Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

[welch]

No more than any other professor holding a far-extreme point of view. But i'm sure that RadFem is worse than allllll the others. QUICK! DUCK! MCKINNON'S RIGHT BEHIND YOU! RUNNNNNN!

You seriously think that profs like MacKinnon and Sjoberg who incorporate in their work Radical Feminist ideology of the type Dworkin promoted are harmless?

Perhaps they would be if no one paid any attention to them. But that is not the case. The people who are allowing themselves to be influenced by them are law makers and set government policy.

Have you read any of the sources? Read other opinions? Looked into anything on your own?

I've been reading up on that lot for decades now. I still have yet to see the proof of the massive ACTUAL HARM you say she's doing. Fuck, the way you put it, I have to dodge three stabs to the dick every time I take out the trash.

Does she make a lot of NOISE? Sure. But in the end, is she actually EFFECTIVE? I have yet to see proof that she's about to start burning man the fuck out of everyone the way you are spending a LOT of time trying to get us to think she is.

You are very invested in being very afraid of her, and for the life of me, I cannot comprehend why.

will the hand then stop typing stupid shit? Because if so, I shall talk to it for years.

Perhaps you should review some of your responses before you say stuff like the above.

Perhaps you should show actual evidence of actual harm as opposed to the relentless fearmongering you're so invested in. IBM did this decades ago, and really, much more effectively.

[franc]

Anchor to a specific section of a page -

http://citebite.com/

[franc]

Perhaps you should show actual evidence of actual harm as opposed to the relentless fearmongering you're so invested in. IBM did this decades ago, and really, much more effectively.

Refreshing to see Welch nitpicking someone else's ass. It is a chore to scroll past but.

[welch]

Just in case you're inclined to mistake the FTB/Skepchick/A+ crowd for radfems, this is what real radical feminism looks like:

http://cherryblossomlife.com/2012/06/11 ... al-empire/

They hate men the way the WBC hate gays and just as rational. It's hard to understand people with so much hate in them.

THey hate the *idea* of men that they have come up with. They represent the reality of men as much as the "fags" of the WBC represent the reality of gay people.

You can't really deal with people fighting phantoms. There's nothing real to deal with.

[welch]

There are certain points the MRA's bring up that are sound, sensible, and should be supported. But the endless fearmongering of all feminists are not any of them.

If you were defending Equity Feminism, I doubt any sane reasonable people would have a problem with it.

However,

You appear to be upset by the continued attempts to hijack the Atheist/Sceptical "movement" by the Gender Feminists, and at the same time determined to give a free pass to the Radical Feminists.

Do you not understand the difference between Equity, Gender and Radical Feminism?

No. For I have been living in a cave.

On Mars.

With my fingers in my ears.

While singing "Kumbaya" at the TOP OF MY FUCKING LUNGS.

Now that we've established that. I am in favor of sensible ideas regardless of source. I don't give a fuck about the source. Just the idea. I don't think any movement other than assholes are trying to co-opt the Atheist/Sceptical "movement", and to be blunt, if they allow Watson et al to win, they deserved what they get. But, unlike you, I'm not so stupid as to think Watson has fuck all influence outside of the pathetically small number of people who actually know her. Even fewer know about PeeZus.

in the end, there is only one thing that the word "movement" applies well to.


bowels

[franc]

Wachs makes the StraightDope forums -

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/sho ... p?t=656742

[welch]

http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/148/greta.png

http://img541.imageshack.us/img541/7029/ophelia.png

:confusion-scratchheadyellow:

Right... so it's okay to call someone a sexist epithet as long as you're making fun of them?

Well, I have never said so before but yes. It does sound like a joke to me. The kind of joke I would make myself actually.

So if she says it was supposed to be a joke then I believe her.

if she didn't get so much traction from OMGSEXISTINSULTSAAAAAAH then it would be a joke, but she does. When you crusade against sexist insults, you don't get to use them.

[John Brown]

Wachs makes the StraightDope forums -

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/sho ... p?t=656742

Interesting. I'm reading through it now.

I will say this, just as an aside. I'm in my 40s and have been in some really hairy situations in my life, but the closest brush up I've had with the law is a speeding ticket or two. I suspect that I am not an anomaly (even granting the 5 million ways one can be arrested in this country). The majority of people out there simply do not have run ins with the police.

EllenBeth Wachs seems to make a profession out of it. The lawyer thing seems to be complete bullshit and a clear case of police/prosecutor misconduct, but from the looks of it, that wasn't her first or last rodeo.

Sometimes, the lowest common denominator is you.

[welch]

Perhaps you should show actual evidence of actual harm as opposed to the relentless fearmongering you're so invested in. IBM did this decades ago, and really, much more effectively.

Refreshing to see Welch nitpicking someone else's ass. It is a chore to scroll past but.

Go back to being a whiny bitch about stupid shit, I'm equal-opportunity.

[KiwiInOz]

I have almost nothing to relate to them with, and their "knowledge" of a subject is going to be highly narrow, and based almost entirely on memorization of other people's work. It takes experience and no small measure of maturity to start thinking about things for yourself, and reaching your own conclusions or opinions.

Didn't your kid kick your ass at Pokemon?

Took him a while, but it was Pokemon Stadium on N64, and he indeed legitimately kicked my ass at that video game.

Mine kicks my ass at all video games. He's the reason I quit playing PvP games.

Well, that and my suck ass reflexes.

And yet the defense of the realm/republic depends on your ability to drive a large submersible, without windows, and coordinate missiles/torpedos to unseen targets, while avoiding incoming attacks?!

[KiwiInOz]

I think I pissed of EllenBethWachs (are you skulking here, cupcake?). She said something stupid on Twitter, I put it out there (but not @ing her), and she's got a vanity search running (she @ed me). I'm sure the rest of my day will be tons of fun!

Tell her from me to get @ed.

[AndrewV69]

Perhaps you should show actual evidence of actual harm as opposed to the relentless fearmongering you're so invested in. IBM did this decades ago, and really, much more effectively.

You have been given several examples already. Including one from a former RadFem.

[John Brown]

PZ Myers on the whole Amy Roth/Harriet Hall thing:

Harriet Hall and Amy Roth have reconciled. I’m pleased to hear it; I wasn’t worried about Amy, but Hall was going to hit mantle at the rate she was digging. It is a great relief that she stopped, looked around, and considered her situation thoughtfully, and then responded well.

For fuck's sake. Can't PZ Myers be gracious about anything? I think he's jealous because he realizes he's not 1/4 of the woman Harriet Hall is.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... lent-news/

[welch]

Perhaps you should show actual evidence of actual harm as opposed to the relentless fearmongering you're so invested in. IBM did this decades ago, and really, much more effectively.

You have been given several examples already. Including one from a former RadFem.

I have seen noise. Lots and lots of noise. Just like I do not take Ophelia's noise seriously, nor do I take other noise seriously.

Again. Actual harm. Not just a lot of nutters screaming. I see little difference between all the harm THEY supposedly do and all the harm YOU supposedly do.

It's all just a bunch of squabs, screaming for treats and shitting themselves. When you can point me at actual harm justifying the level of fear you so desperately want us all to feel, you just let me know. I'm more worried about the neighbor's chihuahua at the moment.

[welch]

PZ Myers on the whole Amy Roth/Harriet Hall thing:

Harriet Hall and Amy Roth have reconciled. I’m pleased to hear it; I wasn’t worried about Amy, but Hall was going to hit mantle at the rate she was digging. It is a great relief that she stopped, looked around, and considered her situation thoughtfully, and then responded well.

For fuck's sake. Can't PZ Myers be gracious about anything? I think he's jealous because he realizes he's not 1/4 of the woman Harriet Hall is.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... lent-news/

I don't know, he managed to get his name associated with it rather adroitly. New Media Douchebag skill level-up!

[JackSkeptic]

PZ Myers on the whole Amy Roth/Harriet Hall thing:

Harriet Hall and Amy Roth have reconciled. I’m pleased to hear it; I wasn’t worried about Amy, but Hall was going to hit mantle at the rate she was digging. It is a great relief that she stopped, looked around, and considered her situation thoughtfully, and then responded well.

For fuck's sake. Can't PZ Myers be gracious about anything? I think he's jealous because he realizes he's not 1/4 of the woman Harriet Hall is.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... lent-news/

Why do they keep insisting on calling themselves 'Feminist'? Don't they know it is a meaningless word unless they clearly define what they believe? It's like a Christian expecting me to know if they believe in a real hell or not and getting upset if I guess wrong.

They have hijacked and misused the words:

1. Feminism

2. Free thought

3. Atheism

4. Skeptisism

5. Troll


What else do they want to hijack? Are no words safe any more?

[lonesagi]

PZ Myers on the whole Amy Roth/Harriet Hall thing:

Harriet Hall and Amy Roth have reconciled. I’m pleased to hear it; I wasn’t worried about Amy, but Hall was going to hit mantle at the rate she was digging. It is a great relief that she stopped, looked around, and considered her situation thoughtfully, and then responded well.

For fuck's sake. Can't PZ Myers be gracious about anything? I think he's jealous because he realizes he's not 1/4 of the woman Harriet Hall is.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... lent-news/

Julien Rousseau
25 February 2013 at 9:06 pm (UTC -6) Link to this comment
Nice to hear that Harriet and Amy have settled their differences on the T-shirt issue. Hopefully there will be more to come.

Sad to hear that ERV is now adding encouraging the trolling of people fighting for the separation of church and state to her odious repertoire (and that’s without talking of the ableism she displays by calling EllenBeth Wachs insane).

Underlined for emphasis. I'm sorry, but I LOL'd at that.

[JackSkeptic]

PZ Myers on the whole Amy Roth/Harriet Hall thing:

Harriet Hall and Amy Roth have reconciled. I’m pleased to hear it; I wasn’t worried about Amy, but Hall was going to hit mantle at the rate she was digging. It is a great relief that she stopped, looked around, and considered her situation thoughtfully, and then responded well.

For fuck's sake. Can't PZ Myers be gracious about anything? I think he's jealous because he realizes he's not 1/4 of the woman Harriet Hall is.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... lent-news/

Julien Rousseau
25 February 2013 at 9:06 pm (UTC -6) Link to this comment
Nice to hear that Harriet and Amy have settled their differences on the T-shirt issue. Hopefully there will be more to come.

Sad to hear that ERV is now adding encouraging the trolling of people fighting for the separation of church and state to her odious repertoire (and that’s without talking of the ableism she displays by calling EllenBeth Wachs insane).

Underlined for emphasis. I'm sorry, but I LOL'd at that.

I read that and thought of a new word, wankerism.

[katamari Damassi]

Wachs makes the StraightDope forums -

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/sho ... p?t=656742

She's spreading her lunacy all over the internet. You've got a real winner representing you CFI.

[John Brown]

PZ Myers on the whole Amy Roth/Harriet Hall thing:

Harriet Hall and Amy Roth have reconciled. I’m pleased to hear it; I wasn’t worried about Amy, but Hall was going to hit mantle at the rate she was digging. It is a great relief that she stopped, looked around, and considered her situation thoughtfully, and then responded well.

For fuck's sake. Can't PZ Myers be gracious about anything? I think he's jealous because he realizes he's not 1/4 of the woman Harriet Hall is.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... lent-news/

Julien Rousseau
25 February 2013 at 9:06 pm (UTC -6) Link to this comment
Nice to hear that Harriet and Amy have settled their differences on the T-shirt issue. Hopefully there will be more to come.

Sad to hear that ERV is now adding encouraging the trolling of people fighting for the separation of church and state to her odious repertoire (and that’s without talking of the ableism she displays by calling EllenBeth Wachs insane).

Underlined for emphasis. I'm sorry, but I LOL'd at that.

Oh, but whoever said that just leveled up in Internet Social Justice Warrior points. It comes with +25 Self Righteousness and +30 First World Problems

Why actually *do* anything when you can totally appropriate offense for other people? Because...Justice!!

[Maximus]

PZ Myers on the whole Amy Roth/Harriet Hall thing:

Harriet Hall and Amy Roth have reconciled. I’m pleased to hear it; I wasn’t worried about Amy, but Hall was going to hit mantle at the rate she was digging. It is a great relief that she stopped, looked around, and considered her situation thoughtfully, and then responded well.

For fuck's sake. Can't PZ Myers be gracious about anything? I think he's jealous because he realizes he's not 1/4 of the woman Harriet Hall is.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... lent-news/

I'm so tired of his arrogant condescending. What a complete asshole! If he's ever right it must be by accident.

[justinvacula]

PZ Myers on the whole Amy Roth/Harriet Hall thing:

Harriet Hall and Amy Roth have reconciled. I’m pleased to hear it; I wasn’t worried about Amy, but Hall was going to hit mantle at the rate she was digging. It is a great relief that she stopped, looked around, and considered her situation thoughtfully, and then responded well.

For fuck's sake. Can't PZ Myers be gracious about anything? I think he's jealous because he realizes he's not 1/4 of the woman Harriet Hall is.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... lent-news/

Julien Rousseau
25 February 2013 at 9:06 pm (UTC -6) Link to this comment
Nice to hear that Harriet and Amy have settled their differences on the T-shirt issue. Hopefully there will be more to come.

Sad to hear that ERV is now adding encouraging the trolling of people fighting for the separation of church and state to her odious repertoire (and that’s without talking of the ableism she displays by calling EllenBeth Wachs insane).

Underlined for emphasis. I'm sorry, but I LOL'd at that.

...but it's OK when Stephanie, Rebecca, PZ, Ophelia, and former FTB blogger JT lanuch character attacks against me - you know, someone who fights for the separation of church and state.

Their double-standards are awesome.

[welch]

PZ Myers on the whole Amy Roth/Harriet Hall thing:

Harriet Hall and Amy Roth have reconciled. I’m pleased to hear it; I wasn’t worried about Amy, but Hall was going to hit mantle at the rate she was digging. It is a great relief that she stopped, looked around, and considered her situation thoughtfully, and then responded well.

For fuck's sake. Can't PZ Myers be gracious about anything? I think he's jealous because he realizes he's not 1/4 of the woman Harriet Hall is.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... lent-news/

Julien Rousseau
25 February 2013 at 9:06 pm (UTC -6) Link to this comment
Nice to hear that Harriet and Amy have settled their differences on the T-shirt issue. Hopefully there will be more to come.

Sad to hear that ERV is now adding encouraging the trolling of people fighting for the separation of church and state to her odious repertoire (and that’s without talking of the ableism she displays by calling EllenBeth Wachs insane).

Underlined for emphasis. I'm sorry, but I LOL'd at that.

...but it's OK when Stephanie, Rebecca, PZ, Ophelia, and former FTB blogger JT lanuch character attacks against me - you know, someone who fights for the separation of church and state.

Their double-standards are awesome.

It's what they do man. It's all they're good for.

[comslave]

@ Justin Vacula:

I found the list of rape supporting activities/thoughts:

http://evebitfirst.wordpress.com/2011/0 ... porter-if/

Trigger Warning! This will likely piss you off.

He has procured a prostitute.
He characterizes prostitution as a “legitimate” “job” “choice” or defends men who purchase prostitutes.

LOL

The points about "defending" are what piss me off the most about such lists. I'm of the opinion that simply attempting to argue for a position is never wrong, regardless of the position.

Under the definitions she offers, it pretty much means all men are rape supporters. This is pretty clear evidence that radfems are just women who hate men. It's laughable.

[Lsuoma]

PZ Myers on the whole Amy Roth/Harriet Hall thing:

Harriet Hall and Amy Roth have reconciled. I’m pleased to hear it; I wasn’t worried about Amy, but Hall was going to hit mantle at the rate she was digging. It is a great relief that she stopped, looked around, and considered her situation thoughtfully, and then responded well.

For fuck's sake. Can't PZ Myers be gracious about anything? I think he's jealous because he realizes he's not 1/4 of the woman Harriet Hall is.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... lent-news/

His tits are probably bigger (and he's a bigger tit).

[Steersman]

If you want to quote on Novellas blog is <blockquote> or

?

<blockquote>text</blockquote>

I give you... the shortest post that Steersman has ever written :D

:-) A shorter one …. :-)

[comslave]

@ Justin Vacula:

I found the list of rape supporting activities/thoughts:

http://evebitfirst.wordpress.com/2011/0 ... porter-if/

Trigger Warning! This will likely piss you off.

"He watches pornography in which women are depicted."
Seriously...that is not edited.
If you watch pornography with a woman in it, you are supporting rape culture.

The problem I have with this kind of radical feminism is that it can turn men away from supporting women at all. In essence, a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[Steersman]

However, while I have more than a few reservations about AVfM and company even if I’m somewhat sympathetic to their “Enemies List”, and while I’m still a little ticked about them banning me – for defending some aspects of feminism, I might add – although I’m more amused than ticked, I also figure that “rad-fem” is a “non-trivial” problem.

One of these days Steers I might go read the thread where you got banned. Because if I remember correctly I once identified myself as a Feminist over there myself, and I certainly do not recall raising any hackles.

Here’s the link should you be so inclinced. And I don’t know about hackles, but “… our newest troll Mr I.B.Slick the Steersman from Femcoat City” might be considered representative of bunch of others, including some that AVfM apparently thought beyond even their pale.

[TheMudbrooker]

Anybody seen this? Listen at 1:07:30
[youtube]21DGazrEZlE[/youtube]

Oh dear.
What a racist fuck.

Sorry PZ, but your mask slipped.

http://i.imgur.com/DGlasyo.jpg

Well, it was more Brownian making a 'joke' at the expense of Mexican American immigrants, and the rest just laughed.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA MEXICANS DO MANUAL LABOR HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Generic non-funny joke, made funny again by escaping the lips of a SJW.

No, Brownian (a canadian) was saying (in response to PZ's suggestion that people might want to more to canada because of their healthcare and progressive attitudes) that he'd appreciate folks like masons and plumbers move up to Canada from the US to help fix up the place (he was joking, of course). He didn't mention Mexicans at all. PZ then brought up Mexicans by saying "Manual labor. Yeah! We can be your Mexicans". Presumably funny because those US folks who moved up there would then occupy a socioeconomic position in canada similar to that of a stereotypical Mexican in the US.

What the fuck would PZ Myers know about manual labor? Over that past two decades I have worked on roads, bridges, dams, pipelines, schools, hospitals, technical colleges, universities, battered women's shelters (how many "feminists" have that on their resume?) and laid hundreds of miles of water mains, sanitary sewer and storm sewer lines. One year's worth of the manual labor I have performed, and which Myers so clearly disdains, provides more real, tangible benefit to society than the work of a dozen lifetimes of a dozen third-rate hick town college professors like him.
In short, go fuck yourself Professor Myers, you smug, smarmy, self-important little cocksucker.

[mordacious1]

What the fuck would PZ Myers know about manual labor?

I think he buried a couple of holy books in his garden once and he lifts his butt out of bed some days. Grading all those papers and tests must be difficult, he sure complains enough about it. I think that covers all the manual labor that he does (except for the repetitious fork-to-mouth exercise).

[Steersman]

Anybody seen this? Listen at 1:07:30
(youtube:21DGazrEZlE)

Oh dear.
What a racist fuck.

Sorry PZ, but your mask slipped.

http://i.imgur.com/DGlasyo.jpg

Well, it was more Brownian making a 'joke' at the expense of Mexican American immigrants, and the rest just laughed.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA MEXICANS DO MANUAL LABOR HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Generic non-funny joke, made funny again by escaping the lips of a SJW.

No, Brownian (a canadian) was saying (in response to PZ's suggestion that people might want to more to canada because of their healthcare and progressive attitudes) that he'd appreciate folks like masons and plumbers move up to Canada from the US to help fix up the place (he was joking, of course). He didn't mention Mexicans at all. PZ then brought up Mexicans by saying "Manual labor. Yeah! We can be your Mexicans". Presumably funny because those US folks who moved up there would then occupy a socioeconomic position in canada similar to that of a stereotypical Mexican in the US.

What the fuck would PZ Myers know about manual labor? Over that past two decades I have worked on roads, bridges, dams, pipelines, schools, hospitals, technical colleges, universities, battered women's shelters (how many "feminists" have that on their resume?) and laid hundreds of miles of water mains, sanitary sewer and storm sewer lines. One year's worth of the manual labor I have performed, and which Myers so clearly disdains, provides more real, tangible benefit to society than the work of a dozen lifetimes of a dozen third-rate hick town college professors like him.
In short, go fuck yourself Professor Myers, you smug, smarmy, self-important little cocksucker.

Maybe you can point me to the particular segment in those clips where he manifests evident “disdain” particularly for all Mexicans, because I sure didn’t hear that. Maybe some bias on your part?

And I quite agree with “some guy” about the “similar socioeconomic position”. To be charitable, although I’m not sure PZ is entitled to much of that, it seems that it really only qualifies as racism if he had asserted all Mexicans were like X. That would have been stereotyping, characterizing an entire group by the attributes of a segment of it, as with sexism.

[franc]

Wachs makes the StraightDope forums -

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/sho ... p?t=656742

She's spreading her lunacy all over the internet. You've got a real winner representing you CFI.

Technically, she's just a CFI member. American Humanists are the ones that have the winner - FHA is a full charter chapter.

http://www.americanhumanist.org/What_We ... AHA_Groups
http://oi48.tinypic.com/2q1uwld.jpg

She's also -

Atheists of Florida
Legal Affairs Coordinator 2010-2011
Vice-President, 2011-2012
Founder, Director - Lakeland Chapter, 2009
Board Member January 2010- April 2012

http://free2think.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=1222
http://atheistsofflorida.org/index.html

Who knows who the fuck they are - their website is a geocities flashback.

[rayshul]

While I don't mean to be weird about this, EBW seems (from her twitter comments) to be a little odd and I wonder if it's best to stay very far away from her. I feel like the best reaction to her comments is "yes dear".

[Steersman]

[Post 993]

<snip>
And while it practically goes without saying that the treatment of women in Muslim countries is simply, disgustingly, and egregiously barbaric (details in Ibn Warraq’s Why I Am Not a Muslim, chapter 14, here) – a variation on Benson’s and Stangroom’s theme – the pervasiveness of similar attitudes in Western cultures – due at least in part to similar religious perspectives – underlines the nature and magnitude of the problem.

You're doing a classic bait and switch religious apologists do.

How so? If I’m not mistaken there’s zero evidence that – as per WBC’s schtick – Jehovah destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah and has it in for homosexuals, much less that any god exists in the first place. Whereas there seems to be quite a bit of evidence for women getting it in the neck for some significant portion of history at the hands of “the patriarchy”. Not really analogous cases, at least as far as I can see it.

Whereas I have never committed any atrocity. So why hate me? What possible association do I have with that? Your whole post is a red herring.

I didn’t say that the response was rational, only understandable. If someone pokes and torments a dog and it turns around and bites some blameless kid then it should not be surprising if the kid winds up hating dogs – particularly if there are a great many other cases of other kids being similarly and blamelessly savaged. As seems to be the case for many women. You really should take a close look at that book of Ibn Warraq’s I referred to earlier.

And you could also take a look at the recent case – not to mention a great many others of a similar kind – described by Benson of a woman in Ireland who died because the hospital refused to terminate a “miscarrying pregnancy” because Ireland was “a Catholic country”. Apart from calling that a case of egregious barbarism in a supposedly civilized country, one might also call it a case of outright sexism manifested by a decidedly “patriarchal”, antediluvian, and anachronistic organization that is well past its best-before date.

I don’t know about you but that case makes me more than just a little pissed off, and if I’d been a woman it might well have pushed me over the edge into hating men in general. And, as with the kids bitten by the dogs, when one is pushed over the edge who is at fault when they land on someone else? The person falling or the person doing the pushing?

Also a lot of what they say is completely and demonstrably false. I do not like being picked on or affected by peoples ignorance and particularly their hate of LIVING people for some invented atrocity in the past.

Well then, if it is “completely and demonstrably false” then you should have no problem proving the case. And you probably have a moral obligation to do so. Have you done that?

Using your logic I can hate Germans for the Jews the Jews for the Arabs and the Arabs for having all the oil. It's a silly argument of pleading to emotion and designed to push guilt where none is deserved.

Bit of a moot point I think as to how much blame we all have to shoulder for the questionable if not unethical actions and social policies of our governments and governmental agencies. Although hate tends to be a rather counterproductive emotion unless one is really only interested in self-indulgence – like being in a rocking-chair: lots of action but very little forward progress.

[AndrewV69]

Again. Actual harm. Not just a lot of nutters screaming. I see little difference between all the harm THEY supposedly do and all the harm YOU supposedly do.

I would be interested in seeing what your definition of "actual harm" is.

It's all just a bunch of squabs, screaming for treats and shitting themselves. When you can point me at actual harm justifying the level of fear you so desperately want us all to feel, you just let me know. I'm more worried about the neighbor's chihuahua at the moment.

You want me to take responsibility for your issues?

[TheMudbrooker]

Anybody seen this? Listen at 1:07:30
(youtube:21DGazrEZlE)

http://i.imgur.com/DGlasyo.jpg

Well, it was more Brownian making a 'joke' at the expense of Mexican American immigrants, and the rest just laughed.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA MEXICANS DO MANUAL LABOR HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Generic non-funny joke, made funny again by escaping the lips of a SJW.

No, Brownian (a canadian) was saying (in response to PZ's suggestion that people might want to more to canada because of their healthcare and progressive attitudes) that he'd appreciate folks like masons and plumbers move up to Canada from the US to help fix up the place (he was joking, of course). He didn't mention Mexicans at all. PZ then brought up Mexicans by saying "Manual labor. Yeah! We can be your Mexicans". Presumably funny because those US folks who moved up there would then occupy a socioeconomic position in canada similar to that of a stereotypical Mexican in the US.

What the fuck would PZ Myers know about manual labor? Over that past two decades I have worked on roads, bridges, dams, pipelines, schools, hospitals, technical colleges, universities, battered women's shelters (how many "feminists" have that on their resume?) and laid hundreds of miles of water mains, sanitary sewer and storm sewer lines. One year's worth of the manual labor I have performed, and which Myers so clearly disdains, provides more real, tangible benefit to society than the work of a dozen lifetimes of a dozen third-rate hick town college professors like him.
In short, go fuck yourself Professor Myers, you smug, smarmy, self-important little cocksucker.

Maybe you can point me to the particular segment in those clips where he manifests evident “disdain” particularly for all Mexicans, because I sure didn’t hear that. Maybe some bias on your part?

And I quite agree with “some guy” about the “similar socioeconomic position”. To be charitable, although I’m not sure PZ is entitled to much of that, it seems that it really only qualifies as racism if he had asserted all Mexicans were like X. That would have been stereotyping, characterizing an entire group by the attributes of a segment of it, as with sexism.[/quote]

Kindy point out where I mentioned Mexicans in my comment. Or do you consider Mexican and manual labor to be synonymous?

[TheMudbrooker]

Anybody seen this? Listen at 1:07:30
(youtube:21DGazrEZlE)

Oh dear.
What a racist fuck.

Sorry PZ, but your mask slipped.

http://i.imgur.com/DGlasyo.jpg

Well, it was more Brownian making a 'joke' at the expense of Mexican American immigrants, and the rest just laughed.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA MEXICANS DO MANUAL LABOR HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Generic non-funny joke, made funny again by escaping the lips of a SJW.

No, Brownian (a canadian) was saying (in response to PZ's suggestion that people might want to more to canada because of their healthcare and progressive attitudes) that he'd appreciate folks like masons and plumbers move up to Canada from the US to help fix up the place (he was joking, of course). He didn't mention Mexicans at all. PZ then brought up Mexicans by saying "Manual labor. Yeah! We can be your Mexicans". Presumably funny because those US folks who moved up there would then occupy a socioeconomic position in canada similar to that of a stereotypical Mexican in the US.

What the fuck would PZ Myers know about manual labor? Over that past two decades I have worked on roads, bridges, dams, pipelines, schools, hospitals, technical colleges, universities, battered women's shelters (how many "feminists" have that on their resume?) and laid hundreds of miles of water mains, sanitary sewer and storm sewer lines. One year's worth of the manual labor I have performed, and which Myers so clearly disdains, provides more real, tangible benefit to society than the work of a dozen lifetimes of a dozen third-rate hick town college professors like him.
In short, go fuck yourself Professor Myers, you smug, smarmy, self-important little cocksucker.[/quote]
Maybe you can point me to the particular segment in those clips where he manifests evident “disdain” particularly for all Mexicans, because I sure didn’t hear that. Maybe some bias on your part?

And I quite agree with “some guy” about the “similar socioeconomic position”. To be charitable, although I’m not sure PZ is entitled to much of that, it seems that it really only qualifies as racism if he had asserted all Mexicans were like X. That would have been stereotyping, characterizing an entire group by the attributes of a segment of it, as with sexism.[/quote]

Let's try this again and see if the quotes nest right.
Steersman, kindly point out where I mentioned Mexicans in my comment. Or do you consider Mexican and manual labor to be synonymous?

[franc]

While I don't mean to be weird about this, EBW seems (from her twitter comments) to be a little odd and I wonder if it's best to stay very far away from her. I feel like the best reaction to her comments is "yes dear".

I'm glad I'm not on the same continent as her. As with Hensley, I really have no interest in Wachs or the organisations they belong to - beyond the collateral damage that leaks beyond their communities. But if I was a fee paying member of AHA, I would be asking exactly the same questions of them that I would were I a CFI member. To repeat the point - it's not what they look like to us that matters. It's what they look like to the outside, specifically the religionist, social authoritarian right. Both are gifts that keep on giving.

[Steersman]

<snip>
What the fuck would PZ Myers know about manual labor? Over that past two decades I have worked on roads, bridges, dams, pipelines, schools, hospitals, technical colleges, universities, battered women's shelters (how many "feminists" have that on their resume?) and laid hundreds of miles of water mains, sanitary sewer and storm sewer lines. One year's worth of the manual labor I have performed, and which Myers so clearly disdains, provides more real, tangible benefit to society than the work of a dozen lifetimes of a dozen third-rate hick town college professors like him.
In short, go fuck yourself Professor Myers, you smug, smarmy, self-important little cocksucker.

Maybe you can point me to the particular segment in those clips where he manifests evident “disdain” particularly for all Mexicans, because I sure didn’t hear that. Maybe some bias on your part?

And I quite agree with “some guy” about the “similar socioeconomic position”. To be charitable, although I’m not sure PZ is entitled to much of that, it seems that it really only qualifies as racism if he had asserted all Mexicans were like X. That would have been stereotyping, characterizing an entire group by the attributes of a segment of it, as with sexism.

Kindy point out where I mentioned Mexicans in my comment. Or do you consider Mexican and manual labor to be synonymous?

Ok, I'll stand corrected: you didn't mention Mexicans in your comment, although it was part of what you quoted and to which I responded - hence my reference to "some guy". But you still asserted - without evidence - that "Myers clearly disdains manual labour" so my request for evidence of that still stands.

[Steersman]

<snip>
Let's try this again and see if the quotes nest right.

There's a preview function that helps substantially in that regard - I use it frequently myself.

Also, in passing, its generally considered "good form" - franc will love you forever (as long as you don't use smilies) - if you snip out extraneous comments including the "[img]" and "[youtube]" stuff that actually displays images that everyone will have seen several times ....

[Steersman]

There's nothing wrong with stupid shit every now and then. I like it. But then I like to return to a mind challenging book, or teaching myself something new that I know fuck all about. Watson's entire life seems to be a 16 year old's vacuum of mindless distractions.

All MIT courses available for free:

http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/find-by-department/

Not a diploma mill, but I sure as hell am learning a lot in fields of interest.

Thanks for the info, for the "heads up"; looks like some interesting and accessible stuff there ...

[Skep tickle]

PZ Myers on the whole Amy Roth/Harriet Hall thing:

Harriet Hall and Amy Roth have reconciled. I’m pleased to hear it; I wasn’t worried about Amy, but Hall was going to hit mantle at the rate she was digging. It is a great relief that she stopped, looked around, and considered her situation thoughtfully, and then responded well.

For fuck's sake. Can't PZ Myers be gracious about anything? I think he's jealous because he realizes he's not 1/4 of the woman Harriet Hall is.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... lent-news/

Blech. The "now, now girls; kiss and make up" was disturbing enough but this is nauseating.

The best thing about this thread at Pharyngula is that every other post mentions the slyme pit; hello, new lurkers!

From the responses to PZ's post, note this:

http://i.imgur.com/4ZGidDj.png
"Abbie love...extrajudicial revenge-defense killing" ??!!

http://i.imgur.com/IrEJxS8.png
"Hall showed intellectual humility"?? (Whereas Roth's contribution wouldn't generally be described by using "intellectual" - sorry but it's true, compare their emails in Novella's blog post.)

Then PZ likens making up to ERV to "asking me to kiss and make up with some slimy squishy creature at the bottom of the sea"?

Uh oh, better watch out, Abbie! PZ can't hide it, an abiding interest in those slimy squishy sea-bottom creatures is part of his public persona, so that means he's looking forward to it?

[franc]

For those not queasy enough -

csi_hall.png

(29.69 KiB) Downloaded 258 times

[Gefan]

@ Justin Vacula:

I found the list of rape supporting activities/thoughts:

http://evebitfirst.wordpress.com/2011/0 ... porter-if/

Trigger Warning! This will likely piss you off.

"He watches pornography in which women are depicted."
Seriously...that is not edited.
If you watch pornography with a woman in it, you are supporting rape culture.

Rhetorically the whole screed is on a level with the "good person test".
Look, the best solution for these loons is, ironically enough, Dworkin's "womyn's homeland" concept (dreamed up towards the end of her sad life when even some of her allies were convinced she was certifiable).
I vote for the San Juan Islands, by the way.
Anyway, set them all up with their own society and then quarantine them. Since there is no fucking way they should be allowed around children (especially boys) the population can be maintained with any women who wish to defect from elsewhere. I'd be fascinated to see what kind of society they produced.
Same thing with the Aryan Nation and the white separatist dingbats. You can't play nice with the rest of the species? Fine, go to your room. Stay there until we're convinced you can behave.

[Skep tickle]

Hall & Roth's emails each give this list Novella came up as things he sees them agreeing on:

Dr. Novella has laid out a list of the things he thinks we agree on:
• gender equality
• judging people by the content of their character, and not by physical or gender attributes
• creating a safe and open environment regardless of sex or gender
• the concept of sex and gender are complex and multifarious, and it’s all within the spectrum of what it is to be human.
• condemnation of sexism in all its forms
• respect and recognition of the dignity of all people regardless of their sex/gender

Of course, the devil is in the details. In particular, "condemnation of sexism in all its forms" looks particularly prone to eye-of-the-beholder interpretation. To some, blasting presumed MRAs as evil and referencing women who don't toe The Party Line as "chill girls" and "gender traitors" probably seems to fit perfectly within "condemn[ing] sexism in all its forms".

(Not that that's what Roth focuses on in her reply as the "only" area of "squabble", however she doesn't want to say too much because she may not "[get] it right myself" - she apparently still needs coaching on that are. She repeats the list & says, in part):

Yes, we agree on everything on your list. The only thing that we seem to squabble over is the wider definitions of gender and how it can feed into heterosexism and cissexism but this is definitely not my area of expertise and so I am not going to delve any further into the conversation for fear of not getting it right myself. I am still learning about these issues. You have to forgive my partial ignorance, as I only started to identify as a feminist about a year ago, when the harassment became focused on me.

From http://theness.com/neurologicablog/inde ... g-forward/

[cunt]

<snip>
What the fuck would PZ Myers know about manual labor? Over that past two decades I have worked on roads, bridges, dams, pipelines, schools, hospitals, technical colleges, universities, battered women's shelters (how many "feminists" have that on their resume?) and laid hundreds of miles of water mains, sanitary sewer and storm sewer lines. One year's worth of the manual labor I have performed, and which Myers so clearly disdains, provides more real, tangible benefit to society than the work of a dozen lifetimes of a dozen third-rate hick town college professors like him.
In short, go fuck yourself Professor Myers, you smug, smarmy, self-important little cocksucker.

Maybe you can point me to the particular segment in those clips where he manifests evident “disdain” particularly for all Mexicans, because I sure didn’t hear that. Maybe some bias on your part?

And I quite agree with “some guy” about the “similar socioeconomic position”. To be charitable, although I’m not sure PZ is entitled to much of that, it seems that it really only qualifies as racism if he had asserted all Mexicans were like X. That would have been stereotyping, characterizing an entire group by the attributes of a segment of it, as with sexism.

Kindy point out where I mentioned Mexicans in my comment. Or do you consider Mexican and manual labor to be synonymous?

Ok, I'll stand corrected: you didn't mention Mexicans in your comment, although it was part of what you quoted and to which I responded - hence my reference to "some guy". But you still asserted - without evidence - that "Myers clearly disdains manual labour" so my request for evidence of that still stands.

I'd say he clearly disdains it if he's equating cash-in-hand unskilled manual labour as stereotypically performed by illegal immigrants in the south-western US with the skilled trades. He obviously doesn't understand anything about it apart from the fact that it's all beneath him.

Whatever, it was quite clearly supposed to be an "edgy" joke and he's a tremendously unfunny twat.

[TheMudbrooker]

<snip>
What the fuck would PZ Myers know about manual labor? Over that past two decades I have worked on roads, bridges, dams, pipelines, schools, hospitals, technical colleges, universities, battered women's shelters (how many "feminists" have that on their resume?) and laid hundreds of miles of water mains, sanitary sewer and storm sewer lines. One year's worth of the manual labor I have performed, and which Myers so clearly disdains, provides more real, tangible benefit to society than the work of a dozen lifetimes of a dozen third-rate hick town college professors like him.
In short, go fuck yourself Professor Myers, you smug, smarmy, self-important little cocksucker.

Maybe you can point me to the particular segment in those clips where he manifests evident “disdain” particularly for all Mexicans, because I sure didn’t hear that. Maybe some bias on your part?

And I quite agree with “some guy” about the “similar socioeconomic position”. To be charitable, although I’m not sure PZ is entitled to much of that, it seems that it really only qualifies as racism if he had asserted all Mexicans were like X. That would have been stereotyping, characterizing an entire group by the attributes of a segment of it, as with sexism.

Kindy point out where I mentioned Mexicans in my comment. Or do you consider Mexican and manual labor to be synonymous?

Ok, I'll stand corrected: you didn't mention Mexicans in your comment, although it was part of what you quoted and to which I responded - hence my reference to "some guy". But you still asserted - without evidence - that "Myers clearly disdains manual labour" so my request for evidence of that still stands.

In spoken conversation tone and affect count for as much, if not more, than the words spoken. When PZ says "manual labor....we'll be your Mexicans" his tone is snide and dismissive, his expression is condecending. The evidence you request is quite literally written on his face.

[EdgePenguin]

Every time they get someone to back down, and write a sanctimonious victory blog, I am reminded of the final chapter of 1984, where Winston Smith finally realising he 'loved Big Brother'

[Steersman]

Hall & Roth's emails each give this list Novella came up as things he sees them agreeing on:

Dr. Novella has laid out a list of the things he thinks we agree on:
• gender equality
• judging people by the content of their character, and not by physical or gender attributes
• creating a safe and open environment regardless of sex or gender
• the concept of sex and gender are complex and multifarious, and it’s all within the spectrum of what it is to be human.
• condemnation of sexism in all its forms
• respect and recognition of the dignity of all people regardless of their sex/gender

Of course, the devil is in the details. In particular, "condemnation of sexism in all its forms" looks particularly prone to eye-of-the-beholder interpretation. To some, blasting presumed MRAs as evil and referencing women who don't toe The Party Line as "chill girls" and "gender traitors" probably seems to fit perfectly within "condemn[ing] sexism in all its forms".

<snip>
From http://theness.com/neurologicablog/inde ... g-forward/

Good points. Might be an idea to ask Amy a pointed question or two along those lines. I took a quick look on the Skepchick site and found some fourty combinations of “chill” and “girl” – none of the few I checked were any “smoking guns” – and likewise with fourteen of “gender” and “traitor”. Interesting comment incorporating the latter from some man “PH” – although to be politically correct I suppose I should say “apparently male, but possibly one of 7582 genders (at last count)”:

Generalising from the issue of feminists and clothing, one impression of some aspects of feminism (possibly an unrepresentative one culled from a few more vocal minorities) is that there do seem to be some groups in feminism who are convinced theirs is the only true way, and that women who disagree are traitors ("Marriage is legalised prostitution", "Women should/shouldn't wear X", "all men are bastards/sexists/whatever")

Would be interesting to know who had been using those phrases most – probably the pharyngulites ….

[Reap]

Maybe you can point me to the particular segment in those clips where he manifests evident “disdain” particularly for all Mexicans, because I sure didn’t hear that. Maybe some bias on your part?

And I quite agree with “some guy” about the “similar socioeconomic position”. To be charitable, although I’m not sure PZ is entitled to much of that, it seems that it really only qualifies as racism if he had asserted all Mexicans were like X. That would have been stereotyping, characterizing an entire group by the attributes of a segment of it, as with sexism.

Steersman how do you walk or sit with so many fences shoved up ur arse? :D

[Steersman]

<snip>
And I quite agree with “some guy” about the “similar socioeconomic position”. To be charitable, although I’m not sure PZ is entitled to much of that, it seems that it really only qualifies as racism if he had asserted all Mexicans were like X. That would have been stereotyping, characterizing an entire group by the attributes of a segment of it, as with sexism.

<snip>
I'd say he clearly disdains it if he's equating cash-in-hand unskilled manual labour as stereotypically performed by illegal immigrants in the south-western US with the skilled trades. He obviously doesn't understand anything about it apart from the fact that it's all beneath him.

Whatever, it was quite clearly supposed to be an "edgy" joke and he's a tremendously unfunny twat.

As with that talk he did where he [probably] embarassed the hell out of some woman who he called up onto the stage, I would probably agree with you that his sense of humour could use a tune-up.

But "clearly disdains" still seems a stretch. Seems to me that you - and Mudbrooker - are missing the context and the point of his "joke". I figure the laughter wasn't directed at Mexicans but - as "some guy" quite reasonably argued - at the analogy with Americans being in the same role moving to Canada as Mexicans were in moving to the Southern US. Very similar to this argument and joke I made on a recent post by Harriet Hall which might also be of some relevance:

What I find rather amusing about this contretemps – exhibiting some similarities with a tempest in a teapot, the rape of the lock – is the amount of egregious misinterpretation – intentional or otherwise – and histrionic butt-hurt. Reminds me of a joke:

Seems that a man and a woman – male and female for the purists in the crowd – named Joe – who had suffered from an environmental accident of sorts during which he had lost an eye which had been replaced by a prosthesis made out of, as it happened, wood – and Susie – who had been “victimized” by the congenital deformity of a cleft palate – got to chatting one day. And, as they were both young and lonely and lustful, Joe screwed up his courage and asked Susie if she would like to go to a dance with him. To which Susie, with no small amount of enthusiasm, responded with, “W’dn I! W’dn I!”. To which Joe, cut to the quick, responded with, “Harelip! Harelip!” ….

Rather remarkable the degree to which I was castigated because others couldn't see that the butt of the joke was not people with cleft palates, but the entirely human tendency to misinterpret other people - with frequently amusing, if "sharpish", consequences; "it only hurts when I laugh" as the punchline of another joke has it.

[Steersman]

Maybe you can point me to the particular segment in those clips where he manifests evident “disdain” particularly for all Mexicans, because I sure didn’t hear that. Maybe some bias on your part?

And I quite agree with “some guy” about the “similar socioeconomic position”. To be charitable, although I’m not sure PZ is entitled to much of that, it seems that it really only qualifies as racism if he had asserted all Mexicans were like X. That would have been stereotyping, characterizing an entire group by the attributes of a segment of it, as with sexism.

Steersman how do you walk or sit with so many fences shoved up ur arse? :D

:lol: Definitely a problem in skipping from the top of one fence to the top of another. And it does get to be a pain being pasted from both sides – “The Spy Who Came in from the Cold” and all that. But a tough job that someone has to do, although I'm happy to see people like Steven Novella and (I think) Lee Moore take up those cudgels …. :-)

[Lurkion]

Even more wach-a-loonery!
Ellenbeth, make your twitter feed private again, my ribs are getting sore :lol:

Apparently nasty articles on the internet are just as bad as rape! :shock:

The proof? :think:

It says so in the Daily Mail! :doh:

http://i.imgur.com/2dItApG.jpg

WTF.

[Lurkion]

I am coining a new term "Ellenquent". It's when Ellen Beth Wachs says something and it doesn't make any damn sense.

[cunt]

Yeah Steersman that is a lot like the joke you left on Harriet Halls blog.

[Lurkion]

:whistle:
http://i.imgur.com/IRa6rZ0.jpg

IF YOU DISAGREE WITH ME, YOU SHOULD BURN IN HELLFIRE...

said the head of Humanists of Florida.

And we object when they call us "like a religion".

[Lurkion]

SNIP

battered women's shelters

SNIP

Who would batter a women's shelter? That's horrible!

[Lurkion]

PZ Myers on the whole Amy Roth/Harriet Hall thing:

Harriet Hall and Amy Roth have reconciled. I’m pleased to hear it; I wasn’t worried about Amy, but Hall was going to hit mantle at the rate she was digging. It is a great relief that she stopped, looked around, and considered her situation thoughtfully, and then responded well.

For fuck's sake. Can't PZ Myers be gracious about anything? I think he's jealous because he realizes he's not 1/4 of the woman Harriet Hall is.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... lent-news/

Blech. The "now, now girls; kiss and make up" was disturbing enough but this is nauseating.

The best thing about this thread at Pharyngula is that every other post mentions the slyme pit; hello, new lurkers!

From the responses to PZ's post, note this:

http://i.imgur.com/4ZGidDj.png
"Abbie love...extrajudicial revenge-defense killing" ??!!

http://i.imgur.com/IrEJxS8.png
"Hall showed intellectual humility"?? (Whereas Roth's contribution wouldn't generally be described by using "intellectual" - sorry but it's true, compare their emails in Novella's blog post.)

Then PZ likens making up to ERV to "asking me to kiss and make up with some slimy squishy creature at the bottom of the sea"?

Uh oh, better watch out, Abbie! PZ can't hide it, an abiding interest in those slimy squishy sea-bottom creatures is part of his public persona, so that means he's looking forward to it?

I wonder what I lied about. Oh well, guess I'll never get the chance to find out as I'm banned.

Jadehawk and I have had some interesting reactions on Twitter over the past 36 hours.

[Lurkion]

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... ent-570150

lol Nope. I responded on Twitter with why. Guess you lose the sweeps on that one, Jadehawk:

[Steersman]

Yeah Steersman that is a lot like the joke you left on Harriet Halls blog.

And TAM was not – as in Ophelia Benson’s analogy – exactly like Nazi Germany. But some of the elements were analogous there, and are, I think, analogous in the two jokes: the Mexicans emigrating to the US [Me] are to those with cleft palates [CP] as Americans emigrating to Canada [Ae] are to people misinterpreting [Pm] each other. Symbolically, Me:CP => Ae:Pm. Or, rearranging terms, Me:Ae => CP:Pm. The butts of the jokes are not the former – Mexicans and those with cleft palates – but the latter pair.

But Benson apparently isn’t the only one who finds the use and understanding of analogies a little problematic – not that that is entirely suprising as the intricacies can be a little hard to fathom – as I attempted to argue with David Gorski here on another post of Harriet Hall’s.

[‘tis time again to call it a day; night all]