The Refuge of the Toads

[Dave]

This being what I was talking about. Common Core standards are things like:

Use place value understanding and properties of operations to perform multi-digit arithmetic.¹
CCSS.MATH.CONTENT.3.NBT.A.1
Use place value understanding to round whole numbers to the nearest 10 or 100.
CCSS.MATH.CONTENT.3.NBT.A.2
Fluently add and subtract within 1000 using strategies and algorithms based on place value, properties of operations, and/or the relationship between addition and subtraction.
CCSS.MATH.CONTENT.3.NBT.A.3
Multiply one-digit whole numbers by multiples of 10 in the range 10-90 (e.g., 9 × 80, 5 × 60) using strategies based on place value and properties of operations.

Much of the effort to get kids to understand "math theory" has been led by UofC's EverydayMath which predates Common Core by a considerable amount, however, as I mentioned, because textbooks arent updated often, most people didnt see this "New Math" until districts updated to new textbooks, which many did in response to the CC standards. But EM and similar methods is by no means required by Common Core.

This sounds familiar...
[youtube][/youtube]

:)

[windy]

Remember, folks, It's very important to take your 5 and 7 and 9 year old daughters to the Women's March & explain to them the President is a terrifying rapist who hurts women and wants to take away girls' freedom & close all the playgrounds.

Speaking of terrifying rapists, it appears that one of the invited speakers of the march (Donna Hylton) was convicted of participating in a kidnapping and subsequent torture-rape-murder in the 1980s:

https://i.imgtc.com/vMYOqhf.png

(sorry if this has been mentioned before, have slacked on Pit-reading lately)

[Bourne Skeptic]

PZ's anti Carrier gofundme is rolling. It's fun and high jinks until the Professor goes all ableist.

I’ve been fortunate in the past that the loons who’ve threatened to sue me have tended to collapse at the prospect of defending their absurdities

https://www.gofundme.com/defense-vs-carrier-slapp

5k so far.

Up to 8400.

Funny:

Lawrence D. Clark
1 hour ago

I support atheist voices being heard, and not silenced by powerful bigots/Republicans. These are dangerous times. Copied from another.

Can any of the legal eagle Pitters help me figure out how I should be rooting? Do I want PZ to bring in 80 grand to pound Carrier into the ground? Or will that just scare Carrier into giving up immediately? Should I hope for it to come in around 20 grand?

What think ye?

I'm hoping both sides raise enough money to keep this lawsuit going for 15 rounds.
I wanna see them kick the shit out of each other and declared a draw at the end! :popcorn: :popcorn:

[Brive1987]

Jokes at the expense of minors should be off the table. Children don't have freedom of association. Attacking them because you don't like their parents makes you more childish than the actual child.

Recall when PZ defended his fem-mate Catherine Deveny in 2010 after she tweeted that an 11 yo girl should "get laid"?

The rest of the world pulled up bridges and Catherine got sacked from her newspaper. PZ was outraged that a rape-joke could be offensive.

Back then mildly interesting post this this pulled over 350 comments. With Josh Spokesgay well represented. Appears he is now dead and buried. ;)


http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010 ... s-be-rude/

[Bourne Skeptic]

Yes, fairly drunk now. But I deserve it!

Happy Birthday Phil :auto-sportbike: :dance: :dance:

[Brive1987]

Oh, and in case anyone was wondering, >>I<< an the Fallen Madonna with the Big Boobies by van Klomp.

+ Are You Being Served?
+ It Aint Half Hot Mum
+ Allo Allo

All weird and wonderful products of their time.
Never wanted to stroke Mrs Slocombe's pussy - but Miss Brahms was always on the "to do" list.

[MarcusAu]

I always liked Dad's Army. it seemed more like a character study than an outright comedy.

[free thoughtpolice]

From one of the 350 comments:

The actual origins of “sand in the vagina” comes from what Native American women used to do to themselves to prevent white settlers from raping them.

Not sure if that's an alternative truth. :think:

[katamari Damassi]

In nerd news; the next Star Wars movie has a name: The Last Jedi. I'm going for the Randi prize, so here is my prediction. Rey begins to train with Luke. Doing flips, levitating rocks, fighting a phantom Kylo who then turns out be a phantom Rey, that sort of thing. Rey has a vision that Finn is in danger, and despite Luke's disapproval, she quits her training to go rescue him. It's a trap! Kylo has set the whole thing up to catch Rey, and deliver her to the supreme leader Snoke! Rey and Kylo fight! Rey uses her Mary Sue powers to cut Kylo's hand off. She rescues Finn. The end. Oh, and there's some side plot involving Poe Dameron.

[DrokkIt]

This particular article is doing the rounds right now (more nazi punching content):

https://acanopenerinawormfactory.wordpr ... ing-nazis/

snippet:

Violence is already present and happening. People are already dying. There is an absolute swamp here of structural and systemic violence, and its victims are almost exclusively people from marginalised communities or minority groups with far less wealth, privilege and platform than Spencer. If we are talking about wars, and defining them as ‘people are dying’, or more specifically ‘people are dying because of the deliberate actions or inaction of factions in power’ (thank you Marcus) then wars are already being waged against people of colour in America, against LGBT* people worldwide, against sick and disabled people in America, and denying the left any right to physical resistance against anyone under any circumstances is implicitly colluding with and enabling this structural and systemic violence.

It makes an impassioned argument that democracy cannot (and should not) tolerate specific views, and that people against violence is denying the left a response.

I think this line of logic to be flawed; it creates a false dichotomy wherein the only 2 possible responses to intolerable ideas are either taking them seriously or violent resistance.

I've been telling people all day that there are other ways of disrupting the Nazi dickhead without hitting him- mockery, nonsense, absurd behaviour to destroy his interview- if that is what they really wanted to do.

I've also pointed out that by punching the guy he can now go on mainstream media and play the victim, giving him way more exposure than he'd otherwise get.

I'd be interested to see what folks make of the arguments in that article, as it seems to be the SJW position summed up.

[DrokkIt]

I've also thought that everyone so into nazi-punching would undoubtedly call me a racist bigot should I punch a islamist imam. Despite the fact that islamism operates in the exact way they accuse fascism of, and using that categorisation it should be considered already violent.

[Sunder]

In nerd news; the next Star Wars movie has a name: The Last Jedi. I'm going for the Randi prize, so here is my prediction. Rey begins to train with Luke. Doing flips, levitating rocks, fighting a phantom Kylo who then turns out be a phantom Rey, that sort of thing. Rey has a vision that Finn is in danger, and despite Luke's disapproval, she quits her training to go rescue him. It's a trap! Kylo has set the whole thing up to catch Rey, and deliver her to the supreme leader Snoke! Rey and Kylo fight! Rey uses her Mary Sue powers to cut Kylo's hand off. She rescues Finn. The end. Oh, and there's some side plot involving Poe Dameron.

I'll be a bit less cynical. 7 was a time to play it safe. 8 should be a time to take risks.

Interestingly the title reminds me of The Last Samurai in that it's very probably a plural but will likely be interpreted as singular (The Last of the Samurai, not Tom Cruise is the very last and sole samurai).

And what with Kylo not technically being a Sith, the one big bold thing this film could do would be to throw away the boring old Jedi/Sith duality. Because it doesn't work and has never worked.

[John D]

Holy Fuck... what a great film. Who here recommended "Glen Campbell - I'll Be Me" on Netflix?

What a fantastic movie! Thanks for the recommendation. Sitting on my couch drinking cheap vodka and crying my eyes out. Fuck me.

[Keating]

Is there any evidence that Spencer actually is a Nazi?

Far as I can tell, he's not even a white supremacist, just a white nationalist.

While being a supremacist is clearly morally wrong, I don't see an inherent moral failing in the nationalist position, unless you're also going to call out countries like Japan.

[Sunder]

Is there any evidence that Spencer actually is a Nazi?

Well considering he's not German and is a few decades removed from the appropriate time period, I'd say there's almost 100% certainty that he's not a bona fide National Socialist party member.

People used to use the term "neo-nazi" referring to contemporary individuals with beliefs akin to the Nazi party but who for reasons of time and distance couldn't be categorized as Nazis proper. Seems that label's gone out of fashion. I suppose it was too reasonable and not hyperbolic enough. No, these days people like Spencer are literal, time-traveling Nazis. Literally.

[DrokkIt]

AND some more:

http://reddragdiva.tumblr.com/post/1561 ... zis-an-faq

How about some of that violence, eh!

[Spike13]

Here is the PZ plea.

http://archive.is/eMKK7

If FTB is a business, ( as well as Pizzy's blog itself) why doesn't the cheap bastard have insurance for this sort of thing? Sure it may cost money, but, it's a lot better than relying upon the internet to pay your legal fees.

[free thoughtpolice]

Here is the PZ plea.

http://archive.is/eMKK7

If FTB is a business, ( as well as Pizzy's blog itself) why doesn't the cheap bastard have insurance for this sort of thing? Sure it may cost money, but, it's a lot better than relying upon the internet to pay your legal fees.

Business insurance doesn't pay for deliberate slander?

[Brive1987]

At 12K, the 'tards have well surpassed the 1.8K of 3K target raised by Amy alone in 5 months. Even the huge amplification of Rebecca Watson failed to provide Amy with Stollznow level loot.

Seems that a raped victim of the patriarchy is several levels below fat bloggers when it comes to virtue money.

[fuzzy]

http://i.imgur.com/2dAbM58.png

[CommanderTuvok]

I've also thought that everyone so into nazi-punching would undoubtedly call me a racist bigot should I punch a islamist imam. Despite the fact that islamism operates in the exact way they accuse fascism of, and using that categorisation it should be considered already violent.

Yes, it is an interesting question. I've seen quite a few people ask the "it is actually OK to punch a Nazi" (he definition of Nazi is somewhat unclear, though) is it OK to punch Communists, Islamists, and even paedophiles. They don't seem that eager to answer, but to me, if punching can be justified, then Nazis and Commies get ONE punch, Islamists get SEVENTY PUNCHES(one for every virgin) and paedophiles get a punch EVERY FUCKING MORNING just after they have woken up.

Also, what is the Nazi is a woman?

[Random Lurker]

I've also thought that everyone so into nazi-punching would undoubtedly call me a racist bigot should I punch a islamist imam. Despite the fact that islamism operates in the exact way they accuse fascism of, and using that categorisation it should be considered already violent.

Yes, it is an interesting question. I've seen quite a few people ask the "it is actually OK to punch a Nazi" (he definition of Nazi is somewhat unclear, though) is it OK to punch Communists, Islamists, and even paedophiles. They don't seem that eager to answer, but to me, if punching can be justified, then Nazis and Commies get ONE punch, Islamists get SEVENTY PUNCHES(one for every virgin) and paedophiles get a punch EVERY FUCKING MORNING just after they have woken up.

Also, what is the Nazi is a woman?

Better be able to muster more than a punch : http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0071650/

[free thoughtpolice]

Comrade Gazi continues to make good points:
[youtube][/youtube]

[Hunt]

Somehow the patriarchy missed a single music theory class, leaving it an all-girl group. The teacher had the class set the speech to music.

[youtube][/youtube]

This is the first time in human history anyone has ever told little girls and only little girls they can be whatever they want to be, etc. Messages like these get drowned out in the massive self-esteem support system that boys have in Western culture.

Can't anyone just sing a fucking song anymore without trying to be the next Sia or Beyonce?

Just sing it! Normally.

[Service Dog]

Holy Fuck... what a great film. Who here recommended "Glen Campbell - I'll Be Me" on Netflix?

What a fantastic movie! Thanks for the recommendation. Sitting on my couch drinking cheap vodka and crying my eyes out. Fuck me.

Should we tell John he's been posting that 3 to 5 time per day, for several weeks? He enjoys the movie so much, every time. I guess he hasn't gotten to the part where Glen calls him onstage for a reuinion duet of all their old hits from the early-70's. And the "John D taught me my first guitar chord" story.

[CaptainFluffyBunny]

snip
Most school districts dont update their textbook (which cost $$$$$) very often. Common Core set uniform standards across the nation. This prompted many school districts to update their school books to newer ones that covered the Common Core standards. This led two two problems: (a) a number of the new text books were rushed to meet the demand and therefore had a number of errors and (b) education experts change the way they think things should be taught every so often, and a number of these changes were often reflected in the new text books. (Although not mandated by Common Core, which does not specify how material should be taught.) An example of this that is often complained about on social media is the new methods of teaching math, led by the Everyday Math curriculum from U Chicago.

Whether or not the Common Core standards are effective in improving education is somewhat besides the point and not something that the average person has much information on. What they see is errors in text books and new strange ways of teaching things, and these changes came in with Common Core, and as we all know correlation = causation, so its Common Core's fault. The irony, of course, is that while adding standards causes districts to update their textbooks, there is no incentive for a school to change their text books in response to the removal of a standard. So repealing Common Core will likely not have any effect on the problems that most people complaining think are the result of Common Core.

I must disagree. In addition to the rushed implementation, there is not enough empirical data that indicates it really works as advertised. It also stifles individual approaches to education and seems to take a tabla rasa attitude towards students. Individual learning styles are ignored, and whether that can be fixed with a more reasoned style of implementation is an open question.

It seems to me that they found something that worked in some areas and rushed to declare it was the New Best Thing. There should have been better studies and a more forthright approach to differences in students and student intelligence. They certainly should have taken into account that teaching styles vary widely and many of the differences are due to the teacher and not necessarily the method used to teach. Treating both teachers and students as cogs is bound to produce fail.

Im not sure what you are disagreeing with. Your comments seem completely orthogonal to mine. From some of your earlier comments, it seems you are not a fan of the Everyday Math program and its derivatives. Personally, I like the way it is taught in my kids school district, but on a more global scale, I can also recognize that the data is fairly ambivalent on if it provides better outcomes. So you are welcome to not like it. My point above is that it is not mandated by Common Core. It came in to many school districts at the same time as Common Core because Common Core required an updating of textbooks and Everyday Math was the Hot Trend In Education at the time that was done. IOW, eliminating Common Core will do fuck-all about changing whether or not Everyday Math approaches will be used. Particularly since eliminating a standard is unlikely to prompt school districts to spend money to get new school books the way adding a standard would. And it is still the current trend in education circles. So disagree with it all you want, but realize what you are disagreeing with is something different than Common Core.

Apologies for not being clearer- I disagree that most parents don't understand the link between Everyday Math (which has its own substantial criticisms, especially among mathematicians) and Common Core, or that we would be just as unhappy with most replacements.Common Core also encompasses more than math, and the language parts are just as flawed as the math. It is no surprise that scores are going down and the program is widely perceived as a failure.
http://thefederalist.com/2016/04/04/sti ... -its-done/
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/9819736

[Service Dog]

The week's This American Life starts with a story about deplorable internet 'trolls' celebrating Trump's victory. It seems designed to make the reporters seem hip-enough to show they Get It, while still fretting over whether trolls enable nazis... & all presented so those who dont already get-it will be stirred to panic.

The episode ends with federal bureaucrats openly admitting their plans to obstruct Trump's administration, by doing things like deleting all mention of global warming from records of their spending & activities concerning global warming. So if global warming wasnt a liberal conspiracy before... now it is.

[Sunder]

At 12K, the 'tards have well surpassed the 1.8K of 3K target raised by Amy alone in 5 months. Even the huge amplification of Rebecca Watson failed to provide Amy with Stollznow level loot.

Seems that a raped victim of the patriarchy is several levels below fat bloggers when it comes to virtue money.

Someone let Peezy know his privilege is showing.

[gurugeorge]

Remember, folks, It's very important to take your 5 and 7 and 9 year old daughters to the Women's March & explain to them the President is a terrifying rapist who hurts women and wants to take away girls' freedom & close all the playgrounds.

Speaking of terrifying rapists, it appears that one of the invited speakers of the march (Donna Hylton) was convicted of participating in a kidnapping and subsequent torture-rape-murder in the 1980s:

https://i.imgtc.com/vMYOqhf.png

(sorry if this has been mentioned before, have slacked on Pit-reading lately)

Dafuq did I just read.

[Aneris]

Interestingly, a few years ago, the new normal was “everyone is a racist and misogynist” since this was worn out, they moved on to “everyone is a supremacist or nazi” as explainable by the euphemism/insult threadmill. However changing labels doesn't change reality, only perceptions of reality.

[Kirbmarc]

Remember, folks, It's very important to take your 5 and 7 and 9 year old daughters to the Women's March & explain to them the President is a terrifying rapist who hurts women and wants to take away girls' freedom & close all the playgrounds.

Speaking of terrifying rapists, it appears that one of the invited speakers of the march (Donna Hylton) was convicted of participating in a kidnapping and subsequent torture-rape-murder in the 1980s:

https://i.imgtc.com/vMYOqhf.png

(sorry if this has been mentioned before, have slacked on Pit-reading lately)

So one of the organizers of the Women's March is an islamist and supports the Saudi Arabian theocratic regime, while a speaker took part in rape, torture and murder. Is it OK to punch them, then? No, of course no, they're WOC and SJWs, so it'd be punching down.

[Brive1987]

Here is the PZ plea.

http://archive.is/eMKK7

If FTB is a business, ( as well as Pizzy's blog itself) why doesn't the cheap bastard have insurance for this sort of thing? Sure it may cost money, but, it's a lot better than relying upon the internet to pay your legal fees.

Stollie had it as an afterthought on her standard personal policy. PZ and friends are following in her footsteps and pulling a fast one.
........

No one should punch anyone, not even a nazi, with SZvan the obvious exception.

A SZvan immediate action drill:

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/imag ... Xa6khQ4eEn

If you think that's harsh, then blame her SJ mates who should've used political means to curb her before she pissed me off.

[Brive1987]

You simply don't get to live this down. Said as it was with a cold hard inflection.

http://i.imgur.com/4f6BAC7.jpg

[Brive1987]

Not that it matters but Watson utterly doxxed herself via a pic on social media.

Guest was right. She is stalking Adam on exactly the same road.

Watson: if the dog "disappears" it'll be butterflies for your driveway.
You have been warned. :)

Just kidding.

[Kirbmarc]

Is there any evidence that Spencer actually is a Nazi?

Far as I can tell, he's not even a white supremacist, just a white nationalist.

While being a supremacist is clearly morally wrong, I don't see an inherent moral failing in the nationalist position, unless you're also going to call out countries like Japan.

Spencer is a white supremacist:

“At the end of the day, America belongs to white men.”

"White nationalist" is a fig leaf in the case of the US, since non-white people have lived in the territory which is now the US since before the US existed. The US are a country of immigrants. Saying that the "America belongs to white men" means that all US citizens who aren't white aren't entitled to live in the US, regardless of how long their families have lived there or what they've done to make the US great.

In other cases the distinction between white supremacist and white nationalist might be more relevant (if the argument is that your country is the historic homeland of a certain ethnicity, which has some relevance in some European states), although basing your immigration and integration policies mainly on race (instead, for example, on sustainability and the possibility of forging a shared civil culture) is still racist in the true meaning of the word, not the new SJW meaning. Japan has a huge racism problem, just ask the Koreans who were brought there as indentured servants and are still second-class citizens.

Race is largely a red herring, the problem is cultural values. I wouldn't trust a white islamist to integrate in Europe better or more easily than a black or middle eastern or asian or pacific islander person who shares liberal democratic values. Also ethnic differences exist but summing them up into the classic idea of races is simplistic and reductive, especially in the US where "white" means everything from anglo-saxon to Irish to Italian to Greek to Russian.

Limiting immigration and naturalization to the people who actually show that they can integrate isn't racism (no matter how much the SJW bleat about it), but it's nationalism without the "white" part or the " ethnic Japanese" part in the case of Japan. You could call it "civic nationalism" and I think that it's a perfectly acceptable and probably very beneficial position, very likely better than admitting everyone and giving paths to naturalization to everyone regardless of what they believe and do.

It's a position based on a core of shared values (a working knowledge of a common language, common laws, common liberal democratic principles) which should be the core of education and of naturalization instead of leaving communities to isolate in their ghettoes and create states within the state.

Anyway this still doesn't justify punching Spencer in the face, of course. His ideas are awful, but there's plenty of other awful ideas around: communism, muslim supremacy, black supremacy, christian supremacy, etc. We can't justify punching people for awful ideas in a liberal democracy. Spencer isn't openly advocating for violence or conspiring to commit treason or aiding and abetting a terrorist groups or committing any other crime as far as I know, and even if he were any sanction against him should come from the justice system, not from vigilantes.

Mocking, satirizing, insulting, criticizing Spencer is fair game, and in my humble opinion required since his ideas are terrible. Punching him in the face is an authoritarian act which goes against freedom of speech, and Spencer is entitled to press charges on the person who punched him for assault. Anyone who condones or supports punching people for their ideas is a violence apologist.

[Brive1987]

Didn't the white fella win the battle of the frontier?

Losers regret. You get the crumbs. Life sux.

It's like the incredible moving western frontier of Poland. No one counts the Frau-tears

[Kirbmarc]

Interestingly, a few years ago, the new normal was “everyone is a racist and misogynist” since this was worn out, they moved on to “everyone is a supremacist or nazi” as explainable by the euphemism/insult threadmill. However changing labels doesn't change reality, only perceptions of reality.

The logical consequence of the insult threadmill is that "white supremacist" and "nazi" will also wear out their shock potential. One of the consequences of the SJW habit of calling everyone they disagree with a racist or a misogynist regardless of whether this was true is that they've diluted the stigma against racism and misogyny. The same will likely happen with "white supremacy" and "nazism". The SJWs are actually empowering the white supremacists and nazis by applying those labels to people who really aren't white supremacists and nazis, like Ayaan Hirsi Ali or Bernie Sanders.

If everyone is a white supremacist or a nazi then nobody is, those words lose meaning and people who have actual positions which support white supremacy and nazism can claim that all their critics are simply deranged SJWs. The post-modern critical race theory and its redefinition of racism into "prejudice plus power" and its dilution of violence into "microaggression" have made race relations worse and have created a political climate where white supremacy and nazism might become more and more socially accepted.

Congratulations, SJWs! Epic fail.

[Kirbmarc]

I've also thought that everyone so into nazi-punching would undoubtedly call me a racist bigot should I punch a islamist imam. Despite the fact that islamism operates in the exact way they accuse fascism of, and using that categorisation it should be considered already violent.

Yup.

If you believe that Richard Spencer deserves to be punched in the face for defending illiberal ideas which target people who aren't like him (white) then surely Linda Sarsour deserves to be punched in the face for defending illiberal ideas which target people who aren't like her (muslim).

Or alternatively you could, you know, be a reasonable human being with liberal democratic principles and not punch anyone for their ideas, awful as they might be.

[Brive1987]

I've also thought that everyone so into nazi-punching would undoubtedly call me a racist bigot should I punch a islamist imam. Despite the fact that islamism operates in the exact way they accuse fascism of, and using that categorisation it should be considered already violent.

Yup.

If you believe that Richard Spencer deserves to be punched in the face for defending illiberal ideas which target people who aren't like him (white) then surely Linda Sarsour deserves to be punched in the face for defending illiberal ideas which target people who aren't like her (muslim).

Or alternatively you could, you know, be a reasonable human being with liberal democratic principles and not punch anyone for their ideas, awful as they might be.

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/imag ... Xa6khQ4eEn

[Kirbmarc]

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/imag ... Xa6khQ4eEn

No, not even the seals, or the sea lions, or the Szvanatees. :lol:

[Keating]

White nationalism wouldn't make sense in Europe. English nationalists aren't particularly keen on Poles. Estonians aren't happy with the large Russian minority. It's not about whiteness there.

White nationalism would only make sense in countries like the US or Australia, where there is a mix of Europeans already.

Supremism requires thinking one race is superiority. I haven't seen evidence that Spencer believes this. He does seem to believe that different races can't live together, but seems perfectly open to friendship and cooperation between ethnically homogenous countries, regardless of the race. I think I don't see how this translates to supremacism necessarily.

[Kirbmarc]

White nationalism wouldn't make sense in Europe. English nationalists aren't particularly keen on Poles. Estonians aren't happy with the large Russian minority. It's not about whiteness there.

OK, that was a misnomer, call it ethnic nationalism vs. civic nationalism then.

White nationalism would only make sense in countries like the US or Australia, where there is a mix of Europeans already.

You're forgetting something I think. In those countries there's a mix of non-Europeans, too, some of which were there before any European reached those parts of the world.

Supremism requires thinking one race is superiority. I haven't seen evidence that Spencer believes this. He does seem to believe that different races can't live together, but seems perfectly open to friendship and cooperation between ethnically homogenous countries, regardless of the race. I think I don't see how this translates to supremacism necessarily.

Thinking that a country which is very far from being ethnically homogenous should be ethnically homogenous means that in that country the ethnicity you prefer is superior in terms of rights. Non-white people have lived in the US or Australia before the US or Australia even existed. Black people have also lived in the US since before the US existed. America or Australia aren't the ethnic homeland of white Europeans. They don't "belong" to white people more than South Africa "belongs" to white people.

Apartheid supporters in South Africa and "separated but equal" supporters in the US also believed that different races couldn't live together, yet they're often called "white supremacists" because they also believed that in their country white people should be in control, in the superior position. Muslims who believe that muslims should be in control of some countries and everyone who's not a muslim should be treated as a second class citizen can rightly be called "muslim supremacists".

[sp0tlight]

Hope Im not ninjed, Wu is the gift nobody asked for, but it keeps on giving,

http://i.imgur.com/j8PLqGz.png

[Kirbmarc]

Basically it goes like this:

-Nationalism is based on shared cultural values that are considered the founding principles of a specific nation, which are valid in that specific nation.

-Civic nationalism is based on the assumption that those values can be learned, if one accepts them.

-Ethnic nationalism is based on the assumption that those values are related to ancestry

-Racial nationalism is based on the assumption that those values are related to visible race

-Religious nationalism is based on the assumption that those values are based on a common religion.

-Of these different forms of nationalism only civic nationalism is compatible with liberal democracy, all the other forms of nationalism are based on a hierarchy of people in society based on ethnic, racial or religious features, and so put an ethnicity, a race or a religion in a superior position in society. They can be called ethnic, racial or religious supremacy.

-Internationalism is based on the fact that the same set of values must apply everywhere.

-Internationalism can be based on any set of values.

-Ethnic and racial internationalism presuppose that an ethnicity or race should rule the entire world, or at least a large part of it. The same is true for religious internationalism. They can also be called ethnic, racial or religious supremacy. The difference between those position and their nationalist counterparts is in their scope and goals, not in their assumptions.

-Internationalism based on liberal democratic values is the alleged aim of various NGOs and of the UN. They have failed, badly.

-Social Justice Warriors preach internationalism based on a post-modern interpretation of the classic Marxist internationalism.

-Corporate interests support some internationalist or nationalist ideas as long as they align with their interests. As of right now the dominant powers in many countries are multinational corporations, which are logically more drawn to expanding international deals in their favor, so they support internationalist ideas.

-The backlash against corporate interests and their effects on liberal democracies has caused nationalist ideas to come back in fashion. As long they're based on civic nationalist principles they aren't a threat to liberal democracies.

[Kirbmarc]

Richard Spencer is racial nationalist, and therefore a racial supremacist. The fact that he's willing to respect international boundaries and cooperate with different racial and ethnic nationalists doesn't make him any less of a racial supremacist. And since the race he sees as having a right to dominate his country is white he's a white supremacist.

The difference between him and someone who thinks that the white race should dominate the world is scope and goals, not in ideology.

[Brive1987]

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/imag ... Xa6khQ4eEn

No, not even the seals, or the sea lions, or the Szvanatees. :lol:

Maybe just one? Surely we can beat one of them to death? :violence-hammer:

[Brive1987]

Carrier's having a Radford moment as PZ's Heroes make it to 14/20 in two days.

Difference is Radford made 10k of his own via allies.

[rayshul]

Supremism requires thinking one race is superiority. I haven't seen evidence that Spencer believes this. He does seem to believe that different races can't live together, but seems perfectly open to friendship and cooperation between ethnically homogenous countries, regardless of the race. I think I don't see how this translates to supremacism necessarily.

Yeah, I've been reading a lot of Spencer. He wants white people to feel good about white people and get in touch with the ethnic background, which is a kind of neutral thing tbh. He talks about the work predominantly white (Western/Northern European) cultures have done to enrich society and create what are pretty much the best places to live around the world (YMMV obvs). The idea of black genocide and his connection to it is from a satirical article written by someone else (but published on his site) reversing the races and making comment on South African politics during the time that they were slaughtering white/boer farmers. Whether or not he hates other races could be true but it isn't really borne out by his writing/speeches as far as I can tell.

[Kirbmarc]

Yeah, I've been reading a lot of Spencer. He wants white people to feel good about white people and get in touch with the ethnic background, which is a kind of neutral thing tbh. He talks about the work predominantly white (Western/Northern European) cultures have done to enrich society and create what are pretty much the best places to live around the world (YMMV obvs). The idea of black genocide and his connection to it is from a satirical article written by someone else (but published on his site) reversing the races and making comment on South African politics during the time that they were slaughtering white/boer farmers. Whether or not he hates other races could be true but it isn't really borne out by his writing/speeches as far as I can tell.

It's not a matter of hatred or genocide. It's a matter of putting an ethnicity/race first in your country. Spencer says that "At the end of the day, America belongs to white people". This means that non-white Americans aren't really Americans, that they're second-class citizens at best.

This goes beyond feeling good about one's ethnic origin, it's saying that people of a different ethnicity don't really belong in your country, regardless of what they believe and do and how much they've done for your country.

I'm against "white guilt", too, I think it's absurd to make white people feel bad about their ancestry and it's important to recognize the achievements of white people in creating liberal democracies. But this doesn't mean that people that aren't white but contribute to liberal democracy "don't really belong" just because of their ethnicity, and should be treated as second-class citizens just because of their ethnicity.

[Kirbmarc]

A country belongs to the people who do something for it. As JFK said, ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country. The "west" needs to bring back the idea of civic service, of civic duty, of responsibilities which come with rights.

The mistake of the left has been to emphasize rights at the expense of duties and responsibilities. A right without a duty is only entitlement. If you have the right of freedom of speech you have the duty to respect other people's right to freedom of speech. If you have the right to vote you have the duty to take an interest in voting.

If you have equal rights you also have equal responsibilities, and you can't play the victim every time you're not given what you want, you can't expect to be cared for and pampered if you don't do anything to pay back. If you're adult and able in body and mind you have no excuse for expecting special treatment.

Also if you have the right to express your opinion others have the right to express theirs, and you have the duty to respect that right. There's no such thing as "a right not to be offended". If you're angry and offended express your feelings and deal with it, don't ask your country to violate other people's rights, and don't do it yourself.

[rayshul]

Yeah, I've been reading a lot of Spencer. He wants white people to feel good about white people and get in touch with the ethnic background, which is a kind of neutral thing tbh. He talks about the work predominantly white (Western/Northern European) cultures have done to enrich society and create what are pretty much the best places to live around the world (YMMV obvs). The idea of black genocide and his connection to it is from a satirical article written by someone else (but published on his site) reversing the races and making comment on South African politics during the time that they were slaughtering white/boer farmers. Whether or not he hates other races could be true but it isn't really borne out by his writing/speeches as far as I can tell.

It's not a matter of hatred or genocide. It's a matter of putting an ethnicity/race first in your country. Spencer says that "At the end of the day, America belongs to white people". This means that non-white Americans aren't really Americans, that they're second-class citizens at best.

I've read him say similar things, and the context of the quote is either encouraging white people to embrace their contribution to America/cultural and political influence from their heritage on the country, or put in contrast or at the end of a long piece/paragraph that describes other races or people who have a connection to their culture/country, or to reject the claim that white people should not have rights. I don't know. I just struggle to read things in the all or nothing way you are. And maybe that's because it's so insanely tame compared to the stuff that comes out of SJW mouths, but still...

I don't know, I've been considering writing to him to get more clarity. I'd like to know from him if I'm getting him wrong or not.

[feathers]

Watson's dog is doing just fine. Good boy.
http://i.imgur.com/ZUsfDAl.jpg

This is like those pics ISIS posts of their prisoners.

[rayshul]

Meanwhile I bought some kind of toner spray thing from a beauty shop and I think it's like homeopathy so I've bought homeopathy stuff now which makes me a great skeptic.

[Kirbmarc]

Limo torched in DC protests belongs to Muslim immigrant, may cost $70,000 in damages

Congratulations, antifas!

[Brive1987]

A country belongs to the people who do something for it. As JFK said, ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country. The "west" needs to bring back the idea of civic service, of civic duty, of responsibilities which come with rights.

You and me bro. Brothers in arms.

http://i.imgur.com/v277O2W.jpg

[Keating]

You're forgetting something I think. In those countries there's a mix of non-Europeans, too, some of which were there before any European reached those parts of the world.

Except, for both Australia and the US, that's incredibly recent. Australia had an explicit White Australia Policy until 1966. For the United States it was the Hart-Celler Act of 1965. That's just 50 years. I don't know about Native Americans, but Aboriginals in Australia comprise less than 3% of the population today. Blacks in the US comprise around 13% of the population today.

Thinking that a country which is very far from being ethnically homogenous should be ethnically homogenous means that in that country the ethnicity you prefer is superior in terms of rights. Non-white people have lived in the US or Australia before the US or Australia even existed. Black people have also lived in the US since before the US existed. America or Australia aren't the ethnic homeland of white Europeans. They don't "belong" to white people more than South Africa "belongs" to white people.

In South Africa, white people never constituted a majority of the population, just government. That is not true for Australia and the United States, where Europeans did have populations around 90% in the past.

Apartheid supporters in South Africa and "separated but equal" supporters in the US also believed that different races couldn't live together, yet they're often called "white supremacists" because they also believed that in their country white people should be in control, in the superior position. Muslims who believe that muslims should be in control of some countries and everyone who's not a muslim should be treated as a second class citizen can rightly be called "muslim supremacists".

Maybe. But I'd argue that someone like Spencer today is more akin, from a US perspective, to a religious minority in a Muslim country sooner after take over by Islam. Most of those middle eastern countries were majority Christian in the past before Muslims conquered and started driving out and otherwise out-breeding non-Muslims. I realise the same argument could be made by an Aboriginal in Australia today, or a Native American in the US, and many do. The difference is it's far too late for them, as they've been reduced to an insignificant fraction of the population, whereas whites still constitute a fairly large, albeit declining population in both Australia and the United States.

I'm not saying I agree with Spencer or his policy positions. I'm just saying that I don't see the white nationalist position as necessarily supremacist given history.

One can think a particular ethnicities deserves to be kept distinct from all others without necessarily being supremacist. Perhaps this is more easy to see from the inverse position. One of the original ideas for the European Union, largely from Coudenhove-Kalergi, was that the best way to avoid another European war was to erase all individual identities across Europe and have people only identify as European rather than their individual nationalities. Thinking that the Danes as a people and culture should survive distinct from the European project is not Danish supremacism. I understand Spencer's position to be analogous to that, from what I've read from him.

[Hunt]

Carrier's having a Radford moment as PZ's Heroes make it to 14/20 in two days.

Difference is Radford made 10k of his own via allies.

I'm impressed. I didn't know The Horde still had it in them. The cash, that is.

[Kirbmarc]

A country belongs to the people who do something for it. As JFK said, ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country. The "west" needs to bring back the idea of civic service, of civic duty, of responsibilities which come with rights.

You and me bro. Brothers in arms.

http://i.imgur.com/v277O2W.jpg

Yup! Heinlein's idea is a very sound one, as long as the system is based on equal access to service. Of course plenty of special snowflakes call this "fascism", without understanding that it's the exact opposite.

Fascism is about taking rights away to the people you don't like for ideological or ethnic or religious reasons, Heinlein's paradigm is about giving rights to anyone who shows that they deserve them by showing concern and dedication for the system.

It doesn't necessarily have to be military service, either. Even in Heinlein's society (which is focused more on the military) people served in different fashions. Civic service of any kind is good for learning the principles of society. Cleaning up streets on a voluntary basis teaches you to put the welfare of a community (having a clean road) over your personal advantage (not doing a hard job).

I spent twenty weeks training for my country's military service (part of conscription duties), and every year I'm expected to pass a physical test of fitness for service. I then spent one year doing 10 hours a week of voluntary civil service while I was studying. I think that those experiences have taught me a lot about the concept of duty.

[Hunt]

A country belongs to the people who do something for it. As JFK said, ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country. The "west" needs to bring back the idea of civic service, of civic duty, of responsibilities which come with rights.

The mistake of the left has been to emphasize rights at the expense of duties and responsibilities. A right without a duty is only entitlement. If you have the right of freedom of speech you have the duty to respect other people's right to freedom of speech. If you have the right to vote you have the duty to take an interest in voting.

If you have equal rights you also have equal responsibilities, and you can't play the victim every time you're not given what you want, you can't expect to be cared for and pampered if you don't do anything to pay back. If you're adult and able in body and mind you have no excuse for expecting special treatment.

Also if you have the right to express your opinion others have the right to express theirs, and you have the duty to respect that right. There's no such thing as "a right not to be offended". If you're angry and offended express your feelings and deal with it, don't ask your country to violate other people's rights, and don't do it yourself.

:clap:

I think you've hit some kind of nail on its head here. This is really one of the major problems with America right now. Nobody really knows what it means to be a citizen, with civic duties. And so the ground is fertile for racial nationalists to step in and tell others what it means to be an American. During the Kennedy years we knew what it meant to be American; we gave back. Kennedy started the Peace Corps., which was basically a way to say to the world, look we know we lucked out, we hit the triple cherries, maybe we can share the goodness. Nobody even mentions the Peace Corps anymore. That was internationalism, but there were strong sentiments of domestic civic duty as well. Much of that is now gone.

(Sorry for the American centrism.)

[Brive1987]

A country belongs to the people who do something for it. As JFK said, ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country. The "west" needs to bring back the idea of civic service, of civic duty, of responsibilities which come with rights.

You and me bro. Brothers in arms.

[im.g]http://i.imgur.com/v277O2W.jpg[/img]

Yup! Heinlein's idea is a very sound one, as long as the system is based on equal access to service. Of course plenty of special snowflakes call this "fascism", without understanding that it's the exact opposite.

Fascism is about taking rights away to the people you don't like for ideological or ethnic or religious reasons, Heinlein's paradigm is about giving rights to anyone who shows that they deserve them by showing concern and dedication for the system.

It doesn't necessarily have to be military service, either. Even in Heinlein's society (which is focused more on the military) people served in different fashions. Civic service of any kind is good for learning the principles of society. Cleaning up streets on a voluntary basis teaches you to put the welfare of a community (having a clean road) over your personal advantage (not doing a hard job).

I spent twenty weeks training for my country's military service (part of conscription duties), and every year I'm expected to pass a physical test of fitness for service. I then spent one year doing 10 hours a week of voluntary civil service while I was studying. I think that those experiences have taught me a lot about the concept of duty.

Indeed. I did 6 or 7 years Army Reserve. One of the best things I've ever done.