There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#241

Post by Kirbmarc » Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:21 am

VickyCaramel wrote:
ThreeFlangedJavis wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:10 am
Fortean strikes me as a name for people who want to be called skeptics without having to let go of pet pseudoscience or woo.
There are two kinds of skeptics... those who are chasing the 'debunk' so they can cross it of their list, they seem to think this makes them smarter than everyone else, yet they sound idiotic when they are dismissive of mysteries they can't solve. And there are those that enjoy the mystery. Obviously there is a spectrum but I am on the Fortean end and enjoy debunking the debunkers just as much as I enjoy debunking conspiracy theorists.
I think that this is a gross over-simplification (bordering on the caricature). The biggest problem with "mysteries" is often figuring out whether a mystery even exists, or it's simply the result of a flawed approach to reality. People's ability to invent and believes stories not only without any evidence, but against evidence itself, is quite widespread. So the first thing to be done, when confronted with a story, is to try to understand whether there is some basis for it or it's just a tall tale. Only when you have enough material to accept that there is something to a story you can start thinking about what exactly is going on.

Charles Fort's biggest weakness was accepting tall tales and eyewitness testimony as evidence without any form of screening, and to consider all testimonies and stories as independent and so as corroborating each other, when quite often this is not the case.

The Fortean approach is to simply record all the anecdotes and stories that people tell each other about a certain argument and then to speculate based on the common pattern you find, assuming those common patterns to have at least some relationship to accuracy. The weakness is in that assumption, though. Common themes and elements found in people's stories do not necessarily correspond to reality. Thousands of people believe in ghosts (or Bigfoot XD), and many ghost stories have common elements and themes, but this doesn't mean that ghosts are real, or that one should accept the reality of ghosts/Bigfoot as the default position just because so many people believe in it.

A better approach is to formulate a specific hypothesis and evaluate according to how well it first the positive and negative evidence (not just how well the stories fit together). For example in the case of Bigfoot the hypothesis of a large, yet still undiscovered primate living in certain parts of North America doesn't fit well with the negative evidence of absence of a fossil record, absence of traces like teeth, feces, fur, bones, scratching and resting places, etc.

So rather than taking as granted that such a large primate exists and then start speculating on its habits it's better to evaluate stories according to the current state of the evidence (positive and negative).

Ultimately Charles Fort was a crank who defended his belief in crank-y ideas with "you can't prove for certain that everything I'm saying it's wrong, so I must be somewhat right", not unlike many other woo-meisters or religious thinkers.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#242

Post by Tigzy » Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:22 am

French women showing some of that Joan of Arc spirit. Vive Le France.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-42630108

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#243

Post by Kirbmarc » Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:24 am

Urban legends quite often are very similar even in different and distant areas. This doesn't prove that they're accurate anymore that the common features of old creation myths prove that any gods exist.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#244

Post by MarcusAu » Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:35 am

Tigzy wrote: French women showing some of that Joan of Arc spirit. Vive Le France.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-42630108
Just wondering if Ali is going to follow the example and rat out Phil.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#245

Post by screwtape » Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:35 am

Steersman wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:39 pm
Billie from Ockham wrote: Just answer the question, then, instead of obeying my request that it be treated as rhetorical. What makes you think that having 8x12 pictures will make any difference when you meet a person for the first time and you're face-to-face?
What makes you think that I said those 8x12s would make a difference? What I said was:
Steersman wrote:Fer instance, not as easy to have recourse to pictures, to 8x12 photographs with circles & arrow and a paragraph on the back of each.
Is that somehow asserting that they would make a difference?

I said that because, probably, I couldn't really envision a situation where the necessity for them would arise, and even if it did they probably wouldn't be readily available. Looks like two entirely different kettles of fish - at least to me; seems that what you hear is rather different from what I said.

But IF there were two or more of us - maybe over a couple of beers discussing the problematic aspects of stereotypes; hardly a "first-time" scenario - THEN being able to put those "8x12s" on the table might well help to clarify the nitty-gritty aspects of comparing groups and individuals.
Is this inflation? Photographs are generally 10x8 (inches, that is) and the next size up in ultra-large format cameras is 11x14. I know - I caught the bug.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#246

Post by screwtape » Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:40 am

I'll see your piggy and raise you a machine gun toting hippo:

http://img.soundtrackcollector.com/cd/l ... _CD003.jpg

Possibly the best movie not made by Jim Henson.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#247

Post by MarcusAu » Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:45 am

Kirbmarc wrote: Urban legends quite often are very similar even in different and distant areas. This doesn't prove that they're accurate anymore that the common features of old creation myths prove that any gods exist.
As Stalin (repportedly) said "Quantity has a quality of it's own".

One thing that puts the Forteans in a more favourable light is the level of exploitation they give to their efforts. They are not (in general) making a shit-ton of money, and it's pretty clear what you are getting if you choose to buy any of their goods or services. Opting out is not too difficult either. (Though some may have more knowledge than me if certain sections are more 'cult like' in their behaviour).

The religio-industrial complex on the other hand is operating at a whole 'nother level - both financially and culturally in the amount of influence it has in peoples lives.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#248

Post by Bhurzum » Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:56 am

screwtape wrote: I'll see your piggy and raise you a machine gun toting hippo:

http://img.soundtrackcollector.com/cd/l ... _CD003.jpg

Possibly the best movie not made by Jim Henson.
I 'aint got myxomatosis, I 'aint got myxomatosis [BLAM]

Fucking love that movie - the scene with the press-fly eating shit still makes me dry-heave!

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#249

Post by Tigzy » Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:02 am

Kirbmarc wrote: Charles Fort's biggest weakness was accepting tall tales and eyewitness testimony as evidence without any form of screening, and to consider all testimonies and stories as independent and so as corroborating each other, when quite often this is not the case.
Actually, most of the data Fort collected came from the respectable scientific publications of the time. He was curious as to why certain phenomena - such as lights and glows spotted on the surface of the moon, as occasionally recorded in astronomical journals - remained steadfastly ignored by the wider scientific community. He determined that such phenomena - data - didn't fit prevailing scientific orthodoxy, and so was 'damned'. Hence, his Book of The Damned.

He may have been wrong in this - but it is ingenuous to say he only accepted 'tall tales and eyewitness testimony'. Also, to suggest he would accept them as 'evidence' is also incorrect - evidence of what, exactly, other than that sometimes, inconvenient data is overlooked? Fort was no swivel-eyed believer in any old shite, simply because he had some disdain for the prevailing attitudes of the scientific establishment. His agnosticism went both ways. After all, one does not have to be alt-right to be sceptical of the tenets of the social justice movement, right? (and vice-versa, of course)

Another thing to remember is that Fort was a massive pisstaker. So this:
Ultimately Charles Fort was a crank who defended his belief in crank-y ideas with "you can't prove for certain that everything I'm saying it's wrong, so I must be somewhat right", not unlike many other woo-meisters or religious thinkers.
Isn't quite right, either. He never took his own wild speculations all that seriously, and occasionally expressed some exasperation at how his pal Theodore Dreiser - who had a noted mystical bent - would lap them up. Basically, Fort was one of those people who was into trolling before trolling was a thing, so - yeah.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#250

Post by Billie from Ockham » Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:05 am

AndrewV69 wrote: BTW,

For those of you who have not read the James Damor memo (usually referred to as a screed or manifesto by the permanently outraged etc. & c) you can read it here *trigger warning* it is a PDF. Google’s Ideological Echo Chamber - James Damore Memo
(I was thinking to myself when I read the Damore memo how the FUCK can these people get through high school never mind university and not understand what he was saying?)
While I agree that you need to start reading the memo with a rather closed mind in order to come away with an impression that Damore is sexist, I wish that he wasn't so enamored with the Big Five model of personality. Otherwise, it's worth reading, especially for gems like this: "Discriminating just to increase the representation of women in tech is as misguided and biased as mandating increases for women’s representation in the homeless, work-related and violent deaths, prisons, and school dropouts." That's pure gold, IMO.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#251

Post by Billie from Ockham » Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:20 am

jet_lagg wrote:
Billie from Ockham wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:57 pm
Steersman wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:18 pm
[lamentations that people are not actually machine-readable arrays of data]
I mean, seriously. Have you ever met a person (face-to-face) for the first time and come away from the encounter thinking "I really would have gotten to know that guy/gal better if one or both of us had some 8x12 glossies in hand"?
You do know who you're talking to, right?
I forgot for a moment (or had too much hope that things may have changed in the last six months).

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#252

Post by InfraRedBucket » Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:25 am

Billie from Ockham wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:18 am
John D wrote: Not that Tucker Carlson is a saint or anything... but he has the best Damore interview today.

For all I know, it really was the best interview, but if that counts as even a good interview, then journalism is truly dead.

Carlson's first question asked for Damore's opinion on why Google vilified him after he left ... something that Damore could only guess.
Likewise, Carlson's third question (which was to the lawyer) asked for an opinion on why Google thinks they can get away with things.
The last two questions asked for Damore's guess on whether all this will affect his future employment prospects.

Carlson's only good question was the second, when he asked the lawyer whether the alleged activities are illegal.

When you add in how Carlson usually turns any accusation against a company into a "let the market sort it out" (but not here), it was not worth the time to watch, IMO.
Damore's choice of lawyer will no doubt fight his corner but is hardly going to endear him to the left. As if he cares..
Harmeet Dhillon (born October 2, 1968) is an American lawyer and Republican party official. She is the former vice chairman of the California Republican Party, and the National Committeewoman of the Republican National Committee for California.[8][9] She owns a law practice called Dhillon Law Group Inc.[10]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmeet_Dhillon

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#253

Post by Tigzy » Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:46 am

I see Stan Lee has joined the ranks of those males (ugh just ugh) who've been accused of sexual misconduct. I think this tweet sums it up the best:

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#254

Post by VickyCaramel » Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:50 am

Bhurzum wrote:
VickyCaramel wrote: There are two kinds of skeptics... those who are chasing the 'debunk' so they can cross it of their list, they seem to think this makes them smarter than everyone else, yet they sound idiotic when they are dismissive of mysteries they can't solve. And there are those that enjoy the mystery. Obviously there is a spectrum but I am on the Fortean end and enjoy debunking the debunkers just as much as I enjoy debunking conspiracy theorists.
I think the only thing I fall foul of is the "life elsewhere in the universe" question. I mean, if we're talking about statistical probability, I think it's incredibly foolish to deny the possibility of wee green men. Don't get me wrong, I don't believe the crazy stuff (men in black, abductions, lizard overlords etc) but I'm certainly open to the notion of life (in some form or other) beyond planet Earth. I also love the various schools of thought on the subject and really enjoy listening to them thrash it out.

Oh, and the "panspermia" proposition intrigues me but the mere mention of it only sets off the Carrier alarms.

https://i.imgur.com/HkPOzEH.jpg?1
It's not that, I think you got the wrong end of the stick.

As an example, I found out Mykeru had done a load of reading into the Dyatlov Pass Incident so I asked him what he thought. He reached the "conclusion" that the hikers fled the tent because they thought there was an avalanche. It seemed to me that for him this was 'case closed'.
Mykeru is himself a fairly experienced hiker, so I would think he would know that these very experienced hikers would at the very least know the basics of their environment. These hikers would have known that this mountain was too shallow for an avalanche, and if they weren't sure they could find out by digging down into the snow, which is something they did when they pitched their tent. They also would have known to transverse the mountain in the case of avalanche, not run down it. There other things which don't fit, essentially the avalanche explanation is a very poor explanation, there are better ones without having to resort to monsters, aliens or conspiracies involving nuclear tests and the KGB.

The Dyatlov Pass Incident is a mystery, and I am content with that... not content enough that I won't keep revisiting it.

As another example, the Loch Ness Monster is not something I have ever taken very seriously, especially the plesiosaur explanation which has been predominant for decades which is totally unfeasible. However, there have been videos of other 'lake serpents' in Canada and Norway in the last few years. So I decided to poke my nose into this subject.
To cut a long story short, back in the 1950s it was suggested that Nessie might be some kind of giant eel but this was quickly dismissed. It turns out that eels are an under studied animal and we don't actually know that much about them. They undergo different distinct stages of development, in the adolescent stage they do nothing but kill, eat and grow. I found a biologist who proposed that an eel could get stuck in this development stage and just keep growing, similar to Kallmann syndrome. This could explain tales of sea serpents and lake serpents reported around the world -- it is certainly interesting that the word 'serpent' is used for these creatures in several different languages from Northern Europe to South America. I'm no biologist and not in a position to investigate but it's a hypothesis which is worth keeping an eye on.

Debunking a conspiracy theory is one thing, solving a genuine mystery is another. Saying that weather balloons are more likely than aliens from outer space is not and end to the matter (although i don't do UFOs), i think if you drop the mic and walk off stage at this point, then you are just in it to be a smart-arse.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#255

Post by VickyCaramel » Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:15 am

Tigzy wrote:
Kirbmarc wrote: Charles Fort's biggest weakness was accepting tall tales and eyewitness testimony as evidence without any form of screening, and to consider all testimonies and stories as independent and so as corroborating each other, when quite often this is not the case.
Actually, most of the data Fort collected came from the respectable scientific publications of the time. He was curious as to why certain phenomena - such as lights and glows spotted on the surface of the moon, as occasionally recorded in astronomical journals - remained steadfastly ignored by the wider scientific community. He determined that such phenomena - data - didn't fit prevailing scientific orthodoxy, and so was 'damned'. Hence, his Book of The Damned.

He may have been wrong in this - but it is ingenuous to say he only accepted 'tall tales and eyewitness testimony'. Also, to suggest he would accept them as 'evidence' is also incorrect - evidence of what, exactly, other than that sometimes, inconvenient data is overlooked? Fort was no swivel-eyed believer in any old shite, simply because he had some disdain for the prevailing attitudes of the scientific establishment. His agnosticism went both ways. After all, one does not have to be alt-right to be sceptical of the tenets of the social justice movement, right? (and vice-versa, of course)

Another thing to remember is that Fort was a massive pisstaker. So this:
Ultimately Charles Fort was a crank who defended his belief in crank-y ideas with "you can't prove for certain that everything I'm saying it's wrong, so I must be somewhat right", not unlike many other woo-meisters or religious thinkers.
Isn't quite right, either. He never took his own wild speculations all that seriously, and occasionally expressed some exasperation at how his pal Theodore Dreiser - who had a noted mystical bent - would lap them up. Basically, Fort was one of those people who was into trolling before trolling was a thing, so - yeah.
This.
Besides, Forteans are not Charles Fort. Most forteans I know would be closer to collecting these curiosities rather than dismissing them. A group of people describing a coyote as humanoid when the footage obviously shows a coyote is just as interesting, if not more-so than yet more stories of a wolfman on the prowl. Urban legends are interesting as urban legends... especially when you hear the local kids repeating it years after you invented it.

When I was in my teens, I would go to these reportedly haunted graveyards, at midnight and do whatever the legend said you shouldn't do. Sometimes alcohol was involved, and often the gullible fool who believed the legend and dared you to do it in the first place would be shitting themself. How can you take this seriously?

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#256

Post by Matt Cavanaugh » Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:20 am

Bhurzum wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:22 am
mordacious1 wrote: I've got a mega-boner for Kristen Schaal....

I understand that she's not conventionally beautiful (whatever that actually means) but there's something about her that gives me a twitcher. It wouldn't be so bad but she's become quite popular recently and it pops up everywhere.
FTFY

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#257

Post by deLurch » Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:25 am

VickyCaramel wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:00 am
There are two kinds of skeptics... those who are chasing the 'debunk' so they can cross it of their list, they seem to think this makes them smarter than everyone else, yet they sound idiotic when they are dismissive of mysteries they can't solve. And there are those that enjoy the mystery. Obviously there is a spectrum but I am on the Fortean end and enjoy debunking the debunkers just as much as I enjoy debunking conspiracy theorists.
It is official. Vicky had declared herself to be on the spectrum. ;)

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#258

Post by Shatterface » Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:28 am

MarcusAu wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:15 am
VickyCaramel wrote: There are two kinds of skeptics... those who are chasing the 'debunk' so they can cross it of their list, they seem to think this makes them smarter than everyone else, yet they sound idiotic when they are dismissive of mysteries they can't solve. And there are those that enjoy the mystery. Obviously there is a spectrum but I am on the Fortean end and enjoy debunking the debunkers just as much as I enjoy debunking conspiracy theorists.
If the Forteans in general are anything like those that run the 'Fortean Times' magazine - they at least have a sense of humour about their activities.

I'm reminded of Dave Langford's great work (or hoax if you prefer) - which was latter referenced by Whitley Strieber.

http://ansible.uk/books/account.html
Anyone remember the 1970's documentary Alternative 3? It alleged that the Earth was due to die horribly due to some ecological disaster or other and that the 'brain drain' was actually a cover up of a conspiracy to colonise the slightly less-fucked planet Mars.

It was actually a hoax intended as an April 1st joke that was delayed a few days for some reason and a lot of people still believe it was true even though the 'witnesses' included Shane Rimmer (best known as a voice actor in Gerry Anderson's Thunderbirds) and Richard Marner (later to find fame as General Von Strohm in Allo Allo).

I've seen references to it's claims in supposedly serious conspiracy books.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#259

Post by Matt Cavanaugh » Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:36 am

deLurch wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:23 am
mordacious1 wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:10 pm
I don’t know what it is about J. Lawrence’s face? I just don’t find it attractive. It’s the eyes I think. The rest of her body is stunning, but meh on the face. I guess the Harvey Weinstein’s of the world and I have different tastes.
I agree with you. But some people still go really nuts for her. I am actually completely turned off by Juliette Lewis whom others go gonzo for.
Juliette Lewis is a lightbulb-head.

Jennifer is a goddess, you twats.

I have a theory that men tend to have a large amount of sexual attraction towards the body & face types of their first initial sexual experiences during the formative teenage years that initializes what they find attractive carrying forward into adulthood.
That was Jenny Agutter for me.
This may also help explain why some men really dig fat chicks.
I sure hope they don't do a remake of LOGAN'S RUN starring Lindy West. Maybe LOGAN'S SLOW JOG

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#260

Post by Billie from Ockham » Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:52 am

Matt Cavanaugh wrote:
deLurch wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:23 am
I have a theory that men tend to have a large amount of sexual attraction towards the body & face types of their first initial sexual experiences during the formative teenage years that initializes what they find attractive carrying forward into adulthood.
That was Jenny Agutter for me.
This may also help explain why some men really dig fat chicks.
I sure hope they don't do a remake of LOGAN'S RUN starring Lindy West. Maybe LOGAN'S SLOW JOG
While I agree about Jenny Agutter (which has come up before, IIRC), the remake with Lindy West that I dread the most would probably be called "Waddle-about."

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#261

Post by MarcusAu » Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:52 am

Logan's Wibbley Wobbley Walk ?

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#262

Post by Billie from Ockham » Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:52 am

Wow. A quote-Bork.

(Out of curiosity, does the about term refer to the SCOTUS nominee?)

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#263

Post by MarcusAu » Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:54 am

I'm sure that has at least a half :nin:

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#264

Post by Matt Cavanaugh » Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:14 am

VickyCaramel wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:50 am
Bhurzum wrote:
VickyCaramel wrote:
As an example, I found out Mykeru had done a load of reading into the Dyatlov Pass Incident so I asked him what he thought. He reached the "conclusion" that the hikers fled the tent because they thought there was an avalanche. It seemed to me that for him this was 'case closed'.
Mykeru is himself a fairly experienced hiker, so I would think he would know that these very experienced hikers would at the very least know the basics of their environment. These hikers would have known that this mountain was too shallow for an avalanche, and if they weren't sure they could find out by digging down into the snow, which is something they did when they pitched their tent. They also would have known to transverse the mountain in the case of avalanche, not run down it. There other things which don't fit, essentially the avalanche explanation is a very poor explanation, there are better ones without having to resort to monsters, aliens or conspiracies involving nuclear tests and the KGB.

The Dyatlov Pass Incident is a mystery, and I am content with that... not content enough that I won't keep revisiting it.
The trouble with exploring these cases online is, so much gets reported as 'fact' when it's really B.S. or misrepresented.

I was fascinated by Dyatlov Pass when it I first encountered it here, and recently had another look with a friend I like to discuss disappearances & assorted 'mysteries' with. I'm back to there was a minor snow slide, but they thought there'd been an avalanche. Everything else following that point makes perfect sense. The presence of Infrasound is plausible, but would not be sufficient to compel them to flee the tent site. In any case, the wind would have been 'maddening' all on its own.

Something I noticed in revisiting and exploring deeper: the Dyatlov crew, despite being "experienced hikers", made a string of mistakes, both on this trip and previous ones, the consequences of which they'd dodged. This is known as "Bad Decision : Good Result" (something that came up when me & my sleuth friend were looking at the Hot Shots' deaths in the Yarnell Fire.) The Dyatlov crew's mistakes over the final two days also compounded, something seen in the Donner Party.

Some of the Dyatlov mistakes:
- on a previous trip, one of the women was bitten by a poisonous snake
- their clothes apparently often got burned when starting fires
- the tent and stove were custom jobs that sometimes proved problematic
- Dyatlov himself seemed a bit domineering and OCD, and some of his protocols rankled others. There's also indications of other inter-personal friction

On the fatal trip, they:
- forgot to pack a few key items
- ran out of money
- had one member briefly detained by police for panhandling to raise some money
- missed some meals due to no money
- missed or nearly missed some transportation connections because they were dicking around
- had to arrange for improvised & less than-ideal transportation that wore them out physically
- arrived at a staging area to find accommodations barely adequate
- encountered increasingly bad weather the next to last day, slowing their progress
- continued with their timeline despite the delays
- took a wrong turn and weren't even supposed to be on that ridge
- apparently decided to camp on the ridge to avoid backtracking and losing more time
- apparently were too tired to assemble the wonky stove

tl;dr: the Dyatlov hikers had pushed beyond the envelope without realizing it. They were exhausted, frustrated, likely very distracted by the howling wind and cold, then surprised and confused by the presumed avalanche. Their tent was their lifeline --they had no Plan B. Never put yourself into a life-or-death situation just for fun.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#265

Post by Matt Cavanaugh » Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:20 am

Billie from Ockham wrote: While I agree about Jenny Agutter (which has come up before, IIRC)
Speaking for myself as an Agutterophile, it always comes up.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#266

Post by Matt Cavanaugh » Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:24 am

I think my real 'sexual crystallization' was on Juliette Mills, which has also come up before. I fixated on her via The Nanny and the Professor.

I sure feel bad for anyone who fixated via MRS DOUBTFIRE.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#267

Post by VickyCaramel » Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:08 am

Matt Cavanaugh wrote: The trouble with exploring these cases online is, so much gets reported as 'fact' when it's really B.S. or misrepresented.

I was fascinated by Dyatlov Pass when it I first encountered it here, and recently had another look with a friend I like to discuss disappearances & assorted 'mysteries' with. I'm back to there was a minor snow slide, but they thought there'd been an avalanche. Everything else following that point makes perfect sense. The presence of Infrasound is plausible, but would not be sufficient to compel them to flee the tent site. In any case, the wind would have been 'maddening' all on its own.

Something I noticed in revisiting and exploring deeper: the Dyatlov crew, despite being "experienced hikers", made a string of mistakes, both on this trip and previous ones, the consequences of which they'd dodged. This is known as "Bad Decision : Good Result" (something that came up when me & my sleuth friend were looking at the Hot Shots' deaths in the Yarnell Fire.) The Dyatlov crew's mistakes over the final two days also compounded, something seen in the Donner Party.

Some of the Dyatlov mistakes:
- on a previous trip, one of the women was bitten by a poisonous snake
- their clothes apparently often got burned when starting fires
- the tent and stove were custom jobs that sometimes proved problematic
- Dyatlov himself seemed a bit domineering and OCD, and some of his protocols rankled others. There's also indications of other inter-personal friction

On the fatal trip, they:
- forgot to pack a few key items
- ran out of money
- had one member briefly detained by police for panhandling to raise some money
- missed some meals due to no money
- missed or nearly missed some transportation connections because they were dicking around
- had to arrange for improvised & less than-ideal transportation that wore them out physically
- arrived at a staging area to find accommodations barely adequate
- encountered increasingly bad weather the next to last day, slowing their progress
- continued with their timeline despite the delays
- took a wrong turn and weren't even supposed to be on that ridge
- apparently decided to camp on the ridge to avoid backtracking and losing more time
- apparently were too tired to assemble the wonky stove

tl;dr: the Dyatlov hikers had pushed beyond the envelope without realizing it. They were exhausted, frustrated, likely very distracted by the howling wind and cold, then surprised and confused by the presumed avalanche. Their tent was their lifeline --they had no Plan B. Never put yourself into a life-or-death situation just for fun.
I agree, there is a lot which is misreported, lost of fantasy gets mixed into the "facts".

There are a few assumptions in your work which are a little off. Stoves are expensive, it is not a mistake to make one, people still do. This isn't a mistake although it does seem the one they had is rather difficult to assemble. This is also soviet Russia, the 1950s, a totally different culture. And I don't think I would want to be on a hiking trip with people who didn't lark about. This doesn't mean they couldn't make stupid fatal mistakes as even the most serious hiker can, but shouldn't paint them as incompetent because they didn't approach this like an Everest expedition.
You include the assumption that they were "too tired" to assemble the stove, however it as a wood burning stove and they hadn't taken any wood up the mountain with them. It would be a better assumption to say they didn't intent to camp on the mountain but instead intended to cross it. But thats still an assumption. I see no reason to assume that they took a wrong turn and didn't intend to be on the mountain, in fact this is the crux of the mystery -- why did they leave the wood and start up the mountain?

Anyway, we are not going to solve it here. It is a mystery and there is no simple explanation... at least not an obvious one.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#268

Post by Matt Cavanaugh » Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:11 am

Kristen Schaal ain't got nothing on this hottie:

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#269

Post by Phil_Giordana_FCD » Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:22 am

What the fuck am I doing here?

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#270

Post by Steersman » Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:43 am

screwtape wrote: Steer
screwtape wrote:
Steersman wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:39 pm
<snip>

But IF there were two or more of us - maybe over a couple of beers discussing the problematic aspects of stereotypes; hardly a "first-time" scenario - THEN being able to put those "8x12s" on the table might well help to clarify the nitty-gritty aspects of comparing groups and individuals.
Is this inflation? Photographs are generally 10x8 (inches, that is) and the next size up in ultra-large format cameras is 11x14. I know - I caught the bug.
Would you believe a misfiring memory? Faulty error-correction codes? :-)

I was going for a reference to Alice's Restaurant but I'd forgotten some of the specifics:
They took twenty seven eight-by-ten colour glossy photographs with circles
And arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explaining what each
One was to be used as evidence against us. ...

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#271

Post by free thoughtpolice » Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:46 am

Anyway, we are not going to solve it here. It is a mystery and there is no simple explanation... at least not an obvious one.
It was without a doubt a bigfoot that scared them. Did they have bacon with them?

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#272

Post by Steersman » Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:47 am

jet_lagg wrote:
Billie from Ockham wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:57 pm
Steersman wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:18 pm
[lamentations that people are not actually machine-readable arrays of data]
I mean, seriously. Have you ever met a person (face-to-face) for the first time and come away from the encounter thinking "I really would have gotten to know that guy/gal better if one or both of us had some 8x12 glossies in hand"?
You do know who you're talking to, right?
:-) "When the only tool you have is a hammer ...", Chapter 011010001...101

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#273

Post by Matt Cavanaugh » Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:54 am

VickyCaramel wrote: I agree, there is a lot which is misreported, lost of fantasy gets mixed into the "facts".

There are a few assumptions in your work which are a little off. Stoves are expensive, it is not a mistake to make one, people still do. This isn't a mistake although it does seem the one they had is rather difficult to assemble. This is also soviet Russia, the 1950s, a totally different culture. And I don't think I would want to be on a hiking trip with people who didn't lark about. This doesn't mean they couldn't make stupid fatal mistakes as even the most serious hiker can, but shouldn't paint them as incompetent because they didn't approach this like an Everest expedition.
You include the assumption that they were "too tired" to assemble the stove, however it as a wood burning stove and they hadn't taken any wood up the mountain with them. It would be a better assumption to say they didn't intent to camp on the mountain but instead intended to cross it. But thats still an assumption. I see no reason to assume that they took a wrong turn and didn't intend to be on the mountain, in fact this is the crux of the mystery -- why did they leave the wood and start up the mountain?

Some but not all were 'mistakes', but all were compounding factors that accreted over the course of the trip and especially the last two days.

The tent was army surplus, made of two tents sewn together, with the extra sides repurposed as interior partitions. The stove was homemade. Neither could've been bought. My friend couldn't understand why they didn't have sleeping bags. I told her even in East Germany in the 80's you still couldn't get stuff like that. USSR 1959, forget it. That being said, both the tent and stove were heavy and impacted their speed and endurance.

I haven't been able to discover whether they normally used the stove each night, but it seems reasonable to assume. Why port the stove without wood, unless you planned on reaching a wood source? Not a fatal mistake in itself, but a compounding factor, and also indication that they were steadily deviating off plan.

My understanding is they headed out that morning in the wrong direction, and in steadily worsening weather. They did not adjust. If you're halfway to sundown, but not halfway to your destination, the wise thing is to turn around. (Presuming the shelter of the woods offered significant advantages.) They pressed on. I suspect the Abilene Paradox was at play.

Yes, young people especially will be larking on any trip. But they did place themselves in an environment, and then a specific situation, where a single mistake could be fatal. I don't think they were fully cognizant of that. Some of that is attributable to youthful sense of invincibility, but some has to be from the Soviet's promotion of these 'tourism' clubs. I don't consider them 'incompetent', rather slightly over-confident in their considerable competency, not sufficiently risk-averse, and at the tail end of a series of minor errors and set-backs, which forged a path they continued to follow instead of re-setting. Like the Donner Party, they'd essentially used up all their wiggle room along the way and arrived at a place & time where a single random event could not be managed.

Never use your emergency reserves unless it's an emergency.
Anyway, we are not going to solve it here. It is a mystery and there is no simple explanation... at least not an obvious one.
Get something that leads them to believe they urgently needed to vacate the hill, and the rest is no mystery. We'll never know for sure what that something was, but it's surely mundane.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#274

Post by jet_lagg » Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:01 pm

How would a person come to believe an avalanche was imminent (and so flee their tent)? I can't think of anything obvious and googling only reveals what to do in the seconds when you see/feel the fracture line appear and can move laterally quickly enough to get out of the path. The time frame you have to act in appears to be seconds, which could explain cutting through the tent and running in your underwear (again, assuming they somehow sensed the avalanche from inside the tent) but not why they ran downhill. Maybe conventional wisdom was different then, but even that leaves the question of why they'd continue to flee long after the point it would have become clear the danger had passed or was never there to begin with.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#275

Post by John D » Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:11 pm

I think that it was this scene from Lost In Space this deeply affected my sexuality.
Penny-Robinson-Lost-in-Space.jpg
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#276

Post by Matt Cavanaugh » Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:18 pm

What TV show affected this whack-job's sexuality?
… an objectified or commodified view of sex within heteronormative patriarchal courtship is problematic because it makes men into the ones pursuing The Sex from its gatekeepers, women. This dynamic leads to countless unhealthy and abusive behaviors and is one of the pillars of rape culture.

Yet these legends also express an underlying critique of modern foodways, laying the blame on women for not properly performing their domestic duties, and fragmenting the collapse of the nuclear family. I would argue that much of the implicit norm, or the “should,” around outsourcing food prep is the same as the norms surrounding outsourcing sex.... If the woman is not providing what she “should” at home, then clearly she’s at fault when the man goes elsewhere, whether it’s for burgers or boobs.
[….]
But getting your food from outside the home isn’t inherently a bad thing. Neither is putting your kid in childcare. Nor is either buying or providing sex work. That these interactions can be commodified, and that these intimate human needs can be met outside the home, is just one more arrangement people make in their ever-inventive ways.
[….]
All of these interactions are fueled by emotional labor, which I’ve also blogged about as facets of domestic task-management and kin-keeping. Acknowledging this work as precisely that – work – is an important stop on the feminist agenda.
[….]
Viewing sex as an act done by A to B can, again, be a useful way of going about things, or it can detract from the collaborative, meandering, sensual exploration that some people crave.
I tend to think of sex in non-sex-work relationships as being akin to having a conversation with a friend.
[….]
… sex (like eating pizza) [is] collaborative, based on hunger/desire rather than scripted role, and based on pleasure rather than conquest….
[….]
So, sometimes we commodify intimacy, and when we’re diligent about communication and consent, it can work out. I mean, as much as any interaction within a capitalist and patriarchal society can work out in non-exploitative ways.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/foxyfolklo ... hats-okay/

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#277

Post by jet_lagg » Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:26 pm

John D wrote: I think that it was this scene from Lost In Space this deeply affected my sexuality.
Penny-Robinson-Lost-in-Space.jpg
It was a different Penny Robinson for me. I have to say I like the net though.

https://s16.postimg.org/58g1sqqfp/Lacey ... 2d86ec.jpg

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#278

Post by shoutinghorse » Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:30 pm

Global warming my arse! .. :snooty:


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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#279

Post by Shatterface » Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:41 pm

Matt Cavanaugh wrote: What TV show affected this whack-job's sexuality?
… an objectified or commodified view of sex within heteronormative patriarchal courtship is problematic because it makes men into the ones pursuing The Sex from its gatekeepers, women. This dynamic leads to countless unhealthy and abusive behaviors and is one of the pillars of rape culture.
Women being the 'gatekeepers' of sex must come as a surprise to gay men.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#280

Post by screwtape » Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:47 pm

deLurch wrote:
VickyCaramel wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:00 am
There are two kinds of skeptics... those who are chasing the 'debunk' so they can cross it of their list, they seem to think this makes them smarter than everyone else, yet they sound idiotic when they are dismissive of mysteries they can't solve. And there are those that enjoy the mystery. Obviously there is a spectrum but I am on the Fortean end and enjoy debunking the debunkers just as much as I enjoy debunking conspiracy theorists.
It is official. Vicky had declared herself to be on the spectrum. ;)
And this is bad? How?

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#281

Post by Matt Cavanaugh » Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:49 pm

jet_lagg wrote: How would a person come to believe an avalanche was imminent (and so flee their tent)? I can't think of anything obvious and googling only reveals what to do in the seconds when you see/feel the fracture line appear and can move laterally quickly enough to get out of the path. The time frame you have to act in appears to be seconds, which could explain cutting through the tent and running in your underwear (again, assuming they somehow sensed the avalanche from inside the tent) but not why they ran downhill. Maybe conventional wisdom was different then, but even that leaves the question of why they'd continue to flee long after the point it would have become clear the danger had passed or was never there to begin with.
One of Mykeru's links (now misplaced) indicated that how they dug out a spot for the tent could've undermined the snow bank on the grade, leading to a slab of the hard upper crust of snow to slide down. They might then fear subsequent avalanches. If this is indeed what happened, I believe the unexpected nature of it adversely affected their decision-making. And if you're suddenly crushed in a dark, flattened tent, you're not orientated very well.

It's all speculative, but beyond the fear of avalanche, the possible motivating factors rapidly turn implausible, from infrasound-induced madness to weapons testing, to escaped gulag prisoners, to yeti.

Apparently, the tent was collapsed laterally. Two of the party were slightly better dressed. Had they been the ones by the door, they could have then cut out the others trapped by the partitions in the collapsed tent. And it turns out the forensics, indicating the cuts came from the inside, is not solid. Three of the party had fancy Finnish knives; two of the knives were found inside the tent, still in the pockets of their owner's snow smocks. The third was found on the body of the older guy, Semen (yes that was his name), and he was also one of better dressed ones.

Once they'd fled the tent and proceeded downhill, they were fucked. Hell, once they'd shredded their tent, they were probably fucked. They needed to find a way to stay warm. The little fire didn't work -- two froze to death beside it -- and three attempted to regain the tent. Apparently the snow shelter Semen built for him and the remaining three was not considered sufficient. They'd cached some supplies in the woods that morning, and it seems likely they were searching for that when they fell into the ravine. Semen probably lasted the longest, as he scavenged clothing off the woman who'd bashed her head straight onto a rock.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#282

Post by free thoughtpolice » Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:49 pm

Matt Cavanaugh wrote: What TV show affected this whack-job's sexuality?
… an objectified or commodified view of sex within heteronormative patriarchal courtship is problematic because it makes men into the ones pursuing The Sex from its gatekeepers, women. This dynamic leads to countless unhealthy and abusive behaviors and is one of the pillars of rape culture.

Yet these legends also express an underlying critique of modern foodways, laying the blame on women for not properly performing their domestic duties, and fragmenting the collapse of the nuclear family. I would argue that much of the implicit norm, or the “should,” around outsourcing food prep is the same as the norms surrounding outsourcing sex.... If the woman is not providing what she “should” at home, then clearly she’s at fault when the man goes elsewhere, whether it’s for burgers or boobs.
[….]
But getting your food from outside the home isn’t inherently a bad thing. Neither is putting your kid in childcare. Nor is either buying or providing sex work. That these interactions can be commodified, and that these intimate human needs can be met outside the home, is just one more arrangement people make in their ever-inventive ways.
[….]
All of these interactions are fueled by emotional labor, which I’ve also blogged about as facets of domestic task-management and kin-keeping. Acknowledging this work as precisely that – work – is an important stop on the feminist agenda.
[….]
Viewing sex as an act done by A to B can, again, be a useful way of going about things, or it can detract from the collaborative, meandering, sensual exploration that some people crave.
I tend to think of sex in non-sex-work relationships as being akin to having a conversation with a friend.
[….]
… sex (like eating pizza) [is] collaborative, based on hunger/desire rather than scripted role, and based on pleasure rather than conquest….
[….]
So, sometimes we commodify intimacy, and when we’re diligent about communication and consent, it can work out. I mean, as much as any interaction within a capitalist and patriarchal society can work out in non-exploitative ways.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/foxyfolklo ... hats-okay/
Foxy and I have come to the conclusion that women actually run The Patriarchy. :P

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#283

Post by screwtape » Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:50 pm

Steersman wrote:
screwtape wrote: Steer
screwtape wrote:
Steersman wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:39 pm
<snip>

But IF there were two or more of us - maybe over a couple of beers discussing the problematic aspects of stereotypes; hardly a "first-time" scenario - THEN being able to put those "8x12s" on the table might well help to clarify the nitty-gritty aspects of comparing groups and individuals.
Is this inflation? Photographs are generally 10x8 (inches, that is) and the next size up in ultra-large format cameras is 11x14. I know - I caught the bug.
Would you believe a misfiring memory? Faulty error-correction codes? :-)

I was going for a reference to Alice's Restaurant but I'd forgotten some of the specifics:
They took twenty seven eight-by-ten colour glossy photographs with circles
And arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explaining what each
One was to be used as evidence against us. ...
By Glub, if I've told you once I've told you a hundred times! Get it right or I nuke and pave your operating system!

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#284

Post by free thoughtpolice » Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:52 pm

Forgot the quote:
abear Carol Lynn • 14 days ago
The idea that The Patriarchy exists as an organization run by a cabal of men is in my opinion conspiracy theory nonsense. Certainly there are groups of people that hold to "patriarchy ideology", such as conservative religious organizations, and as the title to Jeana's post declares there are women that are "complicit" in their work.
For example, Linda Sarsour, muslim activist has marketed herself as a feminist recently, even taking part in organizing a large women's march.
Recently, allegations have surfaced that she covered up the sexual harassment of one of her employees during her tenure at the Arab American Association.
http://www.washingtonexamin...
Why is it that the institutions that have the sort of patriarchal ideals that are being regarded as a outmoded and primitive tend to be supported by more women than men? Take a look at the churches. They tend to have a higher membership of women than men, and a lot of the men that show up for services have been dragged there by their wives.
It would seem to me that women are as engaged in running the patriarchy as men, just behind the scenes.
I suspect that The Patriarchy may be secretly run by The Matriarchy.


•Edit•Reply•Share ›

Avatar
Raging Bee abear • 4 hours ago
The idea that The Patriarchy exists as an organization run by a cabal of men is in my opinion conspiracy theory nonsense.

Yeah, that's why we DON'T really think "The Patriarchy exists as an organization run by a cabal of men."


•Reply•Share ›
Avatar
abear Raging Bee • 2 hours ago
So we're in agreement Raging BS, the Patriarchy is run by women.


•Edit•Reply•Share ›
Avatar
abear abear • 42 minutes ago
The true head of The Patriarchy and Donald Trump's boss:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wi...


•Edit•Reply•Share ›
Avatar
Jeana Jorgensen Mod abear • 11 days ago
You just explained the point of my post: that women who buy into patriarchal ideas walk a dangerous line and are never truly safe, but if they manage to perform the right balance the rewards are stellar (and probably only temporary, same as Milo Y allying himself with white supremacists who will only temporarily tolerate him).


•Reply•Share ›

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#285

Post by screwtape » Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:52 pm

Matt Cavanaugh wrote:
Billie from Ockham wrote: While I agree about Jenny Agutter (which has come up before, IIRC)
Speaking for myself as an Agutterophile, it always comes up.
Please, no Agutteration - I have a shepherd's pie to cook and it tastes funny after I've been thinking about Jenny. The cheese topping looks a bit glazed too. Can't imagine why.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#286

Post by mike150160 » Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:15 pm

Ah Jenny!! Even in the Railway Children she took her drawers off.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#287

Post by Bhurzum » Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:39 pm

Movie recommendation: The shape of water

Latest offering from Guillermo del Toro, a strange but very enjoyable love story about a mute woman and a "creature from the black lagoon" type beastie held captive in a US research facility. Too strange to fully describe and I certainly don't want to give away any spoilers, it's well worth a watch - you just need to trust me.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt5580390/

https://img.wennermedia.com/article-lea ... 446288.jpg

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#288

Post by Kirbmarc » Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:47 pm

So, in other news, Steven Pinker of all people has been smeared as an alt-right fan:
Who's the guy who creatively edited Pinker's talk to make it look like he supported the alt-right? Why, no one other than Sacha "Seminal Work" Saeen, a known liar who repeatedly tried to smear Sam Harris by quoting him selectively/pretending not to understand what he's writing.
For those of you who don't known Sacha, he's best buddies with Dan Arel ('nuff said), who praised his "seminal work".

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#289

Post by feathers » Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:49 pm

I've just watched Lifeforce and it temporarily affected my sexuality.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/1a/62/15 ... f5dfee.jpg

Mathilda May is also its only redeeming value, alas.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#290

Post by BoxNDox » Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:53 pm

Matt Cavanaugh wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:29 pm
Billie from Ockham wrote: What a lot of people don't seem to understand is that shitlords like Jon Haidt and Jordan Peterson are just using the research on the sex differences in the negative effects of social media to prevent girls from getting a smart-phone. Even more: it's a smoke-screen to stop you from realizing that both smart-phones and every well-known form of social media was invented by a person with a penis.
Hedy Lamarr invented the smart phone. It is known.
And Shirley Jackson helped.

(Jackson is often given credit for inventing the touch tone phone, or conducting the research that led to it, or some such. The fact is that to the extent the touch tone phone has an inventor, it's a guy named Leo Schenker, who pulled together ideas from Mencham, West, and others and published the resulting design in the BSTJ in January 1960. Jackson didn't graduate from high school until 1964.

The design in that paper is remarkably close to what ended up getting produced; the main difference is they dropped the low end 1094 hz Group B frequency and added 1633 hz at the high end, adding additional group separation but requiring additional bandwidth.)

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#291

Post by Steersman » Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:17 pm

VickyCaramel wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:59 pm
Steersman wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:27 pm
<snip>
And why do you think "the alt-right is wrong even if those differences exist"? Maybe because, as I've argued, many on the alt-right think that those differences apply to ALL members of the different races? That, for instance, all whites are more intelligent than all blacks?
I was trying to answer this when the site crashed.
Hope you didn't lose any of what you had written - can be extremely frustrating when that happens, for one reason or another.

However, while you've apparently "bought into race realism", I'm not entirely sure you've answered the question "why the alt-right is wrong", particularly related to my surmise. Of maybe some related interest or as a point of reference, the Wikipedia article on the topic which, somewhat uncharacteristically for them, seems off-kilter in disputing the concept of races and the idea that there can be differences, in general, between them:
Scientific racism (sometimes race realism, human biodiversity, race biology or racial biology is the pseudoscientific belief that empirical evidence exists to support or justify racism (racial discrimination), racial inferiority, or racial superiority; alternatively, it is the practice of classifying individuals of different phenotypes or genotype into discrete races. Historically it received credence in the scientific community, but is no longer considered scientific.
While discrimination is, generally, untenable, differences between groups, on average, seems pretty much of a slam dunk. The problem though seems to arise in sloppy use of language as, for example, in the interview of Damore & his lawyer by Tucker Carlson and by someone else in a second segment. While the interviewer in the latter case did eventually genuflect in the direction of averages - the crux of Damore's argument - he also had said earlier [@ about 9:13] "perhaps they [women] weren’t up to snuff with respect to the rigors of working in Silicon Valley at the upper echelons". Which seems kind of to allude to an argument that ALL women aren't "up to snuff" which is generally untenable, although it might be moot just what scenarios the interviewer had in mind with his "upper echelons".

But really kind of problematic comparing groups and individuals as the terms applicable to the first one generally aren't to the second one. For instance, while it is perfectly clear and entirely justified to say that woman A is taller or shorter than man B, it is more than a bit obscure to say, in referring to groups and as is frequently said, that men are taller than women: height is an attribute of individuals but not of groups. Conflating the two tends to cause no end of problems and unnecessary animosity.
VickyCaramel wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:59 pm
I'm not losing the argument against race realism because I bought into it some time in the early 1990s. Back in the early 90s, the British National Party had become an early adopter of the internet and you could even go have an argument with Nick Griffin in their chat room... which was your best option because the rest of them tended to be knuckle dragging, out-and-out Nazis. They were pushing the race realism then, throwing out crime figures, they were also saying that "THE" Jews controlled the banks, Hollywood and the media.... and the truth is they aren't wrong on any of these things.
Certainly more than some justification, as argued, for "buying into race realism", but saying it's not wrong to claim that "THE Jews controlled the banks etc." looks a bit iffy, kind of like a very questionable conspiracy theory. That, for instance, presuambly there are many Jews who are in "the banks, Hollywood and the media" is hardly justification for arguing or suggesting, apparently, that there's some sort of collusion taking place that is antithetical to the best interests of society in general. Seems rather akin to the "Patriarchy!!11!!" "theory", both of which are apparently cases of reification - like the "invisible hand" of Adam Smith. Many groups can give the appearance, and maybe even the effects, of communication and collusion, but frequently that's due more to simple self-interest as with Smith.
VickyCaramel wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:59 pm
Frankly, not much has changed. My experience is that rather than ex-army tattooed skinhead thugs, the foot soldiers (Comment section stormtroopers) of the Alt-Right tend to be 15 year old boys whose spelling is even worse. However they do know where to find all the race realism information and present it in the form of meme graphics. This is a rather effective tactic in so much as it helps them spread awareness of the 'problems'. But what hasn't changed is that the Far-Right still don't have any answers which are workable or palatable, unless you think, "We are just going to pay them to leave, we won't gas anyone, honestly we won't" is bankable.
"spreading awareness of the problems" seems half the battle, and well worth doing even if some of the solutions suggested may not be entirely "workable or palatable". But while I haven't delved too much into the specific platform planks of the Alt-Right, much less the of Far-Right cohort, I kind of think it depends on which "tribe" is deemed most problematic in any given situation. As mentioned before, you might check out the Wikipedia articles on the history of deportations, notably those of Muslims from Greece in 1923, and of Mexicans from the US in the 1930s, the latter being somewhat less credible or justified than the former.
VickyCaramel wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:59 pm
If you want to get ahead of the curve, you need to talk about how creating an ethnostate within the US is a fucking absurd idea. All this, "they can have California and we'll have Wyoming" bullshit is complete pie in the sky. These people are less numerous but no less ridiculous than the anarcho-capitalists and we are not going out of our way to confront them.

Frankly, the alt-right is still fringe and I can't see them playing any role on the future no matter how things play out.
The right with a fringe on top. :-) As the old joke has it, like the cat who had run away from the vet with a needle still stuck in its ear - a furry with a syringe on top ... :rimshot:

But agree about "absurd idea", though I think there's some justification for working with them - at least they recognize & promote the idea that there is a problem in the first place. Accentuate the positive and all that.
VickyCaramel wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:59 pm
Kirbmarc wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:45 pm
DrokkIt wrote:
Steersman wrote: <snip>
And why do you think "the alt-right is wrong even if those differences exist"? Maybe because, as I've argued, many on the alt-right think that those differences apply to ALL members of the different races? That, for instance, all whites are more intelligent than all blacks?
For my two penneth worth, I'd say they are wrong because they are (deliberately in many cases) conflating a scientific is with a moralistic ought.

You can demonstrate to me that group X are more intelligent than group Y. You cannot demonstrate to me that therefore X should have dominion over Y or avoid them altogether, especially if this dictate supersedes my own individual choice (i.e. "you are doing whiteness wrong by associating with black people).

In my view this is to do with the ideas and principles they espouse, and not with the pragmatic situation of immigration and cultural tension.
This. ....
You are still barking up the wrong tree. Their argument isn't that they should have dominion over another tribe, it is that they should be separate.
Their argument isn't that tribalism is a moral good, but that it is an inevitable fact that needs to be dealt with -- and that multiculturalism is pretty unnatural and is proven to fail no matter how strong your argument that it is a moral good. You would very quickly find yourself on the defensive if you try this route.
Question then is whether there's any justification to claim "multiculturalism is pretty unnatural". Just tarring all tribes with the same brush - saying that none of them "play well with others" - doesn't seem particularly tenable. Seems predicated on a rather superficial analysis - one that is only skin deep, so to speak.

However, to kind to reiterate a previous argument and to address Drokkit directly, I think it is obscure and fuzzy-thinking at best, and more likely a trap for the unwary and a pretext for those with an axe to grind, to say that "group X are more intelligent that group Y". Individual A can be more intelligent than individual B - and they may even come from different racial groups. But groups generally don't exhibit intelligence - that's an attribute of individuals, not groups. Better to emphasize that difference by saying of groups that the average intelligence of group A is higher or lower than that of group B - and the fact of that matter is that the difference in averages is generally very much less than that within any group - as Harris and many others have said repeatedly though, apparently, to little effect.

"Shoddy and inept application of words" and all that. :-)
VickyCaramel wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:59 pm
DrokkIt wrote: I think they also have an issue around what white *is and isn't*. It's very easy to look at a black dude and mate a categorical judgement about his race, but for a huge amount of people this isn't true.

Also yes re: naturalistic fallacy, loads of arguments from there. Reminds me of the "Black ways of knowing" bullshit about firing lightning form fingers.
This isn't an issue for them at all. They are quite prepared to say that they will give the benefit of the doubt to anyone who is in question.
If they had a colour chart and were only 'removing' the blackest of the black, it is win for them. If they remove only anyone who is easy to categorize then they have got 99% of what they want. (They can worry about the Quadroons further down the road).

The only damage you can do them with this line is to cause them infighting over when and where they will draw the line, but it isn't as if the hardcore Nazis are movers and shakers in the alt-Right.... i suspect many of them are just shitposters.
Sure seems highly problematic, at best, to be thinking that a person's skin colour, or any distinguishing attribute of any "race" for that matter, uniquely or categorically correlates with any particular set of values - good, bad, or indifferent. Presumably it is those values which are more likely to determine whether the corresponding cultures can "play well with others" or not.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#292

Post by screwtape » Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:24 pm

feathers wrote: I've just watched Lifeforce and it temporarily affected my sexuality.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/1a/62/15 ... f5dfee.jpg

Mathilda May is also its only redeeming value, alas.
Even so, she redeemed quite a bit. And then she, somehow, redeemed it again. And then the film finished. Oh, well.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#293

Post by MarcusAu » Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:40 pm

Aren't there already many virtual ethno-states within America (Hello Morris, Minnesota & Shivestown), as well as parts of Europe, Asia and Africa?

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#294

Post by Matt Cavanaugh » Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:43 pm

The concept, that the British could have a manned space program, categorizes LIFEFORCE as a comedy.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#295

Post by Bhurzum » Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:53 pm

Matt Cavanaugh wrote: The concept, that the British could have a manned space program, categorizes LIFEFORCE as a comedy.
"What's the fucking point in going to the moon? There's nothing to be gained in the way of olympic quality athletes or hot and spicy food. Plus, there's no bugger to hand it back to when we're done with it!" - Al Murray (as the Guv'nor)

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#296

Post by greylurker » Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:57 pm

Shatterface wrote:
MarcusAu wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:15 am
VickyCaramel wrote: There are two kinds of skeptics... those who are chasing the 'debunk' so they can cross it of their list, they seem to think this makes them smarter than everyone else, yet they sound idiotic when they are dismissive of mysteries they can't solve. And there are those that enjoy the mystery. Obviously there is a spectrum but I am on the Fortean end and enjoy debunking the debunkers just as much as I enjoy debunking conspiracy theorists.
If the Forteans in general are anything like those that run the 'Fortean Times' magazine - they at least have a sense of humour about their activities.

I'm reminded of Dave Langford's great work (or hoax if you prefer) - which was latter referenced by Whitley Strieber.

http://ansible.uk/books/account.html

Anyone remember the 1970's documentary Alternative 3? It alleged that the Earth was due to die horribly due to some ecological disaster or other and that the 'brain drain' was actually a cover up of a conspiracy to colonise the slightly less-fucked planet Mars.

It was actually a hoax intended as an April 1st joke that was delayed a few days for some reason and a lot of people still believe it was true even though the 'witnesses' included Shane Rimmer (best known as a voice actor in Gerry Anderson's Thunderbirds) and Richard Marner (later to find fame as General Von Strohm in Allo Allo).

I've seen references to it's claims in supposedly serious conspiracy books.
From the greylurker libris ultra dubious:

pranksters to the end.
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#297

Post by DrokkIt » Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:58 pm

VickyCaramel wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:10 pm
Keating wrote: For people who enjoy YouTube cringe:

It is about time somebody took Jim down a peg or two.

Yep. Some of his videos are funny but it's kinda easy to be nihilistic and cynical to the extent that he is... which is in itself cringey and apt to be mocked.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#298

Post by MarcusAu » Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:59 pm

Matt Cavanaugh wrote: The concept, that the British could have a manned space program, categorizes LIFEFORCE as a comedy.
Or speculative, best...

http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/ ... fspace.jpg

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#299

Post by Steersman » Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:01 pm

MarcusAu wrote: Aren't there already many virtual ethno-states within America (Hello Morris, Minnesota & Shivestown), as well as parts of Europe, Asia and Africa?
Maybe. Though many of them look more like ghettos, echo-chambers, "no-go zones":



The parts have to work together to qualify as a whole - which seems largely what States are all about - e pluribus unum and all that. :-)

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#300

Post by VickyCaramel » Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:09 pm

Steersman wrote:
VickyCaramel wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:59 pm
Steersman wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:27 pm
<snip>
And why do you think "the alt-right is wrong even if those differences exist"? Maybe because, as I've argued, many on the alt-right think that those differences apply to ALL members of the different races? That, for instance, all whites are more intelligent than all blacks?
I was trying to answer this when the site crashed.
Hope you didn't lose any of what you had written - can be extremely frustrating when that happens, for one reason or another.

However, while you've apparently "bought into race realism", I'm not entirely sure you've answered the question "why the alt-right is wrong", particularly related to my surmise. Of maybe some related interest or as a point of reference, the Wikipedia article on the topic which, somewhat uncharacteristically for them, seems off-kilter in disputing the concept of races and the idea that there can be differences, in general, between them:
Scientific racism (sometimes race realism, human biodiversity, race biology or racial biology is the pseudoscientific belief that empirical evidence exists to support or justify racism (racial discrimination), racial inferiority, or racial superiority; alternatively, it is the practice of classifying individuals of different phenotypes or genotype into discrete races. Historically it received credence in the scientific community, but is no longer considered scientific.
While discrimination is, generally, untenable, differences between groups, on average, seems pretty much of a slam dunk. The problem though seems to arise in sloppy use of language as, for example, in the interview of Damore & his lawyer by Tucker Carlson and by someone else in a second segment. While the interviewer in the latter case did eventually genuflect in the direction of averages - the crux of Damore's argument - he also had said earlier [@ about 9:13] "perhaps they [women] weren’t up to snuff with respect to the rigors of working in Silicon Valley at the upper echelons". Which seems kind of to allude to an argument that ALL women aren't "up to snuff" which is generally untenable, although it might be moot just what scenarios the interviewer had in mind with his "upper echelons".

But really kind of problematic comparing groups and individuals as the terms applicable to the first one generally aren't to the second one. For instance, while it is perfectly clear and entirely justified to say that woman A is taller or shorter than man B, it is more than a bit obscure to say, in referring to groups and as is frequently said, that men are taller than women: height is an attribute of individuals but not of groups. Conflating the two tends to cause no end of problems and unnecessary animosity.
VickyCaramel wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:59 pm
I'm not losing the argument against race realism because I bought into it some time in the early 1990s. Back in the early 90s, the British National Party had become an early adopter of the internet and you could even go have an argument with Nick Griffin in their chat room... which was your best option because the rest of them tended to be knuckle dragging, out-and-out Nazis. They were pushing the race realism then, throwing out crime figures, they were also saying that "THE" Jews controlled the banks, Hollywood and the media.... and the truth is they aren't wrong on any of these things.
Certainly more than some justification, as argued, for "buying into race realism", but saying it's not wrong to claim that "THE Jews controlled the banks etc." looks a bit iffy, kind of like a very questionable conspiracy theory. That, for instance, presuambly there are many Jews who are in "the banks, Hollywood and the media" is hardly justification for arguing or suggesting, apparently, that there's some sort of collusion taking place that is antithetical to the best interests of society in general. Seems rather akin to the "Patriarchy!!11!!" "theory", both of which are apparently cases of reification - like the "invisible hand" of Adam Smith. Many groups can give the appearance, and maybe even the effects, of communication and collusion, but frequently that's due more to simple self-interest as with Smith.
VickyCaramel wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:59 pm
Frankly, not much has changed. My experience is that rather than ex-army tattooed skinhead thugs, the foot soldiers (Comment section stormtroopers) of the Alt-Right tend to be 15 year old boys whose spelling is even worse. However they do know where to find all the race realism information and present it in the form of meme graphics. This is a rather effective tactic in so much as it helps them spread awareness of the 'problems'. But what hasn't changed is that the Far-Right still don't have any answers which are workable or palatable, unless you think, "We are just going to pay them to leave, we won't gas anyone, honestly we won't" is bankable.
"spreading awareness of the problems" seems half the battle, and well worth doing even if some of the solutions suggested may not be entirely "workable or palatable". But while I haven't delved too much into the specific platform planks of the Alt-Right, much less the of Far-Right cohort, I kind of think it depends on which "tribe" is deemed most problematic in any given situation. As mentioned before, you might check out the Wikipedia articles on the history of deportations, notably those of Muslims from Greece in 1923, and of Mexicans from the US in the 1930s, the latter being somewhat less credible or justified than the former.
VickyCaramel wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:59 pm
If you want to get ahead of the curve, you need to talk about how creating an ethnostate within the US is a fucking absurd idea. All this, "they can have California and we'll have Wyoming" bullshit is complete pie in the sky. These people are less numerous but no less ridiculous than the anarcho-capitalists and we are not going out of our way to confront them.

Frankly, the alt-right is still fringe and I can't see them playing any role on the future no matter how things play out.
The right with a fringe on top. :-) As the old joke has it, like the cat who had run away from the vet with a needle still stuck in its ear - a furry with a syringe on top ... :rimshot:

But agree about "absurd idea", though I think there's some justification for working with them - at least they recognize & promote the idea that there is a problem in the first place. Accentuate the positive and all that.
VickyCaramel wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:59 pm
Kirbmarc wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:45 pm
DrokkIt wrote:
Steersman wrote: <snip>
And why do you think "the alt-right is wrong even if those differences exist"? Maybe because, as I've argued, many on the alt-right think that those differences apply to ALL members of the different races? That, for instance, all whites are more intelligent than all blacks?
For my two penneth worth, I'd say they are wrong because they are (deliberately in many cases) conflating a scientific is with a moralistic ought.

You can demonstrate to me that group X are more intelligent than group Y. You cannot demonstrate to me that therefore X should have dominion over Y or avoid them altogether, especially if this dictate supersedes my own individual choice (i.e. "you are doing whiteness wrong by associating with black people).

In my view this is to do with the ideas and principles they espouse, and not with the pragmatic situation of immigration and cultural tension.
This. ....
You are still barking up the wrong tree. Their argument isn't that they should have dominion over another tribe, it is that they should be separate.
Their argument isn't that tribalism is a moral good, but that it is an inevitable fact that needs to be dealt with -- and that multiculturalism is pretty unnatural and is proven to fail no matter how strong your argument that it is a moral good. You would very quickly find yourself on the defensive if you try this route.
Question then is whether there's any justification to claim "multiculturalism is pretty unnatural". Just tarring all tribes with the same brush - saying that none of them "play well with others" - doesn't seem particularly tenable. Seems predicated on a rather superficial analysis - one that is only skin deep, so to speak.

However, to kind to reiterate a previous argument and to address Drokkit directly, I think it is obscure and fuzzy-thinking at best, and more likely a trap for the unwary and a pretext for those with an axe to grind, to say that "group X are more intelligent that group Y". Individual A can be more intelligent than individual B - and they may even come from different racial groups. But groups generally don't exhibit intelligence - that's an attribute of individuals, not groups. Better to emphasize that difference by saying of groups that the average intelligence of group A is higher or lower than that of group B - and the fact of that matter is that the difference in averages is generally very much less than that within any group - as Harris and many others have said repeatedly though, apparently, to little effect.

"Shoddy and inept application of words" and all that. :-)
VickyCaramel wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:59 pm
DrokkIt wrote: I think they also have an issue around what white *is and isn't*. It's very easy to look at a black dude and mate a categorical judgement about his race, but for a huge amount of people this isn't true.

Also yes re: naturalistic fallacy, loads of arguments from there. Reminds me of the "Black ways of knowing" bullshit about firing lightning form fingers.
This isn't an issue for them at all. They are quite prepared to say that they will give the benefit of the doubt to anyone who is in question.
If they had a colour chart and were only 'removing' the blackest of the black, it is win for them. If they remove only anyone who is easy to categorize then they have got 99% of what they want. (They can worry about the Quadroons further down the road).

The only damage you can do them with this line is to cause them infighting over when and where they will draw the line, but it isn't as if the hardcore Nazis are movers and shakers in the alt-Right.... i suspect many of them are just shitposters.
Sure seems highly problematic, at best, to be thinking that a person's skin colour, or any distinguishing attribute of any "race" for that matter, uniquely or categorically correlates with any particular set of values - good, bad, or indifferent. Presumably it is those values which are more likely to determine whether the corresponding cultures can "play well with others" or not.
I am not quite sure if you are agreeing with me or disagreeing.
My argument was that it isn't worth arguing with the alt-right. The very questions you raised are one of the reasons why. I will let somebody else argue about the Jewish conspiracy (or not quite a conspiracy) or if it is all tribes that can't play nice together, or just most, or maybe some. The Alt-right and far right have enough ammunition for fighting that battle indefinitely... but it doesn't really matter as the main chunk of the alt right seems little different to National Socialists and the rest of it seems exactly like National Socialists. Never mind the bad optics, I am not buying what they are selling.

Yes they are useful idiots by raising awareness of racial issues. They point out the problems even though they have no palatable solutions.

In regards to UK/Europe -- My prediction, and I suspect that it will probably be the best outcome, is that one day after some Somali immigrant has slaughtered a bus load of school kids, it will trigger a happening. it might be that the authorities crack down and the Muslims riot, or it might be that white people decide they have had enough, and a powderkeg which has been brewing will explode. This will cause a climate where those who don't share Western values will no want to stay and force the sitting government to take draconian measures to end sectarian violence. And when it's all over, people will want to get back to liberal democracy and the rule of law... hopefully with a stronger constitution and new bill of rights. This would be preferable to voting in a far right government.

The British have a distinct culture where we improvise and muddle through, I hope we can muddle through this one.

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