There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

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Keating
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6781

Post by Keating »

I work in positioning. A lot of our clients are interested in automation. They’re specifically interested in industrial uses, so safety isn’t as much of an issue as the environment is highly controlled.

The CEO was telling me the other day about an autonomous bus that was just driving the length of a street. On its first day, it was involved in an accident. It correctly identified a reversing truck as an obstacle it should stop for, but failed to back up to give the truck room to manoeuvre. Everyone on the bus could see the accident coming, but could do nothing. No injuries or major damage given the low speed, but it really goes to show how hard it is for the developers to account for all situations.

BoxNDox
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6782

Post by BoxNDox »

Phil_Giordana_FCD wrote:
Once there was this kid who
Got into an accident and couldn't come to school
But when he finally came back
His hair had turned from black into bright white
He said that it was from when
The cars had smashed him so hard
Mmm Mmm Mmm Mmm
Once there was this girl who
Wouldn't go and change with the girls in the change room
But when they finally made her
They saw birthmarks all over her body
She couldn't quite explain it
They'd always just been there
Mmm Mmm Mmm Mmm
Mmm Mmm Mmm Mmm
But both the girl and boy were glad
'Cause one kid had it worse than that
'Cause then there was this boy whose
Parents made him come directly home right after school
And when they went to their church
They shook and lurched all over the church floor
He couldn't quite explain it
They'd always just gone there
Mmm Mmm Mmm Mmm
Mmm Mmm Mmm Mmm
Oh oh
Oh oh
Crash Test Dummies were awesome. I wish they had done more stuff.

Brive1987
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Posts: 17791
Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:16 am

Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6783

Post by Brive1987 »

Kirbmarc wrote:
Phil_Giordana_FCD wrote: What's all this shit with "white", "black", "race", "ethnicity", etc...?

As far as I'm concerned, the only important issue is culture, be it guided by religious beliefs or traditional values. Some cultures are just not compatible with each others.
Cultures aren't monolith that came from outer space, though.

They're the product of interactions of ideas, of mixing of thoughts. They copy things from each other, they influence each other. And yes, they can easily clash.

But to turn cultures into identity politics is to diminish them, disempower them. To turn values into badges of tribal affiliation is to empty them of meaning beyond "Us vs. Them".

More prosaically, sure you can limit immigration (cleverly or stupidly) but what the hell are you going to do to the people from other cultures who already live in your country? What with their children? What do you want to do in those cases?

Apartheid? Steersman-esque "population transfers?
But to turn cultures into identity politics is to diminish them, disempower them. To turn values into badges of tribal affiliation is to empty them of meaning beyond "Us vs. Them".
This is ridiculous mumbo jumbo.

Shared culture creates identity. The active retention of identity equals politics, be it positive or negative in form and function. Aggressive threats to identity invite undesirable but sometimes necessary push back. Cultural boundaries by definition delineate “us” and “thems”.

I know you are not stupid. So I assume this is ideology animating your fingers.

As for the pragmatic argument (which in any debate is the weakest offensive tactic), well a variation of FiFo is in order.

Fit in or fuck off.

jugheadnaut
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6784

Post by jugheadnaut »

free thoughtpolice wrote: ThreeFlangedJavis wrote:
. South African whites can indeed have a hard time adjusting to life overseas.
The South Africans immigrants that have moved here (western Canada) seem to have adapted pretty well. Most I know of have been medical or other professionals so results may vary for the more blue collar crowd that may have moved here.
Ditto for Toronto. Tons of white South Africans here. While personality-wise they seem to rival Serbs in general assholery level they do quite well here.

Brive1987
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6785

Post by Brive1987 »

ThreeFlangedJavis wrote:
Kirbmarc wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:47 pm
Phil_Giordana_FCD wrote: What's all this shit with "white", "black", "race", "ethnicity", etc...?

As far as I'm concerned, the only important issue is culture, be it guided by religious beliefs or traditional values. Some cultures are just not compatible with each others.
Cultures aren't monolith that came from outer space, though.

They're the product of interactions of ideas, of mixing of thoughts. They copy things from each other, they influence each other. And yes, they can easily clash.

But to turn cultures into identity politics is to diminish them, disempower them. To turn values into badges of tribal affiliation is to empty them of meaning beyond "Us vs. Them".

More prosaically, sure you can limit immigration (cleverly or stupidly) but what the hell are you going to do to the people from other cultures who already live in your country? What with their children? What do you want to do in those cases?

Apartheid? Steersman-esque "population transfers?
Tell all of that to the poor old couple who saved up for a nice quiet little flat only to see Somalis take over the area, chase everyone else out with the noise, overcrowding, khat stained streets and gangs. They can't move because their property is worth shit and they are now living in a noisy hell. The point isn't that Somali culture is "wrong", it's that it is really different in ways that a Westerner can find hard to live with. Let enough Somalis in over too short a space of time and this is what will happen and the link between race and culture here is very strong. Long term assimilation and mutual changes of culture mean jack shit too the poor sods at ground zero. Obligatory: No, I am not saying there are no Somalis who don't fit that stereotype.
I’d need to see video evidence that such neighbourhoods existed before getting your point.

pro-boxing-fan
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6786

Post by pro-boxing-fan »

Men Without Hat boring anecdote.

When i moved to Montreal about 15 years ago, i started playing music again with my old band mates from hometown (they all moved to Montreal after the band broke up). We jammed and practiced in the guitarist loft which was in one of the worst part of the city. The lofts were industrials, perfect for musicians, no direct residential neighbours, you can play as loud as you want. It also meant that legally, you could not used them as a residence but everyone was doing it nonetheless, my guitarist friend included. So worst part of town right, that also mean several pot growers and drug dealers using their loft solely for selling drugs. The loft i used to go for 'stuff' had 1 guy doing the day shift and another the night shift. A really shitty but fun microcosm of all weird activities (including automatic rifle drive by shooting once).

Now the singer of MWH, Ivan, had the loft right in front of my guitarist. Saw him a couple of time, never really talked to him but my guitarist was on friendly terms with him, jamming and recording stuff together. Anyway my point is, the place was not exactly one where i would expect a superstar to live. He didn't seem to care. Don't get the impression im saying he was poor, he was not. He was always flying between Montreal and L.A where he also own a place which i can only think was much much nicer if not a full blown rich L.A house. He was also upfront with the fact that he was making real good money from the royalties of Safety Dance (he was the writer after all) and that it was still his main income at the time (according to my guitarist).

Also met one of their ex bassist in a different context, weird guy, borderline unpleasant and i had the unwarranted conclusion that i knew why he was the ex-bassist.

Shatterface
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Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2014 2:05 pm

Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6787

Post by Shatterface »

free thoughtpolice wrote: ThreeFlangedJavis wrote:
. South African whites can indeed have a hard time adjusting to life overseas.
White South Africans are as African as Rachel Dolezal. It's a European colony. Changing their pronouns to yena won't make them Xhosa. There's no way to defend both ethnonationalism and the rights of white South Africans.
The South Africans immigrants that have moved here (western Canada) seem to have adapted pretty well. Most I know of have been medical or other professionals so results may vary for the more blue collar crowd that may have moved here.

Shatterface
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6788

Post by Shatterface »

Fecking quote fail.

White South Africans are as African as Rachel Dolezal. It's a European colony. Changing their pronouns to yena won't make them Xhosa. There's no way to defend both ethnonationalism and the rights of white South Africans.

jugheadnaut
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6789

Post by jugheadnaut »

[/quote]
Guest_d2e60302 wrote:

The dashcam view is absolutely not what you would have seen with your nekkid eyes.
I'm open to this being the case and if Uber is using the equivalent of a $20 Chinese dashcam or, much worse, fiddled with the video, there should be huge consequences. However, a camera image that is much brighter than the original dashcam footage isn't necessarily a closer approximation to what the human eye would see. An HDR photo is actually a composite of many photos, and on cameras optimized for high light sensitivity will generally be brighter than what the human eye perceives. As I previously mentioned, the images from my dashcam are actually brighter than what I see, and now that I think of it, this may not be in my interest if I get into a nighttime accident (will have to see if there's a setting for this). I have an app on my phone that can adjust the camera's light sensitivity to such extreme levels the camera effectively has night vision and I can make out objects on my phone display when to the naked eye I'm in complete darkness.

Guest_d2e60302

Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6790

Post by Guest_d2e60302 »

jugheadnaut wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:31 pm
Guest_d2e60302 wrote: I was trained and have a license to drive a car. Periodically, I have to be retested on the laws and even my ability to drive is retested. My car is regularly inspected to make sure it is safe and has no known risks. The car manufacturer tests the car, physically to make sure it is safe.

If I am found at fault in an accident, I can lose my license, lose my home, and go to jail.

This is true for me and all other drivers.

Now, some dweeb at Uber may not even have a license to drive or know how to drive. They may walk, bike, take the trolley to work.
Don't know what you're talking about. Uber drivers are required to be licensed.
I wasn't talking about uber drivers
jugheadnaut wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:31 pm
Or are you referring to the people writing the software? If so, this is such an obviously specious argument I'm not even going to bother with it.
What's specious about it? The average Uber AI software dev is probably mid 20s and has been a part time driver if that since he learned in high school and went to college and mostly knows nothing about real world driving. Living in San Francisco, there is a huge probability this person ubers to work, or rides or bikes or buses. If they live in Seattle, they probably also vote to kick cars out of the downtown area, even as they work on self driving cars.

They have limited real world knowledge, littke stake in the game, think they will live forever, is pressured by deadline and stock options, has little real world experience in software development, and thinks, as perhaps you do, that shit will happen, and we can fix it with the next commit.
jugheadnaut wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:31 pm
Guest_d2e60302 wrote: Uber has no way to systematically test their code, if they did, they wouldn't need to test it on actual roads.
Nonsense on stilts. That's what a beta test is and applies to all software. There isn't a software company in the world that would release a product before a real-world beta test, even in a trivial area where safety isn't a concern.
Lulz. The Waymo has an old military base they run scenarios on. Uber as Tempe and Phoenix.

Until you can show me the published test plans of Uber, and what those tests test, and how they are managed, there is zero reason to believe that any of their tests go very much beyond unit test before they are released into the wild for further test.

in the world that would release a product before a real-world beta test, even in a trivial area where safety isn't a concern.

For shits and giggles look up the Therac 25. Personally, I've worked on projects for American Express, the LA Fire Department, and aerospace companies where you test in house to make sure it compiles, makes sure it passes some basic "we think it will fix it test", and then you ship it to the field and watch what happens live because there is no way to simulate or duplicate or replicate in house the field conditions. That's for financial software, 911 software, and aerospace software.
jugheadnaut wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:31 pm
Guest_d2e60302 wrote:
Uber cannot show their cars are safe if there is a monitor in the car. This recent accident shows that, but even worse, it's quite conceivable a car could get itself into a position where no driver could ever save it (oops, drove off the side of the highway and now we're plunging down the canyon)
They certainly can. The monitor is there as a backup during this testing phase and the company is keeping tabs on what the monitor is doing, hence the cab facing camera. If the monitor has to frequently intervene, it will be clear the car can't be certified as a self-driving car and would not be allowed on the roads with no monitor.
Uber literally left California because California wanted Uber to publish the amount of times drivers had to intervene and Uber didn't want to let that be known.

http://www.businessinsider.com/uber-sel ... na-2016-12
California's DMV requires manufacturers to report all crashes involving autonomous vehicles within 10 business days. Manufacturers must also annually report instances when a human test driver seizes control of the vehicle from its autonomous system for safety's sake. The DMV then releases this information to the public.

Ron wouldn't guarantee that Uber would share information about accidents.
Uber is a company that brags about telling regulators to fuck off
jugheadnaut wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:31 pm
Guest_d2e60302 wrote: The nerd at Uber, the project manager at uber, the product manager at uber, the CEO at Uber, and all those lawyers at uber and their lobbyists are motivated solely by one thing, and that thing is not getting the pedestrian, the bicyclists, kids, other drivers, or even their own passenger or monitor home safely at night.

Their motivation is getting to be the number one brand name in self driving cars.
How exactly do you become the number one brand in self driving cars if you can't get your cars certified as road worthy and you're getting dozens of wrongful death lawsuits a month? It's ludicrous to think safety isn't their overriding self-interest at this point.
Uber lives and dies by first to market, and better to ask forgiveness then to ask permission.

Uber's software has failed many many many times both for drivers and riders, but no1cur, they are number one in the market not because of quality but because of presence and awareness.

Uber engineers live and die by getting completing their code, regardless of quality, shoving testing down the line so that they are seen as highly productive and good team players. And they live and die by the promise of ultra riches at the IPO.

And Uber has literally stated that they need self driving cars to even survive.

Have you seriously never been on a project that was "first to get out the door, quality be damned"?

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/03/vi ... r-program/
But it seems more likely that, even with the safety driver, Uber's self-driving cars are way more dangerous than a car driven by the average human driver.

This shouldn't surprise us. Uber executives know they're behind Waymo in developing a self-driving car, and they've been pulling out all the stops to catch up. Uber inherited a culture of rule-breaking and corner-cutting from its founder and former CEO Travis Kalanick. That combination made a tragedy like this almost inevitable.
jugheadnaut wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:31 pm
Guest_d2e60302 wrote: also, conceding a human operated vehicle would likely have hit her that is not at all clear. The pedestrian was hit on a clear night with no traffic crossing slowly within 50 feet of two functioning streetlights and was hit with a car that uses LIDAR not dashcams. What dashcams see is not at all what people see, and you can visit r/roadcam to find many videos of people swerving to avoid things that never appear on the dashcam.

http://www.thedrive.com/tech/19427/uber ... n-autonomy
With a decent quality dashcam, the image captured is extremely close to what the eye sees and isn't necessarily darker than what the eye sees at night. In fact, the nighttime images from my own dashcam are actually slightly brighter and have slightly higher contrast than what I see with my eyes. Given that the purpose of the pilots Uber is running is to gather information to prove their self-driving cars are safe, I find it impossible to believe they would be installing low-quality dashcams in their test cars. Claiming what we see in the video is not representative of what a human driver would have seen is pure supposition. BTW, I did go to r/roadcam to see if this was a common claim, and didn't find any such videos after trying several searches. I'm genuinely curious. If you can find a few, please post the links.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... zona-crash
Human Driver Could Have Avoided Fatal Uber Crash, Experts Say

The pedestrian killed Sunday by a self-driving Uber Technologies Inc. SUV had crossed at least one open lane of road before being hit, according to a video of the crash that raises new questions about autonomous-vehicle technology.

Forensic crash analysts who reviewed the video said a human driver could have responded more quickly to the situation, potentially saving the life of the victim, 49-year-old Elaine Herzberg. Other experts said Uber’s self-driving sensors should have detected the pedestrian as she walked a bicycle across the open road at 10 p.m., despite the dark conditions.

Zachary Moore, a senior forensic engineer at Wexco International Corp. who has reconstructed vehicle accidents and other incidents for more than a decade, analyzed the video footage and concluded that a typical driver on a dry asphalt road would have perceived, reacted, and activated their brakes in time to stop about eight feet short of Herzberg.
BTW, I did go to r/roadcam to see if this was a common claim, and didn't find any such videos after trying several searches. I'm genuinely curious. If you can find a few, please post the links.
Well, when I said "many" it's more like over time, not every day. Someone posted a video in a comment yesterday compiling three of them, but I watched too much youtube yesterday and can't pin which video it is in my history, and cannot go back and find the comment.

But, with only assertion on my side and some posts at reddit and by journalists, you're wrong. Everyone today agrees, the photograph evidence from yesterday, the expert analysis, shows that the dashcam footage uber provided is highly misleading.

And I don't know what your background in engineering and software development is, but it seems naive and romantic at best, or else, I am very jealous of the companies you have worked at, because none of the projects I've worked on have ever worked that way. You do what you can in house, but eventually, it gets pushed out on a wing and a prayer, relatively untested, because it's impossible to recreate all the zillions of configurations users will have, or the equipment is one of a kind and unique and millions to cost, or users are just bound to use your software in bizarre and unexpected ways but for good reasons in ways you never anticipated.

That's why I differ with John D above, Waymo does it's best to recreate real world scenarios on its test track, but one day a Waymo car will be driving on a mountain curve sloped in the wrong direction in Arizona during a thunderstorm or hailstorm when a javelina and/or stopped car and/or bicylist will appear out of the blue.

They are not testing, cannot test for everything, and yet the Ubers are very closed about how they test and what they test and they do this with the cover of the governors for the sake of high tech jobs.

Guest_d2e60302

Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6791

Post by Guest_d2e60302 »

I'm open to this being the case and if Uber is using the equivalent of a $20 Chinese dashcam or, much worse, fiddled with the video, there should be huge consequences. However, a camera image that is much brighter than the original dashcam footage isn't necessarily a closer approximation to what the human eye would see. An HDR photo is actually a composite of many photos, and on cameras optimized for high light sensitivity will generally be brighter than what the human eye perceives. As I previously mentioned, the images from my dashcam are actually brighter than what I see, and now that I think of it, this may not be in my interest if I get into a nighttime accident (will have to see if there's a setting for this). I have an app on my phone that can adjust the camera's light sensitivity to such extreme levels the camera effectively has night vision and I can make out objects on my phone display when to the naked eye I'm in complete darkness.
I doubt the car ist using this camera to drive with, this camera is for forensic post mortem [no pun intended] analysis. It is there to show to the devs sort of what the car should have been seeing when it drove off the pier, and probably mostly there the same reason there are voice recorders. So the FAA and NHTSA can blame the pilot.

pro-boxing-fan
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6792

Post by pro-boxing-fan »

Guest_d2e60302 wrote: The average Uber AI software dev is probably mid 20s
I really but really disagree with you on that point. AI is one of the few branch of software development where having a Phd is the normal and i doubt Uber hire most of their engineers right out of school.

Keating
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6793

Post by Keating »

Shatterface wrote: Fecking quote fail.

White South Africans are as African as Rachel Dolezal. It's a European colony. Changing their pronouns to yena won't make them Xhosa. There's no way to defend both ethnonationalism and the rights of white South Africans.
South Africa was colonised from 1652.

Are the Huguenots in the UK British? That was 1680s.

Canada started being colonised in the early 1500s. Is it only a European colony too?

Australia was completely uninhabited until about 50,000 years ago. Does that make it an Asian colony, or is that long enough ago that only the more recent European arrivals count?

Is Berlin a Turkish colony? Is Kirb Swiss or a Turkish colonist?

John D
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6794

Post by John D »

So.... more specifically. I have worked in the auto industry on mechatronic systems for decades. I was on the design team that created the first anti-lock brake system for Ford Motor company on the Lincoln MkVIII. Yeah... that's decades ago. Current I am working (not my full time job) on demos and sales presentations for steer-by-wire systems for cars.

The proper way to make these products is with extensive simulation, software fault injection, and real world fault injection. It is a grueling, disciplined, and expensive process. In the proper mainstream auto industry, millions of cars can get recalled because one single driver had a dangerous fender bender. The regular auto industry is fantastically safe. We work our fucking ass off on this shit.

So, now, a bunch of shitty startups with no discipline are getting approval to run dangerous products on public streets just so politicians can get credit for moving technology forward. NHTSA is allowing a free for all that is endangering peoples lives and giving reckless companies a free ride.

Seriously, I reviewed the Uber videos with many of my coworkers today. We were shocked that a system on public roads would have such an obvious failure. The only excuse is that undisciplined and reckless work is being promoted as cutting edge. It is a scam. I mean... fuck... an AGV in a factory does a better job at collision detection than that fucking piece of shit Uber car.

And... wow... the public. Jesus Christ I hate people. They are all saying... well... that pedestrian was j-walking so it is the pedestrians fault. HOLY FUCKING SHIT. That car should have detected that pedestrian hundreds of feet earlier. That is what the system is supposed to do! That is why people say it will be safer than drivers. Fuck me in the ass. This is fucked up.

<end of rant>

jugheadnaut
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6795

Post by jugheadnaut »

Guest_d2e60302 wrote:

I doubt the car ist using this camera to drive with, this camera is for forensic post mortem [no pun intended] analysis. It is there to show to the devs sort of what the car should have been seeing when it drove off the pier, and probably mostly there the same reason there are voice recorders. So the FAA and NHTSA can blame the pilot.
I'm sure that camera wasn't actually used as part of the self-driving functionality of the car. But the whole purpose of this pilot is to gather data, so if (and it's still a big if) they're using an el cheapo camera, it points to a serious lack of rigor in their test design.

Guest_d2e60302

Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6796

Post by Guest_d2e60302 »

pro-boxing-fan wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:55 pm
Guest_d2e60302 wrote: The average Uber AI software dev is probably mid 20s
I really but really disagree with you on that point. AI is one of the few branch of software development where having a Phd is the normal and i doubt Uber hire most of their engineers right out of school.
I dunno, I get the impression most of uber software devs are 20 somethings, and that uber's ai team came from the "purchase" of CMUs AI lab.

Do they all have phds? I doubt it. I suspect a lot of them may have been working towards that, and that a lot of them have a BS in CS and a lot of ML, and CV, maybe masters degrees.

https://www.uber.com/careers/list/31024/
AI Research Scientist (Self Driving)

What You'll Need

A degree in a machine learning related discipline -- positions are available at the PhD, MS, and BS levels
I know I worked on old timey AI at a time when I had a masters in CS and was a member of a team with 2 phds, and two MSs, and two of us were in our 20s, and two old timers in their early 30s. We won prizes for our works, and those AI apps ran for 20 years.

But you could be right and they are older on average than their mid 20s.

jugheadnaut
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6797

Post by jugheadnaut »

John D wrote:
The proper way to make these products is with extensive simulation, software fault injection, and real world fault injection. It is a grueling, disciplined, and expensive process. In the proper mainstream auto industry, millions of cars can get recalled because one single driver had a dangerous fender bender. The regular auto industry is fantastically safe. We work our fucking ass off on this shit.

So, now, a bunch of shitty startups with no discipline are getting approval to run dangerous products on public streets just so politicians can get credit for moving technology forward. NHTSA is allowing a free for all that is endangering peoples lives and giving reckless companies a free ride.
And you've managed to deduce this isn't done at Uber from a video that, at this point, strongly suggests that a human driven vehicle would not have been able to avoid the impact. If I recall correctly, Uber poached a ton of engineering talent from the big auto makers when they decided to get into this space. Of course, I don't know for certain, but it seems likely they use the same methodologies.

In engineering school you were probably taught the aphorism 'don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good'. You say the auto industry is fantastically safe. I'm sure you know 40,000 people in the U.S. are killed every year in car accidents, with driver error being the leading cause. The testing of autonomous vehicles on public roads isn't just starting now. There have been millions of miles of road tests and their safety record isn't just a little better than human operated vehicles, but hugely better, so that exceeds 'fantastically safe' by your reckoning. Even so, I don't think anyone doubts much more testing needs to be done before they become widespread. While it would be nice if they were perfect and could avoid accidents even in extremely challenging situations like this one, if they're safer than conventional vehicles, then hampering their development by requiring perfection will kill people, not save them.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6798

Post by free thoughtpolice »

John D wrote:
Guest_d2e60302 wrote:

The dashcam view is absolutely not what you would have seen with your nekkid eyes.
Wow... crap. The driver could have easily seen the pedestrian if this is a more accurate view of the lighting. Oh my.
Once you have the automated driving option what is the incentive to be alert to what is going on? The he/she

Really?
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6799

Post by Really? »

Guest_d2e60302 wrote:
jugheadnaut wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:28 pm
John D wrote:
1) For sure the pedestrian was do something really stupid... j-walking at night across a high speed road. If this had been a normal vehicle she would be asking for trouble.
Well, at least you've gone from "just strolling across the road" to "doing something really stupid" and conceding a human operated vehicle would likely have hit her. It certainly would be nice if autonomous vehicles were so much safer than human operated it could avoid situations like this, and there's a good chance some tech in the car didn't work as designed and Uber should certainly investigate and improve the design. But how much safer than a human operated vehicle does an autonomous vehicle have to be before you won't call on the NHTSA to ground the fleet? If an autonomous vehicle is 20% safer than a human operated vehicle, but there are certain areas where the tech isn't working as well as hoped, should the cars be pulled off the road? How does that promote road safety? There's a natural regulatory bias where adverse events caused by something are weighted far higher than the benefits produced by that thing which has frequently had the effect of keeping beneficial products off the market, especially in pharmaceuticals. I'd rather that not happen with autonomous vehicles.
I was trained and have a license to drive a car. Periodically, I have to be retested on the laws and even my ability to drive is retested. My car is regularly inspected to make sure it is safe and has no known risks. The car manufacturer tests the car, physically to make sure it is safe.

If I am found at fault in an accident, I can lose my license, lose my home, and go to jail.

This is true for me and all other drivers.

Now, some dweeb at Uber may not even have a license to drive or know how to drive. They may walk, bike, take the trolley to work.

If they have a bug in the program, they will not lose a license, or pay a fine, or go to jail.

They may not even find the bug for years and years ... and years.

Uber has no way to systematically test their code, if they did, they wouldn't need to test it on actual roads.

Uber cannot show their cars are safe if there is a monitor in the car. This recent accident shows that, but even worse, it's quite conceivable a car could get itself into a position where no driver could ever save it (oops, drove off the side of the highway and now we're plunging down the canyon)

None of us have signed any consent forms granting our acceptance into this brave new world of auto experimentation, and it's very much unclear that the governors and mayors that grant our consent have any real understanding of how this shit actually works or what its limitations are.

The nerd at Uber, the project manager at uber, the product manager at uber, the CEO at Uber, and all those lawyers at uber and their lobbyists are motivated solely by one thing, and that thing is not getting the pedestrian, the bicyclists, kids, other drivers, or even their own passenger or monitor home safely at night.

Their motivation is getting to be the number one brand name in self driving cars.

also, conceding a human operated vehicle would likely have hit her that is not at all clear. The pedestrian was hit on a clear night with no traffic crossing slowly within 50 feet of two functioning streetlights and was hit with a car that uses LIDAR not dashcams. What dashcams see is not at all what people see, and you can visit r/roadcam to find many videos of people swerving to avoid things that never appear on the dashcam.

http://www.thedrive.com/tech/19427/uber ... n-autonomy
You make many good points. Did the Uber computer pass the written test, given in the kiosk at the bureau? Did t have a road test with a tester or police officer deciding whether it should be licensed? Most importantly, who goes to jail for reckless driving when these things happen? Who pays the victim's family? Uber? Their insurance company?

Never mind. Let's keep implementing these technologies without thinking of consequences.

Really?
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Posts: 6460
Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2013 2:34 pm

Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6800

Post by Really? »

jugheadnaut wrote:
John D wrote:
The proper way to make these products is with extensive simulation, software fault injection, and real world fault injection. It is a grueling, disciplined, and expensive process. In the proper mainstream auto industry, millions of cars can get recalled because one single driver had a dangerous fender bender. The regular auto industry is fantastically safe. We work our fucking ass off on this shit.

So, now, a bunch of shitty startups with no discipline are getting approval to run dangerous products on public streets just so politicians can get credit for moving technology forward. NHTSA is allowing a free for all that is endangering peoples lives and giving reckless companies a free ride.
And you've managed to deduce this isn't done at Uber from a video that, at this point, strongly suggests that a human driven vehicle would not have been able to avoid the impact. If I recall correctly, Uber poached a ton of engineering talent from the big auto makers when they decided to get into this space. Of course, I don't know for certain, but it seems likely they use the same methodologies.

In engineering school you were probably taught the aphorism 'don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good'. You say the auto industry is fantastically safe. I'm sure you know 40,000 people in the U.S. are killed every year in car accidents, with driver error being the leading cause. The testing of autonomous vehicles on public roads isn't just starting now. There have been millions of miles of road tests and their safety record isn't just a little better than human operated vehicles, but hugely better, so that exceeds 'fantastically safe' by your reckoning. Even so, I don't think anyone doubts much more testing needs to be done before they become widespread. While it would be nice if they were perfect and could avoid accidents even in extremely challenging situations like this one, if they're safer than conventional vehicles, then hampering their development by requiring perfection will kill people, not save them.
You're also hitting on another important point. If the computers make the same mistakes as some small fraction of humans (who can be imprisoned and/or charged), why would we let Uber replace taxi drivers and their own employees who aren't actually employees? What is the end game here? Wall-E?

Ape+lust
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6801

Post by Ape+lust »

My name is Rice Kris-Peez and I'm here to say... :bjarte:

https://imgur.com/kPPHNqH.png

Peez brings NWA's dopest troof: "Fuck tha police."

http://archive.is/iJXTA

Oh hey... it's Ice Cube!

https://imgur.com/VqwdxGM.png

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/peop ... 63211.html

What a pussy. Stay hard, Peez. Go punch a cop.

Really?
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6802

Post by Really? »

free thoughtpolice wrote:
John D wrote:
Guest_d2e60302 wrote:

The dashcam view is absolutely not what you would have seen with your nekkid eyes.
Wow... crap. The driver could have easily seen the pedestrian if this is a more accurate view of the lighting. Oh my.
Once you have the automated driving option what is the incentive to be alert to what is going on? The he/she
Incentive? Not killing someone?

jugheadnaut
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Posts: 1495
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 9:09 pm

Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6803

Post by jugheadnaut »

jugheadnaut wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:31 pm
Or are you referring to the people writing the software? If so, this is such an obviously specious argument I'm not even going to bother with it.
Guest_d2e60302 wrote:
What's specious about it? The average Uber AI software dev is probably mid 20s and has been a part time driver if that since he learned in high school and went to college and mostly knows nothing about real world driving. Living in San Francisco, there is a huge probability this person ubers to work, or rides or bikes or buses. If they live in Seattle, they probably also vote to kick cars out of the downtown area, even as they work on self driving cars.

They have limited real world knowledge, littke stake in the game, think they will live forever, is pressured by deadline and stock options, has little real world experience in software development, and thinks, as perhaps you do, that shit will happen, and we can fix it with the next commit.
I'll stick to discussing software development, since I think people are probably growing weary of the Uber debate, and there will be much higher quality information released eventually so I'll reserve further judgement until then.

Do you think avionics programmers need to be pilots? Or electronic health record developers need to be doctors? Or banking software developers need to be finance experts? Programmers develop to a spec, and that spec is written by domain experts. The autonomous vehicle software developers never have to think about actual driving mechanics when they're coding, they're focusing on some general computer vision task, numerically solving differential equations that were handed to them, and implementing decision trees that they themselves did not create.


Guest_d2e60302 wrote: Lulz. The Waymo has an old military base they run scenarios on. Uber as Tempe and Phoenix.

Until you can show me the published test plans of Uber, and what those tests test, and how they are managed, there is zero reason to believe that any of their tests go very much beyond unit test before they are released into the wild for further test.
Pure speculation. But, yeah, Hitchens, asserted without evidence, dismissed without evidence, and so forth.
Guest_d2e60302 wrote: in the world that would release a product before a real-world beta test, even in a trivial area where safety isn't a concern.

For shits and giggles look up the Therac 25. Personally, I've worked on projects for American Express, the LA Fire Department, and aerospace companies where you test in house to make sure it compiles, makes sure it passes some basic "we think it will fix it test", and then you ship it to the field and watch what happens live because there is no way to simulate or duplicate or replicate in house the field conditions. That's for financial software, 911 software, and aerospace software.

Have you seriously never been on a project that was "first to get out the door, quality be damned"?
jugheadnaut wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:31 pm
Most of my software development experience is with commercial software companies, not internal software development. My experience has covered several domains, including healthcare records, web authoring tools, and scientific simulation software. And, perhaps I've been lucky, but at each and every one these companies the very idea of releasing software without formal QA cycles and full alpha and beta tests would be absolutely unthinkable. I do know many developers who have spent most of their careers in software development shops within non-software companies doing internal projects and I've heard horror stories. But my experience is that anything getting a commercial release is handled with care and rigor.

pro-boxing-fan
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6804

Post by pro-boxing-fan »

jugheadnaut wrote: Do you think avionics programmers need to be pilots? Or electronic health record developers need to be doctors? Or banking software developers need to be finance experts? Programmers develop to a spec, and that spec is written by domain experts. The autonomous vehicle software developers never have to think about actual driving mechanics when they're coding, they're focusing on some general computer vision task, numerically solving differential equations that were handed to them, and implementing decision trees that they themselves did not create.
Yep. While im waiting for that person who's gonna hire me for a Boxing app, i have to eat so im developing a full software solution for caterers, i know noting about catering but i can follow the specs.

Guest_d2e60302

Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6805

Post by Guest_d2e60302 »

jugheadnaut wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:02 pm

I'll stick to discussing software development, since I think people are probably growing weary of the Uber debate, and there will be much higher quality information released eventually so I'll reserve further judgement until then.

Do you think avionics programmers need to be pilots? Or electronic health record developers need to be doctors? Or banking software developers need to be finance experts? Programmers develop to a spec, and that spec is written by domain experts. The autonomous vehicle software developers never have to think about actual driving mechanics when they're coding, they're focusing on some general computer vision task, numerically solving differential equations that were handed to them, and implementing decision trees that they themselves did not create.
Many avionics programmers are indeed pilots. But avionics software is written to comply with many standards, some specific to writing avionics software, some specific to being installed into an aircraft.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avionics_software
Due to safety requirements, most nations regulate avionics, or at least adopt standards in use by a group of allies or a customs union. The three regulatory organizations that most affect international aviation development are the U.S, the E.U. and Russia.

In the U.S., avionic and other aircraft components have safety and reliability standards mandated by the Federal Aviation Regulations, Part 25 for Transport Airplanes, Part 23 for Small Airplanes, and Parts 27 and 29 for Rotorcraft. These standards are enforced by "designated engineering representatives" of the FAA who are usually paid by a manufacturer and certified by the FAA.

In the European Union the IEC describes "recommended" requirements for safety-critical systems, which are usually adopted without change by governments. A safe, reliable piece of avionics has a "CE Mark." The regulatory arrangement is remarkably similar to fire safety in the U.S. and Canada. The government certifies testing laboratories, and the laboratories certify both manufactured items and organizations. Essentially, the oversight of the engineering is outsourced from the government and manufacturer to the testing laboratory.

To assure safety and reliability, national regulatory authorities (e.g. the FAA, CAA, or DOD) require software development standards. Some representative standards include MIL-STD-2167 for military systems, or RTCA DO-178B and its successor DO-178C for civil aircraft.

The regulatory requirements for this software can be expensive compared to other software, but they are usually the minimum that is required to produce the necessary safety.
DO-178C has been out for five years. DO-178B came out in 1992.

Plus there's all this shit too:
DO-178B alone is not intended to guarantee software safety aspects. Safety attributes in the design and as implemented as functionality must receive additional mandatory system safety tasks to drive and show objective evidence of meeting explicit safety requirements. Typically IEEE STD-1228-1994 Software Safety Plans are allocated and software safety analyses tasks are accomplished in sequential steps (requirements analysis, top level design analysis, detailed design analysis, code level analysis, test analysis and change analysis). These software safety tasks and artifacts are integral supporting parts of the process for hazard severity and DAL determination to be documented in system safety assessments (SSA). The certification authorities require and DO-178B specifies the correct DAL be established using these comprehensive analyses methods to establish the software level A-E. Any software that commands, controls, and monitors safety-critical functions should receive the highest DAL - Level A. It is the software safety analyses that drive the system safety assessments that determine the DAL that drives the appropriate level of rigor in DO-178B. The system safety assessments combined with methods such as SAE ARP 4754A determine the after mitigation DAL and may allow reduction of the DO-178B software level objectives to be satisfied if redundancy, design safety features and other architectural forms of hazard mitigation are in requirements driven by the safety analyses. Therefore, DO-178B central theme is design assurance and verification after the prerequisite safety requirements have been established.
What standards does Uber's self driving car software have to meet?
How is it tested?
What are those test results?

NHTSA and the FAA and the manufacturers can go to any piece of avionics gear and produce answers, test results, and signatures for all of that.

Can Uber? No.
Will Uber? They've already said no, and left California over it.
Programmers develop to a spec, and that spec is written by domain experts
Um. In ideal-world maybe, but there is no guarantee of that happening at all in the real world. What spec was Amazon's first website written to? Something Bezos consed up basically.

Quicken was spec'd by Scott Cook, and economist with an MBA, not an accountant and written bu Tom Proulx a math major. Neither are "domain experts" in ideal-land but both are classic examples of domain experts in real world land.

This stuff, as well or as bad as it works is spec'd by AI Phds on white boards, maybe with some physicists and engineers and is being invented as we talk. There are no amazingly awesome domain experts, which is why Google can sue over a lidar patent to resolve the suit when it turns out almost none of Google's amazing lidar work was actually being used.

Again, I am jealous of your work experience, because I've only ended up in places where everyone is rushed, have a huge deadline, and are flying by the seat of our pants, and the domain experts come in once a year, or you can find them on slack, but you're told to be careful with their time because they charge a bundle and after all you have a degree, just get it done.

https://www.wired.com/story/congress-au ... gulations/
CONGRESS FINALLY GETS SERIOUS ABOUT REGULATING SELF-DRIVING CARS

SEVEN YEARS AFTER Google started developing robocars, 14 months after a Florida man died in a Tesla Model S that was driving itself, and almost a year after self-driving Ubers started picking up passengers in Pennsylvania, Congress might actually start regulating autonomous vehicles.

Nearly everyone working on this emerging technology, from automakers to the tech companies to the government watchdogs, agrees that it's about time. The robocars scurrying about places like Austin and Boston and San Francisco operate under a mélange of state and local rules that lay down different requirements and appease myriad special interests. And if this patchwork persists, bringing these cars to the market could be a major headache.
So Avionics software, all of those domains you discuss have existed for decades, were started by guys in their garages with no domain experts, and have, over the years, grown up to have actual domain experts and actual processes.

And then there is this new gold rush of Uber with a history of flouting regulations whenever it can depending on self driving cars as its hail mary and you say, "unless you can point to specific evidence they are fudging things there is no reason not to think they are doing the right thing" even after their terrible history of covering up running red lights and repeatedly almost hitting bicyclists in San Francisco, getting kicked out of California, and now killing people in Arizona.

So "Do you think avionics programmers need to be pilots?" No. But they have an institutional knowledge and regulations and standards that Uber's devs just don't have. And their incentives are salary and promotions and getting the kids through college, while Uber's engineers are working on stock options and getting to market first.

Guest_d2e60302

Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6806

Post by Guest_d2e60302 »

So "Do you think avionics programmers need to be pilots?" No. But they have an institutional knowledge and regulations and standards that Uber's devs just don't have. And their incentives are salary and promotions and getting the kids through college, while Uber's engineers are working on stock options and getting to market first.
So yes, I think it is important to understand that Jill or John Engineer, writing self-driving car software, should basically be absolute experts in driving cars and not just rely on "specs" handed down to them when implementing car driving software that will be let out on the roads of the world. Other wise when push come to shove they will make mistakes, and not recognize dangerous aspects of what they code, or problem conditions they need to test for.

If a bank wants to let innumerates write their banking code using node.js based on specs alone, hey it's not my money.

Keating
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Posts: 2421
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2015 3:18 pm
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6807

Post by Keating »

Possibly of interest to the Kirb/Brive discussion and for Steersman to copy and paste for a while,


Lsuoma
Fascist Tit
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6808

Post by Lsuoma »

Steersman may not be a nigger, but s/h/it is a cunt.

In the early days of the Pit, I called s/h/it Steerzo, and s/h/it called me Lymphoma.

Well, I now have lymphoma. Found out today. Steerzo is a cunt.

And probably a nigger too.

katamari Damassi
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Posts: 5429
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:32 am

Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6809

Post by katamari Damassi »

Lsuoma wrote: Steersman may not be a nigger, but s/h/it is a cunt.

In the early days of the Pit, I called s/h/it Steerzo, and s/h/it called me Lymphoma.

Well, I now have lymphoma. Found out today. Steerzo is a cunt.

And probably a nigger too.
Wow! Sorry to hear that FT. Hodgkins or Non-Hodgkins? I'm a Hodgkins lymphoma survivor myself(nodular sclerosing stage 2), so let me know if there's anything I can do to help.
:(

Lsuoma
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6810

Post by Lsuoma »

Non. Still dealing with it. Thanks for the offer of help.

Lsuoma
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6811

Post by Lsuoma »

Steerzo is still a cunt.

Lsuoma
Fascist Tit
Posts: 11692
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6812

Post by Lsuoma »

And a nagger.

Kirbmarc
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Posts: 10577
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 8:29 am

Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6813

Post by Kirbmarc »

Keating wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:57 pm
Shatterface wrote: Fecking quote fail.

White South Africans are as African as Rachel Dolezal. It's a European colony. Changing their pronouns to yena won't make them Xhosa. There's no way to defend both ethnonationalism and the rights of white South Africans.
South Africa was colonised from 1652.

Are the Huguenots in the UK British? That was 1680s.

Canada started being colonised in the early 1500s. Is it only a European colony too?

Australia was completely uninhabited until about 50,000 years ago. Does that make it an Asian colony, or is that long enough ago that only the more recent European arrivals count?

Is Berlin a Turkish colony? Is Kirb Swiss or a Turkish colonist?
But that's exactly the point!

White South Africans have been there for generations, the country is their home, and while they had a vicious race-based exclusionary and authoritarian regime they have every right to be there now, and instead of promoting ethno-nationalistic anti-white South African attitudes, which won't lead to anything good, the South African politicians should be trying to work on a more integrate civic platform.

Similarly there are many non-white people who live in Europe stably now, some of them have been are even second generation. You need to try to figure out a way to integrate those people, not just promote ethno-nationalism, which is unlikely to lead to anything good.

This is a matter that is related to immigration, but not one and the same. Immigration restrictions on pragmatic bases that include some considerations for how likely the immigrants are to integrate and assimilate are one thing, promoting the idea that race/ethnicity is the core element of the laws, principles and institutions of a country is another.

Kirbmarc
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Posts: 10577
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 8:29 am

Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6814

Post by Kirbmarc »

Lsuoma wrote: Steerzo is still a cunt.
Correct. And sorry to hear that, Lsuoma.

Ape+lust
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6815

Post by Ape+lust »

Aw geez, Boss :(

Keating
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Posts: 2421
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2015 3:18 pm
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6816

Post by Keating »

Really sorry to hear that. My mum had that in the 80s and is still going strong.

Brive1987
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Posts: 17791
Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:16 am

Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6817

Post by Brive1987 »

Lsuoma wrote: Steersman may not be a nigger, but s/h/it is a cunt.

In the early days of the Pit, I called s/h/it Steerzo, and s/h/it called me Lymphoma.

Well, I now have lymphoma. Found out today. Steerzo is a cunt.

And probably a nigger too.
Shit. Despite the (relatively) opimisitic figures I immediately googled, that is fucked. Sorry to hear it.

Here is one of the better figures I unearthed. It might make you feel better.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/imag ... cIoLRbP_XA

Guest_d2e60302

Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6818

Post by Guest_d2e60302 »


Why I took so long to realize I’m a trans lesbian
Riley J. DennisPublished on Mar 22, 2018
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Thanks to this video's sponsor Dollar Shave Club, new members get their 1st month of the ‘Sh*t,
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Dollar Shave Club, the Official Shave Club for trans lesbians.

For your face, back, and bum, no one tops Dollar Shave.

MacGruberKnows
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Posts: 1768
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2014 6:27 pm

Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6819

Post by MacGruberKnows »

shoutinghorse wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:12 am
It might help if they didn't all have to go and "powder their nose" at the same fucking time :think:

https://i.imgur.com/1H465PL.png

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyl ... SApp_Other
Teach women to urinate in the sinks like all of us guys did in the bar I used to go to many many years ago.

In fact I think after about midnight guys would go into the womens washroom and shove the women applying makeup out of the way to piss in their sinks.

The good ole days.

As they say about sinks, use it or lose it.

Kirbmarc
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Posts: 10577
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 8:29 am

Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6820

Post by Kirbmarc »

Guest_d2e60302 wrote:
Why I took so long to realize I’m a trans lesbian
Riley J. DennisPublished on Mar 22, 2018
Join the Club: http://www.dollarshaveclub.com/riley

Thanks to this video's sponsor Dollar Shave Club, new members get their 1st month of the ‘Sh*t,
Shower, Shave’ Starter Set including the Executive Razor and trial-sized versions of their Shave Butter, Body Cleanser and One Wipe Charlies’ Butt Wipes for ONLY $5 with FREE shipping. After that razors are just a few bucks a month.
Dollar Shave Club, the Official Shave Club for trans lesbians.

For your face, back, and bum, no one tops Dollar Shave.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCTbFN0EsDM

MacGruberKnows
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Posts: 1768
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2014 6:27 pm

Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6821

Post by MacGruberKnows »

Brive1987 wrote:
Lsuoma wrote: Steersman may not be a nigger, but s/h/it is a cunt.

In the early days of the Pit, I called s/h/it Steerzo, and s/h/it called me Lymphoma.

Well, I now have lymphoma. Found out today. Steerzo is a cunt.

And probably a nigger too.
Shit. Despite the (relatively) opimisitic figures I immediately googled, that is fucked. Sorry to hear it.

Here is one of the better figures I unearthed. It might make you feel better.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/imag ... cIoLRbP_XA
Her hip to waist ratio is closer to a man's than a women's.

So, no.

Brive1987
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Posts: 17791
Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:16 am

Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6822

Post by Brive1987 »

Kirbmarc wrote:
Keating wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:57 pm
Shatterface wrote: Fecking quote fail.

White South Africans are as African as Rachel Dolezal. It's a European colony. Changing their pronouns to yena won't make them Xhosa. There's no way to defend both ethnonationalism and the rights of white South Africans.
South Africa was colonised from 1652.

Are the Huguenots in the UK British? That was 1680s.

Canada started being colonised in the early 1500s. Is it only a European colony too?

Australia was completely uninhabited until about 50,000 years ago. Does that make it an Asian colony, or is that long enough ago that only the more recent European arrivals count?

Is Berlin a Turkish colony? Is Kirb Swiss or a Turkish colonist?
But that's exactly the point!

White South Africans have been there for generations, the country is their home, and while they had a vicious race-based exclusionary and authoritarian regime they have every right to be there now, and instead of promoting ethno-nationalistic anti-white South African attitudes, which won't lead to anything good, the South African politicians should be trying to work on a more integrate civic platform.

Similarly there are many non-white people who live in Europe stably now, some of them have been are even second generation. You need to try to figure out a way to integrate those people, not just promote ethno-nationalism, which is unlikely to lead to anything good.

This is a matter that is related to immigration, but not one and the same. Immigration restrictions on pragmatic bases that include some considerations for how likely the immigrants are to integrate and assimilate are one thing, promoting the idea that race/ethnicity is the core element of the laws, principles and institutions of a country is another.
South Africa is a dumb example. As you know.

There was no mass migration into an extant culture and society - apart from the late period black immigration flocking to the modern economy. The colonial wars of the 17th and 18th century in no way approximate the liberal capitulation of the post Second World War west.

Despite never numbering more than 20%, the South African whites managed to establish the dominant culture. Interestiing as that is, it has no equivalence to Western Europe.

But you knew that. Didn’t you.

pro-boxing-fan
Pit Art Master
Pit Art Master
Posts: 622
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6823

Post by pro-boxing-fan »

Shit Lsuoma, that's a harsh curve ball.

Brive have the wrong figure:

https://i.pinimg.com/564x/18/1a/a5/181a ... 2a84e6.jpg

Kirbmarc
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6824

Post by Kirbmarc »

Ape+lust wrote: My name is Rice Kris-Peez and I'm here to say... :bjarte:

https://imgur.com/kPPHNqH.png

Peez brings NWA's dopest troof: "Fuck tha police."

http://archive.is/iJXTA

Oh hey... it's Ice Cube!

https://imgur.com/VqwdxGM.png

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/peop ... 63211.html

What a pussy. Stay hard, Peez. Go punch a cop.
Nuance is not for people who think it'd be so funny if someone who posts quotes of their old comments on islam bashed their own brains in with a ball-peen hammer.

Brive1987
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6825

Post by Brive1987 »


feathers
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6826

Post by feathers »

Guest_d2e60302 wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:36 pm
What's specious about it? The average Uber AI software dev is probably mid 20s and has been a part time driver if that since he learned in high school and went to college and mostly knows nothing about real world driving. Living in San Francisco, there is a huge probability this person ubers to work, or rides or bikes or buses. If they live in Seattle, they probably also vote to kick cars out of the downtown area, even as they work on self driving cars.

They have limited real world knowledge, littke stake in the game, think they will live forever, is pressured by deadline and stock options, has little real world experience in software development, and thinks, as perhaps you do, that shit will happen, and we can fix it with the next commit.
This is quickly veering off into bizarre speculation. "The average pacemaker engineer at Boston Scientific is probably mid 20s and has never had a heart disease. Living in the north-east, they'll probably never need a pacemaker before getting killed. They think they will live forever..."

Brive1987
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6827

Post by Brive1987 »

What is the correct multiple to use when recalculating white on black killings?

It would help if I could also get an accurate deflator to use for the reverse.


SM1957
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6828

Post by SM1957 »

I am also a 61 year old white man.

I'm looking for ways to monetize my white privilege. I've thought of becoming a model for L'Oreal.

Are there any other ways to turn my white privilege into cash?

Guest_d2e60302

Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6829

Post by Guest_d2e60302 »

feathers wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:41 pm
Guest_d2e60302 wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:36 pm
What's specious about it? The average Uber AI software dev is probably mid 20s and has been a part time driver if that since he learned in high school and went to college and mostly knows nothing about real world driving. Living in San Francisco, there is a huge probability this person ubers to work, or rides or bikes or buses. If they live in Seattle, they probably also vote to kick cars out of the downtown area, even as they work on self driving cars.

They have limited real world knowledge, littke stake in the game, think they will live forever, is pressured by deadline and stock options, has little real world experience in software development, and thinks, as perhaps you do, that shit will happen, and we can fix it with the next commit.
This is quickly veering off into bizarre speculation. "The average pacemaker engineer at Boston Scientific is probably mid 20s and has never had a heart disease. Living in the north-east, they'll probably never need a pacemaker before getting killed. They think they will live forever..."
The average pacemaker company is a Fortune 500 packed with 60 year old scientists and engineers working in medical and legal realm, they are not a VC funded startup that literally thinks anyone over the age of 35 is too old to be working in software.

That pacemaker company has roots in GE or similar companies and develops software the old fashioned way, and understands their problem domain and can simulate and measure most of the parameters involved.

That pacemaker company is NOT doing primary research and thinking to themselves, just how do we get this darn thing to work? That is left to the phds and doctors in the hospitals and unis.

The average engineer at the pacemaker company views his/her compensation as

+ dollars
+ vacation
+ medical

This is not Uber. This is not even Waymo. It might be Ford and Volvo.

None of you can point to a phone and think, this phone works fantastic and is 100% reliable! All of you have seen dozens of issues with software at Google or Facebook or Apple or Amazon. Somehow you think Uber's software engineers, no strike that, Uber's AI division is run differently than Uber's other engineers or Apple or Google or Facebook or Amazon.

And you're "I don't care how little experience these mofos have with cars, they'll get their specs from grownups".

And you say that even when the videos and media reports report time and again that your hopes that there are grownups at Uber are unfounded.

Brive1987
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6830

Post by Brive1987 »

South Africa.

The only way they can offset the falling living standards since 1994 is to include beggars as part of the economic juggernaut.

:) :lol:
For example, South Africans routinely talk about a stubborn unemployment rate of 25 percent or higher to make the point the country is not creating nearly enough jobs.

Yet some economists argue that this traditional measure of employment only counts formal jobs and vastly underestimates those in the informal economy, from street hawkers to part-time gardeners to guys who watch over parked cars to make sure they don't get stolen.

When you factor in the informal economy, the picture changes dramatically, these economists argue.
https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/ ... e-we-doing

Steersman
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6831

Post by Steersman »

Keating wrote: Possibly of interest to the Kirb/Brive discussion and for Steersman to copy and paste for a while,

https:// m.youtube.com/watch?v=xQcSvBsU-FM
Thanks - I'll be sure do so every chance I get, here and on Twitter. As for "What British Muslims Really Think", while I haven't watched all of the video yet - transcripts better than watching, kind of think that what many "British Muslims really think" is likely to be pretty much what Nawaz suggested, as described in an old post of Jerry Coyne's:
What bothers Maajid most, though, is the reaction of his fellow British Muslims, including those of his own sect, to Quadri’s “martrydom”. And here I’ll quote Nawaz himself:
Even in the U.K., the reaction has been difficult to comprehend.

Previously, a quarter of my fellow British Muslims have expressed sympathy with the terrorists who attacked the Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris. And now, certain Muslim religious and community “leaders,” who position themselves as anti-ISIS and “mainstream,” have come out publicly praising Qadri as a hero.
<snip>
What makes the positions of all of these “community leaders” so hurtful is that they hail from the relatively moderate, Barelwi strand of Sufi Pakistani Islam
Nawaz goes on to beg his coreligionists to rethink their stand on blasphemy, to show love instead of hate—even to “come and talk to our senior theologians at my organisation Qulliam,” a think tank dedicated to opposing religious extremism.
Close the borders; deport the effen lot - Mecca, nukes, orbit, etc.

Guest_d2e60302

Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6832

Post by Guest_d2e60302 »

https://www.theverge.com/2018/3/20/1714 ... wski-waymo
Uber’s former head of self-driving cars put safety second

Evidence previously surfaced in the Waymo v. Uber trial told of Anthony Levandowski’s ambivalence towards car safety
By Sarah Jeong

“We don’t need redundant brakes & steering, or a fancy new car, we need better software,” then-Google engineer Anthony Levandowski wrote in an email to Larry Page in January 2016. “To get to that better software faster we should deploy the first 1000 cars asap. I don’t understand why we are not doing that. Part of our team seems to be afraid to ship.” Shortly thereafter, Levandowski would leave to found his own self-driving trucking company, which was quickly acquired by Uber.

Anthony Levandowski wasn’t the only Uber employee who took the “move fast and break things” attitude to an alarming place, but many of his comments are now a matter of public record thanks to Waymo v. Uber, the lawsuit filed against the ride-sharing company for Levandowski’s alleged theft of 14,000 documents and the misappropriation of Google trade secrets. Uber fired Levandowski in 2017 and settled the lawsuit in February 2018. Uber has a new CEO who appears to be sincere in his desire to transform the corporate culture created by Travis Kalanick. But the company may be haunted by Levandowski’s legacy for some time, especially in the wake of the self-driving car accident in Tempe, Arizona that left a pedestrian dead

During the trial in February, lawyers for Waymo — the rebranded Google self-driving car project — painted a picture of a problem employee who clashed with his new boss over his slower, more cautious approach to self-driving cars. Waymo CEO John Krafcik said that Levandowski had vehemently held that redundant systems for steering and braking were unnecessary. “I think it’s fair to say we had different points of view on safety,” said Krafcik in court.

New York Magazine once attributed Levandowski as saying, “I’m pissed we didn’t have the first death,” to a group of Uber engineers after a driver died in a Tesla on autopilot in 2016. (Levandowski has denied ever saying it).

“The team is not moving fast enough due to a combination of risk aversion and lack of urgency, we need to move faster,” Levandowski told Page in another communication that was shown during the Waymo trial.

His messages to Travis Kalanick were more casual. “We need to think through the strategy, to take all the shortcuts we can find,” he said in one text message. And in another, “I just see this as a race and we need to win, second place is first looser [sic].”

Kalanick was similarly breezy. “Burn the village,” he texted Levandowski at one point.

“Yup,” Levandowski replied, within seconds.

In court, Kalanick said he did not remember what that exchange referred to. Whatever these communications were — jokes, off-color remarks, effusive babble — they don’t look good in the context of Levandowski’s views on safety and even worse after Tempe, Arizona.

A spokesperson for Uber distanced the current company from Levandowski, pointing to the changes in both leadership and personnel. “We believe that technology has the power to make transportation safer than ever before and recognize our deep responsibility to keep people safe,” he said in an email. “Uber’s new leadership has made it clear to the entire company that safety has to be at the core of what we do. That’s how we operate at Uber today.”
That's not typical for pacemaker companies, I'd like to make that point.

ThreeFlangedJavis
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6833

Post by ThreeFlangedJavis »

Shatterface wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:06 pm
free thoughtpolice wrote: ThreeFlangedJavis wrote:
. South African whites can indeed have a hard time adjusting to life overseas.
White South Africans are as African as Rachel Dolezal. It's a European colony. Changing their pronouns to yena won't make them Xhosa. There's no way to defend both ethnonationalism and the rights of white South Africans.
The South Africans immigrants that have moved here (western Canada) seem to have adapted pretty well. Most I know of have been medical or other professionals so results may vary for the more blue collar crowd that may have moved here.
White South Africans are an ethnic group. Their roots in Africa go back hundreds of years and the Afrikaaner way of life has been very distinct from European life for most of that time. The Bantu were as absent from most of the Cape as Europeans before the European settlers arrived. The original inhabitants were Khoisan, whom the Bantu displaced from large parts of the country themselves relatively shortly before the arrival of Europeans. The cities and infrastructure of the country were developed by whites and now form the backbone of modern black South African life. South African Indians and Malays are similarly distinct South African ethnic groups, both of which have had a role in shaping the country. If you were an ethnonationalist you certainly could make a consistent argument for a white ethnostate within South Africa.

Steersman
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6834

Post by Steersman »

Lsuoma wrote: Steersman may not be a nigger, but s/h/it is a cunt.

In the early days of the Pit, I called s/h/it Steerzo, and s/h/it called me Lymphoma.

Well, I now have lymphoma. Found out today. Steerzo is a cunt.

And probably a nigger too.
LoL. We "niggers" are masters of voodoo, of sympathetic magic - I *needled* you with a disease and you caught it.

But sorry to hear about that Chief; if you think it will help then I'll take the needle out of the doll - unLymphoma!, shazam! - and that should cure you; that will be $50 - pay the receptionist on the way out .... ;-)

feathers
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6835

Post by feathers »

Brive1987 wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:51 pm
South Africa.

The only way they can offset the falling living standards since 1994 is to include beggars as part of the economic juggernaut.

:) :lol:
For example, South Africans routinely talk about a stubborn unemployment rate of 25 percent or higher to make the point the country is not creating nearly enough jobs.

Yet some economists argue that this traditional measure of employment only counts formal jobs and vastly underestimates those in the informal economy, from street hawkers to part-time gardeners to guys who watch over parked cars to make sure they don't get stolen.

When you factor in the informal economy, the picture changes dramatically, these economists argue.
https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/ ... e-we-doing
Are organised gangs also seen as employment opportunities in this new post-modern Economics?

Steersman
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6836

Post by Steersman »

Kirbmarc wrote:
Lsuoma wrote: Steerzo is still a cunt.
Correct. ...
LoL. If it makes you feel any better, I promise to deport your parents last - or at least give them a chance to piss on the Quran first ... ;-)

But, in passing, since you said earlier, "I admit that I probably don't know enough about France. I'm open to changing my mind in face of new evidence", you might wish to take a gander at this recent post:
France: Free Speech on Trial - Again
...

On March 2, French prosecutors decided that Marine Le Pen should be prosecuted for drawing attention on Twitter to the atrocities committed by Islamic State. They apparently decided that Le Pen's message, even if factually correct, should not be heard.

Le Pen's "crime," the prosecutors allege, is that in a series of tweets, she posted disturbing images of victims of Islamic State, thereby exposing the crimes against humanity that group have been committing in the Levant. ...
Many others there in the same vein - studious refusal on the part of French society, large portions at least, to admit the problems entailed by Islam.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6837

Post by MarcusAu »

jugheadnaut wrote:
Guest_d2e60302 wrote:

I doubt the car ist using this camera to drive with, this camera is for forensic post mortem [no pun intended] analysis. It is there to show to the devs sort of what the car should have been seeing when it drove off the pier, and probably mostly there the same reason there are voice recorders. So the FAA and NHTSA can blame the pilot.
I'm sure that camera wasn't actually used as part of the self-driving functionality of the car. But the whole purpose of this pilot is to gather data, so if (and it's still a big if) they're using an el cheapo camera, it points to a serious lack of rigor in their test design.
Pilot aka cow catcher. And it's not data that they gather.

Just goes to show you rather than reinventing the wheel - they could just re-purpose existing technology.

On the other hand, maybe there is something I am missing here.

Brive1987
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6838

Post by Brive1987 »

ThreeFlangedJavis wrote:
Shatterface wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:06 pm
free thoughtpolice wrote: ThreeFlangedJavis wrote:
. South African whites can indeed have a hard time adjusting to life overseas.
White South Africans are as African as Rachel Dolezal. It's a European colony. Changing their pronouns to yena won't make them Xhosa. There's no way to defend both ethnonationalism and the rights of white South Africans.
The South Africans immigrants that have moved here (western Canada) seem to have adapted pretty well. Most I know of have been medical or other professionals so results may vary for the more blue collar crowd that may have moved here.
White South Africans are an ethnic group. Their roots in Africa go back hundreds of years and the Afrikaaner way of life has been very distinct from European life for most of that time. The Bantu were as absent from most of the Cape as Europeans before the European settlers arrived. The original inhabitants were Khoisan, whom the Bantu displaced from large parts of the country themselves relatively shortly before the arrival of Europeans. The cities and infrastructure of the country were developed by whites and now form the backbone of modern black South African life. South African Indians and Malays are similarly distinct South African ethnic groups, both of which have had a role in shaping the country. If you were an ethnonationalist you certainly could make a consistent argument for a white ethnostate within South Africa.
Please stop adding the nuance of actual experience. You are clouding essential truths with your racist drum beats.

MarcusAu
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6839

Post by MarcusAu »

Keating wrote: Possibly of interest to the Kirb/Brive discussion and for Steersman to copy and paste for a while,

<YouTube vid snipped>
'Not Available in Your Country' - but the hooktube version works for me:

https://hooktube.com/watch?v=xQcSvBsU-FM

MarcusAu
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Location: Llareggub

Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

#6840

Post by MarcusAu »

Brive1987 wrote:
Please stop adding the nuance of actual experience. You are clouding essential truths with your racist drum beats.
Quite right - he's starting to sound like a Boer on the subject.

Locked