Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

Old subthreads
Kirbmarc
.
.
Posts: 10577
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 8:29 am

Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#17581

Post by Kirbmarc »

AndrewV69 wrote:Zubin Madon has the perfect response to the Islamophilic truth haters
I’ve written this headline exactly as PuffHo would have written it—if they had any rationality. In fact, by some twist of fate the subject of my post, an article by Zubin Madon, an engineer and humanist living in Bombay, India, did appear in the April 2016 PuffHo, and undercuts everything they have written denying the nasty bits of Islamic doctrine and the influence of that faith on terrorism. (PuffHo’s religion editor, Carol Kuruvilla, writes post after post telling us how wonderful Islam is and that we should ignore the man with the bomb behind the curtain).
Shia Islam has a reformer apparently. From his profile
Revisionist, Reformer & Imam of Peace
May as well as well add Innovation and Deviation to the list (I will let Kirbmac explain the implications)
Basically what Andrew is alluding to here is bid'ah which is, for many muslims, strictly forbidden by the Qu'ran itself, specifically by this passage:
Quran, 5:4 wrote:“Today I have completed for you your religion and perfected my favor upon you and have chosen Islam as your Religion”
This is Allah talking, and basically saying, according to most readings of the Qu'ran, that islam is perfect the way it is. Salafi/Wahabi are particularly opposed to bid'ah, they're often yelling bid'ah at the most minute changes to any single practice of islam, which they consider a terrible sin.

But even in Shia islam (Tawhidi is Shia) bid'ah isn't looked at with much favor. Shia muslims are rarely as fastidious about any minutia of practice staying completely the same forever and ever, but they are very much against what is explicitly prohibited by the Qu'ran and the ahadith they accept as true. So for Tawhidi to come out and say that the problem is with the scriptures is, let's say, unusual at best. More power to him if he genuinely wants to change islam from within, but he has just painted a big target on the back of his head (although I'm wondering which "scriptures" he deems non-trustworthy...never mind).

So yes, this is a big deal. I think that that some Shia clerics could be imprisoned in Iran for saying what Tawhidi said. I'm not sure if this has already happened (I don't know much about Iran, to be fair), but it likely has.

Kirbmarc
.
.
Posts: 10577
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 8:29 am

Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#17582

Post by Kirbmarc »

Billie from Ockham wrote:I'm thinking of a particular talk that he gave (at Sante Fe), where he clearly (to me) played games because he wanted to be able to punish people for their bad actions. He forced himself into this by first making that point that punishment only seems rational if people have free will. He completely ignored the alternative way to justify punishment: by citing operant conditioning. It was a terrible talk (again, from my POV) and has stuck in my mind ever since.
This is something that baffles me. I think that the main reason why many philosophers want free will to exist is that they think that without free will there is no point in personal responsibility. However, as you say, you don't need free will to explain personal responsibility, you only need to point out the effects of conditioning, of punishments and of rewards (which are often forgotten).

Incidentally operant conditioning explains much better why we need proportionate punishment: too little or too much punishment has negative effects on conditioning people (teaching them they can get away with bad things or that they're doomed to their life being ruined no matter what) so we should try to find the right balance to improve the effects of our conditioning.

The only major side effect of abandoning our ideas about the justification of free will is that it affects our emotions about punishing people. If we're on the bleeding heart side knowing that there's no "libertarian free will", only the possibility of freedom from external coercion, is pretty bad, since we can easily see criminals only as victims of their screwed genes or screwed environment, and wonder what gives us the right to punish them.

The best answers to "what gives us the right to judge" usually include references to a social pact which don't sit well with anarchists or with some libertarians (both on the left and on the right).

I don't have a problem with the idea of a social pact, but then again I'm not an anarchist, I actually think anarchy is a pipe dream.

windy
.
.
Posts: 2140
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:41 am
Location: Tom of Finland-land

Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#17583

Post by windy »

Billie from Ockham wrote:
gurugeorge wrote:
Billie from Ockham wrote:As someone who is both a Dennett fan and someone who believes that he played games with definitions in that particular area, that was fun. Thanks.
It's a funny skit, but I don't see how Dennett "played games with definitions."
I'm thinking of a particular talk that he gave (at Sante Fe), where he clearly (to me) played games because he wanted to be able to punish people for their bad actions. He forced himself into this by first making that point that punishment only seems rational if people have free will. He completely ignored the alternative way to justify punishment: by citing operant conditioning. It was a terrible talk (again, from my POV) and has stuck in my mind ever since.
Are you arguing that Dennett had a choice in whether and how he justifies punishment? :think:

Shatterface
.
.
Posts: 5898
Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2014 2:05 pm

Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#17584

Post by Shatterface »

Billie from Ockham wrote:
jet_lagg wrote:For the Dennett fans (and haters).

http://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/14968 ... %20(1).png
As someone who is both a Dennett fan and someone who believes that he played games with definitions in that particular area, that was fun. Thanks.
I thought it was a Steersbot-level analogy fail. Birds evolved from dinosaurs. Dennett wrote a book called Freedom Evolves. Scene 1 just illustrates his point.

Scene 2 would only work as an analogy for Scene 1 if Scene 1 hadn't featured a bird at all and the guy with the beard just wanted to talk about dinosaurs.

You could remake the strip for comparibalism by having the beardy tempt the kid with dinosaurs, then rape him, claim he didn't have a choice, and that there's no such thing as freely given consent anyway.

shoutinghorse
.
.
Posts: 2649
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2017 6:01 am

Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#17585

Post by shoutinghorse »

Working well so far :roll:

Shatterface
.
.
Posts: 5898
Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2014 2:05 pm

Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#17586

Post by Shatterface »

Billie from Ockham wrote:I'm thinking of a particular talk that he gave (at Sante Fe), where he clearly (to me) played games because he wanted to be able to punish people for their bad actions. He forced himself into this by first making that point that punishment only seems rational if people have free will. He completely ignored the alternative way to justify punishment: by citing operant conditioning. It was a terrible talk (again, from my POV) and has stuck in my mind ever since.
Either argument is an argument from consequences.

If we can accept arguments from consequences then determinism can't provide an argument why we should oppose, say, religious compulsion. If your behaviour is not a matter of choice then what does it matter whether that determination is genetics or religious law?

And I can't stand the smug 'free will is just a mask for religion' argument. There are plenty of deterministic religions like Calvinism and atheists have used the argument that free will is incompatible with omniscience to deny the existence of God.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_free_will

Shatterface
.
.
Posts: 5898
Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2014 2:05 pm

Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#17587

Post by Shatterface »

shoutinghorse wrote:Working well so far :roll:
Is that the brave an beautiful Danielle Muscato looking over her left shoulder? And sandwiched between him her and the black guy - surely that's not Watson's younger, less splodgelike sister?

Shatterface
.
.
Posts: 5898
Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2014 2:05 pm

Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#17588

Post by Shatterface »

Kirbmarc wrote:The only major side effect of abandoning our ideas about the justification of free will is that it affects our emotions about punishing people. If we're on the bleeding heart side knowing that there's no "libertarian free will", only the possibility of freedom from external coercion, is pretty bad, since we can easily see criminals only as victims of their screwed genes or screwed environment, and wonder what gives us the right to punish them.
I think when you get to the level of abstraction that says that there's no free will, it's all just atoms, you might as well admit that consciousness and emotions are just biochemical processes too. The Self is just an illusion.

Kirbmarc
.
.
Posts: 10577
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 8:29 am

Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#17589

Post by Kirbmarc »

Shatterface wrote:
Kirbmarc wrote:The only major side effect of abandoning our ideas about the justification of free will is that it affects our emotions about punishing people. If we're on the bleeding heart side knowing that there's no "libertarian free will", only the possibility of freedom from external coercion, is pretty bad, since we can easily see criminals only as victims of their screwed genes or screwed environment, and wonder what gives us the right to punish them.
I think when you get to the level of abstraction that says that there's no free will, it's all just atoms, you might as well admit that consciousness and emotions are just biochemical processes too. The Self is just an illusion.
Yup. Still, it's an illusion that has effects on behavior, just like the illusion of free will.

free thoughtpolice
.
.
Posts: 11165
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2012 4:27 pm

Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#17590

Post by free thoughtpolice »

An interesting article on the ISIS attack on Tehran and an overview on the relationship between al Qaeda, ISIS, and Iran:
http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/ ... e-iran.php

Guest_440911e7

Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#17591

Post by Guest_440911e7 »

Absolutely horrible gedanken experiment comes to real life:

cbsnews com/news/weis-supermarket-shooting-gunman-posted-video-describing-plan/
Weis supermarket shooting gunman posted video describing plan

A man who police say trapped and killed three co-workers inside a closed northeast Pennsylvania grocery store overnight Thursday left an online trail behind that includes praise for the 1999 Columbine High School shooters and expressions of deep frustration about the world around him.

Wyoming County District Attorney Jeff Mitchell said a Twitter feed that includes a 42-minute film about a violent massacre, posted about the time of the killings, is believed to have belonged to 24-year-old Randy Stair of Dallas, Pennsylvania.

In that film, Stair praised Columbine shooters Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold as heroes and kissed and fondled a loaded shotgun.

Police say Stair brought two pistol-grip shotguns to work at the Weis store in rural Tunkhannock, about 150 miles northwest of New York City, blocked store exits and began shooting shortly before 1 a.m. A fourth co-worker eventually escaped unharmed and called police. Stair also killed himself.
So this is obviously a case of toxic masculinity and guns, but wait, there's more.
"This is really a mental health situation that utterly spiraled out of control," Mitchell said. "I think he had longstanding mental health issues that resulted in this horrible tragedy."

State police said he spent the first 90 minutes of his shift blocking exits with pallets and other items. After the store closed Stair retrieved a duffel bag from his car with the two shotguns, and began his attack.

He killed Terry Sterling, 63, of South Montrose; Victoria Brong, 26, of Factoryville; and Brian Hayes, 47, of Springville.

"It's just unspeakable, it really is," Mitchell said. "These people went to work and they lost their lives because they went to work. It's senseless."

He said Stair apparently did not like one of the victims, the night manager. It wasn't immediately clear which of the victims held that job.

"Ironically, the night manager apparently liked him," Mitchell said.

Mitchell said Stair also shot up the store, damaging merchandise, counters and other parts of the interior as he fired a total of 59 rounds.

The prosecutor said the three victims had already been murdered when the fourth worker was able to get out. Mitchell said Stair apparently saw her.

"For whatever reason, he did not shoot at her and she was able to escape," Mitchell said.

On his Twitter home page, Stair wrote: "I had to die in order to truly live. Speaking from before and beyond the grave."
Come on, if Randy had been muslim we would call this terrorism, yet because he is white, he is "mentally ill."

But wait, there's more.
Stair posted a slew of material under the name Andrew Blaze on Twitter and YouTube, including his own anime videos
Anime! Fucking asshole is probably a gamergater. Fucking videogames.
His 42-minute film, "The Westborough High Massacre/Goodbye," was apparently posted with other material on Twitter about the time of the attack.

It begins with a bitter narrative about his frustration over not getting help or the response he wanted to produce the film.

"I've been stepped on my whole life; not anymore. ...I've had enough of this putrid planet and I'm going to leave my mark," he wrote in the film.

The message, Mitchell said, was "that he was not going to be alive anymore and that he left some DVDs and journals for the family." He said Stair lived with his parents and brother, whom Mitchell described as distraught and devastated.

He also posted a video, recorded May 11, describing his attack plans in detail, including how he would block the doors, who would be working that night and the importance of making sure the killings were caught on surveillance video.

In it he also laments the tight timeframe he would have to block exits, post all his documents and videos on social media and then kill everyone.

In a recent writing, Stair expressed "extreme loneliness," a sense of detachment from the world and frustration at not being able to make or keep friends or relationships, Mitchell said.
White fragility, and toxic masculinity, and loose gun control, make for this entitled, Elliot Rodger attitude.

But here's where the gendanken experiment hits the road.

Looking into the camera, wearing a black beanie and black T-shirt, he talked about his obsession with a Nickelodeon cartoon character named "Ember" and said that in 2013 he started cross-dressing, "which is something you never knew I did."

He said he would dress as a woman on Wednesday nights, when his parents went bowling, and secretly wanted a sex change operation.

"I was just a female soul trapped in a man's body my whole life," he said.

Stair expressed a similar sentiment in a journal entry dated Monday, adding that he was ready to die, CBS Scranton affiliate WYOU-TV reports.

"The girl in me is clawing to get out," he wrote. "62 more hours."

Behind him hanging on the wall were framed pictures of his anime creations, "Ember's Ghost Squad," a keyboard and headphones.

"I was put here in this body, I'm going to have to live in this body until I die," he said.

His last tweet read: "Goodbye humans ...I'll miss you...."
thesociologicalcinema com/blog/the-not-so-hidden-transphobia-in-silence-of-the-lambs
archives.sfweekly com/exhibitionist/2015/08/05/new-on-video-an-open-letter-to-brian-de-palmas-transphobic-dressed-to-kill

So...

How will Team SocJus discuss Randy Stair's outrageous murders? As terrorism, toxic masculinity, mental illness, or what?

Kirbmarc
.
.
Posts: 10577
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 8:29 am

Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#17592

Post by Kirbmarc »

Shatterface wrote:
Billie from Ockham wrote:I'm thinking of a particular talk that he gave (at Sante Fe), where he clearly (to me) played games because he wanted to be able to punish people for their bad actions. He forced himself into this by first making that point that punishment only seems rational if people have free will. He completely ignored the alternative way to justify punishment: by citing operant conditioning. It was a terrible talk (again, from my POV) and has stuck in my mind ever since.
Either argument is an argument from consequences.

If we can accept arguments from consequences then determinism can't provide an argument why we should oppose, say, religious compulsion. If your behaviour is not a matter of choice then what does it matter whether that determination is genetics or religious law?
It matters because the effects of external imposition are very different from those of genetic determination.

free thoughtpolice
.
.
Posts: 11165
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2012 4:27 pm

Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#17593

Post by free thoughtpolice »

How will Team SocJus discuss Randy Stair's outrageous murders? As terrorism, toxic masculinity, mental illness, or what?
Justifiable homicide by punching up at cis scum hetero transphobes.

Kirbmarc
.
.
Posts: 10577
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 8:29 am

Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#17594

Post by Kirbmarc »

free thoughtpolice wrote:An interesting article on the ISIS attack on Tehran and an overview on the relationship between al Qaeda, ISIS, and Iran:
http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/ ... e-iran.php
Interesting, thanks for sharing. I wonder how this plays out with those organizations' sponsors and the Saudi/Qatari split. Is it possible that Qatar might finance Al-Qaeda now more than ISIS, and vice versa for the Saudis, since ISIS targeted Iran?

Shatterface
.
.
Posts: 5898
Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2014 2:05 pm

Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#17595

Post by Shatterface »

Kirbmarc wrote:It matters because the effects of external imposition are very different from those of genetic determination.
How so? Why are the more insidious deterministic effects of genetics and environmental conditioning less deplorable than an honest gun to the head?

Or, less dramatic, what's wrong with brainwashing? Not the violent Room 101 kind but the love-bombing cults employ? Or the subtle emotional manipulations of advertising? In these cases you actually gain consent.

Billie from Ockham
.
.
Posts: 5470
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2014 1:40 pm
Contact:

Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#17596

Post by Billie from Ockham »

Kirbmarc wrote:Incidentally operant conditioning explains much better why we need proportionate punishment: too little or too much punishment has negative effects on conditioning people (teaching them they can get away with bad things or that they're doomed to their life being ruined no matter what) so we should try to find the right balance to improve the effects of our conditioning.
On the flip side, any reference to operant conditioning in a culture with fancy due process is faulty because punishment (in the technical sense of a negative event after an action with the goal of reducing the likelihood of the action being repeated) only works when the delay between the action to be "stamped out" and the negative consequence is short. Oddly enough, the operant conditioning justification for criminal punishment only really works in cultures with little or no due process, such as those set up by the Taliban. Yeah, that's correct: Taliban "justice" enjoys more support from psychology than Western "justice."

Shatterface
.
.
Posts: 5898
Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2014 2:05 pm

Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#17597

Post by Shatterface »

free thoughtpolice wrote:
How will Team SocJus discuss Randy Stair's outrageous murders? As terrorism, toxic masculinity, mental illness, or what?
Justifiable homicide by punching up at cis scum hetero transphobes.
Internalised transmysogyny. Apparently it happens even if they haven't turned your dick inside out.

Billie from Ockham
.
.
Posts: 5470
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2014 1:40 pm
Contact:

Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#17598

Post by Billie from Ockham »

Shatterface wrote:I think when you get to the level of abstraction that says that there's no free will, it's all just atoms, you might as well admit that consciousness and emotions are just biochemical processes too. The Self is just an illusion.
This reminds of when Crick's book came out and lots of psychologists were jokingly proposing alternative titles, which ranged from "The Astonishingly Obvious Hypothesis" to "The Astonishingly Stupid Hypothesis."

MarcusAu
.
.
Posts: 7903
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2016 11:49 am
Location: Llareggub

Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#17599

Post by MarcusAu »

Now I feel like rereading 'The Merchants of Venus'

Oglebart
.
.
Posts: 967
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2014 2:25 pm
Location: Ingerland

Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#17600

Post by Oglebart »

Kirbmarc wrote:
AndrewV69 wrote:Zubin Madon has the perfect response to the Islamophilic truth haters
I’ve written this headline exactly as PuffHo would have written it—if they had any rationality. In fact, by some twist of fate the subject of my post, an article by Zubin Madon, an engineer and humanist living in Bombay, India, did appear in the April 2016 PuffHo, and undercuts everything they have written denying the nasty bits of Islamic doctrine and the influence of that faith on terrorism. (PuffHo’s religion editor, Carol Kuruvilla, writes post after post telling us how wonderful Islam is and that we should ignore the man with the bomb behind the curtain).
Shia Islam has a reformer apparently. From his profile
Revisionist, Reformer & Imam of Peace
May as well as well add Innovation and Deviation to the list (I will let Kirbmac explain the implications)
Basically what Andrew is alluding to here is bid'ah which is, for many muslims, strictly forbidden by the Qu'ran itself, specifically by this passage:
Quran, 5:4 wrote:“Today I have completed for you your religion and perfected my favor upon you and have chosen Islam as your Religion”
This is Allah talking, and basically saying, according to most readings of the Qu'ran, that islam is perfect the way it is. Salafi/Wahabi are particularly opposed to bid'ah, they're often yelling bid'ah at the most minute changes to any single practice of islam, which they consider a terrible sin.

But even in Shia islam (Tawhidi is Shia) bid'ah isn't looked at with much favor. Shia muslims are rarely as fastidious about any minutia of practice staying completely the same forever and ever, but they are very much against what is explicitly prohibited by the Qu'ran and the ahadith they accept as true. So for Tawhidi to come out and say that the problem is with the scriptures is, let's say, unusual at best. More power to him if he genuinely wants to change islam from within, but he has just painted a big target on the back of his head (although I'm wondering which "scriptures" he deems non-trustworthy...never mind).

So yes, this is a big deal. I think that that some Shia clerics could be imprisoned in Iran for saying what Tawhidi said. I'm not sure if this has already happened (I don't know much about Iran, to be fair), but it likely has.
Well, that was always one of Hitch's killer points about islam as I remember it, something along the lines of " but islam makes a special claim for itself, the final, perfect word of god"

Something like that I think, of course with considerably more style ;)

Kirbmarc
.
.
Posts: 10577
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 8:29 am

Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#17601

Post by Kirbmarc »

Shatterface wrote:
Kirbmarc wrote:It matters because the effects of external imposition are very different from those of genetic determination.
How so? Why are the more insidious deterministic effects of genetics and environmental conditioning less deplorable than an honest gun to the head?
Imposition through force produces reactions which in the long term undermine any possible positive effect. You can't accomplish positive effects through force, force breeds fear and/or resentment, not acceptance.
Or, less dramatic, what's wrong with brainwashing? Not the violent Room 101 kind but the love-bombing cults employ? Or the subtle emotional manipulations of advertising? In these cases you actually gain consent.
The backlash of brainwashing is reduced cognitive flexibility, which is a big negative in the long run (dogmatism, lack of adaptation, etc.). Ads aren't as bad, but it depends on what you're selling.

Guest_440911e7

Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#17602

Post by Guest_440911e7 »

Sorry about forgetting Psycho and Ace Ventura.
And re: Psycho, in the TV Series last year, they eliminated the transvestism

heatst com/culture-wars/bates-motel-showrunners-redo-iconic-hitchcock-scene-to-eliminate-its-transphobia/
(More on Ed Gein: wikipedia org/wiki/Ed_Gein)
When questioned, Gein told investigators that between 1947 and 1952,[37] he made as many as 40 nocturnal visits to three local graveyards to exhume recently buried bodies while he was in a "daze-like" state. On about 30 of those visits, he said he came out of the daze while in the cemetery, left the grave in good order, and returned home empty-handed.[38] On the other occasions, he dug up the graves of recently buried middle-aged women he thought resembled his mother[39] and took the bodies home, where he tanned their skins to make his paraphernalia.

Gein admitted to stealing from nine graves, leading investigators to their locations. Because authorities were uncertain as to whether the slight Gein was capable of single-handedly digging up a grave during a single evening, they exhumed two of the graves and found them empty (one had a crowbar in place of the body), thus apparently corroborating Gein's confession.[40][41] Allan Wilimovsky of the state crime laboratory participated in opening three test graves identified by Gein. The caskets were inside wooden boxes; the top boards ran crossways (not lengthwise). The tops of the boxes were about two feet (60 cm) below the surface in sandy soil. Gein had robbed the graves soon after the funerals while the graves were not completed. They were found as Gein described: One casket was empty, one Gein had failed to open when he lost his pry bar, and most of the body was gone from the third, but Gein had returned rings and some body parts.[42]

Soon after his mother's death, Gein began to create a "woman suit" so that "...he could become his mother—to literally crawl into her skin".[23] Gein denied having sex with the bodies he exhumed, explaining: "They smelled too bad.

Spike13
.
.
Posts: 3014
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 3:40 pm
Location: Dirty Jersey, on the Chemical Coast

Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#17603

Post by Spike13 »

shoutinghorse wrote:Working well so far :roll:

oh Christ... once their periods syncronize the UK is in for a ride.

Shatterface
.
.
Posts: 5898
Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2014 2:05 pm

Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#17604

Post by Shatterface »

Bates was never transgender. When he dressed as his mother he was his mother. He had created an alternate personality.

Transgenderism isn't supposed to be a dissociative personality disorder but if they keep bitching about Norman Bates, Dressed to Kill and Silence of the Lambs that's precisely what they make it look like.

Shatterface
.
.
Posts: 5898
Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2014 2:05 pm

Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#17605

Post by Shatterface »

Kirbmarc wrote:The backlash of brainwashing is reduced cognitive flexibility, which is a big negative in the long run (dogmatism, lack of adaptation, etc.). Ads aren't as bad, but it depends on what you're selling.
What about cults like Alcoholics Anonymous which can turn a wife-beating drunk into a productive - if annoying - member of society? Most of their techniques - public acts of confession and contrition, isolation from former friends, learnt dependency on the group, repetition of thought-terminating cliches - are standard brainwashing techniques.

jimthepleb
.
.
Posts: 2414
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:54 am
Location: you kay?

Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#17606

Post by jimthepleb »

DrokkIt wrote:
Sulman wrote:
There are definite echoes of Trump/Clinton in there, specifically the steadfast belief she had it in the bag. May's campaign has been entirely dreadful.

I'm quite torn, being an Expat. No love for the Tories, but as it stands the choice is no more NHS versus queuing for toilet paper in a few years.

My general appraisal of this is that Labour can't possibly deliver their promises should they win (don't think they will) but the Tories will certainly implement their awful ideas about censoring the internet and murdering the health service.

With that in mind, I hope the tories don't win. I'd take any kind of coalition (including tory/lib dem) over the abysmal May regime. I know a few conservatives who abstained because they think she sucks.

Overall, interesting times.
Be careful what you wish for. The DUP are cunts.
I spoiled my ballot rather than vote Tory this time. I've voted for all the major parties. Now I feel like a right twat.

windy
.
.
Posts: 2140
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:41 am
Location: Tom of Finland-land

Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#17607

Post by windy »

Kirbmarc wrote:
Billie from Ockham wrote:I'm thinking of a particular talk that he gave (at Sante Fe), where he clearly (to me) played games because he wanted to be able to punish people for their bad actions. He forced himself into this by first making that point that punishment only seems rational if people have free will. He completely ignored the alternative way to justify punishment: by citing operant conditioning. It was a terrible talk (again, from my POV) and has stuck in my mind ever since.
This is something that baffles me. I think that the main reason why many philosophers want free will to exist is that they think that without free will there is no point in personal responsibility. However, as you say, you don't need free will to explain personal responsibility, you only need to point out the effects of conditioning, of punishments and of rewards (which are often forgotten).

Incidentally operant conditioning explains much better why we need proportionate punishment: too little or too much punishment has negative effects on conditioning people (teaching them they can get away with bad things or that they're doomed to their life being ruined no matter what) so we should try to find the right balance to improve the effects of our conditioning.

The only major side effect of abandoning our ideas about the justification of free will is that it affects our emotions about punishing people. If we're on the bleeding heart side knowing that there's no "libertarian free will", only the possibility of freedom from external coercion, is pretty bad, since we can easily see criminals only as victims of their screwed genes or screwed environment, and wonder what gives us the right to punish them.
Why worry about justification, if in any case we're just acting out what our biology and conditioning tell us about punishing criminals? There seems to be a strange disconnect in these kinds of arguments, where criminals are argued to be only victims of their genes and environment, but the punishers (=the rest of society) are seen as moral agents with the responsibility to punish in the "right" way for the "right" reasons.

CaptainFluffyBunny
.
.
Posts: 7556
Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:39 am
Location: Somewhere in the pipes

Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#17608

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny »

windy wrote:
Kirbmarc wrote:
Billie from Ockham wrote:I'm thinking of a particular talk that he gave (at Sante Fe), where he clearly (to me) played games because he wanted to be able to punish people for their bad actions. He forced himself into this by first making that point that punishment only seems rational if people have free will. He completely ignored the alternative way to justify punishment: by citing operant conditioning. It was a terrible talk (again, from my POV) and has stuck in my mind ever since.
This is something that baffles me. I think that the main reason why many philosophers want free will to exist is that they think that without free will there is no point in personal responsibility. However, as you say, you don't need free will to explain personal responsibility, you only need to point out the effects of conditioning, of punishments and of rewards (which are often forgotten).

Incidentally operant conditioning explains much better why we need proportionate punishment: too little or too much punishment has negative effects on conditioning people (teaching them they can get away with bad things or that they're doomed to their life being ruined no matter what) so we should try to find the right balance to improve the effects of our conditioning.

The only major side effect of abandoning our ideas about the justification of free will is that it affects our emotions about punishing people. If we're on the bleeding heart side knowing that there's no "libertarian free will", only the possibility of freedom from external coercion, is pretty bad, since we can easily see criminals only as victims of their screwed genes or screwed environment, and wonder what gives us the right to punish them.
Why worry about justification, if in any case we're just acting out what our biology and conditioning tell us about punishing criminals? There seems to be a strange disconnect in these kinds of arguments, where criminals are argued to be only victims of their genes and environment, but the punishers (=the rest of society) are seen as moral agents with the responsibility to punish in the "right" way for the "right" reasons.
Goes back to the parent-child model, perhaps.

MarcusAu
.
.
Posts: 7903
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2016 11:49 am
Location: Llareggub

Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#17609

Post by MarcusAu »

Shatterface wrote:Bates was never transgender. When he dressed as his mother he was his mother. He had created an alternate personality.

Transgenderism isn't supposed to be a dissociative personality disorder but if they keep bitching about Norman Bates, Dressed to Kill and Silence of the Lambs that's precisely what they make it look like.
I'm sure that it's tangential to your point - but I always thought that as far as fucked up movies with Anthony Perkins go - 'Crimes of Passion' never gets it's due.

deLurch
.
.
Posts: 8447
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:11 am

Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#17610

Post by deLurch »

shoutinghorse wrote:Working well so far :roll:
I fail to see a problem with this. The people elected them.

Of interest is this:
first Sikh woman to be elected to Parliament.
If your officials are too much pansies to do anything about religiously based terrorism, might I suggest voting in a 100% Sikh parliament. They might be inclined to mop up that mess in short order.

Also, I find the hubris of Britian's elected leaders to be a bit humorous on both sides of the aisle. They ran the Brexit election because they thought it would never go through, yet that is exactly what happened. Now they wanted to do a show of force with an election to show a mandate from the people, and got their asses handed to them.

But I will give them full props for at least trying to be responsive to the wishes of their people.

jet_lagg
.
.
Posts: 2681
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 1:57 pm

Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#17611

Post by jet_lagg »

windy wrote: Why worry about justification, if in any case we're just acting out what our biology and conditioning tell us about punishing criminals? There seems to be a strange disconnect in these kinds of arguments, where criminals are argued to be only victims of their genes and environment, but the punishers (=the rest of society) are seen as moral agents with the responsibility to punish in the "right" way for the "right" reasons.
My question as well. Dennett on free will has come up at the pit before, and I'm always left baffled by what people do or do not find baffling. Once a person believes they've justified an act (through whatever framework is appropriate to them), I don't see what the sense is in asking them if they believe the act to be "right". It's even more confusing if the person doing the justifying were to ask the question of themselves.

Guest_440911e7

Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#17612

Post by Guest_440911e7 »

Bates was never transgender. When he dressed as his mother he was his mother. He had created an alternate personality.

Transgenderism isn't supposed to be a dissociative personality disorder but if they keep bitching about Norman Bates, Dressed to Kill and Silence of the Lambs that's precisely what they make it look like.
I think they actually talk about that with Ed Gein's as well, though since he was IRL and dead, it's impossible to know his actual motives.

But you're not even allowed to suggest that transvestism or worse transgenderism isn't anything but normal *and always has been*. I think one of the articles I linked called "The Crying Game" transphobic. THE CRYING GAME, where the whole point was about an IRA and transphobe meeting two people, one transgender, who totally change his point of view, and where he falls in love with the transwoman, and so the viewer is also challenged...

Oh yeah, Rocky Horror is transphobic too, because Rocky was portrayed as a transvestite and not as an empowerful transgendered woman taking control of her sexuality.

BarnOwl
.
.
Posts: 3311
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:18 pm
Location: The wrong trouser of Time

Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#17613

Post by BarnOwl »

Yet another Evergreen video; this one focused on the madcap antics of Professor Naima Lowe:

[youtube][/youtube]

Close-captioned for the SJW-impaired. Apart of the small dog being held hostage, I think the worst thing is the finger-snapping.

John D
.
.
Posts: 5966
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:23 am
Location: Detroit, MI. USA

Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#17614

Post by John D »

Sorry - I can't get this to work with the Youtube player... derf... but it is a video of 100 people swearing... so... yeah.


DrokkIt
.
.
Posts: 1327
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 4:01 pm
Location: Brit-Cit

Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#17615

Post by DrokkIt »

Za-zen wrote:
Can't the Tories ally themselves with the Lib-Dem instead? They've already done it under Cameron, and the Lib-Dem are nowhere nearly as "controversial" as the DUP. Sure, this would probably mean a compromise on the Sacred Hard Brexit and likely a Soft Brexit (leaving the EU, joining the EFTA, the same deal of Switzerland, Norway, Liechtenstein, Iceland) but Soft Brexit makes more sense than Hard Brexit anyway. Switzerland has pretty tough immigration and asylum laws, the UK can have them too if they stay in the EFTA.



The tories would love to pact with the lib dems. The lib dems learned that lesson with Cameron, and they aren't going to repeat it for a couple of generations. The Pact with the DUP is going to be hilarious. The DUP are nutbags, much of their nuttery wouldn't bleed into the national stage, as i can't see the DUP demanding the tories repeal same sex marriage, but i'd love to see the national media spotlight finally take a look at the insane creationists and pure undistilled sectarian bigots which make up their party.

It will potentially cause issues in the North, as the devolved parliament is currently suspended, with talks ongoing, and you can bet your ass the DUP will be orgasmic at the idea of having May as their dog in that fight.
Yeah exactly. I would not be surprised to learn the tories had tried anyone to agree before the DUP. It looks terrible for them in the rest of the UK, same as if Labour teamed with Sinn Fein.

jimthepleb
.
.
Posts: 2414
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:54 am
Location: you kay?

Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#17616

Post by jimthepleb »

BarnOwl wrote:Yet another Evergreen video; this one focused on the madcap antics of Professor Naima Lowe:

[youtube][/youtube]

Close-captioned for the SJW-impaired. Apart of the small dog being held hostage, I think the worst thing is the finger-snapping.
This bitch can't rap for shit. She got no flow.

CommanderTuvok
.
.
Posts: 3744
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 1:18 pm

Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#17617

Post by CommanderTuvok »

Shatterface wrote:
CommanderTuvok wrote:Fucking hell. Indy looked cute when Twatson first got him, now he is resembling a fucking sheep.

SJWs and Baboons have a history of treating animals badly.
This'll cheer you up.

Geordie comedian Sarah Millican had a dog.

It appeared with her on 8 Out of 10 Cats Does Countdown last night.

[img].http://standardissuemagazine.com/applic ... Tuvok2.jpg[/img]

It's name is... Commander Tuvok.



http://standardissuemagazine.com/lifest ... ter-tuvok/
Brilliant!

:lol:

CommanderTuvok
.
.
Posts: 3744
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 1:18 pm

Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#17618

Post by CommanderTuvok »

Matt Cavanaugh wrote:OK, Britainers, tell us true -- Diane Abbott is a mong, right? And I mean a literal mong: Downs, a retard.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3741280/d ... sing-lies/
Yes, she is a mong.

And a race-baiter who hates white people. Although pointing this out, makes you a racist. Obviously.

MarcusAu
.
.
Posts: 7903
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2016 11:49 am
Location: Llareggub

Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#17619

Post by MarcusAu »

John D wrote:Sorry - I can't get this to work with the Youtube player... derf... but it is a video of 100 people swearing... so... yeah.

This should do the trick (no &t=16s at the end)

[youtube][/youtube]


I think it's best left to the professionals though

[youtube][/youtube]

BarnOwl
.
.
Posts: 3311
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:18 pm
Location: The wrong trouser of Time

Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#17620

Post by BarnOwl »

jimthepleb wrote: This bitch can't rap for shit. She got no flow.
That's because she's so goddamned tired!

It's hilarious that the video uses Partridge Family music, because the redhead that appears towards the end of the video looks like Danny Bonaduce. Xe is also one of the baseball bat-wielders, and is front and center in many of the protester vids.

The dog's name is White Microaggressions, and it uses xe/xir pronouns.

MarcusAu
.
.
Posts: 7903
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2016 11:49 am
Location: Llareggub

Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#17621

Post by MarcusAu »

Have you seen an increase in such activity where you work BarnOwl or are the students holding their collective breath and waiting to see how it works out at the other locations?

BarnOwl
.
.
Posts: 3311
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:18 pm
Location: The wrong trouser of Time

Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#17622

Post by BarnOwl »

MarcusAu wrote:Have you seen an increase in such activity where you work BarnOwl or are the students holding their collective breath and waiting to see how it works out at the other locations?
I'm at a medical & dental school (attend after 4 years of university in the US), so the students are older and (usually) more mature and less self-involved. Social justice activities are directed at individuals in the community who are in need (e.g. at free clinics, homeless shelters, low income kids who need dental care, group homes for people with developmental disabilities, etc.) ... like social justice activities should be. I'm totally supportive of this (faculty advisor for several of the student groups), and in fact I could probably be considered a pretty left-wing SJ progressive hippie, especially in the broader environment of Texas. Haven't heard of anything Evergreen-like going on at any of the undergrad campuses here yet.

screwtape
.
.
Posts: 2713
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2013 7:15 am

Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#17623

Post by screwtape »

Billie from Ockham wrote:
Kirbmarc wrote:Incidentally operant conditioning explains much better why we need proportionate punishment: too little or too much punishment has negative effects on conditioning people (teaching them they can get away with bad things or that they're doomed to their life being ruined no matter what) so we should try to find the right balance to improve the effects of our conditioning.
On the flip side, any reference to operant conditioning in a culture with fancy due process is faulty because punishment (in the technical sense of a negative event after an action with the goal of reducing the likelihood of the action being repeated) only works when the delay between the action to be "stamped out" and the negative consequence is short. Oddly enough, the operant conditioning justification for criminal punishment only really works in cultures with little or no due process, such as those set up by the Taliban. Yeah, that's correct: Taliban "justice" enjoys more support from psychology than Western "justice."
And true for parenting as well; the punishment must not only fit the crime, it must follow quickly after it. I suspect every kid brought up on a corrective regime of "Wait till your father gets home" turns out badly.

And with respect to Kirbmarc's comment, we only need to look to the Scandinavian penal system to see a more functional balance between rehabilitation and retribution. A system based mostly on retribution simply deepens, widens and multiplies criminality.

MarcusAu
.
.
Posts: 7903
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2016 11:49 am
Location: Llareggub

Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#17624

Post by MarcusAu »

BarnOwl wrote:
MarcusAu wrote:Have you seen an increase in such activity where you work BarnOwl or are the students holding their collective breath and waiting to see how it works out at the other locations?
I'm at a medical & dental school (attend after 4 years of university in the US), so the students are older and (usually) more mature and less self-involved. Social justice activities are directed at individuals in the community who are in need (e.g. at free clinics, homeless shelters, low income kids who need dental care, group homes for people with developmental disabilities, etc.) ... like social justice activities should be. I'm totally supportive of this (faculty advisor for several of the student groups), and in fact I could probably be considered a pretty left-wing SJ progressive hippie, especially in the broader environment of Texas. Haven't heard of anything Evergreen-like going on at any of the undergrad campuses here yet.
It seems a lot of the complaining is over trivial stuff - and demands resources that could be best used elsewhere.

Glad to hear that your place of work remains (relatively) sane - and hope that the same can be said for you!

Shatterface
.
.
Posts: 5898
Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2014 2:05 pm

Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#17625

Post by Shatterface »

BarnOwl wrote:Yet another Evergreen video; this one focused on the madcap antics of Professor Naima Lowe:

[youtube][/youtube]

Close-captioned for the SJW-impaired. Apart of the small dog being held hostage, I think the worst thing is the finger-snapping.
What's with the Bratva tattoo?

The Russian mob are letting their standards slip. I really don't want to watch her wrestle Viggo Mortensen in a bathhouse.

MarcusAu
.
.
Posts: 7903
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2016 11:49 am
Location: Llareggub

Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#17626

Post by MarcusAu »

I've not seen Wonder Woman yet (and probably won't) - but when I went past the local movie theatre the other day 'Harold and Maude' was on the marquee. So I think I might check that out.

No spoilers please.

Matt Cavanaugh
.
.
Posts: 15449
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:38 pm
Contact:

Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#17627

Post by Matt Cavanaugh »

Shatterface wrote:
Kirbmarc wrote:The backlash of brainwashing is reduced cognitive flexibility, which is a big negative in the long run (dogmatism, lack of adaptation, etc.). Ads aren't as bad, but it depends on what you're selling.
What about cults like Alcoholics Anonymous which can turn a wife-beating drunk into a productive - if annoying - member of society? Most of their techniques - public acts of confession and contrition, isolation from former friends, learnt dependency on the group, repetition of thought-terminating cliches - are standard brainwashing techniques.
AA has an 18% success rate.

BarnOwl
.
.
Posts: 3311
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:18 pm
Location: The wrong trouser of Time

Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#17628

Post by BarnOwl »

MarcusAu wrote:
It seems a lot of the complaining is over trivial stuff - and demands resources that could be best used elsewhere.

Glad to hear that your place of work remains (relatively) sane - and hope that the same can be said for you!
I think the TESC debacle is really a shame, tbh; one of my grad school littermates had gone there for undergrad, and she was one of the most intelligent and genuinely kindest people I knew back then. There are a lot of positive things about that type of learning environment, but of course it's not going to work for everyone. Definitely doesn't work for students who aren't that bright to begin with, which I think is a big part of the problem at Evergreen currently. Most of my teaching is so constrained to certain material (makes sense, because teaching future physicians and dentists) and to particular ways of presenting it (powerpoints, MCQ), and I kind of envy the freedom that faculty have at Evergreen.

Thanks for the well-wishes; I'm staying fairly sane, given the ever-increasing work load.

MarcusAu
.
.
Posts: 7903
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2016 11:49 am
Location: Llareggub

Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#17629

Post by MarcusAu »

Shatterface wrote:
...
I really don't want to watch her wrestle Viggo Mortensen in a bathhouse.
Where do you want to see them wrestle?

Shatterface
.
.
Posts: 5898
Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2014 2:05 pm

Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#17630

Post by Shatterface »

MarcusAu wrote:
Shatterface wrote:Bates was never transgender. When he dressed as his mother he was his mother. He had created an alternate personality.

Transgenderism isn't supposed to be a dissociative personality disorder but if they keep bitching about Norman Bates, Dressed to Kill and Silence of the Lambs that's precisely what they make it look like.
I'm sure that it's tangential to your point - but I always thought that as far as fucked up movies with Anthony Perkins go - 'Crimes of Passion' never gets it's due.
Kathleen Turner in a rubber nun outfit and Anthony Perkins' death-by-dildo - what's not to love?

BarnOwl
.
.
Posts: 3311
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:18 pm
Location: The wrong trouser of Time

Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#17631

Post by BarnOwl »

MarcusAu wrote:
Shatterface wrote:
...
I really don't want to watch her wrestle Viggo Mortensen in a bathhouse.
Where do you want to see them wrestle?
:lol:

I do like me some Viggo though. Quintessential hippie Viking-type.

Shatterface
.
.
Posts: 5898
Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2014 2:05 pm

Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#17632

Post by Shatterface »

Dressed to Kill is pretty damned good too. The whole seduction and murder sequence is shot without any dislodge except for the couple giving directions in the taxi. Brian dePalma tricked Angie Dickinson into thinking he'd add a voice-over because she wasn't convinced it would work. Pure cinema..

Nancy Allen was hot back then. That sequence in the black underwear...

Keith Gordon went on to direct some interesting films - Static, The Chocolate War - but seems to direct TV mainly these days. Good shows though: Fargo, Homeland, Better Call Saul... Always worth listening to his commentaries on films he starred in as he obviously had ambitions to direct and was paying attention to how the film was made as much as to his own performance.

shoutinghorse
.
.
Posts: 2649
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2017 6:01 am

Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#17633

Post by shoutinghorse »

deLurch wrote:
shoutinghorse wrote:Working well so far :roll:
I fail to see a problem with this. The people elected them.

Of interest is this:
first Sikh woman to be elected to Parliament.
If your officials are too much pansies to do anything about religiously based terrorism, might I suggest voting in a 100% Sikh parliament. They might be inclined to mop up that mess in short order.

Also, I find the hubris of Britian's elected leaders to be a bit humorous on both sides of the aisle. They ran the Brexit election because they thought it would never go through, yet that is exactly what happened. Now they wanted to do a show of force with an election to show a mandate from the people, and got their asses handed to them.

But I will give them full props for at least trying to be responsive to the wishes of their people.
All the Labour female MP's elected in the last two Parliaments are from 'women only' shortlists, because its the current year blah blah.

The referendum on membership of the EU was forced on Cameron by UKIP winning the Euro elections & 4 million votes in the 2015 GE and by the Euro sceptic Tory MP's making him promise to hold a euro ref. The establishment then did everything to scare cajole and bully the people into voting remain, failing to control immigration, one of the main factors in people wanting brexit and then calling anyone who questioned it bogots, little Englanders, racist etc. etc.They even got Obama to warn us we'd be at the back of the queue in any trade deal with the US if we dared to vote leave.
Then Cameron throws his dummy out and resigns once we vote for brexit after saying he would deliver what ever we decide and so we had a Tory leadership battle which 'remainer' May eventually emerged as leader. May had failed previously as Home Secretary for six years in tackling mass migration in spite of repeated promises to get migration down to the 10's of thousands a year instead of the 300,000 plus net migration we've had every year for over a decade. She also cut police numbers by 20,000 in austerity cuts, which is now a big worry with the recent reign of Islamic terror we've suffered. She took an age triggering article 50, the process of formally leaving the EU that left the door open for a leagal battle over parliamentary process which gave snowflake remainers hope of scuppering brexit.
She is unpopular and untrusted by many, but Corbyn is seen as a dangerous left wing marxist by many. For her to go to the country looked on paper to be the smart thing to do, all polls put het 20 points ahead, but she fucked up, she took the electorate for granted, her manifesto was a disaster and her no show in debates made her appear scared and aloof. Make no mistake, Labour won fuck all on Thursday but May lost not just 12 seats (when expected to win a landslide) but a strong negotiating hand in brexit and for her personally, quite possibly her job.

Its all an utter fucking shambles but was all so avoidable, that's what's so annoying.

Shatterface
.
.
Posts: 5898
Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2014 2:05 pm

Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#17634

Post by Shatterface »

MarcusAu wrote:
Shatterface wrote:
...
I really don't want to watch her wrestle Viggo Mortensen in a bathhouse.
Where do you want to see them wrestle?
On ice.

MarcusAu
.
.
Posts: 7903
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2016 11:49 am
Location: Llareggub

Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#17635

Post by MarcusAu »

A 'bogot' sounds like a prejudiced person who is also a bit camp.

Brive1987
.
.
Posts: 17791
Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:16 am

Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#17636

Post by Brive1987 »

MarcusAu wrote:I've not seen Wonder Woman yet (and probably won't) - but when I went past the local movie theatre the other day 'Harold and Maude' was on the marquee. So I think I might check that out.

No spoilers please.

It's worth setting low expectations because as a baseline this can only be upside.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/imag ... rU2CEeVRrf

Unless you prefer your women with balls of course.

Guest_440911e7

Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#17637

Post by Guest_440911e7 »

Hadn't realized Keith Gordon was in dressed to kill. Just knew him from Christine.

shoutinghorse
.
.
Posts: 2649
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2017 6:01 am

Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#17638

Post by shoutinghorse »

Becky's womansplaining the word cunt to arguably a bigger cunt than her. :whistle:

shoutinghorse
.
.
Posts: 2649
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2017 6:01 am

Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#17639

Post by shoutinghorse »

MarcusAu wrote:A 'bogot' sounds like a prejudiced person who is also a bit camp.

My fat fingers have invented a new word. :D

Matt Cavanaugh
.
.
Posts: 15449
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:38 pm
Contact:

Re: Give Me a Urinal or Give Me Death!

#17640

Post by Matt Cavanaugh »

shoutinghorse wrote:Becky's womansplaining the word cunt to arguably a bigger cunt than her. :whistle:
Take's one to know one.

Locked