Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

Old subthreads
JackSkeptic
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12901

Post by JackSkeptic »

rayshul wrote:
Jack wrote:
rayshul wrote:I'd be interested if EBW wrote about her experiences coming from a radically pro-FtB stance to where she is now.
I see no evidence she has changed her position on anything.
From that conversation with janphar, I don't think she's so pro-FtB any more.
Yes very true, I meant in her core beliefs, I was unclear on that.

JackSkeptic
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12902

Post by JackSkeptic »

welch wrote:
Wonderist wrote:
I'm foreseeing an EllenBeth Wachs moment for Carrier in the not so distant future.
That would require something carrier has neither possession of, nor use for:


A spine
They are conflating 'humanism' with certain forms of Social Justice. They are defining Social Justice as their form of dogma rather than equality which not if not all agree with. Carriers statement directly contradicts the stated aims of A+ as well.

Without knowing more about what he said than his tweet I have no issue with it. The issue I have is associating their beliefs and dogma with commonly understood and laudable aims.

These people assume I hate women and I am a racist because I do not subscribe to their dogma. I think they are deluded and their association with reality tenuous.

rayshul
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12903

Post by rayshul »

clownshoe wrote:
rayshul wrote:Atheism Plus. AHAHAHHA. It's not going to happen, guys.
Atheism Plus... Guys don't do that.
I always think more of Gretchen in Mean Girls trying to get "fetch" to happen. It's never going to happen.

Garlic

Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12904

Post by Garlic »

AndrewV69 wrote:
Apples wrote:
AndrewV69 wrote:I have yet to see any discussion on the subject not go rapidly downhill in no time at all. It seems to be a very emotional subject and I would be very pessimistic about the outcome. So much so I would actively discourage it.
Right. So race realism is out. It would probably be as unproductive as a debate about whether women's suffrage should be repealed, which is why I'll refrain from posting an excerpt from Vox's interesting piece today at Alpha Game Plan.
Oh I would not expect it to happen any time soon. Not in my lifetime anyway. I expect it will happen in around 80 years though if things continue to unfold they way they have been so far.
I can't see why you would expect anything like that. Is there any example of universal suffrage being durably repelled? Even fascist regimes upheld women's suffrage.

JackSkeptic
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12905

Post by JackSkeptic »

The issue we have is the atheist movement is infected by people who have no interest in skepticism or critical thinking. Yet they hijack those words without grasping what they mean and without grasping it applies to their beliefs too. If the atheist movement wishes to maintain any sort of credibility as well as the ability to criticise others, including theists, this attitude has to stop.

rayshul
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12906

Post by rayshul »

Reference:

[youtube]Sir_24duiF4[/youtube]

Submariner
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12907

Post by Submariner »

Jack wrote: They are conflating 'humanism' with certain forms of Social Justice. They are defining Social Justice as their form of dogma rather than equality which not if not all agree with. Carriers statement directly contradicts the stated aims of A+ as well.

Without knowing more about what he said than his tweet I have no issue with it. The issue I have is associating their beliefs and dogma with commonly understood and laudable aims.

These people assume I hate women and I am a racist because I do not subscribe to their dogma. I think they are deluded and their association with reality tenuous.
Good thing that on any subject other than the historicity of Jesus, everyone pretty much agrees that Mr. Carrier is an arrogant cunt.

ConcentratedH2O, OM
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12908

Post by ConcentratedH2O, OM »

Over on Meyers's blog, the frankly subhuman Nerd of Redhead says this, in response to another comment (which is embedded in the one below):
Other poster: So your saying that the guy didnt get fired for this incident? Did you read his apology on the subject? It sounds like he got fired for this incident.
NerdofRedhead: Gee ignorant fuckwitted idjit. If you educadted {sic} yourself by reading the 3500+ posts on two threads, you would know the smartmouth that got fired was on his way out already. The incident was the straw that broke the camel’s back.
Now, I didn't follow this story beyond the first couple of days, but the only time I have seen this idea of the guy already being half out of the door at his company is from TurdofRedhead.

Anyone know if he is correct here, or has he flat out made shit up? Thanks, 'Pit.

JAB
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12909

Post by JAB »

I hope all the mods at Atheism plus have their knives sharpened... Carrier's talk might send some fresh meat for them to slay. I think the new folks might be in for a surprise if they believed the talk.

SurpriseGuest

Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12910

Post by SurpriseGuest »

I'm really looking forward to the new dialogue. Is it starting tonight or are we still waiting until tomorrow?

JackSkeptic
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12911

Post by JackSkeptic »

ConcentratedH2O, OM wrote:Over on Meyers's blog, the frankly subhuman Nerd of Redhead says this, in response to another comment (which is embedded in the one below):
Other poster: So your saying that the guy didnt get fired for this incident? Did you read his apology on the subject? It sounds like he got fired for this incident.
NerdofRedhead: Gee ignorant fuckwitted idjit. If you educadted {sic} yourself by reading the 3500+ posts on two threads, you would know the smartmouth that got fired was on his way out already. The incident was the straw that broke the camel’s back.
Now, I didn't follow this story beyond the first couple of days, but the only time I have seen this idea of the guy already being half out of the door at his company is from TurdofRedhead.

Anyone know if he is correct here, or has he flat out made shit up? Thanks, 'Pit.
It's been a recent assertion which means I have no evidence for it. To be honest whatever those clowns say is only right by chance. I suspect the guy himself is keeping a very low profile before he makes himself unemployable. That means people like Nerd can make up anything they like and get away with it. He is one of the most obnoxious people I have ever come across on the internet by the way and I have been on it since it was invented. If he came here and 'switched sides' I doubt I would wish to hang around, that goes for most of the commentators on that blog. They are nasty, hurtful people.

Aneris
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12912

Post by Aneris »

ConcentratedH2O, OM wrote:Over on Meyers's blog, the frankly subhuman Nerd of Redhead says this, in response to another comment (which is embedded in the one below):
Other poster: So your saying that the guy didnt get fired for this incident? Did you read his apology on the subject? It sounds like he got fired for this incident.
NerdofRedhead: Gee ignorant fuckwitted idjit. If you educadted {sic} yourself by reading the 3500+ posts on two threads, you would know the smartmouth that got fired was on his way out already. The incident was the straw that broke the camel’s back.
Now, I didn't follow this story beyond the first couple of days, but the only time I have seen this idea of the guy already being half out of the door at his company is from TurdofRedhead.

Anyone know if he is correct here, or has he flat out made shit up? Thanks, 'Pit.
Subhuman? Please! Robots are people, too. BTT: I've read that one guy got fired, the other apologized. And that nothing is known why he got fired. There were claims that employees are valuable and thus wouldn't get fired over such an incident. However, you wouldn't send underachiever employees to conferences in the first place. Overchallenged HR seems more likely.

Guest

Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12913

Post by Guest »

Oh yeah... Someone should go ask if they fabricated that on the thread, or if its true. I havent heard of Adria saying that, not that she even works with him. And he sure made it out like he was fired FOR this incident. So what was their source, is the question? Tell them to note that Adria herself was not seen saying that nor the guy.

JackSkeptic
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12914

Post by JackSkeptic »

SurpriseGuest wrote:I'm really looking forward to the new dialogue. Is it starting tonight or are we still waiting until tomorrow?
There are timings and they have been discussed. It was never going to be today and the timings given were suggestions (initially late Saturday) It is likely to be Sunday now and there is a very specific time but I do not want to put external pressure on anyone as there are numerous reasons that may slip. It is important both sides are fully satisfied with their respective statement and that whatever time is needed is provided.

JackSkeptic
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12915

Post by JackSkeptic »

Guest wrote:Oh yeah... Someone should go ask if they fabricated that on the thread, or if its true. I havent heard of Adria saying that, not that she even works with him. And he sure made it out like he was fired FOR this incident. So what was their source, is the question? Tell them to note that Adria herself was not seen saying that nor the guy.
Good luck with asking. They don't like questions or statements that goes against their perfect little made up world. Ask EBW.

Submariner
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12916

Post by Submariner »

Guest wrote:Oh yeah... Someone should go ask if they fabricated that on the thread, or if its true. I havent heard of Adria saying that, not that she even works with him. And he sure made it out like he was fired FOR this incident. So what was their source, is the question? Tell them to note that Adria herself was not seen saying that nor the guy.

It likely came from this:

[urlhttp://venturebeat.com/2013/03/21/playhaven-on-fired-sex-joke-developer-it-wasnt-just-one-issue/#s2qIo26skpYxSIJc.99[/url]

The author doesn't give much data for his title's conclusion other than this:
That’s basically what the company representative who I talked to this morning said as well, adding that there are multiple considerations that factor into decisions like this.

BannedAidUnlogged

Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12917

Post by BannedAidUnlogged »

ConcentratedH2O, OM wrote:Over on Meyers's blog, the frankly subhuman Nerd of Redhead says this, in response to another comment (which is embedded in the one below):
Other poster: So your saying that the guy didnt get fired for this incident? Did you read his apology on the subject? It sounds like he got fired for this incident.
NerdofRedhead: Gee ignorant fuckwitted idjit. If you educadted {sic} yourself by reading the 3500+ posts on two threads, you would know the smartmouth that got fired was on his way out already. The incident was the straw that broke the camel’s back.
Now, I didn't follow this story beyond the first couple of days, but the only time I have seen this idea of the guy already being half out of the door at his company is from TurdofRedhead.

Anyone know if he is correct here, or has he flat out made shit up? Thanks, 'Pit.
The only thing substantive (read: not pulled from FTB's ass) I remember seeing was the statement from playhaven that Submariner posted a while back:
playhaven wrote: Mar 21, 2013 / 1:56am
Addressing PyCon
Andy Yang
Andy Yang
CEO
View other articles
0

It has come to our attention that a topic concerning a former PlayHaven employee has generated a passionate online debate.

There are a number of inaccuracies being reported and I would like to take this opportunity to provide some clarity.

PlayHaven had an employee who was identified as making inappropriate comments at PyCon, and as a company that is dedicated to gender equality and values honorable behavior, we conducted a thorough investigation. The result of this investigation led to the unfortunate outcome of having to let this employee go. We value and protect the privacy of our employees, both past and present, and we will not comment on all the factors that contributed to our parting ways.

This employee was not Alex Reid, who is still with the company and a valued employee.

We believe in the importance of discussing sensitive topics such as gender and conduct and we hope to move forward with a civil dialogue based on the facts.

In that spirit, I would personally like to hear your thoughts and concerns.

Email me at ceo@playhaven.com. I will do my best to respond and encourage an active and civil dialogue.
I suppose they could read into the their choice of "factors" and not "factor" as meaning there was some prior problem, but they would be pulling it out of their ass if they did.Not sure what part of "we value and protect the privacy of our employees, both past and present" they think means, "that guy was a troublemaker from the start."

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12918

Post by Submariner »


SurpriseGuest

Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12919

Post by SurpriseGuest »

The CEO could save a lot of inbox by being less ambiguous. Gender equality? Is he saying dongle jokes arw sexist?

JackSkeptic
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12920

Post by JackSkeptic »

SurpriseGuest wrote:The CEO could save a lot of inbox by being less ambiguous. Gender equality? Is he saying dongle jokes arw sexist?
PR has to be ambiguous. Because of people like Nerd who will read what they want to see.

Also join here you slacker.

sacha
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12921

Post by sacha »

ERV wrote:
welch wrote:
Angry_Drunk wrote:
welch wrote:I find it sad that they are more concerned with blaming us than caring about EBW
Gotta keep up that victim narrative...even if it means victimizing their own.

Yup. EBW is regularly a prickly pain in the ass, but from her supposed allies, she'd earned better
What? I was 'friends' with PZ for ages, and he had no problem throwing me under the bus when I mildly chastised Watson (why? have to ask his psychiatrist). They dont have friends. They have tools. You throw away a tool when it 'breaks'. EBW 'broke' so she got tossed, like everyone else who confused our relationship as their 'friends'.
exactly. There is no loyalty. It is the popular girl's clique in high school. Assimilate or be shunned. Heathers.

and yes, I think it is funny as fuck when one of the "popular chicks" makes one wrong move, and finds themselves eating their lunch at a big table, all alone with the others pointing and whispering.

The universe is indifferent, so I find pleasure in the rare times someone gets exactly what they deserve.

SurpriseGuest

Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12922

Post by SurpriseGuest »

Jack, that would be most... Hard. A tiny device is what Im using.

If the CEO thinks email would prevent people like Nerd complaining, he is wrong. I have sent him an email, if he'll listen...

Aneris
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12923

Post by Aneris »

SurpriseGuest wrote:The CEO could save a lot of inbox by being less ambiguous. Gender equality? Is he saying dongle jokes arw sexist?
Most likely they were not, but seem more like textbook double entendres. But we can't know without a transcript. Hence, benefit of doubt. The company will now anyway hint at whatever makes them come away best. It doesn't matter anyway.

JackSkeptic
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12924

Post by JackSkeptic »

SurpriseGuest wrote:Jack, that would be most... Hard. A tiny device is what Im using.

If the CEO thinks email would prevent people like Nerd complaining, he is wrong. I have sent him an email, if he'll listen...
I was joking. Joining here can ruin someone's life the same as coming out as atheist did to many.

I suspect the CEO is overwhelmed with email and it all goes to trash.

Michael K Gray
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12925

Post by Michael K Gray »

Garlic wrote:Is there any example of universal suffrage being durably repelled? Even fascist regimes upheld women's suffrage.
Saudi Arabia?

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12926

Post by Michael K Gray »

Jack wrote:The issue we have is the atheist movement is infected by people who have no interest in skepticism or critical thinking.
Objection, your honour!
"Infected" is a misleading and thoroughly poisonous term in this case.
I keep trying to impress on the learned counsel that a-theism has nothing necessarily to do with either skepticism or critical thinking!
It is simple the absence of a belief.
Whilst a-theism may be caused by skepticism, it is not in any way dependent upon it for the majority of atheists.
Any number of unskeptical, (or even anti-skeptical), and/or uncritical thinkers can and have embraced atheism with gusto, and will continue to do so.

Of course we have "people who have no interest in skepticism or critical thinking"! M'lud.
(I gave several examples in a prior submission to the court. Exhibit A-theism.)

I request that you advise Sir Jack to withdraw his unfounded and scurrilous remark, as it renders our well-water somewhat unpalatable, or I shall have a hissy-fit in the robing room, and go to the bar association afterward.
(Watson will be there as well, I am led to understand. Perhaps she has the legal term "Bar" confused with something else.)

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12927

Post by Michael K Gray »

Jack wrote:He is one of the most obnoxious people I have ever come across on the internet by the way and I have been on it since it was invented. If he came here and 'switched sides' I doubt I would wish to hang around, that goes for most of the commentators on that blog. They are nasty, hurtful people.
Have ever chanced across |-|erc from Queensland on USENET?

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12928

Post by Michael K Gray »

sacha wrote:
ERV wrote:
welch wrote:
Angry_Drunk wrote:
welch wrote:I find it sad that they are more concerned with blaming us than caring about EBW
Gotta keep up that victim narrative...even if it means victimizing their own.

Yup. EBW is regularly a prickly pain in the ass, but from her supposed allies, she'd earned better
What? I was 'friends' with PZ for ages, and he had no problem throwing me under the bus when I mildly chastised Watson (why? have to ask his psychiatrist). They dont have friends. They have tools. You throw away a tool when it 'breaks'. EBW 'broke' so she got tossed, like everyone else who confused our relationship as their 'friends'.
exactly. There is no loyalty. It is the popular girl's clique in high school. Assimilate or be shunned. Heathers.

and yes, I think it is funny as fuck when one of the "popular chicks" makes one wrong move, and finds themselves eating their lunch at a big table, all alone with the others pointing and whispering.

The universe is indifferent, so I find pleasure in the rare times someone gets exactly what they deserve.
What does Scented Nectar say to distil this approach?
"Scrutiny is Mutiny"!

ConcentratedH2O, OM
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12929

Post by ConcentratedH2O, OM »

Jack wrote:
ConcentratedH2O, OM wrote:Over on Meyers's blog, the frankly subhuman Nerd of Redhead says this, in response to another comment (which is embedded in the one below):
Other poster: So your saying that the guy didnt get fired for this incident? Did you read his apology on the subject? It sounds like he got fired for this incident.
NerdofRedhead: Gee ignorant fuckwitted idjit. If you educadted {sic} yourself by reading the 3500+ posts on two threads, you would know the smartmouth that got fired was on his way out already. The incident was the straw that broke the camel’s back.
Now, I didn't follow this story beyond the first couple of days, but the only time I have seen this idea of the guy already being half out of the door at his company is from TurdofRedhead.

Anyone know if he is correct here, or has he flat out made shit up? Thanks, 'Pit.
It's been a recent assertion which means I have no evidence for it. To be honest whatever those clowns say is only right by chance. I suspect the guy himself is keeping a very low profile before he makes himself unemployable. That means people like Nerd can make up anything they like and get away with it. He is one of the most obnoxious people I have ever come across on the internet by the way and I have been on it since it was invented. If he came here and 'switched sides' I doubt I would wish to hang around, that goes for most of the commentators on that blog. They are nasty, hurtful people.
Thanks.

Oddly enough, Nerd failed to provide a citation for this "fact". Which left me assuming it was actually his unevidenced OPINION which *FLOOSH* can be sent to the sewer as spoken by a proven bullshitter and idjit.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12930

Post by rayshul »

Jack wrote:
rayshul wrote:
Jack wrote:
rayshul wrote:I'd be interested if EBW wrote about her experiences coming from a radically pro-FtB stance to where she is now.
I see no evidence she has changed her position on anything.
From that conversation with janphar, I don't think she's so pro-FtB any more.
Yes very true, I meant in her core beliefs, I was unclear on that.
I think that alone is fascinating. It's a deconversion of sorts - when you believe absolutely that someone is right and advocating for a cause that aligns with yours... and then you discover that it gets turned on its head, and you wind up being a victim. I'm sure EBW has her own politics and won't shift on them... but I think she's become disillusioned, thanks to FtB, about how much support she can find from certain groups and how much common ground on some issues means to ideologues who are entrenched in a their way or the highway mentality.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is I think that would be interesting to read. I know I'm never going to agree with EBW on her views on women.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12931

Post by Michael K Gray »

rayshul wrote:
Jack wrote:
rayshul wrote:
Jack wrote:
rayshul wrote:I'd be interested if EBW wrote about her experiences coming from a radically pro-FtB stance to where she is now.
I see no evidence she has changed her position on anything.
From that conversation with janphar, I don't think she's so pro-FtB any more.
Yes very true, I meant in her core beliefs, I was unclear on that.
I think that alone is fascinating. It's a deconversion of sorts - when you believe absolutely that someone is right and advocating for a cause that aligns with yours... and then you discover that it gets turned on its head, and you wind up being a victim. I'm sure EBW has her own politics and won't shift on them... but I think she's become disillusioned, thanks to FtB, about how much support she can find from certain groups and how much common ground on some issues means to ideologues who are entrenched in a their way or the highway mentality.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is I think that would be interesting to read. I know I'm never going to agree with EBW on her views on women.
At least EBW is interesting in a relatively complex way.
Not half-dimensional like most of the fake SJ Worriers.
That she has had altercations with the law makes me sway more toward her side.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12932

Post by JackSkeptic »

rayshul wrote:
Jack wrote:
rayshul wrote:
Jack wrote:
rayshul wrote:I'd be interested if EBW wrote about her experiences coming from a radically pro-FtB stance to where she is now.
I see no evidence she has changed her position on anything.
From that conversation with janphar, I don't think she's so pro-FtB any more.
Yes very true, I meant in her core beliefs, I was unclear on that.
I think that alone is fascinating. It's a deconversion of sorts - when you believe absolutely that someone is right and advocating for a cause that aligns with yours... and then you discover that it gets turned on its head, and you wind up being a victim. I'm sure EBW has her own politics and won't shift on them... but I think she's become disillusioned, thanks to FtB, about how much support she can find from certain groups and how much common ground on some issues means to ideologues who are entrenched in a their way or the highway mentality.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is I think that would be interesting to read. I know I'm never going to agree with EBW on her views on women.
Yes and the fact she was so distressed tells me how deluded they can be and so vulnerable. Like a cultist. If I was slammed by people here I would not lose sleep over it. Actually, I have and I haven't lost sleep. I would reconsider what I said or thought. Or I might laugh. Or I might ignore it. It would never stop me responding to something else they said I might agree with. But then I never claim to be perfect and 100% right all the time. They think they are and that is a very emotionally dangerous position to be in.

The only way to resist this emotional vulnerability is to put oneself in a state of denial. That is why we see so much cognitive dissonance. But when they get a good hard shake they collapse and it is emotionally traumatic.

It's one reason I actually feel sorry for these people. I feel sorry for EBW. I also loath those who are manipulating such people to push their own personal agenda's. To me it is highly immoral.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12933

Post by JackSkeptic »

Michael K Gray wrote:
That she has had altercations with the law makes me sway more toward her side.
Her heavy breathing thing was hilarious, to me anyway. I'm not being nicey nicey to her as I know she has said some horrible things and I have no reason to suppose that will change. I welcome robust interactions which can cross the line into offence. I hate the attempts to stop that. We are not robots, we have beliefs, emotions and feelings too. But we accept that we sometimes need to be offended to grasp and exchange ideas freely. Without that we will die out and turn into lobotomised fools who never achieve anything.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12934

Post by JackSkeptic »

Michael K Gray wrote:
Jack wrote:The issue we have is the atheist movement is infected by people who have no interest in skepticism or critical thinking.
Objection, your honour!
"Infected" is a misleading and thoroughly poisonous term in this case.
I keep trying to impress on the learned counsel that a-theism has nothing necessarily to do with either skepticism or critical thinking!
It is simple the absence of a belief.
Whilst a-theism may be caused by skepticism, it is not in any way dependent upon it for the majority of atheists.
Any number of unskeptical, (or even anti-skeptical), and/or uncritical thinkers can and have embraced atheism with gusto, and will continue to do so.

Of course we have "people who have no interest in skepticism or critical thinking"! M'lud.
(I gave several examples in a prior submission to the court. Exhibit A-theism.)

I request that you advise Sir Jack to withdraw his unfounded and scurrilous remark, as it renders our well-water somewhat unpalatable, or I shall have a hissy-fit in the robing room, and go to the bar association afterward.
(Watson will be there as well, I am led to understand. Perhaps she has the legal term "Bar" confused with something else.)
You cut and paste that from FtB you lazy bugger.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12935

Post by Michael K Gray »

Jack wrote:
Michael K Gray wrote:
Jack wrote:The issue we have is the atheist movement is infected by people who have no interest in skepticism or critical thinking.
Objection, your honour!
"Infected" is a misleading and thoroughly poisonous term in this case.
I keep trying to impress on the learned counsel that a-theism has nothing necessarily to do with either skepticism or critical thinking!
It is simple the absence of a belief.
Whilst a-theism may be caused by skepticism, it is not in any way dependent upon it for the majority of atheists.
Any number of unskeptical, (or even anti-skeptical), and/or uncritical thinkers can and have embraced atheism with gusto, and will continue to do so.

Of course we have "people who have no interest in skepticism or critical thinking"! M'lud.
(I gave several examples in a prior submission to the court. Exhibit A-theism.)

I request that you advise Sir Jack to withdraw his unfounded and scurrilous remark, as it renders our well-water somewhat unpalatable, or I shall have a hissy-fit in the robing room, and go to the bar association afterward.
(Watson will be there as well, I am led to understand. Perhaps she has the legal term "Bar" confused with something else.)
You cut and paste that from FtB you lazy bugger.
Impossible! It contains criticism of Watson.
BTW, I am quite serious about the atheism/skepticism disconnect.
And the sunscreen.
If I have one bit of advice to the class of '95:- it is to "Wear Atheism".

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12936

Post by JackSkeptic »

Michael K Gray wrote:
Jack wrote:
Michael K Gray wrote:
Jack wrote:The issue we have is the atheist movement is infected by people who have no interest in skepticism or critical thinking.
Objection, your honour!
"Infected" is a misleading and thoroughly poisonous term in this case.
I keep trying to impress on the learned counsel that a-theism has nothing necessarily to do with either skepticism or critical thinking!
It is simple the absence of a belief.
Whilst a-theism may be caused by skepticism, it is not in any way dependent upon it for the majority of atheists.
Any number of unskeptical, (or even anti-skeptical), and/or uncritical thinkers can and have embraced atheism with gusto, and will continue to do so.

Of course we have "people who have no interest in skepticism or critical thinking"! M'lud.
(I gave several examples in a prior submission to the court. Exhibit A-theism.)

I request that you advise Sir Jack to withdraw his unfounded and scurrilous remark, as it renders our well-water somewhat unpalatable, or I shall have a hissy-fit in the robing room, and go to the bar association afterward.
(Watson will be there as well, I am led to understand. Perhaps she has the legal term "Bar" confused with something else.)
You cut and paste that from FtB you lazy bugger.
Impossible! It contains criticism of Watson.
BTW, I am quite serious about the atheism/skepticism disconnect.
And the sunscreen.
If I have one bit of advice to the class of '95:- it is to "Wear Atheism".
Oh I agree. I suspect the vast majority of atheists did not get to their lack of belief through skeptisism. For some reason they think atheism has something to do with their other beliefs, it does not.

On A+ recently a mod said 'We are about Social Justice from and atheist perspective'. I can't parse that, it is a meaningless statement.

That also does not mean they can't hijack the word 'atheist' and use it for their own social or political beliefs. If they want to be activists in those areas they should join groups who support that or be happy to be PART of the overall atheist movement rather than all of it.

Because of it's dictionary definition the word atheism in activism has been accepted to mean secularism and anti-theism. Even that is arguable. In any event no one has the right to assume a philosophy on it, especially one so deeply flawed and not in general agreement.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12937

Post by Michael K Gray »

Jack wrote:Because of it's dictionary definition the word atheism in activism has been accepted to mean secularism and anti-theism. Even that is arguable. In any event no one has the right to assume a philosophy on it, especially one so deeply flawed and not in general agreement.
I count myself as both an atheist, (in the trivial sense), and an anti-theist.
A rabid anti-theist.
But even theists can be anti-theist. Hindu versus Islam. Mormon versus Scientology, and cetera...
Many folk who identify as Christians are anti-main-stream-Christianity.
Too often folk conflate theism with Churches.
The Catholic Church is a money-making criminal organization which, like the Mafia, has no interest in theology save for a thin cover by which they excuse their extortion, robbery, rape & genocide.
They are a Church, but theism is incidental to the point of irrelevance.

Anti-theism is NOT a subset of Atheism.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12938

Post by JackSkeptic »

Michael K Gray wrote:
Jack wrote:Because of it's dictionary definition the word atheism in activism has been accepted to mean secularism and anti-theism. Even that is arguable. In any event no one has the right to assume a philosophy on it, especially one so deeply flawed and not in general agreement.
I count myself as both an atheist, (in the trivial sense), and an anti-theist.
A rabid anti-theist.
But even theists can be anti-theist. Hindu versus Islam. Mormon versus Scientology, and cetera...
Many folk who identify as Christians are anti-main-stream-Christianity.
Too often folk conflate theism with Churches.
The Catholic Church is a money-making criminal organization which, like the Mafia, has no interest in theology save for a thin cover by which they excuse their extortion, robbery, rape & genocide.
They are a Church, but theism is incidental to the point of irrelevance.

Anti-theism is NOT a subset of Atheism.
I said atheist movements. Not atheism. Atheism informs us of nothing except the existence of an entity. Atheists movements, to have a purpose at all, have assumed other roles. Tough luck if you don't like it.

ConcentratedH2O, OM
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12939

Post by ConcentratedH2O, OM »

Michael K Gray wrote:That she has had altercations with the law makes me sway more toward her side.
Really?

MKG, I didn't have you down as an eighteen-year-old reactionary, who thought it cool to flip the finger at police officers and smoke weed behind the burnt out cinema.

What the holy hell makes you sway towards her side about the fact she has had altercations with the law? Why is this by definition good? Do you have a Che Guevara poster on your bedroom wall?

Karmakin
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12940

Post by Karmakin »

Not for the same reasons, but I agree with the notion that it's proper to cut EBW a bit of slack. As I always say, in the SJW movement there's predators and there's prey. It's clear at this junction that EBW was the latter, and as such I think that's the way it should be approached.

There's also the notion that there's no actual leaders (predators) in this movement, that everybody is acted upon and the machine works in an automatic fashion. Reminds me of an anime actually. If you've ever seen Ghost in the Shell, they made a (better than the movie actually) series out of it called Stand Alone Complex.

The SJW movement may be exactly what they're describing with that.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12941

Post by Michael K Gray »

ConcentratedH2O, OM wrote:
Michael K Gray wrote:That she has had altercations with the law makes me sway more toward her side.
Really?

MKG, I didn't have you down as an eighteen-year-old reactionary, who thought it cool to flip the finger at police officers and smoke weed behind the burnt out cinema.

What the holy hell makes you sway towards her side about the fact she has had altercations with the law? Why is this by definition good? Do you have a Che Guevara poster on your bedroom wall?
I am more of a 13 year old reactionary.
Have yet to mature to the 18yr old version.
It is my PERSONAL OPINION that it is relatively "good" because it is more interesting that the usual bland SJW stance.
I thought that I outlined this position?

And no, I do not now, nor ever had a Che Guevara Poster on my wall, although I do currently have a MAD parody of said poster hanging in my dunny. "VIVA LA STUPIDITY" it reads.
And when on Earth did you, in particular, become a judge of social maturity??
Akin to being berated for a parking offence by the Godfather.

I dismiss your sudden concern for my internal thoughts as a silly thing.
I set fire to your straw-men in protest!

Skep tickle
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12942

Post by Skep tickle »

Jack wrote:
Michael K Gray wrote:
Jack wrote:Because of it's dictionary definition the word atheism in activism has been accepted to mean secularism and anti-theism. Even that is arguable. In any event no one has the right to assume a philosophy on it, especially one so deeply flawed and not in general agreement.
I count myself as both an atheist, (in the trivial sense), and an anti-theist.
A rabid anti-theist.
But even theists can be anti-theist. Hindu versus Islam. Mormon versus Scientology, and cetera...
Many folk who identify as Christians are anti-main-stream-Christianity.
Too often folk conflate theism with Churches.
The Catholic Church is a money-making criminal organization which, like the Mafia, has no interest in theology save for a thin cover by which they excuse their extortion, robbery, rape & genocide.
They are a Church, but theism is incidental to the point of irrelevance.

Anti-theism is NOT a subset of Atheism.
I said atheist movements. Not atheism. Atheism informs us of nothing except the existence of an entity. Atheists movements, to have a purpose at all, have assumed other roles. Tough luck if you don't like it.
PZ's talk in Seattle a couple of days ago was titled "Moving Atheism Beyond Science"; I was one of about 200 attendees.

PZ claimed that people (perhaps especially atheists) think "Anti-theism + Science = Atheism" (he had that 'equation' on several slides), but "Atheism" (he claimed) has to move "beyond science" in order to make "Atheism" more meaningful and attractive to the growing number of non-theists, and more relevant to addressing the needs of the world.

And to do that, IMO he used sleight of hand: slipping "secular humanism" in and renaming it "Atheism". Ta da! Problem solved! Atheism saved!

He had a pithy one-liner lots of attendees liked: "Science is the floor, not the ceiling" (in considering matters of morality and human endeavors).

He imparted, in a very serious tone, the edict that we all have to accept, and I quote, "the personal testimony of women" when they say they are harassed or raped. (It sounded to me like he was equating harassment with rape, but perhaps I misunderstood his intent or his words in those 1-2 sentences.)

I was tempted to ask during Q&A whether he thought that we should also accept other "personal testimony", for example that of theists, but that seemed low priority in the scheme of things. (Besides, did you think he'd say, "Oh, right! Good point.")

To clarify, I'm happy to accept anyone's "personal testimony" - but only as their report about their personal experience, obviously not as a reliable way to make a factual determination, including regarding any other person's intent (which "harassment" pretty much implies).

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12943

Post by Michael K Gray »

Jack wrote:I said atheist movements. Not atheism.
Indeed you did.
That may be my mistake.
Would you care to precisely define what you meant by "atheist movements"?
At this stage, I'm afraid that I can only vaguely guess.

Do you include Pharyngula, for instance?
Do you include the Chinese or Albanian Governments?
Do you include Buddhism?
Do you include Richard Dawkins Foundation for Science & Reason?
Do you include Raelianism?
Do you include Calithumpianism?

If not, then why not?
If so, then why?

Precisely what distinguishes your ill-defined "Atheist Movements" from "Anti-Theists", or "Anti-Churches"?
(Or Social Justice Warriors, for that matter)

AndrewV69
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Posts: 8146
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12944

Post by AndrewV69 »

Michael K Gray wrote:
Garlic wrote:Is there any example of universal suffrage being durably repelled? Even fascist regimes upheld women's suffrage.
Saudi Arabia?
Also Iran(1) and I would not be surprised if Egypt(2) and Tunisia(3) followed suit, but not without some resistance. Certainly where the Salafis have influence you can count on whatever reforms were made favouring women will be rolled back and/or ignored.

Incidentally, the recent Saudi announcement(4) about women only work oriented cities (last I heard it was a total of three) should not be taken as a sign that they intend to loosen the reins any time soon. From what I see it does mean that the decision makers have been convinced it is a good idea to expand their work force to include a pool of currently unexploited and idle resources. They are in fact only doing this now because they chose a different development model(5) from other Muslim countries.

I say idle because the Saudis have a considerable number of imported domestic labour(6) to chauffeur their womenfolk hither and yon, and servants to cook, clean, wash and child care. So that probably represents a significant number of educated women freed from the burdens of child care and other domestic responsibilities, and consequently with enough time on their hands to get up to considerable mischief.

Those of us here who are of the male persuasion probably have a good idea what the word "mischief" implies, and why it is enough to cause one to break out in a cold sweat at the thought.

So they are probably killing two birds with one stone, so as to speak.

Finally, in the course of writing this, I was reminded of something I had bookmarked well over a year ago. But more about that later. I am heading off to bed now.

1). WOMEN IN ISLAMIC SOCIETIES: A SELECTED REVIEW OF SOCIAL SCIENTIFIC LITERATURE
http://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/pdf-files/Wom ... ieties.pdf
P.5
Reforms of family law often have been limited by the state’s perceived need to appease
conservative social elements and, since the 1970s, growing Islamist movements. Islamist
movements, sometimes through outright state takeover, as in Iran, occasionally have
succeeded in rolling back “women-friendly” reforms previously achieved.
2). American Univrsity of Cairo : Egypt’s Revolution: Has it Left the Egyptian Women Behind?
http://www.aucegypt.edu/news/Pages/News ... px?rid=351
On women’s status in the constitution, El Bendary argued that many, including women, were frustrated with the formation of the Constitutional Committee that drafted the constitution, which did not live up to the ambitions of women. “Certain articles that stipulated positive discrimination, like the article specifying a quota for women, were removed from the current constitution and instead there was a focus on the traditional role of women.”
3). World Report 2012: Tunisia
http://www.hrw.org/world-report-2012/wo ... 12-tunisia
On August 16 the Council of Ministers adopted a draft decree to lift Tunisia’s reservations to the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women. However, the government maintained “a general declaration” suggesting that it might not implement reforms that conflict with Islam.
4). Saudi Arabia plans new city for women workers only
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/au ... en-workers
The proposals follow government instructions to create more job openings for women to enable them to have a more important role in the country's development.
5). Domestic Workers Count: Global Data on an Often Invisible Sector
http://www.uni-kassel.de/upress/online/ ... t.frei.pdf
significant is the domestic work sector in the Gulf countries, with 1.2
to two million working in Saudi Arabia (Human Rights Watch 2007)
6) Refer to note 1). above for the title and document.
P.6
The levels of Muslim women’s participation in the paid labor force are best explained by
a particular economy’s development strategy and consequent need for female labor,
rather than by, for example, religious ideology or cultural beliefs in male
breadwinner/female-homemaker roles. In the oil-boom years prior to the mid-1980s, the
oil-centered economies of MENA did not require female labor in order to grow. Thus,
oil-rich nations such as Saudi Arabia had few women in the labor force. By contrast,
Muslim counties that sought to develop through labor-intensive industrial production,
such as Tunisia, Malaysia, or Indonesia, feature high female labor force participation.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12945

Post by Michael K Gray »

AndrewV69 wrote:
Michael K Gray wrote:
Garlic wrote:Is there any example of universal suffrage being durably repelled? Even fascist regimes upheld women's suffrage.
Saudi Arabia?
Also Iran(1) and I would not be surprised if Egypt(2) and Tunisia(3) followed suit, but not without some resistance. Certainly where the Salafis have influence you can count on whatever reforms were made favouring women will be rolled back and/or ignored.
I must admit that I assumed the adverb "durably" to mean "chronic", or extended over time, (vis: having been in place, and remained in force for a long time), rather than your indicated acute "roll-backs".
Again, I may have been over-literal.

But that is not my fault.
I am in Tears-of-Rage®⁸ now contemplating the misogynist intersectional garblefargle anti-woman threatening mansplainin' iniquity of it.
Did I say "misogynist"?

You, YES: YOU! Have abrogated my very being with your slight re-interpretation of the OP's words. Intent is NOT magic, you utterly feelingless cunt!
Conjuring is not magic!
The rope-tricks that I do at Christmas ARE magic.
And fun too.
Depending on where I tie them.
(And in which trunk I lock the 'victim'.)
__________________
⁸ Tears-of-Rage® Setar Elf'n'Safety Doll now available.
(Troll tears not include. Serving Suggestion Only)
By Matt-hell, a division of Atheist Experience Inc.
WARNING! WARRANTY VOID IF FED BULLSHIT AFTER MIDNIGHT.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12946

Post by John Greg »

Skep Tickle said:
I was tempted to ask during Q&A whether he thought that we should also accept other "personal testimony", for example that of theists, but that seemed low priority in the scheme of things.
Tempted.

You were tempted.

How nice for you.

Skep Tickle, I have a lot of respect for everything you have said here at the Pit, over time, but my unavoidable response to that statement is:

If you were tempted to ask such a question, of the Lord PeeZus of the Church of Deceit ... WHY THE FUCK DIDN'T YOU!!??!!

One of the biggest problems in regards to dealing with these fucking idiots is that nobody ever seems to stand up and point out the bullshit, especially during public yadda yas, with profound, meaningfull questions.

GRR.

Dick Strawkins
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12947

Post by Dick Strawkins »

Skep tickle wrote:
PZ's talk in Seattle a couple of days ago was titled "Moving Atheism Beyond Science"; I was one of about 200 attendees.

PZ claimed that people (perhaps especially atheists) think "Anti-theism + Science = Atheism" (he had that 'equation' on several slides), but "Atheism" (he claimed) has to move "beyond science" in order to make "Atheism" more meaningful and attractive to the growing number of non-theists, and more relevant to addressing the needs of the world.

And to do that, IMO he used sleight of hand: slipping "secular humanism" in and renaming it "Atheism". Ta da! Problem solved! Atheism saved!

He had a pithy one-liner lots of attendees liked: "Science is the floor, not the ceiling" (in considering matters of morality and human endeavors).

He imparted, in a very serious tone, the edict that we all have to accept, and I quote, "the personal testimony of women" when they say they are harassed or raped. (It sounded to me like he was equating harassment with rape, but perhaps I misunderstood his intent or his words in those 1-2 sentences.)

I was tempted to ask during Q&A whether he thought that we should also accept other "personal testimony", for example that of theists, but that seemed low priority in the scheme of things. (Besides, did you think he'd say, "Oh, right! Good point.")

To clarify, I'm happy to accept anyone's "personal testimony" - but only as their report about their personal experience, obviously not as a reliable way to make a factual determination, including regarding any other person's intent (which "harassment" pretty much implies).
Ophelia argues that she, as a professional blogger, has as her workplace the entire internetwebthing.
Therefore rules on harrassment that apply to workplace settings - for example, criticism from people working on the next desk in your office - should also apply to the internet.
How is that not a licence to avoid all criticism?
Does anyone think for a second that Ophelia thinks that she should, likewise, avoid criticising bloggers she disagrees with?

As for Peezus' move towards Shakesville territory, I wonder if he should follow the logic of his words and immediately suspend one of his fellow FTB bloggers, Jason Terrible.

Jason admits to being accused of rape.
Yet, surely by Peezus rules Jason should never use the term "false".
He should "accept the personal testimony" of the woman that accused him.
Any other response is simply promoting rape culture.
http://i.imgur.com/0KcgVVM.png

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12948

Post by Michael K Gray »

Dick Strawkins wrote:
Skep tickle wrote:As for Peezus' move towards Shakesville territory, I wonder if he should follow the logic of his words and immediately suspend one of his fellow FTB bloggers, Jason Terrible.
Jason admits to being accused of rape.
Yet, surely by Peezus rules Jason should never use the term "false".
He should "accept the personal testimony" of the woman that accused him.
Any other response is simply promoting rape culture.
http://i.imgur.com/0KcgVVM.png
HYPOCRISY, Thy name is FTB

Scented Nectar
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12949

Post by Scented Nectar »

Maximus wrote:(Woohoo it worked! Thanks for the tutorials Scented, and thanks Mr Preview button)
You're welcome. :)

Coming soon, a tutorial on using the hidden edit button. Oops, was I supposed to mention that?

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12950

Post by John Greg »

Jason Thibeault, aka, LousyCanuck, is (aside from Laden), the most toxic, vapid, and morally / ethically bankrupt piece of pseudomorphic, animatronic garbage that you can find on the 'net.

He is a totally, completely, inarguabley worthless piece of recycled dog's vomit.

Seriously he is, ugh, just, well, uhgh ... / puke / vomit / projectile shit-spew ....

....

I think the most, erm, resonant thing to say about that piece of leftover garbage that the garbge people left behind on the curb, is that he really and truly wants to be Greg Laden. Ya. I think that says it all. I mean, fuck me, he is even moving down there to be with his sociopathic buddies, Laden, Zvan, Myers, etc.

Ugh.

Scented Nectar
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12951

Post by Scented Nectar »

Michael K Gray wrote:
sacha wrote:
ERV wrote:What? I was 'friends' with PZ for ages, and he had no problem throwing me under the bus when I mildly chastised Watson (why? have to ask his psychiatrist). They dont have friends. They have tools. You throw away a tool when it 'breaks'. EBW 'broke' so she got tossed, like everyone else who confused our relationship as their 'friends'.
exactly. There is no loyalty. It is the popular girl's clique in high school. Assimilate or be shunned. Heathers.

and yes, I think it is funny as fuck when one of the "popular chicks" makes one wrong move, and finds themselves eating their lunch at a big table, all alone with the others pointing and whispering.

The universe is indifferent, so I find pleasure in the rare times someone gets exactly what they deserve.
What does Scented Nectar say to distil this approach?
"Scrutiny is Mutiny"!
That should be the official logo for A+, FfTB, and the Skepchickies. Questioning feminist dogma is a high crime, one of the worst of the thought crimes, even worse than objectification and sexualizing. The crime is also called "being hyper-skeptical", newspeak which I think was coined by Steffy, IIRC. If Orwell were alive today, he'd be writing novels based on it.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12952

Post by Bhurzum »

This was almost responsible for a full rectal prolapse.

My GF, after enduring nearly five minutes of my cackling, called me a "dickhead" before flouncing off to buy coffee in our local Starbucks. I've got no idea why but this cartoon really hit my funny-button.

You've got to do more of these!

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12953

Post by DW Adams »

I think Myers is about to lose a Facebook friend or two:

http://atheiststoday.com/images/pzreddit.png

codelette
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12954

Post by codelette »


codelette
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12955

Post by codelette »

codelette wrote:http://i.imgur.com/uWCdKFx.png

um...what?
Fucking imgur...
The delicious dumbfuck comment below:
Naw.

I'm not interested in this video in the least because of the visual content, and I'm glad that you tagged it.

Do you perhaps think you can find a different source of libertarian thought on the war on drugs that doesn't include snuff and violence?

and if you can't find one, can you do me a favor and let me know that you can't find one?

Guest

Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12956

Post by Guest »

pz is timely and accurate as always

http://www.reddit.com/r/AdviceAnimals/s ... rict_sr=on

meme is basically already dead (like pz) mostly repetitive (ahem) and more than half of it was mocking the meme or mocking users wanting to see boobs (not sure i want to make another analogy)

Hunt
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12957

Post by Hunt »

Skep tickle wrote: He imparted, in a very serious tone, the edict that we all have to accept, and I quote, "the personal testimony of women" when they say they are harassed or raped. (It sounded to me like he was equating harassment with rape, but perhaps I misunderstood his intent or his words in those 1-2 sentences.)

I was tempted to ask during Q&A whether he thought that we should also accept other "personal testimony", for example that of theists, but that seemed low priority in the scheme of things. (Besides, did you think he'd say, "Oh, right! Good point.")

To clarify, I'm happy to accept anyone's "personal testimony" - but only as their report about their personal experience, obviously not as a reliable way to make a factual determination, including regarding any other person's intent (which "harassment" pretty much implies).
My take on this is that anyone has the right to establish their own policy regarding personal testimony. If PZ wants to assert that he will believe all reports of rape and harassment then he has the right to do so. It's analogous to my own policy regarding panhandling. I will always give money if I have it on me, even if it happens that the person will go buy booze or drugs. I've decided that it's not in my purview for that to stop me from giving. But this is my own personal guideline.

The only thing that actually matters though is whether law enforcement take rape and harassment threats seriously and respond in an appropriate fashion.

What PZ, et al. actually want is (surprise) more power than that. They want his type of policy to spill over into influencing actual criminal investigation and prosecution. They dearly want a default assumption of guilt until proven innocent. This is why the whole Steubenville media firestorm and lynch mob mentality spun into existence by Anonymous was such an orgasmic wet-dream for these guys. And no, I'm not saying I think the Steubenville boys were innocent. People (like me) who get concerned about trends like this hypothesize about what might happen IF the Steubenville boys <i>were</i> innocent and had to deal with a process like that.

SurpriseGuest

Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12958

Post by SurpriseGuest »

Wow. Generalizing reddit is like being nationalist to a small country. Or racist to a demographic of people. So many different, totally innocent of thisandthat people use the thing. Shame on PZ Myers. Grabbing the first photo he can and saying its widespread on Reddit.

Jan Steen
Pit Art Master
Pit Art Master
Posts: 3061
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:18 am

Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12959

Post by Jan Steen »


Guest

Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12960

Post by Guest »

apparently the pic source. not sure if anyone can translate the title text

http://ru-auto.livejournal.com/24147917.html

look at all the people enjoying the outdoors, and the freedom to do as they like and dress as they like among a host of others, of all generations!

but so much misogyny, cuz boobs!

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