Fuck off, Jamie!

[Brive1987]

Oops. That was from here. This is clearly bullshit and the police policy needs to change.

https://www.news.com.au/finance/busines ... 5a2719f2c1

[Kirbmarc]

Even if I accepted your claim based on passing stats (which I don’t) the clear mismatch between relative built-in capacity (aka latent sophistication) would make Europe in 1818 far less structurally “dysfunctional and backwards” than the organic social reserves of, oh say, Eritrea today.

Then there’s the whole Newtonian physics and invention of the electric light thing. Those occurred earlier than your arbitrary “couple of centuries” and so maybe don’t count as indicative. Naturally many sensible people bemoan the introduction of the wheel into Australia in 1788 as a rude pre-empting of native industry - which had marched towards this goal for more than 40,000 years and was on the cusp of a eureka moment.

The point isn't that Africa or the Middle East were about to start the Enlightenment on their own, but that that it took time in the "west" for both social improvements and Enlightenment values to spread.

The Third World of today have been exposed to social improvements and Enlightenment values much later, so it's natural they still lag behind, especially in countries which haven't been self-governing and have been subjected to colonial domination and race-based policies of social stratification until recent times: decolonization started between seventy and sixty years ago, and didn't end until the 1980s, apartheid ended in the 1990s. It's absurd to think that these societies should build up in sixty years what it took Europe two hundred years to develop. Never mind the fact that Europe didn't have to struggle to free itself from foreign domination.

In the Middle East plenty of larval/elite projects of modernization were started in the 1950s/1960s, and the reactionary/ultra-conservative movements spearheaded by Saudi Arabia&co on the Sunni side and Iran on the Shia side are a large part of the reasons why today the Middle East is so fucked up. Both the US and the USSR suppressed democratic efforts and installed puppet regimes in the area. The US also directly supported the ultra-conservative Sunnis against the USSR.

Europe also experienced anti-Enlightenment reactions, often led by autocratic, reactionary regimes like Russia. After the congress of Vienna Russia often provided soldiers to help other powers to quash insurrections, like in Austria-Hungary in 1848.

Incidentally this is what Dugin refers to when he talks about a "unified Eurasia" based on a mystical religious-cultural union. He's basically the Russian version of a Salafi imam. This is why it's so mind-boggling to me that you consider him a valid source of political insight.

Fascism in general is highly reactionary, and often it has ties to religious authorities, like in Italy under Mussolini, Spain under Franco, Chile under Pinochet. It's not too much of a stretch to compare the current Salafi "muslim revival" to clerical fascism.

China and Japan had a lesser gap to overcome. Japan largely integrated science and some Enlightenment principles on its own, and went on to industrialize and modernize itself and Korea. China had been an empire which was actually more advanced than Europe before the 1500s.

Societies don't advanced magically on their own through the spark of some isolated geniuses. Europe didn't get to the Scientific Revolution and later the Enlightenment on its own. It got there by building on previous knowledge and innovations, some of which came from India through the Arab world (Indian numerals) and some of which was created in the Arab world (algorithms, algebra, double-entry bookkeeping). Europe added a lot of innovation of its own, but it was a CUMULATIVE and slow effort.

The Arab world built that knowledge from previous Greek and Roman knowledge, adding innovation of its own. The point of this is that progress happens thanks to accumulation of previous knowledge and innovation. Europe was far from being culturally isolated: exchanges of ideas and knowledge across the Mediterranean sea and beyond were quite common even before the Age of Explorations. Australia had been virtually isolated from any form of meaningful contact with other civilizations for thousands of years.

Two hundred years ago Europe and its offshoots were FAR less socially advanced than they are today. There was a widespread yearning among the educated elites for social improvements, and gradually, slowly, painfully, fighting against traditions and reactionary ideas at every step of the way, the "west" managed to improve itself immensely.

Today many among the educated elites in Africa and the Middle East yearn for social improvements, too, and are fighting against reactionary ideas and tinpot dictators. However it's the reactionaries and the authoritarians which have the upper hand. Just look at what happened after the Arab Spring: the democratic/modernizers were crushed more or less everywhere except in Tunisia and instead you got authoritarian religious reactionaries (heavily funded and supported by the reactionary oil-rich theocracies), just like in 1815 absolute monarchies and reactionary religious and traditional movements largely did away with democratic movements, at least for a while.

However the yearning for modern, Enlightenment values isn't over. The Arabic version of The God Delusion is an underground best seller, even if it's officially prohibited in many muslim countries. In Iran young people are getting more and more tired with religious backwardness every day. Morocco and Tunisia are gradually and slowly modernizing. Even Saudi Arabia has to at least PRETEND of moving forward, even though it's actually not (just like some European kings pretended to adopt some liberal ideas after the 1848 rebellions, even though by and large they actually didn't).

In Africa too there's progress in certain countries: Bostwana is a growing economic and budding liberal democracy, for example.

If the "western" progressives had kept their wits to them they'd support the progressive, innovative, modernizing forces in the "muslim world" and in Africa. Instead they're complete idiots who have drunk the identitarian anti-White/anti-Western kool-aid and support the authoritarian, reactionary theocratic forces because they're "more authentic" and to "fight racism". Morocco and Tunisia have more or less banned niqabs and burkas with widespread social support and nobody in the left has noticed, but when France or Switzerland do it the SocJus whines that it's "Islamophobia". :bjarte:

The fetish of the Regressive Left for the veil, or for defending islam as "feminist" or "the religion of peace" is incredibly stupid, and that's one of the reasons why people are abandoning the left.

On the other hand people are flocking to some identitarian right-wing ideas. That's also a danger. We have to teach and show real progressive values to the muslim world, support the progressive forces within in, if we want the Middle East to improve and "muslim communities" in the west to develop. The SocJus/Regressive Leftists have forced the left to abandon this role, but the answer on the right is not to promote progress, but instead to embrace anti-Enlightenment, reactionary, identitarian ideas. This helps no one and makes social conflicts only worse.

[Brive1987]

“Phil is a fucker”

[Kirbmarc]

“Phil is a fucker”

This is what you get when corporations aren't kept in check. This isn't a left wing or right wing issue, it's a corporate program being faithfully obeyed by politicians "influenced" by important lobbies.

[Brive1987]

Kirb, you are off on a rant again. No one is saying that the West didn’t interact with other cultures. Or that European tradition sprang fully formed. Or that third world shit holes aren’t playing catch up with multiple impediments. Or that the enlightenment didn’t take time to resonate. Or .....

The original point was that unique national/cultural identities can exist having formed out of a commonly owned Western tradition. A tradition which itself evolved over an extended period. That tradition involves common interconnected history, connected languages, related origin stories, Roman and Greek institutional vestiges and values derived from shared religious, intellectual and philosophical discourse.

You took this reasonable proposition and raped it over a table. You should be ashamed.

[Keating]

Shorter Kirb: foreign aid is important, and should be used to help the most “West” like (not necessarily West friendly) elements in developing countries.

I’d add not least because it is far cheaper to help someone in a third world country than to bring them to the West and help them here.

[Kirbmarc]

Kirb, you are off on a rant again. No one is saying that the West didn’t interact with other cultures. Or that European tradition sprang fully formed. Or that third world shit holes aren’t playing catch up with multiple impediments. Or that the enlightenment didn’t take time to resonate. Or .....

The original point was that unique national/cultural identities can exist having formed out of a commonly owned Western tradition. A tradition which itself evolved over an extended period. That tradition involves common interconnected history, connected languages, related origin stories, Roman and Greek institutional vestiges and values derived from shared religious, intellectual and philosophical discourse.

You took this reasonable proposition and raped it over a table. You should be ashamed.

Motte and bailey again.

The problem isn't that there is a tradition of language, literature, folklore, discourse which is shared (to different degrees) by several European nations and beyond. Actually some PARTS of that shared traditions extend beyond Europe. Greek philosophy influenced the "muslim world" (Plato was even considered a prophetic figure in Shia islam) along with Roman culture, through the Byzantine empire, in Muslim Spain, Muslim Sicily, muslim North Africa. If anything China is father removed from "the west" than the Arabic/muslim world, because Chinese philosophy/tradition evolved with less contact with the Romans and the Greeks.

The problem is assuming that liberal democratic/Enlightenment values are a cultural-specific product that cannot be applied to "non-western" cultures. The big point of contention is whether "non-western" people can integrate into a liberal democratic culture, and what it takes to make this happen. My position is that a retreat into the policies of Generation Identitaire/the "celebration of western identity" is actually DETRIMENTAL to any sort of integration, and that the identitarian right is a reactionary, anti-Enlightenment movement which is as much how a threat to liberal democracy as reactionary islam or the postmodern, anti-Enlightenment SocJus.

The point of my posts on rising standards and cultural resistance to Enlightenment ideas is that assumption that liberal democratic/Enlightenment values are traditional western values is unwarranted. If anything they're anti-traditional. Enlightenment thinkers had to fight traditional powers like the churches and the aristocracy. The world we enjoy today wasn't an organic, peaceful development of "the west". It was the result of a long Cultural War that eventually was won by the Enlightenment/liberal democrats. Sometimes it wasn't just a cultural war, either.

The Enlightenment thinkers were the "libtards" of their age, and they had their own "SJW" excesses, too (the Cult of Reason and the Reign of Terror during the French revolution, for example). They were not Trad-Lifers, or identitarians. They were against the worship of the past and of traditions. They were closer to my positions than to yours.

The victory of the Enlightenment side was far from certain. In some areas of Europe, like in Eastern Europe, Enlightenment values are still resisted by tradition. The Orthodox church is still very conservative, very powerful, and in Russia it's one of big players in the political field. This is one of the reasons why Russian traditionalist thinkers like Dugin are anti-Enlightenment and instead support reactionary ideologues like Evola or Maurras.

And indeed even in Western Europe liberal democratic ideals weren't always the preferred standard, even in recent times. Italian Fascism and German Nazism were highly anti-Enlightenment, authoritarian, reactionary, and tied to the veneration of the past, of "tradition" (mostly a mythological tradition in the case of the Nazis, but still), of "identity".

Fascism thought-leaders heavily emphasized the connection to "European identity", sometimes even with "Christian identity", and decried the Enlightenment values as "degeneration". The victory of the liberal democratic side in World War Two was far from certain, and remnants of clerico-fascism remained in Spain and Portugal until the 70s.

The alt-right/"alt-lite"/identitarian right is clearly flirting with neo-fascism/neo-nazism. Lauren Southern nodded along with Dugin, a fan of "fascist fascism". The "human biodiversity" movement includes some genuine white nationalists. Sargon supported Marine LePen, who is the head of a party which was founded with clear neo-fascist principles. Alternative fur Deutschland is full of neo-fascist and even neo-nazi ideas. In Italy the current prime minister, himself pretty far on the right, has adopted the slogans of a neo-fascist movement. In the US the "Unite the Right" rally has featured genuine neo-nazis, and people like Richard Spencer are clamoring for "a white ethno-state".

The threat of the neo-fascist far right is genuine. The continuum of ideas between the neo-fascists and the "identitarian" is also true, and it's hard to draw a clear line between neo-fascism and the "western identity"/TradLife fans. And the presence of those people makes it HARDER to support Enlightenment/liberal democratic principles and to integrate immigrants into a liberal democratic project.

The identitarian right is not interested in liberal democracy or Enlightenment principles, or even in "cultural integration", only in getting the "non-western" people out of the way. If the discourse is dominated by them immigrants have little choice to meaningfully integrate. We've seen people in the "identitarian right" questioning the idea of black woman playing Jean D'Arc. That's undermining a genuine effort at integration into not just liberal democracy, but even French tradition! Again, there's no clear repudiation of these ideas among the "western identity" fans.

Meaningful criticism of islam is made HARDER by the actions of the identitarian right. Genuine progressive, Enlightenment-based arguments about how we need to reduce the influence of reactionary and conservative islam are associated with the identitarian ideas about how muslims are to be expelled or not let in because they're a collective threat to "European identity".

The more the right veers into identity politics, the more the moderate left and even parts of the moderate center-right dismiss criticism of islam as racism and xenophobia. The more people like Tommy Robinson act like entitled vigilantes, the EASIER it is for the left to think that a focus on the rape culture of islam is only hatred for non-white people. The more authoritarian, reactionary thinkers like Dugin are given space and a voice, the HARDER it becomes to coherently defend Enlightenment/liberal democratic principles.

The SocJus contributed to the rise of the alt-right, but now the alt-right is feeding the SocJus. With identity politics we're all losing.

[Kirbmarc]

Shorter Kirb: foreign aid is important, and should be used to help the most “West” like (not necessarily West friendly) elements in developing countries.

I’d add not least because it is far cheaper to help someone in a third world country than to bring them to the West and help them here.

This is not a bad take, actually. Promoting modernization in the third world would also reduce the need for people to leave their countries. People don't leave Bostwana as much as they leave the Democratic Republic of the Congo. Indeed people immigrate to Bostwana from Zimbabwe (and who can blame them?)

But it's not enough. There are already people of non-European origin living and having children born in Europe. You need to find a meaningful path to integration for them, one that cannot be based on "you have to leave ALL of your culture behind" because that's not just illiberal, but unlikely to succeed even if it were forced upon people. If anything it's more likely that if you FORCE people to culturally assimilate (not just to respect laws and principles) they just isolate into their ghettos.

This is why I argued for principle-based civic nationalism which is not about "identity", but about a role in a liberal democratic society. Give people shared, common, fair rules with no loopholes or exemptions. Show them a path to succeed socially in a liberal democracy without isolating in an ethnic ghetto. Give them a meaningful standing within a society with common laws and moral principles, even if they have their own cuisine or folklore.

And encourage cultural integration as well, without forcing it though. A black woman who wants to play Jean D'Arc is a POSITIVE effect of integration. She wants so much to be French, she wants to be a FRENCH ICON. That's something to celebrate, not to denigrate.

Also immigration isn't going to just magically stop. Improving conditions in the Third World will take time, and meanwhile lots of people in shithole countries will want to get to Europe or the US or, yes, even Australia. Reasonable vetting is definitely warranted, but you can't just shut the gate and leave everyone out.

When a boatload of people arrives in your port you can't simply play out some media stunt about not letting them in while they get ill, as it is happening in Italy. A shared European response to immigration is warranted and can't be "open doors", but it also can't be about identity politics.

In the long run Western investments in securing a better future for the third world should sensibly reduce immigration, but in the short run you have to also deal with emergencies and with "non-western" people who are already here.

[shoutinghorse]

Oh fuck, the great walls of text are back. :o

[shoutinghorse]

Not according to the replies.

[Brive1987]

Kirb, you are off on a rant again. No one is saying that the West didn’t interact with other cultures. Or that European tradition sprang fully formed. Or that third world shit holes aren’t playing catch up with multiple impediments. Or that the enlightenment didn’t take time to resonate. Or .....

The original point was that unique national/cultural identities can exist having formed out of a commonly owned Western tradition. A tradition which itself evolved over an extended period. That tradition involves common interconnected history, connected languages, related origin stories, Roman and Greek institutional vestiges and values derived from shared religious, intellectual and philosophical discourse.

You took this reasonable proposition and raped it over a table. You should be ashamed.

Motte and bailey again.

Snip...

Pile of shit. Again.

There was no change of argument from me. The original point was made. You spun your BS. And the original point was remade.

And ignored.

Pretty much SOP.

Did you throw up a little as you created your equivalence between Lauren Southern / dear sweet Brittany and the Islamic ideology which has already butchered children, families and the professional authors of your enlightened free speech?

Your culture wars narrative is every bit as wild eyed as that of your most rabid opponent. That should give you pause for thought.

[JayTeeAitch]

I'll try and get the pit back on track here:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... jailed-for
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... asies.html

The father of Amee Challenor (stunning, brave, rising member of the green party) has just been jailed for the torture and rape of a 10 year old girl.

• Amee employed his dad as an election agent whilst he was on bail for the last 2 or 3 years
  The address where it happened is the family home and also the registered green party HQ
  His dad sometimes dressed up in a little girls outfit whilst doing his shit
  He may have had influence on policy regarding self id, access to women spaces etc
  I think Ophies frigging herself silly over this one

(that's supposed to be a list above - fuck knows how you're supposed to do it properly)

Nice!

[Brive1987]

[Matt Cavanaugh]

The father of Amee Challenor (stunning, brave, rising member of the green party) has just been jailed for the torture and rape of a 10 year old girl.

Aimee Challenor is trans, and xir dad is a sadistic perverted Stephanknee. So there must be a gene for completely fucked-up twisted sexual deviance that runs in the family. Cuz you're born trans. Cuz it's heresy to suggest that trans ID might have an environmental etiology. Cuz everything is socially constructed, except when it isn't.

[SM1957]

I hope Titania never becomes pregnant because then her flow of poetry will quite literally dry up.

[Matt Cavanaugh]

That’s exactly why we should be terrified. China is prepared to erase history it doesn’t like, and is perfectly happy implementing top down social currency that unpersons you if you engage in wrongthink. Islam is even worse. That’s why the collapse of the West is a humanitarian catastrophe. It isn’t that the United States is perfect as the world superpower, but rather that China in that position is inherently worse for humanity. And it is precisely for cultural reasons.

One of the oikophobic, SJW dumbfucks at WEIT wished couple of days ago (paraphrase) 'I can't wait for China -- an efficient authoritarian state -- to be running the world'.

You have to wonder if the literal cuckholdery of polyfuckery and this cultural cuckholdery are not somehow interrelated phenomena.

[Tigzy]

I dunno, 'ragewanking hobgoblin' seems very Parseholeish to me.

[Matt Cavanaugh]

FT wrote: I think the argument is not that 2 hundred years ago eastern cultures were as good as western culture, but that present day eastern cultures are as good as western cultures were 200 years ago. Is there a misunderstanding here?

No, you're correct - there is no misunderstanding. But I still dispute that 200 years ago Western cultures were not better than ME and African today. And in those 200 years, the West has improved immeasurably, largely due to Enlightenment values that lead to scientific as well as cultural improvements. In the meantime, the ME and African countries are still shitholes, by and large, and where western tech has been imported, are actually much worse since the reach of the Big Man has grown commensurately, and as well as raw numbers, this means that other cultures/tribes etc. are devastated. See central African states ad nauseam.

I would take living in any European country in 1818 over any of those shitholes today. At the very least, my fellow citizens wouldn't be out to kill my black dog cuz she ruins the mojo of their prayers. Not killing albinos for witchcraft, or slicing up girls' genitalia to prevent them from becoming succubi, would be bonuses.

In many ways, those shithole societies aren't just 200 years behind, they are a millennium or more. The enlightenment did happen in Europe, and it didn't happen in Europe by chance. Whether one credits Christianity like JBP, or the Greeks like me, the Western emphasis on the individual, and on curiosity about the world, was critical.

It's a bullshit just-so story that, had Europe not colonized Africa & Asia, those cultures would've eventually blossomed, too. FFS, in India they still ritually purify themselves in the same 'Holy' river they dump their corpses. In China, they still think eating seahorses or rhino horn will help with their little limp dicks.

And I'm sorry, but 60 years should have been long enough for sub-saharan ex colonies to get their shit together, especially with all the foreign aid and NGO help they've had. There are surely lots of factors for that (not the least, that a sudden political vacuum is almost always filled by corruption), but what cannot be waved away is the fact that the average IQ in sub-saharan Africa is a whopping 70.

[Matt Cavanaugh]

I’d add not least because it is far cheaper to help someone in a third world country than to bring them to the West and help them here.

The same surfeit of luxury and comfort that's led to existential ennui in the West, also drives a heavy guilt which spurs an emotional impulse to share with the deprived of other nations (by letting them come here to partake in the bounty). But it's irrational and impossible to fulfill. As Douglas Murray succinctly posed the question: okay, let's say Europe has a moral obligation to admit - if not economic migrants -- at least every political asylum seeker. How many billions of people live in totalitarian, authoritarian, or war-torn countries? Billions. Is Europe to let in them all? If not, then what is a feasible number?

There is, of course, no rational answer. The biggest policy decisions of the West with the most far-reaching consequences are being made based on primitive emotional impulses.

[CommanderTuvok]

I'll try and get the pit back on track here:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... jailed-for
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... asies.html

The father of Amee Challenor (stunning, brave, rising member of the green party) has just been jailed for the torture and rape of a 10 year old girl.

• Amee employed his dad as an election agent whilst he was on bail for the last 2 or 3 years
  The address where it happened is the family home and also the registered green party HQ
  His dad sometimes dressed up in a little girls outfit whilst doing his shit
  He may have had influence on policy regarding self id, access to women spaces etc
  I think Ophies frigging herself silly over this one

(that's supposed to be a list above - fuck knows how you're supposed to do it properly)

Nice!

Don't think Cobweb Cunt has picked up on this one, yet. She must have seen it tho, because her mate Sarah Ditum is getting her two-pennies in about it.

[CommanderTuvok]

Oh, and the UK Green Party are rightfully getting it in the front hole over this Chanellor scandal.

They suspended/expelled a woman from the party after she was accused of shouting "penis" during a contentious Channel 4 show on trans issues.

:popcorn:

[screwtape]

The Peterson/Harris debates are out now, but the official version is behind a Patreon paywall. Unofficial mirrors on YT keep being deleted very quickly, like the one John posted here a few days ago. So as a service to the Pit, here are links to the hidden versions on YT that are given to Patreons:

Part 1
Part 2

[Kirbmarc]

I would take living in any European country in 1818 over any of those shitholes today. At the very least, my fellow citizens wouldn't be out to kill my black dog cuz she ruins the mojo of their prayers.

Roasting cats alive had gotten out of fashion in France only 20-25 years before, though. Badger baiting was still legal in the UK, and would have become illegal only in 1835. Dog fighting was starting to become a big hit in the US:

In 1817, the Staffordshire Bull Terrier was brought to America and dog fighting became part of American culture.[1] Yet, though historical accounts of dog fighting in America can be dated back to the 1750s, it was not until the end of the Civil War (1861–1865) that widespread interest and participation in the blood sport began in the United States.[3] For instance, in 1881, the Mississippi and Ohio railroads advertised special fares to a dog fight in Louisville; public forums such as Kit Burns' Tavern, "The Sportman's Hall," in Manhattan regularly hosted matches.[1] Many of these dogs thrown into the "professional pits" that flourished during the 1860s came from England and Ireland—where citizens had turned to dogs when bear-baiting and bull-baiting became illegal in their countries.[3]

Not killing albinos for witchcraft,

In the early 1800s the belief in the powerd of witches was no longer widespread among the educated elites (thanks to the Enlightenment), but lower class people still believed in witches and occasionally formed lynch mobs:

While the educated elites had largely abandoned their belief in the reality of witchcraft, this belief remained widespread in popular culture.[68] From this point on, it was very rare for an accused witch to undergo a judicial process and be threatened with execution, but there was still a danger from popular justice and lynch mobs.[68] The death of Ruth Osborne is an example of one such case that occurred in 1751. The last person in Germany to be executed for witchcraft was fifteen-year-old Veronika Zeritschin, who was beheaded and then burned on April 2, 1756 in Landshut.

In the later 18th century, witchcraft had ceased to be considered a criminal offense throughout Europe, but there are a number of cases which were not technically witch trials but are suspected to have involved belief in witches at least behind the scenes. Thus, in 1782, Anna Göldi was executed in Glarus, Switzerland, officially for the killing of her infant - a ruling at the time widely denounced throughout Switzerland and Germany as judicial murder. Like Anna Göldi, Barbara Zdunk was executed in 1811 in Prussia not technically for witchcraft but for arson.[citation needed] In Poland, the Doruchów witch trial occurred in 1783 and the execution of two additional women for sorcery in 1793, tried by a legal court but with dubious legitimacy.[citation needed]

Despite the official ending of the trials for Satanic witchcraft, there would still be occasional unofficial killings of those accused in parts of Europe, such as was seen in the cases of Anna Klemens in Denmark (1800), Krystyna Ceynowa in Poland (1836), and Dummy, the Witch of Sible Hedingham in England (1863). In France, there was sporadic violence and even murder in the 1830s, with one woman reportedly burnt in a village square in Nord.[69]

Things were getting better by the 1800s, but Europe and the US had a long history of beliefs in witches and of violent/legalized persecution of people accused of being witches. We can all thank the effects of public education for finally stamping those beliefs out, except among internet kooks.

slicing up girls' genitalia to prevent them from becoming succubi

Female genital mutilation was used as part of medical practice to "cure" female masturbation in the US until the late 1800s. Granted, it wasn't as widespread as FGM in Africa or the Middle East, and it was definitely done in much more hygienic conditions but it was equally as irrational.

During the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, there was one kind of female orgasm and it was clitoral; there was also only one kind of healthy sexual instinct for a woman and it was for penetrative sex with her husband. When a woman behaved outside of this normality—by masturbating or by not responding to her husband's affections—her sexual instinct was seen as disordered. If healthy women, then, were believed only to be sexual within the marital embrace, what better way to explain these errant behaviors than by blaming the clitoris, an organ seen as key to female sexual instinct? Doctors corrected a clitoris in an unhealthy state using one of four surgeries—removing smegma or adhesions between the clitoris and its hood, removing the hood (circumcision), or removing the clitoris (clitoridectomy)—in order to correct a woman's sexual instinct in an unhealthy state. Their approach to clitoral surgery, at least as revealed in published medical works, was a cautious one that respected the importance of clitoral stimulation for healthy sexuality while simultaneously recognizing its role as cause and symptom in cases of insanity that were tied to masturbation.

In many ways, those shithole societies aren't just 200 years behind, they are a millennium or more. The enlightenment did happen in Europe, and it didn't happen in Europe by chance. Whether one credits Christianity like JBP, or the Greeks like me, the Western emphasis on the individual, and on curiosity about the world, was critical.

I agree that the Enlightenment didn't happen in Europe by chance. The combination of the rediscovery of Greek and Roman knowledge during Humanism, the economic development of Europe thanks to the early colonization of America, the invention of the printing press respectively ignited intellectual debate, gave room for the kind of not directly rewarding pursuit of knowledge that well-off people could afford, and allowed people to circulate ideas to a larger audience by making books affordable. This created the conditions for philosophical debates, for the Scientific Revolution, and later for the Enlightenment.

Slowly but steadily European societies improved fighting AGAINST the traditions of witch trials, of cat-burning, of aristocratic power, of the divine rights of kings, etc. It was a cultural war that was fought by the intellectual elites before it became a source of widespread social changes. Backwardness, superstition, authoritarian ideas, bigotry took time to be made marginal. Some backwardness went on only rather recently.

It's a bullshit just-so story that, had Europe not colonized Africa & Asia, those cultures would've eventually blossomed, too. FFS, in India they still ritually purify themselves in the same 'Holy' river they dump their corpses. In China, they still think eating seahorses or rhino horn will help with their little limp dicks.

I don't think we can know for sure whether colonization kept some countries culturally backwards, although a case can be made that it kept them e made ethnic tensions worse, especially by drawing arbitrary borders that united rival tribes under the same nation.

However it was cultural isolation that was the biggest factor for the delay in the spread of Enlightenment ideas from Europe to non-European countries. It still is a big factor today. China is an authoritarian police state that censors large parts of the Internet.

A large chunk of the Muslim world is illiterate, and education is the hands of religious leaders, most of which are conservative at best, reactionary at worst. Women still struggle to receive any sort of education in many muslim-majority states.

Of course the "muslim renaissance" of the Salafi, who are BY FAR the richest and most powerful cultural force in islam today thanks to Saudi Arabia and other GCC countries, doesn't help. Things are backsliding, even in more secular countries like Turkey. In the US the secular forces have managed to defeat creationism, in Turkey the islamo-fascists run the country today.

And I'm sorry, but 60 years should have been long enough for sub-saharan ex colonies to get their shit together, especially with all the foreign aid and NGO help they've had. There are surely lots of factors for that (not the least, that a sudden political vacuum is almost always filled by corruption), but what cannot be waved away is the fact that the average IQ in sub-saharan Africa is a whopping 70.

One of the problems is that both the "west" AND the communist countries supported puppet regimes and various dictators in Africa to have easy access to important resources, and to annoy the other side. In Congo Mobutu was heavily supported by France and the US, even though he was a moronic leader who heavily supported ethnic violence. Kabila was instead trained by commies, and after him his son has become his successor, in perfect neo-Marxist dictatorship style, just like in North Korea.

It's not surprising, though, that the areas of Africa which are richer in precious materials are also shitholes. Countries that base their wealth on what's dug from the ground, rather than on having educated and productive citizens, are almost always dictatorships:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs

[Kirbmarc]

That’s exactly why we should be terrified. China is prepared to erase history it doesn’t like, and is perfectly happy implementing top down social currency that unpersons you if you engage in wrongthink. Islam is even worse. That’s why the collapse of the West is a humanitarian catastrophe. It isn’t that the United States is perfect as the world superpower, but rather that China in that position is inherently worse for humanity. And it is precisely for cultural reasons.

One of the oikophobic, SJW dumbfucks at WEIT wished couple of days ago (paraphrase) 'I can't wait for China -- an efficient authoritarian state -- to be running the world'.

You have to wonder if the literal cuckholdery of polyfuckery and this cultural cuckholdery are not somehow interrelated phenomena.

Wishing for China to run the world is absurd for someone who values Enlightenment values/liberal democracy, I agree. The US or the EU are MUCH better as superpowers, with all their flaws. However being a super-power means taking risks AND learning from previous mistakes. We know that the strategy of bombs and invasions not only doesn't work, but creates MORE problems.

The recent migration crisis was a consequence, among other factors, of the "western" intervention in Libya, which has turned it from an authoritarian but stable shithole into a complete mess where warlords, terrorism and slavery are incredibly common and where the "government" (or better yet the local warlords) are involved in human trafficking of sub-Saharan Africans who wish to move to Europe.

We also know that giving in to pressures from lobbies is also a bad idea (see the Iraq War, or the support for Saudi Arabia). Europe and the US need a common foreign policy based on improving things in developing countries to reduce immigration pressures, not only appeasing corporate or lobbying interests. Good luck of this happening under the Orange Cunt.

[John D]

So... it is official... NPR (National Peoples Radio) has a selection of wine labled with their most polular shows. Please let me know if you think this is as funny as I do... and... I am laughing my ass off right now.

8-27-2018 1-19-20 PM.jpg

(84.52 KiB) Downloaded 301 times

[Suet Cardigan]

Oh, and the UK Green Party are rightfully getting it in the front hole over this Chanellor scandal.

They suspended/expelled a woman from the party after she was accused of shouting "penis" during a contentious Channel 4 show on trans issues.

:popcorn:

Speaking of the Green Party:

[Ape+lust]

Not even Parsehole could come up with this spectacle of self-abasing neediness.

I am woke, hear me mewl.

https://imgur.com/W4VQU6Z.png

It gets worse, much worse.

https://medium.com/@katstory/white-peop ... 0fe873e5d3

[Ape+lust]

Even for justice warriors, these guys are utterly useless.

https://imgur.com/TJTjYA4.jpg

[InfraRedBucket]

Oh, and the UK Green Party are rightfully getting it in the front hole over this Chanellor scandal.

They suspended/expelled a woman from the party after she was accused of shouting "penis" during a contentious Channel 4 show on trans issues.

:popcorn:

Speaking of the Green Party:

:lol:

[MarcusAu]

Sounds like these people are negotiating their place in the structure (or hierarchy) of their tribe.

Seems a bit silly to me looking from the outside - but not exactly unexpected when looking at how human societies work.

[free thoughtpolice]

So... it is official... NPR (National Peoples Radio) has a selection of wine labled with their most polular shows. Please let me know if you think this is as funny as I do... and... I am laughing my ass off right now.8-27-2018 1-19-20 PM.jpg

No that's not funny. The Bill Maher thing I posted on the Trump Dump was funny. You just have a fucked up sense of humor.

[free thoughtpolice]

THIS is funny:

[John D]

So... it is official... NPR (National Peoples Radio) has a selection of wine labled with their most polular shows. Please let me know if you think this is as funny as I do... and... I am laughing my ass off right now.8-27-2018 1-19-20 PM.jpg

No that's not funny. The Bill Maher thing I posted on the Trump Dump was funny. You just have a fucked up sense of humor.

Haha.... yeah... sometimes I find strange things funny. It's a good thing all my friends and I laugh at the same thing, or I would feel like I had some kind of brain disease.

For example, I laughed my ass off at the article Ape-lust just posted... Seriously, I think that writer is so strange and disturbed and pathetic that it is funny.

I tell my friends that it is a good thing I am not a king or an emperor or something... cause it would be really bad. Haha... Pol Pot look out. At least I know this about myself. Some of my friends and I were discussing the study that suggested many soldiers never even fire their weapon in a firefight. My most liberal and sensitive friend admitted that she could not shoot someone, even in self defense. I am like "Wow... I would love to have permission to shoot someone." I don't think I am all that different than a lot of people. Most people just wouldn't admit they could be vile.

As it stands.... I am not a vengeful person at all. I let most shit roll off my back. Hell, I am not even all that mad at my piece of shit son-in-law. But, I can free myself from anger and still deny him a glass of water in the dessert... if you know what I mean. I will not actively seek revenge, but a can be absolutely apathetic to people in some cases. (John McCain. yep. He died. Whatever. I don't think he helped America one bit, and I am not impressed by his sense of "honor", however he defined it. All the news shows could do last week was fall over themselves doing McCain tributes. Sheesh... stop wasting my time.)

Bill Maher is just stupid... not even clever... but the idea of a bunch of commies sitting down to a bottle of "NPR" wine is funny as fuck. What can I say. To each his own I guess.

[MarcusAu]

I guess American's wine buying habits is a bit of a sore point.

They managed to break the economy of a small country when they stopped buying Pinot Grand Fenwick.

[Really?]

I'll try and get the pit back on track here:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... jailed-for
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... asies.html

The father of Amee Challenor (stunning, brave, rising member of the green party) has just been jailed for the torture and rape of a 10 year old girl.

• Amee employed his dad as an election agent whilst he was on bail for the last 2 or 3 years
  The address where it happened is the family home and also the registered green party HQ
  His dad sometimes dressed up in a little girls outfit whilst doing his shit
  He may have had influence on policy regarding self id, access to women spaces etc
  I think Ophies frigging herself silly over this one

(that's supposed to be a list above - fuck knows how you're supposed to do it properly)

Nice!

Aimee is twenty fucking years old...

[shoutinghorse]

Looks like old kirby has acquired some new countrymen ;)

Every member of a 28-strong group of African musicians has disappeared during a trip to a Swiss folk festival.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... tival.html

[Lsuoma]

I dunno - it could be that the Provisional William Tell Society has them buried in shallow graves...

[MarcusAu]

Anyone else been watching Bobcat Goldthwait's new series 'Misfits and Monsters' ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFUCoxgIAXI

...on second thought's though that werewolf story may be a little too 'on the nose' politically for some...

[Brive1987]

It must seem easy to counter anything a liberal has to say for Brive...almost like a...

.://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXHKkMhuNKM

Indeed.

http://i.imgur.com/dzs1RSI.jpg

[John D]

The world is coming to an end.... ASMR?

[CaptainFluffyBunny]

The Peterson/Harris debates are out now, but the official version is behind a Patreon paywall. Unofficial mirrors on YT keep being deleted very quickly, like the one John posted here a few days ago. So as a service to the Pit, here are links to the hidden versions on YT that are given to Patreons:

Part 1
Part 2

Very thoughtful, thank you.

[CaptainFluffyBunny]

I'll try and get the pit back on track here:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... jailed-for
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... asies.html

The father of Amee Challenor (stunning, brave, rising member of the green party) has just been jailed for the torture and rape of a 10 year old girl.

• Amee employed his dad as an election agent whilst he was on bail for the last 2 or 3 years
  The address where it happened is the family home and also the registered green party HQ
  His dad sometimes dressed up in a little girls outfit whilst doing his shit
  He may have had influence on policy regarding self id, access to women spaces etc
  I think Ophies frigging herself silly over this one

(that's supposed to be a list above - fuck knows how you're supposed to do it properly)

Nice!

Thanks for that, although it is grim as hell.

Although they're both pretty batshit crazy, I have to have sympathy with the TERFs. Imagine their joy when dudes in dresses decide they're better, more special women.

[Really?]

I'll try and get the pit back on track here:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... jailed-for
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... asies.html

The father of Amee Challenor (stunning, brave, rising member of the green party) has just been jailed for the torture and rape of a 10 year old girl.

• Amee employed his dad as an election agent whilst he was on bail for the last 2 or 3 years
  The address where it happened is the family home and also the registered green party HQ
  His dad sometimes dressed up in a little girls outfit whilst doing his shit
  He may have had influence on policy regarding self id, access to women spaces etc
  I think Ophies frigging herself silly over this one

(that's supposed to be a list above - fuck knows how you're supposed to do it properly)

Nice!

Thanks for that, although it is grim as hell.

Although they're both pretty batshit crazy, I have to have sympathy with the TERFs. Imagine their joy when dudes in dresses decide they're better, more special women.

They spent thirty years pushing for NO MEN in their gyms and NO MEN in their athletic events...now trans women with no treatment are dominating high school events and the trans men are demanding access to their women-only gym spaces that are somehow not sexist.

[Old_ones]

The reason most people don't care about "tradition, posterity, nationhood, or faith" is because our cultures have organically moved away from those values over time.

Really, I should say "to the extent that people don't care", because I think saying that "most people don't care" is actually a huge overstatement. I think plenty of people are about "tradition, posterity, nationhood, or faith", but probably most of them don't want a fascist theocracy to tell them how to care about that stuff, or mete out harsh punishments if they don't measure up.

Well that’s a pearl of wisdom. Though again I’m guessing the devil is in you definition. Pre multiculti Australia connected with these themes without descending to your well poisoning hyperbole. This suggests other models exist.

That depends on what you mean by "other models". You have a habit of defining your "models" in opposition to "civic nationalism", so I feel a bit baited and switched if you are going to your modern representative republic as an example of "other models". You took issue with my use of Iran to argue against theocracy, but I don't want pre-enlightenment Europe back any more than I want Iran. I might concede that pre-enlightenment Europe produced brilliant culture, but it also had governments who burned people alive for supposedly using magical powers that don't actually exist. Beyond having a cruel and stupid judicial system, epidemics were frequent and deadly because no one was "[solving] humanity’s problems with 'science!'" (in the wise words of your article) class mobility was also low, and the average person was not literate.

I don't agree with Jordan Peterson on a lot, but when he talks about activists he often makes the point that if you are going to change society you'd better know what you are doing. He often uses communism to make this point. The rhetoric of communism sounded good to a lot of people - it promised a unified society, an end to hunger and a system of solidarity and cooperation. We all know what communism actually delivered. This point isn't limited to communism though, and it is part of the reason why I don't bother to engage with most of the links you post here. I refuse to evaluate a hypothetical alternative to a representative republic on the basis of its propaganda. If you have some example of an "other model" that actually worked and didn't degenerate into a despotic hellhole, then by all means share. In the mean time you'll never convince me that my country should discard it's current system of government so that it can become a test case for some theoretical system cooked up by a bunch of loopy twats on the internet. In fact I'm so invested in that not happening, that I would be willing to literally take up arms and fight to stop it in the (highly unlikely) event that it looked like it could happen.

Sing it, brother. And as I recall, we're both armed to the teeth. Our Constitution was designed to prevent such government interventions and despotism.

You betcha. I have a tomahawk, a longsword, an old bolt action .22lr, a Mossberg 500, an AR15 in 5.56 x 45mm NATO, a Savage 10 series (law enforcement) bolt action in .308 winchester with a 4x scope, an S&W 686+ .357 magnum revolver, and a 50 caliber percussion lock musket (just in case the redcoats ever come back, or the south decides to rise again). I also have a collection of fighting knives that range from small folding knives to a 14 in dirk (about 10 in all). This honestly might be a bit overkill, but I live in a crappy apartment really close to 8 mile, and I'll probably end up living south of it in the next few years, so it's nice to have options.

GOD BLESS 'MURICA!!

[Old_ones]

The reason most people don't care about "tradition, posterity, nationhood, or faith" is because our cultures have organically moved away from those values over time.

Really, I should say "to the extent that people don't care", because I think saying that "most people don't care" is actually a huge overstatement. I think plenty of people are about "tradition, posterity, nationhood, or faith", but probably most of them don't want a fascist theocracy to tell them how to care about that stuff, or mete out harsh punishments if they don't measure up.

Well that’s a pearl of wisdom. Though again I’m guessing the devil is in you definition. Pre multiculti Australia connected with these themes without descending to your well poisoning hyperbole. This suggests other models exist.

... despotic hellhole, then by all means share. In the mean time you'll never convince me that my country should discard it's current system of government so that it can become a test case for some theoretical system cooked up by a bunch of loopy twats on the internet. In fact I'm so invested in that not happening, that I would be willing to literally take up arms and fight to stop it in the (highly unlikely) event that it looked like it could happen.

I don’t think pre-1990s Australia was a model which would require you to take up arms.

I don't think so either. I pointed out that I didn't think that modern Australia was necessarily a counterpoint to "civic nationalism", but you didn't include that part of my post. You clipped more than half of it off, starting with the part where I asked about an alternative to a representative republic that isn't a "despotic hellhole". Pre-1990 Australia was a representative republic unless you go back to the time when it was part of the British monarchy. I don't have an opinion about that time period, because I feel like we aren't really arguing about the merits of a return to hereditary rule. You can correct me if I'm wrong about that.

I don’t know your location, but in general, I wonder to how great an extent American commentators are factoring in their ... ummmm ... unique local milieu.

That's possible, but I can't completely separate my view on things from my experience. You can't either. It's also occurred to me that we might disagree because your experiences with Muslims have been extremely different from mine. I've had a lot of these experiences, and honestly I don't have much of a concern. It sounds stupid and trite but it's actually accurate for me to say that some of my closest friends have been Muslims born in another country.

I don't know what that means. Maybe my country does a better job of keeping the undesirables out, or maybe the perception of them is worse than the reality. I can tell you that they aren't responsible for a disproportionate share of the crime in the Detroit Metro, though. And as of 2015 one of our suburbs is the first Muslim majority city in the country. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamtramck,_Michigan)

Everything is bigger and better in the states. Your free speech, your death penalty, your issues with psycho religion, your obsession with guns, your “don’t tread on me” mentality, your alt-right, your manifest destiny, your weird separation of powers between executive and legislative, your desire to punch nazis and fetish for “lock(ing) her up, your fascist civic nationalism.

Don’t ya think this may make your POV (and assessment of others POV) relatively OTT?

It’s deliciously ironic that much of the smoke and fire between us may be due to cultural influence.

I don't really know what to say to the rest of this. If I thought there was anything fascist about the general construction of the USA and its institutions, then I wouldn't be in favor of it. It's true that a lot of Americans have a right wing fervor for America that is reminiscent of fascism, but in my opinion that is a misunderstanding of what we are about, and it is more of a problem than an asset. The USA was designed around open debate and pluralism, and it was designed to be more about laws and systems than people. The fact that the president now seems like a king is more of a bug than a feature.

To somewhat touch on Keeting's point about western civilization losing self-confidence; I also see that as a problem. To me it's an issue of "too much of a good thing". It's good to be able to look at your country or your culture and be able to analyze it critically and think about what could be improved. That mindset helps drive reforms and keep a country from stagnating. But it clearly gets pathological when you have people lamenting the continued existence of America, or white males, or whatever else. On the other hand, "my country right or wrong" is also fucking pathological. It's the mindset that any shitty Mao wannabe relies on to stay in power.

My perspective on the west is that the biggest problem is that the extremes are being amplified to the point that the whole discussion is getting unmoored from reality. I'm far less worried about reaching a point where 1 in 5 Americans are Muslims than I am about self inflicted wounds resulting from crazy assholes getting power. I've been pretty clear that I think the right wingers in the US are worse than the left wingers, but if we can't slow this fucking pendulum down, we will eventually end up with Brianna Wu running against David Duke for president, and that's not something I ever want to see.

[Kirbmarc]

To somewhat touch on Keeting's point about western civilization losing self-confidence; I also see that as a problem. To me it's an issue of "too much of a good thing". It's good to be able to look at your country or your culture and be able to analyze it critically and think about what could be improved. That mindset helps drive reforms and keep a country from stagnating. But it clearly gets pathological when you have people lamenting the continued existence of America, or white males, or whatever else. On the other hand, "my country right or wrong" is also fucking pathological. It's the mindset that any shitty Mao wannabe relies on to stay in power.

Both stem from a common problem: identity politics. Reforms and maintenance are necessary. A civic mindset of conflict resolution within a liberal democratic frame is necessary. Interpreting politics through the lens of identitarian issues is antithetical to political discussion, compromise, cooperation. Identity politics are all about apocalyptic mindset of existential threat from "the enemy", whether "the enemy" is "the invaders" or "the oppressors".

It's actually similar to religion. Religion doesn't reform or improve. Religious people don't discuss their differences. They have Good and Evil, and you're either on one side or the other.

Identity politics are exploding today because social media are the perfect medium to channel anger, resentment, frustration into hatred for "the enemy". Echo chambers of self-reinforcing memes and justified explosions of anger are good to whip up political support. Of course identitarians have no clue how to actually change or run things, but they don't thrive on delivering change, they prosper on satisfying emotional needs.

[Brive1987]

Kirb, you kind of let your passion run away from you at times. :lol:

How to change things? Start with the metaphorical wall, eschew the excesses of the welfare state and consciously instil pride in national exceptionalism, commonality and shared roots.

The cattle trucks can form phase two.

[Brive1987]

[Keating]

The worst identitarians, are those who think they have no identity.

[MarcusAu]

The worst identitarians, are those who think they have no identity.

I dunno - some pretty horrible things have been done by people that have been strongly identarian..

[shoutinghorse]

Just when Canada thought they had a monopoly on embarrassing Prime Ministers, up pops the 'MayBot'





(And no she hasn't gone there to discuss the plight of white farmers but to talk trade)

[Snapfingers]

Not even Parsehole could come up with this spectacle of self-abasing neediness.

I am woke, hear me mewl.

https://imgur.com/W4VQU6Z.png

It gets worse, much worse.

https://medium.com/@katstory/white-peop ... 0fe873e5d3

"I've had a black male lover" Is that a qualifier now? I heard Milo use the same defense. I never got it. Is it supposed to show you that you are without bias or that you fetishize BBC like those cuckolding videos that I've seen that someone told me can be found online.

[Matt Cavanaugh]

I'll share this recent FB post from one of my leftist friends without need for comment:

Identity_voter.jpg

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[Hunt]

I'll share this recent FB post from one of my leftist friends without need for comment:


Identity_voter.jpg

Sorry, I only vote for Star Trek fans.

[JayTeeAitch]

The world is coming to an end.... ASMR?

I haven't watched that video but I can tell you it's real because my brother and I have had it since kids (2 out of 6 of us). I thought we were the only ones until videos started popping up on YouTube a few years ago.

The videos don't tend to work for me - but the odd one does.

What does it for me is if someone is deeply involved in something they're doing, so a girlfriend flicking though a book whilst studying, my granddad explaining how a TV works to someone else (can't be me), or someone searching for a book in a library.

It's weird - it gives me a nice tingle but, as with all good things, it only lasts for a short while after which I spend the next few minutes desperately trying to get it back like a heroin addict with his head down a toilet.

[John D]

The world is coming to an end.... ASMR?

I haven't watched that video but I can tell you it's real because my brother and I have had it since kids (2 out of 6 of us). I thought we were the only ones until videos started popping up on YouTube a few years ago.

The videos don't tend to work for me - but the odd one does.

What does it for me is if someone is deeply involved in something they're doing, so a girlfriend flicking though a book whilst studying, my granddad explaining how a TV works to someone else (can't be me), or someone searching for a book in a library.

It's weird - it gives me a nice tingle but, as with all good things, it only lasts for a short while after which I spend the next few minutes desperately trying to get it back like a heroin addict with his head down a toilet.

I realize that, after looking up the definition of ASMR, and talking to my daughter, I do get an ASMR reaction. I don't get it from any of these videos however. I get it for well performed harmonious singing (especially live). The hair on the back of my neck stands up from a perfectly sung chord. Haha. People are funny.

[SM1957]

A few problems in Chemnitz because a Syrian and an Iraqi murdered a German person at a fair. Apparently, the natives have decided that they don't like being killed.

[John D]

You betcha. I have a tomahawk, a longsword, an old bolt action .22lr, a Mossberg 500, an AR15 in 5.56 x 45mm NATO, a Savage 10 series (law enforcement) bolt action in .308 winchester with a 4x scope, an S&W 686+ .357 magnum revolver, and a 50 caliber percussion lock musket (just in case the redcoats ever come back, or the south decides to rise again). I also have a collection of fighting knives that range from small folding knives to a 14 in dirk (about 10 in all). This honestly might be a bit overkill, but I live in a crappy apartment really close to 8 mile, and I'll probably end up living south of it in the next few years, so it's nice to have options.

GOD BLESS 'MURICA!!

Do you live in fashionable Ferndale? I used to live in Detroit right on 8 Mile near Livernois in the 1960s-70s. I watched the armored cars drive down 8 Mile road during the riots. I also lived in Ferndale in the early 80s. It was rougher back then. You could watch the prostitutes walking along 8 Mile in front of the "Last Chance Bar" looking for tricks. They finally shut the place down. Now Ferndale is full of what I call "tough-hipsters". Are you a "tough-hipster"? Do you have a leather vest, earring, tattoos, and a pit bull? These are all required if you want to live in Ferndale.

I guess you could live in Warren (where I went to High School) or Southfield. Warren and Southfield are really pretty boring in my opinion.... life is more interesting in Ferndale.

[Ape+lust]

A few problems in Chemnitz because a Syrian and an Iraqi murdered a German person at a fair. Apparently, the natives have decided that they don't like being killed.

I was watching online news reports late yesterday, and right off they were calling the protesters "football hooligans." Today, having seen a skinhead or two and maybe a heil salute, they've gone straight over to "neo-Nazis."

It's depressing to see major news media no longer hides narrative enforcement is their prime job, over actual reporting.

[John D]

..... I live in a crappy apartment really close to 8 mile, and....

Remember Sam's Jams?????

download.jpg

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