Bleeding from the Bunghole

Continuation of the post at Abbie Smith's ERV blog (http://scienceblogs.com/erv/)

Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

Postby ianfc » Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:50 pm  •  [Post 20671]

From ekwhite's take on Lazy_Savant and Mykeru's SZ twitter exchange I'm guessing English is not ekwhite's 1st, 2nd or 3rd language
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7 November 2013 at 12:54 am (UTC -6)

Folks, I need to precede my comment with a big fat TRIGGER WARNING

If you have not seen Stephanie Svan’s blog today, she got a horrific death threat from someone on Twitter – @Lazy_Savant. The threat was chilling. If you do not have a strong stomach, you do not want to read this, but I think Stephanie could use a little support right now.


http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/10/17/thunderdome-37/comment-page-2/#comment-715587

And don't be a bigoted cunt and refer to Caine as the chief monitor.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/10/17/thunderdome-37/comment-page-2/#comment-715773
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Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

Postby mikelf » Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:00 pm  •  [Post 20672]

BarnOwl wrote:Speaking of life being hard for SJWs, PeeZus has a post up about his Clone's money troubles, and links to the following:

http://www.freezepage.com/1383852651IEAJQTXAAZ

Is it his highfalutin' eco-principles? Or is chronic laziness and the usual sense of entitlement and victimhood?

Ya know, Chris, there ARE ways to make a decent, steady income without selling out to evil corporations. In fact, you can work to protect the environment, preserve ecosystems and wild areas, help those who are truly victims of environmental injustice, identify the ways in which environmental toxins harm the health of humans and non-humans, conserve endangered species, design and develop sustainable technologies, and to be a part of any number of other activities that are, on the whole, green and eco-friendly.

Here's the dealio, though: you have to work. Whether you choose to collaborate and adapt your cancer research to include an environmental mutagenesis component (my choice), or to build your own environmental toxicology consulting business based on your EPA experience (a friend's choice), or whatever it is, you have to work.


I was thinking about this on my drive home and the only thing I can feel for Chris is pity. Not because I think I am superior to him because I make a decent living and will be able to retire while I can (presumably) still enjoy life. I've never really thought that way. I guess it is that Clarke is only now starting to realize the folly of "Fuck The Man! Smash The System!" 30 years later in life than most people.

I also shake my head at the notion that going to work for a corporation is necessarily selling out. As I believe I have mentioned previously, I work in oil and gas and there are plenty of companies in the industry that are interested in doing the right thing, have geniune concern for the well -being of their employees and communities, and try to operate in an environmentally friendly manner. But, it is hard to leave behind that juvenile black-white mindset that Clarke and Myers have, when your whole experience with the business world is with the bottom feeders and not the responsible operators. There are plenty of opportunities to work in the private sector without compromising your principles.
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Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

Postby Gumby » Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:04 pm  •  [Post 20673]

What @Lazy_Savant tweeted was pretty dumb. Not because it was a death threat - obviously it wasn't, only the intentional drama whores at FtB etc. pretend it is - but because it plays right into the infinitely dishonest victim narrative these dingbats flaunt. Zvan just took the lead in the persecution points game these pathetic bumblers are always playing. She's waddling around hoisting that tweet like a fucking trophy.
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Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

Postby Service Dog » Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:06 pm  •  [Post 20674]

ianfc wrote:
And don't be a bigoted cunt and refer to Caine as the chief monitor.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/10/17/thunderdome-37/comment-page-2/#comment-715773


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Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

Postby Badger3k » Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:07 pm  •  [Post 20675]

ianfc wrote:From ekwhite's take on Lazy_Savant and Mykeru's SZ twitter exchange I'm guessing English is not ekwhite's 1st, 2nd or 3rd language
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ekwhite

7 November 2013 at 12:54 am (UTC -6)

Folks, I need to precede my comment with a big fat TRIGGER WARNING

If you have not seen Stephanie Svan’s blog today, she got a horrific death threat from someone on Twitter – @Lazy_Savant. The threat was chilling. If you do not have a strong stomach, you do not want to read this, but I think Stephanie could use a little support right now.


http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/10/17/thunderdome-37/comment-page-2/#comment-715587

And don't be a bigoted cunt and refer to Caine as the chief monitor.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/10/17/thunderdome-37/comment-page-2/#comment-715773


Shoot. All they have to do is link to Clarke's "only joking" post, or say they were playing Cards Against Humanity. It's supposed to be offensive and is a get out of jail free card.
PZ Myers definition of irony - 8 October 2013 at 9:15 am (UTC -5) "You don’t get to simultaneously adopt a snide, superior tone AND claim that you’re a martyr"
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Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

Postby acathode » Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:14 pm  •  [Post 20676]

I don't get it, everyone is allowed to whine about their small, daily inconveniences on twitter, like draconian airport security, except Dawkins, because... magic patriarchy?
Can't these people be honest for just one minute and tell the truth: "-Dick! You said something, again! We would wish that you stopped doing that (speaking that is), because we simply dislike you very much!"

Also, just what is up with this "skeptic movement" and it's thing for booze parties, preferably with pimp/prostitute themes? And who thought it was a good idea to mix SJWs into that? Or did the SJWs come later?
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Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

Postby Gumby » Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:18 pm  •  [Post 20677]

[meta]

The infinitely dull John Morales is phlouncing Pharyngula?


http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... ent-715612

Caine seems to have a hate-on for him for some reason, calling him a poisonous bigot in that thread. Whatever happened seems to have started elsewhere. But Caine's huffy reaction to Rorschach calling her "chief monitor" is priceless. She's determined to milk that 1/128th Lakota blood for all it's worth.
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Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

Postby Sulman » Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:21 pm  •  [Post 20678]

Gumby wrote:What @Lazy_Savant tweeted was pretty dumb. Not because it was a death threat - obviously it wasn't, only the intentional drama whores at FtB etc. pretend it is - but because it plays right into the infinitely dishonest victim narrative these dingbats flaunt. Zvan just took the lead in the persecution points game these pathetic bumblers are always playing. She's waddling around hoisting that tweet like a fucking trophy.


That was my immediate thought. I knew full well she would hunt that down "Looking for reactions to my brother's photography" my arse. She name-searched herself.

Much as I do love this community, there's a definite downside in perpetually supplying the other team with ammunition.
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Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

Postby Michael J » Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:28 pm  •  [Post 20679]

spiffigt wrote:
Apples wrote:In Chris Clarke's "pity-me" post he claims to own one pair of socks.

That's more than a lot of people in this harsh world. He needs to check his privilege.

Luxury, I used to dream of owning a pair of socks - I used to have to wear used fish and chip paper as socks and I thought I was lucky (Said with a Yorkshire accent)
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Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

Postby Sulman » Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:30 pm  •  [Post 20680]

Gumby wrote:[meta]

The infinitely dull John Morales is phlouncing Pharyngula?


http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... ent-715612

Caine seems to have a hate-on for him for some reason, calling him a poisonous bigot in that thread. Whatever happened seems to have started elsewhere. But Caine's huffy reaction to Rorschach calling her "chief monitor" is priceless. She's determined to milk that 1/128th Lakota blood for all it's worth.


That thread reads like some curious psychological experiment where the standing orders are "Write what you wish, but whatever you do, there must be no humour involved whatsoever."
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Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

Postby Liesmith » Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:33 pm  •  [Post 20681]

Lsuoma wrote:
Matt Cavanaugh wrote:
Welch wrote:Threats of violence are ... almost always a sign of weakness - an attempt at bullying the other person into submission.


You deserve a rotting porcupine shoved up your rectum for that comment.

Salvor Hardin often said that violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. I disagree somewhat - I don't think it's ALWAYS the last refuge.



I have waited a long time to make this reference, because I thought it was too obscure:

PZ is like Golan Trevize: capable of reaching the right decision even without all (or any!) of the necessary data. Also, "right" is a social construct.
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Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

Postby BillHamp » Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:39 pm  •  [Post 20682]

I just wanted to point something out. I've been posting at another forum, totally unrelated to SJW, A+, atheism, or anthing else, and I have noticed something. The Pit is the only place where people don't bitch and moan about others being "snippy" or "saracastic," or anything else. No one runs to the mods to ask for a post to be removed or things to be "kept on topic." The result, you ask? This forum has the most salient threads with the most reasonable (read logical and thoughtful even if sarcastic at times) posts of any out there. In other words, it seems that hostility, real hostility, is the result of forum policy more than a lack of forum policy. Just my two cents. Maybe someone else has some thoughts on why this is.
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Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

Postby ianfc » Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:41 pm  •  [Post 20683]

Trying to imagine Lazy_SavantImage
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Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

Postby guet » Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:42 pm  •  [Post 20684]

ConcentratedH2O, OM wrote:Who's that rosy-cheeked little boy in all the photos?


that is Sean McCabe former Randi assistant and intern
http://www.zoominfo.com/p/Sean-McCabe/1307788352

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46HpiBYy84Y
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Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

Postby Aneris » Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:44 pm  •  [Post 20685]

@Service Dog... it might be hipster ironic, still WTF!?

Miss Murder Fantasy Caine, Chief Rape Apologist is also their Chief Monitor? That makes total sense. Someone needs to invent an irony meter that can deal with 10,000 μZvan, at least.

New: Horde considers other cultural backgrounds of posters, and refrains from dogpiling them entirely into the ground. A little progress.

[meta]
Morales seems to say adios.
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Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

Postby welch » Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:50 pm  •  [Post 20686]

Brive1987 wrote:Re profiling sans the "nested quotes of hell"

Harris doesn't say he can "see a jihadist" . You have turned his comment around and effectively knocked down the resulting construct.


If his words are that easily misinterpreted that badly, then maybe he should spend more time on the words he uses. his quote seems fairly clear to me. There's some way, based on categories that are utter bullshit like gender, race, mode of dress and companions, and some that aren't, like behavior, to tell not only if someone's a jihadist, but their fucking nationality. it's bollocks. You can keep trying to claim he didn't use the words he did, but they're right there. He gave gender and style of dress the same weight as behavior. that's fucking stupid.

Brive1987 wrote:He says there are reasonable (not infallible) grounds for not expending energy on certain categories of people - given resources, precedent and common sense. Not a 100% guarantee, just pragmatics.


yes. and then makes it pretty clear that the qualifiers for that category are a relatively narrow age range, a single sex, (male) and some magical bullshit based on skin color and the clothes you're wearing. it's idiocy.

Brive1987 wrote:And no what's left are not jihadists either. Just a group you may want to pay slightly more attention to, again based on the premise I outlined in my post.


you realize at this point, you've actually made a better point than harris did.

I hope that the quotes provided at least answer the charge that race is all Harris talks about or refers to.[/quote]
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Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

Postby Sulman » Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:52 pm  •  [Post 20687]

BillHamp wrote:I just wanted to point something out. I've been posting at another forum, totally unrelated to SJW, A+, atheism, or anthing else, and I have noticed something. The Pit is the only place where people don't bitch and moan about others being "snippy" or "saracastic," or anything else. No one runs to the mods to ask for a post to be removed or things to be "kept on topic." The result, you ask? This forum has the most salient threads with the most reasonable (read logical and thoughtful even if sarcastic at times) posts of any out there. In other words, it seems that hostility, real hostility, is the result of forum policy more than a lack of forum policy. Just my two cents. Maybe someone else has some thoughts on why this is.


I've no idea. I moderated a motorsports forum ten years back, and you can get people that are absolutely determined to stir shit and cause trouble, and furthermore enjoy trying to provoke admins. One response to that is being very strict with rules, and letting everyone know there isn't any leeway, but that is hard to do and take part at the same time because you will get trolled.

That being said, the community here seems full of pretty robust personalities that seem to do a pretty good job at policing themselves.
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Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

Postby welch » Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:54 pm  •  [Post 20688]

ianfc wrote:From ekwhite's take on Lazy_Savant and Mykeru's SZ twitter exchange I'm guessing English is not ekwhite's 1st, 2nd or 3rd language
609
ekwhite

7 November 2013 at 12:54 am (UTC -6)

Folks, I need to precede my comment with a big fat TRIGGER WARNING

If you have not seen Stephanie Svan’s blog today, she got a horrific death threat from someone on Twitter – @Lazy_Savant. The threat was chilling. If you do not have a strong stomach, you do not want to read this, but I think Stephanie could use a little support right now.


http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/10/17/thunderdome-37/comment-page-2/#comment-715587

And don't be a bigoted cunt and refer to Caine as the chief monitor.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/10/17/thunderdome-37/comment-page-2/#comment-715773


and if svan really feels that was a serious threat against her, I absolutely encourage her to report it to the authorities. As one does when one gets a serious threat against one's person or family.
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Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

Postby welch » Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:57 pm  •  [Post 20689]

mikelf wrote:
BarnOwl wrote:Speaking of life being hard for SJWs, PeeZus has a post up about his Clone's money troubles, and links to the following:

http://www.freezepage.com/1383852651IEAJQTXAAZ

Is it his highfalutin' eco-principles? Or is chronic laziness and the usual sense of entitlement and victimhood?

Ya know, Chris, there ARE ways to make a decent, steady income without selling out to evil corporations. In fact, you can work to protect the environment, preserve ecosystems and wild areas, help those who are truly victims of environmental injustice, identify the ways in which environmental toxins harm the health of humans and non-humans, conserve endangered species, design and develop sustainable technologies, and to be a part of any number of other activities that are, on the whole, green and eco-friendly.

Here's the dealio, though: you have to work. Whether you choose to collaborate and adapt your cancer research to include an environmental mutagenesis component (my choice), or to build your own environmental toxicology consulting business based on your EPA experience (a friend's choice), or whatever it is, you have to work.


I was thinking about this on my drive home and the only thing I can feel for Chris is pity. Not because I think I am superior to him because I make a decent living and will be able to retire while I can (presumably) still enjoy life. I've never really thought that way. I guess it is that Clarke is only now starting to realize the folly of "Fuck The Man! Smash The System!" 30 years later in life than most people.

I also shake my head at the notion that going to work for a corporation is necessarily selling out. As I believe I have mentioned previously, I work in oil and gas and there are plenty of companies in the industry that are interested in doing the right thing, have geniune concern for the well -being of their employees and communities, and try to operate in an environmentally friendly manner. But, it is hard to leave behind that juvenile black-white mindset that Clarke and Myers have, when your whole experience with the business world is with the bottom feeders and not the responsible operators. There are plenty of opportunities to work in the private sector without compromising your principles.


Yep. I mean for fuck's sake, I work for an advertising company. But even in that industry, as weird as it can be, I see a real attempt to do good. We regularly do pro bono work for local charities, from marketing campaigns to help them get more money in, to minor things like free website work or teaching them how to better use social media. I've worked for a company that did atmospheric science work, a lot of it in the area of pollution tracking. The only time I've ever not worked for a private company was the Air Force and a small municipality.

It is entirely possible to work in the private sector and not be part of a company that tries to fuck people over.
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Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

Postby welch » Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:00 pm  •  [Post 20690]

Aneris wrote:@Service Dog... it might be hipster ironic, still WTF!?

Miss Murder Fantasy Caine, Chief Rape Apologist is also their Chief Monitor? That makes total sense. Someone needs to invent an irony meter that can deal with 10,000 μZvan, at least.

New: Horde considers other cultural backgrounds of posters, and refrains from dogpiling them entirely into the ground. A little progress.

[meta]
Morales seems to say adios.


Caine just need heap big injun spear in her teepee more from brave with no taste.
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Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

Postby Sulman » Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:02 pm  •  [Post 20691]

welch wrote:
Aneris wrote:@Service Dog... it might be hipster ironic, still WTF!?

Miss Murder Fantasy Caine, Chief Rape Apologist is also their Chief Monitor? That makes total sense. Someone needs to invent an irony meter that can deal with 10,000 μZvan, at least.

New: Horde considers other cultural backgrounds of posters, and refrains from dogpiling them entirely into the ground. A little progress.

[meta]
Morales seems to say adios.


Caine just need heap big injun spear in her teepee more from brave with no taste.


OMG death threat
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Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

Postby Brive1987 » Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:05 pm  •  [Post 20692]

Caine:

I am sick to fucking death of being blamed for anything and everything. I am sick to fucking death of people thinking it’s perfectly okay to treat me in whatever demeaning manner which happens to amuse them at the time. If you happen to be one of those asswarts who wishes to do any of that, please, go fuck yourself.


Will she be the next Clarke? Sadly compelling watching how Pamela and Caine react respectively to being "harassed". I'm sure they both just to be be allowed to do good things.

Now back to being "broken" by Welch. ;)
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Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

Postby Rope apologist » Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:11 pm  •  [Post 20693]

Michael J wrote:
spiffigt wrote:
Apples wrote:In Chris Clarke's "pity-me" post he claims to own one pair of socks.

That's more than a lot of people in this harsh world. He needs to check his privilege.

Luxury, I used to dream of owning a pair of socks - I used to have to wear used fish and chip paper as socks and I thought I was lucky (Said with a Yorkshire accent)


I used to envy the man who had shoes.

Then I saw a man who had feet!
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Re: Oh No! Now I've Done It. Again

Postby Matt Cavanaugh » Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:37 pm  •  [Post 20694]

feralandproud wrote:
I just recently started following the online atheist/skeptic community(about 4 months ago). After literally like a week of reading blogs and following links I figured this shit out. If the average FtB "fan" doesn't at least check out the 'pit once in a while, I'll eat my goddamn hat. Willful ignorance is no excuse. They're exactly like schoolyard bullies. They can dish it out, but the second it's returned they're all, "Teacher! Teacher!" That applies to the wannabe celebutards and their fans. I'm so happy I found this place.
:D



Welcome. Check the lynx, etc. etc.

We dish it out and we take it.

When I first visited the 'Pit, I expected to find a bunch of MRAs who made puerile jokes and droned on and on about obscure topics. But I was wrong -- there are almost no MRAs here.
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Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

Postby Matt Cavanaugh » Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:47 pm  •  [Post 20695]

Would anyone here put it past that attention whore Svan to fake a death threat against herself?

laZy_SaVANt

Just sayin'.
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Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

Postby ConcentratedH2O, OM » Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:53 pm  •  [Post 20696]

guet wrote:
ConcentratedH2O, OM wrote:Who's that rosy-cheeked little boy in all the photos?


that is Sean McCabe former Randi assistant and intern
http://www.zoominfo.com/p/Sean-McCabe/1307788352

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46HpiBYy84Y


Thanks. Seems strange that one would employ a 12-year-old boy as a PA. :)
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Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

Postby ConcentratedH2O, OM » Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:54 pm  •  [Post 20697]

Gumby wrote:What @Lazy_Savant tweeted was pretty dumb. Not because it was a death threat - obviously it wasn't, only the intentional drama whores at FtB etc. pretend it is - but because it plays right into the infinitely dishonest victim narrative these dingbats flaunt. Zvan just took the lead in the persecution points game these pathetic bumblers are always playing. She's waddling around hoisting that tweet like a fucking trophy.



Beautiful imagery, as always Gumby! :lol: :clap:
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Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

Postby ConcentratedH2O, OM » Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:20 pm  •  [Post 20698]

Image

It seems like the stress of being Meyers's social justice conscience-by-proxy has got to Caine.

She has obviously driven herself into a chasing-the-tail mania by maintaining her relentless sentry position on the Phawrongula border patrol. This really is not surprising: the beliefs which she has are, like those of religious extremists, so logically fragile that to maintain them with perfection as she does will unavoidably lead to such fundamental contradictions as to cause most people's brains to seize up at some point. She has recently introduced Native American words into her posting vocabulary, probably (it seems to me) as an attempt to control yet another piece of the social justice high ground amongst Phawrongula Horde. This has led to an explosion over use of the word "chief" (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/chief), which she saw as a personal attack on the newly-acquired pride in her Native American heritage. Her brain has fried itself trying to reconcile reality with her ideal world.
"Tone trolling? Really? You find the particular arrangement of four letters in a word more detrimental to discourse than sneering assholes showing up to argue with women about their right to autonomy?"
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Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

Postby justinvacula » Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:20 pm  •  [Post 20699]

New website womenformen.org launches founded by Suzanne Venker, Dr. Helen Smith, Christina Hoff Sommers

“I used to consider myself a feminist but mistakenly thought feminism meant equality between the sexes. In today’s culture, it means female privilege, and I believe discrimination against men is every bit as bad as discrimination against women—and I want no part of it,” writes Dr. Helen Smith in Men on Strike.

http://womenformen.org/about-4/

http://womenformen.org/mission/
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Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

Postby AndrewV69 » Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:22 pm  •  [Post 20700]

So is this the "Death Threat"?



Does not look as if it was actually tweeted to the black swan (to me anyway).
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Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

Postby Karmakin » Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:44 pm  •  [Post 20701]

Gumby wrote:What @Lazy_Savant tweeted was pretty dumb. Not because it was a death threat - obviously it wasn't, only the intentional drama whores at FtB etc. pretend it is - but because it plays right into the infinitely dishonest victim narrative these dingbats flaunt. Zvan just took the lead in the persecution points game these pathetic bumblers are always playing. She's waddling around hoisting that tweet like a fucking trophy.



It's what I said on twitter. Zvan is a troll. Don't feed the fucking trolls. I understand it's fun sometimes. Really I do. But there's a definite cost in terms of our collective sanity when you do that. It's simply not worth it.
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Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

Postby AndrewV69 » Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:45 pm  •  [Post 20702]

Gumby wrote:[meta]

The infinitely dull John Morales is phlouncing Pharyngula?


http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... ent-715612

Caine seems to have a hate-on for him for some reason, calling him a poisonous bigot in that thread. Whatever happened seems to have started elsewhere. But Caine's huffy reaction to Rorschach calling her "chief monitor" is priceless. She's determined to milk that 1/128th Lakota blood for all it's worth.


Sounds more like a mea culpa.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... ent-715612

buh-byeMorales.png


I will reserve final judgement till I actually see the comment he made that he thinks he has to leave but with that said my thoughts are:

I noticed back around Elevatorgate that Morales appeared to be a lot smarter than most of the Horde, but he also seemed to consistently overestimate how quick on the uptake most of them are.

He also appeared to me to hold more than a few of his fellow Horde in contempt. Actually, Morales seems to hold most people in contempt but his education appears to have some holes in in. Specifically he does not appear to be well grounded in the Classics. He actually appears to know even less than I do.

My insults seemingly went whizzing right over his head, which amused me no end, seeing I was always under the impression he considered himself the smartest guy in the room.

(In case you are wondering, no ... I do not think I am all that smart either ... but just enough to see that Morales thinks he is).

So, anyone know exactly which comment he made that he thinks he has to leave over?
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Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

Postby Brive1987 » Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:16 pm  •  [Post 20703]

AndrewV69 wrote:
Gumby wrote:[meta]

The infinitely dull John Morales is phlouncing Pharyngula?


http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... ent-715612

Caine seems to have a hate-on for him for some reason, calling him a poisonous bigot in that thread. Whatever happened seems to have started elsewhere. But Caine's huffy reaction to Rorschach calling her "chief monitor" is priceless. She's determined to milk that 1/128th Lakota blood for all it's worth.


Sounds more like a mea culpa.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... ent-715612

buh-byeMorales.png


I will reserve final judgement till I actually see the comment he made that he thinks he has to leave but with that said my thoughts are:

I noticed back around Elevatorgate that Morales appeared to be a lot smarter than most of the Horde, but he also seemed to consistently overestimate how quick on the uptake most of them are.

He also appeared to me to hold more than a few of his fellow Horde in contempt. Actually, Morales seems to hold most people in contempt but his education appears to have some holes in in. Specifically he does not appear to be well grounded in the Classics. He actually appears to know even less than I do.

My insults seemingly went whizzing right over his head, which amused me no end, seeing I was always under the impression he considered himself the smartest guy in the room.

(In case you are wondering, no ... I do not think I am all that smart either ... but just enough to see that Morales thinks he is).

So, anyone know exactly which comment he made that he thinks he has to leave over?


I only see 1x comment on the NSC thread:

I respect and salute NSC, who has a corpus of top-tier-videos.
(As for those about whom he speaks… I’m pretty sure that I’m not the only one who sniggers at their hopeful conceit that their pretense of being on it is but for the yuks may be even slightly credible to anyone with half-a-clue)


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Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

Postby AndrewV69 » Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:30 pm  •  [Post 20704]

ConcentratedH2O, OM wrote:Image

It seems like the stress of being Meyers's social justice conscience-by-proxy has got to Caine.

She has obviously driven herself into a chasing-the-tail mania by maintaining her relentless sentry position on the Phawrongula border patrol. This really is not surprising: the beliefs which she has are, like those of religious extremists, so logically fragile that to maintain them with perfection as she does will unavoidably lead to such fundamental contradictions as to cause most people's brains to seize up at some point. She has recently introduced Native American words into her posting vocabulary, probably (it seems to me) as an attempt to control yet another piece of the social justice high ground amongst Phawrongula Horde. This has led to an explosion over use of the word "chief" (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/chief), which she saw as a personal attack on the newly-acquired pride in her Native American heritage. Her brain has fried itself trying to reconcile reality with her ideal world.


Well, this is pretty funny if only for the lack of introspection by Cain :
I am sick to fucking death of being blamed for anything and everything. I am sick to fucking death of people thinking it’s perfectly okay to treat me in whatever demeaning manner which happens to amuse them at the time. If you happen to be one of those asswarts who wishes to do any of that, please, go fuck yourself.


Do onto others Cain. Do onto others as you would have them do unto you. Right? Right?

Seems to me Cain has a track record of dishing it out, but appears to be unable to take it?
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Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

Postby ianfc » Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:35 pm  •  [Post 20705]

I recall a incident, couple of months ago, on Tdome involving Myers, Morales and SGBM but can't recall specifics. Myers was defending a friend' maybe Clarke, and made a couple of comments directed to Morales and SGBM, something like cleaning out the cage and preferring friends to arseholes he has to let in the door. Morales and SGBM have posted little or nothing since then.
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Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

Postby James Caruthers » Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:38 pm  •  [Post 20706]

Sulman wrote:
Gumby wrote:What @Lazy_Savant tweeted was pretty dumb. Not because it was a death threat - obviously it wasn't, only the intentional drama whores at FtB etc. pretend it is - but because it plays right into the infinitely dishonest victim narrative these dingbats flaunt. Zvan just took the lead in the persecution points game these pathetic bumblers are always playing. She's waddling around hoisting that tweet like a fucking trophy.


That was my immediate thought. I knew full well she would hunt that down "Looking for reactions to my brother's photography" my arse. She name-searched herself.

Much as I do love this community, there's a definite downside in perpetually supplying the other team with ammunition.

It's going to happen with or without it. It doesn't matter one bit of the pitt is here or not. The only thing the pitt does is give these drama whores a fall-back place to go when they want to inflate their egos and get pity points (and can't find anything elsewhere at the moment). Most of the time, they pull their victim narrative from something said on twatter, youtube, dickstarter, or even from news articles and interviews. And with these crazy shithouse rats scurrying off to ego-search who knows how often per week, they can't NOT find something to fit their victim narrative and justify their own bullying, attempted firing, and doxxing of others.

Oh and I found this today. Figures someone made one of these before I could.

Image
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Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

Postby BarnOwl » Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:55 pm  •  [Post 20707]

mikelf wrote:I also shake my head at the notion that going to work for a corporation is necessarily selling out. As I believe I have mentioned previously, I work in oil and gas and there are plenty of companies in the industry that are interested in doing the right thing, have geniune concern for the well -being of their employees and communities, and try to operate in an environmentally friendly manner. But, it is hard to leave behind that juvenile black-white mindset that Clarke and Myers have, when your whole experience with the business world is with the bottom feeders and not the responsible operators. There are plenty of opportunities to work in the private sector without compromising your principles.


Exactly this - their mindset and judgments are immature and simplistic, and often based on willful ignorance. They can't even be arsed to inform themselves about tools that others have developed (e.g. GoodGuide) to identify and sort businesses and products based on environmental responsibility.

I don't for a minute believe that any one of them is 100% evil and unprincipled or 100% good and principled. Part of growing up and dealing with the real world is to learn to pick your battles and sort your ethical priorities. I like most of Clarke's environmental writing that I've read, and in agreement on many of the issues. I'm a treehugger and birdwatcher who lives in a semi-arid region that's experiencing unsustainable growth and (gulp) fracking, and who's written more than a few blog posts on environmental issues and natural history. However, by the black-and-white classification scheme of Myers and Clarke, I'm 100% unethical, unprincipled evil. :roll:
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Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

Postby John Greg » Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:07 am  •  [Post 20708]

Caine is fucking hilarious, Her degree of raging self-importance is a joke that never quits.
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Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

Postby ConcentratedH2O, OM » Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:02 am  •  [Post 20709]

John Greg wrote:Caine is fucking hilarious, Her degree of raging self-importance is a joke that never quits.


I believe that she and the few remaining commenters on Meyers's blog just don't understand what nasty fuckers they are. Nasty, manipulative, mendacious fuckers. This is why the Downfall parodies by whatshisname are so funny: the remnants of the Horde, and Meyers, are exactly like a sad, old, failed dictator sat in a bunker screaming to the world that this is how it should be, and you are all wrong, of you could just see how perfect our world would be...

Oh, PZ Meyers. With your years-in-the-making book, and your dwindling shreds of followers: are you proud? Are you satisfied? Are you a happy atheist? Bless your weak heart, I really don't think you are. I think you are a bitter little white old man, whose time came, but passed like a fart in the wind. And that makes you oh so (impotently) angry.

SMH, as the kids say nowadays.

SMFH.
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Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

Postby ROBOKiTTY » Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:09 am  •  [Post 20710]

ConcentratedH2O, OM wrote:I believe that she and the few remaining commenters on Meyers's blog just don't understand what nasty fuckers they are. Nasty, manipulative, mendacious fuckers. This is why the Downfall parodies by whatshisname are so funny: the remnants of the Horde, and Meyers, are exactly like a sad, old, failed dictator sat in a bunker screaming to the world that this is how it should be, and you are all wrong, of you could just see how perfect our world would be...


I believe that rumbling is the master satirical filmmaker Gefan is rolling in his grave.
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Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

Postby ROBOKiTTY » Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:10 am  •  [Post 20711]

Grammar phail again. One of these days, I'll start taking preview seriously.
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Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

Postby Dick Strawkins » Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:23 am  •  [Post 20712]

Is that sociopathic numbskull wowbagger some kind of masochist?

Here's his latest self induced kick to his own testicles on the Butterflies and Wheels thread about the 'shocking' fat joke death-threat to Svan.

Image

Do we really need to run through groundhog day again with this one?

Wowbagger says the other side are the ones making sociopathic threats.
Someone points out that wowbaggers own 'die in a fire, I really mean that' threat sounds more serious than anything offered as proof of the evil of the non FTB side.
Wowbagger flies into a rage and says "it was only that one time, I apologised and never did it again!"
Someone then points out that he has been screencapped making exactly the same threats on other occasions.
More rage, and the subject is swiftly changed.


And even if we ignore wowbagger's die in a fire threats (although the fun to be had from provoking his predictably hysterical reaction makes this an impossibility) there are dozens of similar and even worse threats that have been made by the pharyngulites.

http://slymepit.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=256
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Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

Postby James Caruthers » Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:27 am  •  [Post 20713]

The newest south park gives a very cutting satire of social justice warriors. At least, if I'm reading it right. Kyle literally goes around sucking Cartman's farts and then acting like he's a fucking saint for doing it, because he believes he is the cause of peace in the middle east. The reality is that he ends up fucking everything up because he has his own preconceived notions about religious people being ignorant and stupid.

I don't know if Matt and Trey were going after SJWs, but who knows.
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Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

Postby Trophy » Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:37 am  •  [Post 20714]

Dick Strawkins wrote:Image
Image


Analyzing mere pictures of a party that none of us has attended is not really very reliable, however, now that I take a closer look at the two pictures above, Shermer's body language fits the kind of guy who pushes too hard in flirting and hitting on women.

The first picture: He has his arm wrapped around her but we don't see her other hand and it seems it's dangling by her side, sandwiched between her and him. If true, it means she was not interested in "hugging him" (which would have been an implicit nod from her to escalate the level of intimacy). Also, there's a gap between Shermer and DJ and the picture doesn't look like a group photo.

The second picture: Shermer is now grabbing her very firmly and there is no way for her to get away unless she uses some level of physical force. Again, that's very consistent with a guy who hits heavily on women and who uses some level of "force" (typical examples are guys who don't let their target get away without some level of force; they hold her hand, or hold her in a tight embrace in dancing, etc.). And in this picture there is no group. There is "cover". If you look at this picture you see a couple and another guy who awkwardly stands away.

The combination of these two pictures is damning for Shermer. It shows that he had his arm wrapped around her for some time, at least long enough for two pictures in two different configurations to be taken. This in turn means that the wrapped arm was not done in a moment of "excitement" or "happiness" or any other reading that doesn't have sexual undertones. In other words, you can't say "Maybe he was happy to see her so he hugged her" or "they were just taking pictures and he was being friendly". On the other hand, I don't see any evidence that she reciprocated any of this.

So basically, I'm not rejecting any other reading of these pictures but I'm saying that the reading that is most consistent (at least in my opinion) is the one in which Shermer was heavily hitting on her against her obvious disinterest, and most likely with some level of force.
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Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

Postby Skep tickle » Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:40 am  •  [Post 20715]

There are a couple of Storifies re @LazySavant's joke that bombed.

Here, @ool0n does chide @LazySavant, albeit pretty mildly: http://storify.com/elevatorgate/conversation-with-lazysavant-ool0n-and-aratina

Another Storify I saw earlier added in a comment that @LazySavant & @ool0n often banter around on twitter; I haven't checked that out for veracity, but it does look like it just in the past day or two.

As @LazySavant has subsequently pointed out, he was make reference to a movie - the "woman suit" scenario is from Silence of the Lambs.



Anyway, the last tweet in the Storify linked above is @aratina advising that if @LazySavant just apologizes to @szvan and deletes the tweet, everything'll be fine. :snooty:

Surprise surprise, @LazySavant has been added to the Block Bot, level 2: http://storify.com/The_Block_Bot/38959986

And:


Later there's a joking exchange with @RichSandersen, @oolon, @hyperdeath128k, @saramayhew (whose account is still suspended), & one other person in which Rich S jokes that Aratina wants Sara Mayhew dead (related to someone trying to delete Sara Mayhew's wikipedia page, whether that's true or also a joke); @aratina has retweeted it:


(The exchange went on w/ someone asking whether Rich S was using hyperbole or his usual, "being full of shit", with Aratina assuring it was the latter.)

It's like a soap opera. So hard to follow who's talking to, versus shunning, who - and why. And whether or not it's okay to make jokes about women & death - turns out that may depend who the joke is about, and/or what the joke-maker's intent is assumed to be. Quelle surprise.
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Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

Postby Dick Strawkins » Fri Nov 08, 2013 2:05 am  •  [Post 20716]

Trophy wrote:
Dick Strawkins wrote:Image
Image


Analyzing mere pictures of a party that none of us has attended is not really very reliable, however, now that I take a closer look at the two pictures above, Shermer's body language fits the kind of guy who pushes too hard in flirting and hitting on women.

The first picture: He has his arm wrapped around her but we don't see her other hand and it seems it's dangling by her side, sandwiched between her and him. If true, it means she was not interested in "hugging him" (which would have been an implicit nod from her to escalate the level of intimacy). Also, there's a gap between Shermer and DJ and the picture doesn't look like a group photo.

The second picture: Shermer is now grabbing her very firmly and there is no way for her to get away unless she uses some level of physical force. Again, that's very consistent with a guy who hits heavily on women and who uses some level of "force" (typical examples are guys who don't let their target get away without some level of force; they hold her hand, or hold her in a tight embrace in dancing, etc.). And in this picture there is no group. There is "cover". If you look at this picture you see a couple and another guy who awkwardly stands away.

The combination of these two pictures is damning for Shermer. It shows that he had his arm wrapped around her for some time, at least long enough for two pictures in two different configurations to be taken. This in turn means that the wrapped arm was not done in a moment of "excitement" or "happiness" or any other reading that doesn't have sexual undertones. In other words, you can't say "Maybe he was happy to see her so he hugged her" or "they were just taking pictures and he was being friendly". On the other hand, I don't see any evidence that she reciprocated any of this.

So basically, I'm not rejecting any other reading of these pictures but I'm saying that the reading that is most consistent (at least in my opinion) is the one in which Shermer was heavily hitting on her against her obvious disinterest, and most likely with some level of force.


If you are saying that Shermer is acting overly familiar with her, especially as it's their first meeting, then I would have to agree. I'm not a touchy-feely-huggy type of person myself and would never think of putting my arm around someone who I didn't know. I can understand why someone might consider him as acting in a creepy way. As for using 'some level of force', I'm not sure I would put it like that. The party seemed to be fairly crowded and she was there with a lot of friends - there are plenty of pictures of her with her arms around various men and touching them in a far more intimate manner than Shermer is pictured. Would it be fair to say that she was using some level of force on them? Probably not.
My point about the pictures was about a specific remark of hers - that he lunged at her breasts at the moment of their introduction (and the related remarks connected to Grothe and Drescher saying that his friends seperated him from her when they noticed he was drunk and might do something inappropriate.)
That part of the story doesn't seem to fit the evidence.
All we can probably say about the entire incident is that it appears like a lot of the higher echelons of skepticism regularly socialize with enough alcohol in their systems to cause them to behave like drunken freshers at their first college party (and this includes Shermer, Grothe, Phil Plait, Pamela Gay herself, and various assorted D-list skeptics/skepchicks.)
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Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

Postby Cunt of Personality » Fri Nov 08, 2013 2:21 am  •  [Post 20717]

Image

Sheesh, get some perspective; there's no need to head off the reservation.
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Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

Postby Brive1987 » Fri Nov 08, 2013 2:28 am  •  [Post 20718]

Caine: stop being a moderator - problem goes away.

"Wait, umm, no"
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Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

Postby Brive1987 » Fri Nov 08, 2013 2:30 am  •  [Post 20719]

Sorry "monitor"
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Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

Postby Skep tickle » Fri Nov 08, 2013 2:38 am  •  [Post 20720]

Trophy wrote:<photos snipped>
Analyzing mere pictures of a party that none of us has attended is not really very reliable, however, now that I take a closer look at the two pictures above, Shermer's body language fits the kind of guy who pushes too hard in flirting and hitting on women.

The first picture: He has his arm wrapped around her but we don't see her other hand and it seems it's dangling by her side, sandwiched between her and him. If true, it means she was not interested in "hugging him" (which would have been an implicit nod from her to escalate the level of intimacy). Also, there's a gap between Shermer and DJ and the picture doesn't look like a group photo.

The second picture: Shermer is now grabbing her very firmly and there is no way for her to get away unless she uses some level of physical force. Again, that's very consistent with a guy who hits heavily on women and who uses some level of "force" (typical examples are guys who don't let their target get away without some level of force; they hold her hand, or hold her in a tight embrace in dancing, etc.). And in this picture there is no group. There is "cover". If you look at this picture you see a couple and another guy who awkwardly stands away.

The combination of these two pictures is damning for Shermer. It shows that he had his arm wrapped around her for some time, at least long enough for two pictures in two different configurations to be taken. This in turn means that the wrapped arm was not done in a moment of "excitement" or "happiness" or any other reading that doesn't have sexual undertones. In other words, you can't say "Maybe he was happy to see her so he hugged her" or "they were just taking pictures and he was being friendly". On the other hand, I don't see any evidence that she reciprocated any of this.

So basically, I'm not rejecting any other reading of these pictures but I'm saying that the reading that is most consistent (at least in my opinion) is the one in which Shermer was heavily hitting on her against her obvious disinterest, and most likely with some level of force.

I think that's reading too much into it. From no place private, just the wild web:

I didn't find many photos of Shermer hugging people, but there are a bunch of him alone, posing or pondering or whatever. Here's Shermer hugging a woman after a lecture he gave in 3/2012, from here; she refers to herself and another man as having had a wonderful time at the event (so, no hint of concern; the man she was with might have been the person who took the photo, but that's not clear; no sign of alcohol)
Image

Here, Shermer does appear to have a fairly firm grip with his right arm & hand. Maybe that's just the way he hugs. Handshakes can vary from very firm to very limp; why couldn't hugs be like that too? Or maybe he only hugs women and he only does so more firmly than whatever "norm" there might be; can one generalize & say that's inappropriate? (As opposed to, he's hugging someone firmly and they tell him they don't want him to, but he continues - that would be inappropriate.)

On the other hand, there are quite a few photos of PG hugging people, which probably mostly reflects the circumstances in which photos of her have been taken that have ended up on the internet. Phil Plait has a bunch of them. If you're going to do armchair analysis of snapshots of hugs, might as well include these:

TAM 2012 (in the hallway outside the meeting rooms - not at that party):
Image

2005, labeled "me_Pamela_podcast"
Image

2010 TAM Australia
Image

So maybe she's a person who's more likely than some to engage in a hug with people, and particularly feels comfortable with large areas of contact with someone who's been a friend & colleague (in skeptical-astronomy) for years, and others might observe that (say in a party situation) and interpret it in ways she didn't intend. (Just saying 'maybe'. People being people, and all. And, no, that's not an excuse to grab for someone's breast....or chest...nor to maintain contact when they're trying to pull away, assuming you notice that's what they're doing).
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Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

Postby Phil_Giordana_FCD » Fri Nov 08, 2013 2:44 am  •  [Post 20721]

Gumby wrote:What @Lazy_Savant tweeted was pretty dumb. Not because it was a death threat - obviously it wasn't, only the intentional drama whores at FtB etc. pretend it is - but because it plays right into the infinitely dishonest victim narrative these dingbats flaunt. Zvan just took the lead in the persecution points game these pathetic bumblers are always playing. She's waddling around hoisting that tweet like a fucking trophy.


I think a worst crime is that it wasn't even funny. I'm ok with lots of bullshit as long as it's funny.

Regarding TSA at airports: I call bullshit on the whole thing. If it is meant to fend off terrorist attacks, why is it not implemented in train stations as well? Sure, you can't run a train into a building, but your average TGV carries about 1000 people at 360km/h. And there is no security check, anyone could board a fucking train with a fucking bomb in their backpack.

So, what's the catch?
"It is science we are talking about here. It doesn't matter if you like the person making the argument. Sometimes the evidence supports the nice people and sometimes complete bastards are on the correct side of a scientific argument." -Strawkins
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Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

Postby Phil_Giordana_FCD » Fri Nov 08, 2013 2:56 am  •  [Post 20722]

Michael J wrote:
spiffigt wrote:
Apples wrote:In Chris Clarke's "pity-me" post he claims to own one pair of socks.

That's more than a lot of people in this harsh world. He needs to check his privilege.

Luxury, I used to dream of owning a pair of socks - I used to have to wear used fish and chip paper as socks and I thought I was lucky (Said with a Yorkshire accent)


Fish and chip paper? You snobbish cunt! I used to wear used fish and chip. Uphill. Both ways.
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Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

Postby Dick Strawkins » Fri Nov 08, 2013 2:59 am  •  [Post 20723]

Skep tickle wrote:
Here, Shermer does appear to have a fairly firm grip with his right arm & hand. Maybe that's just the way he hugs. Handshakes can vary from very firm to very limp; why couldn't hugs be like that too? Or maybe he only hugs women and he only does so more firmly than whatever "norm" there might be; can one generalize & say that's inappropriate? (As opposed to, he's hugging someone firmly and they tell him they don't want him to, but he continues - that would be inappropriate.)




There's a picture of Shermer hugging at least one other person at the same event.

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Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

Postby Trophy » Fri Nov 08, 2013 3:15 am  •  [Post 20724]

Dick Strawkins wrote:If you are saying that Shermer is acting overly familiar with her, especially as it's their first meeting, then I would have to agree. I'm not a touchy-feely-huggy type of person myself and would never think of putting my arm around someone who I didn't know. I can understand why someone might consider him as acting in a creepy way.


My point is that I really don't know how else to interpret extended physical contact in that context (that is, a party with booze). Having someone else's arm around you for a longer time than other social contracts require is flirtatious. Just try to imagine yourself in a similar situation.

As for using 'some level of force', I'm not sure I would put it like that. The party seemed to be fairly crowded and she was there with a lot of friends - there are plenty of pictures of her with her arms around various men and touching them in a far more intimate manner than Shermer is pictured. Would it be fair to say that she was using some level of force on them? Probably not.


1) There is a difference between putting your hand *on* someone else's shoulder and putting your arm *around* them. In the first case, the person can break away the physical contact by very minor movements, for example, she can shift her body just a few centimeters away and then he wouldn't be able to keep his hand on her. However, if he has his arm wrapped around her, she has to make a move forceful physical activity to break away or she has to explicity mention that she wants to get away (e.g., "I think I'll just go and get a drink"). Force doesn't always mean "he held her down and stick it to her".

2) The existence of *one* picture does not say much. People could be posing for that one picture. She could be putting her hand on other people for the cameras, without any sexual innuendos. People do that all the time. However, if you show me another picture in which she still has her hand on Phil's chest in which she is not posing for the cameras, then I would be concluding the exact same thing regarding her behavior.

3) The existence of the other pictures of her touching other guys means that she is not afraid or uncomfortable touching other men or being "touchy feely", which in return makes the lack of mutual "touching" in the first two pictures a bit more significant.

My point about the pictures was about a specific remark of hers - that he lunged at her breasts at the moment of their introduction (and the related remarks connected to Grothe and Drescher saying that his friends seperated him from her when they noticed he was drunk and might do something inappropriate.)


I'm not surprised. Human memory is not reliable and we are not expected to get all the details right but just because she doesn't get all the details wrong doesn't mean she is making it all up or that everything else that she describes is also wrong. For example, it is possible (again, this is just hypothetical) that Shermer was being too pushy and was crossing the line and she was uncomfortable and tipsy and now remembers it as him trying to go for a feel.

The whole point is that she could be wrong but based on those pictures, I would not let Shermer completely off the hook yet.
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Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

Postby Trophy » Fri Nov 08, 2013 3:27 am  •  [Post 20725]

Skep tickle wrote:I think that's reading too much into it. From no place private, just the wild web:

I didn't find many photos of Shermer hugging people, but there are a bunch of him alone, posing or pondering or whatever. Here's Shermer hugging a woman after a lecture he gave in 3/2012, from here; she refers to herself and another man as having had a wonderful time at the event (so, no hint of concern; the man she was with might have been the person who took the photo, but that's not clear; no sign of alcohol)
Image

Here, Shermer does appear to have a fairly firm grip with his right arm & hand. Maybe that's just the way he hugs. Handshakes can vary from very firm to very limp; why couldn't hugs be like that too? Or maybe he only hugs women and he only does so more firmly than whatever "norm" there might be; can one generalize & say that's inappropriate? (As opposed to, he's hugging someone firmly and they tell him they don't want him to, but he continues - that would be inappropriate.)

On the other hand, there are quite a few photos of PG hugging people, which probably mostly reflects the circumstances in which photos of her have been taken that have ended up on the internet. Phil Plait has a bunch of them. If you're going to do armchair analysis of snapshots of hugs, might as well include these:

TAM 2012 (in the hallway outside the meeting rooms - not at that party):
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2005, labeled "me_Pamela_podcast"
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2010 TAM Australia
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So maybe she's a person who's more likely than some to engage in a hug with people, and particularly feels comfortable with large areas of contact with someone who's been a friend & colleague (in skeptical-astronomy) for years, and others might observe that (say in a party situation) and interpret it in ways she didn't intend. (Just saying 'maybe'. People being people, and all. And, no, that's not an excuse to grab for someone's breast....or chest...nor to maintain contact when they're trying to pull away, assuming you notice that's what they're doing).


First I agree that it's not reliable to read too much into these pictures so I'm completely aware of the caveats. However, as I explained to Strawkins, people pose for cameras and it's ridiculous to read too much into those poses. They might be doing very sexual gestures without it mean anything outside the pictures. All of the pictures shown in your post are in the category of people posing for the camera. For example, take the first picture. I could completely accept that it is a momentary friendly hug. Now, imagine a second picture taken from a different angle in which the couple are not posing for the camera, with Shermer still having his arm wrapped around her. You'll conclude that obviously something is going on. Or take the second picture. The couple on the left have an intimate embrace but it doesn't necessarily mean anything is going on between them.

I didn't make my point on only one picture. I made it on the combination of two pictures taken in two different angles and in two different contexts and I'm not even advocating that it "proves almosst surely that Shermer is guilty." Nope. I'm just saying that his behavior is consistent with the behavior of a very pushy guy. It might not mean shit but I wouldn't let him off the hook and the more people collaborate on his supposed shitty behavior, the less likely the innocent readings become.
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Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

Postby Dick Strawkins » Fri Nov 08, 2013 3:29 am  •  [Post 20726]

Trophy wrote:
Dick Strawkins wrote:If you are saying that Shermer is acting overly familiar with her, especially as it's their first meeting, then I would have to agree. I'm not a touchy-feely-huggy type of person myself and would never think of putting my arm around someone who I didn't know. I can understand why someone might consider him as acting in a creepy way.


My point is that I really don't know how else to interpret extended physical contact in that context (that is, a party with booze). Having someone else's arm around you for a longer time than other social contracts require is flirtatious. Just try to imagine yourself in a similar situation.

As for using 'some level of force', I'm not sure I would put it like that. The party seemed to be fairly crowded and she was there with a lot of friends - there are plenty of pictures of her with her arms around various men and touching them in a far more intimate manner than Shermer is pictured. Would it be fair to say that she was using some level of force on them? Probably not.


1) There is a difference between putting your hand *on* someone else's shoulder and putting your arm *around* them. In the first case, the person can break away the physical contact by very minor movements, for example, she can shift her body just a few centimeters away and then he wouldn't be able to keep his hand on her. However, if he has his arm wrapped around her, she has to make a move forceful physical activity to break away or she has to explicity mention that she wants to get away (e.g., "I think I'll just go and get a drink"). Force doesn't always mean "he held her down and stick it to her".

2) The existence of *one* picture does not say much. People could be posing for that one picture. She could be putting her hand on other people for the cameras, without any sexual innuendos. People do that all the time. However, if you show me another picture in which she still has her hand on Phil's chest in which she is not posing for the cameras, then I would be concluding the exact same thing regarding her behavior.

3) The existence of the other pictures of her touching other guys means that she is not afraid or uncomfortable touching other men or being "touchy feely", which in return makes the lack of mutual "touching" in the first two pictures a bit more significant.

My point about the pictures was about a specific remark of hers - that he lunged at her breasts at the moment of their introduction (and the related remarks connected to Grothe and Drescher saying that his friends seperated him from her when they noticed he was drunk and might do something inappropriate.)


I'm not surprised. Human memory is not reliable and we are not expected to get all the details right but just because she doesn't get all the details wrong doesn't mean she is making it all up or that everything else that she describes is also wrong. For example, it is possible (again, this is just hypothetical) that Shermer was being too pushy and was crossing the line and she was uncomfortable and tipsy and now remembers it as him trying to go for a feel.

The whole point is that she could be wrong but based on those pictures, I would not let Shermer completely off the hook yet.


My interpretation of what SHE is doing in both of those pictures is that she is posing for a photograph.
If you look at her eyes it appears that she is looking towards something in particular on both occasions (everyone in the first picture is obviously doing the same thing - posing for a photo.)
In the second picture she has the same look on her face, as if someone she is looking towards is about to take her picture.
That would explain why she might be standing next to the famous guy and also why he might have his arm around her (lots of people want to get their photo taken with famous people - or with people in cool costumes.)
I think that is the simplest explanation, and without the accusations flying around I think that is what most neutral people would conclude from the photos.
I think it is fair to say we don't have the full story. Something else happened that is not shown here, but we do at least have some background provided to the event.
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Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

Postby Dick Strawkins » Fri Nov 08, 2013 3:33 am  •  [Post 20727]

The real problem with that Dragoncon event is that we didn't have someone like Rebecca Watson there, providing the kind of high minded and classy example for which she is deservedly famous.

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Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

Postby Brive1987 » Fri Nov 08, 2013 3:44 am  •  [Post 20728]

Phil_Giordana_FCD wrote:
Gumby wrote:What @Lazy_Savant tweeted was pretty dumb. Not because it was a death threat - obviously it wasn't, only the intentional drama whores at FtB etc. pretend it is - but because it plays right into the infinitely dishonest victim narrative these dingbats flaunt. Zvan just took the lead in the persecution points game these pathetic bumblers are always playing. She's waddling around hoisting that tweet like a fucking trophy.


I think a worst crime is that it wasn't even funny. I'm ok with lots of bullshit as long as it's funny.

Regarding TSA at airports: I call bullshit on the whole thing. If it is meant to fend off terrorist attacks, why is it not implemented in train stations as well? Sure, you can't run a train into a building, but your average TGV carries about 1000 people at 360km/h. And there is no security check, anyone could board a fucking train with a fucking bomb in their backpack.

So, what's the catch?


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The universe seems neither benign nor hostile, merely indifferent.
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Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

Postby Phil_Giordana_FCD » Fri Nov 08, 2013 3:51 am  •  [Post 20729]

FFS! When touring I get hugged, embraced or otherwise touched by loads of people for pictures. It seems to be a normal thing when you are more or less prominent in some field. And I hug/embrace/touch the person back when it happens, and no one is the worse for it. It's happy and convivial. I once signed my name on not just one, but two women's breasts at their request.

Some people just want a picture with me (the fools!) without touching, and it's fine and good fun as well.

But mostly, it's harm-over-shoulder and metal-hand. No biggy.
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Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

Postby Trophy » Fri Nov 08, 2013 3:53 am  •  [Post 20730]

Dick Strawkins wrote:My interpretation of what SHE is doing in both of those pictures is that she is posing for a photograph.
If you look at her eyes it appears that she is looking towards something in particular on both occasions (everyone in the first picture is obviously doing the same thing - posing for a photo.)
In the second picture she has the same look on her face, as if someone she is looking towards is about to take her picture.
That would explain why she might be standing next to the famous guy and also why he might have his arm around her (lots of people want to get their photo taken with famous people - or with people in cool costumes.)
I think that is the simplest explanation, and without the accusations flying around I think that is what most neutral people would conclude from the photos.
I think it is fair to say we don't have the full story. Something else happened that is not shown here, but we do at least have some background provided to the event.


We need a forensic investigator :lol:. Here's another point: the guy to the far right in the first picture seems to holding a doll or something but in the second picture he is holding a bottle. So it seems considerable time has passed between them. BTW, where did you find these pictures? I did a little bit of searching but couldn't come up with much.
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Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

Postby Suet Cardigan » Fri Nov 08, 2013 3:54 am  •  [Post 20731]

Dick Strawkins wrote:The real problem with that Dragoncon event is that we didn't have someone like Rebecca Watson there, providing the kind of high minded and classy example for which she is deservedly famous.



She also autographed this guy's ass:

3228610662_16fb81f086.jpg


Just be thankful it wasn't Steffanny Zvan's ass.
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Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

Postby German LurkBoatsman » Fri Nov 08, 2013 3:58 am  •  [Post 20732]

Sulaco wrote:The DoE (I think) also conducted a test to see if a reactor cooling tower could survive the impact of a plane. So they rammed and old F4 into one. Great footage, the plane basically disintegrated on impact. I think I watched this on Nova on PBS years ago and the test was done in the 70's.


I seriously doubt that.

First off, I like to joke that if terrorists crash a plane into a nuclear power plant they would surely go for the cooling tower. a) it's the biggest target, b) many people seem to confuse the cooling tower with the power plant, c) the effect of doing that is basically zilch or nada. Sure, the plant would auto-shutdown and cooling would be somewhat compromised, but that's basically it as long as everybody at the site knows their shit.

I'm not aware of any experiment with F4s on real cooling towers. There were tests with ramming them into massive concrete walls and observing the damage/calculating the impact force. Here's an example:



The parts that produce the apparent 'pulverization' effect is mainly the fuselage. The main impact on the other hand is shelled out by the engine. At airplane speed that's a dense block of heavy metal that can go thru a lot of stuff including concrete walls. It would almost for sure go through the walls of a cooling tower because they aren't that thick as they don't have to be.

The main thing is if the reactor building would withstand an impact. If not, you'd have a release of some radioactivity really fast and, depending on the amount and type of secondary damages, maybe a catastrophic release of fission materials.

Now, the reactor buildings do have thick concrete walls but if they can withstand the damage done by a plane crash is really in doubt. Most commercial reactors today would probably withstand an F4 but not necessarily an A380. American authorities tend to be optimistic what their reactors can withstand, German authorities seem to be more pessimistic.

As for the 1970s and 9/11 style attacks, German reactors were tested then if the could withstand kamikaze like attacks from F4, but no one seems to have thought about captured commercial planes.
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Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

Postby HoneyWagon » Fri Nov 08, 2013 3:59 am  •  [Post 20733]

I just saw this tweet.
https://twitter.com/SecularWoman/status/398471307076980736


Image


Are they saying "female bodied people" because they think some people will be offended if it said "women"?
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Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

Postby Phil_Giordana_FCD » Fri Nov 08, 2013 4:19 am  •  [Post 20734]

Fucking PC is what it is.
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Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

Postby Badger3k » Fri Nov 08, 2013 4:20 am  •  [Post 20735]

Suet Cardigan wrote:
Dick Strawkins wrote:The real problem with that Dragoncon event is that we didn't have someone like Rebecca Watson there, providing the kind of high minded and classy example for which she is deservedly famous.



She also autographed this guy's ass:

3228610662_16fb81f086.jpg


Just be thankful it wasn't Steffanny Zvan's ass.


Which one is Rebecca? :whistle:
PZ Myers definition of irony - 8 October 2013 at 9:15 am (UTC -5) "You don’t get to simultaneously adopt a snide, superior tone AND claim that you’re a martyr"
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