The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Continuation of the post at Abbie Smith's ERV blog (http://scienceblogs.com/erv/)

Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Postby Steersman » Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:17 pm  •  [Post 2861]

Badger3k wrote:Well, got off my ass and posted links to Zinna's piece on Manning at Firedoglake, their FB page, and the Save Bradley Manning FB page. Let's see what develops.

Throwing the fox in amongst the chickens? That’s always good for some entertainment …. :-)
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Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Postby welch » Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:28 pm  •  [Post 2862]

another lurker wrote:



I just watched the video. Way to go PZ, mischaracterizing everything that Thunderf00t said.


Of course he did. The loyal commentariat won't listen for themselves, so it's not like PZ has to worry about any real criticism.
If you're going to ignore me, then actually do it. But that does require some work. So you probably won't do it right.
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Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Postby Dick Strawkins » Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:29 pm  •  [Post 2863]

Gumby wrote:
This whole episode is an example of Welch's bit about how not to fight NMDs. You don't win by playing their games or posting at their blogs, you win by sitting back, pointing out their hypocrisy, lies, harassment, bullying and vileness, and laughing at them. That's the Pit's strength, and that's why this place has caught the eye of so many (even if they don't admit it).


Exactly.
It was a terrible idea to take them on directly by running a petition. To do that you are validating their stance, yet their official stance is a facade behind which they hide their real agenda - maintaining their monopoly of highly paid speaker positions in the US conference circuit.

Look, the basic problem we pitters face is that the word "feminism", though it has a very broad meaning, is widely interpreted by the general public as what we generally call equity or equality feminism (meaning equal rights for men and women, equal opportunity etc.)
To complain about "feminism" negatively affecting atheism and skepticism and you are off to a bad start. You are forced to go into a long winded explanation of the type of radical feminism you mean, all the while the FTB crowd are saying "but we are not rad fems, we are just ordinary feminists!"
It is really a winning strategy for them. I mean, look at them. Look at the incompetence, the obvious hypocrisy and the blatant bigotry, greed and viciousness.
Why are they still around?
Why is a dork like Watson getting invited all around the world to talk science?
It's because of their strategy to link a very fluid version of feminism to their cause.

Look at how Peezus defines their brand of feminism:

"Feminism: The radical notion that women are people"

It's a quote that pops up in various Feminism101 pieces you'll find scattered around the net and is originally attributed to the British journalist Rebecca West.

This is the idea that PZ Myers and the FTB crowd claim WE are opposing.

That women are people.

You know what ?
I don't oppose the idea that women are people.
What's more, I will take a guess and say that NOBODY that posts here thinks that women are not people.

In fact, going by PZ's description, the Slymepit is a feminist site!

I realize that PZ and his crew don't really think that feminism is simply believing "women are people".
It's clear to all that PZ really believes something more along the lines of:

Feminism is the radical notion that women are people, plus X.
X, itself, is composed of A plus B, plus C, plus D, which vary in definition and importance depending on the question at hand (rape culture, patriarchy, mansplaining, privilege, sex positivity, misogyny etc)

While I agree with Welsh that we should never take them on at their own game, but merely poke fun at their ridiculousness from the sidelines, I think it might be worthwhile to consider the similarities of the FTB side to a religious coalition.
They remind me of the religious right in the US, with Catholics allied with fundamentalist baptists. They have a cause that joins them but there are deep differences that will eventually tear them apart.
Despite the use of radfem language (mansplaining, privilege, rape culture etc) I don't think it is accurate to describe the FTB crowd as radfems.
They are mostly on the sex positive side of feminism, as opposed to the pornography negative side (nobody calls themself sex negative). I would place only Ophelia and Taslima on the pornography/sex worker negative side.
The rest of them use the language and arguments of the porn negative feminists (radfems) whenever it seem necessary, for the simple reason that the radfem philosophy of patriarchy theory is like the flood geology of feminism. It is unfalsifiable - and therefore it seems the perfect tool to use in an argument since, like flood geology, it has easy canned answers to every problem posed, except instead of "God did it!"" you get: "you just don't get it due to privilege!", "you are mansplaining!", "rape culture!", "it's misogyny!")

What would happen if the Slymepit announced it was a feminist* site?

*PZ Myers plagiarized definition. (Feminism is the radical notion that women are people"

I suspect that they would be forced into redefining what they really mean by feminism - and that is bound to lead to problems because most of them don't seem to know what the various schools of feminist thought believe.

As a quick aside, have a look at the radfem101 page - notice all the catchphrazes that have become commonplace in online atheism since Elevatorgate.
http://radicalhub.com/radfem-101/
PZ Myers: "Hypocrisy is a bitch, isn't it?"
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Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Postby codelette » Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:30 pm  •  [Post 2864]

I'm gonna leave this here: http://sjwsofokc.tumblr.com/
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Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Postby Tigzy » Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:37 pm  •  [Post 2865]

Jan Steen wrote:When child-raping scumbag and British TV icon Jimmy Saville died, a Catholic journalist, William Oddie, lamented the fact that not more attention had been given in the obituaries to the man’s Catholicism. PZ Myers in a new post uses this lament to take a dig at the Catholic Church. Now, I have no sympathy whatsoever for the Church or its apologists. But when PZ omits to mention that Oddie wrote his complaint shortly after Saville’s death in 2011, before it became publicly known what a vile person Saville had been, his piece becomes a dishonest hack job. As sceptics we should not oppose the religious with the same methods the less scrupulous among them use against us. We should be better than they are. In this respect, PZ is not doing the cause of atheism and scepticism a favour. He descends to the level of the worst religious apologists.

But what can you expect from a guy who continually tries to perpetuate the myth that the Slymepit is a den of misogynists, and who even tried to associate us with the women-hating mass murderer Marc Lepine? He has truly become nothing but a two-bit propagandist.

Image

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/01/13/what-was-that-about-his-catholicism-again/


Fuckin Hell - you're right. The link that Peezee offers is from Nov 2011 - way before all the ugly stuff about Savile's life came to light. Yet Peezee is phrasing Oddie's displeasure in the present tense:

William Oddie, the Catholic writer for the Catholic Herald who writes about Catholic concerns, is very irate. It seems a popular celebrity recently died, and the newspapers were fulsome in their obituaries, praising his charitable works and his lifelong generosity,


Peez is attempting to make a case here that Oddie's lament at the lack of publicity for Savile's Catholicism is being made in the face of what resulted from the Savile enquiry. Fuckin disgraceful!
"It should be noted that among the more alarming tendencies of those men who participate in train-spotters' groups, one will also find a complete disinclination to discuss feminism or women's issues."

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Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Postby another lurker » Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:43 pm  •  [Post 2866]

Dick Strawkins wrote:

Look, the basic problem we pitters face is that the word "feminism", though it has a very broad meaning, is widely interpreted by the general public as what we generally call equity or equality feminism (meaning equal rights for men and women, equal opportunity etc.)
To complain about "feminism" negatively affecting atheism and skepticism and you are off to a bad start. You are forced to go into a long winded explanation of the type of radical feminism you mean, all the while the FTB crowd are saying "but we are not rad fems, we are just ordinary feminists!"


This is how they suckered me in, originally. I thought they were talking about equity feminism, and that the pit was opposed to that. As someone who read the FTB forums casually, the 'radfem' theme was hard to spot.

What always stood out, however, was the vicious commentariat. I just could not understand how they could treat people so cruelly for 'just asking questions.' Over time it became clear that, in their minds, naive readers did not exist. NOPE. Everyone who showed any kind of curiosity and expressed that curiosity by 'just asking questions' was in actuality a secret misogynist troll from misogynist-conspirary-land!
I am glad to have been exposed to this point of view, and appreciate the time you took to express it.
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Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Postby 16bitheretic » Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:46 pm  •  [Post 2867]

I think the following quote, from PZ's echo-chamber, where a user is responding to someone mentioning Thunderf00t's latest video, says quite a bit about the low capacity for independent thought present at Pharyngula and other associated places:

johnmarley wrote:I didn’t watch more than 5 seconds of that. The scare-quotes told me all I need to know. Thanks.


Wow, refusal to even hear the opposing viewpoint. Surely that strengthens your own ability to critically analyze and come to your own conclusions, right? LOL!

You know, it's that sort of mindset that puzzles me. I've sat through entire speeches and lectures from all sorts of fools: race realists, actual misogynists arguing that Islam has a holy right to circumcise girls, creationists, 9/11 truthers, Obama birthers, chemtrail watchers, white separatists and fundamentalists of both Islam and Christianity, and never once did I find it to be a waste. Each time I listened to this sort of shit I learned something about rhetoric, about propaganda, about the fears of various peoples, about the origins of bad arguments and bad critical thinking and about new applications of skepticism. Just going "oohhh, he's a bad person! I must take someone else's word and ignore so I don't have to think for myself!" wouldn't have taught me a damn thing.

Even though some of my posts here heavily criticize feminism and compare it's methodology of thought and practice to that of religion, I still am willing to listen and even find things agreeable in some of the material produced by various feminist speakers and writers. Same with the MRA movement, which I had never even heard of until PZ, Skepchick and the other intellectual cowards in their circles kept tossing the acronym around as a boogeyman. I don't identify as MRA and I disagree with some of the MRA/MRM material I've encountered, but I also see that they make valid points too and am perfectly willing to engage in discussion and find points of both agreement and civil disagreement. The minute I shut out all dialogue and enter into a little protected bubble of perfect alignment with my own viewpoint I would be intellectually dead.

And if any of the FTB/A+/Skepchick followers, who gleefully chant "FREEZE PEACH!" like a bunch of sheep anytime their heroes delete or alter their critics or even prevent criticism in the first place by simply banning someone for posting here or other State Unapproved internet outlets, are reading this, keep in mind that those of us who left your circles and embraced places like this do so because of the lack of cowardice. The mindset behind the commenting in your little worlds is disgusting and counter-productive to development of actual thinking.
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Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Postby somedumbguy » Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:00 pm  •  [Post 2868]

Well, to followup:

Erika Jarvis interviewed Paul Elam and the interview was published at the Toronto Standard, a journalism start up. The interview was reasonably well done. It wasn't a puff piece, nor was it an attack piece.

Elam's discussion and a pdf of the interview can be found here:

http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/fe ... ka-jarvis/

Found there, because the article was removed from the Toronto Standard. A short conversation between Jarvis and Elam gave the impression that the Standard had removed the article. But apparently Elam misread or was misled by Jarvis.

Her email to Elam said

"Thanks, Paul. It was a really big piece for me."


The Standard did remove the article, but it was at Jarvis' request

http://s568.beta.photobucket.com/user/avoiceformen/media/Jarvis_zpsf47e9239.jpg.html

Why she requested is unknown, but in that earlier email she also said:

"The feminist backlash was…illuminating."


More can be read here:

http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/feminist-lies-feminism/to-gmp-re-erika-jarvis
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Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Postby Steersman » Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:09 pm  •  [Post 2869]

EdwardGemmer wrote:A thought I had this morning. I was kicked off of the Pharyngula website ostensibly because I was curious about why men commit crime. I had to jump through and acknowledge all of the "privilege" stuff that I do agree with, but my question was why do men, even though privileged, commit more crime. I was pretty clear that I represent a lot of men, especially young black men, and I am searching for some answers on that question. Then came the parade of insults and the banning. It occurs to me that these limousine liberals like PZ Myers have very little concern with actual victims of racism and sexism. If you are going to attack someone because they dare defend black people, I can only come to the conclusion that PZ Myers is in fact, a racist.

Don’t know how to what extent you’re familiar with evolutionary psychology, although I noticed that you quoted some statistics on the incarceration rates for, and incidences of violent crimes by, both men and women in a recent Pharyngula thread, but you might be interested in this somewhat introductory chapter by Stephen Pinker which elaborates on that in some detail. Some notatable passages:

[spoiler]
In any case, what we do know about the sexes does not call for any action that would penalize or constrain one sex or the other. Many psychological traits relevant to the public sphere, such as general intelligence, are the same on average for men and women, and virtually all psychological traits may be found in varying degrees among the members of each sex. No sex difference yet discovered applies to every last man compared with every last woman, so generalizations about a sex will always be untrue of many individuals.

But of course the minds of men and women are not identical, and recent reviews of sex differences have converged on some reliable differences. Sometimes the differences are large, with only slight overlap in the bell curves. Men have a much stronger taste for no-strings sex with multiple or anonymous partners, as we see in the almost all-male consumer base for prostitution and visual pornography. Men are far more likely to compete violently, sometimes lethally, with one another over stakes great and small (as in the recent case of a surgeon and an anesthesiologist who came to blows in the operating room while a patient lay on the table waiting to have her gall bladder removed). Among children, boys spend far more time practicing for violent conflict in the form of what psychologists genteelly call "rough-and-tumble play". The ability to manipulate three-dimensional objects and space in the mind also shows a large difference in favor of men.

With some other traits the differences are small on average but can be large at the extremes. That happens for two reasons. When two bell curves partly overlap, the farther out along the tail you go, the larger the discrepancies between the groups. For example, men on average are taller than women, and the discrepancy is greater for more extreme values. At a height of five foot ten, men outnumber women by a ratio of thirty to one; at a height of six feet, men outnumber women by a ratio of two thousand to one. Also, confirming an expectation from evolutionary psychology, for many traits the bell curve for males is flatter and wider than the curve for females. That is, there are proportionally more males at the extremes. Along the left tail of the curve, one finds that boys are far more likely to be dyslexic, learning disabled, attention deficient, emotionally disturbed, and mentally retarded (at least for some types of retardation). At the right tail, one finds that in a sample of talented students who score above 700 (out of 800) on the mathematics section of the Scholastic Assessment Test, boys outnumber girls by thirteen to one, even though the scores of boys and girls are similar within the bulk of the curve.
[/spoiler]
So, statisticially speaking, men are generally better – “at the right tail” of the bell curve for males – at mathematics, but generally worse – “at the left tail” – in terms of being “dyslexic, learning disabled, … and mentally retarded”. Now, definitely a moot question to what extent all of those attributes are genetically determined and influenced or simply culturally “constructed”, but it seems rather a stretch to insist – as many “gender feminists” apparently do, although many other feminists insist that the former are as rare as hen’s teeth – that genetics doesn’t play a significant role. And decidedly problematic that so many, mostly feminists, have a positive aversion, if not a mind-destroying fear – to giving any thought to that hypothesis. Can’t fix the problem if we refuse to face the facts.

Although another related problem is, I think and as Pinker suggests, the difficulty in comparing statistical populations where there are significant degrees of overlap – comparing apples and oranges is child’s play in comparison – which leads to all sorts of problematic stereotyping. Maybe someone with a better handle on the concepts might want to put together a tutorial on the topic … hint, hint.
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Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Postby Keating » Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:12 pm  •  [Post 2870]

ERV wrote:And once again, Im pretty sure hes dating Watson. I might be wrong, but my brain is reminding me of this.


No, he's absolutely not. I don't think he ever has either. He did recently get married though. His essays on Atheism, when he previously went by the nym "Ebon", are a pretty good examination of the rational reasons to be an atheist.

I used to enjoy his blog before he moved to Big Think, as he did allow wide debate in comments. Some relevant posts (by random clicking) include this one on free speech and this one on thirsting for persecution. Although now that I go back and look, I realise that the posts that I enjoyed most were actually mostly be guest bloggers. Go figure. (For example, this one.)
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Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Postby codelette » Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:20 pm  •  [Post 2871]

Dick Strawkins wrote:"Feminism: The radical notion that women are people"

It's a quote that pops up in various Feminism101 pieces you'll find scattered around the net and is originally attributed to the British journalist Rebecca West.

This is the idea that PZ Myers and the FTB crowd claim WE are opposing.

That women are people.

You know what ?
I don't oppose the idea that women are people.
What's more, I will take a guess and say that NOBODY that posts here thinks that women are not people.



I'm a woman. I'm pretty sure I am people. I am also NOT a feminist, nor a MRA.
What's misogynistic about that?
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Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Postby DownThunder » Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:29 pm  •  [Post 2872]

A simple yet effective rhetorical device. Far too simple minded. That sentence does not encompass nor explain typical feminist behaviour, nor even a fraction of it.

Feminism: The radical notion that women shouldn't be melted down into glue. For fun.

Try it at home kids. Endless fun and floored argumentation.
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Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Postby KacyRay » Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:32 pm  •  [Post 2873]

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Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Postby KarlVonMox » Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:34 pm  •  [Post 2874]

another lurker wrote:



I just watched the video. Way to go PZ, mischaracterizing everything that Thunderf00t said.


Not surprising in the slightest. Indeed, I have come to expect nothing but intellectual dishonesty from him.
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Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Postby Skep tickle » Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:45 pm  •  [Post 2875]

PZ in "Did you have to remind me?" post on his blog today says (in part; bolding added by me):
PZ wrote:Yep, classes start for me tomorrow at 8am. ... I also get to teach my fave class, developmental biology. ... I’ll also be compelling my students to set up blogs and write about science publicly, so I’ll occasionally be linking to a lot of student work.

This seems unwise. Imagine the comment threads on his college students' blogs once the likes of Caine, Josh Spokesgay, etc follow PZ's links, at some point get triggered, & start unloading both barrels.

Also, potential financial conflict of interest, given that he gets paid for traffic at FtB. Presumably his students' work will be hosted at another site, but seems iffy if there were trackbacks or any other route by which his directing traffic from Pharyngula to the students' site might result in increased traffic back to Pharyngula.
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Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Postby Pitchguest » Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:48 pm  •  [Post 2876]

You know, it's funny to me that modern feminists, the so-called "third wave" of feminism, may have actually ruined it for themselves when they appropriated the theories of the radical second wave and decided to not just co-opt, but also trump them up; escalate them. There is no denying that feminism - the ideology - would be far less intimidating if it weren't for their conspiring about "rape culture", "the patriarchy", "male privilege" and so forth, or the notion that somehow women are being oppressed and demonised. Pretty much commiting an own goal in terms of ideological purity. For instance, "rape culture" was an idea manufactured mainly in the US in the mid 70's-early 80's, by radical feminists of the second wave (like Gloria Steinem, Andrea Dworkin, et al, although merely spokespersons for the concept and not its originators) and then quickly went off the grid - only to be seen again in the late 20th-early 21st century, marketed once again by radical feminists of the new generation.

It's therefore no surprise to me that the concept of "rape culture" is still being rejected to this day, despite the fact that Melissa McEwan of Shakesville wrote her own Rape Culture 101 to inform people about it, and the same thing applies to "the patriarchy" and the rest of the nonsense-filled diatribes and rhetoric they continually spew. If more feminists were like Miranda Celeste Hale or Ana Kasparian, then it wouldn't even be an issue. Sex-positive, strong women who take no shit from anyone - man or woman - whose psyche are not made out of porcelain to be handled with care at all times. Likewise if more religious people were more tolerant and not eager to intrude into other people's lives, then they would merely be a blip on the radar.
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Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Postby Maximus » Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:49 pm  •  [Post 2877]

codelette wrote:
Dick Strawkins wrote:"Feminism: The radical notion that women are people"

It's a quote that pops up in various Feminism101 pieces you'll find scattered around the net and is originally attributed to the British journalist Rebecca West.

This is the idea that PZ Myers and the FTB crowd claim WE are opposing.

That women are people.

You know what ?
I don't oppose the idea that women are people.
What's more, I will take a guess and say that NOBODY that posts here thinks that women are not people.



I'm a woman. I'm pretty sure I am people. I am also NOT a feminist, nor a MRA.
What's misogynistic about that?


Oh silly codelette, you've just "internalized misogynistic thought"! At least that was what I was told by the baboons when I pointed out that women in the video game industry disagreed with Anita Sarkizian(spelling ?). Patriarchy theory has an easy answer for everything! Wish we had a cool conspiracy theory :(
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Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Postby another lurker » Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:54 pm  •  [Post 2878]

Maximus wrote:
codelette wrote:
Dick Strawkins wrote:"Feminism: The radical notion that women are people"

It's a quote that pops up in various Feminism101 pieces you'll find scattered around the net and is originally attributed to the British journalist Rebecca West.

This is the idea that PZ Myers and the FTB crowd claim WE are opposing.

That women are people.

You know what ?
I don't oppose the idea that women are people.
What's more, I will take a guess and say that NOBODY that posts here thinks that women are not people.



I'm a woman. I'm pretty sure I am people. I am also NOT a feminist, nor a MRA.
What's misogynistic about that?


Oh silly codelette, you've just "internalized misogynistic thought"! At least that was what I was told by the baboons when I pointed out that women in the video game industry disagreed with Anita Sarkizian(spelling ?). Patriarchy theory has an easy answer for everything! Wish we had a cool conspiracy theory :(


When I play video games with my boyfriend I always make him play a supersexy female character - and we run around the world dressing and acting like total sluts.

Does that make me a misogynist?

P.S. We played female night elves in WoW and we were always 'complimenting' one another on how 'hot' we looked b/c the night elves were built from the ground up to be pure sex.
I am glad to have been exposed to this point of view, and appreciate the time you took to express it.
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Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Postby AbsurdWalls » Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:56 pm  •  [Post 2879]

Skep tickle wrote:PZ in "Did you have to remind me?" post on his blog today says (in part; bolding added by me):
PZ wrote:Yep, classes start for me tomorrow at 8am. ... I also get to teach my fave class, developmental biology. ... I’ll also be compelling my students to set up blogs and write about science publicly, so I’ll occasionally be linking to a lot of student work.

This seems unwise. Imagine the comment threads on his college students' blogs once the likes of Caine, Josh Spokesgay, etc follow PZ's links, at some point get triggered, & start unloading both barrels.

Also, potential financial conflict of interest, given that he gets paid for traffic at FtB. Presumably his students' work will be hosted at another site, but seems iffy if there were trackbacks or any other route by which his directing traffic from Pharyngula to the students' site might result in increased traffic back to Pharyngula.


Conflict of interest? I wonder whether academics who set textbooks that they themselves wrote have to worry about conflict of interest.
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Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Postby Maximus » Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:57 pm  •  [Post 2880]

another lurker wrote:
Maximus wrote:
codelette wrote:
Dick Strawkins wrote:"Feminism: The radical notion that women are people"

It's a quote that pops up in various Feminism101 pieces you'll find scattered around the net and is originally attributed to the British journalist Rebecca West.

This is the idea that PZ Myers and the FTB crowd claim WE are opposing.

That women are people.

You know what ?
I don't oppose the idea that women are people.
What's more, I will take a guess and say that NOBODY that posts here thinks that women are not people.



I'm a woman. I'm pretty sure I am people. I am also NOT a feminist, nor a MRA.
What's misogynistic about that?


Oh silly codelette, you've just "internalized misogynistic thought"! At least that was what I was told by the baboons when I pointed out that women in the video game industry disagreed with Anita Sarkizian(spelling ?). Patriarchy theory has an easy answer for everything! Wish we had a cool conspiracy theory :(


When I play video games with my boyfriend I always make him play a supersexy female character - and we run around the world dressing and acting like total sluts.

Does that make me a misogynist?

P.S. We played female night elves in WoW and we were always 'complimenting' one another on how 'hot' we looked b/c the night elves were built from the ground up to be pure sex.


Jeez, way to contribute to rape culture... gender traitor :snooty:
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Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Postby windy » Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:01 pm  •  [Post 2881]

Tigzy wrote:Peez is attempting to make a case here that Oddie's lament at the lack of publicity for Savile's Catholicism is being made in the face of what resulted from the Savile enquiry. Fuckin disgraceful!


The trick was a bit too transparent this time, several commenters have noticed the omission. There's even some trouble in paradise on his thread on the Zinnia Jones AMA.
“Ideological purity is for ideologues.” - J. Morales
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Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Postby Skep tickle » Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:04 pm  •  [Post 2882]

The Atheist Advocates of San Francisco meeting at which Greta Christina is speaking is starting right now. I wonder whether any 'pitters might be in attendance...
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Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Postby codelette » Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:14 pm  •  [Post 2883]

Maximus wrote:
codelette wrote:
Dick Strawkins wrote:"Feminism: The radical notion that women are people"

It's a quote that pops up in various Feminism101 pieces you'll find scattered around the net and is originally attributed to the British journalist Rebecca West.

This is the idea that PZ Myers and the FTB crowd claim WE are opposing.

That women are people.

You know what ?
I don't oppose the idea that women are people.
What's more, I will take a guess and say that NOBODY that posts here thinks that women are not people.



I'm a woman. I'm pretty sure I am people. I am also NOT a feminist, nor a MRA.
What's misogynistic about that?


Oh silly codelette, you've just "internalized misogynistic thought"! At least that was what I was told by the baboons when I pointed out that women in the video game industry disagreed with Anita Sarkizian(spelling ?). Patriarchy theory has an easy answer for everything! Wish we had a cool conspiracy theory :(



:lol:
Yeah, like once this "sister" was explaining to me how difficult was for women to get into STEM fields. I told her that it really wasn't for me (I knew since I was in elementary school that I wanted to be an engineer. I didn't know any engineer. I'm from the ghetto.). So, she turned around and told me that I was privileged...
They shift those goal posts so fast that I got dizzy.
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Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Postby another lurker » Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:16 pm  •  [Post 2884]

I mentioned previously that my boyfriend and I acted like 'sluts' in the video games we played.

And, this is one of the things that I hate about the A+/FTB crowd. I cannot describe a woman like Paris Hilton or Kim K, as 'sluts' or 'whores'. Heck, to even criticize these women for doing what they do = misogyny. 'Cuz we all know that Kim Kardashian only felt the need to tape herself having sex cuz *the patriarchy*.

And not to mention, 'whore' cannot even be used to describe a man...it's ridiculous.
I am glad to have been exposed to this point of view, and appreciate the time you took to express it.
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Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Postby Steersman » Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:20 pm  •  [Post 2885]

Skep tickle wrote:The Atheist Advocates of San Francisco meeting at which Greta Christina is speaking is starting right now. I wonder whether any 'pitters might be in attendance...

I think Sacha was planning on going … she may have said something about going incognito, possibly as the “monopod man”. Or possibly as the character in the bowler hat and cane in the movie The Thomas Crown Affair;-)
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Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Postby DownThunder » Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:20 pm  •  [Post 2886]

Pitchguest wrote:You know, it's funny to me that modern feminists, the so-called "third wave" of feminism, may have actually ruined it for themselves when they appropriated the theories of the radical second wave and decided to not just co-opt, but also trump them up; escalate them. There is no denying that feminism - the ideology - would be far less intimidating if it weren't for their conspiring about "rape culture", "the patriarchy", "male privilege" and so forth, or the notion that somehow women are being oppressed and demonised. Pretty much commiting an own goal in terms of ideological purity. For instance, "rape culture" was an idea manufactured mainly in the US in the mid 70's-early 80's, by radical feminists of the second wave (like Gloria Steinem, Andrea Dworkin, et al, although merely spokespersons for the concept and not its originators) and then quickly went off the grid - only to be seen again in the late 20th-early 21st century, marketed once again by radical feminists of the new generation.

It's therefore no surprise to me that the concept of "rape culture" is still being rejected to this day, despite the fact that Melissa McEwan of Shakesville wrote her own Rape Culture 101 to inform people about it, and the same thing applies to "the patriarchy" and the rest of the nonsense-filled diatribes and rhetoric they continually spew. If more feminists were like Miranda Celeste Hale or Ana Kasparian, then it wouldn't even be an issue. Sex-positive, strong women who take no shit from anyone - man or woman - whose psyche are not made out of porcelain to be handled with care at all times. Likewise if more religious people were more tolerant and not eager to intrude into other people's lives, then they would merely be a blip on the radar.


In terms of the latter examples you give, I think that if you define your ideology in terms of just being competent, willing to learn and grow and going about your life like everyone, that doesnt constitute a core around which a community will form.

Perhaps an unfortunate trait of human psychology, negativity is a much stronger binding force. Ie, feeling under attack, under siege, feeling oppressed etc

On a side note I am becoming increasingly hesitant about accepting the positivity in "sex-positive" feminism (not the fake pz rhetoric). Many seem to utilise the stronger emotive feminist rhetoric to their own ends. The obvious occurred to me - its quite possible to be positive about your own sexuality and others in your clique while applying different rules to others.

Even if you treat it as a movement to rectify inherent sex-negativity in feminism, I regard them no better off, sometimes worse, than many people in the world who are quite able to learn about their own sexuality without the need for ideology and sets of guidelines.
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Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Postby KiwiInOz » Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:29 pm  •  [Post 2887]

Keating wrote:
ERV wrote:And once again, Im pretty sure hes dating Watson. I might be wrong, but my brain is reminding me of this.


No, he's absolutely not. I don't think he ever has either. He did recently get married though. His essays on Atheism, when he previously went by the nym "Ebon", are a pretty good examination of the rational reasons to be an atheist.

I used to enjoy his blog before he moved to Big Think, as he did allow wide debate in comments. Some relevant posts (by random clicking) include this one on free speech and this one on thirsting for persecution. Although now that I go back and look, I realise that the posts that I enjoyed most were actually mostly be guest bloggers. Go figure. (For example, this one.)


I'm stunned too. I used to enjoy reading Ebonmuse - he put a lot of thought into what he wrote. Now, maybe not so much. Pity.
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Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Postby somedumbguy » Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:30 pm  •  [Post 2888]

DownThunder wrote:On a side note I am becoming increasingly hesitant about accepting the positivity in "sex-positive" feminism (not the fake pz rhetoric). Many seem to utilise the stronger emotive feminist rhetoric to their own ends. The obvious occurred to me - its quite possible to be positive about your own sexuality and others in your clique while applying different rules to others.


Is Amanda Marcotte (and many feminists) sex-positive? She would claim she is.

But she is famous for how she politicizes oral sex.

Oral Sex:

Male to Female: A right
Male to Male: Damn straight, fight the power
Female to Female: You go girl

Female to Male: Depends on the circumstances

http://ace.mu.nu/archives/222307.php

Adult women drooling over Twilight boys. Just fine.
Adult men drooling over Harry Potter's heroine's? Creepy wrong.

Cougars: yay cougars!
Adult men looking for "trophy" girlfriends. Creepy wrong.

Etc.
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Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Postby Gefan » Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:33 pm  •  [Post 2889]

skepCHUD wrote:Dick Strawkins wrote;... Also, if Jones is doing this to discourage the defense from calling her and there is evidence of this could she be in trouble?


She's not that bright. Smart enough to figure out how to feed her addiction to attention but that's about it.
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Re: FfTB Hypocrisy

Postby Steersman » Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:44 pm  •  [Post 2890]

My recent comment on the Pharyngula post on a “Fine Catholic Tradition” which, of course, didn’t show up because I’m banned:

While this is somewhat of a rhetorical question though of some relevance, I wonder what the consensus is on the question of providing trigger warnings. But since it seems to be part of party dogma to use them – at least in the AtheismPlus bedlam, to be considerate – to a fault – of those traumatized and disturbed by various topics and images, can I expect to see PZ and Watson, among others, championing their use in the context of scantily clad individuals? Maybe “town criers” preceding them by advising all and sundry – “hear ye, oh hear ye” – that any who are likely to be triggered by such wantonness - as seems to be the case with the good priest described above - should avert their eyes? It would, of course, pertain primarily to females as, of course, everyone knows that it is primarily males who have no control over their desires. Although some – at least those who argued, rather vociferously if not dogmatically, that Shermer’s “[atheism] is more of a guy thing” – might consider that a rather sexist perspective ….
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Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Postby AndrewV69 » Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:47 pm  •  [Post 2891]

EdwardGemmer wrote:A thought I had this morning. I was kicked off of the Pharyngula website ostensibly because I was curious about why men commit crime. I had to jump through and acknowledge all of the "privilege" stuff that I do agree with, but my question was why do men, even though privileged, commit more crime. I was pretty clear that I represent a lot of men, especially young black men, and I am searching for some answers on that question. Then came the parade of insults and the banning. It occurs to me that these limousine liberals like PZ Myers have very little concern with actual victims of racism and sexism. If you are going to attack someone because they dare defend black people, I can only come to the conclusion that PZ Myers is in fact, a racist.


I just happen to be reading that question of yours on the baboon board just now and it seemed to me that they squandered the chance (once more) to have a productive discussion on the subject (or any subject actually given their track record).

Because it seems to me that a certain % of the human population will commit crimes no matter what their relative position in society is. Never mind the consequences if caught.

I quickly skimmed the following links you provided... bookmarked to re-read but I thought I would throw this into the mix. The first link mentions:
Y-chromosome gene called SRY

And I would have thought they would also have at least also mentioned the MAOA (2-repeat allele) which apparently doubles a person’s rate of violence.

Genes and aggression: http://www.livescience.com/18983-gene-m ... ponse.html
Hormones and aggression: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the ... d-hormones

You also said:
We need a framework to understand why people end up in the places they are. Saying men are privileged would be a surprise to black men, who are incarcerated at an eye-popping rate.


Indeed.

But then the impression the baboons give me is they are not interested in anything other than advancing their peculiar agenda.

Arriving at causative factors that can then be addressed, must be discouraged at all costs because actual solutions would negate the need for their ideologically sound prescriptions.
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Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Postby BrianAllenAptJ » Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:51 pm  •  [Post 2892]

One of my old friends was attacked in a hate crime recently and is looking for help on medical bills If you can donate, if not please atleast share it. Read the story here

http://www.gofundme.com/1thhm4
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Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Postby Karmakin » Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:51 pm  •  [Post 2893]

somedumbguy wrote:
DownThunder wrote:On a side note I am becoming increasingly hesitant about accepting the positivity in "sex-positive" feminism (not the fake pz rhetoric). Many seem to utilise the stronger emotive feminist rhetoric to their own ends. The obvious occurred to me - its quite possible to be positive about your own sexuality and others in your clique while applying different rules to others.


Is Amanda Marcotte (and many feminists) sex-positive? She would claim she is.

But she is famous for how she politicizes oral sex.

Oral Sex:

Male to Female: A right
Male to Male: Damn straight, fight the power
Female to Female: You go girl

Female to Male: Depends on the circumstances

http://ace.mu.nu/archives/222307.php

Adult women drooling over Twilight boys. Just fine.
Adult men drooling over Harry Potter's heroine's? Creepy wrong.

Cougars: yay cougars!
Adult men looking for "trophy" girlfriends. Creepy wrong.

Etc.


As a long-time reader (well now ex-reader..I stopped reading with the move of Pandagon to Raw Story..hate that site) of Pandagon, I'd argue the Marcotte you're reading now is of an entirely different mindset of the Marcotte of 5-10 years ago. (I go WAY back in the blogosphere). The old AM was supportive of the notion that the problem was oppressive gender roles that were often unconscious, placed upon people by both genders. Yes, the term "patriarchy" was used, but the whole point was that it was simply the existence of these gender roles that are placed upon both men and women BY men and women.

Needless to say that's been abandoned over the last couple of years increasingly so, as that's been rejected in favor of an ideology where it's always men oppressing women.

Maybe I'm being overly charitable, and maybe it's just me that changed, but I do think that there's been a very real ideological shift among online feminist activists over the last year or two.

And yes, I agree 100% with the statement that a lot of it is that it's easier to create tight-knit communities based around hate than it is to create them based around non-hate.
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Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Postby somedumbguy » Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:55 pm  •  [Post 2894]

Karmakin wrote:
somedumbguy wrote:
DownThunder wrote:On a side note I am becoming increasingly hesitant about accepting the positivity in "sex-positive" feminism (not the fake pz rhetoric). Many seem to utilise the stronger emotive feminist rhetoric to their own ends. The obvious occurred to me - its quite possible to be positive about your own sexuality and others in your clique while applying different rules to others.


Is Amanda Marcotte (and many feminists) sex-positive? She would claim she is.

But she is famous for how she politicizes oral sex.

Oral Sex:

Male to Female: A right
Male to Male: Damn straight, fight the power
Female to Female: You go girl

Female to Male: Depends on the circumstances

http://ace.mu.nu/archives/222307.php

Adult women drooling over Twilight boys. Just fine.
Adult men drooling over Harry Potter's heroine's? Creepy wrong.

Cougars: yay cougars!
Adult men looking for "trophy" girlfriends. Creepy wrong.

Etc.


As a long-time reader (well now ex-reader..I stopped reading with the move of Pandagon to Raw Story..hate that site) of Pandagon, I'd argue the Marcotte you're reading now is of an entirely different mindset of the Marcotte of 5-10 years ago. (I go WAY back in the blogosphere). The old AM was supportive of the notion that the problem was oppressive gender roles that were often unconscious, placed upon people by both genders. Yes, the term "patriarchy" was used, but the whole point was that it was simply the existence of these gender roles that are placed upon both men and women BY men and women.

Needless to say that's been abandoned over the last couple of years increasingly so, as that's been rejected in favor of an ideology where it's always men oppressing women.

Maybe I'm being overly charitable, and maybe it's just me that changed, but I do think that there's been a very real ideological shift among online feminist activists over the last year or two.

And yes, I agree 100% with the statement that a lot of it is that it's easier to create tight-knit communities based around hate than it is to create them based around non-hate.


While some of her opinions have changed with her move to Manhattan and other trends and arguments in the Feminist blogosphere, overall, I'd say she has been relatively constant. If anything, because Feminists now must identify as sex positive, she is more careful to do so.

But her world view as defined by her behavior and the content of her writing has always been women blessed, men hitler, regardless of what she herself claims to be about.
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Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Postby Karmakin » Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:14 pm  •  [Post 2895]

somedumbguy wrote:
Karmakin wrote:As a long-time reader (well now ex-reader..I stopped reading with the move of Pandagon to Raw Story..hate that site) of Pandagon, I'd argue the Marcotte you're reading now is of an entirely different mindset of the Marcotte of 5-10 years ago. (I go WAY back in the blogosphere). The old AM was supportive of the notion that the problem was oppressive gender roles that were often unconscious, placed upon people by both genders. Yes, the term "patriarchy" was used, but the whole point was that it was simply the existence of these gender roles that are placed upon both men and women BY men and women.

Needless to say that's been abandoned over the last couple of years increasingly so, as that's been rejected in favor of an ideology where it's always men oppressing women.

Maybe I'm being overly charitable, and maybe it's just me that changed, but I do think that there's been a very real ideological shift among online feminist activists over the last year or two.

And yes, I agree 100% with the statement that a lot of it is that it's easier to create tight-knit communities based around hate than it is to create them based around non-hate.


While some of her opinions have changed with her move to Manhattan and other trends and arguments in the Feminist blogosphere, overall, I'd say she has been relatively constant. If anything, because Feminists now must identify as sex positive, she is more careful to do so.

But her world view as defined by her behavior and the content of her writing has always been women blessed, men hitler, regardless of what she herself claims to be about.


That's true. It's also probably that she was at the time trying to maintain/increase her position in the progressive political blogosphere which for the longest time (ever?) wanted to present itself as being more than simple ideologies. (Agree with that or disagree with that as you wish, but that's what people wanted to be, I think).
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Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Postby Karmakin » Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:18 pm  •  [Post 2896]

Actually, just to add on to that, there was a big conflict in the feminist/progressive political blogosphere a few years ago about Trigger Warnings that in the end, I think was a sort of proxy war between what's been mentioned above as "gender feminists" and "equality feminists". AM was definitely on the equality feminism side at the time. (With the Shakesville people being the head of the gender feminists).

Actually, the same thing came up in the FTB community soon after they opened, with a conflict between the SJW's of the Slactiverse community and FTB, and generally speaking most of FTB rejected their ideology pretty much entirely at the time.

No, I'll stand by my statement that I really do think that this is a fairly recent ideological shift among 3rd wave feminist opinion leaders.
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Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Postby welch » Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:20 pm  •  [Post 2897]

Reading more of zinnia's comments on why she did this...attention whoring is now what I think. She wants to be known as someone who gave the world an "inside" view on a famous case.


The fact she could have easily done this after the case was over either didn't occur to her, or "why should I wait for my moment in the spotlight" is her major motivation. I sincerely hope her testimony was only of minor importance.

Also, the whole "she did well against reddit, she should do fine in the courtroom" thing is hi-LAR-ious.
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Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Postby Mr Danksworth » Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:23 pm  •  [Post 2898]

Karmakin wrote:Actually, the same thing came up in the FTB community soon after they opened, with a conflict between the SJW's of the Slactiverse community and FTB, and generally speaking most of FTB rejected their ideology pretty much entirely at the time.

No, I'll stand by my statement that I really do think that this is a fairly recent ideological shift among 3rd wave feminist opinion leaders.


What do you think caused the supposed shift?
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Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Postby justinvacula » Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:25 pm  •  [Post 2899]

Karla Porter releases new episode of "As the Atheist World Turns"

http://personal.karlaporter.com/post/40 ... de-the-taf

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Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Postby Reap » Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:29 pm  •  [Post 2900]

codelette wrote:
Gumby wrote:Reap, we always knew you were a bad influence!

Image


I think this was caused by Reap's callously calling Stephie a "bitch". Reap, you should apologize to Stephie. I have an idea for the apology letter:
Image

You're welcome, Reap.

Thanks but I already promoted Stephanie to 'dick' Usually it takes 6 months for that to happen and what do I get as a reward? Thank you? Here's some flowers Reap? I bought you a nice card that says "Thanks for promoting me to 'dick'"? Nope I get blown off. Stephanie doesn't even have time to talk to me...she has had plenty of time to blog about me though hasn't she?? hmmph!
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Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Postby Gumby » Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:35 pm  •  [Post 2901]

Skep tickle wrote:PZ in "Did you have to remind me?" post on his blog today says (in part; bolding added by me):
PZ wrote:Yep, classes start for me tomorrow at 8am. ... I also get to teach my fave class, developmental biology. ... I’ll also be compelling my students to set up blogs and write about science publicly, so I’ll occasionally be linking to a lot of student work.

This seems unwise. Imagine the comment threads on his college students' blogs once the likes of Caine, Josh Spokesgay, etc follow PZ's links, at some point get triggered, & start unloading both barrels.

Also, potential financial conflict of interest, given that he gets paid for traffic at FtB. Presumably his students' work will be hosted at another site, but seems iffy if there were trackbacks or any other route by which his directing traffic from Pharyngula to the students' site might result in increased traffic back to Pharyngula.


1. PZ should not be able to force his students to write blogs. What the fuck does that have to do with developmental biology? He's just doing this to boost his own ego and give his horde some fresh toys. Maybe since he can't abuse his students directly, he has his commenters do it for him.
2. Admittedly, in the past where he has done this, the commentariat didn't attack as viciously as they normally do. However, they were still pretty fucking harsh with some of the bloggers, and I can remember at least one blogger was really badly affected by the experience. Several of them said they didn't enjoy it or get anything out of it.
3. PZ should be hauled before his superiors and told to explain why he's forcing his students to blog. And if he can't give a valid reason they should not permit him to do so.

It's a great idea, actually. For a literature or composition class. But not for a class of developmental biology students run by a grade-A vicious cowardly blogger who just wants to tun them through the commentariat wringer.


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Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Postby Gumby » Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:39 pm  •  [Post 2902]

Maximus wrote:Oh silly codelette, you've just "internalized misogynistic thought"! At least that was what I was told by the baboons when I pointed out that women in the video game industry disagreed with Anita Sarkizian(spelling ?). Patriarchy theory has an easy answer for everything! Wish we had a cool conspiracy theory :(


Well, we at least have the Slyme Pit Super-Secret Misogyny Uber Rapist Back Channel where we plot all kinds of mayhem against women.

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Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Postby justinvacula » Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:42 pm  •  [Post 2903]

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Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Postby Lsuoma » Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:48 pm  •  [Post 2904]

Sweet, best Ramics ever.
Call me old-fashioned, but I like a dump to be as memorable as it is devastating.
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Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Postby Gumby » Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:53 pm  •  [Post 2905]

Dick Strawkins wrote:Exactly.
It was a terrible idea to take them on directly by running a petition. To do that you are validating their stance, yet their official stance is a facade behind which they hide their real agenda - maintaining their monopoly of highly paid speaker positions in the US conference circuit.

Look, the basic problem we pitters face is that the word "feminism", though it has a very broad meaning, is widely interpreted by the general public as what we generally call equity or equality feminism (meaning equal rights for men and women, equal opportunity etc.)
To complain about "feminism" negatively affecting atheism and skepticism and you are off to a bad start. You are forced to go into a long winded explanation of the type of radical feminism you mean, all the while the FTB crowd are saying "but we are not rad fems, we are just ordinary feminists!"
It is really a winning strategy for them. I mean, look at them. Look at the incompetence, the obvious hypocrisy and the blatant bigotry, greed and viciousness.
Why are they still around?
Why is a dork like Watson getting invited all around the world to talk science?
It's because of their strategy to link a very fluid version of feminism to their cause.

Look at how Peezus defines their brand of feminism:

"Feminism: The radical notion that women are people"

It's a quote that pops up in various Feminism101 pieces you'll find scattered around the net and is originally attributed to the British journalist Rebecca West.

This is the idea that PZ Myers and the FTB crowd claim WE are opposing.

That women are people.

You know what ?
I don't oppose the idea that women are people.
What's more, I will take a guess and say that NOBODY that posts here thinks that women are not people.

In fact, going by PZ's description, the Slymepit is a feminist site!

I realize that PZ and his crew don't really think that feminism is simply believing "women are people".
It's clear to all that PZ really believes something more along the lines of:

Feminism is the radical notion that women are people, plus X.
X, itself, is composed of A plus B, plus C, plus D, which vary in definition and importance depending on the question at hand (rape culture, patriarchy, mansplaining, privilege, sex positivity, misogyny etc)

While I agree with Welsh that we should never take them on at their own game, but merely poke fun at their ridiculousness from the sidelines, I think it might be worthwhile to consider the similarities of the FTB side to a religious coalition.
They remind me of the religious right in the US, with Catholics allied with fundamentalist baptists. They have a cause that joins them but there are deep differences that will eventually tear them apart.
Despite the use of radfem language (mansplaining, privilege, rape culture etc) I don't think it is accurate to describe the FTB crowd as radfems.
They are mostly on the sex positive side of feminism, as opposed to the pornography negative side (nobody calls themself sex negative). I would place only Ophelia and Taslima on the pornography/sex worker negative side.
The rest of them use the language and arguments of the porn negative feminists (radfems) whenever it seem necessary, for the simple reason that the radfem philosophy of patriarchy theory is like the flood geology of feminism. It is unfalsifiable - and therefore it seems the perfect tool to use in an argument since, like flood geology, it has easy canned answers to every problem posed, except instead of "God did it!"" you get: "you just don't get it due to privilege!", "you are mansplaining!", "rape culture!", "it's misogyny!")

What would happen if the Slymepit announced it was a feminist* site?

*PZ Myers plagiarized definition. (Feminism is the radical notion that women are people"

I suspect that they would be forced into redefining what they really mean by feminism - and that is bound to lead to problems because most of them don't seem to know what the various schools of feminist thought believe.

As a quick aside, have a look at the radfem101 page - notice all the catchphrazes that have become commonplace in online atheism since Elevatorgate.
http://radicalhub.com/radfem-101/


I wish I could articulate this stuff as well as you! Well put.
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Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Postby rocko2466 » Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:55 pm  •  [Post 2906]

Well, they're advertising my petition on FtB:

http://freethoughtblogs.com/almostdiamo ... -petition/

People are complaining that I didn't cite sources. Well, I can say myself for one (I've been called a misogynist a number of times, including by PZ Myers). I can use this one: http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... ent-530969

Reap is caught up in that one too. So we can say Reap too.

There you go. Some sources.
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Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Postby Scented Nectar » Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:55 pm  •  [Post 2907]

Gumby wrote:
Maximus wrote:Oh silly codelette, you've just "internalized misogynistic thought"! At least that was what I was told by the baboons when I pointed out that women in the video game industry disagreed with Anita Sarkizian(spelling ?). Patriarchy theory has an easy answer for everything! Wish we had a cool conspiracy theory :(


Well, we at least have the Slyme Pit Super-Secret Misogyny Uber Rapist Back Channel where we plot all kinds of mayhem against women.

Shhhhhh, next thing you'll be telling them where the transparent edit buttons are! :shhh:
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Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Postby skepCHUD » Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:56 pm  •  [Post 2908]

What would be the chances of establishing a thread on the slymepit of pitters vs. the pharyngulites, the cage match??!!
Challenge Caine, Sally S, Anthony K, Illuminata to a debate hosted here.2
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Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Postby Reap » Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:57 pm  •  [Post 2909]

Al Stefanelli wrote:
codelette wrote:From Adam Lee's imbecile latest blog entry:
Let's examine the site that's probably the largest and most prominent den of sexist and misogynist atheists, a forum that proudly calls itself the Slymepit. [/quote


Image



Yea I noticed that a long time ago.
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Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Postby Gumby » Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:58 pm  •  [Post 2910]

Scented Nectar wrote:
Gumby wrote:
Maximus wrote:Oh silly codelette, you've just "internalized misogynistic thought"! At least that was what I was told by the baboons when I pointed out that women in the video game industry disagreed with Anita Sarkizian(spelling ?). Patriarchy theory has an easy answer for everything! Wish we had a cool conspiracy theory :(


Well, we at least have the Slyme Pit Super-Secret Misogyny Uber Rapist Back Channel where we plot all kinds of mayhem against women.

Shhhhhh, next thing you'll be telling them where the transparent edit buttons are! :shhh:


Relax. The edit button isn't visible to anyone without the Mark of the Beast tattooed to their forehead. That is, if there were an edit button, which of course there isn't...

:whistle:
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Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Postby Gumby » Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:00 pm  •  [Post 2911]

What's with the underage Maggie, Lsuoma?
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Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Postby rocko2466 » Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:01 pm  •  [Post 2912]

Tigzy wrote:Yet another, um, 'appropriate' ad from FTB, no doubt designed to appeal to their feminist deomographic:
Image


I'm pretty sure that might be Google Ads monitoring your cookies.

You can tell us about your manga addiction, if you like.
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Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Postby acathode » Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:01 pm  •  [Post 2913]

It's been really nagging at me for some time now, so even though I'm sure it's been said before, probably a lot better too, I'll still post this:

I'm getting REALLY tired of the "they hate/harass/bully us just because we are women!"-narrative. It's such a cheap rhetorical trick, and it is just completely ingrained in the way the FTBers want to describe, well, everything and everyone who doesn't agree with them. Adam Lee's petition is one prime example of this, Roth's post another one,

I can't be the only one who see the similarities between this and the completely inane "They hate us because our freedom!" BS that Bush tried to sell after 9/11?

In both cases it's a complete failure to acknowledge ones own actions and behavior, instead deflecting the attention to some completely irrelevant thing that allows them to score points and set the narrative. In Bush's case, he scored patriot points while selling a narrative that completely omitted the US' not-so-nice history in the ME. In FTB's case, they score victim points, and set the necessary stage for the big "MISOGYNY!" accusation.

At the core, it unlink actions from consequences, and removes the responsibilities of having to deal with the negative fall-out of doing really stupid or mean shit. If all the criticism is the result of you just being a woman, all you have to do is cry about how people are being mean to you, like a middle-schooler, and you get away scot-free.

Another interesting thing though is that both cases also rely heavily on the audience being almost completely ignorant of the actual events and facts, or already being completely sold on the narrative. Just a small amount of prior knowledge of relevant facts is enough to completely shatter the narrative as it's being told. It's really propaganda 101, get your story out there first, and no matter how dishonest it is, a load of people will gobble it up and not change their opinions, it even if the true story comes out later.

Which serves to explain part of why they are so keen on silencing people, not only on their own blogs, but otherwise as well. Anyone that doesn't get the story from FTB first, but instead learn about it from say tf00t, is a person that is much much less likely to buy the "they hate us because we are women" narrative.

ps. Anyone else noticed that it's also mainly the women they describe as being bullied or harassed, or in general get to play the victims? PZ, Laden, etc have, to my knowledge, almost never been refereed to as being bullied or harassed, nor is the narrative about how they are bravely soldiering on despite the constant harassment. Even though PZ get just as much, or even more, harsh criticism as the others of them.
It's almost as if they still are clinging to those old sexist notions that women are weak and fragile beings that need to be defended from the world by the strong and durable men...

pps. I'm sure the creationists are using this rhetorical trick to, it's just too classic to not be in the little dirty tactics handbook that they all reading from. I just can't remember how it went with them. "They hate us because they hate God"?, "They hate us because we have Jesus"? or something along those lines, isn't it?
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Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Postby Mykeru » Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:03 pm  •  [Post 2914]

Gumby wrote:
Scented Nectar wrote:
Gumby wrote:
Maximus wrote:Oh silly codelette, you've just "internalized misogynistic thought"! At least that was what I was told by the baboons when I pointed out that women in the video game industry disagreed with Anita Sarkizian(spelling ?). Patriarchy theory has an easy answer for everything! Wish we had a cool conspiracy theory :(


Well, we at least have the Slyme Pit Super-Secret Misogyny Uber Rapist Back Channel where we plot all kinds of mayhem against women.

Shhhhhh, next thing you'll be telling them where the transparent edit buttons are! :shhh:


Relax. The edit button isn't visible to anyone without the Mark of the Beast tattooed to their forehead. That is, if there were an edit button, which of course there isn't...

:whistle:


That reminds me, did the ninja throwing stars with [fill in paranoid freethought blogger victim attention whore]'s name on it come in yet?
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Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Postby Lsuoma » Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:04 pm  •  [Post 2915]

Here you go:
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
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Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Postby rocko2466 » Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:05 pm  •  [Post 2916]

LMU wrote:
Gumby wrote:
Tigzy wrote:I see Rocko's petition has caught the beady eye of the Sick Wench of Doom, who, in crowing about it not having had much publicity, makes me wonder why she should otherwise complain of bullying when clearly those bullies are quite incapable of generating as much noise for their pet hates as she and her ilk are.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/almostdiamonds/2013/01/13/the-other-petition/


There's fighting battles, then there's choosing your battles wisely. The counter-petition was doomed to failure from the start. It was a horrible idea. Most of us here already know how ridiculous these counter-petitions are, and I knew not many would sign it. All it did was give the Baboons a little larf ammo because they have a much bigger publicity machine and a bigger reader base than us - a reader base that lurves to sign petitions because they think that equates to "activism". Rocko meant well, but it was a stupid thing to do.


I don't think online petitions or polls do much either way, but I don't think we should knock people too much for trying. Similarly for JV's attempt to involve the A+ers in debate. I think it's important to do these things so that more people know we are out here holding a viewpoint different from the SJWs.


I EXIST AS A PERSON YOU KNOW! *sobs into bucket of chicken*

I was of the view that notwithstanding lack of signatures I could expect enough attention to get it read by some FtBers. That was my purpose.

They're not going to read my blog, but they might read the petition.

As a numbers game, of course it's stupid. I don't have a network of (however many blogs they have) to flog my petition.

It will at the very least show that there are some people being excluded only on the basis of fairly reasonable disagreement and some of their approach may change. (FtB may even improve its hit count and $!)

I also have come to learn that organising Slymepitters is somewhat like herding cats (unless they're donating money).
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Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Postby Lsuoma » Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:08 pm  •  [Post 2917]

Gumby wrote:What's with the underage Maggie, Lsuoma?

Paedo-magnet.

:puke-huge: :puke-huge: :puke-huge:

Also, just spotted this smiley: :romance-grouphug:
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Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Postby Gumby » Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:09 pm  •  [Post 2918]

Mykeru wrote:That reminds me, did the ninja throwing stars with [fill in paranoid freethought blogger victim attention whore]'s name on it come in yet?


No. I ended up getting a nice watch instead, and I have to pay off the balance on the Pit's Amazon account before I can order them. Sorry, but it's a nice watch.
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Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Postby Lsuoma » Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:11 pm  •  [Post 2919]

Thanks for the donation from New Joizey!
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Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Postby rocko2466 » Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:11 pm  •  [Post 2920]

Dick Strawkins wrote:SNIP
Look, the basic problem we pitters face is that the word "feminism", though it has a very broad meaning, is widely interpreted by the general public as what we generally call equity or equality feminism (meaning equal rights for men and women, equal opportunity etc.)
To complain about "feminism" negatively affecting atheism and skepticism and you are off to a bad start. You are forced to go into a long winded explanation of the type of radical feminism you mean, all the while the FTB crowd are saying "but we are not rad fems, we are just ordinary feminists!"
SNIP


A lot of people seem to be saying "let's not debate Peezus about it because he'll just lie."

WTF. That's the response to Vacula's A+ challenge all over again.
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Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Postby Gumby » Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:12 pm  •  [Post 2921]

Lsuoma wrote:
Gumby wrote:What's with the underage Maggie, Lsuoma?

Paedo-magnet.


Fuckin' paedo-magnets, how do they work?
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Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Postby Mykeru » Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:13 pm  •  [Post 2922]

Lsuoma wrote:Thanks for the donation from New Joizey!


[spoiler]What exit?[/spoiler]

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
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Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Postby Scented Nectar » Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:21 pm  •  [Post 2923]

Gumby wrote:
Scented Nectar wrote:
Gumby wrote:
Maximus wrote:Oh silly codelette, you've just "internalized misogynistic thought"! At least that was what I was told by the baboons when I pointed out that women in the video game industry disagreed with Anita Sarkizian(spelling ?). Patriarchy theory has an easy answer for everything! Wish we had a cool conspiracy theory :(

Well, we at least have the Slyme Pit Super-Secret Misogyny Uber Rapist Back Channel where we plot all kinds of mayhem against women.

Shhhhhh, next thing you'll be telling them where the transparent edit buttons are! :shhh:

Relax. The edit button isn't visible to anyone without the Mark of the Beast tattooed to their forehead. That is, if there were an edit button, which of course there isn't...

:whistle:

Um yeah, yeah, that's what I meant, IF there were one, which there's not, of course. Scuse me, must be off now.
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Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Postby welch » Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:25 pm  •  [Post 2924]

rocko2466 wrote:
Dick Strawkins wrote:SNIP
Look, the basic problem we pitters face is that the word "feminism", though it has a very broad meaning, is widely interpreted by the general public as what we generally call equity or equality feminism (meaning equal rights for men and women, equal opportunity etc.)
To complain about "feminism" negatively affecting atheism and skepticism and you are off to a bad start. You are forced to go into a long winded explanation of the type of radical feminism you mean, all the while the FTB crowd are saying "but we are not rad fems, we are just ordinary feminists!"
SNIP


A lot of people seem to be saying "let's not debate Peezus about it because he'll just lie."

WTF. That's the response to Vacula's A+ challenge all over again.


I have no interest in debating him because he'll quote mine the shit out of it for blog fodder. He's also completely two-faced in that what he says in person has fuck - nothing to do with what he says on his blog, so you can't assume that what he says in person is what he means, or vice-versa. Finally, the little fuck will change the goalposts at will. You can't have a debate or discussion with someone like that.
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Re: The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

Postby jjbinx007 » Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:35 pm  •  [Post 2925]

Dick Strawkins wrote:As a quick aside, have a look at the radfem101 page - notice all the catchphrazes that have become commonplace in online atheism since Elevatorgate.
http://radicalhub.com/radfem-101/


If anyone thought for one moment that Feminism was about equality and not just women's issues then Feminism 101 rather helpfully has a section on why you must not point out that things happen to men too.

No one is saying that discussions on men and masculinities shouldn’t go on. It is absolutely important to have dialogue on men’s issues, including discussions on violence done towards men. The thing is, a feminist space — unless the topic is specifically men’s issues — is not the place to have that discussion and neither are spaces (feminist or otherwise) in which the topic is specifically focused on women’s issues.

What it boils down to is this: Men, not women, need to be the ones creating the spaces to discuss men’s issues. There are a lot of feminist allies who do this, in fact, and there also a lot of non-feminist (or anti-feminist, if you really want to go there) spaces that are welcoming to this kind of discussion. Thus, the appropriate response to a thread about women is not to post a comment on it about men, but rather to find (or make) a discussion about men.


(non Feminist obviously means anti-Feminist)

If you take a look at the Radfem link we are told:

Male bonding over misogyny
In real life, and as mirrored in media images, men bond with each other through observing and perpetrating acts of misogyny, such as working in groups to sexually harass women, watching misogynistic pornography together, and sexually abusing women such as in sharing hired prostituted women and strippers, sharing sexual partners, gang rape, and woman-murder.

Why? Because…

Male bonding over misogyny supports male power. Men increase their individual and collective power through all-male group-bonding, which creates relationships and networks through which they pass along opportunities and knowledge. This power-sharing over misogyny is often literal, such as business deals that take place in strip clubs where oftentimes, the women performing are economically coerced and exploited, and where female associates are either not invited or do not feel comfortable so are unable or unwilling to participate, and are denied opportunities that are in effect only available to men.

Male bonding over misogyny creates a shared identity and group cohesion, where they reassure each other that they are not powerless sexual slaves, rape-objects, domestic servants, physically weak or saddled with children; women are. They build trust over knowing that they are part of the same group, the privileged oppressor class, and that they share experiences, perspectives, and values, namely, male entitlement, male supremacy, misogyny, and a willingness to abuse their male privilege, including harming and committing crimes against girls and women.


But apparently, Feminism is simply the radical notion that women are people. If you're against Feminism you must be a porn-watching woman murderer who conducts business deals in strip clubs where you'll later rape those underpaid strippers.
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