Now sponsored by [spoiler]my dick[/spoiler]

[LMU]

Anyone else get the slight impression that Louis might be a bit butthurt.

http://www.freezepage.com/1359484495ELMJTZUUAY

I think welch made him cry

I think Louis' primary source of protein is the peanuts he picks out of P.Z. Meyer's shit.

I got an 86% on the humanist test, but only because the animals question didn't have a "I eat them whenever hungry" option.

I thought the humanist test was very strange. I didn't think you needed to have any particular beliefs about god, evolution, animals, or the environment in order to be a humanist, you just needed to have certain views about *humans*. Am I mixing it up with egalitarianism?

[Remick]

Put aside for a moment that the “oppression” which proponents of this argument are accusing Israel of committing is usually imaginary.

What ever else is going on, whatever reasons those goings on have for happening. The above statement is pretty bullshit.

[Metalogic42]

If any of those anti-feminist types, or Justin Vacula and his horde of supporters is reading this, please ask yourself honestly: If secularists or atheists of color decided to have a POC in Secularism conference, where POC were given all the spaces on the podiums and panels to discuss their viewpoints, where the primary goal was to share their thoughts with other secularists of color, to improve the presence of people of color in the secularist/atheist movements, to make the movement as a whole a more welcoming environment to POC, and therefore necessitating a conference make-up where the attendees were primarily secularists of color, but where white secularists were also welcome to attend....would you really demand that white people be given a space on the podium to talk about why this conference was unnecessary or divisive? Would you pay the conference fee for a white supremacist to attend, even if he was somebody who never admitted to himself that he was a white supremacist, but just someone who spent a lot of time cyberstalking prominent secularists of color to tell them how stupid and wrong they were about everything? If you wouldn't do those things, then ask yourself why you think it's not okay to be a racist, but it's still somehow okay to be sexist.

Bold mine. Honestly, this bullshit is starting to get tiring.

[VickyCaramel]

It seems to me that much of what we see as Islam is actually Arab culture which spread with Islam. An attack on islam is an attack on their identity and values and I don't think it is very effective compared to getting our own house in order.

When I read this, something didn't sit well with me, and I'm not sure I'll articulate this very well, but here goes.

While I recognize that there is a certain contingent of critics of Islam who just hate brown skinned "others" immigrating to their cities and living in insular neighborhoods (we see a similar situation here in the US, but not with Muslims so much as migrant workers from Mexico who cross the border to find work) and some controversies like New York's Ground Zero Mosque of France's burqa ban do seem more rooted in fear of the "others" than a valid clash of ideas, I can't help but think that many of us in the atheist column and many of my fellow liberal types do a little bit of overcompensation in trying to separate ourselves and any potential criticism of Islam from the actions of the people who actually do just hate brown skinned folks.

Let me put it another way.

Here in the west there are huge numbers of people who are apathetic about religion.They identify as Christian as a reflex, but they don't go to church, they don't think about it, and if they do it is likely to conflict with what is convenient to them, or what they actually believe.

When we argue, we seldom convert the people we argue with, instead we play to the audience. It is those people who can be swayed. Even then we are basically waiting for the religious people to die while converting the young... and they don't much listen to Sam Harris lectures... they watch Ricky Gervais!

So comics make jokes about religion, some of us get on the interwebs and and take the piss... and it works! We are growing in number.

Meanwhile in Egypt, thousands of people have been rioting on the streets calling for the overthrow of an Islamic government which not long ago got voted in. They see what a theocracy looks like and they have said 'Do not want'. ...and that is fucking amazing! But it's unlikely very many of them are atheist.

That's the difference. I just think that arguing against Islam is not a productive way to spend time. Let the Moderate Muslims do it.

I don't see Islam as a culture, I see it as an oppressive set rules and guidelines laid out in one book, the Qu'ran, and it's supporting texts, the Hadith. When I attack Islam I am specifically attacking the ideas in those texts because they are barbaric and are, as far as I'm concerned, the real oppressors of Arab culture. Culture is too broad of a concept to be contained in something as small as the Qu'ran and the Hadith, just as in the west our culture could not possibly be totally defined by the Bible or the writings of our minority religions such as the Book of Mormon or the writings of L. Ron Hubbard. It's not an attack on an entire civilization, culture or population to criticize the fascist dictates of it's leaders and the texts of the law, nor to attack a specific single member of an ideology for their actions and words.

To go off on a tangent for a moment, I have enough experience with North Africans, Palestinians, Lebanese, etc, to know that I know fuck all about their religion or their culture. I do know enough to realize that many of the people who are having a go at Islam are often talking out of their arses and making complete fools of themselves. And I'm afraid many of them are racists.

Anyway, I just feel that before being sceptical of Islam and pissing off moderate Muslims who could be our allies, we should be sceptical about some of the claims about muslims. I personally cannot see a time when we have Islamic law in the UK, regardless of how much Pat Condell froths at the mouth about it... nor do I think that many Muslims believe in 72 virgins or give a shit about drawings of Mohammed.

It is worth listening to a few lectures by Scott Atran, and possibly Marc Sageman and Robert Pape. To cut a long story short, they say that Islam is a red herring when it comes to suicide bombing and terrorism... worth baring in mind that military doctrine for the last 30-40 years has said that terrorism and insurgency is caused by injustice, real or perceived and their findings support this. As I said in my initial post, a lot of Muslim people have had a shitty time and the more extreme forms of Islam have both offered hope, and produced spectacular results. This is a fairly recent thing and the backlash against it has already begun. Moderate Muslims are pitted against extremists, I don't think it's productive to attack both sides, especially as this puts us in an alliance with Christians and Jews who seem to really want this fight.

That's not to say we can't criticize Islam and some of it's despicable practices, but I believe that there are battles far closer to home that we can win.

[Submariner]

Anyone else get the slight impression that Louis might be a bit butthurt.

http://www.freezepage.com/1359484495ELMJTZUUAY

I think welch made him cry

I think Louis' primary source of protein is the peanuts he picks out of P.Z. Meyer's shit.

I got an 86% on the humanist test, but only because the animals question didn't have a "I eat them whenever hungry" option.

I thought the humanist test was very strange. I didn't think you needed to have any particular beliefs about god, evolution, animals, or the environment in order to be a humanist, you just needed to have certain views about *humans*. Am I mixing it up with egalitarianism?

The same types of questions arose in my tiny submarine brain also.

Dive! Dive!
http://www.policeinterceptor.com/sounds/555klaxon.wav

[Metalogic42]

Anyway, I just feel that before being sceptical of Islam and pissing off moderate Muslims who could be our allies, we should be sceptical about some of the claims about muslims. I personally cannot see a time when we have Islamic law in the UK, regardless of how much Pat Condell froths at the mouth about it... nor do I think that many Muslims believe in 72 virgins or give a shit about drawings of Mohammed.

This is what I like to call the "loudness principle" - what people think about a group is heavily colored by the most vocal in that group. It's usually the case that the most radical are also the most vocal, so people's perceptions tend to get skewed. I actually asked a muslim acquaintance of mine about his religious views a few years ago, and he said (paraphrasing): "All I really care about is being a good person and running my restaurant".

[nippletwister]

Just saw a comment on Stephi-poo's recent post on FftB from Bennie. He is (lurking) under the impression that we are unhappy that anyone is going to WIS2. Um, are we? As I haven't gotten that impression.

Well, considering that they are all "good sceptics" they can see for themselves.......

Actoally, I'd like to see an additional person going to WIS2:

Karen Straughan “Girl Writes What”
:whistle:

That would be awesome. I can't say I am fully on board with every bit of her takes on evolutionary biology, but at least she's read something can understand it. Just her use of basic logic and non-feminist-manipulated statistics when dealing with the issues that feminists like to use politically is enough to send most of her detractors around the bend.

[Guest]

Frankly, people who happen to be muslims get a raw deal all over, especially the Palestinians. I happen to think that in humanity's long and shitty history, the creation of Israel is a low point.

Perish a thought that the Jews have a state eh?

In the 70-odd years of the Arab-Israeli conflict, less people have died than in the last few months in Syria.

Less people have died than in on average in a single day of WW2, or even probably WW1.

But no, that the Jews finally have a nation state like almost every other people on the planet is the "low point".

FFS.

Inbound: No such thing as a palestinian. There was no state of palestine. Was a territory without a people. All's fair.
Err, yeah, it just happened to coincide with the native population being jousted from their homes and being forced to live in encampments. The native population we nowadays refer to as "the Palestinians." And we all know how that conflict has gone since. The Israeli government did a smashing job with that blockade in the Gaza strip, or how they dealt with that ship with such dangerous shipment as clothes, food and building material, like timber. No, the citizens of Gaza must live as vagrants, and let's not forget the propaganda that followed. "Go back to Auschwitz" anyone? Brilliant work.

Erecting the state of Israel *was* one of the low points in history; not because it provided Jews with their own nation state, but because it deprived anothers of theirs. The British also wasn't too keen to object to the Zionists proclaiming the state independent, despite tensions brewing. It wasn't the fuel -- that had been pouring for quite a while before, with the treaties gone awry, and the Zionists and the Arab nationalists going at it, and so on -- but it was the spark that started the fire.

[VickyCaramel]

Frankly, people who happen to be muslims get a raw deal all over, especially the Palestinians. I happen to think that in humanity's long and shitty history, the creation of Israel is a low point.

Perish a thought that the Jews have a state eh?

In the 70-odd years of the Arab-Israeli conflict, less people have died than in the last few months in Syria.

Less people have died than in on average in a single day of WW2, or even probably WW1.

But no, that the Jews finally have a nation state like almost every other people on the planet is the "low point".

FFS.

The Jews have a state at the expense of the Palestinians.

Not true, as I've demonstrated.

But thats okay that the Jews have a state? Maybe the Moonies should get a state? Or how about the Republic of Scientology?

Are you going to argue that Jews aren't just a religion but a race? Okay the, how about we start setting up states on racial lines? That sounds progressive.

Jews are an ethnicity. You know, like Americans. Or Germans. Or that form the basis for just about every other fucking country on the planet.

Sorry dude, but your propaganda is years out of date.

You'll find if you look a little deeper that Israeli's use much more sophisticated bullshit now days. It sounds like you are getting your cool-aid from American Christian-Zionists... they still spout all that 19th century crap about 'A land without a people for a people without a land'.

Your arguments are on a par with, "If we evolved from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?".

There are whole websites dedicate to debunking Israeli propaganda... I know because I helped with the research on some of them. Been there, done that, got the T-Shirt (I really do have several T-Shirts), and seen enough photos of dead and maimed Palestinian children to last a lifetime. It's not a subject I want to revisit as I feel I have already done my bit. Sorry.

[masakari2012]

I am not sure how many people here can see these two Facebook threads that have blown up in the last few days (Brian Engler has about 2600 friends, so maybe there are a few here)
But I wanted to point them out:

WIS conference
Online harassment

The gist is discussion started by Engler about the WIS conference in May and online harassment in general.

Some of the main speakers are Harriet Hall and Barbara Drescher on one side and Ophelia Benson and Ellen Beth Wachs on the other.
I don't know how I feel about posting FB threads that are private to friends of the OP, but this is an important talk, and I know a few posters have sent links of this to Ron Lindsay (so he cannot pretend this is not going on.)

Here is a small section from the online harassment one:
http://i.imgur.com/MGH2mzQ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/87s6jzK.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/9hYqCx2.jpg

I could have sworn that I saw a post within the last few months where a woman at TAM was accused of lying, but I can't remember if it happened on twitter or facebook (probably twitter).

Here's some more goodies from Harriet Hall. The comments from the disagreer are no longer there, but it's good stuff regardless...
(oh, and this facebook thread is public, so I don't think there are any problems in sharing it).

[Pitchguest]

Pitchguest-

You're completely whitewashing the role of Islamic antisemitism in all this. You want to make a catalog of all of Israel's sins, that's fine, but put it in the proper context. People have been fighting over that region since old testament times, and probably before that. Suffice it to say that there are a few grudges. The misdeeds of some Israeli extremists, far from being some of the worst in history, are actually a little banal compared to the sort of thing that usually goes on there -- e.g. the ethnic cleansing that Hamas and just about every Islamic republic openly, proudly advocate.

The Jews are not leaving Israel. That's that. Carrying on about past grievances does nothing, least of all for the Palestinians.

I think that I'd be a bit pissed with my neighbors if the kept stealing my land, decided to build a 'security wall', and ghettoized my people. I guess the memory of the Jewish people is short. The Jews definitely didn't like it when it happened to them. "He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster." and all that jazz.

ffs. that's an insanely stupid comment.

http://www.oyvagoy.com/2013/01/26/david ... ople-card/

It is the “they-of-all-people” argument: the suggestion that the Jews, having faced extraordinary persecution, should know better than anyone not to be oppressors.

Put aside for a moment that the “oppression” which proponents of this argument are accusing Israel of committing is usually imaginary. When directed by gentiles towards Jews, the “they-of-all-people” argument is in its very essence so fundamentally ill-judged and unjust, and voiced with such a breathtaking lack of self-awareness, that my spirit flags when I hear it.

Let us strip the “they-of-all-people” argument down to its very basics: gentiles telling Jews that we killed six million of your people and that as a result it is you, not us, who have lessons to learn; that it is you, not us, who need to clean up your act. It is an argument of atrocious, spiteful insanity.

Yeah, yeah, the oppressed become the oppressors. And the wheel keeps turning...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rota_Fortunae

[bhoytony]

Sorry dude, but your propaganda is years out of date.

You'll find if you look a little deeper that Israeli's use much more sophisticated bullshit now days. It sounds like you are getting your cool-aid from American Christian-Zionists... they still spout all that 19th century crap about 'A land without a people for a people without a land'.

Your arguments are on a par with, "If we evolved from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?".

There are whole websites dedicate to debunking Israeli propaganda... I know because I helped with the research on some of them. Been there, done that, got the T-Shirt (I really do have several T-Shirts), and seen enough photos of dead and maimed Palestinian children to last a lifetime. It's not a subject I want to revisit as I feel I have already done my bit. Sorry.

Don't mind Git, he's from Norn Iron and knows all about stealing peoples land.

(That should do it. Exit stage right).

[Spence]

Am I just in time for another round of SlymePit LOLpolemics?

Is this the five minute LOLpolemic, or the full half hour?

[Dick Strawkins]

So, this: http://skepchick.org/2013/01/dragoncon- ... -molester/

Twatson decides she's a legal expert now. She starts off by saying "DragonCon has had the past 12 years to come up with a solution to cut him out, such as dissolving and reincorporating, but they haven’t." in the article, and then says this: "I’m not saying that I or Skepchick as a whole will definitely be boycotting DragonCon, as it’s something I have to think a lot about. But I do hope that DragonCon’s leadership will take this seriously and do the right thing, and save us all from a difficult decision."

Let's see what the comments say...

One of the links on srbissette.com claims that current Dragon*Con leadership tried to freeze Kramer out of his dividends but was forced by the courts to eventually pay him. It’ll be interesting to see what D*C does next.

Per what Phlebas says, and the details in the Atlanta Magazine article – it would seem that any payments being made to Kramer have only been done reluctantly. Quoting the article: “[Kramer] was forced to file the second suit last year in an effort to collect his 2011 dividend of $154,000.” Pat Henry refused to comment for the article, but reading between the lines there it seems like he’s trying to do the right thing here.

I used to be a Director of Dragon*Con (until 1997), so I’ve known Pat Henry for quite some time. (I’ve also knew Kramer back in those days, and visited his Duluth home mentioned in the article once, over 15 years ago). My impression is that Henry is a good person and trying to do the right thing. But like anyone, he is bound by legal agreements he’s entered into, and Dragon*Con’s incorporation LONG predates these accusations. I don’t think its reasonable to launch a boycott to try to get an organization to retroactively rewrite legal documents it couldn’t have known would have these implications.

They’ve cut Kramer out of the running of the convention, expunged him from the website, and so on. They’ve banned collections for Kramer’s legal fund. The lawsuits show they are not cooperating with him.

It sounds like the Dragoncon organization has tried to sever the links by attempting to buy Kramer out. They refused to have online fundraiser links for his legal fund, and are clearly no longer working with him in any way. They’re also regularly forcing him to sue for annual dividends, according to one of the articles you linked. That certainly sounds like they are making strong efforts to cut him out!

Suggesting that the organization needs to do something more ignores the legal steps they’re already taking, and the additional step of undergoing the legal costs and logistical nightmare of dissolving and reorganizing a 5 hotel convention without skipping a year of the convention actually being held is not a simple thing.

So yeah, it sounds like they're *trying* to cut him out of any financial gain from DragonCon, but unfortunately previous legal agreements prevent it. Basically, their hands are tied. So, Rebecca will listen to reason, right?





Silly me, of course not:

“Nancy Collins’ post implies that dissolving Dragon*Con as an organization and reforming it is a simple thing to do. I know absolutely nothing about such things, but I bet she’s wrong. ”

I agree. But still, it’s gotta be easier than paying this asshole $150K a year and/or going to court every year to fight paying him $150K.

I guess they should magically subvert the legal system to "do the right thing"? Finally, someone calls her out:

This is all beyond the realm of bullshit.
There is a butt-ton of legal reasons why even dissolving would not prevent any of this.
Kramer has ZERO, beyond ZERO to do with Dragon*Con since he was forced out. Any payments to him are due to legal requirements. Even *IF* the attempted to dissolve, (The stupidest idea ever), and re-form there would STILL be legal requirements due to … guess what… the law.

This is, yet another, tempest that people just want to make a big deal out of. Don’t be the equivalent of Dragon*Con 9/11 Truthers… we are skeptics for all that is reasonable.

And she responds:

“Kramer has ZERO, beyond ZERO to do with Dragon*Con since he was forced out.”

That is demonstrably untrue. They may want him to have zero to do with DragonCon but as a shareholder, he is very much still present. And it’s frankly ridiculous and insulting that you would cast these concerns as equivalent to a 9/11 conspiracy theory.

Leading to this absolute gem:

@Rebecca seriously? I know you are far more intelligent than any of this BS. This whole thing has been put way behind Dragon*Con for over 10 years. The man only gets paid due to LEGAL reasons. No matter what anyone does he still be owed.

Obviously, people love drama. So, keep going, obviously everyone at Dragon*Con is getting molested in the hallways left and right because some dude who has been under house arrest for over 10 years, and can’t even walk and requires heavy machinery just to walk has a mystical power over the energy of the entire convention!

Move along, nothing to see here… obviously.

Win.

This Ed Kramer thing was new to me, but then again I've never been to one of these conventions, never mind DragonCon. A small amount of googling, however, reveals that it was common knowledge amongst the DragonCon community since 2000 that Kramer was making money from Dragoncon attendees, and what's more, he was using this money to fund a legal defense against child molestation charges that have kept him out of prison for over a decade, and allowed him access to additional vunerable children.
I don't know about the rest of you but I don't think there is much of an ethical dilemma here. If you go to DragonCon you are financially supporting this guy's evasion of justice and putting children at risk.
Yes, it's a bit of a shitty situation but it's not something that's suddenly popped out of nowhere.
Why the sudden pang of conscience now from Watson?
Why was it fine for the skepchicks to attend in previous years but this year they suddenly discover a moral quandry.
Nothing to do with the fact that someone else is calling for a boycott and they are worried how they will look if they just ignore it?
Why didn't they do it themselves years ago?
Is the chance to have yet another party with their friends and sell some over-priced ceramic shite really worth the moral cost of subsidizing Kramer yet again?

[Pitchguest]

Dick Strawkins: That and I'm pretty sure her mates Melody and Amy Roth invited Hugo Schwyzer to Skepticon.

Makes you think, doesn't it? Vacula is persona non grata, Schwyzer is a-ok.

[Metalogic42]

I don't know about the rest of you but I don't think there is much of an ethical dilemma here. If you go to DragonCon you are financially supporting this guy's evasion of justice and putting children at risk.

I don't see it that way at all, because from the comments over on Skepchick critical of Watson, it looks like DragonCon is being legally forced to pay him, on technicalities, and they're trying to resolve it. It's a shitty situation, but I don't see it the same as I would someone donating money directly to him.

Plus, if spending money at DragonCon is a tacit approval of the pedophile just because a percentage of your money goes to him, it's also a tacit approval of those who currently run it - the people who are against him. Do those people deserve our money? I'd say yes (if you're a fan of the Con itself, and related products). They're not at any fault at all.

[Altair]

Ophelia's timeline is always full of interesting stuff, even if it's not written by her.

She has a RT that links to an article in VeganFeminista called "Sexism in the Animal Rights Movements"

One of their points is about a promotional stunt by some company called "Lush":
(Bolding mine)

Recently, Lush held a promotional stunt to protest packaging. How did they protest it? By having nearly naked women (wearing only aprons and high-heels) standing outside of their stores, handing out leaflets with information about their reduced-package products.

You can probably see the problems with this already. By using naked women to (supposedly) make a point about packaging, they’re comparing the women’s bodies to consumer products. They’re saying, “Hey look, isn’t it great that our women products aren’t all wrapped up? Wink wink, nudge nudge”.

It’s sexist and juvenile at the same time. And just like PeTA’s sexist campaigns, it’s also counter-productive. How many men came by just to look at the women, and get a pamphlet that they probably threw away without reading? That’s hardly a win for the environment, by the way.

In the original article, the first paragraph's last sentence is a link to another site: http://www.treehugger.com/style/lush-go ... aging.html

And right there we have a picture of those sexist women in aprons:

http://media.treehugger.com/assets/imag ... _naked.jpg

Now, the picture is not very big, but I'm sure the person at the right side is hiding a WCoA under that apron. How does that fit in with the sentences I bolded?

So, are the SJW's so inmersed in their own narrative where everything is sexist against women to be unable to even look at what they link to? Or are they counting on their readers being so inmersed in the same narrative that they won't look?

[nippletwister]

"Pat Condell dislikes Islam, and criticizes Muslims, of whom many happen to be brown people. Therefore, he is a racist."

Vs.

"Slymepitters dislike Patriarchy Theory, and criticize Feminists, of whom many happen to be women. Therefore, they are misogynists."

Just sayin'.

Exactly. Pat may sound a bit right-wing to some of us, but he has consistently criticized the religious and cultural baggage that causes problems, and those who try to force it on a secular society. He is not a bigot condemning brown people. He has repeatedly stated that he has no problem with immigration, as long as the immigrants are reasonably prepared to integrate, and not demand huge changes in the law or surrounding culture.

He complains about people pushing for sharia law as a valid alternative to the regular court system. Even though it could be compared to any other "arbitration" system, he doesn't buy that comparison because of the extremely strong cultural factors involved. Women will be treated badly by western standards, and encouraged to not go public with complaints. I agree.

He complains about western institutions considering serving only halal meat as the standard, because offering choices would be too costly or impractical, and seemingly, the complaints of minority activists are more important than the complaints of the majority. Many westerners do not like halal because of the suffering of the animal.

All of his complaints about Muslims immigrating have been on rational grounds, centered on those expecting large changes to their benefit, and none have been in any way racist or bigoted.

When I hear Americans complain about these things, I know they are stupid because none of these are even real possibilities here, at least not now. But as far as other smaller countries with large numbers of immigrants go, I think it's wise to at least listen to those who deal with the issues directly.

So.....anybody from England? What do you all think of Pat Condell?

[Cupid Stunt]

"Pat Condell dislikes Islam, and criticizes Muslims, of whom many happen to be brown people. Therefore, he is a racist."

Vs.

"Slymepitters dislike Patriarchy Theory, and criticize Feminists, of whom many happen to be women. Therefore, they are misogynists."

Just sayin'.

Exactly. Pat may sound a bit right-wing to some of us, but he has consistently criticized the religious and cultural baggage that causes problems, and those who try to force it on a secular society. He is not a bigot condemning brown people. He has repeatedly stated that he has no problem with immigration, as long as the immigrants are reasonably prepared to integrate, and not demand huge changes in the law or surrounding culture.

He complains about people pushing for sharia law as a valid alternative to the regular court system. Even though it could be compared to any other "arbitration" system, he doesn't buy that comparison because of the extremely strong cultural factors involved. Women will be treated badly by western standards, and encouraged to not go public with complaints. I agree.

He complains about western institutions considering serving only halal meat as the standard, because offering choices would be too costly or impractical, and seemingly, the complaints of minority activists are more important than the complaints of the majority. Many westerners do not like halal because of the suffering of the animal.

All of his complaints about Muslims immigrating have been on rational grounds, centered on those expecting large changes to their benefit, and none have been in any way racist or bigoted.

When I hear Americans complain about these things, I know they are stupid because none of these are even real possibilities here, at least not now. But as far as other smaller countries with large numbers of immigrants go, I think it's wise to at least listen to those who deal with the issues directly.

So.....anybody from England? What do you all think of Pat Condell?

He is right on the money.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-21142148

A BBC report of what is starting to happen in East London because we are tolerating the intolerant.

[katamari Damassi]

About the paleo-diet. It's a great way potentially fuck up his kidneys forever AND get a husband whose breath smells of rotting meat.

It's not the Atkins diet. You don't go into ketosis. You can have all the carbs you want in the form of fruits and veggies. The idea is to eat nutrient dense foods. Grains have nothing to offer except fiber which can be gotten elsewhere.

[Dick Strawkins]

I don't know about the rest of you but I don't think there is much of an ethical dilemma here. If you go to DragonCon you are financially supporting this guy's evasion of justice and putting children at risk.

I don't see it that way at all, because from the comments over on Skepchick critical of Watson, it looks like DragonCon is being legally forced to pay him, on technicalities, and they're trying to resolve it. It's a shitty situation, but I don't see it the same as I would someone donating money directly to him.

Plus, if spending money at DragonCon is a tacit approval of the pedophile just because a percentage of your money goes to him, it's also a tacit approval of those who currently run it - the people who are against him. Do those people deserve our money? I'd say yes (if you're a fan of the Con itself, and related products). They're not at any fault at all.

What do you mean by "technicalities".
From my reading of the situation Kramer holds 34% of the stock of DragonCon, a company he founded, from which he gets the right to profit if the convention is financially successful.
That is hardly a technicality, it's a standard business model!
He doesn't want to sell the stock?
Welcome to capitalism and the free market!
Why on earth should he sell? The stocks currently bring him in a lot of much needed money (needed to fund his lawyer)

I criticise Catholics who add to the collection plates at mass because I know a proportion of that money goes to Rome, where it is used to fund lawyers who work protecting child molesting priests from justice.

Is there really such a big qualitative difference in the DragonCon situation?

[Mr Danksworth]

You know, what we really need right now is less Skepticism and more Zionist Ideology.

Hear, Hear! I worked in a Zionist synagogue in my youth. I was the Shabbas Goy. I got to hear their ideology first hand. As far as they are concerned, it's all their land, and they referred to the Palestinians as 'mongrel dogs'. I was also told that the only thing that could make me better, was if I was Jew. Stay classy.

[welch]

Because for Stephanie Zvan to know me as well as she thinks she does she would have to be psychic...
http://reapsowradio.com/graphics/zvanpsychic2.png

Love the Spivey hair.

[VickyCaramel]

"Pat Condell dislikes Islam, and criticizes Muslims, of whom many happen to be brown people. Therefore, he is a racist."

Vs.

"Slymepitters dislike Patriarchy Theory, and criticize Feminists, of whom many happen to be women. Therefore, they are misogynists."

Just sayin'.

Exactly. Pat may sound a bit right-wing to some of us, but he has consistently criticized the religious and cultural baggage that causes problems, and those who try to force it on a secular society. He is not a bigot condemning brown people. He has repeatedly stated that he has no problem with immigration, as long as the immigrants are reasonably prepared to integrate, and not demand huge changes in the law or surrounding culture.

He complains about people pushing for sharia law as a valid alternative to the regular court system. Even though it could be compared to any other "arbitration" system, he doesn't buy that comparison because of the extremely strong cultural factors involved. Women will be treated badly by western standards, and encouraged to not go public with complaints. I agree.

He complains about western institutions considering serving only halal meat as the standard, because offering choices would be too costly or impractical, and seemingly, the complaints of minority activists are more important than the complaints of the majority. Many westerners do not like halal because of the suffering of the animal.

All of his complaints about Muslims immigrating have been on rational grounds, centered on those expecting large changes to their benefit, and none have been in any way racist or bigoted.

When I hear Americans complain about these things, I know they are stupid because none of these are even real possibilities here, at least not now. But as far as other smaller countries with large numbers of immigrants go, I think it's wise to at least listen to those who deal with the issues directly.

So.....anybody from England? What do you all think of Pat Condell?

He is right on the money.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-21142148

A BBC report of what is starting to happen in East London because we are tolerating the intolerant.

Looks like the police dealt with that before Pat Condell could put on his mask and cape.

[welch]

Hey there, 'pitters :) My guy is home safe and sound (as of yesterday). We still don't know anything but at least the mass is gone.

Once again, I'm not going to even try to catch up. Anything fun going on?

There is a screenshot of a facebook conversation where Ophelia tries to argue that saying "she's lying" is different than saying "I don't believe her". That's my favorite.

There's also a conversation about islamophobia going on, and a screenshot of an A+ post that says that talking on internet is doing activism.

Oh, and a really really good picture of Kate Upton in a wet t-shirt :dance:

Well, technically, disbelief and accusing someone of lying are different. People say shit I don't believe all the time, but that doesn't mean I think they are lying. They could be mistaken, or sincerely believe what they are saying is true. Lying is a rather specific thing, and what Ophie describes is entirely possible. I both disbelieve her AND think she's lying, but the two are not joined at the hip.

[Guest]

Relevant.

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/churc ... 2dj1e.html

[welch]

Just got back from the doctor's office. Turns out I've got a rather nasty case of diabetes to add to my collection.

Here's my new best friend:

http://www.alstefanelli.com/testmachine.jpg

If you get Elephantitus of the nuts, I get BINGO!

GROW YOU WRINKLY BASTARDS, GROW!

[Dick Strawkins]

So.....anybody from England? What do you all think of Pat Condell?

I'm not from England, although I did live there for a few years and got to know the politics a bit.

Condell got a lot of support from atheists at the beginning of his youtube rant career. It seemed that he was acting as a bargain store Hitchens, aggressively taking the argument to the religious and not being cowed by even the most dangerous faiths. Unfortunately Condell rapidly focused on just Islam and while he had some good points, it did appear, worryingly, that his rhetoric was becoming very similar to that of certain anti-immigration groups. The final straw for me came when he openly advocated voting in the general election for a anti-immigration party that was promoting sectarian Christian policies within education.

[Jan Steen]

Anyone else get the slight impression that Louis might be a bit butthurt.

http://www.freezepage.com/1359484495ELMJTZUUAY

I think welch made him cry

He is afraid that the horde may take him for a Slymepitter, so he is reclaiming his cosy spot in the Borg by saying all the right things, but a little bit too loudly.

[welch]

Anyone else get the slight impression that Louis might be a bit butthurt.

http://www.freezepage.com/1359484495ELMJTZUUAY

I think welch made him cry

when? I make a lot of people cry, you have to be more specific here.

[welch]

Anyone else get the slight impression that Louis might be a bit butthurt.

http://www.freezepage.com/1359484495ELMJTZUUAY

I think welch made him cry

I think Louis' primary source of protein is the peanuts he picks out of P.Z. Meyer's shit.

Nah. He strains them on his baleen, more efficient that way.

[welch]

Blood libel or who killed the probably ficticious Jesus are completely different matters.
Are you telling me that the Palmach and Haganah didn't drive whole villages away even before the 1948 war?

Non-sequitur. No one is denying that those types of events happened. But it was par for the course for such types of conflicts at that time (and indeed since), and if we look at overall events of the formation of nation states in even the 20th century (our supposedly most civilised time), what happened in the formation of Israel is very small beans instead

As someone noted above, funny how the killing of say, 10 Arabs by Jews is treated as some sort of earth-shattering calamity, but the murder of 10,000 Arabs by other Arabs is completely ignored, and indeed often minimised and excused, eh?

Are you jewish, Git?

That sort of question probably sounded better in the original German.

Godwin'd in pinnnnk

Echo & The Genocidal Bunnymen!

[Dick Strawkins]

Anyone else get the slight impression that Louis might be a bit butthurt.

http://www.freezepage.com/1359484495ELMJTZUUAY

I think welch made him cry

He is afraid that the horde may take him for a Slymepitter, so he is reclaiming his cosy spot in the Borg by saying all the right things, but a little bit too loudly.

I'm still amazed that he seemed to think that all he'd need to do is turn up here, state "I refute it thus" and we'd all fall over, devastated by his wit, bravery and phenomenal brain-power. He actually came across as worse than oolon!
Brave, brave, brave, brave Sir Louis!

[Jan Steen]

To be honest, this is going to be one of the most challenging things for me, even more so than my Parkinson's, the three other autoimmune diseases I have, and the various other disabilities. Mainly, because I love to eat (which is probably one of the reasons aside from genetics that I have diabetes in the first place).

You must be a very healthy guy that you can survive so many diseases and disabilities. Check your privilege. But seriously, all the best with your medical struggles.

[Git]

Frankly, people who happen to be muslims get a raw deal all over, especially the Palestinians. I happen to think that in humanity's long and shitty history, the creation of Israel is a low point.

Perish a thought that the Jews have a state eh?

In the 70-odd years of the Arab-Israeli conflict, less people have died than in the last few months in Syria.

Less people have died than in on average in a single day of WW2, or even probably WW1.

But no, that the Jews finally have a nation state like almost every other people on the planet is the "low point".

FFS.

The Jews have a state at the expense of the Palestinians.

Not true, as I've demonstrated.

But thats okay that the Jews have a state? Maybe the Moonies should get a state? Or how about the Republic of Scientology?

Are you going to argue that Jews aren't just a religion but a race? Okay the, how about we start setting up states on racial lines? That sounds progressive.

Jews are an ethnicity. You know, like Americans. Or Germans. Or that form the basis for just about every other fucking country on the planet.

Sorry dude, but your propaganda is years out of date.

You'll find if you look a little deeper that Israeli's use much more sophisticated bullshit now days. It sounds like you are getting your cool-aid from American Christian-Zionists... they still spout all that 19th century crap about 'A land without a people for a people without a land'.

Your arguments are on a par with, "If we evolved from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?".

There are whole websites dedicate to debunking Israeli propaganda... I know because I helped with the research on some of them. Been there, done that, got the T-Shirt (I really do have several T-Shirts), and seen enough photos of dead and maimed Palestinian children to last a lifetime. It's not a subject I want to revisit as I feel I have already done my bit. Sorry.

I mean this kindly, Vicky, but go fuck yourself.

Don't you fucking dare suggest I am getting anything from anything other than my own logic and my own thought processes. Take your Chomskyite bullshit and stick it where the sun doesn't shine.

Up above you posted yet another special-pleading screed basically excusing Islam and giving it special treatment. So fuck off again for that. Typical fucking liberal Dhimmitude bullshit.

Again, just fuck off you worthless piece of terrorist-supporting shit.

[Cunning Punt]

Pitchguest-

You're completely whitewashing the role of Islamic antisemitism in all this. You want to make a catalog of all of Israel's sins, that's fine, but put it in the proper context. People have been fighting over that region since old testament times, and probably before that. Suffice it to say that there are a few grudges. The misdeeds of some Israeli extremists, far from being some of the worst in history, are actually a little banal compared to the sort of thing that usually goes on there -- e.g. the ethnic cleansing that Hamas and just about every Islamic republic openly, proudly advocate.

The Jews are not leaving Israel. That's that. Carrying on about past grievances does nothing, least of all for the Palestinians.

But they keep on building more and more settlements.

[welch]

Anyone else get the slight impression that Louis might be a bit butthurt.

http://www.freezepage.com/1359484495ELMJTZUUAY

I think welch made him cry

It is apparent that Louis is upset about something and has some issues to get off hischest.
I wonder why he didn't argue his case better the last time he visited?
Oh, well. Yelling "TF00t is a misogynist lolololol" and running off without backing the claim up with evidence is good enough for a Pharyngulite I suppose.

I guess he was better than the average. In that, he did finally take the time to go visit the subject of his constant whining. It only took >6 months of its existence for him to check out the claims being made by Peezus. Skepticism FTW!

Ohhhh...THAT Louis. Fuck, sunday makes him cry, little baby.

[TheMan]

I got an 86% on the humanist test, but only because the animals question didn't have a "I eat them whenever hungry" option.

I scored the same as PeeZuss Christ ... 90%.

Try this one:

Reading the Mind in the Eyes Test (Revised, Adult)
http://www.questionwritertracker.com/qu ... K3TKB.html
My results were:

Your Score 20
Total Possible 36
An average score for this test is 26.2, or 21.9 for an adult with Asperger Syndrome or High-Functioning Autism

Not that it told me anything I did not know before. It also did not test for some things I believe I am good at spotting.

I scored 22.... what I suspected

[Dick Strawkins]

Oh for fuck sake, enough with the Israeli Palestine wars.
I'm beginning to wish Rystefn turns up with more stories about his sex life, or guns, just to change the subject.
Yes.
It's that bad.

Either that or we build a security wall around Git.

[welch]

Frankly, people who happen to be muslims get a raw deal all over, especially the Palestinians. I happen to think that in humanity's long and shitty history, the creation of Israel is a low point.

Perish a thought that the Jews have a state eh?

In the 70-odd years of the Arab-Israeli conflict, less people have died than in the last few months in Syria.

Less people have died than in on average in a single day of WW2, or even probably WW1.

But no, that the Jews finally have a nation state like almost every other people on the planet is the "low point".

FFS.

The Jews have a state at the expense of the Palestinians.

Not true, as I've demonstrated.

But thats okay that the Jews have a state? Maybe the Moonies should get a state? Or how about the Republic of Scientology?

Are you going to argue that Jews aren't just a religion but a race? Okay the, how about we start setting up states on racial lines? That sounds progressive.

Jews are an ethnicity. You know, like Americans. Or Germans. Or that form the basis for just about every other fucking country on the planet.

Wait, when the fuck did living in the US make you a fucking ethnic group? How the fuck does that even work? Look, I agree that being jewish is far, far more than the Torah, the Talmud, and keeping Kosher, (or not), but that literally makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER.

[another lurker]

Oh for fuck sake, enough with the Israeli Palestine wars.
I'm beginning to wish Rystefn turns up with more stories about his sex life, or guns, just to change the subject.
Yes.
It's that bad.

Either that or we build a security wall around Git.

big hugs.jpg

(40.63 KiB) Downloaded 119 times

I like to bring this lovely picture out, for just such occasions :)

[Git]

Oh for fuck sake, enough with the Israeli Palestine wars.
I'm beginning to wish Rystefn turns up with more stories about his sex life, or guns, just to change the subject.
Yes.
It's that bad.

Either that or we build a security wall around Git.

You might want to ask the original poster, who was in a huff that a Jew (Jerry Coyne) dared to find a blatantly anti-semitic cartoon to be more than a wee bit problematic.

[welch]

So, this: http://skepchick.org/2013/01/dragoncon- ... -molester/

Twatson decides she's a legal expert now. She starts off by saying "DragonCon has had the past 12 years to come up with a solution to cut him out, such as dissolving and reincorporating, but they haven’t." in the article, and then says this: "I’m not saying that I or Skepchick as a whole will definitely be boycotting DragonCon, as it’s something I have to think a lot about. But I do hope that DragonCon’s leadership will take this seriously and do the right thing, and save us all from a difficult decision."

Let's see what the comments say...

One of the links on srbissette.com claims that current Dragon*Con leadership tried to freeze Kramer out of his dividends but was forced by the courts to eventually pay him. It’ll be interesting to see what D*C does next.

Per what Phlebas says, and the details in the Atlanta Magazine article – it would seem that any payments being made to Kramer have only been done reluctantly. Quoting the article: “[Kramer] was forced to file the second suit last year in an effort to collect his 2011 dividend of $154,000.” Pat Henry refused to comment for the article, but reading between the lines there it seems like he’s trying to do the right thing here.

I used to be a Director of Dragon*Con (until 1997), so I’ve known Pat Henry for quite some time. (I’ve also knew Kramer back in those days, and visited his Duluth home mentioned in the article once, over 15 years ago). My impression is that Henry is a good person and trying to do the right thing. But like anyone, he is bound by legal agreements he’s entered into, and Dragon*Con’s incorporation LONG predates these accusations. I don’t think its reasonable to launch a boycott to try to get an organization to retroactively rewrite legal documents it couldn’t have known would have these implications.

They’ve cut Kramer out of the running of the convention, expunged him from the website, and so on. They’ve banned collections for Kramer’s legal fund. The lawsuits show they are not cooperating with him.

It sounds like the Dragoncon organization has tried to sever the links by attempting to buy Kramer out. They refused to have online fundraiser links for his legal fund, and are clearly no longer working with him in any way. They’re also regularly forcing him to sue for annual dividends, according to one of the articles you linked. That certainly sounds like they are making strong efforts to cut him out!

Suggesting that the organization needs to do something more ignores the legal steps they’re already taking, and the additional step of undergoing the legal costs and logistical nightmare of dissolving and reorganizing a 5 hotel convention without skipping a year of the convention actually being held is not a simple thing.

So yeah, it sounds like they're *trying* to cut him out of any financial gain from DragonCon, but unfortunately previous legal agreements prevent it. Basically, their hands are tied. So, Rebecca will listen to reason, right?





Silly me, of course not:

“Nancy Collins’ post implies that dissolving Dragon*Con as an organization and reforming it is a simple thing to do. I know absolutely nothing about such things, but I bet she’s wrong. ”

I agree. But still, it’s gotta be easier than paying this asshole $150K a year and/or going to court every year to fight paying him $150K.

I guess they should magically subvert the legal system to "do the right thing"? Finally, someone calls her out:

This is all beyond the realm of bullshit.
There is a butt-ton of legal reasons why even dissolving would not prevent any of this.
Kramer has ZERO, beyond ZERO to do with Dragon*Con since he was forced out. Any payments to him are due to legal requirements. Even *IF* the attempted to dissolve, (The stupidest idea ever), and re-form there would STILL be legal requirements due to … guess what… the law.

This is, yet another, tempest that people just want to make a big deal out of. Don’t be the equivalent of Dragon*Con 9/11 Truthers… we are skeptics for all that is reasonable.

And she responds:

“Kramer has ZERO, beyond ZERO to do with Dragon*Con since he was forced out.”

That is demonstrably untrue. They may want him to have zero to do with DragonCon but as a shareholder, he is very much still present. And it’s frankly ridiculous and insulting that you would cast these concerns as equivalent to a 9/11 conspiracy theory.

Leading to this absolute gem:

@Rebecca seriously? I know you are far more intelligent than any of this BS. This whole thing has been put way behind Dragon*Con for over 10 years. The man only gets paid due to LEGAL reasons. No matter what anyone does he still be owed.

Obviously, people love drama. So, keep going, obviously everyone at Dragon*Con is getting molested in the hallways left and right because some dude who has been under house arrest for over 10 years, and can’t even walk and requires heavy machinery just to walk has a mystical power over the energy of the entire convention!

Move along, nothing to see here… obviously.

Win.

And there is the entire issue that he hasn't had a fucking trial yet. He is *accused* of crimes, he has not been *convicted* in a court of law yet. I understand, (BELIEVE ME) the emotions that accusations of certain crimes, especially when the evidence doesn't look good for the defendant creates, but, even when it sucks, even when it causes pain, the presumption of innocence is a fucking important keystone for our legal system, and when we ignore that, we get not trials, but *lynchings*.

He has not yet had a day in court, nor been convicted. I completely agree he is a fucking douchnozzle on every level, but no, popular opinion is not allowed to convict people before the evidence is presented and evaluated. Fuck me, that's Marcotte shit.

[VickyCaramel]

I mean this kindly, Vicky, but go fuck yourself.

Don't you fucking dare suggest I am getting anything from anything other than my own logic and my own thought processes. Take your Chomskyite bullshit and stick it where the sun doesn't shine.

Up above you posted yet another special-pleading screed basically excusing Islam and giving it special treatment. So fuck off again for that. Typical fucking liberal Dhimmitude bullshit.

Again, just fuck off you worthless piece of terrorist-supporting shit.

I'm not sure how you got that I am liberal or terrorist-supporting?

Your logic and thought processes might work better if you process properly what you read.

[free thoughtpolice]

I think Kurds are fucking troublemakers.

[Git]

Wait, when the fuck did living in the US make you a fucking ethnic group? How the fuck does that even work? Look, I agree that being jewish is far, far more than the Torah, the Talmud, and keeping Kosher, (or not), but that literally makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER.

OK, fair point, the US is a bad example. But by and large, with exceptions of course, nationalities tend to originate in many many cases on ethnicities. Take for example the former Yugoslavia for example. There is a common genetic component to the Jewish people, and this is reflected in their status in UK (and many other country's laws), where they are treated, like Sikhs, as having "common heritage".

A related point is this: no one ever demands that Pakistan and India merge into a "one state solution". Yet Israel has more legitimacy than either of these states, and I'd reckon more than the United States and Canada.

[Git]

And its those blatant double standards that fucking piss me off big time.

[HoneyWagon]

I got an 86% on the humanist test, but only because the animals question didn't have a "I eat them whenever hungry" option.

I scored the same as PeeZuss Christ ... 90%.

Try this one:

Reading the Mind in the Eyes Test (Revised, Adult)
http://www.questionwritertracker.com/qu ... K3TKB.html
My results were:

Your Score 20
Total Possible 36
An average score for this test is 26.2, or 21.9 for an adult with Asperger Syndrome or High-Functioning Autism

Not that it told me anything I did not know before. It also did not test for some things I believe I am good at spotting.

I got a 25.

Thanks for the link. That was kind of fun.

I just got a 30. But I can see why people who have trouble with visual clues have it hard more so now. So many of those eyes look similar to each other.

[BarnOwl]

30/36. I suppose I need to check my eyeball privilege.

29/36. Neurotypical privilege!11!!1!!

Did you notice any pattern to the ones you missed? Apparently I'm not so good at recognizing "hostile" and "defiant."

[nippletwister]

Oh for fuck sake, enough with the Israeli Palestine wars.
I'm beginning to wish Rystefn turns up with more stories about his sex life, or guns, just to change the subject.
Yes.
It's that bad.

Either that or we build a security wall around Git.

You might want to ask the original poster, who was in a huff that a Jew (Jerry Coyne) dared to find a blatantly anti-semitic cartoon to be more than a wee bit problematic.

I see you never bothered to give any of my previous questions about the cartoon any thought at all. Your attempts to call "blood libel" were idiotic dogshit, as were your claims of outrageous stereotyping.

"Blatantly Anti-Semitic".....yeah, that's complete bullshit, unless maybe you are looking at all times to take exaggerated offence, and hold that Jews are an elevated people who can never be criticized the same way everyone else in the world is. The Arabic-looking "victims" in the cartoon were more caricatured than Netanyahu was, probably just to cut short stupid complaints like yours. But you can't deny a willing victim their oppression, I guess I should know that by now.

Funny thing, Git, I have a pretty conservative outlook on Israel issues, we could probably get along, if you weren't so into playing the same victim games of exaggeration and hypocrisy that are mocked so often here. You could probably find a cozy spot a the A+ forums....or maybe not, since they've all decided that genocide pales in comparison to the horrific oppression of ill-fitting clothes and food sensitivity issues.

[VickyCaramel]

A related point is this: no one ever demands that Pakistan and India merge into a "one state solution". Yet Israel has more legitimacy than either of these states, and I'd reckon more than the United States and Canada.

Sure, because Israel belongs to the Jews, ever since they marched out of the desert and god gave it to them. I blame the Romans who completely cleared the promised land of every single last Jew so that those pesky Palestinians could materialize out of thin fucking air and steal their land... it was probably demon magic. Palestinians are probably demons as they obviously have no semitic heritage and just kinda appeared.

Israel is completely legit. The bible (sorta) says so.

Good point. You are a genius. I don't know why I never noticed this before.

[Dick Strawkins]

So, this: http://skepchick.org/2013/01/dragoncon- ... -molester/

Twatson decides she's a legal expert now. She starts off by saying "DragonCon has had the past 12 years to come up with a solution to cut him out, such as dissolving and reincorporating, but they haven’t." in the article, and then says this: "I’m not saying that I or Skepchick as a whole will definitely be boycotting DragonCon, as it’s something I have to think a lot about. But I do hope that DragonCon’s leadership will take this seriously and do the right thing, and save us all from a difficult decision."

Let's see what the comments say...

One of the links on srbissette.com claims that current Dragon*Con leadership tried to freeze Kramer out of his dividends but was forced by the courts to eventually pay him. It’ll be interesting to see what D*C does next.

Per what Phlebas says, and the details in the Atlanta Magazine article – it would seem that any payments being made to Kramer have only been done reluctantly. Quoting the article: “[Kramer] was forced to file the second suit last year in an effort to collect his 2011 dividend of $154,000.” Pat Henry refused to comment for the article, but reading between the lines there it seems like he’s trying to do the right thing here.

I used to be a Director of Dragon*Con (until 1997), so I’ve known Pat Henry for quite some time. (I’ve also knew Kramer back in those days, and visited his Duluth home mentioned in the article once, over 15 years ago). My impression is that Henry is a good person and trying to do the right thing. But like anyone, he is bound by legal agreements he’s entered into, and Dragon*Con’s incorporation LONG predates these accusations. I don’t think its reasonable to launch a boycott to try to get an organization to retroactively rewrite legal documents it couldn’t have known would have these implications.

They’ve cut Kramer out of the running of the convention, expunged him from the website, and so on. They’ve banned collections for Kramer’s legal fund. The lawsuits show they are not cooperating with him.

It sounds like the Dragoncon organization has tried to sever the links by attempting to buy Kramer out. They refused to have online fundraiser links for his legal fund, and are clearly no longer working with him in any way. They’re also regularly forcing him to sue for annual dividends, according to one of the articles you linked. That certainly sounds like they are making strong efforts to cut him out!

Suggesting that the organization needs to do something more ignores the legal steps they’re already taking, and the additional step of undergoing the legal costs and logistical nightmare of dissolving and reorganizing a 5 hotel convention without skipping a year of the convention actually being held is not a simple thing.

So yeah, it sounds like they're *trying* to cut him out of any financial gain from DragonCon, but unfortunately previous legal agreements prevent it. Basically, their hands are tied. So, Rebecca will listen to reason, right?





Silly me, of course not:

“Nancy Collins’ post implies that dissolving Dragon*Con as an organization and reforming it is a simple thing to do. I know absolutely nothing about such things, but I bet she’s wrong. ”

I agree. But still, it’s gotta be easier than paying this asshole $150K a year and/or going to court every year to fight paying him $150K.

I guess they should magically subvert the legal system to "do the right thing"? Finally, someone calls her out:

This is all beyond the realm of bullshit.
There is a butt-ton of legal reasons why even dissolving would not prevent any of this.
Kramer has ZERO, beyond ZERO to do with Dragon*Con since he was forced out. Any payments to him are due to legal requirements. Even *IF* the attempted to dissolve, (The stupidest idea ever), and re-form there would STILL be legal requirements due to … guess what… the law.

This is, yet another, tempest that people just want to make a big deal out of. Don’t be the equivalent of Dragon*Con 9/11 Truthers… we are skeptics for all that is reasonable.

And she responds:

“Kramer has ZERO, beyond ZERO to do with Dragon*Con since he was forced out.”

That is demonstrably untrue. They may want him to have zero to do with DragonCon but as a shareholder, he is very much still present. And it’s frankly ridiculous and insulting that you would cast these concerns as equivalent to a 9/11 conspiracy theory.

Leading to this absolute gem:

@Rebecca seriously? I know you are far more intelligent than any of this BS. This whole thing has been put way behind Dragon*Con for over 10 years. The man only gets paid due to LEGAL reasons. No matter what anyone does he still be owed.

Obviously, people love drama. So, keep going, obviously everyone at Dragon*Con is getting molested in the hallways left and right because some dude who has been under house arrest for over 10 years, and can’t even walk and requires heavy machinery just to walk has a mystical power over the energy of the entire convention!

Move along, nothing to see here… obviously.

Win.

And there is the entire issue that he hasn't had a fucking trial yet. He is *accused* of crimes, he has not been *convicted* in a court of law yet. I understand, (BELIEVE ME) the emotions that accusations of certain crimes, especially when the evidence doesn't look good for the defendant creates, but, even when it sucks, even when it causes pain, the presumption of innocence is a fucking important keystone for our legal system, and when we ignore that, we get not trials, but *lynchings*.

He has not yet had a day in court, nor been convicted. I completely agree he is a fucking douchnozzle on every level, but no, popular opinion is not allowed to convict people before the evidence is presented and evaluated. Fuck me, that's Marcotte shit.

It's hardly like he hasn't been given an opportunity to have his day in court.
It's been over 12 YEARS since the original charges were made and his entire strategy is consistant with someone who has one single intention - to delay the case against him for as long as legally possible.
In the meantime he is able to have his freedom and has been caught in a hotelroom with a naked underage boy.
Yes, nothing proven in court. Yet.
The problem here is that continuing to support him financially seems to be closely connected with his avoidance of the court case.
These are serious charges and we probably both agree that he deserves to put forward his case.
The question is whether treating him as 'innocent until proven guilty' is the ethical policy here.
I am not saying we should lynch him, just that giving him money isn't helping to quickly resolve the situation.
There is a saying that 'justice delayed is justice denied' that may well apply here.

[CommanderTuvok]

Harriet Hall hitting Ophelia Benson for a home run, Steven Novella's refreshing take on things, and Michael Heath's takedown of Ophelia. What a last 24 hours or so.

Notice how Ophelia had to retreat back to her own blog, write up a "sob sob" article, and get her commentators to placate her cognitive dissonance and pat her on the back. All the Baboons are the same - whenever they are challenged on territory they can't control, they scarper back to their owns blogs, where they can moderate, censor, memory hole and keep the narrative under control.

The losers.

[Dick Strawkins]

Harriet Hall hitting Ophelia Benson for a home run, Steven Novella's refreshing take on things, and Michael Heath's takedown of Ophelia. What a last 24 hours or so.

Notice how Ophelia had to retreat back to her own blog, write up a "sob sob" article, and get her commentators to placate her cognitive dissonance and pat her on the back. All the Baboons are the same - whenever they are challenged on territory they can't control, they scarper back to their owns blogs, where they can moderate, censor, memory hole and keep the narrative under control.

The losers.

Speaking of Steven Novella, has anyone heard the rumor that Rebecca is furious about today's article and has decided to fire him from the Skepchicks Guide to the Universe? ;)

[welch]

Perish a thought that the Jews have a state eh?

In the 70-odd years of the Arab-Israeli conflict, less people have died than in the last few months in Syria.

Less people have died than in on average in a single day of WW2, or even probably WW1.

But no, that the Jews finally have a nation state like almost every other people on the planet is the "low point".

FFS.

The Jews have a state at the expense of the Palestinians.

Not true, as I've demonstrated.

But thats okay that the Jews have a state? Maybe the Moonies should get a state? Or how about the Republic of Scientology?

Are you going to argue that Jews aren't just a religion but a race? Okay the, how about we start setting up states on racial lines? That sounds progressive.

Jews are an ethnicity. You know, like Americans. Or Germans. Or that form the basis for just about every other fucking country on the planet.

Sorry dude, but your propaganda is years out of date.

You'll find if you look a little deeper that Israeli's use much more sophisticated bullshit now days. It sounds like you are getting your cool-aid from American Christian-Zionists... they still spout all that 19th century crap about 'A land without a people for a people without a land'.

Your arguments are on a par with, "If we evolved from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?".

There are whole websites dedicate to debunking Israeli propaganda... I know because I helped with the research on some of them. Been there, done that, got the T-Shirt (I really do have several T-Shirts), and seen enough photos of dead and maimed Palestinian children to last a lifetime. It's not a subject I want to revisit as I feel I have already done my bit. Sorry.

I mean this kindly, Vicky, but go fuck yourself.

Don't you fucking dare suggest I am getting anything from anything other than my own logic and my own thought processes. Take your Chomskyite bullshit and stick it where the sun doesn't shine.

Up above you posted yet another special-pleading screed basically excusing Islam and giving it special treatment. So fuck off again for that. Typical fucking liberal Dhimmitude bullshit.

Again, just fuck off you worthless piece of terrorist-supporting shit.

FTB is over there ==>

FYI

[BannedAid]

Pitchguest-

You're completely whitewashing the role of Islamic antisemitism in all this. You want to make a catalog of all of Israel's sins, that's fine, but put it in the proper context. People have been fighting over that region since old testament times, and probably before that. Suffice it to say that there are a few grudges. The misdeeds of some Israeli extremists, far from being some of the worst in history, are actually a little banal compared to the sort of thing that usually goes on there -- e.g. the ethnic cleansing that Hamas and just about every Islamic republic openly, proudly advocate.

The Jews are not leaving Israel. That's that. Carrying on about past grievances does nothing, least of all for the Palestinians.

But they keep on building more and more settlements.

And the Palestinians keep electing Hamas.

I would agree that Israel should pull out of the West Bank. Unfortunately, with every rocket attack/suicide bombing, with every Hamas election victory, the Palestinians are giving cover to the Israeli far-right to justify the incursions as a buffer.

Not directed to you, but just to put it out there--

The case for the historical legitimacy of Israel couldn't be more irrelevant. Israel exists. Unless you're willing to sign on for another round of ethnic cleansing, it's going to keep existing. The only discussion at this point should be how to make the two-state solution work.

[lonesagi]

30/36. I suppose I need to check my eyeball privilege.

29/36. Neurotypical privilege!11!!1!!

Did you notice any pattern to the ones you missed? Apparently I'm not so good at recognizing "hostile" and "defiant."

I think I missed three of the "flirtatious" and "desires", and the three were one-offs.

[welch]

I think Kurds are fucking troublemakers.

Fuck yeah they are. Especially when you're all set to have a nice bowl of cereal and bang! fucking kurds ruin it.

[Steersman]

I think Kurds are fucking troublemakers.

Particularly when they get into Huế ….

[ConcentratedH2O, OM]

You might want to ask the original poster, who was in a huff that a Jew (Jerry Coyne) dared to find a blatantly anti-semitic cartoon to be more than a wee bit problematic.

I think Jerry is an atheist, not a jew.