Instead, it more resembles rationalists vs. dogmatists or skeptics vs. gender identity ideologues.

[welch]

Here's the thing with derps like Penfold, and it comes from a discussion my boss and i were having about talking about abortion. He said:

On the anti- side, you have people who want to treat abortion like murder, ban birth control or any form of family planning, let the mother die to save the fetus, and investigate every miscarriage like it was a crime scene. On the pro- side, you have people who think abortion is a sacrament, and gift certificates for free ones should be available in boxes of tide, and it should be the only surgical procedure that requires almost no patient evaluation before or after.

These people are idiots, and I'm not going to talk to them, or listen to what they say in a serious manner for any reason. I don't listen to idiots. The people I'm talking to are the non-idiots who, while not as loud, are the majority.

Penfold is an idiot, so are the FC(n), and I refuse to see why I should treat them as anything but or respond to them in anything resembling a serious manner. Should they wish to stop being idiots, I'll change my views on talking with them, but not before.

[tina]

Folks might want to keep an eye on http://www.michaelnugent.com/2013/06/07 ... nd-emails/

Same people, same shit. Blah blah blah my soggy knee drone drone drone poor Ophelia.

I saw this utterly absurd statement by Matt Penfold:

I think you are a bit confused, since the dishonesty came from SisterChromatid. And actually, the likes of the slymepit do not consider women to be people, at least not in the same way men are people. The slymepit regards women as subservient to men. It is not only the slymepit of course. Michael Shermer has said that women are not the equal of men in the atheist/sceptic community when he insisted that being at the forefront of the movement was a “guy thing”. Ron Lindsay was hardly treating women as people too in his opening speech at the recent CFI Women in Secularism conference. Need I point out home many in the atheist/sceptic movement think that Rebeccca Watson should just accept being proposition for sex in a lift at 4am, or who saw nothing wrong in what Thunderfoot has had to say on the role of women ?

So, actually, no. Far too many people do not regard women as people too.

I had to respond to it. Here's what I said:

Matt, given the significant number of women in the Slymepit and over 120 signatures (so far) in the recent Skeptic Women statement (which expressed support for Lindsay), you’ve put yourself in the rather absurd position of (a man) claiming that a large number of women atheist and skeptics don’t think they’re people. Women skeptics who have opposed the FTB/Skepchick party line also happen to be intelligent, independent and very successful women as well. The idea that these women don’t think they’re people or believe they’re subservient to men is absolute wingnuttery.

Whatever happened to “listen to women!” ? By “women” do you mean “women who agree with my particular ideology”? I think your side of the schism has lost trying to frame this conflict as a “men vs. women” or “evil misogynists vs. righteous feminists.” Instead, it more resembles rationalists vs. dogmatists or skeptics vs. gender identity ideologues.

Penfold should go back to Trumptown. How are these people not embarrassing themselves to death? How many cases have been bought before the courts for assault, slander, defamation, libel, restraining orders issued etc etc in the last couple years? Stir should be full of pitters by now.

by a non person :violin:

[Southern]

And this is fucking hilarious:

This guy is oficially my hero.

[H. Korban]

Feminism in Islam should be done by the women in Islam. The Westerners can all just go fuck off as far as I am concerned.

I agree.

Islam provides unique challenges to any reform movement. I am part of a Islamic progressive movement and in my experience it is very hard to get yourself taken seriously if you push your lack of belief too hard. It is best to encourage Muslim women to take control of their life without implying that they need to discard their religion to do so. And, of course, they do not. The example of Ismailis clearly shows that one can remain within the Islamic fold yet adopt a liberal outlook to life. It is harder at present to imagine this occurring in Sunni Islam, but it can be done. But it will not happen by intervention of Western feminists, specially those tainted with hand-wringing post-modernisim.

I will give an example of Islamic feminists, although they they not think or call themselves that. Several women in my community have started a drive to financially support education for girls. Not on a large scale, but a few families at a time. What this means is that they go around collecting small funds from ordinary people so they can pay school fees, buy uniforms and textbooks and meals for girls. They make sure that the family that use this facility are actually sending their kids to school and not siphoning off for other purposes. This has been going on for years and the positive effects are obvious: many of these girls go to college and some get advanced degrees, and even jobs.

This type of grass-root feminists are needed, and not the type that gather in expensive $250/night hotels and party and drink and all night. I can not imagine any of the Waston or her Western skepchick-types doing anything useful for Muslim women. Perhaps they think that giving snarky talks is enough. It is not. Real, grassroots work is needed if one wants to bring about change.

Personally, my experience is that going topless or naked in a Muslim country or mosque is not going to help anyone. It betrays very serious lack of understanding of Islam and its attendant culture. Of course, it can get you to headline in major news outlets in the world, but the real impact of Muslim women's lives is zero.

Of course, that does not mean one should not give talks or write blogs/essays or even strip naked. But this needs to be kept in perspective.

[codelette]

Here's the thing with derps like Penfold, and it comes from a discussion my boss and i were having about talking about abortion. He said:

On the anti- side, you have people who want to treat abortion like murder, ban birth control or any form of family planning, let the mother die to save the fetus, and investigate every miscarriage like it was a crime scene. On the pro- side, you have people who think abortion is a sacrament, and gift certificates for free ones should be available in boxes of tide, and it should be the only surgical procedure that requires almost no patient evaluation before or after.

These people are idiots, and I'm not going to talk to them, or listen to what they say in a serious manner for any reason. I don't listen to idiots. The people I'm talking to are the non-idiots who, while not as loud, are the majority.

Penfold is an idiot, so are the FC(n), and I refuse to see why I should treat them as anything but or respond to them in anything resembling a serious manner. Should they wish to stop being idiots, I'll change my views on talking with them, but not before.

Awesome opinion by your boss.
The anti-abortion camp is easy to dismiss by me. The pro-abortion camp described by your boss pisses me off. Specially when the discussion about sonograms and IU ultrasounds come up. Stupid arguments I hear usually have to do with emotional distress the woman may experience when loking at the fetus. I dunno, that reads like an argument that a pro-lifer will use.

[Eskarina]

Here's the thing with derps like Penfold, and it comes from a discussion my boss and i were having about talking about abortion. He said:

On the anti- side, you have people who want to treat abortion like murder, ban birth control or any form of family planning, let the mother die to save the fetus, and investigate every miscarriage like it was a crime scene. On the pro- side, you have people who think abortion is a sacrament, and gift certificates for free ones should be available in boxes of tide, and it should be the only surgical procedure that requires almost no patient evaluation before or after.

These people are idiots, and I'm not going to talk to them, or listen to what they say in a serious manner for any reason. I don't listen to idiots. The people I'm talking to are the non-idiots who, while not as loud, are the majority.

Penfold is an idiot, so are the FC(n), and I refuse to see why I should treat them as anything but or respond to them in anything resembling a serious manner. Should they wish to stop being idiots, I'll change my views on talking with them, but not before.

I wrote three replies to Penfold's absurdity pointing out his hypocrisy and sloppy thinking and canned each of them because it's really an exercise in futilty. He won't get it, those on "his" side won't get it and for the rest it's preaching to the choir.

[katamari Damassi]

New post by Michael Nugent:

http://www.michaelnugent.com/2013/06/07 ... nd-emails/

[img] http://www.sectalk.com/board/public/imp ... point1.jpg [img]

Obviously I could be reading this wrong, and he may well not want people trying to second-guess, but here's what I'm seeing:

He welcomes Justin (and maybe others in some kind of similar boat):

Please do not attribute malign motivations to any person who is attending the conference.

Interesting phrasing here, particularly the lack of a comma between "dialogue" and "who"

I have had the pleasure of working with moderators and participants in the online dialogue who have been acting with integrity and reason despite unfair criticism of them from people opposed to dialogue.

He's been doing some background reading, and plans to talk with Ophelia Benson and PZ Myers:

I have read a great deal of the online material that shows how various issues have both escalated and became entangled with each other in recent years. And I want to add to my understanding by talking to some of the people involved when they come to Dublin, because I think that face to face discussion can be more useful than online discussion.

Peezus will be an obsequious, pudgy little toad to Micheal's face and as soon as he's back in Frostbite Falls he'll vomit bile all over him in his blog. He'll still be a pudgy little toad though, there's nothing he can do about that.

[katamari Damassi]

Penfold knows he's full of shit, he's just trying to poison the well in Dublin.

[Dave2]

The anti-abortion camp is easy to dismiss by me. The pro-abortion camp described by your boss pisses me off. Specially when the discussion about sonograms and IU ultrasounds come up. Stupid arguments I hear usually have to do with emotional distress the woman may experience when loking at the fetus. I dunno, that reads like an argument that a pro-lifer will use.

I'm not so sure. Where pre-op procedures are necessary for the success of the operation I think it's clearly silly to complain. But when an individual is being subjected to procedures just so they give the operation more thought it seems patronising.

So beyond possible emotional distress it's also a drain on time, maybe money, its having another set of doctors poking around and so on.

[welch]

Of course Penfold has to say something that is factually incorrect and trivially proven so, which means I have to set good sense aside and tell him that, in no uncertain terms:

A Voice for Men has be described by the Southern Poverty Law Centre as a hate group.

Factually incorrect. Not that facts matter to you, you have your dogma to keep you warm, but here, the SPLC on the matter. From http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2012/05/1 ... activists/:

It should be mentioned that the SPLC did not label MRAs as members of a hate movement; nor did our article claim that the grievances they air on their websites – false rape accusations, ruinous divorce settlements and the like – are all without merit. But we did call out specific examples of misogyny and the threat, overt or implicit, of violence.

I think that’s fair. While the MRM has a number of valid points, such as inequities in the justice system in areas such as divorce/childcare laws, and sentencing for violent crimes, it also has a number of incredibly stupid and misogynistic derps that make a lot of noise, and do utterly indefensible things like that idiotic register-her site. (and before the “YEAH, BUT YOU AGREE WITH IT IN THE ‘PIT” idiocy commences, allow me to shut it down):

viewtopic.php?f=31&t=266&p=67932&hilit= ... ns+#p67932

viewtopic.php?f=31&t=259&p=64196&hilit= ... ns+#p64196

viewtopic.php?f=31&t=259&p=64241&hilit= ... ns+#p64241

However, just like it is unfair to use only the most radfem opinions as a representation of feminism en toto, it is equally unfair to tar everyone in the MRM as a misogynist who thinks women aren’t people, and it is factually incorrect to say the SPLC calls AvFM a hate group when the SPLC says they do not. You can have your own opinions, but you don’t get to have your own facts, and I think the SPLC is in fact, authoritative on what it says and how it categorizes things over you.

I personally have no real use for AvFM, because it seems to be naught but petty revenge fantasies and blazing stupidity. Gosh, how horrible. A guy smacks his kid so hard he makes her bleed, and he’s shocked, shocked I tell you to find the authorities get all stern and start throwing around terms like “abuse” and “assault”. What kind of world is it when you can’t just smack the crap out of a little kid?

But, stupid group and hate group are two different things.

[welch]

by a non person :violin:

Hard to tell from the size of your avatar, but is that Maureen O'Sullivan?

[another lurker]

The anti-abortion camp is easy to dismiss by me. The pro-abortion camp described by your boss pisses me off. Specially when the discussion about sonograms and IU ultrasounds come up. Stupid arguments I hear usually have to do with emotional distress the woman may experience when loking at the fetus. I dunno, that reads like an argument that a pro-lifer will use.

I'm not so sure. Where pre-op procedures are necessary for the success of the operation I think it's clearly silly to complain. But when an individual is being subjected to procedures just so they give the operation more thought it seems patronising.

So beyond possible emotional distress it's also a drain on time, maybe money, its having another set of doctors poking around and so on.

And these exams, and added waiting times, are all medically unnecessary.

Plus, the women have to pay extra, and take extra days off work, and lose pay, and often travel hundreds of miles, all to meet these new 'guidelines'.

Anti-choice politicians are passing these laws in order to make it even more difficult for women, especially low income women, to get an early, affordable, abortion.

Another 'reasonable' sounding tactic is to force abortion clinic physicians to get admitting privileges at local hospitals - which, unsurprisingly, get denied! And to pass all sorts of 'safety' rules for abortion clinics that are so expensive that the clinic has no choice but to shut down.

These anti-choice politicians are also trying really hard to make medical abortion - within the first few weeks of pregnancy - to be as difficult and expensive to get as possible. What they want to do is make an early abortion nearly impossible, and to incrementally lower the 'viability' requirement to 20 weeks and lower, in order to basically make it impossible to get an abortion unless a woman has money and can travel for an abortion.

[curriejean]

I'm a zoolongist(sp?)

"Absoloute" and "indignance" - be honest now, you weren't going for a rare form to add flair, you just forgot about "indignation" - absolutely ruined the little humor in your mock-learned tirade, for me; these need to be perfect to keep up the theme. In other words: flee like you promised, cunt and go weed out some more signatures.

Yep, forgot about 'indignation,' also accidentally a word near the end and used 'herd' when I should have used 'flock.' When the preview button submits instead, you've just gotta roll with it.

[Karmakin]

The anti-abortion camp is easy to dismiss by me. The pro-abortion camp described by your boss pisses me off. Specially when the discussion about sonograms and IU ultrasounds come up. Stupid arguments I hear usually have to do with emotional distress the woman may experience when loking at the fetus. I dunno, that reads like an argument that a pro-lifer will use.

I'm not so sure. Where pre-op procedures are necessary for the success of the operation I think it's clearly silly to complain. But when an individual is being subjected to procedures just so they give the operation more thought it seems patronising.

So beyond possible emotional distress it's also a drain on time, maybe money, its having another set of doctors poking around and so on.

Well, it's FUD, basically. It's meant to instill fear, uncertainty and doubt. Needless to say, I think abortion is a tough enough decision without making it even tougher.

[Karmakin]

The anti-abortion camp is easy to dismiss by me. The pro-abortion camp described by your boss pisses me off. Specially when the discussion about sonograms and IU ultrasounds come up. Stupid arguments I hear usually have to do with emotional distress the woman may experience when loking at the fetus. I dunno, that reads like an argument that a pro-lifer will use.

I'm not so sure. Where pre-op procedures are necessary for the success of the operation I think it's clearly silly to complain. But when an individual is being subjected to procedures just so they give the operation more thought it seems patronising.

So beyond possible emotional distress it's also a drain on time, maybe money, its having another set of doctors poking around and so on.

And these exams, and added waiting times, are all medically unnecessary.

Plus, the women have to pay extra, and take extra days off work, and lose pay, and often travel hundreds of miles, all to meet these new 'guidelines'.

Anti-choice politicians are passing these laws in order to make it even more difficult for women, especially low income women, to get an early, affordable, abortion.

Another 'reasonable' sounding tactic is to force abortion clinic physicians to get admitting privileges at local hospitals - which, unsurprisingly, get denied! And to pass all sorts of 'safety' rules for abortion clinics that are so expensive that the clinic has no choice but to shut down.

These anti-choice politicians are also trying really hard to make medical abortion - within the first few weeks of pregnancy - to be as difficult and expensive to get as possible. What they want to do is make an early abortion nearly impossible, and to incrementally lower the 'viability' requirement to 20 weeks and lower, in order to basically make it impossible to get an abortion unless a woman has money and can travel for an abortion.

This as well. This actually makes abortion a class issue, not just a gender issue....although good luck getting the privileged SJW's to recognize that part of it.

[welch]

The anti-abortion camp is easy to dismiss by me. The pro-abortion camp described by your boss pisses me off. Specially when the discussion about sonograms and IU ultrasounds come up. Stupid arguments I hear usually have to do with emotional distress the woman may experience when loking at the fetus. I dunno, that reads like an argument that a pro-lifer will use.

I'm not so sure. Where pre-op procedures are necessary for the success of the operation I think it's clearly silly to complain. But when an individual is being subjected to procedures just so they give the operation more thought it seems patronising.

So beyond possible emotional distress it's also a drain on time, maybe money, its having another set of doctors poking around and so on.

And these exams, and added waiting times, are all medically unnecessary.

Plus, the women have to pay extra, and take extra days off work, and lose pay, and often travel hundreds of miles, all to meet these new 'guidelines'.

Anti-choice politicians are passing these laws in order to make it even more difficult for women, especially low income women, to get an early, affordable, abortion.

Another 'reasonable' sounding tactic is to force abortion clinic physicians to get admitting privileges at local hospitals - which, unsurprisingly, get denied! And to pass all sorts of 'safety' rules for abortion clinics that are so expensive that the clinic has no choice but to shut down.

These anti-choice politicians are also trying really hard to make medical abortion - within the first few weeks of pregnancy - to be as difficult and expensive to get as possible. What they want to do is make an early abortion nearly impossible, and to incrementally lower the 'viability' requirement to 20 weeks and lower, in order to basically make it impossible to get an abortion unless a woman has money and can travel for an abortion.

This as well. This actually makes abortion a class issue, not just a gender issue....although good luck getting the privileged SJW's to recognize that part of it.

It was always a class issue. Pre-Roe v. Wade, women of means could get an abortion with ease. They would spend money to travel to another country where Abortion was legal, and get one. Then travel home. The only "barrier" to them was the traveling. Making abortion illegal in this country will not do *dick* to stop women with the money to get one elsewhere from getting one. Birth control illegal in this country? Get it in another country. Done.

The women who are fucked over by the effort to re-criminalize abortion are the women who can't afford jaunts to wherever. So yeah. This is a class issue more than a gender issue.

[agarybuseychristmas]

This as well. This actually makes abortion a class issue, not just a gender issue....although good luck getting the privileged SJW's to recognize that part of it.

They'll probably frame it as racial.

[treestump]

was curious if anybody has the original content that was on this page? is there a freezepage or something of it somewhere as the one here has been deleted: http://pharyngula.wikia.com/wiki/Phil_Giordana

[jjbinx007]

was curious if anybody has the original content that was on this page? is there a freezepage or something of it somewhere as the one here has been deleted: http://pharyngula.wikia.com/wiki/Phil_Giordana

http://web.archive.org/web/201110300423 ... l_Giordana

[Outwest]

Folks might want to keep an eye on http://www.michaelnugent.com/2013/06/07 ... nd-emails/

Seems a hornet's nest has been stirred up. Skep tickle's story, the Skeptic Women page, EBW's story would be good effective responses. Don't have time myself right now.

It's really funny, no SAD how the FTB defenders will deny any wrongdoing from their masters. I would place a bet right now that if one of the FTB'ers was caught on video doing something illegal, they would say that it was not true. Or try to blame it on people here.

[cunt]

The anti-abortion camp is easy to dismiss by me. The pro-abortion camp described by your boss pisses me off. Specially when the discussion about sonograms and IU ultrasounds come up. Stupid arguments I hear usually have to do with emotional distress the woman may experience when loking at the fetus. I dunno, that reads like an argument that a pro-lifer will use.

I'm not so sure. Where pre-op procedures are necessary for the success of the operation I think it's clearly silly to complain. But when an individual is being subjected to procedures just so they give the operation more thought it seems patronising.

So beyond possible emotional distress it's also a drain on time, maybe money, its having another set of doctors poking around and so on.

And these exams, and added waiting times, are all medically unnecessary.

Plus, the women have to pay extra, and take extra days off work, and lose pay, and often travel hundreds of miles, all to meet these new 'guidelines'.

Anti-choice politicians are passing these laws in order to make it even more difficult for women, especially low income women, to get an early, affordable, abortion.

Another 'reasonable' sounding tactic is to force abortion clinic physicians to get admitting privileges at local hospitals - which, unsurprisingly, get denied! And to pass all sorts of 'safety' rules for abortion clinics that are so expensive that the clinic has no choice but to shut down.

These anti-choice politicians are also trying really hard to make medical abortion - within the first few weeks of pregnancy - to be as difficult and expensive to get as possible. What they want to do is make an early abortion nearly impossible, and to incrementally lower the 'viability' requirement to 20 weeks and lower, in order to basically make it impossible to get an abortion unless a woman has money and can travel for an abortion.

This as well. This actually makes abortion a class issue, not just a gender issue....although good luck getting the privileged SJW's to recognize that part of it.

It was always a class issue. Pre-Roe v. Wade, women of means could get an abortion with ease. They would spend money to travel to another country where Abortion was legal, and get one. Then travel home. The only "barrier" to them was the traveling. Making abortion illegal in this country will not do *dick* to stop women with the money to get one elsewhere from getting one. Birth control illegal in this country? Get it in another country. Done.

The women who are fucked over by the effort to re-criminalize abortion are the women who can't afford jaunts to wherever. So yeah. This is a class issue more than a gender issue.

So that's pretty much all women then? 80% of women, 90%? How many women could really afford to get out of the country and pay for a procedure without it fucking them (and their families) up financially for years?

Obviously class is a part of it, but to call it a "class issue". Nah.

[cunt]

Actually it still fucking amazes me that you cunts haven't managed to set up a system of universal health-care. This is shit that Britain managed when it was a bombed out, flat-broke husk.

[Remick]

Actually it still fucking amazes me that you cunts haven't managed to set up a system of universal health-care. This is shit that Britain managed when it was a bombed out, flat-broke husk.

It is incredibly easy to convince the American voter to vote against their actual interest.

This is pretty much how it goes....

[youtube]0YOh-rpvjYg[/youtube]

[jjbinx007]

Blast from the past...comments section is also interesting:

http://web.archive.org/web/201111030409 ... _vegas.php

[Outwest]

And this is fucking hilarious:

This guy is oficially my hero.

And he's absolutely right. Who gives a shit?

[Ape+lust]

http://i.imgur.com/qCtRImo.jpg

[welch]

I'm not so sure. Where pre-op procedures are necessary for the success of the operation I think it's clearly silly to complain. But when an individual is being subjected to procedures just so they give the operation more thought it seems patronising.

So beyond possible emotional distress it's also a drain on time, maybe money, its having another set of doctors poking around and so on.

And these exams, and added waiting times, are all medically unnecessary.

Plus, the women have to pay extra, and take extra days off work, and lose pay, and often travel hundreds of miles, all to meet these new 'guidelines'.

Anti-choice politicians are passing these laws in order to make it even more difficult for women, especially low income women, to get an early, affordable, abortion.

Another 'reasonable' sounding tactic is to force abortion clinic physicians to get admitting privileges at local hospitals - which, unsurprisingly, get denied! And to pass all sorts of 'safety' rules for abortion clinics that are so expensive that the clinic has no choice but to shut down.

These anti-choice politicians are also trying really hard to make medical abortion - within the first few weeks of pregnancy - to be as difficult and expensive to get as possible. What they want to do is make an early abortion nearly impossible, and to incrementally lower the 'viability' requirement to 20 weeks and lower, in order to basically make it impossible to get an abortion unless a woman has money and can travel for an abortion.

This as well. This actually makes abortion a class issue, not just a gender issue....although good luck getting the privileged SJW's to recognize that part of it.

It was always a class issue. Pre-Roe v. Wade, women of means could get an abortion with ease. They would spend money to travel to another country where Abortion was legal, and get one. Then travel home. The only "barrier" to them was the traveling. Making abortion illegal in this country will not do *dick* to stop women with the money to get one elsewhere from getting one. Birth control illegal in this country? Get it in another country. Done.

The women who are fucked over by the effort to re-criminalize abortion are the women who can't afford jaunts to wherever. So yeah. This is a class issue more than a gender issue.

So that's pretty much all women then? 80% of women, 90%? How many women could really afford to get out of the country and pay for a procedure without it fucking them (and their families) up financially for years?

Obviously class is a part of it, but to call it a "class issue". Nah.

Um, I know this is a surprise, but going to Canada is not out of the realm of possibility for 80%-90% of women. Especially women with those weird "job" things who maybe have "savings". In addition, a first trimester in-clinic abortion at say a Planned Parenthood center coasts between $300 and $950. (http://www.plannedparenthood.org/health ... s-4359.asp)

Later period abortions cost more, but don't scale vertically by any means. Those are US costs, but Canadian costs seem to track that closely. (http://abortionincanada.ca/funding/)

Average cost of a plane ticket to say Toronto? From Tallahassee, it's under $600. (delta.com)

So, depending on the situation, it is not unrealistic to be able to travel to Canada, even if you don't drive, get a safe, legal abortion, and come home for right around $2K US. That's not change in the couch cushions money, but it's not going to drive you into debt for the rest of your life either. Abortion, moral issues aside, is a fairly simple procedure. It's not cancer treatment.

[Eskarina]

Actually it still fucking amazes me that you cunts haven't managed to set up a system of universal health-care. This is shit that Britain managed when it was a bombed out, flat-broke husk.

It is incredibly easy to convince the American voter to vote against their actual interest.

This is pretty much how it goes....

[youtube]0YOh-rpvjYg[/youtube]

Plus the fervent dislike of a good portion of them for seemingly having to pay for the treatment of someone else's diseases.

The fact that, in any universal healthcare system that I know of, other people will pay for the treatment of their diseases somehow escapes them. Or isn't really properly explained. Or they are too dumb to understand. Or....

Anyways, I'm not going to pay for your broken leg, Mister.

Asking for donations for cancer treatment seems to be perfectly okay, though.

But organised solidarity seems to work much better. That's at least my experience.

[zenbabe]

Blast from the past...comments section is also interesting:

http://web.archive.org/web/201111030409 ... _vegas.php

Noo.. damn you jjbinx007, damn you to hell.
Was just meandering through this post and the comments, enjoying the history, and you blast out an ERV post+comments that is denser than a neutron star.

[Wonderist]

I wrote three replies to Penfold's absurdity pointing out his hypocrisy and sloppy thinking and canned each of them because it's really an exercise in futilty. He won't get it, those on "his" side won't get it and for the rest it's preaching to the choir.

Don't write it for him. Yes, that would be pointless. Write it for everyone else who might possibly read the blog. Specifically, those who are on the fence or don't know the issues yet. It's much easier to write for reasonable people, even if it's addressed toward the unreasonable person, because you'll be able to maintain some sense that your post could do some good. And it will. Nugent's had a 180, it seems, even if he maintains strict neutrality in his posts. Ron Lindsay's been getting more involved. These are the people who've been silently watching and reading and thinking, "Ya know, there's a bigger issue to this whole thing than just bickering between Penfolds and Eskarinas." Those are the folks to write for. This is a long process. The analogies to deconversions of theists is not a bad analogy. Slowly but surely people are waking up. A year ago slymepit.com didn't even exist yet! Things were looking pretty dismal. Things are changing, folks. A constant, steady pressure of *reason* against *unreason* is what will shift the balance in the long run. Worked for atheism, will work for this.

[Karmakin]

Um, I know this is a surprise, but going to Canada is not out of the realm of possibility for 80%-90% of women. Especially women with those weird "job" things who maybe have "savings". In addition, a first trimester in-clinic abortion at say a Planned Parenthood center coasts between $300 and $950. (http://www.plannedparenthood.org/health ... s-4359.asp)

Later period abortions cost more, but don't scale vertically by any means. Those are US costs, but Canadian costs seem to track that closely. (http://abortionincanada.ca/funding/)

Average cost of a plane ticket to say Toronto? From Tallahassee, it's under $600. (delta.com)

So, depending on the situation, it is not unrealistic to be able to travel to Canada, even if you don't drive, get a safe, legal abortion, and come home for right around $2K US. That's not change in the couch cushions money, but it's not going to drive you into debt for the rest of your life either. Abortion, moral issues aside, is a fairly simple procedure. It's not cancer treatment.

I would add on top of that that it's not even just the money that's a problem, for lower-class working people it's the matter of getting the time off in advance to be able to schedule it. I know that at my workplace, vacation time (and I guess we're more lucky than most to have it) is often not denied/approved until the day before IF that. As far as I know, that's pretty standard in the lower classes.

[cunt]

Really, because I'd guess that $2k american is a significant portion of most peoples salaries.

[welch]

Um, I know this is a surprise, but going to Canada is not out of the realm of possibility for 80%-90% of women. Especially women with those weird "job" things who maybe have "savings". In addition, a first trimester in-clinic abortion at say a Planned Parenthood center coasts between $300 and $950. (http://www.plannedparenthood.org/health ... s-4359.asp)

Later period abortions cost more, but don't scale vertically by any means. Those are US costs, but Canadian costs seem to track that closely. (http://abortionincanada.ca/funding/)

Average cost of a plane ticket to say Toronto? From Tallahassee, it's under $600. (delta.com)

So, depending on the situation, it is not unrealistic to be able to travel to Canada, even if you don't drive, get a safe, legal abortion, and come home for right around $2K US. That's not change in the couch cushions money, but it's not going to drive you into debt for the rest of your life either. Abortion, moral issues aside, is a fairly simple procedure. It's not cancer treatment.

I would add on top of that that it's not even just the money that's a problem, for lower-class working people it's the matter of getting the time off in advance to be able to schedule it. I know that at my workplace, vacation time (and I guess we're more lucky than most to have it) is often not denied/approved until the day before IF that. As far as I know, that's pretty standard in the lower classes.

Yep. When filling the car you need to get to work with gas is a real expense, even $2K is a lot of money, and as you point out, that's assuming you can get the time off. Not always a given.

[Metalogic42]

Blast from the past...comments section is also interesting:

http://web.archive.org/web/201111030409 ... _vegas.php

Whoa...

Aratina Cage, if you really don't like smears and spin, why exactly are you complaining about here of all places? Come off it, we all know Pharyngula threads live off shit being thrown all the time, character assassinations, smears, spin till it leaves Earth-orbit, etc. And that's not even before we get onto the bizarro antics of skeptifem et al.

Seriously, this hypocritical shit being peddled -- that here is supposed to be some kind of nasty swamp full of MRA alligators -- is just so bullshit. One of the greatest ironies is to see the sudden turn-about by people who were screaming about tone-trolling up till a month ago, and are now all allegedly in favor of respect, yada yada yada.

And I wonder just how long PZ can continue to be two-faced about Dawkins. Almost anyone here is not saying anything beyond what Dawkins meant, and yet PZ is desperately trying to portray Dawkins as merely mistaken while he portrays others as MRFA/KKK/NRA/whatevah members.

Posted by: Gurdur

Quite at odds with his current attitude.

[Wonderist]

The anti-abortion camp is easy to dismiss by me. The pro-abortion camp described by your boss pisses me off. Specially when the discussion about sonograms and IU ultrasounds come up. Stupid arguments I hear usually have to do with emotional distress the woman may experience when loking at the fetus. I dunno, that reads like an argument that a pro-lifer will use.

I'm not so sure. Where pre-op procedures are necessary for the success of the operation I think it's clearly silly to complain. But when an individual is being subjected to procedures just so they give the operation more thought it seems patronising.

So beyond possible emotional distress it's also a drain on time, maybe money, its having another set of doctors poking around and so on.

And these exams, and added waiting times, are all medically unnecessary.

Plus, the women have to pay extra, and take extra days off work, and lose pay, and often travel hundreds of miles, all to meet these new 'guidelines'.

Anti-choice politicians are passing these laws in order to make it even more difficult for women, especially low income women, to get an early, affordable, abortion.

Reminds me a lot of how some right-wing upper class racists in red states have tried to impose super-strict voter ID and registration procedures to block out poor and minority groups from having easy access to voting.

Could you imagine if the abortion thing were framed in terms of block-the-vote shenanigans? I could imagine some political cartoon, "Now, now, Negro. We'll just have to stick this up your rectum so you can have a good long hard think about if you *REALLY* want to vote."

[Remick]

Really, because I'd guess that $2k american is a significant portion of most peoples salaries.

Compared to the cost of having the child and then raising it? People can find a way.


Why is this even relevant, Abortion will not be re-illegalized. Any reversal would at most return the decision to the states(which would still be bad).

The bigger issue is for the poor who can't afford the travel, and the young, who might not have the ability for other reasons.

[welch]

Really, because I'd guess that $2k american is a significant portion of most peoples salaries.

Oh stop being a cunt just because that's your nickname. As I said, it's not pocket change, but your assertion that it is beyond the range for all but the top 10-20% of wage earners and will "fuck them up for years" is stupid, and factually incorrect. A $2K expense is something that many people manage on a regular basis, all without being rich.

Now you're what, trying to move the goalpost to a single paycheck?

You made a statement that was factually wrong.

[Zenspace]

Blast from the past...comments section is also interesting:

http://web.archive.org/web/201111030409 ... _vegas.php

Noo.. damn you jjbinx007, damn you to hell.
Was just meandering through this post and the comments, enjoying the history, and you blast out an ERV post+comments that is denser than a neutron star.

:lol:

I clicked that link and it was like being sucked into a huge black hole. 2006 comments! :shock:

I was fortunate to not be participating in any of the online atheist/skeptic stuff back then, so missed the whole show. What is really interesting in the comments there is you can see all the recognizable players starting to gravitate towards their present orbits.

Fascinating.

[Wonderist]

Blast from the past...comments section is also interesting:

http://web.archive.org/web/201111030409 ... _vegas.php

Whoa...

Aratina Cage, if you really don't like smears and spin, why exactly are you complaining about here of all places? Come off it, we all know Pharyngula threads live off shit being thrown all the time, character assassinations, smears, spin till it leaves Earth-orbit, etc. And that's not even before we get onto the bizarro antics of skeptifem et al.

Seriously, this hypocritical shit being peddled -- that here is supposed to be some kind of nasty swamp full of MRA alligators -- is just so bullshit. One of the greatest ironies is to see the sudden turn-about by people who were screaming about tone-trolling up till a month ago, and are now all allegedly in favor of respect, yada yada yada.

And I wonder just how long PZ can continue to be two-faced about Dawkins. Almost anyone here is not saying anything beyond what Dawkins meant, and yet PZ is desperately trying to portray Dawkins as merely mistaken while he portrays others as MRFA/KKK/NRA/whatevah members.

Posted by: Gurdur

Quite at odds with his current attitude.

Gurdur has mentioned that he maintains strict polite/civil tone for his Heathen Hub and other related projects, which is quite understandable, IMO. Outside that venue, I imagine he's like anyone else and likes to let loose. The analogy of this place to a pub continues to be a good analogy. I also adapt my 'tone' to the venue. You won't find me talking about piles of shit with cherries on top on my Facebook profile or on Nugent's blog, for example, but why censor myself in one of the few places left online where atheists/skeptics can let loose?

[Tony Parsehole]

Do you know what I miss?.....Ragging on Greg Laden. What happened with all that?