There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#181

Post by Steersman » Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:47 pm

Kirbmarc wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:09 am
Brive1987 wrote: There isn’t a simple single solution to rebuilding a culturally intact state.

However immigration, integration and economic strength aren’t exclusive concepts. Why Switzerland is one of Europe’s strongest ethnostates despite matching Australia for 30% foreign born population. Wow. All they did was make sure the vast majority of migrants were culturally aligned and then they apparently subject them to North Korea level integration sessions.
Hyperbole. All that is asked is to respect a list of shared rules without "muh culture" or "muh religion" exceptions, learn the local langauge(s) (and this is where people who already know the language get a head-start), and to become involved in the local life (making friends who can vouch for you, being part of local groups, participate in local politics, all in a productive fashion) if you want to become a citizen. Equal rules and equal standards for all. Honkey Americans who have had permanent residence in Switzerland for 40 years but haven't even bothered to learn the names of the villages which surround their place of residence get rejected, too.
Indeed. But somewhat apropos of the issue of immigration, Italy, & Islam:



Nice to see some pushback from the Christian cohort, arguably a credible and necessary bulwark against the depredations of Islam. Though the archbishop in question may not be particularly credible or representative.
Kirbmarc wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:09 am
Brive1987 wrote: Switzerland has also led the game narrowly voting in a couple of nifty initiatives.

In February 2014, the federal popular initiative "against mass immigration" was accepted. The referendum aimed to reduce immigration through quotas and limits the freedom of movement between Switzerland and the European Union.

In November 2010, the people's initiative for the deportation of criminal foreigners was adopted. Following the approval of the proposal, foreigners convicted of certain offenses or who were paid illegally social insurance benefits or social assistance lose the right of residence and are expelled from Switzerland.
And nobody accused Switzerland of being a fascist ethnostate for that reason. Well, nobody influential at least. So what's stopping Australia from changing its immigration rules? You don't even have any deals with the EU.
Indeed. Though still looks a tad "illiberal" ... ;-)
Kirbmarc wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:09 am

<snip>

"Equal rules for everyone with no exceptions" is the gold standard you should be promoting. The problem with "multiculturalism", loosely defined, is that it allows room for special concessions, exceptions, loopholes, etc. which undermine equality before the law. One example of this are "hate speech" laws, which are a loophole that (for example) muslim theocrats use to stifle criticism of islam. Another example is the idea that there's "no such thing as Australian/Swiss/Host Country culture" but that the cultures of immigrants are real and important. That's a double standard: either no culture is important or all cultures are. And so on, and so forth.
Indeed, although I'm not sure about the last bit there: some cultures are clearly better than others.

<snip>
Kirbmarc wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:09 am
You don't need an "ethnostate". You need to stop feeling guilty about enforcing the same rules for everyone. Another example, one that is very relevant to the nature of the Pit as a secularist/atheist board: secular groups should treat islam like they treat Christianity, with the same amount of criticism and mockery, instead of leaving islam alone because "it's the religion of brown people" (which isn't even true) or because "everyone on the Christian right already bashes muslims" (so what? offer better criticism, don't just chicken out for fear of being called a bigot).

Only IF the idea of equal rules for everyone is firmly ingrained in society you can face concrete issues about poverty, inequality of legal representation, police misconduct, lack of healthcare, etc. which are real and create practical inequalities which need to be addressed. But again, the focus should be on equal rights AND equal duties, with no catering to "offended" people and no special loopholes.
Indeed; well said - particularly "don't just chicken out for fear of being called a bigot" ... ;-)

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#182

Post by Billie from Ockham » Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:57 pm

Steersman wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:18 pm
Although that doesn't mean that "face-to-face conversations" are without their limitations and problematic aspects. Fer instance, not as easy to have recourse to pictures, to 8x12 photographs with circles & arrow and a paragraph on the back of each. And Twitter, and boards like this one, allow access to a larger audience as well as allowing some degree of interactivity; more bang for the buck, I expect.
Out of curiosity, do you make any effort to keep track of the topic of a conversation in which you're involved? (It's a cool new way to prevent yourself from going off on tangents.) Assuming that you do and that you were successful in this case, what (the fuck) makes you believe that having access to 8x12 pictures plays a significant role in causing you to start treating a person as an individual (instead of a modal member of their perceived type) when you meet them face-to-face. I mean, seriously. Have you ever met a person (face-to-face) for the first time and come away from the encounter thinking "I really would have gotten to know that guy/gal better if one or both of us had some 8x12 glossies in hand"?

On second thought, please treat the above as rhetorical.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#183

Post by Billie from Ockham » Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:06 pm

Steersman wrote:
When something causes a Catholic to start asking for separation between church and state, you know that it's serious.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#184

Post by Tigzy » Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:07 pm

Billie from Ockham wrote:
Steersman wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:18 pm
Although that doesn't mean that "face-to-face conversations" are without their limitations and problematic aspects. Fer instance, not as easy to have recourse to pictures, to 8x12 photographs with circles & arrow and a paragraph on the back of each. And Twitter, and boards like this one, allow access to a larger audience as well as allowing some degree of interactivity; more bang for the buck, I expect.
Out of curiosity, do you make any effort to keep track of the topic of a conversation in which you're involved? (It's a cool new way to prevent yourself from going off on tangents.) Assuming that you do and that you were successful in this case, what (the fuck) makes you believe that having access to 8x12 pictures plays a significant role in causing you to start treating a person as an individual (instead of a modal member of their perceived type) when you meet them face-to-face. I mean, seriously. Have you ever met a person (face-to-face) for the first time and come away from the encounter thinking "I really would have gotten to know that guy/gal better if one or both of us had some 8x12 glossies in hand"?

On second thought, please treat the above as rhetorical.
It's gonna be Steersman's new thing. I just know it. First it was the nigger/cunt hypothesis, then it was deport the lot/nuke mecca, then Bruce Jenner's dog, then ova, now it'll be 8x12 photographs.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#185

Post by Steersman » Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:41 pm

Billie from Ockham wrote:
Steersman wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:18 pm
Although that doesn't mean that "face-to-face conversations" are without their limitations and problematic aspects. Fer instance, not as easy to have recourse to pictures, to 8x12 photographs with circles & arrow and a paragraph on the back of each. And Twitter, and boards like this one, allow access to a larger audience as well as allowing some degree of interactivity; more bang for the buck, I expect.
Out of curiosity, do you make any effort to keep track of the topic of a conversation in which you're involved? (It's a cool new way to prevent yourself from going off on tangents.) Assuming that you do and that you were successful in this case, what (the fuck) makes you believe that having access to 8x12 pictures plays a significant role in causing you to start treating a person as an individual (instead of a modal member of their perceived type) when you meet them face-to-face.
Looks like you're looking at the issue from a particular point of view, and refuse to consider alternative ones - kind of like the spinning dancer ... Seems you're playing out a scenario in your mind and then thinking that that has to be the only one possible. I'm talking about another one, one where there's an online community talking about some abstractions, some behaviours of others in the community that may be problematic - and trying to show why that is the case.
Billie from Ockham wrote: I mean, seriously. Have you ever met a person (face-to-face) for the first time and come away from the encounter thinking "I really would have gotten to know that guy/gal better if one or both of us had some 8x12 glossies in hand"?
I don't meet that many individuals of different races and if I do then I generally treat them as individuals so the issue of treating them as a "modal member of their perceived type" doesn't arise so 8x12 glossies don't have any relevance.
Billie from Ockham wrote: On second thought, please treat the above as rhetorical.
Sorry, no can do - the moving finger writes, and all that. You threw the issue out on the table, and a bit disingenuous at best to then try and disavow your comment.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#186

Post by Steersman » Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:44 pm

Tigzy wrote:
Billie from Ockham wrote:
Steersman wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:18 pm
Although that doesn't mean that "face-to-face conversations" are without their limitations and problematic aspects. Fer instance, not as easy to have recourse to pictures, to 8x12 photographs with circles & arrow and a paragraph on the back of each. And Twitter, and boards like this one, allow access to a larger audience as well as allowing some degree of interactivity; more bang for the buck, I expect.
.... I mean, seriously. Have you ever met a person (face-to-face) for the first time and come away from the encounter thinking "I really would have gotten to know that guy/gal better if one or both of us had some 8x12 glossies in hand"? ...
It's gonna be Steersman's new thing. I just know it. First it was the nigger/cunt hypothesis, then it was deport the lot/nuke mecca, then Bruce Jenner's dog, then ova, now it'll be 8x12 photographs.
LoL. Never let it be said that I'm a one-trick pony ... ;-)

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#187

Post by Billie from Ockham » Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:03 pm

Just answer the question, then, instead of obeying my request that it be treated as rhetorical. What makes you think that having 8x12 pictures will make any difference when you meet a person for the first time and you're face-to-face?

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#188

Post by Steersman » Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:39 pm

Billie from Ockham wrote: Just answer the question, then, instead of obeying my request that it be treated as rhetorical. What makes you think that having 8x12 pictures will make any difference when you meet a person for the first time and you're face-to-face?
What makes you think that I said those 8x12s would make a difference? What I said was:
Steersman wrote:Fer instance, not as easy to have recourse to pictures, to 8x12 photographs with circles & arrow and a paragraph on the back of each.
Is that somehow asserting that they would make a difference?

I said that because, probably, I couldn't really envision a situation where the necessity for them would arise, and even if it did they probably wouldn't be readily available. Looks like two entirely different kettles of fish - at least to me; seems that what you hear is rather different from what I said.

But IF there were two or more of us - maybe over a couple of beers discussing the problematic aspects of stereotypes; hardly a "first-time" scenario - THEN being able to put those "8x12s" on the table might well help to clarify the nitty-gritty aspects of comparing groups and individuals.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#189

Post by Matt Cavanaugh » Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:47 pm

VickyCaramel wrote:
deLurch wrote: I feel like something got lost in the last thread switch.
Surf music would work well if it didn't have the voiceover.
It's better with the Yardbirds...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tml3SUvdhBw
There's something about the way gravity is not in effect in that video tells me in a water ditching, she'd be her own flotation device.

Since we're obviously not bound to originals:


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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#190

Post by Matt Cavanaugh » Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:54 pm

And following a natural segue:



From a much underappreciated band. And I hope another lurker was lurking for this one.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#191

Post by John D » Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:57 pm

Indeed... the redhead's brestseses and hair are both man-made. But they look good on video... so who cares?

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#192

Post by Keating » Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:16 pm

Murdoch Murdoch’s Sargon video is hilarious.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#193

Post by VickyCaramel » Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:18 pm

Matt Cavanaugh wrote: Since we're obviously not bound to originals:

As far as I know, Ernie K. Doe did the original (don't quote me on that). But some interesting trivia of the kind my dad would be interested in, it's Eric Clapton playing lead guitar on the Yardbirds version. But if you are more of a Jimmy Page kind of guy, he played lead guitar on The First Gear's version.

Wayne Fontana also did a version, and according to my mum he had wandering hands and was very creepy #MeToo

I prefer a fuzzy garage version myself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsGmCs1uvTE

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#194

Post by John D » Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:20 pm

Not that Tucker Carlson is a saint or anything... but he has the best Damore interview today.


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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#195

Post by Keating » Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:29 pm

For people who enjoy YouTube cringe:


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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#196

Post by VickyCaramel » Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:10 pm

Keating wrote: For people who enjoy YouTube cringe:

It is about time somebody took Jim down a peg or two.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#197

Post by VickyCaramel » Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:14 pm

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#198

Post by jugheadnaut » Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:58 pm

Matt Cavanaugh wrote: And following a natural segue:



From a much underappreciated band. And I hope another lurker was lurking for this one.
Listened to this song a month ago for the first time in about 20 years after i heard their lead singer, Pat DiNizio, had died.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#199

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:46 pm

Kirbmarc wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:09 am
Brive1987 wrote: There isn’t a simple single solution to rebuilding a culturally intact state.

However immigration, integration and economic strength aren’t exclusive concepts. Why Switzerland is one of Europe’s strongest ethnostates despite matching Australia for 30% foreign born population. Wow. All they did was make sure the vast majority of migrants were culturally aligned and then they apparently subject them to North Korea level integration sessions.
Hyperbole. All that is asked is to respect a list of shared rules without "muh culture" or "muh religion" exceptions, learn the local langauge(s) (and this is where people who already know the language get a head-start), and to become involved in the local life (making friends who can vouch for you, being part of local groups, participate in local politics, all in a productive fashion) if you want to become a citizen. Equal rules and equal standards for all. Honkey Americans who have had permanent residence in Switzerland for 40 years but haven't even bothered to learn the names of the villages which surround their place of residence get rejected, too.

The weaknesses of Anglo nations are double standards, special concessions, relaxing rules for a group because of some reason. In the UK, for example, this means publicly recognized religious courts (an insane idea, which goes against the principle that the law should be equal for everyone). I don't know enough about Australia, but it's possible that there are similar loopholes against common, shared rules because of the old "it's against my religion/culture" excuse.
Switzerland has also led the game narrowly voting in a couple of nifty initiatives.

In February 2014, the federal popular initiative "against mass immigration" was accepted. The referendum aimed to reduce immigration through quotas and limits the freedom of movement between Switzerland and the European Union.

In November 2010, the people's initiative for the deportation of criminal foreigners was adopted. Following the approval of the proposal, foreigners convicted of certain offenses or who were paid illegally social insurance benefits or social assistance lose the right of residence and are expelled from Switzerland.
And nobody accused Switzerland of being a fascist ethnostate for that reason. Well, nobody influential at least. So what's stopping Australia from changing its immigration rules? You don't even have any deals with the EU.
Note, these initiatives haven’t stopped Switzerland from belonging to the Wetsern Liberal Democracy club. In fact I’m not aware of a single UN resolution condemning the place for casual racism.
Because honkey foreign criminals get the boot, too. Because those rules aren't based on race.
For Australia a couple of bloody obvious options would be:

Develop a standard of living strategy that doesn’t involve a never ending stuffing of people into Melbourne and Sydney to simply keep the fires burning.

Reduce immigration to 70K pa
Reintroduce cultural markers as primary criteria for applicants.
Reassert a nominal culturally based religion for swearing in, Christmas messages etc.
Cut funding to culturally unaligned institutions like Islamic schools
Rewrite the curriculum to positively reflect heritage, history and traditional institutions.
Massively improve baby incentives - tax cuts, bonus and child care subs
Have a one day of the year where alien cultures are recognised otherwise FiFo
Introduce civic service for civic benefits

Etc etc.
I think that the only proposals which look questionable in your list are "cultural markers" and a "cultural religion". But it depends on how they're implemented: if the "cultural markers" are more about fluency in English/degrees/qualifications, and the "cultural religion" is more about liberal democratic values (so treating all citizens respectfully, respecting rules of law, accepting secular separation of church and state, accepting freedom of speech without pandering to "offended feelings", etc) then the plan doesn't seem too bad.

"Equal rules for everyone with no exceptions" is the gold standard you should be promoting. The problem with "multiculturalism", loosely defined, is that it allows room for special concessions, exceptions, loopholes, etc. which undermine equality before the law. One example of this are "hate speech" laws, which are a loophole that (for example) muslim theocrats use to stifle criticism of islam. Another example is the idea that there's "no such thing as Australian/Swiss/Host Country culture" but that the cultures of immigrants are real and important. That's a double standard: either no culture is important or all cultures are. And so on, and so forth.

Integration is based on saying "those are the laws and principles of the land, everybody who lives here has to obey them or face consequences, and if you don't know how or why, we'll teach you". I don't see why "western" liberal democracies can't adhere to this principle and still be (by virtue of being liberal democracies) lightyears better than theocratic or authoritarian clusterfucks.

The problem is that for some people the idea of making everyone respect the same laws and principles is "oppressive" for some reason, mostly because they assume that some groups are Eternal Victims and can't be expected to follow a common set of rules. We see it on a small scale with third wave feminism, where "activists" whine that poor women are "oppressed" by being called sexy or attractive ("objectification!") but can call men hunks or nice pieces of meat with no repercussions whatsoever. That's a clear and obnoxious double standard, but when you say so you're accused of being "sexist", "misogynistic" or other slurs.

The notions of Eternal Victimhood and Eternal Guilt are a big obstacle to equal standards, because if someone is always a victim and someone else is always an oppressor then it's easy to argue that equal standards are actually a form of discrimination, and the Eternal Victims permanently need help to "catch up" in the forms of loopholes, special concessions, being treated with kid's gloves, being "protected" by "allies" and never being assumed to be personally responsible and able to make their own choices, etc.

You don't need an "ethnostate". You need to stop feeling guilty about enforcing the same rules for everyone. Another example, one that is very relevant to the nature of the Pit as a secularist/atheist board: secular groups should treat islam like they treat Christianity, with the same amount of criticism and mockery, instead of leaving islam alone because "it's the religion of brown people" (which isn't even true) or because "everyone on the Christian right already bashes muslims" (so what? offer better criticism, don't just chicken out for fear of being called a bigot).

Only IF the idea of equal rules for everyone is firmly ingrained in society you can face concrete issues about poverty, inequality of legal representation, police misconduct, lack of healthcare, etc. which are real and create practical inequalities which need to be addressed. But again, the focus should be on equal rights AND equal duties, with no catering to "offended" people and no special loopholes.
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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#200

Post by mordacious1 » Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:10 pm

I don’t know what it is about J. Lawrence’s face? I just don’t find it attractive. It’s the eyes I think. The rest of her body is stunning, but meh on the face. I guess the Harvey Weinstein’s of the world and I have different tastes.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of themlike

#201

Post by Brive1987 » Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:19 pm

Braid-babes like this give alt-right a bad name.



.................

Kirb.

My North Korean quip was obvious hyperbole used for faintly comic effect and emphasis.

I am glad you agree with my program. Your suggestion of speaking English as a cultural marker is actually massively narrow. The 1901 Immigration Restriction Act (which came to be termed the White Australia Policy) had a dictation test. It required a person seeking entry to Australia to write out a passage of fifty words dictated to them in any European language, not necessarily English, at the discretion of an immigration officer. Yes. Wog-speak could, in theory, get you in.

“Between 1902 and 1909, only 59 people passed the test out of 1,359 who were given it. After 1903 passes were largely due to early immigration officers not understanding their role in this fraud. No-one passed the dictation test after 1909.”

Hideous ((Jew)) and noted linguist Egon Kisch proved a challenge in 1934. Eventually his undesirability was determined when he failed to pass a test in Scottish Gaelic. Damned riffraff.

Anyway, the reason your soundly supported Swiss initiates are not in place here is because of the worst SJW Govt ever inflicted on Australia - Whitlam - who was booted by the Queen’s proxy no less in the mid 1970s (incidentally proving the value of our modified Westminster system). He brought in the 1975 Racial Discrimination Act which made the use of racial criteria for any official purpose illegal. Apparently even then race and ethnicity were not seen as seperate, if interlinked, concepts.

Multiculturalism and asianisation became the goal in the swinging progressive post Vietnam 1970s, comfortable with the zany good vibes of injecting spice into the mostly white bread. In 1980 we launched a second National Broadcast TV network, SBS, specifically to cater for the silos of ethnicities which found the ABC (nicknamed Aunty) to confronting and mysterious.

Then the ideologs and haters got involved. The great though unfortunately not late, PM Paul Keating spelt it out. He loathed Britain and hated our colonial heritage (ironic given his collection of French clocks) and wanted us to turn Asian:

http://www.keating.org.au/shop/item/aus ... april-1992
Many things have changed and will change in Australia – our ethnic composition and, with it, our culture; our economic and industrial practices; our world view – a great deal will change.

But traditions of democracy, fairness and personal liberty which we have fought wars to defend, will remain this country's guiding principles.
He apparently didn’t factor in the muslims who have their own principles and the Chinese who don’t quite give a rats about our proud historical traditions.

Weirdly enough the only thing Keating hated more than our heritage was the city of Darwin. He once privately remarked that “the best way to see [the town] is at 35,000ft on the way to Paris”. It’s no doubt a tragedy that the French explorer Jean-François de Galaup, comte de Lapérouse missed out on claiming NSW in 1788 by literally a day. I’m quite confident we would still be part of the Republic, albeit with an odd provincial accent.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#202

Post by feathers » Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:23 pm

KiwiInOz wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:59 pm
Gotta love the French. Go Catherine Deneuve (etc).
Guardian wrote:Deneuve was one of about 100 female French writers, performers and academics who wrote an open letter deploring the wave of “denunciations” that has followed claims that the Hollywood producer Harvey Weinstein raped and sexually assaulted women over decades.

They claimed the “witch-hunt” that followed threatens sexual freedom.

“Rape is a crime, but trying to seduce someone, even persistently or cack-handedly, is not – nor is men being gentlemanly a macho attack,” said the letter published in the newspaper Le Monde.
Largest miracle, though: it's the Guardian which publishes this...

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#203

Post by feathers » Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:40 pm

Steersman wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:47 pm
“Islam’s tendency to break down the values ​​of the West, especially that of the essential distinction between politics and religion”?
That's rich coming from someone whose religion has its own state, which tries to influence foreign powers to suppress birth control.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#204

Post by Keating » Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:23 am

To be fair to Christianity, they used to have 5 major cities to make up the Pentarchy. If giving Islam its own city state diluted its power to be equivalent to that of Catholicism, that idea could have merit.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#205

Post by Steersman » Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:56 am

feathers wrote:
Steersman wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:47 pm
https: //twitter.com/JackBMontgomery/status/950765422533644288
“Islam’s tendency to break down the values ​​of the West, especially that of the essential distinction between politics and religion”?
That's rich coming from someone whose religion has its own state, which tries to influence foreign powers to suppress birth control.
Does seem a bit "off", doesn't it? And, now having read/skimmed the entire article ..., there are one or two other questionable points made by the archbishop that cause a raised eyebrow. Fer instance:
“We are tending to come to terms with secularism, to carve out a niche and make Catholicism a sort of element of folklore that does not trouble this atheistic society,” he said.

This loss of identity and a clear sense of mission ...
Obviously Negri is not particularly happy at that "loss of identity", the primacy of place that Catholicism in particular had even a century ago. And obviously there's a spectrum of beliefs and perspectives on that "mission" within the Church.

However, I think he's essentially correct with this that highlights some profound and problematic differences with Islam:
More than a faith, Islam is a law, a status, summarized by the word ‘sharia,’” he said.

“Unlike Christianity, which extols man’s freedom and his irreducibility, to the point of making him God’s partner in faith,” he said, “Islam does not take the person into consideration. The Muslim only has value for the social and political context in which he lives.” ...
Something which "Shadi Hamid, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution [apparently a think tank funded by Qatar, and a Muslim lobby group]", and who is a Muslim and "the author of a new book, Islamic Exceptionalism: How the Struggle Over Islam Is Reshaping the World", more or less confirms:
Can Islam and Liberalism Coexist?
Why Islam resists secularization, and how that continues to shape the politics of the Middle East.
By Isaac Chotiner

....

Isaac Chotiner: What precisely do you mean by “Islamic exceptionalism”?

Shadi Hamid: I’m essentially arguing that Islam is fundamentally different from other religions in a very specific way: its relationship to law and politics and governance. I wanted to use “exceptionalism” because I felt, at least for me, that it was value-neutral: It can be either good or bad depending on the context. I also wanted to challenge the assumption—very common in the bastions of Northeastern liberal elitism—that religion playing a role in public life is always or necessarily a bad thing. That’s the idea of the title, and what that means in practice is that Islam has proven to be resistant to secularism, and I would argue will continue to be resistant to secularism and secularization really for the rest of our lives. ...
Though one might reasonably argue that democracy and theocracy are fundamentally antithetical, and that they can't ever coexist, at least in the same state.

But the crux of the matter seems to be that Islam and Christianity are two entirely different kettles of fish simply because, as Negri argued, their profoundly different views on and valuations of the individual and society: a religion which "extols man’s freedom and his irreducibility" seems far more palatable, far more consistent with the values of secular society, than a religion that places both man and his society in thrall to and in the service of a rather twisted if not psychotic conception of god.

While Christianity has its warts, one might reasonably argue, as Churchill suggested, that it may at least provide something of a bulwark against the depredations of Islam.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#206

Post by KiwiInOz » Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:00 am

feathers wrote:
KiwiInOz wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:59 pm
Gotta love the French. Go Catherine Deneuve (etc).
Guardian wrote:Deneuve was one of about 100 female French writers, performers and academics who wrote an open letter deploring the wave of “denunciations” that has followed claims that the Hollywood producer Harvey Weinstein raped and sexually assaulted women over decades.

They claimed the “witch-hunt” that followed threatens sexual freedom.

“Rape is a crime, but trying to seduce someone, even persistently or cack-handedly, is not – nor is men being gentlemanly a macho attack,” said the letter published in the newspaper Le Monde.
Largest miracle, though: it's the Guardian which publishes this...
Mind you. Van Badham has written a piece in the same rag [url+https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... witch-hunt]excoriating her for her privilege[/url].

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#207

Post by KiwiInOz » Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:01 am

Bugger /+ =

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#208

Post by Bhurzum » Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:22 am

mordacious1 wrote: I don’t know what it is about J. Lawrence’s face? I just don’t find it attractive. It’s the eyes I think. The rest of her body is stunning, but meh on the face. I guess the Harvey Weinstein’s of the world and I have different tastes.
You think that's bad? I've got a mega-boner for Kristen Schaal and made the fatal mistake of mentioning it to my missus. Now everyone in our social circle knows about my lust for a woman who (according to one friend) "looks like a partially melted wax dummy" and has "a voice like a honking maternally distressed goose."

I understand that she's not conventionally beautiful (whatever that actually means) but there's something about her that gives me a twitcher. It wouldn't be so bad but she's become quite popular recently and pops up everywhere.

Anyway, there it is - the chink in my armour when it comes to the fairer sex.

http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/i ... l_9497.jpg

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#209

Post by Kirbmarc » Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:44 am

Keating wrote: To be fair to Christianity, they used to have 5 major cities to make up the Pentarchy. If giving Islam its own city state diluted its power to be equivalent to that of Catholicism, that idea could have merit.
Islam already has its own city state where no non-muslim can enter, it hasn't diluted its power at all. :bjarte:

What really diluted Christianity's power was secular liberalism and the entire process that led to it, starting from the French Revolution. Islam still needs its equivalent. A few imams needs to become acquainted with M.me Guillotine :bjarte:

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#210

Post by Oglebart » Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:45 am

Keating wrote: To be fair to Christianity, they used to have 5 major cities to make up the Pentarchy. If giving Islam its own city state diluted its power to be equivalent to that of Catholicism, that idea could have merit.
A Goatfucker Central? Would the more fervent muzzies want to live in that sort of place do you think? If so, it may be good for keeping them in one place. Trouble is, they have this pesky notion of wanting to make the whole word islamic. Just like Bradford or Luton.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#211

Post by Kirbmarc » Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:51 am

The important thing about the French Revolution and the other revolutions it inspired was that they happened in an autonomous way, led by the cultural elites of the same country where they happened. Whenever there were an imposition of a revolution from a foreign force (i.e. Napoleonic France in Spain and Southern Italy) it backfired and led to more regressive forces coming to the forefront (Sanfedists, Spanish guerrillas).

So we can't "export democracy" with bombs and invasions. The only hope for secularization of islam comes from some progressive cultural elites in muslim-majority countries. The biggest hurdles to that are the stern grip of religious authorities of education in those countries and the enormous amount of money and support that religious propaganda targeted to muslim has, largely thanks to the Gulf theocracies.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#212

Post by AndrewV69 » Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:57 am

BTW,

For those of you who have not read the James Damor memo (usually referred to as a screed or manifesto by the permanently outraged etc. & c) you can read it here *trigger warning* it is a PDF. Google’s Ideological Echo Chamber - James Damore Memo
(I was thinking to myself when I read the Damore memo how the FUCK can these people get through high school never mind university and not understand what he was saying?)

Also,

There is a A Primer on Statistics to Help Quell Your Outrage at the Google Memo which some might find helpful
(I only skimmed it half way and did not notice anything terribad)

Finally,

A couple of other possibly useful links The Google Memo: What Does the Research Say About Gender Differences? and they followed it up with this The Most Authoritative Review Paper on Gender Differences

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#213

Post by Brive1987 » Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:18 am

Does France have “save Bastille Day” issues? Maybe the USA has a “keep the 4th of July important” movement?

Or maybe we are special. So special.


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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#214

Post by deLurch » Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:23 am

mordacious1 wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:10 pm
I don’t know what it is about J. Lawrence’s face? I just don’t find it attractive. It’s the eyes I think. The rest of her body is stunning, but meh on the face. I guess the Harvey Weinstein’s of the world and I have different tastes.
I agree with you. But some people still go really nuts for her. I am actually completely turned off by Juliette Lewis whom others go gonzo for.

I have a theory that men tend to have a large amount of sexual attraction towards the body & face types of their first initial sexual experiences during the formative teenage years that initializes what they find attractive carrying forward into adulthood.

This may also help explain why some men really dig fat chicks.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#215

Post by MarcusAu » Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:28 am

On the same line of thinking - do you have any ideas about Furries?

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#216

Post by Bhurzum » Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:46 am

deLurch wrote: I have a theory that men tend to have a large amount of sexual attraction towards the body & face types of their first initial sexual experiences during the formative teenage years that initializes what they find attractive carrying forward into adulthood.

This may also help explain why some men really dig fat chicks.
Isn't that called "erotic crystallization" or something along those lines? As a kid, I used to sit in my fathers office and flick through his books (when I wasn't busy stealing stationery to draw all over) and I seem to recall reading something along those lines - our first "crush" becomes an archetype or standard against which all others are measured. The first crush "crystallizes" and becomes almost immutable? Bear in mind, we're talking psychiatry from 30+ years ago - I'm guessing things have moved along quite a bit in the interim.

I also remember reading about a dude (or mental condition) involving the inability to achieve orgasm without holding onto his partner's wedding ring. I think it may have been "guilt displacement" (or related to it) but as a kid, I found it very confusing and not a little amusing.

Man, I had a weird upbringing.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#217

Post by Bhurzum » Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:48 am

a guilt displacement thing*

Fucking edit button.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#218

Post by Bhurzum » Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:54 am

deLurch wrote: I am actually completely turned off by Juliette Lewis whom others go gonzo for.
Agreed - she's rough as a bucket of smashed crabs. However, she's a pretty good singer...


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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#219

Post by Brive1987 » Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:00 am

Police are finally trying to track down the Melb Milo protesters .......


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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#220

Post by ThreeFlangedJavis » Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:10 am

VickyCaramel wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:27 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41y7L7BjDX0

The name "Skeptical community" is up for grabs again, but it's a fixer-upper.

I think I might stick with "Fortean" for the time being.

giphy.gif
Sharon Hill is a skeptic, Michael Shermer is a skeptic, James Randi is a skeptic. Or at least they were commonly acknowledged as being part of what was known as the skeptic community, and they would be the first to acknowledge that skepticism is nothing more than a methodology . The shower of Charlies that have been called skeptics of late never really were, so nothing has really changed except for the perceptions of some knownothings on the internet. Fortean strikes me as a name for people who want to be called skeptics without having to let go of pet pseudoscience or woo.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#221

Post by SM1957 » Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:32 am

deLurch wrote:
mordacious1 wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:10 pm
I don’t know what it is about J. Lawrence’s face? I just don’t find it attractive. It’s the eyes I think. The rest of her body is stunning, but meh on the face. I guess the Harvey Weinstein’s of the world and I have different tastes.
I agree with you. But some people still go really nuts for her. I am actually completely turned off by Juliette Lewis whom others go gonzo for.

I have a theory that men tend to have a large amount of sexual attraction towards the body & face types of their first initial sexual experiences during the formative teenage years that initializes what they find attractive carrying forward into adulthood.

This may also help explain why some men really dig fat chicks.
I am eternally grateful to having watched Diana Rigg as Emma Peel in the Avengers when I was young.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#222

Post by feathers » Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:39 am

Kirbmarc wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:51 am
The important thing about the French Revolution and the other revolutions it inspired was that they happened in an autonomous way, led by the cultural elites of the same country where they happened. Whenever there were an imposition of a revolution from a foreign force (i.e. Napoleonic France in Spain and Southern Italy) it backfired and led to more regressive forces coming to the forefront (Sanfedists, Spanish guerrillas).
Weren't the French revolutionaries, SJWs avant la lettre? First, eradicated every enemy based on lineage rather than merit; then turned on their own for perceived insufficient purity.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#223

Post by feathers » Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:56 am

MarcusAu wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:28 am
On the same line of thinking - do you have any ideas about Furries?
They combust easier than skinheads?

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#224

Post by Phil_Giordana_FCD » Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:58 am

They were mostly morons.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#225

Post by feathers » Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:00 am

Phil_Giordana_FCD wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:58 am
They were mostly morons.
Who, French revvies or furries?


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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#227

Post by MarcusAu » Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:16 am

John D wrote: Indeed... the redhead's brestseses and hair are both man-made. But they look good on video... so who cares?
Who cares? Wheeler Walker Jr, that's who.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcwlsVBPe-M

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#228

Post by Shatterface » Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:53 am

feathers wrote:
Kirbmarc wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:51 am
The important thing about the French Revolution and the other revolutions it inspired was that they happened in an autonomous way, led by the cultural elites of the same country where they happened. Whenever there were an imposition of a revolution from a foreign force (i.e. Napoleonic France in Spain and Southern Italy) it backfired and led to more regressive forces coming to the forefront (Sanfedists, Spanish guerrillas).
Weren't the French revolutionaries, SJWs avant la lettre? First, eradicated every enemy based on lineage rather than merit; then turned on their own for perceived insufficient purity.
SJWs jumped right to the self-purification stage. The actual elites are largely oblivious to them.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#229

Post by Shatterface » Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:58 am

SM1957 wrote: I am eternally grateful to having watched Diana Rigg as Emma Peel in the Avengers when I was young.
I think early imprinting might explain my unusual preferences.

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/6b/98/28/6b98 ... nculus.jpg


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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#231

Post by VickyCaramel » Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:00 am

ThreeFlangedJavis wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:10 am
Fortean strikes me as a name for people who want to be called skeptics without having to let go of pet pseudoscience or woo.
There are two kinds of skeptics... those who are chasing the 'debunk' so they can cross it of their list, they seem to think this makes them smarter than everyone else, yet they sound idiotic when they are dismissive of mysteries they can't solve. And there are those that enjoy the mystery. Obviously there is a spectrum but I am on the Fortean end and enjoy debunking the debunkers just as much as I enjoy debunking conspiracy theorists.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#232

Post by jet_lagg » Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:12 am

Billie from Ockham wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:57 pm
Steersman wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:18 pm
[lamentations that people are not actually machine-readable arrays of data]
I mean, seriously. Have you ever met a person (face-to-face) for the first time and come away from the encounter thinking "I really would have gotten to know that guy/gal better if one or both of us had some 8x12 glossies in hand"?
You do know who you're talking to, right?

Guest_d2e60302

Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#233

Post by Guest_d2e60302 » Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:17 am



Interesting perspectives....

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#234

Post by VickyCaramel » Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:22 am

SM1957 wrote:
deLurch wrote:
mordacious1 wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:10 pm
I don’t know what it is about J. Lawrence’s face? I just don’t find it attractive. It’s the eyes I think. The rest of her body is stunning, but meh on the face. I guess the Harvey Weinstein’s of the world and I have different tastes.
I agree with you. But some people still go really nuts for her. I am actually completely turned off by Juliette Lewis whom others go gonzo for.

I have a theory that men tend to have a large amount of sexual attraction towards the body & face types of their first initial sexual experiences during the formative teenage years that initializes what they find attractive carrying forward into adulthood.

This may also help explain why some men really dig fat chicks.
I am eternally grateful to having watched Diana Rigg as Emma Peel in the Avengers when I was young.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idtYckLIZnI

Me too.
I think Diana Rigg is adorable personified, an absolute goddess. However I don't find her attractive, possibly because because I idolize her and Honour Blackman.

...incidentally, if you don't adore them both enough already, both rejected feminism.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#235

Post by Bhurzum » Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:23 am

VickyCaramel wrote: There are two kinds of skeptics... those who are chasing the 'debunk' so they can cross it of their list, they seem to think this makes them smarter than everyone else, yet they sound idiotic when they are dismissive of mysteries they can't solve. And there are those that enjoy the mystery. Obviously there is a spectrum but I am on the Fortean end and enjoy debunking the debunkers just as much as I enjoy debunking conspiracy theorists.
I think the only thing I fall foul of is the "life elsewhere in the universe" question. I mean, if we're talking about statistical probability, I think it's incredibly foolish to deny the possibility of wee green men. Don't get me wrong, I don't believe the crazy stuff (men in black, abductions, lizard overlords etc) but I'm certainly open to the notion of life (in some form or other) beyond planet Earth. I also love the various schools of thought on the subject and really enjoy listening to them thrash it out.

Oh, and the "panspermia" proposition intrigues me but the mere mention of it only sets off the Carrier alarms.

https://i.imgur.com/HkPOzEH.jpg?1

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#236

Post by jet_lagg » Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:41 am

If you polled a group of self-described skeptics I'm certain you'd find most of them accept the existence of life elsewhere in the universe, but doubt alien visits. One seems inevitable unless advances in understanding of abiogenesis show it's insanely improbable. The other requires speculating about new types of propulsion and physics.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#237

Post by Shatterface » Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:48 am

I don't doubt there's life elsewhere in the universe.

I just don't believe it communicates via crop circles or has a propensity for butt-fucking hill billies.

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#238

Post by Bhurzum » Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:07 am

Shatterface wrote: I just don't believe it communicates via crop circles or has a propensity for butt-fucking hill billies.
Perhaps one explains the other?

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#239

Post by MarcusAu » Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:15 am

VickyCaramel wrote: There are two kinds of skeptics... those who are chasing the 'debunk' so they can cross it of their list, they seem to think this makes them smarter than everyone else, yet they sound idiotic when they are dismissive of mysteries they can't solve. And there are those that enjoy the mystery. Obviously there is a spectrum but I am on the Fortean end and enjoy debunking the debunkers just as much as I enjoy debunking conspiracy theorists.
If the Forteans in general are anything like those that run the 'Fortean Times' magazine - they at least have a sense of humour about their activities.

I'm reminded of Dave Langford's great work (or hoax if you prefer) - which was latter referenced by Whitley Strieber.

http://ansible.uk/books/account.html

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Re: There are 2018 genders... and a bitch ain't one of them

#240

Post by Billie from Ockham » Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:18 am

John D wrote: Not that Tucker Carlson is a saint or anything... but he has the best Damore interview today.

For all I know, it really was the best interview, but if that counts as even a good interview, then journalism is truly dead.

Carlson's first question asked for Damore's opinion on why Google vilified him after he left ... something that Damore could only guess.
Likewise, Carlson's third question (which was to the lawyer) asked for an opinion on why Google thinks they can get away with things.
The last two questions asked for Damore's guess on whether all this will affect his future employment prospects.

Carlson's only good question was the second, when he asked the lawyer whether the alleged activities are illegal.

When you add in how Carlson usually turns any accusation against a company into a "let the market sort it out" (but not here), it was not worth the time to watch, IMO.

Locked