There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

[free thoughtpolice]

A bit of a glitch happening here. I got an internal server error when I posted last (it posted though), there is a not secure in the address box, and when I logged back in it read that Shatterface had posted the last message although mine and one from John D were already posted.

[John D]

OK, peeps, this HAS to be said: this place IS becoming a lot more like Stormfront than I'm personally comfortable with.

I'm not kidding around: I've realized that Aneris had been right all along, and there was a thought pipeline of far-right ideas and project in here, just like in the rest of the "skeptic" circles on Youtube and other platforms.

The reaction to the SocJus and its authoritarian excesses was, in the beginning, a large defection of many people with different ideas, different positions in the left-right spectrum, but who had the principles of liberal democracy (free speech, due process, presumption of innocence, openness of discussion, secularism, separation of church and state, etc.) as guiding values.

I'm starting to doubt that this is still the case, at least for many who post here. We've gone from "let's defend Enlightenment values" to "let's defend White Western Culture, which basically means Defending the White Race". Less and less people seem to care for equal standards, open, rational discussion, and solving issues, and more and more for an identitarian defense of an "essence" of the west, which in practice more often than not turns out to be race-based, at least in part.

The process has been fast but gradual. Just in early 2016 this board was still more in favor of Bernie Sanders than of Hillary Clinton, people were talking about how counter the reach of SocJus within the left, we were in talks with social justice activists like Michael Nugent to point out that PZ Myers' brand of "intersectional atheism" was poisonous to civil discussion of secular/atheist issues.

Sure, we always had the Steersbot and its rants about nuking Mecca and Qu'ran piss tests, but most people seemed to see him as an extreme manifestation of tolerance for free speech, as an annoying idiot, an outlier.

Sure, the SocJus fans at FTB called us Nazis and white supremacists, but we all scoffed at them as over-reactive idiots, which, by the way, they were. At that time a characterization of the SlymePit as a haven for far-right thought would have been extremely unfair. We laughed at those who called us Nazis, even ironically pretended to be Nazis, but no one here was even remotely close to Nazism or ethno-nationalism or whatnot.

The SocJus quickly became the Boys who Cry Nazi, accusing each and everyone of being a Nazi, so much so that the word "Nazi" started to lose any meaningful connotation.

Then something happened. I'm not sure exactly of what it was, but I think that by and large it had to do with the 2016 election. During the primaries many were endorsing Sanders, seeing him as (potentially) a source for change from the Clintonite corporate left, which was very SocJus-friendly. And indeed at first it seemed like Sanders was going to criticize some SocJus ideas, like no platforming and ethnic quotas in politics, but he was immediately shouted down as "sympathetic to white nationalism" (which was insane) and he quickly folded into the program.

The anti-identitarian left which many were hoping for never became anything concrete. Instead we got Clinton vs. Trump, and people pissed off by the SocJus started to sympathize with Trump, despite the fact that Trump was (and is) a supporter of woo like anti-vaxxing, or anti-climate change, or pandering to ethno-nationalism in terms of immigration (the Wall, the Muslim Ban).

People started not just to point out that Clinton had ties to SocJus leaders, and that Trump had been portrayed as even worse than he was, but to ironically support Trump and his nativist-friendly policies.

But the irony was short-lived: even though many in the anti-SocJus left were also prominent critics of Trump, from Harris to Pinker to Coyne, they were also tarred as "alt-right"/"white supremacists" and rejected by the leftist American cultural elite, which left people who wished for a reformation of the left leaderless, disorganized, frustrated, while the SocJus left doubled down by assuming the mantle of the Only Legitimate Resistance to TrumpHitler the Leader of White Privilege.

Some people simply stopped caring, others said "well, if Trump pisses off the SocJus so much, maybe he or some of his ideas aren't so bad". There was a lot of criticism of specific stupid ideas of Trump's, but even though actual neo-nazis popped up, there was less room for criticism of the drift towards the far-right of nativist/anti-immigration ideas, many of which were becoming mainstream.

Anti-Trump SocJus accused so many people of being Nazi/White Supremacists that (from Jerry Coyne to Steven Pinker), like in the story of the Boy Who Cried Wolf, we started to be bored and ignore the actual Nazi-like trends going on. Antifa started to attack people from James Damore to Christina Hoff Sommers, acting as the Boys who Want to Hit Nazis, further muddling the waters, and leading people to reflexively reject not only the false or inaccurate accusations of nazism, but some more serious criticism of real creeping ethno-nationalism.

One of one many of the figures which were highly critical of Trump and of the drift to the right left the board. Welch, Strawkins, Skep Tickle, Jan Steen, James Caruthers, Pitchguest, all people who commented here a lot and helped to shape this place, all left, some with a whimper, others with a bang.

Aneris was the first to openly pose the question of how far to the right was the "Skeptic Movement", which included the Pit, going. There was a defensive reaction of which I was a part of, because we thought that while we were giving all sides an equal representation we hadn't accepted far-right ideas as mainstream. But maybe it was just that the changes had been too subtle for people to notice. Also at that point people were accepting Sargon's "classical liberal" position as mainstream, not Richard Spencer's "white ethno-state".

Things have still changed in the next months. People, from Brive to Keating to Vicky Caramel to gurugeorge to even Lsuoma, started to accept far-right thinkers and far-right thoughts as the new center, the new mainstream, the new normal. Videos from Brittany "Pizzagate Gal" Pettibone, or Black Pigeon Speaks, or Lauren Southern, or Faith Goldy, were passed around freely, their ideas assumed to be simply part of the tapestry of criticism of the SocJus.

Far right ideas like "replacement through immigration" or "ethno-states" were left unchallenged, traditionalist like Peterson were considered basically centrist, the Overton window shifted massively to the right. Sure, there were reactions against Vicky and gurugeorge for their peddling of Holocaust denial, but the core idea that the West is so massively under threat that the only reaction is to embrace ethno-nationalism seems to be more or less part of the DNA of this website.

Now by means of course I don't mean that each and every member of this website has shifted to the right. We still have people like free thoughtpolice or CaptainFluffyBunny who are centrist liberals and critics of Trump, and others like Old_Ones, Sunder, DrokkIt, (occasionally) Karmakin and me who are on the side of the reformation of the left according to Enlightenment, anti po-mo ideas.

But in general the idea that the Western Civilization is not only in need of reformation and maintenance, but under mortal threat from a combination of the Post-Modern left and immigration, has been making roads into the Pit, just like into the Skeptic Community in general.

Even Lsuoma seem convinced that Lauren Southern being banned from the UK is a sure sign that some kind of theocratic islamic state of Great Britain is on the horizon, and so ethno-nationalism might be the only way out. There ARE problems in the UK about criticism of islam, but surely one can't simply embrace the far-right instead of trying to fix things to support liberal democratic values and secularism. There are still plenty of non-far-right secularists around when it comes to Christianity, the trick is to focus less on race and more on religion to make people realize that islam is a religious, not ethnic issue.

I'm not saying that the people who have fallen for a false dichotomy between the SocJus/Regressives don't have their reasons. It's objectively hard to fight to reform things when no reforms seem in sight. But surely to fail into hopelessness and embrace the far-right alternative is a sign of weakness, of letting the mainstream thought to be dominated by Regressives on one side and ethno-fascists on the other.

Pinker, Harris, Dawkins, Coyne and ex or liberal muslims (from Nawaz to Rizvi) are still there. The core of reason and liberal democracy is still there. There's still hope of defending liberal democratic values without tying them to ethnicity and race, to reject the muslim theocrats on a secularist, not "traditionalist" basis. There are some people here who still think this and criticize both the SocJus and the Trumpian right, or ethno-nationalism.

But the risk of drifting into far-right, ethnocentric, "white nationalist" ideas is real. Brive here writes that "borders and traditions" in practice is the same as "defending a future for white children". This wouldn't have been considered normal even on the Pit just a couple of years ago.

Is the drift carrying on? Are we condemned to turn this place into the secular version of Stormfront? I don't think so, I don't think this is inevitable, but surely we have to be aware of what happened, realize how far have the boundaries been pushed.

Otherwise the pipes for Nazism have not only being laid in, but are about to become fully operational.

Lighten up, Francis.

When I joined the pit years ago yall called me a racist. I haven't changed.

[Matt Cavanaugh]

Once a video has been posted where it be of Robinson or Southern or anyone else, that video is there for all to criticise is it not? I don't see how the poster posting the video has to post it critically.

I just as much put stuff on here to gain a reaction, critical or otherwise as I do for the LOL's .. We all have our own biases do we not, our own politics, the good thing I've found on here is that with a few exceptions (Aneris & Vicky) most pitters are fairly respectful of others opinions.

Criticizing a gif of Jenneke should be a bannable offense, though.

[John D]

Britain looks to be totally fucked. Really.

From my view in the US, most of our crime is caused by a racial minority that has developed its own sub-culture. In the US this was largely created by whites, the history of slavery, the history of Jim Crow, and now the welfare state. The US government created this problem. It is so bad we can't even seem to hold black culture responsible for this without sounding racist. So, we end up with BLM and all other kinds of bullshit that will not help. For some reason crime seems to be declining, but few even understand the reason why.

Now, the UK looks to be creating the same mess. A racial minority with a violent sub-culture. STOP! Trust me. You are not going to like it. Is the US going to end up becoming the safer place to live? Maybe.

[Shatterface]

America has problems that extend far further back than the welfare state. Almost every famous American pre-WWII was an outlaw or a gangster.

[John D]

America has problems that extend far further back than the welfare state. Almost every famous American pre-WWII was an outlaw or a gangster.

Haha. Okay... if you say so. My main point is that the UK is creating a violent racial sub-culture.... but to address your comment.... people like Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, Madison, Hamilton, Lincoln.... come to mind. But maybe you are just joking... I can't tell.

[shoutinghorse]

Now, the UK looks to be creating the same mess. A racial minority with a violent sub-culture. STOP! Trust me. You are not going to like it. Is the US going to end up becoming the safer place to live? Maybe.

New York already is mate. (that's if London can still be called the UK) :think:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/1 ... s-suggest/

[John D]

Now, the UK looks to be creating the same mess. A racial minority with a violent sub-culture. STOP! Trust me. You are not going to like it. Is the US going to end up becoming the safer place to live? Maybe.

New York already is mate. (that's if London can still be called the UK) :think:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/1 ... s-suggest/

Wow... shit. I didn't know this has already happened. My wife and I went to NYC in the 1980s and it was a total shit-hole. I was screamed at by drunks just walking down Broadway in the middle of the day. Horrible. Now.... it is one of my favorite travel destinations.

Rudy Juliani probably saved more black lives than any Democrat in the last 30 years.

I don't understand why people are so fucking stupid.

[Matt Cavanaugh]

For one thing, NYC doesn't have any no-go zones.

[free thoughtpolice]

John D wrote:

When I joined the pit years ago yall called me a racist. I haven't changed.

I don't remember a pit member called yall. It's disappointing to hear you're still a racist though. :P

[MarcusAu]

Just a quick post to display a picture from one of my favourite English cartoonists.

We may not see his (or Englands) like again...

Thelwell-2.jpg

(98.12 KiB) Downloaded 224 times

[BoxNDox]

She'll be her own undoing first. She's already insulted the boyfriend's boss for no discernable reason.

He has a green card. She'll probably do some idiot thing to jeopardize it.

https://imgur.com/3EYrvtu.png

...and he may very well be right.

With a base salary of $1,000,000, $1,790,000 in bonuses and incentives, and $20,000,083 in stock, Cue earned over $22.8 million in total compensation during the 2016 fiscal year for his leadership and performance. -- Wikipedia

A lot of women find that sort of thing VERY attractive indeed.

[Shatterface]

Rudy Juliani probably saved more black lives than any Democrat in the last 30 years.

He didn't do it by making New York a white ethnostate though. It's one of the most ethnically diverse cities in the world.

So if New York can change from one of the most violent cities in the world to one of the most law abiding without mass deportations or a white people breeding programme why is ethnonationalism given credence on the Pit?

[SM1957]

Rudy Juliani probably saved more black lives than any Democrat in the last 30 years.

He didn't do it by making New York a white ethnostate though. It's one of the most ethnically diverse cities in the world.

So if New York can change from one of the most violent cities in the world to one of the most law abiding without mass deportations or a white people breeding programme why is ethnonationalism given credence on the Pit?

I don't know much about America. Why is New York good at reducing crime while Chicago isn't?

[Service Dog]

https://i.imgur.com/hqYwefb.jpg

After years of confounding bureaucracy, I am officially documented, again.

The slogan on the accompanying brochure reminds me of a great American dreamer.

[Service Dog]

Wow... shit. I didn't know this has already happened. My wife and I went to NYC in the 1980s and it was a total shit-hole. I was screamed at by drunks just walking down Broadway in the middle of the day. Horrible. Now.... it is one of my favorite travel destinations.
[/quote]

I'm reading this on St. Patricks Day. NYC is a drunken shithole today. Puke on the sidewalk everywhere, before 11 a.m. Fucking white ethno-holiday.

[rayshul]

On Kirbmarc... Some points in no particular order.

I considered myself leftwing before Elevatorgate and the realisation that actually, my views of equality were very different from the psycho shit the left was *actually* peddling. Something I should have known from 10 years of watching SJWs invade communities previously... but still, that was the tipping point.

I live in a left wing pit, my internet presence is largely surrounded by them, I can't escape without more fucking diversity shit. I fight battles every fucking day online and IRL to shut down anti-white stuff literally everywhere and it's honestly exhausting. I can't imagine what it's like to be the recipient of such constant hate or discrimination. It genuinely blows my fucking mind how this activity is acceptable. It has limited my ability to be creative in communities or to take part in group places because of what I am and am not permitted to do.

People called me Hitler on Facebook so many times I set up a new online persona espousing my views (to an extent I'm not comfortable doing in other forums) and have since met many Nazis and right identitarians who I discover are less objectionable than my interactions with SJWs. There's something fascinating about this. I don't feel at any danger with Nazis of being stalked or attacked and disagreement is not at the same insane level as the left, where they immediately try to find out where you live and begin to shame you or make sadistic, graphic sexual comments. Meanwhile, the leftist stalking is some next level shit. I've never been treated poorly online as being black or female until the left lost their fuhhhhking shit.

PC shit is fucking countries wholesale. It's resulting in insane sexism, racism, and violence that oppresses women in particular. Islam is fucking toxic. At this point I'm down with anyone who is not PC on the identarian right, because their treatment exposes the double standard. Identity politics is what the pit has largely been against. I see traditional values and the like being a Western construct and do not have a racial basis in their application. Also, even the hardline traditional values of women in the kitchen are far better than the Islamic values of women as chattel. And the reality is that the traditional values of women in the kitchen are far more loosely applied than the Islamic ones which are going on in Western societies and fufhfhfhfhfhfkkk.

You'll see that the people from the right these days seem very open to engaging with people of all different creeds (and all with different view points). Sure, you get catfights like Blair vs Candace, but they both were willing to engage with each other. That's cool. I like that. I like watching people argue with different views. I have noticed that as I have become more rightwing, the quality of people I get to engage with rises significantly, and the quality of people who wish to work or collaborate with me has also risen.

As you said, Bernie fucking folded like a bitch. If he hadn't, we'd still be advocating for him. What you need right now is people who don't fold. That's the only way to fight back against the culture wars. I was 100% on board the Bernie train until he caved to BLM, and while I've liked Trump for a while for general historic things, I found some of his views (vaccinations, etc) totally nuts... until his speech on protecting gay people in Texas, which remains one of the most impressive political things I've ever seen in my life.

[rayshul]

Ultimately I care about

1. freedom of speech
2. equality of opportunity
3. islam gon fuck you up

I was pro (smart) migration until the refugee shinnanegans fucked Europe

[ConcentratedH2O, OM]

Rudy Juliani probably saved more black lives than any Democrat in the last 30 years.

He didn't do it by making New York a white ethnostate though. It's one of the most ethnically diverse cities in the world.

So if New York can change from one of the most violent cities in the world to one of the most law abiding without mass deportations or a white people breeding programme why is ethnonationalism given credence on the Pit?

I don't know much about America. Why is New York good at reducing crime while Chicago isn't?

As explained: a leader with the intention, ideas, resolve, policies, and funds to get the job done.

[Brive1987]

Yes to the first clause, but I have NO idea how you get to the conclusion from what I said.

I lived in the UK for forty years, and I know how it operates. Hint - it's not like the rest of Europe, especially Switzerland.

As it turns out, I do support the idea of immigration controls, and taking drastic and immediate action against, e.g., rape gangs and people inciting violence. Go in mob-handed with SPG-type tactics. Gradualism and sensitivity won't work here. But use the legitimate state violence without fear or favor against the groups committing the crimes objectively, don't make up imaginary shit to stop hurt fee-fees.

Thing is that the Southern/Pettibone crowd are definitely pushing for a racialization of the problem of immigration. There's a line between legitimate restoration of law and order and actions against widespread cultural messages against integration and for theocracy, and blurring the lines between curbing islamic regressivism and giving support to the "white race is in danger of extinction" types.

Kirb. You said -

One of one many of the figures which were highly critical of Trump and of the drift to the right left the board. Welch, Strawkins, Skep Tickle, Jan Steen, James Caruthers, Pitchguest, all people who commented here a lot and helped to shape this place, all left, some with a whimper, others with a bang.

.......

Things have still changed in the next months. People, from Brive to Keating to Vicky Caramel to gurugeorge to even Lsuoma, started to accept far-right thinkers and far-right thoughts as the new center, the new mainstream, the new normal. Videos from Brittany "Pizzagate Gal" Pettibone, or Black Pigeon Speaks, or Lauren Southern, or Faith Goldy, were passed around freely, their ideas assumed to be simply part of the tapestry of criticism of the SocJus.

......

But the risk of drifting into far-right, ethnocentric, "white nationalist" ideas is real. Brive here writes that "borders and traditions" in practice is the same as "defending a future for white children". This wouldn't have been considered normal even on the Pit just a couple of years ago.

.......

Kirb.

1. The people you mentioned aren’t fleeing from your perceived pit-drift-to-the-right. Skep stopped being active almost as soon as she went red after the Sargon thing. A step back for her was probably IRL sensible. Welch and Caruthers went down as white knights (over Anita and SciBabe), Strawkins lost interest once FtB died and was largely off radar pre Sargon. Jan was lost in Nice, PBOH. Pitchguest had issues with his father so who knows. Yeti was fairly pro Trump ... There is no common thread. I get it that you’d like them as potential allies but their leaving doesn’t support your pipe argument.

2. The second quoted paragraph shows your problem. You assign simple labels and conclusions to a discussion in flux. You are a clever guy. But, ahh, let’s say, umm, - you take things very seriously and literally. It’s a flaw you should be aware of. This place often operates on levels on humour, nuance and layers of nuance. It is also a place where ideas can be kicked around, challenged, refined, debunked. It’s not pipe laying.

3. The third paragraph highlights this issue. Let’s take your example apart a bit. You had provided a difficult to follow personal ideological discourse on Peterson, “narratives”, (social?) evolution and the need to discard outmoded thought patterns as the world quickly grew more complex. There was your usual implicit concern over what could be perceived as ‘traditional’ views.

In this you were (re)laying your own pipes. As you do.

Now I could have simply ignored your word block and gone straight to the next funny gif. But I didn’t. I could have questioned your pitch by mocking what I saw as a complex and imprecise word salad. But I didn’t. I teased it apart and extracted what I thought was your salient point.

And challenged your POV in as few words as possible. More expansively - as the world becomes more complex, base-humans will want simple scaffolds of meaning to define their organisational self identity. Your liberal high-values based approach wilts compared to what people find actual meaning in: a group-nation defined by fixed borders. Common means of expression within the group. Common bonds of history, visual identity and culture. I noted the irony that these principles often operate within a racial milieu (think, oh Japan/China if the Horst-Wessel-Lied starts playing in your mind). But I pointed out this racial thing should not be the active driver. It is a natural offshoot, a deliverable.

Now I get it. You see a fluid world where modern processes mix and match and swirl and eddy peoples into a stew. A world where goodness is defined through the application of objectively ‘true’, universal humanistic values.

And, charming as this it, I reject it.

I don’t see the base premise in successful operation. Anywhere. The only peoples laying down their group identities are the western nations. Multiculturalism is driven by this one-sided left-liberal altruism and a desire for population based GDP growth. This policy is altering the demographic mix - label that as you will. I see immigrant groups quite rightly holding onto their culture in silos. I see one particular (introduced) group looking to virulently expand their world view into the cultural void left in the post-nation state. I see this same group waging active war on the host nation. And now I see the powers that be, in opposition to public opinion, defend their failing policies via the very totalitarianism which your worldview sets out to avoid.

Quite the mess.

Kirb, your left-lib soul mates aren’t identifying these issues. You are not pushing back against Luton and grooming. They are not confronting the NGO facilitated drive for open borders in the Mediterranean. You mob aren’t articulating an end state and KPIs for your own ideological experiment or how a million non-aligned economic refugees constitute success. They are however rolling on and knocking down collectives (like Poland) that deviate.

Robinson, Goldy, Southern, hell even Trump, are intensely interesting because they are engaging in a way your ‘team’ isn’t. They see the silent issues, even if they are off in explaining the dynamics causing them. Even if they are imprecise in how to solve the problem.

But to close the circle. The pit, in part, is responding the same forces that caused brexit, Trump, the migrant crisis, the uptick in terrorism, the loss of free speech. I guess it’s just that complex changing world you talk of.

But to label this support for an alt right, Nazi ethnostate mandate is beneath you.

[CaptainFluffyBunny]

OK, peeps, this HAS to be said: this place IS becoming a lot more like Stormfront than I'm personally comfortable with.

I'm not kidding around: I've realized that Aneris had been right all along, and there was a thought pipeline of far-right ideas and project in here, just like in the rest of the "skeptic" circles on Youtube and other platforms.

The reaction to the SocJus and its authoritarian excesses was, in the beginning, a large defection of many people with different ideas, different positions in the left-right spectrum, but who had the principles of liberal democracy (free speech, due process, presumption of innocence, openness of discussion, secularism, separation of church and state, etc.) as guiding values.

I'm starting to doubt that this is still the case, at least for many who post here. We've gone from "let's defend Enlightenment values" to "let's defend White Western Culture, which basically means Defending the White Race". Less and less people seem to care for equal standards, open, rational discussion, and solving issues, and more and more for an identitarian defense of an "essence" of the west, which in practice more often than not turns out to be race-based, at least in part.

The process has been fast but gradual. Just in early 2016 this board was still more in favor of Bernie Sanders than of Hillary Clinton, people were talking about how counter the reach of SocJus within the left, we were in talks with social justice activists like Michael Nugent to point out that PZ Myers' brand of "intersectional atheism" was poisonous to civil discussion of secular/atheist issues.

Sure, we always had the Steersbot and its rants about nuking Mecca and Qu'ran piss tests, but most people seemed to see him as an extreme manifestation of tolerance for free speech, as an annoying idiot, an outlier.

Sure, the SocJus fans at FTB called us Nazis and white supremacists, but we all scoffed at them as over-reactive idiots, which, by the way, they were. At that time a characterization of the SlymePit as a haven for far-right thought would have been extremely unfair. We laughed at those who called us Nazis, even ironically pretended to be Nazis, but no one here was even remotely close to Nazism or ethno-nationalism or whatnot.

The SocJus quickly became the Boys who Cry Nazi, accusing each and everyone of being a Nazi, so much so that the word "Nazi" started to lose any meaningful connotation.

Then something happened. I'm not sure exactly of what it was, but I think that by and large it had to do with the 2016 election. During the primaries many were endorsing Sanders, seeing him as (potentially) a source for change from the Clintonite corporate left, which was very SocJus-friendly. And indeed at first it seemed like Sanders was going to criticize some SocJus ideas, like no platforming and ethnic quotas in politics, but he was immediately shouted down as "sympathetic to white nationalism" (which was insane) and he quickly folded into the program.

The anti-identitarian left which many were hoping for never became anything concrete. Instead we got Clinton vs. Trump, and people pissed off by the SocJus started to sympathize with Trump, despite the fact that Trump was (and is) a supporter of woo like anti-vaxxing, or anti-climate change, or pandering to ethno-nationalism in terms of immigration (the Wall, the Muslim Ban).

People started not just to point out that Clinton had ties to SocJus leaders, and that Trump had been portrayed as even worse than he was, but to ironically support Trump and his nativist-friendly policies.

But the irony was short-lived: even though many in the anti-SocJus left were also prominent critics of Trump, from Harris to Pinker to Coyne, they were also tarred as "alt-right"/"white supremacists" and rejected by the leftist American cultural elite, which left people who wished for a reformation of the left leaderless, disorganized, frustrated, while the SocJus left doubled down by assuming the mantle of the Only Legitimate Resistance to TrumpHitler the Leader of White Privilege.

Some people simply stopped caring, others said "well, if Trump pisses off the SocJus so much, maybe he or some of his ideas aren't so bad". There was a lot of criticism of specific stupid ideas of Trump's, but even though actual neo-nazis popped up, there was less room for criticism of the drift towards the far-right of nativist/anti-immigration ideas, many of which were becoming mainstream.

Anti-Trump SocJus accused so many people of being Nazi/White Supremacists that (from Jerry Coyne to Steven Pinker), like in the story of the Boy Who Cried Wolf, we started to be bored and ignore the actual Nazi-like trends going on. Antifa started to attack people from James Damore to Christina Hoff Sommers, acting as the Boys who Want to Hit Nazis, further muddling the waters, and leading people to reflexively reject not only the false or inaccurate accusations of nazism, but some more serious criticism of real creeping ethno-nationalism.

One of one many of the figures which were highly critical of Trump and of the drift to the right left the board. Welch, Strawkins, Skep Tickle, Jan Steen, James Caruthers, Pitchguest, all people who commented here a lot and helped to shape this place, all left, some with a whimper, others with a bang.

Aneris was the first to openly pose the question of how far to the right was the "Skeptic Movement", which included the Pit, going. There was a defensive reaction of which I was a part of, because we thought that while we were giving all sides an equal representation we hadn't accepted far-right ideas as mainstream. But maybe it was just that the changes had been too subtle for people to notice. Also at that point people were accepting Sargon's "classical liberal" position as mainstream, not Richard Spencer's "white ethno-state".

Things have still changed in the next months. People, from Brive to Keating to Vicky Caramel to gurugeorge to even Lsuoma, started to accept far-right thinkers and far-right thoughts as the new center, the new mainstream, the new normal. Videos from Brittany "Pizzagate Gal" Pettibone, or Black Pigeon Speaks, or Lauren Southern, or Faith Goldy, were passed around freely, their ideas assumed to be simply part of the tapestry of criticism of the SocJus.

Far right ideas like "replacement through immigration" or "ethno-states" were left unchallenged, traditionalist like Peterson were considered basically centrist, the Overton window shifted massively to the right. Sure, there were reactions against Vicky and gurugeorge for their peddling of Holocaust denial, but the core idea that the West is so massively under threat that the only reaction is to embrace ethno-nationalism seems to be more or less part of the DNA of this website.

Now by means of course I don't mean that each and every member of this website has shifted to the right. We still have people like free thoughtpolice or CaptainFluffyBunny who are centrist liberals and critics of Trump, and others like Old_Ones, Sunder, DrokkIt, (occasionally) Karmakin and me who are on the side of the reformation of the left according to Enlightenment, anti po-mo ideas.

But in general the idea that the Western Civilization is not only in need of reformation and maintenance, but under mortal threat from a combination of the Post-Modern left and immigration, has been making roads into the Pit, just like into the Skeptic Community in general.

Even Lsuoma seem convinced that Lauren Southern being banned from the UK is a sure sign that some kind of theocratic islamic state of Great Britain is on the horizon, and so ethno-nationalism might be the only way out. There ARE problems in the UK about criticism of islam, but surely one can't simply embrace the far-right instead of trying to fix things to support liberal democratic values and secularism. There are still plenty of non-far-right secularists around when it comes to Christianity, the trick is to focus less on race and more on religion to make people realize that islam is a religious, not ethnic issue.

I'm not saying that the people who have fallen for a false dichotomy between the SocJus/Regressives don't have their reasons. It's objectively hard to fight to reform things when no reforms seem in sight. But surely to fail into hopelessness and embrace the far-right alternative is a sign of weakness, of letting the mainstream thought to be dominated by Regressives on one side and ethno-fascists on the other.

Pinker, Harris, Dawkins, Coyne and ex or liberal muslims (from Nawaz to Rizvi) are still there. The core of reason and liberal democracy is still there. There's still hope of defending liberal democratic values without tying them to ethnicity and race, to reject the muslim theocrats on a secularist, not "traditionalist" basis. There are some people here who still think this and criticize both the SocJus and the Trumpian right, or ethno-nationalism.

But the risk of drifting into far-right, ethnocentric, "white nationalist" ideas is real. Brive here writes that "borders and traditions" in practice is the same as "defending a future for white children". This wouldn't have been considered normal even on the Pit just a couple of years ago.

Is the drift carrying on? Are we condemned to turn this place into the secular version of Stormfront? I don't think so, I don't think this is inevitable, but surely we have to be aware of what happened, realize how far have the boundaries been pushed.

Otherwise the pipes for Nazism have not only being laid in, but are about to become fully operational.

Think you're slightly overreacting. Nobody save Steers has gone full Nazi. Even then I think the term is both untrue And unhelpful. Rarely is it anything other than an insult. While I don't share his views art all, if Brive or others seem to be getting to be a little heated about culture, I can see their issues at least. Muslims are being praised while whites are being openly discriminated against. My daughter's humanities college classes are openly hostile to American Government and the amorphous idea of "white culture." They are openly hostile to the idea or enlightenment values. It is frankly frightening.

As to the board, either some people here would openly kill or deport members not of their race/culture or maybe they want higher standards of cultural assimilation for those that choose to immigrate to Western nations. I tend to think Brive and others tend towards the latter.

Or are these things new. Don't you recall that Caruthers regularly posted antisemitic cartoons, and it became difficult to tell if they were ironic because he spammed the board with them? Jan and most of the others left, it seemed to me, from the Trump supporters here, not from incipient Nazism, although they may certainly lump those things together.

Things probably look very different to me here in the PNW of America than they do to Brive in Australia or yourself in Switzerland. I am alarmed at some of the news coming out of the UK, but I don't know how much that reflects the reality of life there. I suspect Brive has some unique reasons for his seeming rightward shift. I dunno the reasons for Brive's support for cultural purity, and I've always suspected a bit of it is tongue-in-cheek. Especially in the way he attacked Vicky's holocaust denialism, he didn't strike me as a "final solution" kinda guy.

Aneris lumped Sargon in with Nazis, which was both not true and spectacularly unhelpful. There are real Nazi types out there, and lumping everybody to the right as potential Nazis ensures that you never understand their position and may push some of them even further to the right.

My 2cents.

[CaptainFluffyBunny]

John D wrote:

When I joined the pit years ago yall called me a racist. I haven't changed.

I don't remember a pit member called yall. It's disappointing to hear you're still a racist though. :P

If I recall, that was mostly just Welch, although he posted enough bullshit for four pitters. It was the argument that couldn't die, Treyvon fucking Martin. All speculation, no way to know the real answer, but people getting worked up as hell over it. Weirdness abounds when you emotionaly invest in speculative opinions.

[ConcentratedH2O, OM]

Meyers reveals yet another fetish:

https://i.imgur.com/EyhNfpl.png

[Phil_Giordana_FCD]

Maybe I'm a nazi. I invade Poland on a regular basis. Well, not Poland, per say, but a Pole. Although we're married, so I don't know if that counts.

I'm here for the fun, laughs, 'toshops, freedom of speech, and news from the SJW front. I just skip what doesn't interest me (Trump, Robinson, Peterson, etc...).

And Steers. I always skip Steers.

[KiwiInOz]

OK, peeps, this HAS to be said: this place IS becoming a lot more like Stormfront than I'm personally comfortable with.

I'm not kidding around: I've realized that Aneris had been right all along, and there was a thought pipeline of far-right ideas and project in here, just like in the rest of the "skeptic" circles on Youtube and other platforms.

The reaction to the SocJus and its authoritarian excesses was, in the beginning, a large defection of many people with different ideas, different positions in the left-right spectrum, but who had the principles of liberal democracy (free speech, due process, presumption of innocence, openness of discussion, secularism, separation of church and state, etc.) as guiding values.

I'm starting to doubt that this is still the case, at least for many who post here. We've gone from "let's defend Enlightenment values" to "let's defend White Western Culture, which basically means Defending the White Race". Less and less people seem to care for equal standards, open, rational discussion, and solving issues, and more and more for an identitarian defense of an "essence" of the west, which in practice more often than not turns out to be race-based, at least in part.

The process has been fast but gradual. Just in early 2016 this board was still more in favor of Bernie Sanders than of Hillary Clinton, people were talking about how counter the reach of SocJus within the left, we were in talks with social justice activists like Michael Nugent to point out that PZ Myers' brand of "intersectional atheism" was poisonous to civil discussion of secular/atheist issues.

Sure, we always had the Steersbot and its rants about nuking Mecca and Qu'ran piss tests, but most people seemed to see him as an extreme manifestation of tolerance for free speech, as an annoying idiot, an outlier.

Sure, the SocJus fans at FTB called us Nazis and white supremacists, but we all scoffed at them as over-reactive idiots, which, by the way, they were. At that time a characterization of the SlymePit as a haven for far-right thought would have been extremely unfair. We laughed at those who called us Nazis, even ironically pretended to be Nazis, but no one here was even remotely close to Nazism or ethno-nationalism or whatnot.

The SocJus quickly became the Boys who Cry Nazi, accusing each and everyone of being a Nazi, so much so that the word "Nazi" started to lose any meaningful connotation.

Then something happened. I'm not sure exactly of what it was, but I think that by and large it had to do with the 2016 election. During the primaries many were endorsing Sanders, seeing him as (potentially) a source for change from the Clintonite corporate left, which was very SocJus-friendly. And indeed at first it seemed like Sanders was going to criticize some SocJus ideas, like no platforming and ethnic quotas in politics, but he was immediately shouted down as "sympathetic to white nationalism" (which was insane) and he quickly folded into the program.

The anti-identitarian left which many were hoping for never became anything concrete. Instead we got Clinton vs. Trump, and people pissed off by the SocJus started to sympathize with Trump, despite the fact that Trump was (and is) a supporter of woo like anti-vaxxing, or anti-climate change, or pandering to ethno-nationalism in terms of immigration (the Wall, the Muslim Ban).

People started not just to point out that Clinton had ties to SocJus leaders, and that Trump had been portrayed as even worse than he was, but to ironically support Trump and his nativist-friendly policies.

But the irony was short-lived: even though many in the anti-SocJus left were also prominent critics of Trump, from Harris to Pinker to Coyne, they were also tarred as "alt-right"/"white supremacists" and rejected by the leftist American cultural elite, which left people who wished for a reformation of the left leaderless, disorganized, frustrated, while the SocJus left doubled down by assuming the mantle of the Only Legitimate Resistance to TrumpHitler the Leader of White Privilege.

Some people simply stopped caring, others said "well, if Trump pisses off the SocJus so much, maybe he or some of his ideas aren't so bad". There was a lot of criticism of specific stupid ideas of Trump's, but even though actual neo-nazis popped up, there was less room for criticism of the drift towards the far-right of nativist/anti-immigration ideas, many of which were becoming mainstream.

Anti-Trump SocJus accused so many people of being Nazi/White Supremacists that (from Jerry Coyne to Steven Pinker), like in the story of the Boy Who Cried Wolf, we started to be bored and ignore the actual Nazi-like trends going on. Antifa started to attack people from James Damore to Christina Hoff Sommers, acting as the Boys who Want to Hit Nazis, further muddling the waters, and leading people to reflexively reject not only the false or inaccurate accusations of nazism, but some more serious criticism of real creeping ethno-nationalism.

One of one many of the figures which were highly critical of Trump and of the drift to the right left the board. Welch, Strawkins, Skep Tickle, Jan Steen, James Caruthers, Pitchguest, all people who commented here a lot and helped to shape this place, all left, some with a whimper, others with a bang.

Aneris was the first to openly pose the question of how far to the right was the "Skeptic Movement", which included the Pit, going. There was a defensive reaction of which I was a part of, because we thought that while we were giving all sides an equal representation we hadn't accepted far-right ideas as mainstream. But maybe it was just that the changes had been too subtle for people to notice. Also at that point people were accepting Sargon's "classical liberal" position as mainstream, not Richard Spencer's "white ethno-state".

Things have still changed in the next months. People, from Brive to Keating to Vicky Caramel to gurugeorge to even Lsuoma, started to accept far-right thinkers and far-right thoughts as the new center, the new mainstream, the new normal. Videos from Brittany "Pizzagate Gal" Pettibone, or Black Pigeon Speaks, or Lauren Southern, or Faith Goldy, were passed around freely, their ideas assumed to be simply part of the tapestry of criticism of the SocJus.

Far right ideas like "replacement through immigration" or "ethno-states" were left unchallenged, traditionalist like Peterson were considered basically centrist, the Overton window shifted massively to the right. Sure, there were reactions against Vicky and gurugeorge for their peddling of Holocaust denial, but the core idea that the West is so massively under threat that the only reaction is to embrace ethno-nationalism seems to be more or less part of the DNA of this website.

Now by means of course I don't mean that each and every member of this website has shifted to the right. We still have people like free thoughtpolice or CaptainFluffyBunny who are centrist liberals and critics of Trump, and others like Old_Ones, Sunder, DrokkIt, (occasionally) Karmakin and me who are on the side of the reformation of the left according to Enlightenment, anti po-mo ideas.

But in general the idea that the Western Civilization is not only in need of reformation and maintenance, but under mortal threat from a combination of the Post-Modern left and immigration, has been making roads into the Pit, just like into the Skeptic Community in general.

Even Lsuoma seem convinced that Lauren Southern being banned from the UK is a sure sign that some kind of theocratic islamic state of Great Britain is on the horizon, and so ethno-nationalism might be the only way out. There ARE problems in the UK about criticism of islam, but surely one can't simply embrace the far-right instead of trying to fix things to support liberal democratic values and secularism. There are still plenty of non-far-right secularists around when it comes to Christianity, the trick is to focus less on race and more on religion to make people realize that islam is a religious, not ethnic issue.

I'm not saying that the people who have fallen for a false dichotomy between the SocJus/Regressives don't have their reasons. It's objectively hard to fight to reform things when no reforms seem in sight. But surely to fail into hopelessness and embrace the far-right alternative is a sign of weakness, of letting the mainstream thought to be dominated by Regressives on one side and ethno-fascists on the other.

Pinker, Harris, Dawkins, Coyne and ex or liberal muslims (from Nawaz to Rizvi) are still there. The core of reason and liberal democracy is still there. There's still hope of defending liberal democratic values without tying them to ethnicity and race, to reject the muslim theocrats on a secularist, not "traditionalist" basis. There are some people here who still think this and criticize both the SocJus and the Trumpian right, or ethno-nationalism.

But the risk of drifting into far-right, ethnocentric, "white nationalist" ideas is real. Brive here writes that "borders and traditions" in practice is the same as "defending a future for white children". This wouldn't have been considered normal even on the Pit just a couple of years ago.

Is the drift carrying on? Are we condemned to turn this place into the secular version of Stormfront? I don't think so, I don't think this is inevitable, but surely we have to be aware of what happened, realize how far have the boundaries been pushed.

Otherwise the pipes for Nazism have not only being laid in, but are about to become fully operational.

Hmm. I generally enjoy your analyses Kirbmarc, but this site is generally a free speech zone where people voice or test drive inner thoughts and do some gentle-acerbic trolling. It has never been a lobbyist site, and there is push back and discussion on whatever is put up. "My thoughts be bloody, or be nothing worth" (Hamlet)

[free thoughtpolice]

CFB wrote:

If I recall, that was mostly just Welch

I have to confess that I did a little trolling of him back then. :mrgreen:

[CaptainFluffyBunny]

Meyers reveals yet another fetish:

https://i.imgur.com/EyhNfpl.png

I have no idea what that means. Do I want to?

[Matt Cavanaugh]

re. Chicago vs. New York

* Chicago politics was for decades incredibly corrupt, and dominated by a family dynasty;
* NYC addressed its crime problem back in the early 90's. You couldn't get away with that now, as it would be deemed racist;
* Chicago has a huge gang problem; most of the homicides are gang-related. Gangs thrive in large part because trad family structures do not exist, but you cannot even say that, much less do something about it;
* Most of the crime is perpetrated by blacks. That's another third rail you cannot touch -- it's verboten to say there's something wrong with black urban subculture;
* Most of the crime is perpetrated against blacks. As much as white upper class SJWs like to virtue signal their concern for 'marginalized minorities', at the end of the day, they don't give a flying fuck about the hoi polloi, so long as their idyllic life atop Metropolis is unaffected.

WRT the last point, I'll never forget the moment of my epiphany, when I realized liberals and 'progressives' were not one & the same. I'd just moved to the SF Bay and had reconnected with some old friends from high school. At a dinner party, they were going on about what a Big Problem homelessness was in SF. I finally interjected: 'Well, it's obviously not a problem, else you'd be doing something about it. Pearl Harbor -- now that was a problem.'

Chicago will continue to rot indefinitely. So long as the SJWs hold sway, they will prevent others from doing anything constructive, but will do jack shit themselves.

[CaptainFluffyBunny]

CFB wrote:

If I recall, that was mostly just Welch

I have to confess that I did a little trolling of him back then. :mrgreen:

Do you know that most people have no idea where the word "trolling" originated? They think it has to do with the mythological beastie. I told a friend that I was going trolling for kokanee and she thought I was just going to annoy them. City folk, amirite?

[Kirbmarc]

2. The second quoted paragraph shows your problem. You assign simple labels and conclusions to a discussion in flux. You are a clever guy. But, ahh, let’s say, umm, - you take things very seriously and literally. It’s a flaw you should be aware of. This place often operates on levels on humour, nuance and layers of nuance. It is also a place where ideas can be kicked around, challenged, refined, debunked. It’s not pipe laying.

The problem is that the layers and layers of humor and nuance are, well, much thinner than many think in some cases. You have argued for an ethno-state/ethno-nationalism many times so far. You have deliberately mocked anything else as just being as po-mo as the SocJus. You're not exactly kicking ideas around and challenging them when it comes to this. If the discussion is in flux the flux is coming just from one direction. It's not like you're posting Concordance or Shaun and Jen videos to counterbalance things. After a while the distinction between the joke and the actual position is, well, hard to tell.

3. The third paragraph highlights this issue. Let’s take your example apart a bit. You had provided a difficult to follow personal ideological discourse on Peterson, “narratives”, (social?) evolution and the need to discard outmoded thought patterns as the world quickly grew more complex. There was your usual implicit concern over what could be perceived as ‘traditional’ views.

If it was too difficult to follow, here's an easier version: JP is a christian reactionary in a world where the reasons which created the positions he supports no longer exist. He's just as anachronistic as a supporter of flat earth, and just like flat earthers he has tons of loopy rationalizations for his ideas. People like him because he caught the SocJus with their pants down, but that's just like a flat earther who debunks the theory of a 9/11 truther because it's based on the assumption of a non-flat earth.

And challenged your POV in as few words as possible. More expansively - as the world becomes more complex, base-humans will want simple scaffolds of meaning to define their organisational self identity.

As the world becomes more complex, those simple scaffolding of meaning become less and less accurate and productive approaches to the world. As more people live in big, crowded, cosmopolitan cities, tribalism clashes with the reality of many "tribes" living side by side, and ethno-nationalism becomes more and more hard to implement, and more likely to lead to illiberal actions.

Your liberal high-values based approach wilts compared to what people find actual meaning in: a group-nation defined by fixed borders. Common means of expression within the group. Common bonds of history, visual identity and culture. I noted the irony that these principles often operate within a racial milieu (think, oh Japan/China if the Horst-Wessel-Lied starts playing in your mind). But I pointed out this racial thing should not be the active driver. It is a natural offshoot, a deliverable.

People finding meaning in something doesn't even remotely mean that the meaning is productive to an interaction with a changing world. People find meaning in Scientology, too, or in countless cults, in a world that has rejected authoritarian control of a dominant religion. All heil Xenu, then.

Now I get it. You see a fluid world where modern processes mix and match and swirl and eddy peoples into a stew. A world where goodness is defined through the application of objectively ‘true’, universal humanistic values.

I see a world where most people are no longer subsistence farmers who are born, live and die in their little village, but move around in droves for a variety of different reasons. That's a fact. Now, what you do about it are political choices.

I don’t see the base premise in successful operation. Anywhere. The only peoples laying down their group identities are the western nations. Multiculturalism is driven by this one-sided left-liberal altruism and a desire for population based GDP growth. This policy is altering the demographic mix - label that as you will. I see immigrant groups quite rightly holding onto their culture in silos. I see one particular (introduced) group looking to virulently expand their world view into the cultural void left in the post-nation state. I see this same group waging active war on the host nation. And now I see the powers that be, in opposition to public opinion, defend their failing policies via the very totalitarianism which your worldview sets out to avoid.

That's because multiculturalism is deeply, deeply flawed by the ideas of cultural relativism, of "respect for all cultures", of SocJus narratives about assimilation to the same humanistic values and standards being "colonialism". The solution to the co-existence of people of different cultural origin doesn't have to be multiculturalism, though.

But here's a thing: multi-ETHNIC states are already a reality. There are already plenty of people of non-English, non-European ancestry in the UK. You can't get rid of them without employing authoritarian measures, like the ones Steersman proposes. You can't simply close the gates, either, because economies ARE based on immigrant labor. So you need to find a way to get people to adhere to the same vague humanistic standards and to get along better.

Pushing for ethno-states/ethnic identity politics simply means reinforcing ethnic identities on both sides. Not a clever plan.

Kirb, your left-lib soul mates aren’t identifying these issues. You are not pushing back against Luton and grooming. They are not confronting the NGO facilitated drive for open borders in the Mediterranean. You mob aren’t articulating an end state and KPIs for your own ideological experiment or how a million non-aligned economic refugees constitute success. They are however rolling on and knocking down collectives (like Poland) that deviate.

The thing is that the immigrants are already here. You can't get rid of them just by saying you don't want them. You can't deter immigration simply by saying "there won't be anymore NGOs carrying you around". You need to find a way to tackle integration issues and crime in this next context. And yes, if you're part of an Union of States, you need to take your own share of the burden, especially if you agreed to it. You can't simply expect other countries in the Union to do all the work.

Robinson, Goldy, Southern, hell even Trump, are intensely interesting because they are engaging in a way your ‘team’ isn’t. They see the silent issues, even if they are off in explaining the dynamics causing them. Even if they are imprecise in how to solve the problem.

I have no doubt that they do. That's the secret of their popularity. But a wrong answer to a real problem is exactly what I'm wary of.

After all, if you allow me to go full Godwin, Hitler himself had a point when he talked about how the treaty of Versailles was unfair, and how Germany had been screwed up by the 1929 crisis. And hell, the bastard even delivered jobs and relative prosperity to the Germans. He identified a problem that the other parties were silent about, even if he was off in explaining the dynamics that caused it, and was imprecise about how to solve the problem.

But to close the circle. The pit, in part, is responding the same forces that caused brexit, Trump, the migrant crisis, the uptick in terrorism, the loss of free speech. I guess it’s just that complex changing world you talk of.

I see that. As I said, it's a shift to the right that is happening in the whole "skeptic" community. And I completely understand its reasons. I don't look down on people who have chosen to jump ship, either. I simply point out that was feels interesting or right is something we should be afraid of. The easiest, most visible solution isn't necessarily the best one.

But to label this support for an alt right, Nazi ethnostate mandate is beneath you.

I have used some hyperbole (hey, look I'm not taking everything so ehm, ahm, seriously, I can play along too). I don't think you, or anyone here, is in favor of ethnic cleansing or other Nazi-like policy (well, nobody except Steersman).

But the creeping racialization of the problems of immigration is still a red flag. It's shifting the POV from one about religion and culture to one about ethnic origin. It's abandoning universal principles and choosing to be deliberately partial. It's not a good sign.

[CaptainFluffyBunny]

re. Chicago vs. New York

* Chicago politics was for decades incredibly corrupt, and dominated by a family dynasty;
* NYC addressed its crime problem back in the early 90's. You couldn't get away with that now, as it would be deemed racist;
* Chicago has a huge gang problem; most of the homicides are gang-related. Gangs thrive in large part because trad family structures do not exist, but you cannot even say that, much less do something about it;
* Most of the crime is perpetrated by blacks. That's another third rail you cannot touch -- it's verboten to say there's something wrong with black urban subculture;
* Most of the crime is perpetrated against blacks. As much as white upper class SJWs like to virtue signal their concern for 'marginalized minorities', at the end of the day, they don't give a flying fuck about the hoi polloi, so long as their idyllic life atop Metropolis is unaffected.

WRT the last point, I'll never forget the moment of my epiphany, when I realized liberals and 'progressives' were not one & the same. I'd just moved to the SF Bay and had reconnected with some old friends from high school. At a dinner party, they were going on about what a Big Problem homelessness was in SF. I finally interjected: 'Well, it's obviously not a problem, else you'd be doing something about it. Pearl Harbor -- now that was a problem.'

Chicago will continue to rot indefinitely. So long as the SJWs hold sway, they will prevent others from doing anything constructive, but will do jack shit themselves.

Absolutely. Why is there white culture (where that is even admitted) and black culture? Shouldn't it just be *insert country here* culture? The deliberate distancing creates problems, especially when black culture grows disdainful of ALL other cultures and openly encourages violating the law and social norms. It's okay to acknowledge where you came from, but when your culture and even language begin to drift away, then there's a problem. Yet SJWs openly encourage, even demand this distancing.

There are huge problems with racism among POC, Hispanics vs blacks vs Pac Islanders, vs Asian. Or non-dominant white cultures, some of the Russian immigrants in my area openly call blacks animals or monkeys. Chinese are disdainful of Filipinos.

Laying all these problems on whites only ignores the reality and manages to drive whites more toward racism. Yet you can't even bring these things up lest you get branded a racist. We're all in this thing together, we need to act like it.

[Guest_d2e60302]

I see a lot of the "leftees" on twitter, so it may not be so much as the pit has changed as twitter has offered more value to them than the pit, whose original reason for being has largely been marginalized with passing time.

[rayshul]

Here's the worst things happening as the result of PC culture. Right up there with UK grooming gangs is the treatment of aboriginal kids in Australia who are getting raped and abused at an insane level... but it isn't PC to remove them from their communities. This is an entire generation of kids getting raped.

https://nz.news.yahoo.com/stark-protect ... --spt.html

[shoutinghorse]

Made I larf .. :lol:

https://i.imgur.com/9Y5jyF0.jpg

[Kirbmarc]

Think you're slightly overreacting. Nobody save Steers has gone full Nazi. Even then I think the term is both untrue And unhelpful. Rarely is it anything other than an insult. While I don't share his views art all, if Brive or others seem to be getting to be a little heated about culture, I can see their issues at least. Muslims are being praised while whites are being openly discriminated against. My daughter's humanities college classes are openly hostile to American Government and the amorphous idea of "white culture." They are openly hostile to the idea or enlightenment values. It is frankly frightening.

As to the board, either some people here would openly kill or deport members not of their race/culture or maybe they want higher standards of cultural assimilation for those that choose to immigrate to Western nations. I tend to think Brive and others tend towards the latter.

Or are these things new. Don't you recall that Caruthers regularly posted antisemitic cartoons, and it became difficult to tell if they were ironic because he spammed the board with them? Jan and most of the others left, it seemed to me, from the Trump supporters here, not from incipient Nazism, although they may certainly lump those things together.

Things probably look very different to me here in the PNW of America than they do to Brive in Australia or yourself in Switzerland. I am alarmed at some of the news coming out of the UK, but I don't know how much that reflects the reality of life there. I suspect Brive has some unique reasons for his seeming rightward shift. I dunno the reasons for Brive's support for cultural purity, and I've always suspected a bit of it is tongue-in-cheek. Especially in the way he attacked Vicky's holocaust denialism, he didn't strike me as a "final solution" kinda guy.

Aneris lumped Sargon in with Nazis, which was both not true and spectacularly unhelpful. There are real Nazi types out there, and lumping everybody to the right as potential Nazis ensures that you never understand their position and may push some of them even further to the right.

My 2cents.

Perhaps I haven't been clear, or I have used too much of a hyperbole. I don't think that this place has gone 100%, full Nazi (yet? OK, no, just kidding here). I do, however, think that there's a creeping issue of insert race/ethnicity into the big cauldron of fighting against ideology, and that worries me.

I have addressed Caruther's ironic Nazism in my post. I too thought, and still think, that it was taking the piss, mocking the FTB crowd for calling us Nazis, and at the moment it was fully justified. Today, well, we're not Nazis, but with ideas about ethno-nationalism and ethnic purity being tossed around willy-nilly, albeit in a half-joking fashion or within a context of culture, the joke is a bit less funny than it was.

I don't think that Sargon is a Nazi. I've worked with the guy after all. However I do think that in fighting the SocJus he's giving a little too much credit to identitarians on the right, even though he's far more of cultural than an ethnic nationalist.

I don't think Brive is a Nazi, either, I think he's a bit too overly concerned with ethnicity though, in a way that's not actually productive to a discussion about cultural clashes within immigration contexts.

I completely understand why people are pissed at the SocJus and its demonization of the "Evil Whites", or if its hypocritical defense of ALL non-whites from any responsibility for any cultural issue. Hell, I'm starting to think that any form of ethnic essentialism is a complete waste of time.

But the thing is that people like Southern or Pettibone ARE tied to some ideas which are based far more on ethnicity that anything else. They are propagating bullshit and hyperbolic news to support their case. They are seeing issues through ethnic lenses, and potentially ignoring other factors.

To close our eyes and pretend that since the SocJus exists then we need the ethno-nationalists as allies or counterbalance is as daft as it was when a lot of people saw the SocJus infiltration of movement atheism and thought it was no big deal.

[Kirbmarc]

Absolutely. Why is there white culture (where that is even admitted) and black culture? Shouldn't it just be *insert country here* culture? The deliberate distancing creates problems, especially when black culture grows disdainful of ALL other cultures and openly encourages violating the law and social norms. It's okay to acknowledge where you came from, but when your culture and even language begin to drift away, then there's a problem. Yet SJWs openly encourage, even demand this distancing.

There are huge problems with racism among POC, Hispanics vs blacks vs Pac Islanders, vs Asian. Or non-dominant white cultures, some of the Russian immigrants in my area openly call blacks animals or monkeys. Chinese are disdainful of Filipinos.

Laying all these problems on whites only ignores the reality and manages to drive whites more toward racism. Yet you can't even bring these things up lest you get branded a racist. We're all in this thing together, we need to act like it.

And I agree with all of this, the focus on the Evil Whites who are the Root of All Evil in the SocJus is highly counterproductive. But in order to fight that you need to put in question the idea of ethnic identity itself, you need to re-affirm neutral, universal values. You can't do that if you're shackled to people who made white identity politics into their own little pet project. You can't say that there's a cultural problem about ghettoization and lack of inclusiveness, but then promote those who complain about "the great replacement". You can't make people see that inter-ethnic tensions are far more complex than black vs. white if you're sharing videos about how there might be a "white genocide".

[shoutinghorse]

re. Chicago vs. New York

* Chicago politics was for decades incredibly corrupt, and dominated by a family dynasty;
* NYC addressed its crime problem back in the early 90's. You couldn't get away with that now, as it would be deemed racist;
* Chicago has a huge gang problem; most of the homicides are gang-related. Gangs thrive in large part because trad family structures do not exist, but you cannot even say that, much less do something about it;
* Most of the crime is perpetrated by blacks. That's another third rail you cannot touch -- it's verboten to say there's something wrong with black urban subculture;
* Most of the crime is perpetrated against blacks. As much as white upper class SJWs like to virtue signal their concern for 'marginalized minorities', at the end of the day, they don't give a flying fuck about the hoi polloi, so long as their idyllic life atop Metropolis is unaffected.

WRT the last point, I'll never forget the moment of my epiphany, when I realized liberals and 'progressives' were not one & the same. I'd just moved to the SF Bay and had reconnected with some old friends from high school. At a dinner party, they were going on about what a Big Problem homelessness was in SF. I finally interjected: 'Well, it's obviously not a problem, else you'd be doing something about it. Pearl Harbor -- now that was a problem.'

Chicago will continue to rot indefinitely. So long as the SJWs hold sway, they will prevent others from doing anything constructive, but will do jack shit themselves.

Bold italics .. You could quite easily be describing the problems in London.

[Matt Cavanaugh]

Sorry to interrupt the Pit Civil War, but I'm returned from the Front where massive dipshit, John Pieret, is growing ever more desperate to dismiss any & all evidence contradicting the trans radical narrative that early transition then hormones then SRS is the panacea to make all the oppressed trans kids into bright and shiny happy folk:

https://disqus.com/home/discussion/frie ... 3811223336

He's already cycled through ad hominem, poisoning the well, argumentum ad populum (albeit based on a non-existent 'populum'), to a very pathetic attempt to hurt my fee-fees by telling me my reputation at Patheos was in tatters. That one was a hoot. I fucking cultivate a bad reputation there.





Note: If Joan Jett were growing up today, they'd be pressuring her to transition.

[ConcentratedH2O, OM]

Meyers reveals yet another fetish:

https://i.imgur.com/EyhNfpl.png

I have no idea what that means. Do I want to?

I googled the three words in that URL, and the result - along with Meyers sniffing around it like a dog on heat - makes me think I don't want to visit.

[Really?]

Sorry to interrupt the Pit Civil War, but I'm returned from the Front where massive dipshit, John Pieret, is growing ever more desperate to dismiss any & all evidence contradicting the trans radical narrative that early transition then hormones then SRS is the panacea to make all the oppressed trans kids into bright and shiny happy folk:

https://disqus.com/home/discussion/frie ... 3811223336

He's already cycled through ad hominem, poisoning the well, argumentum ad populum (albeit based on a non-existent 'populum'), to a very pathetic attempt to hurt my fee-fees by telling me my reputation at Patheos was in tatters. That one was a hoot. I fucking cultivate a bad reputation there.





Note: If Joan Jett were growing up today, they'd be pressuring her to transition.

Maybe this is a wake-up call for you. I mean, you have lost the respect of intellectual titans and moral exemplars like WMDKitty and Raging Bee. How do you sleep at night knowing that they see through your weak attempts to spread transphobia and toxic masculinity?

[Matt Cavanaugh]

The UK Sharia hit on Lauren Southern has made it to Spiked. Killer article. Hopefully the dam of silence has broke.

http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/ar ... q2qQiOZO34

[Matt Cavanaugh]

How do you sleep at night knowing that they see through your weak attempts to spread transphobia and toxic masculinity?

At night is when I do most of my masculinity spreading.

[CaptainFluffyBunny]

Peterson. He may not be the hero we want, but the one we deserve. And we don't really have a choice in the matter. He has some good points, a little bit of problems in epistemology, but I think (and fervently hope) that his intent is benign.

Also, I'm beginning to question myself. I've been an lifelong atheist, never understood faith at all. I've always been fascinated by it, from the born-again nutjobs in the town I grew up in to scientology and now the secular religions of intersectionalism and Marxism. I've always thought that people needed to understand the truth, that they could be rational. Now I'm not sure.

I think that evolution has geared a certain amount of the faith bug in most people. If it's not god or allah, it's feminism. The need to believe in something, to be a part of something is just too strong. Not for everybody, obviously. But most people just gotta have faith.

If there is a certain bit of truth lost in the faith & family values of Peterson, I fully accept that as the cost of not losing avenues to the truth. He isn't in favor of shutting down lines of inquiry as are SJWs and religious nutjobs. I really believe that the Peterson movement is a step in the right (get it? Right?) direction. I don't see the small loss of objective truth to be as detrimental as letting the identitarians on either side make any more headway.

I'm not certain I'm explaining myself very well here, but I hope you get the gist. I was a bad boy, and am now laid up and medicated. Grump.

[mordacious1]

Indian book on great leaders:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DYfRov-UQAAgZdA?format=jpg

[Brive1987]

Jesus Kirb. You forced me from iPad to PC you bastard.

The problem is that the layers and layers of humor and nuance are, well, much thinner than many think in some cases. You have argued for an ethno-state/ethno-nationalism many times so far. You have deliberately mocked anything else as just being as po-mo as the SocJus. You're not exactly kicking ideas around and challenging them when it comes to this ...

I am exploring my models of thought and challenging rebuttal. I have reached a point where I am comfortable with some aspects of my model and still in flux with other parts in varying degrees. This is a nuanced approach. Talking about WSA as the least likely group to skin and eat their young is also black humor with intent. There is a cultural fitness for Australia that flows along an African spectrum. WSA are close to one end. Cannibals are way down the other side. Where a given African candidate sits is the the never ending $64 question. The Somali gangs in Melb appear to have fallen on the wrong side of the line in the way WSA generally don't. See? Layers of hyperbole, humour and meaning.

_________________

JP is a christian reactionary in a world where the reasons which created the positions he supports no longer exist. He's just as anachronistic as a supporter of flat earth, and just like flat earthers he has tons of loopy rationalizations for his ideas. People like him because he caught the SocJus with their pants down, but that's just like a flat earther who debunks the theory of a 9/11 truther because it's based on the assumption of a non-flat earth.

Ahh. Here you present your 'baby thrown with the bath water' mentality. JP anti SJ rhetoric is not primarily driven by loopyisms. This weakness of yours has implications in the Pit race-wars allegations.

_________________

As the world becomes more complex, those simple scaffolding of meaning become less and less accurate and productive approaches to the world. As more people live in big, crowded, cosmopolitan cities, tribalism clashes with the reality of many "tribes" living side by side

If you say so. It seems to be a problem limited to Western multicultural states. Where are these tribes in Japan, China, Korea, Poland, Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Scotland, Wales, Ireland (pre 2040 madness), Mexico, Argentina, Chile, Hungary, Czech, Estonia, Latvia, Finland, Norway.

Fuck even Switzerland limits its tribes to fellow Europeans with 85% of all immigrants coming from said Euro-tribal friendly states. The problem isn't a world inherently mixed - its a world where some countries go down an unplanned unregulated multiculti pathway for ideological and economic reasons.

_________________

and ethno-nationalism becomes more and more hard to implement, and more likely to lead to illiberal actions.

True and just because a solution is easy doesn't mean we dismiss the underlying problem.

_________________

People finding meaning in something doesn't even remotely mean that the meaning is productive to an interaction with a changing world. People find meaning in Scientology, too, or in countless cults, in a world that has rejected authoritarian control of a dominant religion. All heil Xenu, then.

This is weak sauce indeed. Borders, language, culture has been the default model for centuries. And is in effective operation in the countries I mentioned and you ignored. Multicultural mass immigration is the new solution that needs to prove its bona fides.

_________________

I see a world where most people are no longer subsistence farmers who are born, live and die in their little village, but move around in droves for a variety of different reasons. That's a fact. Now, what you do about it are political choices.

a) That's bullshit. You have a clear ideology of civic-nationalism based on objectively ‘true’, universal humanistic values. You don't have a clear solution on how to get introduced groups to drop their values. Though clearly the Swiss model of ethno-markers works for your country. You duck and weave and equivocate whenever you are called on your world-view.

b) "but move around in droves for a variety of different reasons" - does this include the economic immigrants? Because if so we are fucked. What we have is a world organised into countries defined by shared values and culture and a world where citizens of less successful countries want a piece of other countries pies. And a world with Govts inclined to pull down borders for nefarious reasons.

_________________

But here's a thing: multi-ETHNIC states are already a reality. There are already plenty of people of non-English, non-European ancestry in the UK. You can't get rid of them without employing authoritarian measures, like the ones Steersman proposes. You can't simply close the gates, either, because economies ARE based on immigrant labor. So you need to find a way to get people to adhere to the same vague humanistic standards and to get along better.

Multi ethnic states are a reality in our failing western democracies. Yes. And in many cases this is amounting to 'replacement', 'displacement', 'genocide' [insert label of choice]. And you will need to demonstrate why immigration drivers for an economy that is growing but not supplying higher standards of living are worth keeping. And why traditional levels of immigration cant be reimposed. And why measures that encourage the welfare teat-suckers to piss off can't be brought in and why a 'fit in or fuck off' mentality can't be reintroduced.

But you have to start with rebasing to normal what (for instance) Britain is and isn't. "Meat pies, football, Kangaroos and Holden cars" used to be a tongue in cheek mantra here. Oh shit! That's a nod to cultural ethnoism. Stop conversation eh?
_________________

The thing is that the immigrants are already here. You can't get rid of them just by saying you don't want them. You can't deter immigration simply by saying "there won't be anymore NGOs carrying you around". You need to find a way to tackle integration issues and crime in this next context. And yes, if you're part of an Union of States, you need to take your own share of the burden, especially if you agreed to it. You can't simply expect other countries in the Union to do all the work.

Well I guess there is a window of opportunity to deal with them before permanency takes hold. They are only there because of weak borders and faulty ideology. The Southerns of this world started by dealing with the root causes to turn the tap off. Something the left-libs were loath to do. Bravo.

Poland and the East woke too late to the understanding that freedom of movement within Europe was now being extended on their behalf to the African continent.

_________________

I have no doubt that they do. That's the secret of their popularity. But a wrong answer to a real problem is exactly what I'm wary of.

After all, if you allow me to go full Godwin, Hitler himself had a point when he talked about how the treaty of Versailles was unfair, and how Germany had been screwed up by the 1929 crisis.

The Goldy's and Southerns et al are more interested for now in waking people up and stopping the problem escalating. Which is a valuable end in itself. Solutions are typically to have hard borders. Deport illegals (there's an idea). Deport criminal non citizens. Reaffirm the unique geo-based values that define the host culture, remove all minority based subsidies and extraordinary benefits and encourage financially backed incentives to return to countries of origin. Nary a cattle-car in sight.

_________________

I have used some hyperbole (hey, look I'm not taking everything so ehm, ahm, seriously, I can play along too). I don't think you, or anyone here, is in favor of ethnic cleansing or other Nazi-like policy (well, nobody except Steersman).

The pipe-laying comment was not, I take it, hyperbole? You also poison the well on terms such as "ethnic" and "ethno-state".

The former is simply defined as "a category of people who identify with each other based on similarities such as common ancestry, language, society, culture or nation". Hardly a jackbooted slippery slope to Auschwitz.

The latter is the practical implication of the former. It can vary from Australia in the 1970s. Switzerland and Poland now. And the Third Reich. How you choose to define the term when you are in opposition to it is a clear marker for bias. So beware.

_________________


Kirb you didn't really address my criticisms of your position in your fisking. The alt-lite and right are hitting more truths for now than the soft lib-left. Despite the hard rights causal conspiracy bullshit.

The issues you identified are in our power to stop, they are not global forces. The Nazism you fear is BS and your alternative proposition - which you never own or defend when push comes to shove - is dangerous idealism which only has a home in a strongly defended western cultural environment.



That's all. Peace Out.^TM

[Brive1987]

Who said that if Southern was serious she would directly attack the British Government - through peaceful means?



This defense of liberal free speech is what Kirb should have been arguing for when he was instead looking for (black) and reds under the Pit's bed.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

[fuzzy]

I was raised in Christian Science, which teaches roughly that Jesus Christ mastered a way of getting his mind right and seeing things "correctly" and without flaws which caused instantanious healing, or more precisely declared that the problem was never there to begin with. And You Too and gat your own mind right in this way. The concept of God is highly abstracted into a rule set, and depersonalized. Abstract interpretations of bible verses allowed. My brother says it was Mary Baker Eddy's way of bringing Buddism type ideas west. Ennyway it took me past my teens to unload it, but given what I've just told you, the step from Christian Science toward atheism is but a small one. A life crisis decades later still had me grasping for straws.

Net net, this upbringing resulted in my becoming very tolerant of people with all kinds of freaky beliefs, humor them while not believing it much. Toss out an occasional riposte just to let you know you haven't joined them. I've seen a roomful of people in total thrall to a total science bullshitter, and were I to have tried my best, I'd not have been able to talk sense into any one of them. Top notch example of the trade. Had gin and tonics with him.

Anyway, what Captain Fluffy Bunny said. I've essentially given up on the idea of finding logic in people. We're wired for faith. Peterson makes all the sense in the world to me right now, and he's directing me toward a lot of classic works I messed during my misspent college years.

[DrokkIt]

The UK Sharia hit on Lauren Southern has made it to Spiked. Killer article. Hopefully the dam of silence has broke.

http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/ar ... q2qQiOZO34

Good article.

[Brive1987]

The UK Sharia hit on Lauren Southern has made it to Spiked. Killer article. Hopefully the dam of silence has broke.

http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/ar ... q2qQiOZO34

Good article.

Spiked is very careful to send up virtue signaling flares.

Southern: "Alt-right Christian YouTuber " :naughty:

"two hard-right identitarians, the Austrian Martin Sellner and the American YouTuber Brittany Pettibone" :think:

"they don’t like what Ms Southern has to say, which is that Islam is dangerous, migration is out of control, and Europe is dying, etc. I don’t like what Ms Southern says, either ..."

"I detest identity politics of all kinds, whether it’s so-called SJWs treating everyone as skin colours, as biological entities, rather than as individuals, or Generation Identity standing up for white Europeans against a foreign menace."

https://i.imgur.com/WfbBbp7.jpg

[Brive1987]

Very interesting choice of pic for Southern in the Spiked article.

They couldn't have been buffering harder.

[Matt Cavanaugh]

Jesus Christ mastered a way of getting his mind right and seeing things "correctly" and without flaws which caused instantanious healing

So, like Wolverine, except with the sharp objects going into his hands instead of coming out.

[DrokkIt]

The UK Sharia hit on Lauren Southern has made it to Spiked. Killer article. Hopefully the dam of silence has broke.

http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/ar ... q2qQiOZO34

Good article.

Spiked is very careful to send up virtue signaling flares.

Southern: "Alt-right Christian YouTuber " :naughty:

"two hard-right identitarians, the Austrian Martin Sellner and the American YouTuber Brittany Pettibone" :think:

"they don’t like what Ms Southern has to say, which is that Islam is dangerous, migration is out of control, and Europe is dying, etc. I don’t like what Ms Southern says, either ..."

"I detest identity politics of all kinds, whether it’s so-called SJWs treating everyone as skin colours, as biological entities, rather than as individuals, or Generation Identity standing up for white Europeans against a foreign menace."

https://i.imgur.com/WfbBbp7.jpg

My guess is because O'Neil is a left-libertarian type so he has his biases.
You'll find the same reluctance in the right-wing writing if you look at it objectively... in fact they tend to just throw anyone lefty under the "intersectional idiot" bus which is every bit as useful as calling all Trump voters racist.

What's important here is that both sides (being, as they are, a loose group of biases and tendencies) agree on Southern being banned = the wrong decision.

[Matt Cavanaugh]

Who said that if Southern was serious she would directly attack the British Government - through peaceful means?



This defense of liberal free speech is what Kirb should have been arguing for when he was instead looking for (black) and reds under the Pit's bed.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Herr Sellner needs a different hair cut. Just saying. He's a mustache away from the full monty.

[Lsuoma]

The thing is that the immigrants are already here. You can't get rid of them just by saying you don't want them. You can't deter immigration simply by saying "there won't be anymore NGOs carrying you around". You need to find a way to tackle integration issues and crime in this next context.

<Much snippage>

But the creeping racialization of the problems of immigration is still a red flag. It's shifting the POV from one about religion and culture to one about ethnic origin. It's abandoning universal principles and choosing to be deliberately partial. It's not a good sign.

To take the two paragraphs above:

1. Yes they are in the UK, and some of them, whose identities are known, are raping and abusing hundreds, and possibly thousands of young girls. Before tackling integration issues, which is indeed tough, let's tackle the crimes. Much easier. This might have a number of effects. It might dissuade immigration, but lots of the alleged rapists are probably UK citizens, and so can't be deported. It might cause mass violence and riots in many cities. Well, so be it - the alternative of allowing this stuff to happen because you're afraid to tackle it is not an acceptable posture for a government. This stuff needs dealing with, and virtually everybody in the UK knows why it's not happening - pandering and fear.

2. Let's separate out the issue of immigration from the rape gangs - there is no necessary connection, and I would be just as outraged if it was gangs of white UK citizens raping anyone of whatever race or colour. How would you characterize the gangs - Pakistani? Muslim? English? Something else? Let's talk about whether we should look at it as a cultural/racial/immigrant problem at all, or whether we should just say it's a bunch of individuals with no real common characteristics.

BTW, I LOLed at the underlined sentence because I am assuming that you are not talking about the approaches of state entities for the last few decades, but about someone else. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Let me pose a hypothetical to you as well - feel free not to answer: how would Swiss citizens react if there was a very cohesive group of people who could be characterized fairly easily, and who had been performing well documented and widespread gang rapes of young girls for a couple of generations? Of course, it's tougher for you because of the approach you share with the Gulf states - let 'em in when we need them, don't approve any but the barest number of applications for citizenship, and toss 'em away when you no longer need 'em.

[Really?]

The UK Sharia hit on Lauren Southern has made it to Spiked. Killer article. Hopefully the dam of silence has broke.

http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/ar ... q2qQiOZO34

Good article.

Spiked is very careful to send up virtue signaling flares.

Southern: "Alt-right Christian YouTuber " :naughty:

"two hard-right identitarians, the Austrian Martin Sellner and the American YouTuber Brittany Pettibone" :think:

"they don’t like what Ms Southern has to say, which is that Islam is dangerous, migration is out of control, and Europe is dying, etc. I don’t like what Ms Southern says, either ..."

"I detest identity politics of all kinds, whether it’s so-called SJWs treating everyone as skin colours, as biological entities, rather than as individuals, or Generation Identity standing up for white Europeans against a foreign menace."

https://i.imgur.com/WfbBbp7.jpg

Why are they using female pronouns and honorifics when Lauren Southern is a legal male, according to her home country?

[Brive1987]

My guess is because O'Neil is a left-libertarian type so he has his biases.
You'll find the same reluctance in the right-wing writing if you look at it objectively... in fact they tend to just throw anyone lefty under the "intersectional idiot" bus which is every bit as useful as calling all Trump voters racist.

What's important here is that both sides (being, as they are, a loose group of biases and tendencies) agree on Southern being banned = the wrong decision.

I agree. Its interesting that the Government violations are seen as savage enough to warrant comment and awkward optics.

[Brive1987]

Who said that if Southern was serious she would directly attack the British Government - through peaceful means?

htt.ps://youtu.be/eRGB2bfG72c

This defense of liberal free speech is what Kirb should have been arguing for when he was instead looking for (black) and reds under the Pit's bed.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Herr Sellner needs a different hair cut. Just saying. He's a mustache away from the full monty.

His organisation's actions are more piss and vinegar than the high-and-tight suggests.

Activities

In February 2013, nine members of the IBÖ attempted a counter-occupation of the Viennese Votive Church that had previously been occupied by refugees to protest living conditions within the government-owned and privately administrated refugee camps they've been assigned to. They were arrested and escorted off the premises by SWAT officers several hours later following the pastor's request for police assistance.[6]
On November 10, 2013, the IBÖ briefly occupied a balcony of the Fundamental Rights Agency until police officers arrived to escort them off the premises.[7]

On May 17, 2014, the IBÖ attempted to stage another rally in Vienna's main shopping mile Mariahilfer Straße (de). Despite having been provided with a protective detail by the Federal Police, they were unable to gain access to their planned route as a result of a considerably larger anti-racist counter demonstration. While interaction between the two demonstrations was minimal and largely restricted to a verbal level, State Director Gerhard Pürstl received heavy criticism from both activist groups and national media outlets over the use of heavy-handed riot control tactics. 37 anti-racist protesters were arrested; a banner that Federal Police officers confiscated from a group of activists was later put on display on the IBÖ's website.[8]

On April 14, 2016, a group of roughly 40 IBÖ activists illegally gained access to the University of Vienna's Audimax lecture hall while a play by the Jewish playwright and novelist Elfriede Jelinek was being performed by refugee actors, shouting with a megaphone and accusing the audience of being hypocrites with a banner that was poured with fake blood while documenting the incident photographically. Attendants of the play report being physically attacked by IBÖ members, although the IBÖ categorically denies accusations of engaging in political violence. The Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution and Counterterrorism reports a total of eight charges of assault with grievous bodily harm filed by both members of the audience and IBÖ activists, which are being processed;[9] the Federal Police has dropped all felony charges and announced that it is merely investigating the possibility of an unlawful public disturbance.[10][11]

[DrokkIt]

My guess is because O'Neil is a left-libertarian type so he has his biases.
You'll find the same reluctance in the right-wing writing if you look at it objectively... in fact they tend to just throw anyone lefty under the "intersectional idiot" bus which is every bit as useful as calling all Trump voters racist.

What's important here is that both sides (being, as they are, a loose group of biases and tendencies) agree on Southern being banned = the wrong decision.

I agree. Its interesting that the Government violations are seen as savage enough to warrant comment and awkward optics.

Yeah. At this point I'l take whatever we can get. I expect rightwing sources to be anti-this kind of thing, so any vaguely left/centre voice speaking up i agreement HAS to be a good thing. The general public need to understand what is going on and there needs to be a mandate to do something or it';s going to be torches and pitchforks.

[Lsuoma]

Who said that if Southern was serious she would directly attack the British Government - through peaceful means?



This defense of liberal free speech is what Kirb should have been arguing for when he was instead looking for (black) and reds under the Pit's bed.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Herr Sellner needs a different hair cut. Just saying. He's a mustache away from the full monty.

I found the picture BEFORE retouching:

sellhit.png

(273.69 KiB) Downloaded 118 times

[Ape+lust]

Unfortunatly her "Reginald" masterpiece has myseriously dissapeared from YouTube.

HAHA! Of course it has. 7 years after Dear Muslima and her butthurt is as fresh as day one.

Unfortunately, she's as lazy as she is cowardly.



Plus, backup: