The Trump Dump!

Double wank and shit chips
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Re: The Trump Dump!

#3601

Post by Brive1987 » Thu Mar 21, 2019 2:49 pm

I’ve written enough screeds. And the framing of this request is of course transparent.

So I’ll simply state the obvious.

My working hypnosis is that in Western countries there are converging but seperate drivers for change that do not encourage families and which will produce a weaker overall community, society and nation.

“Change” is too often conflated with dismantling traditional societal scaffolds as an ideological end in itself. Hence the drivers are often anti-isms.

Many of these drivers can be grouped under a general label of ‘social progressivism’. Or social liberalism (which has bastardised classical Liberalism). Add to this a self destructive government-backed economic “growth” model based on artificial population growth.

The tweets I listed graphically illustrate deliverables, courtesy of these drivers.

The drivers include but are not limited to agendas that are

anti
+ nationalism in general (ie pro post-national)
+ cultural based nationalism in particular
+ traditional nuclear families
+ white pride (defined by reticence to self flagellate)
+ the ‘West’ as a positive term
+ constitutional monarchy
+ traditional flags such as Australia’s
+ free speech for the right of centre
+ Christian religion as an applied worldview
+ men
+ any notion of traditional gender roles
+ heterosexuality as a social norm (which doesn’t preclude tolerance of deviation from the norm)
+ personal commitment to productively contributing to society

The opposite is also true, the agendas are

pro
Mass migration
Weak borders
Selective censorship
Multiculturalism
Introduction of liberal themes in education
Weak values-based nations (opposite to cultural)
Gay marriage and unconventional unions as a source of strength
Metoo patriarchy based feminism
Black armband history
Cultural equivalencies
Post modern fluid realities (from trans to history to the arts to basic words)
Disproportionate power accorded to minorities
Nanny state mentality

These dynamics are not being run to a ZOG conspiracy. Though proponents of certain causes will naturally find common ground. Progressivism is in the ascendancy in the non American West and there is no finish line. In the States the issue is in doubt. Which is why I’ll take Trump and his predilectos over Pelosi, Waters and slavey reparations.

In short the West is undergoing a sustained self-destructive moral panic, encouraged by proponents of destructive ideologies who appear to target the foundations of the society around them.

I see elements of the Pit, the alt-right, the alt-lite, identitarians, Watson, Peterson, pro brexit and social conservatives as working in reaction to these dynamics. A weak coalition of varying sanity and cogency.

My thinking is still evolving, but nothing I have read here has made me doubt that these converging drivers are a concern.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#3602

Post by Brive1987 » Thu Mar 21, 2019 2:50 pm

Whether the trend is recoverable (in whole or part) is another question altogether. But first we need to accept we have a drinking problem.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#3603

Post by Brive1987 » Thu Mar 21, 2019 2:57 pm

It would also be possible to write a Kirb like thesis examining each of the drivers / agendas.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#3604

Post by Brive1987 » Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:05 pm

Finally. It’s interesting that there have been a few stabs at writing a proper account of some or all facets. From the “Strange Death” to the 12 Rules etc but most efforts have been shit. Like Southerns book, let alone the NZ Manifesto. :cdc:

It would be refreshing to get a popular accessible, data driven, structured argument breakdown. If only so idiots like Old Ones had sufficient dunny paper.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#3605

Post by MarcusAu » Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:11 pm

Brive1987 wrote: I’ve written enough screeds. And the framing of this request is of course transparent.
Enought screeds? So it ain't so.

Transparent - well I'd hate to be predictable. Perhaps the time has come to start the old Diceman thiing again. Or maybe not - predictability has it's virtues after all.

I bet it felt good to get it out - and now it should probably be saved to it's own thread where you can point to it, or make additions - and save it for posterity.

More substantial than a tweet, or a youtbube video - but does it have the rigor of the uni essays you have to write from time to time?

And what is the criteria for what makes the cut? For instance - Why constitutional monarchy? - when it would be more traditional for someone of say Irish decent to take the the opposite position.

There are lots of data points - or has I like to call then 'Anecdots' but even a plurality of them do not make data.

(There you go - that's transparency for you - one the main reasons I raised the point was so that I could work that pun in).

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#3606

Post by Brive1987 » Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:24 pm

If your objective was for me to define a central conspiracy at the centre of these agendas, well you will be mistaken.

And no, I haven’t mistaken this board of POVs as a Masters environment.

And actually, given the audience, it felt fairly futile responding to your entreaty. But thanks for asking.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#3607

Post by Brive1987 » Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:26 pm

Oh. I identified Const Monarchy because it is at the centre of our constitution and there are calls to strike the serpent down. Because.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#3608

Post by Brive1987 » Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:29 pm

“I will choose the posts I write and the manner in which they are written”

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#3609

Post by MarcusAu » Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:37 pm

Futile? That's probably unavoidable given the nature of the world.

"We must imagine Sisyphus happy" as Camus once said. (Actually I cribbed that from a youtube vid).


I image that your world view is coherent enough - and does not need to have a central defining conspiracy. But if you think that's what I was after then it may be that nothing will change your mind.

I'm reminded of the old Batman TV show where Batman kept himself sane (by reciting the 2 times tables backwards) when he was subjected to the a version of the Chinese water torture. A constant barrage of clips & tweets (at a sustained) with very little commentary does tend to overwhelm - and does not lend itself to a fruitful discussion.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#3610

Post by MarcusAu » Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:53 pm

*pace

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#3611

Post by Brive1987 » Thu Mar 21, 2019 11:02 pm

You complain of anecdote context free tweets while in the Trump Dump? :lol: :lol:

Personally I see my efforts as footnotes in a debate the liberals can’t win. The RL implications of acquiescence to progressive agendas.

Speaking of which, CFB will have to surrender his armoury when his mates seize powder out of the ashes of the Electoral College.


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Re: The Trump Dump!

#3612

Post by Brive1987 » Thu Mar 21, 2019 11:03 pm

Oops


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Re: The Trump Dump!

#3613

Post by MarcusAu » Thu Mar 21, 2019 11:25 pm

Brive1987 wrote: You complain of anecdote context free tweets while in the Trump Dump? :lol: :lol:
Without punctuation I would take that as an imperative. But I was bound to complain about something sooner or later anyway

Brive1987 wrote:
Speaking of which, CFB will have to surrender his armoury when his mates seize powder out of the ashes of the Electoral College.
I'm sure he has upgraded his arsenal from muskets some time ago.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#3614

Post by Brive1987 » Thu Mar 21, 2019 11:30 pm

Haha. The evil axis of a cracked iPad screen, no glasses, autocorrect and a natural predilection to chaos.

Heads up. I now intentionally use a random number of points for ellipsis on the main thread. Because I am a troll. :burn:

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#3615

Post by MarcusAu » Thu Mar 21, 2019 11:37 pm

Brive1987 wrote: Heads up. I now intentionally use a random number of points for ellipsis on the main thread. Because I am a troll.
Dotty - more like.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#3616

Post by Sunder » Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:43 am


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Re: The Trump Dump!

#3617

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:29 am


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Re: The Trump Dump!

#3618

Post by free thoughtpolice » Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:54 am

Brive1987 wrote: Oops

What's the big deal? That is pretty much the law in Canada. Exceptions are made for certain collectible firearms but hunters and sport shooters don't need high capacity magazines and it at least makes it a bit more difficult for a mass murderer to rack up as large number of victims as the Brievik and Tarrant types have managed.
Many of the magazines can be altered to hold fewer rounds so confiscation or buyback isn't necessary.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#3619

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:26 am

Brive1987 wrote: You complain of anecdote context free tweets while in the Trump Dump? :lol: :lol:

Personally I see my efforts as footnotes in a debate the liberals can’t win. The RL implications of acquiescence to progressive agendas.

Speaking of which, CFB will have to surrender his armoury when his mates seize powder out of the ashes of the Electoral College.

I'm sure that sounded better in your head. While I am a gun owner, perhaps even enthusiast, I am not a gun nut. They are tools, nothing more. I am perfectly willing to have a sensible look at the Second Amendment, as long as it is based on science and rational arguments. There really isn't a need for bump-stocks, nor high-capacity magazines. Of course, with sufficient knowledge a lot of semi-automatic weapons can be modified, and you can 3D print magazines or even firearms now. Thus rendering a lit of legislation null, as that horse has left the barn, and probably the county. There's a lot of weapons already out there, and there's not really enough support to catalyze a serious move on the Second. Most of it is fearmongering to sell weapons, or political pandering to shore up support among the liberal base. I'm not losing any sleep over it, and any ban will be on new weapon sales, as existing firearms would cause large-scale revolt.

Right now I carry, because I have to carry. It may surprise, or please you to know that there's a few nasty types that wish to do this poor ol' fluffy bunny harm. What a world, and me such a nice guy, eh?

But I digress. Your issue, as I see it, is that you engage in black-and-white and apocalyptic thinking. In reality, the situation is far more complex. Yes, absolutely liberalism run amok is a terribly destructive force. So is conservatism. It is in the balance of these forces, the stable center, wherein sense is made.

Your tendentious tendency to simply lump the entire left together, while sorting the right with a fine-tooth comb for the saner bits simply shows bias. It isn't footnotes to an argument liberals can't win. You nutpick, or choose the most outrageous examples of the left as indicative of the whole, and handwave away any similar tendency on the right. It's disingenuous, not productive and makes suspect your entire premise. That's just tribalism. You acknowledge certain liberal gains already made, like the destigmatization of homosexuality, without acknowledging that conservatives vehemently opposed it at first. It's simply not an honest look at the situation, it is a demonization of a side, no nuance or subtlety at all.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#3620

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:35 am

free thoughtpolice wrote:
Brive1987 wrote: Oops

What's the big deal? That is pretty much the law in Canada. Exceptions are made for certain collectible firearms but hunters and sport shooters don't need high capacity magazines and it at least makes it a bit more difficult for a mass murderer to rack up as large number of victims as the Brievik and Tarrant types have managed.
Many of the magazines can be altered to hold fewer rounds so confiscation or buyback isn't necessary.
Yep. Tragically, the NRA and other unsavory types have the idea that military grade weapons are necessary to ensure freedom drilled into the heads of willing rubes. They are willing, quite literally, to die on that hill. So anybody without a police record over the age of 18 (or 21 in some areas now) can purchase something that makes killing very, very easy.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#3621

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:00 pm


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Re: The Trump Dump!

#3622

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:12 pm

Which, I suppose is a bit hypocritical, as I own several of these weapons and high capacity magazines. There's just no good, easy answer to the gun issue in America. I will state emphatically that the NRA is causing a lot more harm than good. They only exist anymore to drum up gun sales. At one time they were about education and safety, but now that's not even on their radar. I gave up on them decades ago, and I still get their begging for money fliers several times a month. Bastards.

Now that weapons can be made with computerized CNC and 3D printers, the idea that we can contain the beast is nearly quaint. Since a gun is a criminal's primary tool, they'll almost always get a gun. And Britain's overreaction in knife sales and confisticating whisks doesn't seem to have solved stabby-stab, slashy-cut crime in London, etc.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#3623

Post by Brive1987 » Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:53 pm

free thoughtpolice wrote:
Brive1987 wrote: Oops

https..://twitter.com/katiepavlich/status/1108755226050347009?s=21
What's the big deal? That is pretty much the law in Canada. Exceptions are made for certain collectible firearms but hunters and sport shooters don't need high capacity magazines and it at least makes it a bit more difficult for a mass murderer to rack up as large number of victims as the Brievik and Tarrant types have managed.
Many of the magazines can be altered to hold fewer rounds so confiscation or buyback isn't necessary.
Do you have semi automatic weapons? Or only bolt Action?

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#3624

Post by Brive1987 » Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:02 pm

CaptainFluffyBunny wrote:
Brive1987 wrote: You complain of anecdote context free tweets while in the Trump Dump? :lol: :lol:

Personally I see my efforts as footnotes in a debate the liberals can’t win. The RL implications of acquiescence to progressive agendas.

Speaking of which, CFB will have to surrender his armoury when his mates seize powder out of the ashes of the Electoral College.

I'm sure that sounded better in your head. While I am a gun owner, perhaps even enthusiast, I am not a gun nut. They are tools, nothing more. I am perfectly willing to have a sensible look at the Second Amendment, as long as it is based on science and rational arguments. There really isn't a need for bump-stocks, nor high-capacity magazines. Of course, with sufficient knowledge a lot of semi-automatic weapons can be modified, and you can 3D print magazines or even firearms now. Thus rendering a lit of legislation null, as that horse has left the barn, and probably the county. There's a lot of weapons already out there, and there's not really enough support to catalyze a serious move on the Second. Most of it is fearmongering to sell weapons, or political pandering to shore up support among the liberal base. I'm not losing any sleep over it, and any ban will be on new weapon sales, as existing firearms would cause large-scale revolt.

Right now I carry, because I have to carry. It may surprise, or please you to know that there's a few nasty types that wish to do this poor ol' fluffy bunny harm. What a world, and me such a nice guy, eh?

But I digress. Your issue, as I see it, is that you engage in black-and-white and apocalyptic thinking. In reality, the situation is far more complex. Yes, absolutely liberalism run amok is a terribly destructive force. So is conservatism. It is in the balance of these forces, the stable center, wherein sense is made.

Your tendentious tendency to simply lump the entire left together, while sorting the right with a fine-tooth comb for the saner bits simply shows bias. It isn't footnotes to an argument liberals can't win. You nutpick, or choose the most outrageous examples of the left as indicative of the whole, and handwave away any similar tendency on the right. It's disingenuous, not productive and makes suspect your entire premise. That's just tribalism. You acknowledge certain liberal gains already made, like the destigmatization of homosexuality, without acknowledging that conservatives vehemently opposed it at first. It's simply not an honest look at the situation, it is a demonization of a side, no nuance or subtlety at all.
Firstly, borked the tweet but I was pointing out that Saint Bernie want some your non bolt action semi autos. Because he is an ideolog. Somehow that segued for you into an anti NRA pitch. Weird.

Secondly, my point was that progressivism is running the agenda in the West (outside America) via massively disproportionate power and influence. This is demonstrable across multiple outcome areas using a number of indicators. And it isn’t making us strong.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#3625

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:04 pm

Brive1987 wrote:
free thoughtpolice wrote:
Brive1987 wrote: Oops

https..://twitter.com/katiepavlich/status/1108755226050347009?s=21
What's the big deal? That is pretty much the law in Canada. Exceptions are made for certain collectible firearms but hunters and sport shooters don't need high capacity magazines and it at least makes it a bit more difficult for a mass murderer to rack up as large number of victims as the Brievik and Tarrant types have managed.
Many of the magazines can be altered to hold fewer rounds so confiscation or buyback isn't necessary.
Do you have semi automatic weapons? Or only bolt Action?
Quite a bit of each. Most have been moved to Oregon, as we in Washington State have a new law about securing firearms. Many of mine were in the safe, but others were secured with a trigger-lock, cable or magazine stored separately. The new law is a bit ambiguous, so rather than risk it, I've had to store them in my dad's larger safe. I do most of my shooting down there anyway, as I'm adverse to paying a small fortune to shoot next to people with little knowledge or regard for firearm safety and all the intelligence of dirt. In the process, my eldest son managed to snap off the folding iron sight on my Ruger 10-22 and break the scope on my deer rifle. Sigh.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#3626

Post by Brive1987 » Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:05 pm

Try that again ...

“Firstly, borked the tweet but I was pointing out that Saint Bernie wants your semi autos ....”

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#3627

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:50 pm

Brive1987 wrote: Try that again ...

“Firstly, borked the tweet but I was pointing out that Saint Bernie wants your semi autos ....”
Yep. But I think the odds of him accomplishing this is very low. I think the odds, in the highly-unlikely scenario that he secures the nomination, that he would get universal health care is reasonably good. There is always a good deal of posturing in campaigns. I tend towards a pragmatic approach.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#3628

Post by free thoughtpolice » Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:52 pm

Brive wrote:
Do you have semi automatic weapons? Or only bolt Action?
I've only owned bolt action rifles and pump shotguns. The law here is 3 shell capacity in shotguns and long ago during times I was camping in grizzly country I (maybe depending if overzealous mounties are reading this) I may have removed the plug to allow extra shells as one usually set up buckshot/slug /buckshot/slug/ slug as the coastal brown bears near here routinely exceed 1000 lb. and are not easy to kill.
Semi-automatic shotguns are definitely useful as bear guns as a typical scenario is an animal moving quickly from a short range and even a well placed heart shot can allow time for the bear to kill you, about 10 seconds, before it dies. It gives you extra time to connect with collar bone, neck, or spine shots which will halt the charge. Fortunately never had to test the system out. :)


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Re: The Trump Dump!

#3630

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:16 pm

Progressivism, left unchecked would indeed ruin the West. So would conservatism. Indeed, I recall not too long ago having to fight our local school board as they made a mockery of my school district by trying to put Intelligent Design in the biology curriculum. We have local preachers trying to get coaches fired for being gay. Full-bore Christianity primarily differs from Islam in the details, not the oppresions it engenders. It's just mostly been discarded as inconvenient, but there's still Christians perfectly willing to have the death penalty for sodomy, and would happily enforce it if they came to power.

I'm not against all conservative values. Indeed, I believe that conservatives play an important role in American politics. Intelligent conservatives, anyway. They put a check on the worst elements of the left. America was designed around checks and balances, competition and making wholesale change very difficult. I see the value in competing ideas.

But, let's look at Trump. You acknowledge he's crooked. He's certainly broken the law, and it's not at all beyond the pale to think he's cooperated with the Russians. He has become the Republican party. If they don't agree with him, they now along because they're afraid of him. But Trump is in trouble. You post your calender to show that he's no indicted yet, etc. That's will certainly change. Let's say that he his called to account for his crimes. What then happens to the conservative values you espouse? He has poisoned the Republican party. By cooperation and failure to hold him to account, the whole party is tainted. They will likely get clobbered in the elections, and Democrats will be victorious. Some of the nuttiest ones, like AOC will take that as a mandate. So will a lot of the electorate. Nobody wants to be the party associated with corruption and other crimes. There will be a few, QAnon and others, that will never believe Trump was guilty, whine about "Deep State" and may even resort to violence. In the end, it's just the mirror image of the divisiveness and identify politics as the regressive left.

In the end, Trump poisons everything (also a good book by Rick Wilson, an old-school conservative.) Already Trump has made the regressive left stronger, not weaker. If he's taken down, and it's certainly quite possible) everything you stand for will be weakened or cast into disrepute. This is what a lot of intelligent conservatives are arguing; Rick Wilson, David French, etc.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#3631

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:30 pm



So it begins... :popcorn:

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#3632

Post by Brive1987 » Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:33 pm

http://i.imgur.com/ZS6tSiN.jpg

“No further indictments”

Sounds like Trump and his gang are on the mat.


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Re: The Trump Dump!

#3633

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:54 pm

This has been covered before, Brive. There is considerable opposition to indicting a sitting president. That will be up to confess after viewing the report.


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Re: The Trump Dump!

#3635

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:55 pm

Congress.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#3636

Post by Brive1987 » Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:37 pm

CaptainFluffyBunny wrote: This has been covered before, Brive. There is considerable opposition to indicting a sitting president. That will be up to confess after viewing the report.
I know - that’s why I said “gang”. What I posted doesn’t seem to be a compelling indication of success.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#3637

Post by free thoughtpolice » Fri Mar 22, 2019 4:14 pm

Brive1987 wrote:
CaptainFluffyBunny wrote: This has been covered before, Brive. There is considerable opposition to indicting a sitting president. That will be up to confess after viewing the report.
I know - that’s why I said “gang”. What I posted doesn’t seem to be a compelling indication of success.
As Manafort apparently won't be facing a conspiring with Russians charge likely no one else will at least in the "collusion" sense. We will see, but also the scope of Mueller's investigation was limited, so other investigations may uncover other crimes.
My previous post quotes an article that talks about other investigation of Trump and the gang. We will see.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#3638

Post by Sunder » Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:41 pm

CaptainFluffyBunny wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:29 am
Honestly this is beyond absurd. Trump's entire staff at this point is nothing but people who will do whatever he says. There should not be any internal conflicts unless either the boss is so stupid and scatterbrained that he doesn't even pay attention to what's going on, or he's actively creating chaos for shits and giggles.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#3639

Post by Brive1987 » Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:50 pm



“We wish you a mueller Christmas” 🎄

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#3640

Post by Old_ones » Fri Mar 22, 2019 8:35 pm

Brive1987 wrote: [IMG.]http://i.imgur.com/ZS6tSiN.jpg[/IMG]

“No further indictments”

Sounds like Trump and his gang are on the mat.
(snip)
Submitted without comment.
Benjamin Wittes wrote: The president should wait before popping the champagne corks over this and tweeting in triumph. Yes, in the best-case scenario for the president, Mueller is not proceeding further because he lacks the evidence to do so. But even this possibility contains multitudes: everything from what the president calls “NO COLLUSION!” to evidence that falls just short of adequate to prove criminal conduct to a reasonable jury beyond a reasonable doubt—evidence that could still prove devastating if the conduct at issue becomes public.

There are other possibilities as well. It’s possible, for example, that Mueller is not proceeding against certain defendants other than the president because he has referred them to other prosecutorial offices; some of these referrals are already public, and it’s reasonable to expect there may be other referrals too. In this iteration, what is ending here is not the investigation, merely the portion of the investigation Mueller chose to retain for himself. It’s possible also that Mueller is finished because he has determined that while the evidence would support a prosecution of the president, he is bound by the Justice Department’s long-standing position that the president is not amenable to criminal process. On the obstruction front, he may well have concluded that, while the president acted to obstruct the investigation, he cannot prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the president’s obstructive acts were not exercises of Trump’s Article II powers. It’s also possible that Mueller has strong prudential reasons for not proceeding with otherwise viable cases.

...

Vindication for the president will take place only when we learn that the facts contained in the report exculpate him. The end of the Mueller probe could well prove tomorrow to be merely the creation of a factual record for the next act of this drama.
(emphasis mine)

https://www.lawfareblog.com/very-quick- ... estigation

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#3641

Post by Brive1987 » Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:10 pm

Old_ones wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 8:35 pm
Brive1987 wrote: [IMG.]http://i.imgur.com/ZS6tSiN.jpg[/IMG]

“No further indictments”

Sounds like Trump and his gang are on the mat.
(snip)
Submitted without comment.
Benjamin Wittes wrote: The president should wait before popping the champagne corks over this and tweeting in triumph. Yes, in the best-case scenario for the president, Mueller is not proceeding further because he lacks the evidence to do so. But even this possibility contains multitudes: everything from what the president calls “NO COLLUSION!” to evidence that falls just short of adequate to prove criminal conduct to a reasonable jury beyond a reasonable doubt—evidence that could still prove devastating if the conduct at issue becomes public.

There are other possibilities as well. It’s possible, for example, that Mueller is not proceeding against certain defendants other than the president because he has referred them to other prosecutorial offices; some of these referrals are already public, and it’s reasonable to expect there may be other referrals too. In this iteration, what is ending here is not the investigation, merely the portion of the investigation Mueller chose to retain for himself. It’s possible also that Mueller is finished because he has determined that while the evidence would support a prosecution of the president, he is bound by the Justice Department’s long-standing position that the president is not amenable to criminal process. On the obstruction front, he may well have concluded that, while the president acted to obstruct the investigation, he cannot prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the president’s obstructive acts were not exercises of Trump’s Article II powers. It’s also possible that Mueller has strong prudential reasons for not proceeding with otherwise viable cases.

...

Vindication for the president will take place only when we learn that the facts contained in the report exculpate him. The end of the Mueller probe could well prove tomorrow to be merely the creation of a factual record for the next act of this drama.
(emphasis mine)

https://www.lawfareblog.com/very-quick- ... estigation
Resubmitted without comment. Change of emphasis mine.

Ok I will do comment. For a bunch of dudes who I’ve cautioned to keep the squeals down till there is resolution, well it seems mighty odd that you are all “let’s wait and see” now.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#3642

Post by Old_ones » Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:11 pm

Brive1987 wrote: Ok I will do comment. For a bunch of dudes who I’ve cautioned to keep the squeals down till there is resolution, well it seems mighty odd that you are all “let’s wait and see” now.
It's almost as if there were a report concluding a 2 year investigation, the content of which is still unknown to the public. All those red words you highlighted make exactly that point, genius. I'm not sure why you would assume Trump is exonerated just because Mueller didn't try to breach DOJ policy to indict a sitting president.

My mind hasn't changed about the probable significance of the Trump tower meeting, or the fact that Trump was privately trying to work out a deal for a tower in Moscow, while he lied to the public about having no business in Russia during the 2016 election. I'm still convinced he is a criminal based on publicly available information. What I don't know is what Mueller's analysis will be, what new evidence will be in the report, or what recommendations he might make.

Maybe Mueller will make no recommendations and say that the evidence linking Trump to Russia is too tenuous to inform any solid conclusion. If that's the case, congratulations to Mr. Trump, and I hope he has a clear conscience with respect to his finances and business dealings, because those are under investigation as well (by SDNY). And he's already been implicated in a campaign finance felony in that investigation.


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Re: The Trump Dump!

#3644

Post by Brive1987 » Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:43 pm

538 had a very subdued Mueller emergency podcast.

Pretty minor fry in quality and quantity compared to other investigations. 7 court cases (once you strip out the Russkies who won’t face justice). None of them collusion based. No evidence Mueller was stopped from bringing any indictments. No other obvious political interference. No additional indictments likely.

No fire. No fury.

I’m sure their dreams will be realised with the summary release though.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#3645

Post by Kirbmarc » Sat Mar 23, 2019 11:45 pm

I think that it's perfectly possible that Trump and associates might have done shady, but not strictly illegal things when it comes to their deals with Russia.

The extreme version of the "Russian collusion" narrative, the one that talked about Trump being "blackmailed" by the Russians (over the "pee tape" or other things) or a "puppet" to Russian interests, always seemed very unlikely to me, and those who obsessively pushed it (like Louise Mensch) didn't seem very rational.

There was still reasonable room to investigate whether there were some illegal financial/political dealings between the Trump campaign and the Russians over some quid pro quo in terms of dirt on Clinton over favorable lifting of sanctions.

It's possible that Trump&co might have found a way to have a shady but not illegal deal: after all lobbies and special interests have lots of leeway in the US, and "pay for play" is a feature for American politics. Many Trump associates have toed the line between corruption and lobbying, because indeed that's pretty thin and confused line, since American laws allow for plenty of morally dubious behavior when it comes to lobbying and political fundraising. People like Manafort or Stone have been caught doing illegal things, others might have been a little more careful or lucky.

Whether Trump should be impeached or not for shady but not strictly illegal deals depends on your interpretation of "high crimes and misdemeanors". I think at this point Trump is quite unlikely to get impeached anyway, since the Republicans control the Senate and they have every reason not to remove Trump unless there's a clear "smoking gun", which at this point is unlikely to come up.

Still, it'd be interesting to read Mueller's report, to find out exactly what it says. There might be some pretty damning evidence of some behavior which is not strictly speaking illegal, or illegal but not worth risking precedent against indicting sitting Presidents, but is still so egregious that it might matter politically. It's a bit of a long shot, though, considering just how much Trump has gotten away with.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#3646

Post by Kirbmarc » Sat Mar 23, 2019 11:57 pm

I find it a bit funny that in the US it's not illegal to be a lobbyist for a foreign power, as long as you don't lie about it to a prosecutor. You can get away with "persuading" congressmen or senators or even federal agencies to change their rules to favor a foreign power, even one as awful as Saudi Arabia, as long as you openly declare what you're doing. Flynn got in trouble not for serving the interests of Turkey in the US, but for lying about it to the FBI.

There are lots of loopholes to get away with what is very, very close to bribery but isn't quite bribery enough to be illegal.

So I wouldn't be surprised if Trump and his associates engaged in shady but not strictly illegal activities (or activities which were not likely to produce evidence of illegal action) activity when it came to their Russian dealings.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#3647

Post by Brive1987 » Sun Mar 24, 2019 1:27 am

Kirbmarc wrote:
The extreme version of the "Russian collusion" narrative, the one that talked about Trump being "blackmailed" by the Russians (over the "pee tape" or other things) or a "puppet" to Russian interests, always seemed very unlikely to me, and those who obsessively pushed it (like Louise Mensch) didn't seem very rational.
Mensch has a ticket at the back of a long democratic mob of pitchfork carrying pugilists.

Leave the poor dame alone.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#3648

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:07 am

I note none of the Republicans close to Trump are calling for the release of the report. Odd, since they're also claiming it exonerates him.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#3649

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:09 am


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Re: The Trump Dump!

#3650

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:10 am


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Re: The Trump Dump!

#3651

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:13 am


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Re: The Trump Dump!

#3652

Post by free thoughtpolice » Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:28 am

Trump may have broken the law, but because he is a sitting president and/or some crimes may be not prosecutable because of the statute of limitations. Part of the special prosecutors rules are that if there are no indictments the details of the investigation should be kept secret to protect the target from unnecessary embarrassment.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... ss/585577/
The fact that this prosecutor, unlike other prosecutors, cannot indict if he finds an indictable offense may seem to put pressure on the attorney general to share the report with Congress, which can remedy presidential misconduct through impeachment.
But this unusual situation does not somehow work a repeal of well-established traditions of confidentiality. If the House wants to consider impeachment, it needs to do its own work. It would be odd in the extreme to ask, in effect, the executive branch to become a tool of the legislative branch in a death-struggle with the only individual identified in the Constitution as the possessor and wielder of executive power: the president. That was the old way, under the old statute. Congress did away with that approach, and wisely so.
Ironically, congress "did away with that approach, and wisely so" because of the partisan excesses of the author of this piece, Ken Starr.
Look for a battle to keep the Mueller report completely secret for as long as possible. It's conceivable that if Trump dies in office he may well have been found to commit crimes that the public will never hear about.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#3653

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sun Mar 24, 2019 10:47 am


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Re: The Trump Dump!

#3654

Post by Brive1987 » Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:56 am

I guess the finger is poised to flip the switch from Obama’s economy to Trump’s. :lol:

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#3655

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:09 pm


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Re: The Trump Dump!

#3656

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:19 pm



Of course, that's why Barr was chosen. And again, this is his summary. I'm sure he'll release the full report. :whistle:

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#3657

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:22 pm

Brive1987 wrote:
Old_ones wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 8:35 pm
Brive1987 wrote: [IMG.]http://i.imgur.com/ZS6tSiN.jpg[/IMG]

“No further indictments”

Sounds like Trump and his gang are on the mat.
(snip)
Submitted without comment.
Benjamin Wittes wrote: The president should wait before popping the champagne corks over this and tweeting in triumph. Yes, in the best-case scenario for the president, Mueller is not proceeding further because he lacks the evidence to do so. But even this possibility contains multitudes: everything from what the president calls “NO COLLUSION!” to evidence that falls just short of adequate to prove criminal conduct to a reasonable jury beyond a reasonable doubt—evidence that could still prove devastating if the conduct at issue becomes public.

There are other possibilities as well. It’s possible, for example, that Mueller is not proceeding against certain defendants other than the president because he has referred them to other prosecutorial offices; some of these referrals are already public, and it’s reasonable to expect there may be other referrals too. In this iteration, what is ending here is not the investigation, merely the portion of the investigation Mueller chose to retain for himself. It’s possible also that Mueller is finished because he has determined that while the evidence would support a prosecution of the president, he is bound by the Justice Department’s long-standing position that the president is not amenable to criminal process. On the obstruction front, he may well have concluded that, while the president acted to obstruct the investigation, he cannot prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the president’s obstructive acts were not exercises of Trump’s Article II powers. It’s also possible that Mueller has strong prudential reasons for not proceeding with otherwise viable cases.

...

Vindication for the president will take place only when we learn that the facts contained in the report exculpate him. The end of the Mueller probe could well prove tomorrow to be merely the creation of a factual record for the next act of this drama.
(emphasis mine)

https://www.lawfareblog.com/very-quick- ... estigation
Resubmitted without comment. Change of emphasis mine.

Ok I will do comment. For a bunch of dudes who I’ve cautioned to keep the squeals down till there is resolution, well it seems mighty odd that you are all “let’s wait and see” now.
That's because this isn't the resolution, you and other Trumpettes just want it to be one. Selective density.

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#3658

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:25 pm


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Re: The Trump Dump!

#3659

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:28 pm

It was said "wait until the report comes out," not "wait until the hand-picked AG that previously criticized the investigation releases a letter about his interpretations of the report."

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Re: The Trump Dump!

#3660

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:30 pm


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