Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

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Kareem
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#19981

Post by Kareem »

jjbinx007 wrote:AtheismPlussers discuss which TV shows make them want to puke because of ableism/racism/patriarchy/anti-zombieism/etc.

http://atheismplus.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4633

It starts out with
The Walking Dead

First and second seasons were chock full of gender essentialism
and soon descends into the usual AtheismPlus insanity such as someone being threatened with a permaban because they like Family Guy.
Poor Steven Moffat.
They'll miss him when he's gone.

Tony Parsehole
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#19982

Post by Tony Parsehole »

d4m10n wrote:When I heard the WBC might have been invited by one of ours (possibly because they are a sort of traveling clown-car of free comedic relief at the expense of fundamentalism) it rang a faint bell in the back of my head: http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... ent-285798
Veeeeeerry interesting.....Good catch.

Dick Strawkins
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#19983

Post by Dick Strawkins »

Tony Parsehole wrote:
d4m10n wrote:When I heard the WBC might have been invited by one of ours (possibly because they are a sort of traveling clown-car of free comedic relief at the expense of fundamentalism) it rang a faint bell in the back of my head: http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... ent-285798
Veeeeeerry interesting.....Good catch.
For some reason Janine's comment reminds me of some other group:
janine
12 March 2012 at 9:47 pm
I have seem plenty of WBC style protesters at various gay and lesbian events. When I have to go by them, I smile and wave at them. Besides being no where as confrontational in RL as opposed to here, these people are looking for people to express hatred and disdain towards them. It validates their self image of being martyrs and facing down evil.
I refuse to play their little game.

cunt
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#19984

Post by cunt »

Big difference between inviting them to protest your own event and seeing if they might be interested in protesting somebody else's.

free thoughtpolice
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#19985

Post by free thoughtpolice »

Dick Strawkins wrote:
Tony Parsehole wrote:
d4m10n wrote:When I heard the WBC might have been invited by one of ours (possibly because they are a sort of traveling clown-car of free comedic relief at the expense of fundamentalism) it rang a faint bell in the back of my head: http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... ent-285798
Veeeeeerry interesting.....Good catch.
For some reason Janine's comment reminds me of some other group:
janine
12 March 2012 at 9:47 pm
I have seem plenty of WBC style protesters at various gay and lesbian events. When I have to go by them, I smile and wave at them. Besides being no where as confrontational in RL as opposed to here, these people are looking for people to express hatred and disdain towards them. It validates their self image of being martyrs and facing down evil.
I refuse to play their little game.
Most of the comments are fairly positive about WBC attending this event, apparently because a known slymepitter didn't make the invitation.

Trophy
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#19986

Post by Trophy »

cunt wrote:Big difference between inviting them to protest your own event and seeing if they might be interested in protesting somebody else's.
Yep. Pretty much the difference that counts. It's basically like saying "Hey, I don't like these guys. Please go and harrass them". Of course, the fact that they did not bother to worry about their safety with the first incident is quite telling.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#19987

Post by Tigzy »

cunt wrote:Big difference between inviting them to protest your own event and seeing if they might be interested in protesting somebody else's.
It wasn't just Jim Klawon's/National Atheist Party's rally, though. Here's a list of the official sponsors of the event:

American Atheists
American Humanist Association
Atheist Alliance of America
Atheist Nexus
The Brights
Camp Quest
Center for Inquiry



Foundation Beyond Belief
Freedom From Religion Foundation
Freethought Society
James Randi Educational Foundation
Military Association of Atheists & Freethinkers
National Atheist Party
Richard Dawkins Foundation



Secular Coalition for America
Secular Student Alliance
Society for Humanistic Judaism
Stiefel Freethought Foundation
United Coalition of Reason
Washington Area Secular Humanists
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reason_Rally#Sponsors

Still, I'm sure Klawon made sure that representatives of all these organisations co-signed the letter, right?

http://wp.patheos.com.s3.amazonaws.com/ ... 25x550.jpg

Oops!

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#19988

Post by Tigzy »

And frankly, I would be surprised if the CFI (fellow Reason Rally sponsor) thought at the time that Klawon's invite to the WBC would have been welcome, considering Melody's response to the Prune's tweet as regards Karla's little 'indiscretion': https://twitter.com/MelodyHensley/statu ... 8188621824
Ophelia Benson ‏@OpheliaBenson 20h

A new way to stir up trouble http://dlvr.it/3L1F4q
Melody Hensley Melody Hensley ‏@MelodyHensley

@OpheliaBenson This unbelievable. How low can they go? This is a good example.
Well, about as low as Jim Klawon I guess, Mel.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#19989

Post by cunt »

Are you trying to say you can't spot the difference in motivation between this Jim Klawon and Karla Porter?

I think you're just playing dumb actually.

free thoughtpolice
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#19990

Post by free thoughtpolice »

hjhornbeck says
May 6, 2013 at 4:51 pm (UTC -7)
"It’s not harassment if someone else does it!"

Too true when Klawon did it wasn't harassment, in fact it apparently wasn't even a bad idea.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#19991

Post by d4m10n »

From a strictly consequentialist perspective, I'm sort of at a loss to see the downside of having WBC protest an event, from the perspective of the event organisers. The most hated hate group in all the U.S. comes out to get their hate on, and that's supposed to make you look bad somehow?

I suppose there is always the risk that someone attacks them with boxcutters or porcupines or something like that, but as long as you can avoid that, the publicity bounce cannot hurt.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#19992

Post by Tigzy »

cunt wrote:Are you trying to say you can't spot the difference in motivation between this Jim Klawon and Karla Porter?

I think you're just playing dumb actually.
What, that Karla was trolling, and Jim was just doing it for shits and giggles?

Not that I give much of shit about their motivations, TBH. I just find it more interesting that amongst the baboons, the WBC turning up at the Reason Rally was seen as being a bit naughty-naughty, but with Karla involved, it's oh noes! Hate group! How low can they go! I won't even be able to express myself as a trans person now!

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#19993

Post by free thoughtpolice »

:roll: I wanted to attend WiSC until I had a flashback of Tethys coming at me with a broken bottle and I had to curl up in a ball sobbing, comforted only by my pet cockroaches.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#19994

Post by justinvacula »

cunt wrote:Big difference between inviting them to protest your own event and seeing if they might be interested in protesting somebody else's.
Stop buying the fucking FTB narrative. There was no invitation to protest. The word protest was not even used. KArla asked Shirley if she would be >>>>>ATTENDING<<<<< the event. Attending the event, of course, means that Shirley would register and attend the conference - not protest it.

...and so fucking what if the event were protested? WBC has a first amendment right to protest an event - and if they did, they would be far outside the event...which is inside a hotel. There is no protesting in the hotel.

Much ado about nothing.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#19995

Post by justinvacula »

Trophy wrote:
cunt wrote:Big difference between inviting them to protest your own event and seeing if they might be interested in protesting somebody else's.
Yep. Pretty much the difference that counts. It's basically like saying "Hey, I don't like these guys. Please go and harrass them". Of course, the fact that they did not bother to worry about their safety with the first incident is quite telling.
No, it's not like saying "Please go and harass." Can you please point to where this is said and how Shirley's attendance necessarily means protesting?...and how the protesting would be inside the hotel, at the event?

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#19996

Post by KiwiInOz »

cunt wrote:
What Karla Porter did was stupid, not because it would have resulted in harrassment of the attendees (I guess Shirley Phelps gets tons of these types of requests for her family to picket this or that event so they will have to avoid all but the ones most likely to generate publicity - and that's not going to be Melody's event) but because it gives the FTB crowd another stupid thing to whine about.

"Woe is us, Karla's sicc-ed a hate group on us" they wail, conveniently forgetting that they themselves ever so bravely released the real life name of Thunderf00t after he was expelled - someone whose life was threatened by real hate groups, not the piddling clowns of the WBC.
It's stupid on every level for multiple reasons. Too numerous and obvious to actually list.

As for TF00t. The FTB'ers did childishly and pointedly over-use his name once they'd decided he was enemy number 1, but they didn't "release" it.
Gefan wrote: More amusing is thinking about how much time Nanny Benson likely spent dredging up the thing.
Probably zero, somebody else apparently alerted her to it.
The end must be nigh when cunt is the voice of reason.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#19997

Post by justinvacula »

It also should be noted that by FTB drawing attention to the tweet in question and talking about WBC, WBC has more motivation to attend the event since people are talking to them. FTB is not really concerned, but rather just want to throw Karla under the bus and really had nothing better to pick at. This tweet was months old and is now coming up why? I wonder...is this harassment according to Ophelia's standards? (See my signature)

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#19998

Post by Dick Strawkins »

justinvacula wrote:
cunt wrote:Big difference between inviting them to protest your own event and seeing if they might be interested in protesting somebody else's.
Stop buying the fucking FTB narrative. There was no invitation to protest. The word protest was not even used. KArla asked Shirley if she would be >>>>>ATTENDING<<<<< the event. Attending the event, of course, means that Shirley would register and attend the conference - not protest it.

...and so fucking what if the event were protested? WBC has a first amendment right to protest an event - and if they did, they would be far outside the event...which is inside a hotel. There is no protesting in the hotel.

Much ado about nothing.
What?

Karla was asking if Shirley Phelps was attending ? :liar:

She's a big attender of atheist/skeptical events, is she?

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#19999

Post by justinvacula »

I was quite surprised when I saw FTB writers resurrect Karla's early 2012 tweet concerning Shirley Phelps-Roper and the upcoming Women in Secularism 2 conference. As usual, commenters are hurling personal attacks at Karla following the respective blog posts.

Why the contempt for someone who draws attention of a disliked group -- such as the Westboro Baptist Church -- to a particular conference? ...and why reserve the hatred for Karla when PZ, months ago, suggested that writers from A Voice For Men (a site they consider a 'hate site') attend Women in Secularism 2?

You might remember this comment from PZ Myers following a comment from Ophelia Benson suggesting I am guilty of inspiring people to commit acts of terrorism:

"Well, heck. Maybe if they get enough money, they can send JohnTheOther and Roosh and Paul Elam and a few other MRAs to the event, too. It's kind of like having creationists show up at an evolution event. They'll just be regarded with pitying contempt." - PZ Myers

A Voice For Men, shortly following PZs comment, took notice of the suggestion that writers from A Voice For Men (JohnTheOther and Paul Elam) attend Women in Secularism 2. John created a video in which he asks his fans whether the conference is worth attending:

[youtube]OW9z0HkJ1LQ[/youtube]

Should PZ Myers, then, draw ire from fellow Freethought Blogs writers and commenters -- like Karla did for tweeting to Shirley Phelps-Roper? In Karla's case, Shirley Phelps-Roper has announced no intentions to attend Women in Secularism 2; the tweet in question -- now 'revived' on Freethought Blogs -- disappeared into the ether of the internet.

What if writers from A Voice For Men attended the conference? What if they didn't? If writers from A Voice For Men attend Women in Secularism 2, should PZ Myers be to blame? If writers from A Voice For Men do not attend the conference, should PZ Myers still be to blame? After all, he and Benson had set a standard - that merely suggesting someone from a disliked group attend the conference or that drawing the attention of someone from a disliked group is immoral and worthy of contempt?

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20000

Post by justinvacula »

Dick Strawkins wrote:
justinvacula wrote:
cunt wrote:Big difference between inviting them to protest your own event and seeing if they might be interested in protesting somebody else's.
Stop buying the fucking FTB narrative. There was no invitation to protest. The word protest was not even used. KArla asked Shirley if she would be >>>>>ATTENDING<<<<< the event. Attending the event, of course, means that Shirley would register and attend the conference - not protest it.

...and so fucking what if the event were protested? WBC has a first amendment right to protest an event - and if they did, they would be far outside the event...which is inside a hotel. There is no protesting in the hotel.

Much ado about nothing.
What?

Karla was asking if Shirley Phelps was attending ? :liar:

She's a big attender of atheist/skeptical events, is she?
Your point?

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20001

Post by ThreeFlangedJavis »

Git wrote:I'm going to go against the flow and stick up or Karla re. the WBC thing.

Let's face facts here: the WBC are the closest thing to a "Comedy Hate Group" in North America. They're the equivalent of Mary Whitehouse. They're a good fit to Peezus and A+Theism. Being able to wind them all up at the same time is a good thing (tm). So nice one Karla.
Couldn't agree more. My first reaction was a bit of a cringe, then I got real. It's a cheap laugh with bugger-all consequences other than possibly wasting some of WBC's time and dramatic vapour attacks by the snowflakes. My interest in the politics and PR around the 'schism' is diminishing by the day. I think a lot of us have been sucked into some alternative universe with no connection to the real one. Who gives a shit if some precious self-regarding nutbars are exposed to a few placards when entering a building.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20002

Post by cunt »

Oh, i'm sorry Justin but in this case it looks like they're right. Karla did not just ask if Phelps was >>attending<<. She asked whether Shirley Phelps would "grace it with her [Phelps] presence?".

I'm not buying this disingenuous bullshit. You don't ask Shirley Phelps, famous protesting nutcase, that because you think she might actually be interested in going as an attendee.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20003

Post by justinvacula »

http://i.imgur.com/jHvaWgv.jpg

What is Melody talking about?

Washington D.C. is not even on the WBC schedule from May 17-22...

http://www.godhatesfags.com/schedule.html

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20004

Post by cunt »

Almost like... they're all booked. She's not worried about them actually "attending"....

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20005

Post by justinvacula »

Ophelia continues the false threat narrative with an 'update'
http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterflies ... p-trouble/

http://i.imgur.com/TrMNgt5.jpg

Here's the deal. I have a very good relationship with the Westboro Baptist Church. I have Steve Drain's personal phone number. He returns my messages. He even contacts me with story ideas. I have published many articles concerning Westboro when I had written for Examiner.com (https://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-ab& ... 66&bih=643).

This is no threat, but a simple demonstration of the lack of my willingness to have WBC protest the event. If I wanted to really troll the event, again, I can have that arranged by having WBC attend...but I have not and will not. ...and that goes for any event whether it be the local gay pride festival I attend annually, military events, local funerals, etc. I haven't called upon WBC to be my personal army and really have no interest. I have the capacity and don't use it.

Again, I await the ire PZ Myers will face for alerting AVFM to #WIScfi and suggesting AVFM writers attend the conference, but we know that won't happen. AVFM even responded and made a video following PZ's comment - (

It's only OK when FTB does it, though.

Karla's tweet has been 'dead' and now resurrected by FTB.
I wonder...if WBC protests or attends, is it Karla's fault? Or maybe PZ and Ophelia's fault for resurrecting a tweet, mentioning WBC, etc? Anyway, as Karla says, WISCFI is a public event. WBC does as they will and does not need the hand of Karla (or Justin) to draw them to an event they probably already knew about anyway.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20006

Post by Bourne Skeptic »

justinvacula wrote:Ophelia continues the false threat narrative with an 'update'
http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterflies ... p-trouble/

http://i.imgur.com/TrMNgt5.jpg

Here's the deal. I have a very good relationship with the Westboro Baptist Church. I have Steve Drain's personal phone number. He returns my messages. He even contacts me with story ideas. I have published many articles concerning Westboro when I had written for Examiner.com (https://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-ab& ... 66&bih=643).

This is no threat, but a simple demonstration of the lack of my willingness to have WBC protest the event. If I wanted to really troll the event, again, I can have that arranged by having WBC attend...but I have not and will not. ...and that goes for any event whether it be the local gay pride festival I attend annually, military events, local funerals, etc. I haven't called upon WBC to be my personal army and really have no interest. I have the capacity and don't use it.

Again, I await the ire PZ Myers will face for alerting AVFM to #WIScfi and suggesting AVFM writers attend the conference, but we know that won't happen. AVFM even responded and made a video following PZ's comment - (

It's only OK when FTB does it, though.

Karla's tweet has been 'dead' and now resurrected by FTB.
I wonder...if WBC protests or attends, is it Karla's fault? Or maybe PZ and Ophelia's fault for resurrecting a tweet, mentioning WBC, etc? Anyway, as Karla says, WISCFI is a public event. WBC does as they will and does not need the hand of Karla (or Justin) to draw them to an event they probably already knew about anyway.
The more time I spend listening to both sides of the atheist schism the more they sound alike.

This sounds like more manufactured conflict!

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20007

Post by Phil_Giordana_FCD »

Getting a bit too much for me, what with WBC, WIS2, Karla, Justin, and all. I'll just bail out of the discussion and resume my peanut gallery posts.

My opinion: no fucking point in engaging WBC. Even for lulz. Bad Karla, bad! And Justin: don't try and rationalize that stuff. Bad Justin, bad!

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20008

Post by cunt »

Let's give Justin the biggest medal. He could get the WBC to protest local funerals, but he doesn't, on account of his super-human levels of restraint.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20009

Post by free thoughtpolice »

Bourne Skeptic wrote:
justinvacula wrote:Ophelia continues the false threat narrative with an 'update'
http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterflies ... p-trouble/

http://i.imgur.com/TrMNgt5.jpg

Here's the deal. I have a very good relationship with the Westboro Baptist Church. I have Steve Drain's personal phone number. He returns my messages. He even contacts me with story ideas. I have published many articles concerning Westboro when I had written for Examiner.com (https://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-ab& ... 66&bih=643).

This is no threat, but a simple demonstration of the lack of my willingness to have WBC protest the event. If I wanted to really troll the event, again, I can have that arranged by having WBC attend...but I have not and will not. ...and that goes for any event whether it be the local gay pride festival I attend annually, military events, local funerals, etc. I haven't called upon WBC to be my personal army and really have no interest. I have the capacity and don't use it.

Again, I await the ire PZ Myers will face for alerting AVFM to #WIScfi and suggesting AVFM writers attend the conference, but we know that won't happen. AVFM even responded and made a video following PZ's comment - (

It's only OK when FTB does it, though.

Karla's tweet has been 'dead' and now resurrected by FTB.
I wonder...if WBC protests or attends, is it Karla's fault? Or maybe PZ and Ophelia's fault for resurrecting a tweet, mentioning WBC, etc? Anyway, as Karla says, WISCFI is a public event. WBC does as they will and does not need the hand of Karla (or Justin) to draw them to an event they probably already knew about anyway.
The more time I spend listening to both sides of the atheist schism the more they sound alike.

This sounds like more manufactured conflict!
I'm sure I'm not the first to suspect that this FTB/Slymepit/A+ phenom is three trolls (PZ, franc hoggle, and twisty farter) that have created armies of sockpuppets to battle each other, creating drama and internet hits.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20010

Post by Dick Strawkins »

It's weird. For some reason Justin, Karla, Ophelia and Shirley Phelps all evoke the same feeling in me.
I just can't put my finger on what it is they bring to mind...

http://i.imgur.com/vy7qCtu.png

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20011

Post by Trophy »

justinvacula wrote:
cunt wrote:Big difference between inviting them to protest your own event and seeing if they might be interested in protesting somebody else's.
Stop buying the fucking FTB narrative. There was no invitation to protest. The word protest was not even used. KArla asked Shirley if she would be >>>>>ATTENDING<<<<< the event. Attending the event, of course, means that Shirley would register and attend the conference - not protest it.

...and so fucking what if the event were protested? WBC has a first amendment right to protest an event - and if they did, they would be far outside the event...which is inside a hotel. There is no protesting in the hotel.

Much ado about nothing.
Did you decide to take off the "self-promotion" hat and wear the "dunce" one? Since when WBC "attends" atheist or skeptism conferences? If they show up for anything, they are there to protest, harrass and show their stupid signs.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20012

Post by d4m10n »

If I die in a fire anytime soon, could one of you guys arrange for WBC to picket my funeral? I'll be buried only about four hours from Topeka so it's basically a day trip. Thanks!

But seriously though, what's with the fear-mongering here? I've attended three or four WBC events, as a counter-protestor, as a photographer, as a bystander. They just stand there, usually blocks away from the event under protest, looking and sounding like a clutch of hateful inbred kooks waving their multicoloured signage. People make fun of them for a bit, and then they go home. They are, as a group, less fearsome and more lawful than Francisco Bacopa and his Occupy Houston cronies.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20013

Post by TheMudbrooker »

justinvacula wrote:
Stop buying the fucking FTB narrative. There was no invitation to protest. The word protest was not even used. KArla asked Shirley if she would be >>>>>ATTENDING<<<<< the event. Attending the event, of course, means that Shirley would register and attend the conference - not protest it.
Justin, you seem like a bright enough kid, but if your best argument is to play cutesy little semantic games, it's best to quit now, you've lost.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20014

Post by Trophy »

Dick Strawkins wrote:It's weird. For some reason Justin, Karla, Ophelia and Shirley Phelps all evoke the same feeling in me.
I just can't put my finger on what it is they bring to mind...

http://i.imgur.com/vy7qCtu.png
It's a bit unfair to put the attention-whoring capabilties of Justin, Karla, Ophelia, and Shirley Phelps at the same level. One of them has taken the art of attention-whoring to a totally different level. Can't tell which one though, cuz it's a secret.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20015

Post by AbsurdWalls »

cunt wrote:Let's give Justin the biggest medal. He could get the WBC to protest local funerals, but he doesn't, on account of his super-human levels of restraint.
Quite.

What a load of wank.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20016

Post by cunt »

d4m10n wrote: But seriously though, what's with the fear-mongering here? I've attended three or four WBC events, as a counter-protestor, as a photographer, as a bystander. They just stand there, usually blocks away from the event under protest, looking and sounding like a clutch of hateful inbred kooks waving their multicoloured signage. People make fun of them for a bit, and then they go home. They are, as a group, less fearsome and more lawful than Francisco Bacopa and his Occupy Houston cronies.
Have you been reading a different thread or something? Point out the part where anyone said the WBC were ever a legitimate threat to anything.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20017

Post by d4m10n »

Ok, cunt, let's say they aren't a threat to anyone and will do nothing but stand well outside of the con looking like fools for all to see. Given this total lack of (foreseeable) negative consequences, what exactly did Porter do wrong?

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20018

Post by cunt »

Attempted to disrupt a meeting that she doesn't like by setting a bunch of fundamentalist shit-heads against it.

By no means do I think this is the worst thing to ever have happened in the world. Or that Karla is the absolute worst person for doing it. She's not. What it was though, is extremely petty and spiteful. Disingenuous bullshit isn't going to change that. Red Herrings about actual threat level, are not going to change that.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20019

Post by Guest »

free thoughtpolice wrote:I'm sure I'm not the first to suspect that this FTB/Slymepit/A+ phenom is three trolls (PZ, franc hoggle, and twisty farter) that have created armies of sockpuppets to battle each other, creating drama and internet hits.
everyone knows justinvacula is a sockpuppet of ophelia benson. what else can explain all the linkwhoring?

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20020

Post by peterb »

d4m10n wrote:Ok, cunt, let's say they aren't a threat to anyone and will do nothing but stand well outside of the con looking like fools for all to see. Given this total lack of (foreseeable) negative consequences, what exactly did Porter do wrong?
Here's a question for you: was Karla's tweet intended to raise or lower the odds that WiS would succeed, with success being defined by the organizers? What does it look like her intent was? If you think her intent was entirely neutral on is issue (unlikely, but possible), what exactly should a reasonable person not knowing Karla personally think the likelihood was as to her intent?

Ok, that was more than one question, but you get the point.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20021

Post by Guest »

the people pretending its nothing are wrong

the people pretending its something SERIOUS are wronger. but they had best be calling out jim klawson, pz, anyone at the reason rally who approved of the decision, and anyone who made light of their appearance due to threatening of safe spaces and triggering and ZOMG

while still--of course--being massively wrong wrongheads

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20022

Post by d4m10n »

cunt wrote:Attempted to disrupt a meeting that she doesn't like by setting a bunch of fundamentalist shit-heads against it.
I will happily grant this argument, if you can find even one news clipping of WBC disrupting a meeting.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20023

Post by cunt »

I think you should answer peterb's question first.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20024

Post by Percentage »

Has anyone else heard of this #killallmen hashtag that's trending at the moment? It doesn't offend me, because it's Twitter SJWs, and consider the source. But I have found it very telling as to how these guys think. For example, check this out, it's been getting link love on the hashtag.

http://stavvers.wordpress.com/2013/05/07/kill-all-men/

Here's a money quote, talking about some unidentified individuals she hates:
Patriarchy would destroy me were I to ever touch a hair on their head.
Since "patriarchy" is the Sith in SJW-speak, this would seem to imply that she feel as though she should be able to "touch a hair on their head", and is wrongly held back from justly murdering a few people by "the patriarchy", whatever that means.

It's emblematic of the amazing entitlement and immaturity that's endemic in that community, and it's why I don't want them anywhere near the atheist movement. Not because they want to #killallmen, but because they are ineffective, immature dumbfucks.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20025

Post by Aneris »

Semantics and technicalities aside, it certainly looks kinda bad. People associate WBC with disruptive hate speech, regardless of what they might actually do. Inviting them anywhere will never appear like a particularly good idea. Unless you're an investigative journalist trying to bust them, I do not see where one can hope to win anything by associating with them. Point for Benson this time.

Meanwhile Aunt Ophelia is harassed big time by Sara Mayhew. With a tweet.
Big Time! I hope Ophelia has made screenshots and called the FBI. She writes in More documenting the harassment that the Terrorists even use alias names when they do "false flag" operations.
Aunt Ophelia wrote:No, it isn’t. Eneraldo has an apparent name, not a mere handle. Sure, it could be an alias, but “clownshoe” and “ElevatorGATE” and “AmbrosiaX” are self-evidently aliases. The three shit-talkers make it unmistakable at a glance that they are not accountable for their harassment because they do it under a false flag, like those corporations that don’t want to pay for double hulls so they sail under the Liberian flag, instead.
I wanted to ask Hyperdeath, Stacy, great1american1satan, oolon, Sheila, Feline
Wowbagger, numenastr and Aratina Cage I had difficulties finding a job and the like--I mean with a real name like "great1american1satan" you probably run into some issues.

"I'm great1american1satan, I wanted to pick up my kid. Yeah, his name is LaVey4Luziferus."

"We're sorry to inform you Aratina Cage, but we think you aren't quite suitable to work in our call-center"

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20026

Post by Aneris »

that should have meant... "if they had difficulties.."

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20027

Post by BarnOwl »

cunt wrote:Attempted to disrupt a meeting that she doesn't like by setting a bunch of fundamentalist shit-heads against it.

By no means do I think this is the worst thing to ever have happened in the world. Or that Karla is the absolute worst person for doing it. She's not. What it was though, is extremely petty and spiteful. Disingenuous bullshit isn't going to change that. Red Herrings about actual threat level, are not going to change that.
I'm with cunt on this.

Of course in one sense, I'm always "with cunt."

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20028

Post by Steersman »

d4m10n wrote:
cunt wrote:Attempted to disrupt a meeting that she doesn't like by setting a bunch of fundamentalist shit-heads against it.
I will happily grant this argument, if you can find even one news clipping of WBC disrupting a meeting.
That "WBC disrupting a meeting" seems to be a bit of a red herring which would seem to be rather secondary to what the intent was. And it appears that the intent of Karla’s tweet was largely to rile the Women in Secularism people, to hassle them a little, to poke a stick into their little ant’s nest. Doesn’t seem all that commendable.

Maybe there’s some justification for criticizing the philosophy and principles behind that group, but the tweet can hardly be claimed to be doing that, and looked only like rather much of a cheap shot ….

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Re: Sally Strange and Crocheting

#20029

Post by Steersman »

FWIW, and at some risk of being labeled an “attention whore” and apart from the somewhat odious stereotyping of the group of individuals described by that noun, the following may be of some interest here. It’s a comment I made on Sally’s blog which she, for some strange reason, seems reluctant to let out of moderation:
Steersman wrote:Since both Stephanie Zvan and Jadehawk would apparently prefer to stand on ceremony rather than have some spirited and useful discussions on their blogs, I never did get a chance to respond to your last comments to or about me there (1), the latter in particular, to wit:
You’re maybe saying “[hyperbolic equations], it’s more of a gal thing”?
There are many ways to possibly misinterpret what I said, but that is definitely among the stupidest.
Apart from the fact that my statement was phrased as a question – and largely a rhetorical one at that – and not as an assertion of truth, I should mention at the outset that I think there is some justification for the first part of your previous statement to which I was responding:
Did anybody see that TED talk about hyperbolic maths, crochet, and coral reefs? Turns out mathematicians spent 100 years thinking that there was no way to model hyperbolic equations in the real world because none of them did crochet. Why did none of them do crochet? Because maths are for men and crochet is for women!
And while I haven’t actually watched the TED video yet, I have found the blog of the woman who started that ball rolling – Daina Taimina – and have borrowed the book from the library – Crocheting Adventures with Hyperbolic Planes – that she wrote on the topic. As I find the mathematics rather intriguing I’ll thank you for that.

However, it seems you are very much mistaken about the “no way to model hyperbolic equations” as it seems mathematicians have been doing so for almost 400 years. For instance, if you take a look at the Wikipedia article on the “pseudosphere” (2) – which is a physically realizable manifestation of the“hyperbolic plane”, one with constant negative curvature – you’ll see this:
Just as the sphere has at every point a positively curved geometry of a dome the whole pseudosphere has at every point the negatively curved geometry of a saddle.

As early as 1639 Christiaan Huygens found that the volume and the surface area of the pseudosphere are finite, despite the infinite extent of the shape along the axis of rotation.
I discussed that in some further detail in the Pit (3) – should you wish to brave those environs. But in any case, rather much of a stretch to get to “no way to model hyperbolic equations”, much less to laying any difficulties the mathematicians did have to a lack of familiarity with crocheting. Although that is not to say that that skill can’t have any relevance or value to that science or related ones.

However, what I found particularly objectionable and highly problematic was your barefaced assertion that:
That’s one example of how the exclusion of women slowed down mathematical discovery.

For one thing, one might ask, even if there were as many female mathematicians as there are male ones, what makes you think that those females were necessarily going to be familiar with crocheting? Do all women learn that skill at their mothers’ knees? Is that supposedly an intrinsic female intuition? (Why I asked that rhetorical question. And why the evidence makes it such an untenable position.)

Further, while I will readily agree if not deplore the fact that, in part at least, biology has traditionally tended to exclude women from many pursuits or avenues, to even suggest that argument – that because crocheting has been a traditional female industry or pastime and because that skill has some relevance to mathematics therefore there should be more females in mathematics – is looking rather problematic if not actually sexist. Galileo apparently developed much of his physics because his finely tuned sense of pitch enabled him to make measurements of time that no else before him had thought or been able to do. To argue your case seems rather analgous to arguing that because of Galileo’s experiences there should be more musicians in physics. Neither argument seems particularly tenable for any number of reasons.

---
1) “_http://jadehawks.wordpress.com/2013/04/13/a-collection-of-reading-comprehension-fails/#comment-3315”;
2) “_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudosphere”;
3) “_http://slymepit.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=85877&sid=ffeb8ad672a6ccdf1be86813d40a1ab6#p85877”;

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20030

Post by BarnOwl »

The three shit-talkers make it unmistakable at a glance that they are not accountable for their harassment because they do it under a false flag, like those corporations that don’t want to pay for double hulls so they sail under the Liberian flag, instead.
So people who disagree with Ophelia on Twitter are like the Exxon Valdez? Which, btw, was never registered with Liberia. The flag state for the Exxon Valdez when it ran aground on Bligh Reef was ::drumroll:: the U S of A.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20031

Post by d4m10n »

Aneris wrote:People associate WBC with disruptive hate speech, regardless of what they might actually do. Inviting them anywhere will never appear like a particularly good idea. Unless you're an investigative journalist trying to bust them, I do not see where one can hope to win anything by associating with them.
One should never *associate* with them, of course, but it's a fair bet that whomever they are protesting is bound to look more sympathetic to those who find their speech distasteful.

Had they actually shown up at a CFI conference for secular women, shouting regressive and hateful bullshit about lesbians and womanly submission to husbands (true patriarchy from true believers) would that make CFI look better or worse? Would it make literalist Christianity look better or worse? For whom would it generate positive press in the local papers?

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20032

Post by Bourne Skeptic »

http://atheismplus.com/forums/viewtopic ... =25#p81252
"I'm actually really surprised that Hannibal doesn't trigger the fuck out of me, I really really am. It should."


Maybe someone can explain this to me, if being triggered is such a horrific experience, why would someone(ceepolk) intentionally watch a TV show that she thinks should "trigger the fuck out of me"

The only explanation I can come up with, is that she wouldn't voluntarily put herself in that situation unless she knew that "being triggered" isn't the traumatic experience that she and the rest of the A+ crowd make it out to be.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20033

Post by d4m10n »

peterb wrote:Here's a question for you: was Karla's tweet intended to raise or lower the odds that WiS would succeed, with success being defined by the organizers?


I'm not going to try to read Karla's mind, she's a registered Pitter, she can explain her own intent. I've already asked her to do so privately.
peterb wrote:What does it look like her intent was?
Her intent might have been to lure WBC into giving secularists a free and positive publicity boost. It's a fair bet that this was exactly what Klawson was trying to do for the Reason Rally, eh?

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20034

Post by Steersman »

d4m10n wrote:
Aneris wrote:People associate WBC with disruptive hate speech, regardless of what they might actually do. Inviting them anywhere will never appear like a particularly good idea. Unless you're an investigative journalist trying to bust them, I do not see where one can hope to win anything by associating with them.
....
Had they actually shown up at a CFI conference for secular women, shouting regressive and hateful bullshit about lesbians and womanly submission to husbands (true patriarchy from true believers) would that make CFI look better or worse?
You’re not really trying to argue that Karla made those tweets to make the CFI - and WiS - look better?

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20035

Post by d4m10n »

Steersman wrote:
d4m10n wrote:
Aneris wrote:People associate WBC with disruptive hate speech, regardless of what they might actually do. Inviting them anywhere will never appear like a particularly good idea. Unless you're an investigative journalist trying to bust them, I do not see where one can hope to win anything by associating with them.
....
Had they actually shown up at a CFI conference for secular women, shouting regressive and hateful bullshit about lesbians and womanly submission to husbands (true patriarchy from true believers) would that make CFI look better or worse?
You’re not really trying to argue that Karla made those tweets to make the CFI - and WiS - look better?
I'm not trying to read Karla's intent, she can answer for herself. That said, have WBC protests ever made anyone (other than fundamentalist Christianity) look worse?

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20036

Post by peterb »

d4m10n wrote:
peterb wrote:Here's a question for you: was Karla's tweet intended to raise or lower the odds that WiS would succeed, with success being defined by the organizers?


I'm not going to try to read Karla's mind, she's a registered Pitter, she can explain her own intent. I've already asked her to do so privately.
peterb wrote:What does it look like her intent was?
Her intent might have been to lure WBC into giving secularists a free and positive publicity boost. It's a fair bet that this was exactly what Klawson was trying to do for the Reason Rally, eh?
"Might have been". This is a true statement but disingenuous without addressing the issue of your estimate on how likely. At some point, the likelihood is low enough that it is silly (at best) to bring it up. Do you really want to take the position that is was more likely than not Karla's intent to benefit WiS? It's absolutely irrelevant to my question what Klawson did or didn't do.
With respect to reading Karla's mind, I specifically asked you what you thought a reasonable person would guess to be the likely intent behind the tweet. No mind reading necessary.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20037

Post by Steersman »

BarnOwl wrote:
The three shit-talkers make it unmistakable at a glance that they are not accountable for their harassment because they do it under a false flag, like those corporations that don’t want to pay for double hulls so they sail under the Liberian flag, instead.
So people who disagree with Ophelia on Twitter are like the Exxon Valdez? Which, btw, was never registered with Liberia. The flag state for the Exxon Valdez when it ran aground on Bligh Reef was ::drumroll:: the U S of A.
That girl does have problems with analogies in one way or another, for example, her comparison of TAM and Nazi Germany – although I think that that one of hers was not totally without merit.

However, in the same way that one asserts the paradigmatic analogy “hand is to palm as foot is to sole”, she is claiming that pseudonymous posters are to “harassment” as false-flagged ships are to ecological irresponsibility? While one might argue that the posters and ships are analogous, I would say it fails badly in asserting that harassment and ecological irresponsibility are likewise analogous in any way, shape or form.

Although I suppose one might argue that harassment and the oil carried by the ships might be so - "harassment", like oil, providing light and heat and lubrication in various on-line and off-line discussions, but that might be somewhat of a stretch ….

In any case, Crommunist had a quite reasonable and interesting perspective on the technique not long ago:
Analogy is an excellent method of exposing inconsistencies in logic, which is an important component of refuting bad arguments.
However, bad analogies – as Ophelia’s latest seems to qualify as – tend to be worse than useless ….

Guest

Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20038

Post by Guest »

Steersman wrote:
d4m10n wrote:
Aneris wrote:People associate WBC with disruptive hate speech, regardless of what they might actually do. Inviting them anywhere will never appear like a particularly good idea. Unless you're an investigative journalist trying to bust them, I do not see where one can hope to win anything by associating with them.
....
Had they actually shown up at a CFI conference for secular women, shouting regressive and hateful bullshit about lesbians and womanly submission to husbands (true patriarchy from true believers) would that make CFI look better or worse?
You’re not really trying to argue that Karla made those tweets to make the CFI - and WiS - look better?
anyone and everyone looks better standing next to wbc

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20039

Post by d4m10n »

peterb wrote:
d4m10n wrote:
peterb wrote:Here's a question for you: was Karla's tweet intended to raise or lower the odds that WiS would succeed, with success being defined by the organizers?


I'm not going to try to read Karla's mind, she's a registered Pitter, she can explain her own intent. I've already asked her to do so privately.
peterb wrote:What does it look like her intent was?
Her intent might have been to lure WBC into giving secularists a free and positive publicity boost. It's a fair bet that this was exactly what Klawson was trying to do for the Reason Rally, eh?
"Might have been". This is a true statement but disingenuous without addressing the issue of your estimate on how likely. At some point, the likelihood is low enough that it is silly (at best) to bring it up. Do you really want to take the position that is was more likely than not Karla's intent to benefit WiS? It's absolutely irrelevant to my question what Klawson did or didn't do.
The background probability that a committed and media savvy secular activist might try to use WBC for their own publicity purposes is completely relevant to any sort of reasonable calculus of the "likelihood" of another similarly situated secular activist doing the same thing for yet another big secular event in D.C.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20040

Post by Steersman »

d4m10n wrote:
Steersman wrote:
d4m10n wrote:
Aneris wrote:People associate WBC with disruptive hate speech, regardless of what they might actually do. Inviting them anywhere will never appear like a particularly good idea. Unless you're an investigative journalist trying to bust them, I do not see where one can hope to win anything by associating with them.
....
Had they actually shown up at a CFI conference for secular women, shouting regressive and hateful bullshit about lesbians and womanly submission to husbands (true patriarchy from true believers) would that make CFI look better or worse?
You’re not really trying to argue that Karla made those tweets to make the CFI - and WiS - look better?
..... That said, have WBC protests ever made anyone (other than fundamentalist Christianity) look worse?
Good point. But you framed that particular question as “better or worse?” and it seems rather much of a stretch to argue that the intent was “better”. And if there was no motivation along that axis then what other ones spring to mind? Riling them up? Hassling them? Leading them to see the philosophical and pragmatic errors of their ways?

Locked