Steerzing in a New Direction...

Old subthreads
Locked
Matt Cavanaugh
.
.
Posts: 15449
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:38 pm
Contact:

Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#2101

Post by Matt Cavanaugh »

In the Rittenhouse trial, the state is trying to spin the narrative that somehow Kyle was 'out looking for trouble' that day. Implying that, even if goons were trying to kill him, he thus had no right to defend himself. It's a desperate ploy from an exceptionally bad ADA, Binger, who the judge has literally laughed at on several occasions. For example, when Binger argued that an unarmed individual can never be considered an aggressor.

Rittenhouse's actions are the most clearly justified acts of self-defense imaginable. The standard anti-white racism aside, the Left's rabid hatred of Rittenhouse stems imo from two things: 1) the double standard that condones the Left's violence and mayhem; 2) the Left can't stand the idea that anyone would take personable responsibility for self-protection, an underlying theme of anti-gun activism.

Andrew Branca is providing running updates of the proceedings, plus end-of-day recaps:

Day 1


Day 2

Matt Cavanaugh
.
.
Posts: 15449
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:38 pm
Contact:

Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#2102

Post by Matt Cavanaugh »

John D wrote:
Lsuoma wrote: Dark-eyed? We have them all year round here in W WA.
Yeah. Dark eyed juncos. They only winter in my area of South East Michigan. They summer in Canada.

ThreeFlangedJavis
.
.
Posts: 2181
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:13 am

Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#2103

Post by ThreeFlangedJavis »

fafnir wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:51 pm
"why there's some value in clearly differentiating between the biological and the psychological"
"biologically male", "psychologically male". Done. I didn't need to change the meaning of any commonly used words.
The only way to win this game is not to play. Spit the hook now!

ThreeFlangedJavis
.
.
Posts: 2181
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:13 am

Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#2104

Post by ThreeFlangedJavis »

Service Dog wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 4:47 am
Brive1987 wrote: most conventional wisdom is in fact a cover for global capitalism. This includes the current push for shit food. However, many of the COVID outcomes of the past 18 months have been disruptive to the momentum of these wealth creating strategies. I acknowledge measures designed to recover the status quo are realigned with this agenda. That’s why I side-eye claims that lock down et al are a new grab at a new paradigm.

So it’s with a sigh and a sense of resignation that I face the alternative of ongoing futile disruption vs the slow march back to a fucked normalcy.
Excellent observation. I wanna why the business-as-usual capitalism is being derailed.

The first hypothesis which jumps into my head-- is that the players aren't pursuing "wealth creating". They've already obtained the wealth/power-- now they're trying to exercise it. Like a guy who rises from laborer to tycoon-- but his grandkids spend the fortune on cat sanctuaries & lavish halloween parties & donations to new-age gurus.
Then there is an angle that isn't being considered. Who do you think are the paying members of the WEF? They're all the usual suspects, the big industrialists and finance people. They don't join clubs to spite their bottom line.

ThreeFlangedJavis
.
.
Posts: 2181
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:13 am

Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#2105

Post by ThreeFlangedJavis »

Matt Cavanaugh wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 7:53 am
In the Rittenhouse trial, the state is trying to spin the narrative that somehow Kyle was 'out looking for trouble' that day. Implying that, even if goons were trying to kill him, he thus had no right to defend himself. It's a desperate ploy from an exceptionally bad ADA, Binger, who the judge has literally laughed at on several occasions. For example, when Binger argued that an unarmed individual can never be considered an aggressor.

Rittenhouse's actions are the most clearly justified acts of self-defense imaginable. The standard anti-white racism aside, the Left's rabid hatred of Rittenhouse stems imo from two things: 1) the double standard that condones the Left's violence and mayhem; 2) the Left can't stand the idea that anyone would take personable responsibility for self-protection, an underlying theme of anti-gun activism.

Andrew Branca is providing running updates of the proceedings, plus end-of-day recaps:

Day 1


Day 2
There are concerning signs from the defense team. Robert Barnes has been given the boot along with the jury selection experts and self-defence legal experts he drew in. Apparently this happened when the defense team were pressed to back up their assurances that the Rittenhouses controlled the defense fund. Per Barnes there is a shady security consultant keeping the Rittenhouses on a short leash and controlling access to them. Again per Barnes the defense lawyers don't have much of a winning record and clearly did not use any of the piles of data provided to them to aid in jury selection. He thinks they stuffed up the jury selection and that's serious considering how badly Binger has seeded the potential jury pool with lies. Admittedly Barnes can sometimes have a bit of a Svengali effect on people but he has a good track record of predicting skullduggery and incompetence in high profile cases.


Matt Cavanaugh
.
.
Posts: 15449
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:38 pm
Contact:

Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#2106

Post by Matt Cavanaugh »

ThreeFlangedJavis wrote: There are concerning signs from the defense team. Robert Barnes has been given the boot along with the jury selection experts and self-defence legal experts he drew in. Apparently this happened when the defense team were pressed to back up their assurances that the Rittenhouses controlled the defense fund. Per Barnes there is a shady security consultant keeping the Rittenhouses on a short leash and controlling access to them. Again per Barnes the defense lawyers don't have much of a winning record and clearly did not use any of the piles of data provided to them to aid in jury selection. He thinks they stuffed up the jury selection and that's serious considering how badly Binger has seeded the potential jury pool with lies. Admittedly Barnes can sometimes have a bit of a Svengali effect on people but he has a good track record of predicting skullduggery and incompetence in high profile cases.

Not doing an hour of two men jabbering.
Barnes is an F. Lee Bailey type, so not terribly trustworthy, especially as he's butthurt over getting dumped. Nor should he be throwing stones about winning records.

Kyle's mom sounds like a bit of a loose cannon; not unwise to keep her quiet.

Branca, who I tend to trust, found nothing alarming about the voir dire:

https://legalinsurrection.com/2021/11/r ... t-testify/

Keating
.
.
Posts: 2421
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2015 3:18 pm
Location: South of anteater guy

Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#2107

Post by Keating »

ThreeFlangedJavis wrote: Then there is an angle that isn't being considered. Who do you think are the paying members of the WEF? They're all the usual suspects, the big industrialists and finance people. They don't join clubs to spite their bottom line.
This is my problem too. What we've just experienced is one of the biggest wealth transfers in history. My favourite mum & dad run coffee shop went out of business, but Coles and Woolworths had their most profitable years ever.

I think we got fucked by China. None of the response measures had any really scientific backing, except that the CCP promoted them through institutions they completely own, like the World Health Organisation. Indeed, there were videos going around in early 2020 of Chinese people dropping dead in the streets that were never seen as a result of this virus outside of China. That was clearly part of their psyops, to scare people to demand more extreme government action. That was the one piece of the puzzle I could never make fit, and only makes sense if the Chinese, in addition to creating the virus with US funds, also decided to use the (probable accidental) release of it to leverage power over the rest of the world.

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news ... -cowardice

Now that Soros has decided that Xi is his enemy, it'll be interesting to see who wins that battle. Hopefully they destroy each other.

Keating
.
.
Posts: 2421
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2015 3:18 pm
Location: South of anteater guy

Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#2108

Post by Keating »

Which is not to say that business-as-usual 2019 was great and perfect, just that things can always get worse.

Lsuoma
Fascist Tit
Posts: 11692
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:58 pm
Location: Punggye-ri

Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#2109

Post by Lsuoma »

The spy is gone; James Gone.

Lsuoma
Fascist Tit
Posts: 11692
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:58 pm
Location: Punggye-ri

Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#2110

Post by Lsuoma »


Keating
.
.
Posts: 2421
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2015 3:18 pm
Location: South of anteater guy

Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#2111

Post by Keating »

Wasn't that last year?

Keating
.
.
Posts: 2421
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2015 3:18 pm
Location: South of anteater guy

Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#2112

Post by Keating »

You only live twice, I guess

Steersman
.
.
Posts: 10933
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 8:58 pm
Contact:

Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#2113

Post by Steersman »

fafnir wrote:
Steersman wrote: <snip>

What's your definition for "female"? What makes you think it can trump the biological one?

As for "not in their right mind", you think that that describes Paul Griffiths - professor at University of Sydney, expert in the philosophy of science, co-author of Genetics and Philosophy, and author of this Aeon essay?
Do you have any quote where they explicitly state that elderly women aren't female or something similar?
Do you have any quote where "they explicitly state" that someone who's 35 years old is no longer a teenager? That a married man is no longer a bachelor?

It's not necessary to do so; it's implicit in the "necessary and sufficient conditions" that must be present to qualify someone as a teenager or bachelor. Or a male or a female.

Pretty sure I linked to the Wikipedia article on the "extensional and intensional definitions" that described that principle in some detail:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extension ... efinitions

You might try reading - or re-reading - it with some attention to the details and the consequences.
fafnir wrote:
Steersman wrote: But you seem not to understand that "male" and "female" apply to large percentages of literally millions of species. Why it's essential to much if not all of biology. And why "psychologically male" is rather untenable at best. ....
Male and female sexes are expressed differently in different species. Somehow that isn't confusing and we don't need to have a word for sex that is specific and exclusive to humans and words for each sex that are specific to humans. Maleness is expressed differently in humans vs penguins. The gender associated with maleness is expressed differently in humans vs penguins. Why is it fine to have one word for sex for the whole of nature, but we need a word for gender that is specific to humans? It's a paradox, like how gender needs to be deconstructed and fluid, but racial categories need to be set in stone. The rules that govern this are rules of convenience.
However the sexes are "expressed", there is only one "necessary and sufficient condition" to qualify any member of a sexually reproducing species as male or female: having the actual ability to produce either sperm or ova. No tickee, no washee.

But what do you mean by "maleness" and "gender"? If by the former you mean the psychological and behavioural traits typical of males then that is more or less exactly what the more rational commentators on the topic mean by "gender".

However, your "one word for sex for the whole of nature, but we need a word for gender that is specific to human" looks to be pushing a definition - for "political purposes"? - for "gender" that's the same as what the convention now means by "sex". You might note that Wiktionary more or less proscribes the use of "gender" when we are talking about the ability to reproduce - which is what is denoted by the sexes, male and female:
(traditional, proscribed) Sex (a category such as "male" or "female" into which sexually-reproducing organisms are divided on the basis of their reproductive roles in their species)
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gender#Noun

And Merriam-Webster, the BMJ, and WHO all more or less emphasize that same dichotomy, those quite different kettles of fish.

But sex and race are also quite different kettles of fish, sex being based on the presence of either of two quite distinct functions while race is more or less a spectrum of largely cosmetic features.
fafnir wrote: <snip>
Maybe we can rationalise the concept of "Whiteness" while we are at it? The whole framework for thinking about the world that this terminology comes from is damaging. You can't meet deconstruction half way.
As I just indicated, comparing race and sex is something of a false analogy: there are two criteria to qualify organisms as male or female, but there is a myriad of criteria that might define a plethora of races.

See definition 1.3:

https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/race
fafnir wrote: <snip>
They do the same way a three legged tiger is still a tiger regardless of whether quadruped is in the definition. I haven't seen you quote any academic who actually states this. Even if you do, it's the day to day definition and legal definition that matters, and with respect to them no sane person says post menopausal women aren't female.
The standard definition for species is based on the "necessary and sufficient condition" of being able to interbreed with other members of it. That a tiger is 3 legged or a human is one-legged does not mean they're no longer members:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species

"quadrapedal" and "bipedal" are "accidental properties", not essential ones.

As for "day to day and legal definitions", pray tell what might those be for "female" and "woman"? If there's no objective criteria, no "necessary and sufficient condition" for membership, if it's all a matter of "self-identification" or some wooish and mythic essence then anyone can play. That's the problem that you apparently evade - for your own "political purposes" ...
fafnir wrote:
<snip>
Steersman wrote: Which is why I've argued that access to sports, changing rooms, and other areas and opportunities really isn't by sex - by reproductive abilities; it's basically by genitalia or maybe karyotype. If we were rational then we might create laws to reflect that fact.
If it's by genitalia, you'd have Castor Semenya compete as a women because she has female genitals, even though she has functional testes?
Actually she doesn't - she's neither male nor female.

But I'll agree that that is something of a thorny "edge case". Why I suggested using karyotype or a combination of factors - testosterone levels for example.

Still doesn't justify "distorting" the biological definition - as Griffiths put it.
fafnir wrote: <snip>
Steersman wrote: You and no few others look to be engaged in corrupting that "concept of biological sex", and for your own highly questionable "political purposes".
No. I am saying that for thousands of years we have pretty solidly known what we meant by man and woman, male and female. Our laws and cultural norms evolved around those meanings. .... First you had activist judges interpreting the law to get the right outcome. Now we have activist lexicographers.
And for thousands of years people thought the Earth was flat and the center of the universe. Our knowledge changes and improves; our definitions, "laws and cultural norms" should do likewise. Or would you in general argue otherwise?

Steersman
.
.
Posts: 10933
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 8:58 pm
Contact:

Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#2114

Post by Steersman »

ThreeFlangedJavis wrote:
fafnir wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:51 pm
"why there's some value in clearly differentiating between the biological and the psychological"
"biologically male", "psychologically male". Done. I didn't need to change the meaning of any commonly used words.
The only way to win this game is not to play. Spit the hook now!
Aw, you're no fun ... ;)

But it's a serious business defining our categories, one that many here - far more elsewhere - rather desperately try avoiding or sweeping under the carpet. As Pinker suggests, it is arguably humanity's claim to fame and fortune:

Pinker_HowTheMindWorks_Categories.jpg
(57.51 KiB) Downloaded 199 times

Or, as Orwell put it (paraphrased in a Quillette article):


I've often argued that "gender" is largely incoherent twaddle - anti-scientific claptrap no better than phrenology, astrology, and the Myers-Brigg Type Indicator for personalities all put together.

But it's not entirely "claptrap"- even Fafnir acknowledges that there are a great many psychological traits that are more common in one sex than another. Which is an element and aspect of "gender" that's worth promoting and endorsing - accentuate the positive, eliminate the negative.

However, we can't possibly separate wheat and chaff without FIRST defining what we mean by the relevant terms.

Bhurzum
Brassy, uncouth, henpecked meathead
Posts: 5059
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2013 2:08 am
Location: Lurking in a dumpster

Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#2115

Post by Bhurzum »

Lsuoma wrote: The spy is gone; James Gone.
Sean Gonnery?

What? Too soon?

ThreeFlangedJavis
.
.
Posts: 2181
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:13 am

Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#2116

Post by ThreeFlangedJavis »

Matt Cavanaugh wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 10:52 am
ThreeFlangedJavis wrote: There are concerning signs from the defense team. Robert Barnes has been given the boot along with the jury selection experts and self-defence legal experts he drew in. Apparently this happened when the defense team were pressed to back up their assurances that the Rittenhouses controlled the defense fund. Per Barnes there is a shady security consultant keeping the Rittenhouses on a short leash and controlling access to them. Again per Barnes the defense lawyers don't have much of a winning record and clearly did not use any of the piles of data provided to them to aid in jury selection. He thinks they stuffed up the jury selection and that's serious considering how badly Binger has seeded the potential jury pool with lies. Admittedly Barnes can sometimes have a bit of a Svengali effect on people but he has a good track record of predicting skullduggery and incompetence in high profile cases.

Not doing an hour of two men jabbering.
Barnes is an F. Lee Bailey type, so not terribly trustworthy, especially as he's butthurt over getting dumped. Nor should he be throwing stones about winning records.

Kyle's mom sounds like a bit of a loose cannon; not unwise to keep her quiet.

Branca, who I tend to trust, found nothing alarming about the voir dire:

https://legalinsurrection.com/2021/11/r ... t-testify/
I don't see the Bailey parallel. Is there something you know? Occasionally I have this visceral reaction to Barnes that he is a very highly capable professional who knows the law inside out but he is using his cred to slip by some overstatement or self-serving twist. That said, I've found him to be a quite reliable predictor of the behaviour and performance of his fellow professionals.He was way ahead of the curve on the Democrat pre-election legal strategy and the inadequacy of Trump's response, not to mention how accurately critical he was of the post election legal strategy. He prides himself on being a student of behaviour and overall I think he is right, if given to gilding the lily a bit when it comes to techniques such as body language interpretation. I believe him when he says he isn't personally slighted by rejection by the Rittenhouse team but is just worried about what is going on. He doesn't preclude the existence of political or other valid considerations for rejecting help. He claims that he drew in heavyweights to help with the case, at expense to himself and on the strength of his assurances to them, and he is concerned by what he sees as a failure to make use of invaluable resources.

My personal concern is that the current small team are out for glory and are walking into a scenario they are not equipped for. Are they relying on some legal strategy that takes no account of extreme juror prejudice or the huge potential for lying witnesses given the nature of the case? The Chauvin debacle illustrated what happens when jurors lie their way onto a jury with the intent of enacting their convictions. It would seem to me that the bigger the team the better and knowledge of how to leverage internet autists might be vital.

Lsuoma
Fascist Tit
Posts: 11692
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:58 pm
Location: Punggye-ri

Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#2117

Post by Lsuoma »

Bhurzum wrote:
Lsuoma wrote: The spy is gone; James Gone.
Sean Gonnery?

What? Too soon?
No, too late. It was last year, and I don't know why I posted it.

Matt Cavanaugh
.
.
Posts: 15449
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:38 pm
Contact:

Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#2118

Post by Matt Cavanaugh »

ThreeFlangedJavis wrote: I don't see the Bailey parallel. Is there something you know?
cf. Wesley Snipes, sovereign citizen.
Occasionally I have this visceral reaction to Barnes that he is a very highly capable professional who knows the law inside out but he is using his cred to slip by some overstatement or self-serving twist. That said, I've found him to be a quite reliable predictor of the behaviour and performance of his fellow professionals.He was way ahead of the curve on the Democrat pre-election legal strategy and the inadequacy of Trump's response, not to mention how accurately critical he was of the post election legal strategy. He prides himself on being a student of behaviour and overall I think he is right, if given to gilding the lily a bit when it comes to techniques such as body language interpretation.
Maybe he is. I have no idea, and am not about to find out by watching a one hour video that has no titties in it.

I believe him when he says he isn't personally slighted by rejection by the Rittenhouse team but is just worried about what is going on. He doesn't preclude the existence of political or other valid considerations for rejecting help. He claims that he drew in heavyweights to help with the case, at expense to himself and on the strength of his assurances to them, and he is concerned by what he sees as a failure to make use of invaluable resources.
Has he raised specific concerns with any of the jurors?
My personal concern is that the current small team are out for glory and are walking into a scenario they are not equipped for. Are they relying on some legal strategy that takes no account of extreme juror prejudice or the huge potential for lying witnesses given the nature of the case? The Chauvin debacle illustrated what happens when jurors lie their way onto a jury with the intent of enacting their convictions. It would seem to me that the bigger the team the better and knowledge of how to leverage internet autists might be vital.
Rittenhouse is just fortunate he didn't smoke any negroes. The Left seems to be ignoring this one, and I'm not sensing any of the mob mentality that turned the Chauvin trial into a kangaroo court, with jurors worried Maxine Waters would burn down their homes.

I've only read Branca's summary of the voir dire, but I was surprised at how many prospective jurors who'd taken protective measures during the riots -- boarding up their houses, buying a gun -- were not dismissed. Maybe because nearly everyone in Kenosha did, and state only had seven preemptories. A runaway jury is always a possibility, but barring that, this is a slam-dunk acquittal. Defense has been competent and methodical, while ADA Binger has bungled throughout. He clearly seems to not understand the law, for which he's been repeatedly spanked by the judge. Yesterday, the judge paused proceedings to give the jury a mini lesson on why Binger had fucked up trying to admit hearsay. Binger had a tall hill to climb to persuade the jury to ignore the law, their instructions, and their own eyes. So far, he's only dug himself a hole.

Matt Cavanaugh
.
.
Posts: 15449
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:38 pm
Contact:

Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#2119

Post by Matt Cavanaugh »

Royal Marines, despite being dragged down by Canadians, wipe the floor with US Marines in training exercise. But at least our troops got the pronouns right.

British Royal Marine commandos force US Marines into humiliating surrender halfway through five-day war training exercise in Mojave desert

John D
.
.
Posts: 5966
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:23 am
Location: Detroit, MI. USA

Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#2120

Post by John D »

Random thoughts from random John:

1) Like pornography, I can't really define "Critical Race Theory", but I know it when I see it. Telling a five year old white kid that they are subconsciously racist just because they have a certain skin color... that's CRT.

2) Black woman elected Vice-Governor of Virginia posing with an AR in a photo. This is good for the US.

3) Climate summit results.... no agreement on anything and Uncle Joe falls asleep. A perfect outcome.

4) A 30 minute hospital procedure will take 5 hours of your life.... just plan on it.

5) Always buy every kind of part you may need for a home repair job. Plan on at least one trip back to the store for a part you missed... and a final trip to return al the extra stuff you bought... just plan on it.

6) When the House Sparrows and Starlings mob your feeder and eat all your suet, just enjoy their company. They are showing you why they are such great survivors.

7) Pronouns do not define you. They are just a handy way for strangers to communicate based on assumptions. A person cannot choose their pronouns... this is not how pronouns work. Pronouns are used to address strangers in a simplified way. John's pronoun rule.... "If you look like a chick I will call you she.... and if you look like a dood I will call you he. If you look like neither a chick or a dood I will avoid your company if possible."

This has been an episode of random thoughts from random John.

fafnir
.
.
Posts: 674
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2015 6:16 pm

Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#2121

Post by fafnir »

ThreeFlangedJavis wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 8:57 am
The only way to win this game is not to play. Spit the hook now!
You may have to organize an intervention.

Matt Cavanaugh
.
.
Posts: 15449
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:38 pm
Contact:

Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#2122

Post by Matt Cavanaugh »

Lsuoma wrote: No, too late. It was last year, and I don't know why I posted it.
It did allow us to savor a dollop of the BBC's patented gratuitous moralizing:
In truth, his Bond is now a museum piece; the portrayal of women impossibly dated. The action scenes are still thrilling, but the sex too often bordered on the non-consensual. Thankfully, its been a while since 007 slapped a woman on the backside and forced a kiss.
And WTF -- no mention of ZARDOZ or DARBY O'GILL AND THE LITTLE PEOPLE, the apex and nadir of his opus?

Recently caught Connery's performance as one of the few bright spots in A BRIDGE TOO FAR. Saw it in the theaters when it came out and in the intervening half century, forgot how tediously bad it was.

ThreeFlangedJavis
.
.
Posts: 2181
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:13 am

Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#2123

Post by ThreeFlangedJavis »

Matt Cavanaugh wrote:
Thu Nov 04, 2021 7:42 am
Royal Marines, despite being dragged down by Canadians, wipe the floor with US Marines in training exercise. But at least our troops got the pronouns right.

British Royal Marine commandos force US Marines into humiliating surrender halfway through five-day war training exercise in Mojave desert
Would take with pinch of salt. Not possible to tell from the article how realistic the scenario was, what limitations were placed on weapons that could be brought to bear or whether there were any specific "starting conditions" favouring anybody. Add in the Daily Mail's propensity for jingoistic BS and I'd have to say don't trust. You never know how engineered these games are to test very specific scenarios and maybe it's quite normal for one side to say "not working, no point, hit reset!"

ThreeFlangedJavis
.
.
Posts: 2181
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:13 am

Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#2124

Post by ThreeFlangedJavis »

John D wrote: Random thoughts from random John:

1) Like pornography, I can't really define "Critical Race Theory", but I know it when I see it. Telling a five year old white kid that they are subconsciously racist just because they have a certain skin color... that's CRT.
You aren't supposed to be able to nail it down. Don't get hung up on the race aspect of it, Marxist politics is the payload. Don't fall for the weaseling about how CRT isn't taught to kiddies. It usually isn't, as an academic discipline, but then CRT application is more important than the teaching of theory. What is being done in schools more often is the application of CRT in teaching legitimate subjects. In arithmetic you can work privilege scores into exercises instead of the traditional apples, for example.

As an interesting aside, James Lindsay claims that Quillette has made a habit of excising references to his work on CRT from submitted articles. Lehmann is said to have thought it too obscure a subject and of interest to nobody. Then Lehmann pops up on John Anderson's podcast explaining Critical Theory. Lindsay then concluded that she was just jockeying for position in the market and expected an attack. The attack materialised immediately after he posted a pic from CPAC. Just serves as a warning to anyone tempted to lionise public figures. Not really surprised about Lehmann TBH.

Matt Cavanaugh
.
.
Posts: 15449
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:38 pm
Contact:

Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#2125

Post by Matt Cavanaugh »

According to one complety unvetted source, ADA Binger's personal email is:

flufferboy[at something something dot com]


Hope this doesn't count as doxxing, cuz it's fucking hilarious.

Lsuoma
Fascist Tit
Posts: 11692
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:58 pm
Location: Punggye-ri

Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#2126

Post by Lsuoma »

it's out there, so no doxxing charges. Recklessly using humor, maybe.

https://copblaster.wordpress.com/2020/1 ... ttenhouse/

Service Dog
.
.
Posts: 8652
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:52 pm

Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#2127

Post by Service Dog »

Work took me to Central Park South-- the big hotels facing the park. My thoughts were on John D's upcoming visit. The neighborhood looked mostly clean & normal.

Which makes the recent wave of squalor & crime-- in my neighborhood-- seem to be the product of some diabolical design. Did city planners intentionally designate my area to be an attractive-nuisance, to concentrate all the raving lunatics/ away-from other areas? The historically-shitty "Bowery" (as in Bowery Bums) is just up the street from me. Flophouses & soup kitchens. But the current mess isn't a continuation of that. The last time that flared-up... was when they released droves of involuntarily-confined mental patients/ just in time for the Crack Cocaine Epidemic. But that dwindled decades-ago... until Boom!... worse than ever now.

Times Square-- up by the Broadway shows-- is still relatively clean & orderly & corporate-sponsored/ hasn't reverted to the old Peep Show days. But all is not entirely well...

Yesterday afternoon-- I went to the [redacted]-teenth police precinct house... to pick-up some No Parking Thursday signs from the Community Affairs officer. I guess the cops were changing shifts-- it was pretty hectic, around the Desk Sergeant. Lots of cops, talking loud. A few strikingly-attractive females/ and some ok-looking ones-- none looked large or dangerous. A lot of small young men, too. Tuesday was the deadline for city workers to be vaxx'd/ or risk being placed-on 'unpaid leave'. Many called-in 'sick'. Many were assigned overtime, to fill the gaps. One small woman said she had exceeded 80 hours for the week... then she discovered some disgruntled officer had cut to pieces every blank Overtime Slip on the desk... leaving one intact at the bottom... with FUCK THE POLICE scrawled on it. "I agree. Fuck the police", she announced-- speaking to no one in particular.

After the changing-of-the-guard commotion... I was stuck waiting for an hour. I wonder if the community affairs guy had been sent out on street patrol.

In the waiting area, a dispenser offered recruitment brochures. So I grabbed a stack & updated them with a sharpie marker. Then put them back in the rack:



Eventually, I got my parking signs & placed them next to the Ritz-Carlton hotel, for today's event.

On the subway ride home, I read Fake News on my phone... that "only 34" NYPD officers had been placed on unpaid leave, for refusing the vax before deadline. "Not" the story claimed "the thousands which the police union officials had insinuated would defy the order."

Further down in the article-- it admitted that an enormous number of cops have filed paperwork to retire, and 15% of the police force remains unvaccinated, and thousands have applied for a religious or other exemption-- and those applications have not yet been processed.

But-- "only 34" have been officially placed on unpaid leave. Move along, sir, nothing to see here. :law-policered:

Matt Cavanaugh
.
.
Posts: 15449
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:38 pm
Contact:

Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#2128

Post by Matt Cavanaugh »

Lsuoma wrote: it's out there, so no doxxing charges. Recklessly using humor, maybe.

https://copblaster.wordpress.com/2020/1 ... ttenhouse/
A metrosexual twink who looks like a cross between Waldo and a Kewpie doll, and who prances about the courtroom whenever the A/V fails, plus is stunningly clueless, kinda has it coming.

FTR, I had to google flufferboy.

Matt Cavanaugh
.
.
Posts: 15449
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:38 pm
Contact:

Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#2129

Post by Matt Cavanaugh »

Service Dog wrote: The last time that flared-up... was when they released droves of involuntarily-confined mental patients/ just in time for the Crack Cocaine Epidemic. But that dwindled decades-ago... until Boom!... worse than ever now.
When Mike Dukakis was governor of Massachusetts, he let all the loonies out of the loonie bins. Out of compassion. Shortly thereafter, I used to regularly run across a crazy woman who lived in front of a CVS in Cleveland Circle. You could always recognize her by the orange socks which she went about in all year long, even in the snow. She'd bum for spare change and if you gave her some, she'd make the sign of the cross, bless you and your mother even if your mother is in Heaven God rest her soul bless her. Tell her you had no change, and she'd go

Fine sir, fine sir, that's okay. You have nice day. NOW FUCK YOU AND YOUR FUCKING WHORE OF A MUTHAHHH!!



* The joke went, do you know why everything the governor attempts turns to shit? Cuz Mike do kakies. But of course we all voted for him over and over, cuz he was OUR complete fuck-up.

Matt Cavanaugh
.
.
Posts: 15449
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:38 pm
Contact:

Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#2130

Post by Matt Cavanaugh »

Back when SNL still had the balls to make fun of everybody:



John D
.
.
Posts: 5966
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:23 am
Location: Detroit, MI. USA

Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#2132

Post by John D »

Fuck Fauci.


Matt Cavanaugh
.
.
Posts: 15449
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:38 pm
Contact:

Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#2133

Post by Matt Cavanaugh »

Lauren Boebert trolls both AOC and Biden with one dress:

boebooty.jpeg
(43.06 KiB) Downloaded 133 times

Service Dog
.
.
Posts: 8652
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:52 pm

Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#2134

Post by Service Dog »


Matt Cavanaugh
.
.
Posts: 15449
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:38 pm
Contact:

Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#2135

Post by Matt Cavanaugh »

This is a guy who's been talking out of his ass his entire career.

Now, it's just sharts.

Service Dog
.
.
Posts: 8652
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:52 pm

Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#2136

Post by Service Dog »




This week's promotional event gig -- turned-out alright.

I'm left with a residual buzzing skull-- from all the hapless female 'energy'. But none of the women could figure-out how to open the Citroen van's suicide doors, so the cab was my own personal dog crate. I never got tired of the no frills instruments & interior-- punctuated with buttery nice-smelling leather seats. I peeked under the doghouse at the 4-cyl. 1200 cc motor. I read wikipedia about the 1947-1981 production history of the vehicle, and chatted with all the older european guys-- who stopped to smile at the thing,

A social dynamic-- which existed previously in my work-- was at the forefront this time: the Public Relations agency girls, and the handlers of the celebrity spokesmodel, and the 'brand ambassador' girls hired to give-away product samples... and most-of the middle-management women with lattes and laptops... behaved strangely when dealing with me-- the sole big hairy white guy in Carhartt-- doing menial labor. They couldn't relax & interact with me like an equal-- like a normal person. When I spoke-- they looked startled like 'OMG? why. is. he. talking. to. me. ?!!" And them speaking to me-- didn't happen: I was left out of the loop on all sorts of necessary information. Fortunately, my GF was also working-- so she acted as middleman, as if an alien translator was needed. One new boss chick-- is a regular at the bar where GF's sister bartends-- _very_ regular, ahem. That one was ok-- she was a classic aging Gen X'er-- still trying to look like Winona Ryder in 'Heathers'. She wore all black & huge sunglasses & smoked old-fashioned cigarettes right next to the 'health' event. And she immediately realized 'these bitches' weren't conveying necessary info to the guy who need to Do Stuff for them. But that was a female-problem too... because she & gf got along a little Too Well. This chick is 'new' and the bevy of prior chicks feel threatened by her arrival, so gf was being vaguely disloyal to the prior chicks (who have the power to call us with work/ or not.) This new chick might not work-out... she seems to hop from company to company/ not fitting in. She might be the wrong horse to bet on.

Back home today I ruminated on the male/female office politics. The chicks look at me & see a loser-- a flunkie. By leaving me out of the loop-- they confirm their low expectation: "this loser doesn't know what's going-on". On one level-- I don't care. I only deal with these cunts a few days every month or two. If they think I'm a loser-- that limits how much responsibility they put on me. Less stress for the same pay. And I'm partially-glad to be excluded from their endless chatter. But... in some larger sense... I think it's a dangerous trend. If the Eloi can't cooperate with the Morlocks-- the entire enterprise will be stunted, perhaps fatally.

On top of all-else... gf has developed a cough & her ears seem clogged. More than once, when I said her name-- to get her attention, she didn't hear. When I raised my voice-- she heard/ but reacted with hostility, as if I were barking angrily at her, requiring retaliation. She was crabby, bickering like an unhappy couple-- not good to do in front of co-workers & bosses.

This afternoon-- she prepared her invoice, then went out grocery shopping. Afterward, I prepared mine-- copying off of hers. I noticed the formatting of her invoice was garbled-- not impossible for the accountant to decipher. But not normal, either. Plus I saw typos. When she came home-- I mentioned the scrambled invoice to her-- and she snapped at me like I was attacking her. Rather than take the reasonable role-- I decided to be just as cunty.... I spoke calmly, but used terms like "dumb mistakes" and "you fucked-up this part". She doubled-down. So I intentionally did-so, too. This is out of character for me... the entire reason I did it, was to deviate from the well-worn script of our relationship... throw a curve ball... or a Hail Mary. Didn't work. Her gambit was to accuse me of having a "BJL moment". BJL is a dude I used-to work with, in an all-male crating woodshop & trucking company. He was a tempermental bitch, back then. But, after years away, he returned to nyc & I got him work alongside me. He had grown paunchy & grey & bumbling. He was a 'nice guy' 'progressive' and 'feminist'-- but he was awkward around all these women. And his short-temper was full-on red-faced aneurysm, when the dumbass chicks acted like dumbass chicks... causing more work for him, or dangerous conditions, or just a rude cunty work environment. I had to stop hiring him. The problem is-- GF thinks BJL is a COMPLETE LOSER. So... comparing me to him is really playing with fire. Either I let that stand-- and be a doormat like BJL. Or I push-back... and... well... she & BJL were both kamikazi pilots playing chicken... when they used to clash. Neither would defer, for the greater peace. So-- fuck-- now I'm in that position.

I think that a large portion of the female population walks-around acting-out, they don't know how to 'hang'-- by any rules except their own. Guy Culture has been reduced from a necessary thing for them to interact-with... to a language they don't-think they need to learn.

I went out to drop off the laundry. Walked around... watched the police with another large-scale trap for motorcycles, scooters, & motorized bikes-- coming off the bridge from Brooklyn. Dozens of two-wheelers being confiscated. (Biden's stimulus package gives a $900 tax credit-- to buy the same electric scoot-scoots being confiscated here. Contradictory incentives & dis-incentives. Inconsistent enforcement.)

The impasse didn't thaw when I returned home. We barely spoke. Ate in silence. Avoided eye contact. Tomorrow we're at the fish market. The sea captain & his wife have been bickering lately... unseemly... a cautionary example. Next week we planned to go back to the cabin upstate. That could be unpleasant. GF is sometimes stoic... per her gangster & restaurant-worker upbringing. And sometimes that stoic shit is just an easy-to-read pokerface... (not) concealing schoolgirl mentality & chicken-pecking.

I recently heard an eccentric amateur historian-- a rightwinger outside any mainstream denomination-- who sounded like mild-mannered George Will channeling Colonel Kurtz. He dates the moment where The West went wrong... not to the current Woke craze, or to Progressives, or to Abe Lincoln suspending habeus corpus during the Civil War. He thinks The Enlightenment itself was the fall-from-grace! Before-that... everybody in society had to have a job, a productive role-- or be marginalized & outcast. The Enlightenment created wealth & opportunity for all sorts of freeloader grifts: being a philosopher (bullshit artist), or rent-seeking. This dude doesn't want to return to the Iron Age... he's not Kaczynski. But he knows a high-tech future creates opportunities to avoid Honest Work. He says, "I don't know why society has become so hyper-feminized. Even in places like Hungary, which isn't hyper-feminized, there's too much fearful emphasis on 'security'/ at the expense of other values. Maybe because the elderly population is bigger and more powerful.' Maybe so.

That resonated in my head all week.

Lsuoma
Fascist Tit
Posts: 11692
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:58 pm
Location: Punggye-ri

Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#2137

Post by Lsuoma »

I see Aaron Rodgers of the Green Bay Fudge Packers is throwing a Freddo because he was caught lying about his vaccination status.

https://www.seattletimes.com/sports/aar ... on-status/

Service Dog
.
.
Posts: 8652
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:52 pm

Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#2138

Post by Service Dog »

Lsuoma wrote: I see Aaron Rodgers of the Green Bay Fudge Packers is throwing a Freddo because he was caught lying about his vaccination status.

https://www.seattletimes.com/sports/aar ... on-status/
That's an odd characterization of the story. Or maybe 'throwing a Freddo' is some variety of slang unknown to me, and you're making complete sense.

As for 'caught lying'... ??? His private medical information was leaked by the NFL which was supposed to keep it secure & private.

At least your link reports the story in depth...


Rodgers responded to a reporter’s question in August about his vaccination status by saying he was “immunized.” At the start of a nearly 20-minute opening statement Friday during an appearance that lasted nearly an hour, Rodgers said he didn’t lie about his status.

“It wasn’t some sort of ruse or a lie,” he said, appearing to read from prepared remarks. “Had there been a follow-up to my statement that I’ve been immunized, I would have . . . said: ‘Look, I’m not some sort of anti-vax flat-Earther. I’m somebody who’s a critical thinker.’ You guys know me. I march to the beat of my own drum.

“I believe strongly in bodily autonomy and the ability to make choices for your body, not to have to acquiesce to some woke culture or crazed group of individuals who say you have to do something. Health is not a one-size-fits-all for everybody. And for me, it involved a lot of study in the offseason. . . . I put a lot of time and energy researching this and met with a lot of people to get the most information about the vaccines before I made my decision.”

Rodgers said he could not get the Moderna or Pfizer shots because he has an allergy to an ingredient in the mRNA vaccines made by those companies. Rodgers did not identify the specific allergy.

His only option, he said, was the vaccine created by Johnson & Johnson, but he “had heard of multiple people who had had adverse events around getting the J&J . . . physical abnormalities around getting the J&J shot. And then, in mid-April, the J&J shot got pulled for clotting issues. So the J&J shot was not even an option at that point.”

The Johnson & Johnson vaccine went back on the market within days because regulators determined its benefits outweigh its risks.

After “talking to a lot of medical individuals and professionals,” Rodgers said, he “found an immunization protocol that he could go through to best protect myself” that didn’t involve getting one of the three available vaccines. He said later that he also had consulted with podcaster Joe Rogan, his “now good friend” who said he treated his own covid bout with ivermectin, an anti-parasitic that the Food and Drug Administration has said is not an effective treatment for the disease. Rodgers said he also had taken ivermectin, which can only be obtained with a prescription.

More on the COVID-19 pandemic
Pfizer says COVID-19 pill cut hospital, death risk by 90%
Study: Vaccine effectiveness ebbs over time but they still protect against death
Vaccine refusals in intelligence agencies raise GOP concerns
How to look for kids’ COVID vaccine appointments in Washington state
Full coverage of the coronavirus here and around the world

“I’m thankful for people like Joe stepping up and using his voice,” Rodgers said.

Rodgers said he petitioned the Packers and the NFL during the preseason to accept this alternate protocol – he “gathered over 500 pages of research on the efficacy of immunizations,” he said – but said he realized he would not win his argument when one of the NFL’s doctors told him “it was impossible for a vaccinated person to get covid or spread covid . . . which we know now that that information is totally false.” Rodgers later decried that the league did not offer any opportunity to consider “alternative medicines.”

According to a person familiar with the league’s handling of the matter, no doctor for the NFL or any of the infectious-disease consultants utilized by the league and the NFL Players Association communicated with Rodgers during the process. In August, according to that person, a member of the Packers’ medical staff inquired to the NFLPA on Rodgers’s behalf whether an alternative homeopathic treatment could lead to a player being regarded as the equivalent of vaccinated under the protocols.

The NFLPA shared the Packers’ request, along with materials provided by Rodgers, to Allen Sills, the NFL’s chief medical officer, and the infectious-disease consultants. A review concluded there was insufficient scientific data to support the petition, that person said, and the NFLPA indicated that it would inform Rodgers of the decision.

Unvaccinated NFL players face stricter restrictions compared with vaccinated players and are tested for the coronavirus daily, and Rodgers said Friday that he had been following those rules and that the Packers knew he was not vaccinated. He said his decision not to take one of the accepted vaccinations “was what’s best for my body. … My medical team advised me that the danger of me having an adverse event was greater than the risk of getting COVID and recovering. So I made a decision in the best interest of my body.”

Rodgers added that he was worried about the vaccines’ effect on his chances to father children, though the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention advises that there is no evidence that coronavirus vaccines cause fertility problems.

Regarding the NFL’s coronavirus policies, Rodgers said, “they were not based on science at all, they’re based purely on trying to out and shame people” and making unvaccinated people “feel like the most dangerous people in society.” He questioned why the league forces people to wear masks around vaccinated people and why unvaccinated people need to be tested every day when vaccinated people can spread the virus as well.

“The great MLK said, ‘You have a moral obligation to object to unjust rules and rules that make no sense,’ ” Rodgers said, paraphrasing the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.

Rogers lashed out at reporters who he said “were trying to shame and out and cancel all us unvaccinated people, call us selfish: ‘You’re selfish for making a decision that’s in the best interest of your body.’ … I go back to two questions for this woke mob: Number one, if the vaccine is so great, then how come so many people are getting COVID and spreading COVID and unfortunately dying of COVID? … For the media out there taking shots at me: Like, you don’t know my story. Now you do. So quit lying about it.”

The NFL said Thursday that it, along with the NFLPA, would review the case to determine whether any protocol violations occurred. The NFL would consider fines for the Packers and Rodgers if protocol violations are established, but Rodgers would not face the possibility of suspension, a person with knowledge of the matter said Thursday night. Rodgers must remain in isolation for 10 days and can rejoin the Packers at that point if he is symptom-free.


--

I may be biased in toward Rogers...
https://slymepit.com/phpbb/viewtopic.ph ... rs#p440743

Brive1987
.
.
Posts: 17791
Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:16 am

Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#2139

Post by Brive1987 »


John D
.
.
Posts: 5966
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:23 am
Location: Detroit, MI. USA

Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#2140

Post by John D »

Service Dog wrote: The impasse didn't thaw when I returned home. We barely spoke. Ate in silence. Avoided eye contact. Tomorrow we're at the fish market. The sea captain & his wife have been bickering lately... unseemly... a cautionary example. Next week we planned to go back to the cabin upstate. That could be unpleasant. GF is sometimes stoic... per her gangster & restaurant-worker upbringing. And sometimes that stoic shit is just an easy-to-read pokerface... (not) concealing schoolgirl mentality & chicken-pecking.
Our marriage counselor has taken to giving us practical advice. Her advice to my wife is "Stop picking on John." She made my wife repeat it.... she said "Sandy.... what are you going to do?" and my wife says "Stop picking on John."

Then she said... "Now John, Sandy thinks you don't listen to her and you are hard to get along with. Do you think you can listen and behave?" And I said yes... and I wrote those two words on a post-it... and stuck it on the door. "Listen...Behave".

And she said.... "John, it's not like you are being inauthentic... right?" And I said "Of course this means I am being inauthentic. How could it be otherwise. Some people don't care how I feel or what I think. I have decided to live in harmony with these people. It is a choice."

Matt Cavanaugh
.
.
Posts: 15449
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:38 pm
Contact:

Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#2141

Post by Matt Cavanaugh »

Brive1987 wrote:
Those Impossible burgers and such are the most highly-processed foodstuffs imaginable. No discussion on the costs, both environmental and healthwise, on that. They're pushing bug-based food, too, which would also require heavy processing. We're not talking free range cricket filets.

Hadn't thought of it the way this tweet lays it out, but it does sound like feeding the entire planet with Soylent crackers.

Matt Cavanaugh
.
.
Posts: 15449
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:38 pm
Contact:

Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#2142

Post by Matt Cavanaugh »

John D wrote: Our marriage counselor has taken to giving us practical advice.
The shrink* I went to with my schizo wife did the same, so I take that as a bad sign. Like palliative hospice care for a moribund marriage.

Sorry to be a downer, but I do endorse your zenlike approach.



* He was a real piece of work himself. Did the separate sessions as well. Should've 5150'd my ex in hers, especially as she was 5150'd soon after by another shrink. I went for my session it was the end of the day in winter in Boston so dark and dreary. His office was decorated entirely in dog diarrhea brown. A soothing color supposedly but to me it was just depressing dog diarrhea brown. Sink down into a massive, too-soft dog diarrhea brown arm chair. One lamp shedding low yellow light. Also supposedly soothing but just depressing to me.

All he wants to do it get me to admit I'm fucked up in some way, deep childhood trauma or something which was a complete fishing expedition as I had a wonderful upbringing. I just try to roll with the waves life hits me with I say. But you seem depressed. Well, my wife is a fucking lunatic who tried to stab me with a carving knife, so there's that. We're here to talk about you. It is a little dark in here. I get that light deprivation thing in winter. We can meet in the morning if you like. Your office will still be dog diarrhea brown in the daylight, right? Okay I probably didn't say that last one. What's REALLY depressing you right now? You mean, other than Game Six? Everybody in Boston is depressed right now.

Never went back to that unctuous creepy fucker. But at least for a few months, my wife helped clean the apartment and didn't try to stab me in the heart.

fafnir
.
.
Posts: 674
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2015 6:16 pm

Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#2143

Post by fafnir »

Service Dog wrote: I think that a large portion of the female population walks-around acting-out, they don't know how to 'hang'-- by any rules except their own. Guy Culture has been reduced from a necessary thing for them to interact-with... to a language they don't-think they need to learn.
It feels like this is a deep observation. A while back I was reading about a confrontation at a leftie debate back in the 60s. The old school leftie was cast out for getting heated and confrontational in the debate on the grounds that it was off-putting to and excluded women. Somehow a debate between two men needed to be conducted under female rules of engagement. This attack pretty much finished his side of the argument. I've seen it said before that the left set the null hypothesis. I wonder if the same isn't true of women?

Another book I've been reading lately is Rousseau's Confessions. Weird guy. I'd say cluster-B personality disorder for sure. He flits from the orbit of one wealthy patroness to the next causing unnecessary drama, and interpreting everybody else through an almost willfully paranoid emotional lense. There is something very feminine about him. He reminds me of the line in As Good As It Gets where Jack Nicholson's author character is asked how he writes women so well and replies, "I think of a man, and I take away reason and accountability". The cultural, progressive Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite side of the enlightenment seem to me to be a type of pathological female thought gaining a foothold in the culture. The claim of good intentions allow people to behave in the most wickedly chaos inducing ways without moral consequence.

John D
.
.
Posts: 5966
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:23 am
Location: Detroit, MI. USA

Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#2144

Post by John D »

and just pondering the two mother architypes from Karl Jung. The good mother and the smothering/controlling mother. The good mother is life bringing... and nurturing. The evil mother is controlling and keeps her children in an infantile state... just to get more control. The nanny government is the evil mother.... and she tricks the citizen into thinking she is the good mother.

Just a thought.

John D
.
.
Posts: 5966
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:23 am
Location: Detroit, MI. USA

Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#2145

Post by John D »

Matt Cavanaugh wrote:
John D wrote: Our marriage counselor has taken to giving us practical advice.
The shrink* I went to with my schizo wife did the same, so I take that as a bad sign. Like palliative hospice care for a moribund marriage.

Sorry to be a downer, but I do endorse your zenlike approach.
Yeah.... It's okay. I guess I have some kind of a map for my life. One of the key elements is to stay with my wife and for us to do as well as possible together. If my wife and I do not stay together a whole pile of shit happens. So, if we separate she will probably have a stroke, or some other kind of medical disaster within 6 months. I will be blamed for this event by my kids and many of my friends. I will be judged as not fulfilling my duty to her.

I am not super interested in rebuilding most of my friendships and having to patch up shit with my kids. I don't want my wife to suffer and I feel like I owe her for her dedication to our family.

We still have some fun together. It is worth working on. I don't see it as moribund. I do see it as "pragmatic".

Matt Cavanaugh
.
.
Posts: 15449
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:38 pm
Contact:

Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#2146

Post by Matt Cavanaugh »

John D wrote: We still have some fun together. It is worth working on. I don't see it as moribund. I do see it as "pragmatic".
Mine was unsalvageable in the long run. I guess I'm saying, when a marriage counselor focuses on the little tweaks, they're probably conceding that the big shit ain't getting fixed. Especially when one partner has major unresolved issues of their own.

But like Epictetus said: "If you're down with the status quo, roll with it."

Service Dog
.
.
Posts: 8652
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:52 pm

Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#2147

Post by Service Dog »

fafnir wrote: Rousseau
Rousseau's 'noble savage' is a fanciful notion-- similar to "Grizzly Man" Timothy Treadwell's opinions on bears.

But, I gotta admit a similarity: one hand is enlightenment-guy Rousseau decrying his own era/ in favor of a primitive eden.

on the other hand is the rightwing amateur historian I quoted above-- who says the enlightenment is where The West derailed.

--

The latter guy is a writer named George Haywood. (Not to be confused with a writer named George Hayduke. heh.)

This is his webpage. Looks pretty cool... https://theworthyhouse.com/

Steersman
.
.
Posts: 10933
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 8:58 pm
Contact:

Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#2148

Post by Steersman »

Matt Cavanaugh wrote:
John D wrote: We still have some fun together. It is worth working on. I don't see it as moribund. I do see it as "pragmatic".
Mine was unsalvageable in the long run. I guess I'm saying, when a marriage counselor focuses on the little tweaks, they're probably conceding that the big shit ain't getting fixed. Especially when one partner has major unresolved issues of their own.

But like Epictetus said: "If you're down with the status quo, roll with it."
Somewhat apropos of Epiceteus, a Socrates quote: ;)
By all means marry. If you get a good wife, you’ll be happy. If you get a bad one, you’ll become a philosopher.
https://www.forbes.com/quotes/8706/#:~: ... hilosopher.

Probably partly why I'm interested the philosophical aspects of the sex-gender "debates" ...

And, somewhat apropos of your earlier "schizo wife", I'm reminded of a bit from, I think, the beginning of True Lies where Schwarteneger's CIA buddy talks about his ex-wife leaving and taking everything from the apartment - including the icecube trays from the refrigerator. Now, that IS peeved - and "schizo" ...

But that reminds me of something else that you and John in particular were talking about, and about a video that Andrew had posted here sometime ago from a rather remarkably cogent and quite brilliant black comedian, Reginald D. Hunter:



Don't remember all the details, but in the section at the time stamp, he's saying something about how there's an unspoken rule that for the happiness of a man's relationship with his wife or girlfriend - and his access to nooky - that "you're supposed to keep your woman in a perpetual state of fantasy - about her age, her weight, the size of her ass ..." Or, in particular, whether she still qualifies as a female and a woman once she hits menopause ... Probably why "Hunny Bunny" - among many other women - wound up blocking me on Twitter - "not amused", I guess.

I guess we all tend to appreciate that which flatters our vanities - "vanity, vanity, all is vanity saith the Preacher" (Ecclesiastes 1-12) - and tend to react "badly" when disabused of our illusions.

Partly why I've frequently touted Albee's "Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?", the theme of which is the dichotomy between reality and illusion, particularly in the context of marriages in general:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who%27s_A ... %3F#Themes

The upshot there being that the husband was willing to play along with the wife's fantasy about a fictional child as long as it was private, but that he finally had to disabuse her of that fantasy once she tried to take it public, when it finally conflicted with public "reality".

And largely why I've used it to underline the theme - Reality and Illusion - that more or less undergirds and motivates the sex-gender "debates":



I guess at some point, we all have to decide which is more important.

fafnir
.
.
Posts: 674
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2015 6:16 pm

Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#2149

Post by fafnir »

I saw Les Misérables in London tonight for the first time in 20 years. I've got children now, and the world has changed. It struck me very differently.

The Covid measures were funny, I don't remember any questions when I booked the tickets. When we got there they were all "Papiere bitte". Mrs Fafnir asked what happened if we didn't have our papers. You just had to sign something promising you didn't think you were riddled with covid. They gave us a scrap of paper with a green tick on. We moved two meters forward to a man who made sure we had our scraps of paper with green ticks. A few meters further a woman took our green ticks so our germs could be returned to the front of the line to be passed on to new patrons.

I think the big thing was seeing Javert in a new light. I asked myself, is he wrong? Sure Jean Valjean and Fantine are saints, but saints are in short supply and the world cannot be organised around them. Who is to maintain order in a world of conmen, cutthroats and prostitutes? Society cannot hold together if you treat them all like potential saints who the next act of forgiveness may save. As Javert puts it at his suicide, he is giving way to "a world that cannot hold". The world of Jean Valjean cannot hold. It is entirely dependent on people acting like selfless saints.

I think the flip side of Jean Valjean is Conrad's Lord Jim. There is something wilful and uncompromising about Valjean. He lets Javert go, who presumably will betray the people who trusted Valjean. He tells Javert his address, that could easily result in the arrest, and presumably execution, of his adopted daughters true love. Towards the beginning Valjean abandons a factory where he keeps 400 workers from the poor house and a town that he has made prosperous to chase down the child of a prostitute he feels he owes a debt to. There is something strangely selfish about Valjean that you absolutely see in Javert. In Lord Jim you see these consequences play out.

Another thought that occured to me during the performance. I think it was Service Dog who mentioned the oft repeated claim that the enlightenment was the point where things went off the rails. I don't quite agree for two reasons.
1. I think there are a lot of ideas with long histories that are coming together. Some of them like liberte and egalite, as well as "reason" clearly are heavily involved in the enlightenment.... but I don't think all of the ideas that make up the current crisis come from there. There are a lot of assumptions around the rise of the management class that seem to me to go back a long, long way. The idea of world government... or some kind of rules based technocratically administered peace is pre-enlightenment.
2. I think part of the problem is that we don't have proper wars any more. Europe kept healthy by countries having regular wars that either posed an existential threat, or life changing opportunities for plunder. For a time the US had that as well. Without that, I wonder if we aren't like the planes of Africa with all the predators removed. Everything starts to get devoured by stupid, fat herds of unfit herbivores. You need wars to remind women why they need men, and remind men what it means to be men.

What we have is a bunch of herbivores who have gotten too much power and have managed to convince the lions they should be vegetarians. The idea that this is sustainable is a fantasy. The lions can't go on like this for long, and the herbivores are going to run out of grass so it's not even good for them. Javert needs to come in, cull the herd and get the lions to man the fuck up.

Steersman
.
.
Posts: 10933
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 8:58 pm
Contact:

Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#2150

Post by Steersman »

fafnir wrote: I saw Les Misérables in London tonight for the first time in 20 years. I've got children now, and the world has changed. It struck me very differently.
Seem to recollect reading bits of it many years ago. Interesting tale and theme:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Les_Mis%C ... Characters

<snip>
fafnir wrote: I think the big thing was seeing Javert in a new light. I asked myself, is he wrong? Sure Jean Valjean and Fantine are saints, but saints are in short supply and the world cannot be organised around them.
Seems moot. As the Desiderata supposedly put it, "many people strive for high ideals".
fafnir wrote: Who is to maintain order in a world of conmen, cutthroats and prostitutes?
One of those is not like the others.

fafnir wrote: I think the flip side of Jean Valjean is Conrad's Lord Jim. .... In Lord Jim you see these consequences play out.
You may have something of a point there.
fafnir wrote: Another thought that occured to me during the performance. I think it was Service Dog who mentioned the oft repeated claim that the enlightenment was the point where things went off the rails. I don't quite agree for two reasons.
1. I think there are a lot of ideas with long histories that are coming together. Some of them like liberte and egalite, as well as "reason" clearly are heavily involved in the enlightenment.... but I don't think all of the ideas that make up the current crisis come from there. There are a lot of assumptions around the rise of the management class that seem to me to go back a long, long way. The idea of world government... or some kind of rules based technocratically administered peace is pre-enlightenment.
I'd probably agree with you that the claim that "the enlightenment was the point where things went off the rails" is untenable, although that "whore, Reason" - as Martin Luther put it - is something of a "mixed bag". However, the problems with it are often less to do with the rules of inference than with the starting premises: "Garbage In, Garbage Out". As Hume suggested, reason is more often than not "the slave of the passions": "'Tis not contrary to reason to prefer the destruction of the whole world to the scratching of my finger.”

Interesting article at The Chronicle - free signup - on Pinker's Disciplinary Drift:
Last month, Steven Pinker published Rationality: What It Is, Why It Seems Scarce, Why It Matters. The book represents yet another milestone in the author’s slide from world-renowned linguist and cognitive scientist to apologist for Enlightenment values. The last decade has seen Pinker banging the drum for human progress, arguing that global society has progressed beyond its violent past thanks to modern science and medicine, the advent of industrialization, and the rise of a culture more amenable to reason and empathy.
https://www.chronicle.com/article/steve ... nary-drift

But not sure that anyone should apologize for being an "apologist for Enlightenment values", though some are probably better than others.
fafnir wrote: 2. I think part of the problem is that we don't have proper wars any more. Europe kept healthy by countries having regular wars that either posed an existential threat, or life changing opportunities for plunder. For a time the US had that as well. Without that, I wonder if we aren't like the planes of Africa with all the predators removed. Everything starts to get devoured by stupid, fat herds of unfit herbivores. You need wars to remind women why they need men, and remind men what it means to be men.
I watched the 3rd (?) in the Dan Brown DaVinci Code trilogy titled Inferno the other night. The premise of the villain was that world needed another Black Plague to reduce the population by a half since the last one more or less precipitated the Enlightenment. Doesn't seem a particularly commendable or workable premise.
fafnir wrote: What we have is a bunch of herbivores who have gotten too much power and have managed to convince the lions they should be vegetarians. The idea that this is sustainable is a fantasy. The lions can't go on like this for long, and the herbivores are going to run out of grass so it's not even good for them. Javert needs to come in, cull the herd and get the lions to man the fuck up.
Probably too many of us have lost sight of how interconnected the world is, and how dependent we all are on various supply chains. Which Covid has arguably illustrated in some stark detail.

But your "lions and herbivores" and "need wars to remind women why they need men, and remind men what it means to be men" reminds me of a quote of Senator Josh Hawley that I'd seen on The Colbert Report on Friday. More detail from a Washington Post article:
Sen. Josh Hawley (R-Mo.) on Sunday night told fellow conservatives they must stop liberals from attacking masculinity and creating a nation of “idle men” who watch pornography and play video games instead of working and raising families.

Hawley delivered the speech on the “future of the American man” at the National Conservatism Conference in Orlando, calling for a return to traditional gender roles. He said liberals’ “attempt to give us a world beyond men” was part of their larger effort to “deconstruct America,” an endeavor that, according to the senator, includes critical race theory, economic socialism and doing away with the concept of gender altogether.

“The Left want to define traditional masculinity as toxic. They want to define the traditional masculine virtues — things like courage and independence and assertiveness — as a danger to society", Hawley said.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2 ... deo-games/

There is probably cause to question "critical race theory" and "economic socialism", though one might reasonably wonder whether he realizes that "gender" - the "masculinity" and "masculine virtues" and "gender roles" he referred to - is rather different from "sex" itself - i.e., our reproductive abilities.

But while there are, no doubt, some positives with both "masculine and feminine virtues" - basically personality types and stereotypes typical of men and women - it also seems clear that there are some negatives in both. Complex situation and system - not sure that overly simplistic models are adequate to deal with them.

MarcusAu
.
.
Posts: 7903
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2016 11:49 am
Location: Llareggub

Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#2151

Post by MarcusAu »

Steersman wrote: Probably why "Hunny Bunny" - among many other women - wound up blocking me on Twitter
How do you know that they were women?

Service Dog
.
.
Posts: 8652
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:52 pm

Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#2152

Post by Service Dog »

Steersman wrote: "you're supposed to keep your woman in a perpetual state of fantasy - about her age, her weight, the size of her ass ..." Or, in particular, whether she still qualifies as a female and a woman once she hits menopause ... Probably why "Hunny Bunny" - among many other women - wound up blocking me on Twitter
MarcusAu wrote:
How do you know that they were women?
Holy fuck that's hilarious. I thought stalemate was the best anyone could do against Steersman.
But, nope, Checkmate! by Marcus.


ThreeFlangedJavis
.
.
Posts: 2181
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:13 am

Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#2153

Post by ThreeFlangedJavis »

Baldwin might really be in trouble. From what I've heard, Baldwin was practicing his gunplay for an extended shootout when he wasted HH. There was no need to have rounds of any type in the gun. The armourer might get off relatively lightly if it is true that she was not present, which she technically was not required to be since the scene was not yet being shot, because she was engaged in the other role she was hired for. The assistant director seems to be the one who picked the gun up off the cart, so he may be in the shit. It may well be true that this kind of chaos is relatively common on indie film sets, especially with influential "maverick" actors involved, but sadly the movie pros who think that the law is guided by what is regarded as acceptable by the industry are probably going to be in for a reality check. Admittedly I don't know the law, but I suspect that how a gun ends up in someone's hand doesn't absolve them of responsibility for it's safe use. Baldwin will likely be upset that such lax standards failed to protect him from himself.


fafnir
.
.
Posts: 674
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2015 6:16 pm

Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#2154

Post by fafnir »

MarcusAu wrote:
Steersman wrote: Probably why "Hunny Bunny" - among many other women - wound up blocking me on Twitter
How do you know that they were women?
How do we know that there are women?

John D
.
.
Posts: 5966
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:23 am
Location: Detroit, MI. USA

Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#2155

Post by John D »

fafnir wrote: I saw Les Misérables in London tonight for the first time in 20 years. I've got children now, and the world has changed. It struck me very differently.
So... my favorite musical.... even though it may not really be a musical since it has no dancing (except the ballroom scene). So... maybe it is more like an operetta. In any case.

I think one main theme is that of forgiveness and redemption. The conflict between Valjean and Javert is the struggle between the law applied 100% strictly and the idea that someone should be forgiven for a mistake. People used to go to prison for the worst of reasons... bankruptcy for example. Javert needs to live in a world of perfect order as explained in the song "Stars". After chasing Valjean for years he finds that Valjean is an exceptionally virtuous man. Javert realizes he has waisted his life in pursuit of the perfect and finds his view of perfection was an illusion. He couldn't hold his view of the perfect in his head while simultaneously understanding his view is a fantasy.

I don't think the story suggests the law is not needed. It does push the idea that the law is not perfect... and that the punishment should fit the crime.

Also, the case of the Thénardiers show that the law cannot always punish or capture people effectively. They con and rob and abuse their way into material comfort.

But... in the end we have to decide if we want to live like Valjean or if we want to live like the Thénardiers. Even though Valjean suffers, his behavior reaches for an ideal... an ideal that approaches living like Christ. So, you can live outside the law and still try to live as Christ would.... or you can live within the law and sin.

Valjean's seemingly "selfish" behavior does suggest that he is not a pragmatist. This is the whole point. He agonizes over what he should do. In the end he decides that he has to correct one of his sins. It was his sin of dismissing the plea of Fantine that he was personally responsible for. To correct this sin he had to rescue Cosette. Of all the people in his life, Valjean sees Fantine as being most like him... a virtuous person who is willing to sin in order to save another.

The story of the revolutionaries is a rich one as well. The revolutionaries actually do not help anyone in the end. They simply create death and destruction. What does this mean? One interpretation is that the perfect country will never exist. Perhaps it is suggesting that incremental change is better than revolution. It does give us a lot to think about. It is similar to the BLM movement. This movement is searching for an ideal, but all it did was cause destruction. And... how does this transform Marius? He escaped the revolution thanks to a rescue by Valjean. In the end he pursues the virtues of hearth and home.... love and beauty. Is this always the best pursuit? Is revolution also just an illusion?

Great show.... really great show. I have seen it four times and cry at least three times per show... that a total of 12 public crying events!

The movie was simultaneously great and terrible... haha. Hathaway was magnificent as was Redmain... making at least two crying events. In fact, I can watch the Redmain performance over and over. He performed the "Empty Chairs" song over and over... all day... until he was exhausted. Then he did a final take. This is the performance they kept. Fabulous. I liked Jackman but most people didn't. Crow was not the right choice... nor was the woman that played Eponine.

fafnir
.
.
Posts: 674
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2015 6:16 pm

Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#2156

Post by fafnir »

John D wrote:
fafnir wrote: I saw Les Misérables in London tonight for the first time in 20 years. I've got children now, and the world has changed. It struck me very differently.
So... my favorite musical.... even though it may not really be a musical since it has no dancing (except the ballroom scene). So... maybe it is more like an operetta. In any case.
Are you much into Sondheim? I think there is a lot of similarity in terms of complex structure and emotional depth. Going into Opera though, La Boheme get's me in the same way. I saw that with my wife a couple of years ago and I still feel the emotion.
John D wrote: I think one main theme is that of forgiveness and redemption. The conflict between Valjean and Javert is the struggle between the law applied 100% strictly and the idea that someone should be forgiven for a mistake. People used to go to prison for the worst of reasons... bankruptcy for example. Javert needs to live in a world of perfect order as explained in the song "Stars". After chasing Valjean for years he finds that Valjean is an exceptionally virtuous man. Javert realizes he has waisted his life in pursuit of the perfect and finds his view of perfection was an illusion. He couldn't hold his view of the perfect in his head while simultaneously understanding his view is a fantasy.
I think though that if you look at the wider world of 18th Century Paris, it needs somebody like Javert to keep order. All totalising moral systems are based on some type of lie or fantasy, both Valjean's as well as Javert's. To some degree both are needed in a functional society. Javert to provide the order that Valjean can subvert.

Wasn't there a quote earlier about Jung and mother architypes. I wonder if in Javert and Valjean we don't have something similar going on for the role of father.
John D wrote: I don't think the story suggests the law is not needed. It does push the idea that the law is not perfect... and that the punishment should fit the crime.
Well, the story is a liberal one.... so of course that is the message. The question for me is, is it true? Could you have run early 19th Century Paris on the basis of a slap on the wrist for stealing a loaf of bread? Isn't there a line in the Life of Brian "What have the Roman's done for us?" bit where somebody says something like "Well, there's law and order. Let's face it, who but the Romans could keep order in a place like this. Who but Javert....
John D wrote: lso, the case of the Thénardiers show that the law cannot always punish or capture people effectively. They con and rob and abuse their way into material comfort.
Of course, but they fear Javert and are limited by his unforgiving hardness, where as they will eternally take advantage of forgiveness and charity.
John D wrote: But... in the end we have to decide if we want to live like Valjean or if we want to live like the Thénardiers.
Why are those the choices? Valean abandones his factory and the hundreds of workers who supposedly all depend on him to persue his flagilating saintly path. He has Cossette grow up without friends. He tells Javert where he is living which could easily lead to Marius being discovered and executed. He then leaves at the end to martyr himself. There is something as inflexible and inhuman in him as there is in Javert. At least Javert brings order and can be relied upon. Valjean might desert you or release the prisoner he was guarding if he takes it into his head that that would be the more self sacrificing course of action.
John D wrote: Even though Valjean suffers, his behavior reaches for an ideal... an ideal that approaches living like Christ.
Does it though? It works out and there are no consequences in the story, but unless he literally is Christ, then his actions have consequences for those around him. What happened to those 400 workers who all looked to him? How many of them have fallen into prostitution like Fantine because he decided acting like Christ was more important than providing for them. Honestly, if you haven't read it.... read Lord Jim. It's Conrad's version of this story where people pay the price for somebody wanting to heroicly sacrifice themself.
John D wrote: So, you can live outside the law and still try to live as Christ would.... or you can live within the law and sin.
It feels like there is something close to a sin of pride going on in wanting to live as Christ. It feels like one must necessarily care more about the state of ones own soul than the wellbeing of those around you.
John D wrote: Valjean's seemingly "selfish" behavior does suggest that he is not a pragmatist. This is the whole point. He agonizes over what he should do. In the end he decides that he has to correct one of his sins. It was his sin of dismissing the plea of Fantine that he was personally responsible for. To correct this sin he had to rescue Cosette. Of all the people in his life, Valjean sees Fantine as being most like him... a virtuous person who is willing to sin in order to save another.
Is Valjean willing to sin in order to save others? I'm thinking my way through the story and I can't think of an occasion where he does this. I can think of occasions where he puts others at risk to avoid sinning.
John D wrote: The story of the revolutionaries is a rich one as well. The revolutionaries actually do not help anyone in the end. They simply create death and destruction. What does this mean? One interpretation is that the perfect country will never exist. Perhaps it is suggesting that incremental change is better than revolution. It does give us a lot to think about.
The people don't rise. They are fighting for a revolution that the people aren't actually hungering for. Like Valjean, on the surface they are sacrificing themselves for others.... but are they? If the people raen't clamoring for the revolution, whose revolution is it? Aren't they actually fixated on an ideal just as much as Javert and Valjean?
John D wrote: It is similar to the BLM movement. This movement is searching for an ideal, but all it did was cause destruction. And... how does this transform Marius? He escaped the revolution thanks to a rescue by Valjean. In the end he pursues the virtues of hearth and home.... love and beauty. Is this always the best pursuit? Is revolution also just an illusion?
The characters who seem genuinely good to me in Les Miserables are Fantine and Eponine. As the song goes.... to love another person is to see the face of God. Both of them are motivated by love and sacrifice themselves without putting other people at risk. They want what is best for the object of their love and, Fantine in particular, is willing to sacrifice her soul for her daughter. Is Valjean willing to do this?

Having singled out Fantine and Eponine as sacrificing themselves in a different way to Valjean. It occures to me that all the ideologically motivated characters are men. I guess that isn't historically much of a surprise, but if we are mapping out different models of transcendent goodness, then I think there is maybe a difference between the sexes.
John D wrote: Great show.... really great show. I have seen it four times and cry at least three times per show... that a total of 12 public crying events!
Likewise. I probably cry more than three times though. It's only gotten worse as I've gotten older. I was a clueless 14 year old when I first saw it and knew nothing.
John D wrote: The movie was simultaneously great and terrible... haha. Hathaway was magnificent as was Redmain... making at least two crying events.
I am alergic to Redmain and haven't watched the movie. I do watch the two big Hathaway numbers quite often though and choke up every time.
John D wrote: In fact, I can watch the Redmain performance over and over. He performed the "Empty Chairs" song over and over... all day... until he was exhausted. Then he did a final take. This is the performance they kept. Fabulous. I liked Jackman but most people didn't. Crow was not the right choice... nor was the woman that played Eponine.
I may watch it now. I don't know. I'm afriad that seeing more of it will detract from the my isolated enjoyment of Ann Hathaway's performance.

fafnir
.
.
Posts: 674
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2015 6:16 pm

Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#2157

Post by fafnir »

fafnir wrote:
MarcusAu wrote:
Steersman wrote: Probably why "Hunny Bunny" - among many other women - wound up blocking me on Twitter
How do you know that they were women?
How do we know that there are women?
How do we know women?

John D
.
.
Posts: 5966
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:23 am
Location: Detroit, MI. USA

Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#2158

Post by John D »

fafnir wrote:
I may watch it now. I don't know. I'm afraid that seeing more of it will detract from the my isolated enjoyment of Ann Hathaway's performance.
Thanks for the detailed rebuttal. Really great and worth pondering.

A few points here... Valjean did sin to help others. He robbed in order to feed his sister and her child. This is the sin that lands him in prison for years. His own rebellion adds to his prison stay because he refused to submit to his "punishment". He ultimately sees himself as a sinner throughout his life and has an obsession to be forgiven.

It is not clear to me what happens to his business. Do we know that it will fail in his absence? I never thought of this. You make great points about how his decisions can be seen as selfish. I guess the root of a good story is that you can consider it many times and see it differently every time.

I love La Boheme. My favorite opera. So heartbreaking. Many tears. (why is Rent supposed to be based on La Boheme?.... and why is it such a terrible show?.... I fucking hate Rent... a show about a bunch of perverts who will not get a job... or make great art... or work... or create anything... and just get AIDS... fuck off. I love the satire of Rent in "Team America").

I really like a few Sondheim shows. Passion is my favorite. Most people don't know it. I watch it at least once a year.

Take a chance on Redmayne (I spelled it wrong before). Keep an open mind. I think that no one has done this better... but each to their own as well.



Also... If you have not seen Passion.... well... give it a try.


fafnir
.
.
Posts: 674
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2015 6:16 pm

Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#2159

Post by fafnir »

John D wrote:
Sun Nov 07, 2021 9:39 am
fafnir wrote:
I may watch it now. I don't know. I'm afraid that seeing more of it will detract from the my isolated enjoyment of Ann Hathaway's performance.
Thanks for the detailed rebuttal. Really great and worth pondering.

A few points here... Valjean did sin to help others. He robbed in order to feed his sister and her child. This is the sin that lands him in prison for years. His own rebellion adds to his prison stay because he refused to submit to his "punishment". He ultimately sees himself as a sinner throughout his life and has an obsession to be forgiven.
Indeed, but that's before his soul is bought for God by the Bishop Digne and he is off on his Christ mission. As sympathetic as his desire to be forgiven is, it's a selfish mission in a way that Fantine's and Eponine's aren't.
John D wrote:
Sun Nov 07, 2021 9:39 am
It is not clear to me what happens to his business. Do we know that it will fail in his absence? I never thought of this. You make great points about how his decisions can be seen as selfish. I guess the root of a good story is that you can consider it many times and see it differently every time.
He sings about his workers in Who Am I?
I am the master of hundreds of workers.
They all look to me.
Can I abandon them?
How would they live
If I am not free?

If I speak, I are condemned.
If I stay silent, I am damned!
He puts his soul above his workers.
John D wrote:
Sun Nov 07, 2021 9:39 am
I love La Boheme. My favorite opera. So heartbreaking. Many tears. (why is Rent supposed to be based on La Boheme?.... and why is it such a terrible show?.... I fucking hate Rent... a show about a bunch of perverts who will not get a job... or make great art... or work... or create anything... and just get AIDS... fuck off. I love the satire of Rent in "Team America").
I haven't seen Rent, but what you say is my understanding. Have you seen Moonstruck? That weaves La Boheme into the story.
John D wrote:
Sun Nov 07, 2021 9:39 am
I really like a few Sondheim shows. Passion is my favorite. Most people don't know it. I watch it at least once a year.
I am one of those people. I haven't seen nearly enough live, but what I've seen, I've loved. The bits in Sweeney Todd where he unknowingly kills his wife, and then realises what Mrs Lovett has done. I saw Follies, and I've seen Into The Woods a few times.
John D wrote:
Sun Nov 07, 2021 9:39 am
Take a chance on Redmayne (I spelled it wrong before). Keep an open mind. I think that no one has done this better... but each to their own as well.



Also... If you have not seen Passion.... well... give it a try.

Thanks for the tips, I will watch them. Incidentally, I'm sure you've seen this before.... but I've always liked this clip of Sondheim doing a masterclass with some musics students. His explanations about how to deliver the songs are wonderful.

John D
.
.
Posts: 5966
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:23 am
Location: Detroit, MI. USA

Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#2160

Post by John D »

fafnir wrote:
I am one of those people. I haven't seen nearly enough live, but what I've seen, I've loved. The bits in Sweeney Todd where he unknowingly kills his wife, and then realises what Mrs Lovett has done. I saw Follies, and I've seen Into The Woods a few times.
Sweeney Todd is also in my top ten list. I can't find the video version with the original cast. It included the amazing Angela Lansbury and unbeatable Len Cariou. Here is the soundtrack. There is a live video recording of this. So great.... I just can't find it on Youtube right now. I have seen Todd twice live. The more recent film with Jonny Depp has good moments... but... as usual... this film lacks the right chemistry and energy. It also leaves out some great songs. Here is the original cast recording. You can get most of the plot by just listening to the recording.

What are the top ten? : Sweeny Todd, Passion, Les Mis, West Side Story, Chicago, Oklahoma, Music Man, How to Succeeded in Business, Avenue Q, Oliver.... I guess. hmmmmm.


Locked