Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

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KiwiInOz
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Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#18961

Post by KiwiInOz » Sun Jun 18, 2017 2:11 pm

shoutinghorse wrote:snip


Russia indeed paid a terrible price in lives lost and ruined during WW2 but to say they won the war is laughable, the only way Stalin could fight back was with allied supplies delivered by the British in the Arctic convoys.

[youtube]
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My wife's grandfather was in the Merchant Navy and did the Murmansk run. A bit chilly, apparently.

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Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#18962

Post by Easy J » Sun Jun 18, 2017 2:16 pm

MarcusAu wrote:It's seems weird that those pictures are in colour.

But I'm sure it's nothing like as weird as being there in person.
I think the color was added in the late 60's to impress the Soviets.

I've been reading on the assassination since my teens, so it was a bit weird to be standing there. It's a familiar intellectual playground I visit to avoid reality. It's not supposed to show up in the real world.

I made it a point to drive slowly over the X marks on the way home, reflexively hearing "bang" in my head as I went over them. Kinda depressing. It was all sorta distant for years but at some point Jack became a real person to me. I remember tearing up while reading about Jackie cradling his head at the hospital, resisting the agents's efforts to take him. I became a huge Jack Ruby fan that day.

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Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#18963

Post by Brive1987 » Sun Jun 18, 2017 2:18 pm

Matt Cavanaugh wrote:
Brive1987 wrote: I watched a doco last night that claimed the allies never bombed the Wolfs Lair because they wanted to keep Hitler alive as their best tool to help win the war.

I turned it off.

I wonder where the turn around point was for British based B17 / Lancasters? Though I recall they couldn't get to Warsaw and back when it mattered in 'black '44".
Bomber Command attacked targets in East Prussia, but their tactics involved setting city centers on fire, not pinpoint strikes on huts in the woods. A damn-buster type raid might have been considered, but was likely impractical.

The Amis were getting their asses kicked whenever they ventured deep into German airspace, and for the first half of '44, were concentrating on prepping for OVERLORD and hitting V-sites. They tried one of two shuttle raids to Russia, (Marienberg target?) but the Soviets treated their crews as PoWs after landing, so end of that.

In any case, they'd never know when Hitler was at the Wolf's Lair. They took out Yamamoto only because they had solid intel.

Ignorant lay enthusiasts always imagine it's so easy to make things happen with military technology and forget the logistics, planning, diplomatic repercussions, chance, etc.


OTOH, FDR for one was never going to negotiate with a military coup, as he'd gotten stuck in his head this fantasy of a "Prussian Elite" responsible for everything bad ever, that needed to be excised from German consciousness like a tumor. (He was likely projecting from his own patrician upbringing on the Hudson.) The reckless Casablanca "unconditional surrender" decree would still have been in force following a successful coup, so why bother taking out Hitler for them?
The Germans clearly didn't get the "negotiation is futile" memo. The July plot right through to Himmler's treachery in '45 were predicated on Western recalibration against Russia. Futile? Maybe. But this was the German perceived reality.

The Allies had also good form with Tall Boy and Grand Slam strikes against hardened and/or well protected targets. With regards to the Wolf's Lair, here the truculent Russian position on using their airfields for the common good would have kicked in. The Soviets wanted western engagement - just not on their terf. Up goes the red flag. Dicks.

Even a carpet bombing raid would have placed a fragile Hitler under extreme stress. He spent 1944 turning the Lair into a concrete wonderland and was paranoid about a parachute drop. Hell you could have triggered him with left-over D-Day parachute dummies. Command interdiction is a legitimate strategy.

But the reality was that none of this was ever seemingly considered. I suspect the Allies wanted to physically crush Germany, Carthage style, given the post 1919 experience and the need to de-nazify. Negotiation and handwaving were never going to be options. Consequently logistically difficult strategies, thus orientated, were a distraction.

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Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#18964

Post by Shatterface » Sun Jun 18, 2017 2:25 pm

Guest_6d745865 wrote:The Guardian made very clear when they closed down Comment Is Free and replaced it with the Opinion section (in which not all of the articles have comments open) that they found it problematic when people below the line keep coming with inconvenient data refuting the article. They outright said that they would not open comments on a lot of articles in future specifically because those pesky commenters keep fucking up the narrative.

CaughtUpLockedOut
Just delete your links to The Guardian. If they had an honest comments section then fine, you'd get to hone your debating skills, but they don't.

It's just click bait and they delete your comments just to make you hit refresh.

Let the fucking paper die.

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Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#18965

Post by Brive1987 » Sun Jun 18, 2017 2:36 pm

KiwiInOz wrote:
shoutinghorse wrote:snip


Russia indeed paid a terrible price in lives lost and ruined during WW2 but to say they won the war is laughable, the only way Stalin could fight back was with allied supplies delivered by the British in the Arctic convoys.

[y.outube]
[/youtube]
My wife's grandfather was in the Merchant Navy and did the Murmansk run. A bit chilly, apparently.
He fought for a good cause - imagine if the contemporary West had to take WWII seriously?

These lucky people bought the "jump the queue" option at Rastenberg-Disney. Nice to see the Poles have a sense of humour about the place.

https://www.explorermagazin.de/nordost09/no09w04.jpg

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Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#18966

Post by Shatterface » Sun Jun 18, 2017 2:57 pm

From The Onion, curtesy of WEIT:

[youtube]
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Apologies if I've been :nin:

Billie from Ockham
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Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#18967

Post by Billie from Ockham » Sun Jun 18, 2017 3:09 pm

Brive1987 wrote:The Germans clearly didn't get the "negotiation is futile" memo.
You guys aren't really into this question ... you're just baiting Aneris to come back.

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Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#18968

Post by Shatterface » Sun Jun 18, 2017 3:25 pm

Billie from Ockham wrote:
Brive1987 wrote:The Germans clearly didn't get the "negotiation is futile" memo.
You guys aren't really into this question ... you're just baiting Aneris to come back.
http://prodimage.images-bn.com/pimages/ ... 92x300.jpg


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Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#18970

Post by Matt Cavanaugh » Sun Jun 18, 2017 3:27 pm

Brive1987 wrote: The Germans clearly didn't get the "negotiation is futile" memo. The July plot right through to Himmler's treachery in '45 were predicated on Western recalibration against Russia. Futile? Maybe. But this was the German perceived reality.

The Allies had also good form with Tall Boy and Grand Slam strikes against hardened and/or well protected targets. With regards to the Wolf's Lair, here the truculent Russian position on using their airfields for the common good would have kicked in. The Soviets wanted western engagement - just not on their terf. Up goes the red flag. Dicks.

Even a carpet bombing raid would have placed a fragile Hitler under extreme stress. He spent 1944 turning the Lair into a concrete wonderland and was paranoid about a parachute drop. Hell you could have triggered him with left-over D-Day parachute dummies. Command interdiction is a legitimate strategy.

But the reality was that none of this was ever seemingly considered. I suspect the Allies wanted to physically crush Germany, Carthage style, given the post 1919 experience and the need to de-nazify. Negotiation and handwaving were never going to be options. Consequently logistically difficult strategies, thus orientated, were a distraction.
Are you of the opinion, then, that action against the Wolf's Lair was ruled out based on grand strategy? Consciously, or perhaps never even considered because of outlook?

Both Harris' Bomber Command and the 'Bomber Mafia' of the USAAF were so fixated on Douhetian theory they developed extreme tunnel vision. They couldn't even manage to provide the invasion of Sicily with air support, so a raid like this was probably inconceivable for them.

The OSS guys were constantly urging to support the anti-Hitler conspiracy but were rebuffed by Washington.

The unconditional surrender decree directly hindered efforts to get some of the more stodgy and cautious senior officers on board with the coup.

As for the need to de-nazify, the conspiracy's post-coup government was going to handle that.

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Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#18971

Post by Tigzy » Sun Jun 18, 2017 3:29 pm

shoutinghorse wrote:
I've lost all sympathy for the man, keep fucking crazy you deserve all you get.

http://i.imgur.com/a7JuCRJ.png
She's got a face fit for a Surly Amy portait, for sure.

http://i.imgur.com/K75iM2A.jpg

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Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#18972

Post by CommanderTuvok » Sun Jun 18, 2017 3:40 pm

Guest_6d745865 wrote:The Guardian made very clear when they closed down Comment Is Free and replaced it with the Opinion section (in which not all of the articles have comments open) that they found it problematic when people below the line keep coming with inconvenient data refuting the article. They outright said that they would not open comments on a lot of articles in future specifically because those pesky commenters keep fucking up the narrative.

CaughtUpLockedOut
Comment is (NOT) Free went down the shitter at least 5 years ago. So many ATL (above the line) articles were getting ripped to shreds by facts and mockery (mortal enemies of SJWs) from commentators BTL (below the line), they had to do what ALL regressive media have done - restrict commenting, censor comments, or not open comments at all.

Hey, they're losing money hand over first. Good! The Guardian is not a liberal outlet any more (it gives a platform to groups like CAGE, but keeps on attacking people like Maajid Nawaz and other progressive Muslims, took the side of the anti-GGers, got it wrong on Tim Hunt, etc.) and is just like Salon, Buzzfeed, and the other scum.

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Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#18973

Post by ThreeFlangedJavis » Sun Jun 18, 2017 3:43 pm

Brive1987 wrote:
Matt Cavanaugh wrote:
Brive1987 wrote: I watched a doco last night that claimed the allies never bombed the Wolfs Lair because they wanted to keep Hitler alive as their best tool to help win the war.

I turned it off.

I wonder where the turn around point was for British based B17 / Lancasters? Though I recall they couldn't get to Warsaw and back when it mattered in 'black '44".
Bomber Command attacked targets in East Prussia, but their tactics involved setting city centers on fire, not pinpoint strikes on huts in the woods. A damn-buster type raid might have been considered, but was likely impractical.

The Amis were getting their asses kicked whenever they ventured deep into German airspace, and for the first half of '44, were concentrating on prepping for OVERLORD and hitting V-sites. They tried one of two shuttle raids to Russia, (Marienberg target?) but the Soviets treated their crews as PoWs after landing, so end of that.

In any case, they'd never know when Hitler was at the Wolf's Lair. They took out Yamamoto only because they had solid intel.

Ignorant lay enthusiasts always imagine it's so easy to make things happen with military technology and forget the logistics, planning, diplomatic repercussions, chance, etc.


OTOH, FDR for one was never going to negotiate with a military coup, as he'd gotten stuck in his head this fantasy of a "Prussian Elite" responsible for everything bad ever, that needed to be excised from German consciousness like a tumor. (He was likely projecting from his own patrician upbringing on the Hudson.) The reckless Casablanca "unconditional surrender" decree would still have been in force following a successful coup, so why bother taking out Hitler for them?
The Germans clearly didn't get the "negotiation is futile" memo. The July plot right through to Himmler's treachery in '45 were predicated on Western recalibration against Russia. Futile? Maybe. But this was the German perceived reality.

The Allies had also good form with Tall Boy and Grand Slam strikes against hardened and/or well protected targets. With regards to the Wolf's Lair, here the truculent Russian position on using their airfields for the common good would have kicked in. The Soviets wanted western engagement - just not on their terf. Up goes the red flag. Dicks.

Even a carpet bombing raid would have placed a fragile Hitler under extreme stress. He spent 1944 turning the Lair into a concrete wonderland and was paranoid about a parachute drop. Hell you could have triggered him with left-over D-Day parachute dummies. Command interdiction is a legitimate strategy.

But the reality was that none of this was ever seemingly considered. I suspect the Allies wanted to physically crush Germany, Carthage style, given the post 1919 experience and the need to de-nazify. Negotiation and handwaving were never going to be options. Consequently logistically difficult strategies, thus orientated, were a distraction.
Exactly. There was not to be a shred of doubt about who lost, no scapegoating of fifth columns, and the experience was to be made too traumatic for any thoughts of a re-match to be entertained. It couldn't have been any other way given the enormity of the crime. Hitler wanted Total War and he got it. The Allies suppressed knowledge of the Nazi death camps precisely because they were after complete victory and did not want to get pressured into squandering time and resources on futile raids against the camps.

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Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#18974

Post by TheMudbrooker » Sun Jun 18, 2017 3:56 pm

deLurch wrote:
Phil_Giordana_FCD wrote:the Fifth Element was an excellent movie, and it would have been diminished if not for Ruby Rhod.
There, I said it!
Agreed. Hilarious movie. Stacked full of over the top heavily stylized characters. Ruby Rhod fit in that universe.
Pointy tits elevate any moviehttp://www.nudography.com/photos/news/2 ... 80p-01.jpg.

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Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#18975

Post by Shatterface » Sun Jun 18, 2017 4:22 pm

So anyone else looking forward to Luc Besson's return to science fiction?

[youtube]
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Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#18976

Post by BarnOwl » Sun Jun 18, 2017 4:44 pm

Shatterface wrote:So anyone else looking forward to Luc Besson's return to science fiction?

[youtube]
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That looks awesome! Tempted to buy some of the graphic novels.

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Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#18977

Post by BarnOwl » Sun Jun 18, 2017 4:47 pm


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Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#18978

Post by Lsuoma » Sun Jun 18, 2017 4:49 pm

From the BBC:

A vehicle has struck pedestrians "leaving a number of casualties" in north London, police said.

One person has been arrested following the incident on Seven Sisters Road in Finsbury Park.

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Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#18979

Post by Shatterface » Sun Jun 18, 2017 4:50 pm

Finsbury Park: 'Several hurt' as vehicle hits pedestrians

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/40322960

Police report casualties after van hits pedestrians in Finsbury Park, London

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theg ... rth-london

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Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#18980

Post by Lsuoma » Sun Jun 18, 2017 4:50 pm

Gak. Niggered....

:nin: :nin: :nin: :nin: :nin:

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Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#18981

Post by Shatterface » Sun Jun 18, 2017 4:53 pm

Lsuoma wrote:From the BBC:

A vehicle has struck pedestrians "leaving a number of casualties" in north London, police said.

One person has been arrested following the incident on Seven Sisters Road in Finsbury Park.
Twitter is outraged because the press isn't instantly labelling this terrorism.

Could just be part and parcel of living in a big city.

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Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#18982

Post by Tigzy » Sun Jun 18, 2017 4:55 pm

According to twitter, the muslims were killed by a racist white guy and Tommy Robinson is to blame.

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Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#18983

Post by KiwiInOz » Sun Jun 18, 2017 4:55 pm

Shatterface wrote:So anyone else looking forward to Luc Besson's return to science fiction?

[youtube]
[/youtube]
Hmm. :think:

Cara whatsherface is almost as wooden an actor as that dude who did teenage angsty Anakin Skywalker

Jabba the Hutt appears to make a cameo, and there also appear to be white-faced Navii.

The galaxy is too small for another Guardians of the Galaxy team.

I'll control my anticipation in the interim.

:whistle:

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Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#18984

Post by Shatterface » Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:01 pm

Tigzy wrote:According to twitter, the muslims were killed by a racist white guy and Tommy Robinson is to blame.
This kind of thing never happened before Brexit.

Really?
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Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#18985

Post by Really? » Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:23 pm

Shatterface wrote:Finsbury Park: 'Several hurt' as vehicle hits pedestrians

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/40322960

Police report casualties after van hits pedestrians in Finsbury Park, London

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theg ... rth-london
I'm a little confused. To my knowledge, they haven't released the name of the guy they arrested. (And the guy was walking, so seems perfectly lucid.) I am assuming that we would know the name instantly if it were Archibald Spencer Englishwhite or something.

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Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#18986

Post by rayshul » Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:31 pm

It was near a Muslim place so my feels on this one is that it's a retaliatory attack from someone who's fucking sick of Muslims.

Which is really the same kind of fucking terrorism problem, given it has the same root cause.

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Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#18987

Post by Steersman » Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:31 pm

Shatterface wrote:
Tigzy wrote:According to twitter, the muslims were killed by a racist white guy and Tommy Robinson is to blame.
This kind of thing never happened before Brexit.
Indeed. Though you could also blame Trump. Or the Russians. Sure a lot of unhinged people floating about, swinging in the breeze (so to speak); religion poisons everything and all that, although ideology in general seems the general culprit:


Heat Street article on story:
https://heatst.com/politics/antifa-memb ... nstration/

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Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#18988

Post by Lsuoma » Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:39 pm

Steersman wrote:
Shatterface wrote:
Tigzy wrote:According to twitter, the muslims were killed by a racist white guy and Tommy Robinson is to blame.
This kind of thing never happened before Brexit.
Indeed. Though you could also blame Trump. Or the Russians. Sure a lot of unhinged people floating about, swinging in the breeze (so to speak); religion poisons everything and all that, although ideology in general seems the general culprit:

[twoot][/tweet]


Heat Street article on story:
https://heatst.com/politics/antifa-memb ... nstration/
While not minimizing the attack on the horse, which I deplore, horses are incredibly robust where superficial wounds are concerned. As someone who has had to give IM injections to horses, you REALLY have to slam the needle into the neck to get through the hide.

Also, if you are not TOO squeamish, look at pictures of horses injured in WW1 and see what sort of injuries they sustained and survived. Broken bones are really bad news, and they are not at all resistant to starvation, but soft-tissue wounds heal incredibly quickly and without debilitating the horse, in most cases.

Now, what we need to see if a few hoof prints on Antifa cunts. Or more than a few, if they continue to target animals.

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Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#18989

Post by Steersman » Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:48 pm

rayshul wrote:It was near a Muslim place so my feels on this one is that it's a retaliatory attack from someone who's fucking sick of Muslims.

Which is really the same kind of fucking terrorism problem, given it has the same root cause.
Atheism? ;-)

A passage from Niall Shanks' God, The Devil, and Darwin (highly recommended) on the "Intelligent Design Movement":
Shanks wrote:In [Harun Yahya's] book, Evolution Deceit: The Scientific Collapse of Darwinism and Its Ideological Background ..., he argues, in curious ecumenical tones, that Darwinism is as the root of religious terrorism, be it done in the name of Christianity, Islam, or Judaism:
Yahya wrote:For this reason, if some people commit terrorism using the concepts and symbols of Islam, Christianity, and Judaism in the name of those religions, you can be sure that those people are not Muslims. They are real Social Darwinists. They hide under the cloak of relgion, but they are not genuine belivers. ... That is because they are ruthlessly committing a crime that religion forbids, and in such a way as to blacken religion in peoples' eyes.

For this reason the root of terrorism that plagues our planet is not any of the divine religions, but it is in atheism, and in the expression of atheism in our times: "Darwinism" and "materialism". ...
[pg 10]
Rather depressing though, the extent to which so many people insist on promoting ideologies, and religions in particular, that haven't hardly a patch of cloth to cover their & its naked ignorance, savagery, and barbarism - so to speak.

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Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#18990

Post by Shatterface » Sun Jun 18, 2017 6:07 pm

Lsuoma wrote:Now, what we need to see if a few hoof prints on Antifa cunts. Or more than a few, if they continue to target animals.
These cunts probably see themselves as modern day Emily Davisons, bravely stabbing horses the way she did. Next, they'll hijack a bus and run over children just like Rosa Parks.

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Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#18991

Post by Shatterface » Sun Jun 18, 2017 6:09 pm

rayshul wrote:It was near a Muslim place so my feels on this one is that it's a retaliatory attack from someone who's fucking sick of Muslims.

Which is really the same kind of fucking terrorism problem, given it has the same root cause.
The police should put somebody undercover in that mosque. You know, for their own security.

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Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#18992

Post by katamari Damassi » Sun Jun 18, 2017 6:11 pm

Ape+lust wrote:
Shatterface wrote:Where intersectionality breaks down is that where being black and gay may multiply the prejudice a gay black person might face from straight white people it ignores the fact that prejudice against homosexuals is higher among black people, so a gay black person might face quantatively more prejudice from a straight black person than a straight white person.
I think that's why Gazi Kodzo is always hooting and gibbering like an off-the-leash Chris Tucker. If he dialed his antics down, his own beloved race will "notice" he's gay and treat him like he wants whites treated. It'd be a sad day for a black gay boy.
Read the comments on his GLBT videos. He gets push back from his black radical fans.

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Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#18993

Post by Steersman » Sun Jun 18, 2017 6:11 pm

Kirbmarc wrote:
John D wrote:
Kirbmarc wrote:To put it bluntly, that's never going to happen. The Jews don't want to become a minority religion in Israel. They're already struggling with the demographic rise of the Israeli Muslims.

<snip>

If, on the other hand, the US and the EU decide that enough is enough and they've had it with all muslim militias then Israel might enjoy more support and force the Palestinians to all leave. Of course there's also Russia. The Russians have close ties to Iran and would probably react badly to a Western-approved Palestinian ethnic cleansing/"population transfer" (to borrow a Steersman-ism). ...
Hardly a term I've coined as Wikipedia has an article of the same title. Although I like to think that I've contributed substantially, with my many tweets of the link to it, to increasing the Google rank of the term. ;-) Given that the individual largely responsible for the case in 1923 garnered a Nobel Peace Prize for his efforts, you might consider that the terms, both "ethnic cleansing" and "population transfer" aren't quite as odious, or unjustified - at least in their non-genocidal forms, as you imply.

But in other news, since you seem fairly well versed in the topic and have commented on the story, you might check out, if you haven't seen it yet, a Bloomberg article on the "Qatar Incident":
Muslim Brotherhood Is at the Heart of Gulf Standoff With Qatar

As you suggested or argued earlier, Trump - with his frequent volte-faces or wearing egg on his own as a result of his own comments/tweets about Qatar, is looking more and more like the proverbial loose cannon. Although that might be a reflection of the fact that American society, or the American military at least, is "riding off in all directions". But I still think he is or was decidely the lesser of two evils, at least at the time of the election; moot whether that still holds.

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Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#18994

Post by Easy J » Sun Jun 18, 2017 6:39 pm

Found her on a Facebook dating group. I don't like to stereotype or draw too many inferences, but I'm just gonna watch from the sidelines for a round or two:
problem glasses.png
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Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#18995

Post by Easy J » Sun Jun 18, 2017 6:40 pm

Yeah. I bungled that on the right.

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Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#18996

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sun Jun 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Easy J wrote:Found her on a Facebook dating group. I don't like to stereotype or draw too many inferences, but I'm just gonna watch from the sidelines for a round or two:
problem glasses.png
Suspicious camera angle. But, to be completely fair, tits.

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Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#18997

Post by Matt Cavanaugh » Sun Jun 18, 2017 6:45 pm

ThreeFlangedJavis wrote:
Brive1987 wrote:I suspect the Allies wanted to physically crush Germany, Carthage style, given the post 1919 experience and the need to de-nazify. Negotiation and handwaving were never going to be options. Consequently logistically difficult strategies, thus orientated, were a distraction.
Exactly. There was not to be a shred of doubt about who lost, no scapegoating of fifth columns, and the experience was to be made too traumatic for any thoughts of a re-match to be entertained. It couldn't have been any other way given the enormity of the crime. Hitler wanted Total War and he got it. The Allies suppressed knowledge of the Nazi death camps precisely because they were after complete victory and did not want to get pressured into squandering time and resources on futile raids against the camps.
You contradict yourself. First, you say the punic destruction of Germany was necessary "given the enormity of the crime", by which I assume you mean the holocaust. But then you say the Allies "suppressed knowledge" of the holocaust to allow them to drag out the war.

It was incredibly stupid to wipe out Germany, incredibly stupid to think the Soviets could be managed or even trusted. Sound Realpolitik would've been to encourage the establishment of a post-nazi Germany that was democratic, peaceful, friendly to the West -- and strong enough to serve as a counter-balance to the USSR. The anti-Hitler conspiracy offered all of that.

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Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#18998

Post by Easy J » Sun Jun 18, 2017 6:49 pm

Also, biopsyche & no mention of sociology or related degrees. Hopefully optomistic?

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Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#18999

Post by free thoughtpolice » Sun Jun 18, 2017 7:17 pm

Easy J wrote:Also, biopsyche & no mention of sociology or related degrees. Hopefully optomistic?
THE GLASSES! Beware.

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Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#19000

Post by d4m10n » Sun Jun 18, 2017 7:27 pm

TheMudbrooker wrote:
Brive1987 wrote:
I see I am dealing with fools.
You've just now noticed?
Wiseassery aside, the operation to take out Heydrich and the fact that he, of all the possible Nazis, was the only one targeted for assassination is one of the most fascinating episodes of the war.
Has anyone seen the film dramatization Anthropoid yet? I enjoyed it, even though the ending was foregone.

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Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#19001

Post by Brive1987 » Sun Jun 18, 2017 8:36 pm

Matt Cavanaugh wrote:
Both Harris' Bomber Command and the 'Bomber Mafia' of the USAAF were so fixated on Douhetian theory they developed extreme tunnel vision. They couldn't even manage to provide the invasion of Sicily with air support, so a raid like this was probably inconceivable for them.

The OSS guys were constantly urging to support the anti-Hitler conspiracy but were rebuffed by Washington.

The unconditional surrender decree directly hindered efforts to get some of the more stodgy and cautious senior officers on board with the coup.

As for the need to de-nazify, the conspiracy's post-coup government was going to handle that.
On the one hand the allies had no issue with assassination. Heydrich and Yamamoto' deaths broke that taboo and there were numerous real plans directed against Rommel.

And the Allies managed to overcome their 1000 bomber tunnel vision with ops against the Tirpitz and various special interest bridges. True, anything bigger was an issue, witness the tears over the use of heavy bombers for D-Day. So I'd agree "Let's kill Hitler" would not have sprung from RAF/USAAF circles.

I think the real political reticence was implicit and unconscious. The German people (as Churchill put it) had to be defeated. And be seen to be defeated. The Allies needed full flexibility to chain up the repeat mad-dog nation in whatever manner they deemed fit. As part of this, Nazism had to be put to the sword by its external foes. And this humiliation was a precondition for denazification.

Further, by 1944 it was too late to try and establish some form of moral distinction between NSDAP and High Command. Kill Hitler and get .... Keitel? fan-boy Rommel?

So killing Hitler while German armies were (once again) still standing everywhere on foreign soil would simply be a major complication. You only achieve peas in a pod with leverage.

That said there was no excuse for not even trying to bomb the auschwitz railheads. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

http://i.imgur.com/Oomybw7.jpg

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Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#19002

Post by Brive1987 » Sun Jun 18, 2017 8:51 pm

So Matt, no victors justice at Nuremberg? What of all the Nazis who suddenly had no cause to kill themselves? How does a negotiated peace with honour work for a nation which celebrated the fall of France with such abandonment? What of the Wehrmacht / SS Venn diagram?

Germany had to go to the naughty corner and have the finger of shame pointed its way for any sense to be made of the previous 12 years or so.

Further, where would the German borders go back to in 1945'if you couldnt evict 5 million krauts from "Poland" and march the dotted line westwards?

In any case the neutered FRG provided a pretty good bulwark against the east didn't it? While the east / west divide was an ongoing demonstration of the fruits to be reaped from aggressive war.

Bah humbug. It's not like Germany didn't eventually get to own Europe. And they can have it.

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Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#19003

Post by Brive1987 » Sun Jun 18, 2017 8:53 pm

d4m10n wrote:
TheMudbrooker wrote:
Brive1987 wrote:
I see I am dealing with fools.
You've just now noticed?
Wiseassery aside, the operation to take out Heydrich and the fact that he, of all the possible Nazis, was the only one targeted for assassination is one of the most fascinating episodes of the war.
Has anyone seen the film dramatization Anthropoid yet? I enjoyed it, even though the ending was foregone.
I'd watch it if I could find it.

The 1964 version was shot on sight :rimshot: - before the roads were remade.

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Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#19004

Post by rayshul » Sun Jun 18, 2017 9:10 pm

Ooohhhh I wonder if we got a bona fide RACE WAR on our hands

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Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#19005

Post by dog puke » Sun Jun 18, 2017 9:48 pm

Why do you shitlords always call her beckybooze?

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Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#19006

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sun Jun 18, 2017 9:59 pm

free thoughtpolice wrote:
Easy J wrote:Also, biopsyche & no mention of sociology or related degrees. Hopefully optomistic?
THE GLASSES! Beware.
Do I really have to bring up tits again? Because I honestly don't mind. Tits.

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Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#19007

Post by Kirbmarc » Sun Jun 18, 2017 10:00 pm

dog puke wrote: Why do you shitlords always call her beckybooze?
Terrible-istan? Islamophobia! :lol:

To be fair, though, I think that given her love for alcohol she's not too much of an Islamophile, not to HuffPo levels anyway. She could care less about the "muslimas", but don't you dare take her drinks away!

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Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#19008

Post by Kirbmarc » Sun Jun 18, 2017 10:17 pm

Steersman wrote: <snip>

As you suggested or argued earlier, Trump - with his frequent volte-faces or wearing egg on his own as a result of his own comments/tweets about Qatar, is looking more and more like the proverbial loose cannon. Although that might be a reflection of the fact that American society, or the American military at least, is "riding off in all directions".
Probably. There surely is a disconnect between the US intelligence community and the Pentagon about their operations in Syria. Trump, however, simply doesn't understand that tweeting whatever brainfart passes through his mind is not a sound foreign policy. SOmebody should get him off twitter.
But I still think he is or was decidely the lesser of two evils, at least at the time of the election; moot whether that still holds.
It's a moot point by now. He WON, he's the Goddamn President, there's no point in wondering whether he was the lesser of the evils.

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Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#19009

Post by Guest_84d94f98 » Sun Jun 18, 2017 10:54 pm

Wild guess: The mosque van driver attack was the father of one of the girls either killed or significantly injured in the Manchester bombing.
-Soylent

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Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#19010

Post by feathers » Sun Jun 18, 2017 10:59 pm

free thoughtpolice wrote:US just shot down a Syrian plane:
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/us-sh ... le/2626344
Syrian ground forces attacked US supported rebels, American planes buzzed the Syrians, forcing them back without firing on them or bombing them, and the Syrians sent in a plane to bomb the pro US rebels. That got shot down.
Wait, can you make a diagram of this?

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Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#19011

Post by Steersman » Sun Jun 18, 2017 11:05 pm

rayshul wrote:Ooohhhh I wonder if we got a bona fide RACE WAR on our hands
Just an addition to the statistics for murder and mayhem on the roads - so says the Mayor of London:

Though of course Islam not really a race but a rather barbaric and savage if not psychotic political & religious political ideology; hard to imagine - short of the "religion" of the Aztecs - a worse manifestation. Wonder how many more attacks by Muslims it will take before we realize that we have the proverbial "clash of civilizations", although it's rather moot whether term really applies to Islamic cultures.

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Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#19012

Post by Oglebart » Sun Jun 18, 2017 11:08 pm

Fucking news outlets throwing the I word around with abandon (Islamphobia). Surely now the best thing is to carry on as normal, right?

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Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#19013

Post by MarcusAu » Sun Jun 18, 2017 11:12 pm

Kirbmarc wrote:
dog puke wrote: Why do you shitlords always call her beckybooze?
Terrible-istan? Islamophobia! :lol:

To be fair, though, I think that given her love for alcohol she's not too much of an Islamophile, not to HuffPo levels anyway. She could care less about the "muslimas", but don't you dare take her drinks away!
She will never miss an opportunity to talk about herself, usually in the context of drinking (it's what all the cool kids are doing after all).

I'm not sure that's quite what they had in mind when they came up with the idea 'the personal is political'.

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Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#19014

Post by feathers » Sun Jun 18, 2017 11:21 pm

Shatterface wrote:
Tigzy wrote:According to twitter, the muslims were killed by a racist white guy and Tommy Robinson is to blame.
This kind of thing never happened before Brexit.
Or the invention of the steam engine.

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Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#19015

Post by Steersman » Sun Jun 18, 2017 11:29 pm

Kirbmarc wrote:
Steersman wrote: <snip>

As you suggested or argued earlier, Trump - with his frequent volte-faces or wearing egg on his own as a result of his own comments/tweets about Qatar, is looking more and more like the proverbial loose cannon. Although that might be a reflection of the fact that American society, or the American military at least, is "riding off in all directions".
Probably. There surely is a disconnect between the US intelligence community and the Pentagon about their operations in Syria. Trump, however, simply doesn't understand that tweeting whatever brainfart passes through his mind is not a sound foreign policy. Somebody should get him off twitter.
Generally of two minds about that. Tend to think of him, as others have styled him, as the proverbial bull in the china shop wrecking all the set pieces of The Establishment and of the Military-Industrial Complex. As the Qatar incident suggests, he highlights the rather odious and self-serving hypocrisy of American foreign policy in particular, to be selling high-tech equipment to a regime that's peddling the most odious and barbaric political and religious ideology imaginable: short-term gain, long-term pain. Impractical I expect but figure that Russia and the US should get together and bomb the whole Middle East back to the Stone Age - short trip for most there.
Kirbmarc wrote:
Steersman wrote:But I still think he is or was decidely the lesser of two evils, at least at the time of the election; moot whether that still holds.
It's a moot point by now. He WON, he's the Goddamn President, there's no point in wondering whether he was the lesser of the evils.
I didn't phrase that very well: not disputing that he's Prez nor really wondering whether he was the lesser of two evils then; just meant to suggest or argue that for all his obvious flaws he may still be less "evil" now than all of the other possibilities on tap, assuming that he might be impeached or forced to resign or forced to bend the knee to "conventional wisdom". Seems that both the Democratic & Republican "Establishments" and their "principles" have been co-opted by big business, by the infamous military-industrial complex; seems only Trump is able to shake things up enough to maybe rein in those groups even if that's a long shot.

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Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#19016

Post by shoutinghorse » Sun Jun 18, 2017 11:35 pm

Kirbmarc wrote:
dog puke wrote: Why do you shitlords always call her beckybooze?
Terrible-istan? Islamophobia! :lol:

To be fair, though, I think that given her love for alcohol she's not too much of an Islamophile, not to HuffPo levels anyway. She could care less about the "muslimas", but don't you dare take her drinks away!
Wouldn't this affect her health insurance policy?

http://i.imgur.com/iG6Wi39.png?1

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Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#19017

Post by feathers » Sun Jun 18, 2017 11:42 pm

Matt Cavanaugh wrote:It was incredibly stupid to wipe out Germany, incredibly stupid to think the Soviets could be managed or even trusted. Sound Realpolitik would've been to encourage the establishment of a post-nazi Germany that was democratic, peaceful, friendly to the West -- and strong enough to serve as a counter-balance to the USSR. The anti-Hitler conspiracy offered all of that.
I'm not so certain about that. His place would likely have been filled by the other sabre rattlers from the Reichswehr who would have established a military dictatorship sans the international aggression, à la Spain.

Also, I doubt the Russians would have stopped their onslaught within the sight of Berlin.

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Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#19018

Post by Shatterface » Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:21 am

So, chances of the mosque organizing a pop concert to bring communities together in peace and love, vs rioting?

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Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#19019

Post by Brive1987 » Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:28 am

dog puke wrote: Why do you shitlords always call her beckybooze?
Becky should show us how cool she is by adding Vicodin to her drug cocktail. For shit-giggles.

Just do it.

.................................

Only squares would accept kill joy advice:
Particularly harmful is pairing the anti-anxiety drug Xanax with alcohol. Like alcohol, it acts on the hypothalamus in the brain and slows breathing, heart rate, body temperature and blood pressure. The additive effect of using both Xanax and alcohol can slow these necessary bodily functions to a dangerous degree. Xanax also acts more quickly than other sedatives, which poses yet another hazard when combining it with alcohol.

Mixing drugs and alcohol is always risky, but these particular combinations are the most dangerous and can be fatal. If you have been prescribed any of these medications, take seriously the warning to avoid alcohol. And if you abuse these medications with alcohol, now is the time to stop, before it’s too late.
Lorazepam may interact synergistically with the effects of alcohol, narcotics, or other psychoactive substances. It should, therefore, not be administered to a drunk or intoxicated person.

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Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#19020

Post by Guest_84d94f98 » Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:28 am

You know the worst thing about that guy driving a van through a crowd of people at Finsbury Park? #CulturalAppropriation

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