The Refuge of the Toads

[Brive1987]

I think I'm on board with the rest of what you are talking about, although I think riot control tactics can be sticky and have to done carefully. Hamfisted responses to protests often increase the profile of those protests, and give the appearance of moral superiority to the protesters. If you want the culture war you detail below to be successful, you have to be careful of producing too many images that look like this:

http://www.amistadresource.org/LBimages ... 7-2010.jpg

Such images are 'produced' (read: manipulated) by journalists, making it a vital aim of any police force to keep those as far away as possible.

(of course, we don't even know what's happening in that photo)

At selected ISIS camps in Syria/Iraq that fireman would be conducting an act of mercy.

[free thoughtpolice]

brive wrote:

I've seen far too many guys go to jelly and jazz hands away their future in the immediate breakup period. Probably in the secret hope something is salvageable.

Lots of good advice here. Protect yourself and your money, forget about trying to work through anything at this point.
Get rid of her and move on. Too many guys can't let a finished relationship go and end up just making it harder for themselves in the long run.

[Steersman]

<snip>
Bit of a stretch to blame me because you've inferred some things that are not at all justified by what I've written.

Yeah, my bad...

Ta.

Steers wrote:

But the natives are getting decidedly restless about their fearless leaders fiddling while Rome burns - there's going to be hell to pay if those leaders don't get their acts together; maybe even if they do. Cases in point:

Or not.

The head of your own intelligence services would seem to agree more with the affirmative than with the negative:

France is 'on the verge of a civil war' which could be sparked by a mass sexual assault on women by migrants, intelligence chief warns

• France is on the verge of 'civil war', the country's head of intelligence says
• Patrick Calvar said mass sexual assault of women by migrants may start it
• Believes situation so tense another terror attack could also spark backlash
• More than 1,000 women sexually abused in Germany on New Year's Eve

Growing tensions between the ‘extreme Right and the Muslim world’ have pushed France to the ‘verge of a civil war’, the country’s most senior security chief has warned.
Patrick Calvar, head of the General Directorate for Internal Security (DGSI) – France’s equivalent of MI5 – made his claim in the wake of last year’s terrorist attacks on Paris.
A total of 147 people were murdered by terrorists in the capital during atrocities in January and November.
Many of those responsible were French passport holders with North African backgrounds, leading to far-Right politicians calling for a massive clampdown on immigration.
But Mr Calvar, 60, warned there is evidence that radical Right-wing French groups have been massing arms in preparation for their own attacks on mosques and synagogues. ....

Somewhat of a case in point:

EUROPE IN FLAMES Islamic centre burnt down in the Netherlands by suspected far-right arsonist as tensions continue to rise across the continent
Firefighters filmed arriving on the scene amid fears there may have been worshippers trapped inside
BY NEAL BAKER 29th December 2016, 4:14 pm ....

Not a big fan of vigilante action as it can go sideways pretty quickly (The Ox-Bow Incident). But when the civil authorities are clearly unwilling or unable to deal with the problem then it's hard not conclude that civil war is already the defacto state of affairs. Which tends to change the "rules of engagement" ...

[paddybrown]

One thing to add to Johnself's situation. I haven't been in a situation anywhere near as devastating as you have. But I've been in situations where I've had to realise that a person I believed I loved was not the person I thought she was, the person she'd spent some time convincing me she was. That's really fucking hard, but you've got to do it, because she's going to be even more cruel and greedy during the divorce process and you've got to be completely hard-hearted about it if you're going to get the best settlement you can.

[paddybrown]

The girl you loved does not exist. She was an illusion, and the loss of that illusion is one of the most heartbreaking things there is.

Don't try and appeal to her conscience. Trying to make a cruel woman feel guilty over how she's treated you is like trying to get your own back on Mike Tyson by challenging him to a boxing match. Guilt is her weapon. She's spent years training herself how to use it with devastating precision. You haven't.

[Brive1987]

I'd just add don't leave it too long as as to hand the initiative back to her.

But don't rush into a head to head until you have covered all bases and can (subject to the complexity of your assets) present a fait accompli.

Fuck the emotional confrontation.

You knowing about her and her not being aware gives you a practical advantage.

[ConcentratedH2O, OM]

Johnself.

Bugger.

I'd reiterate the sound advice to be practical now. Leave the tears for outside the danger zone this is not the time to ask "why" or beg or rationalise with her. She is screwing another man she is emotionally coupled to. That's the reality. Your time together is over.

Work out who is going to move out. What's the lease arrangements?
Secure your money NOW.
Come up with your plan about how this is going to play out.
Don't squander the shock and awe moment of your discovery with weeping and perceived weakness.

At some point very soon you need to be able to say strongly "Bugger you and your deception. Here's what's going to happen - yep take 50% of our shared things. Nothing from my parents wedding gift. I keep xxxx and xxx. You get silence from me on what you have done ie I won't release your texts. But you are out of the house. Yes. At some point I'd be interested in "why". But not today. Here is the break-solution in writing."

.......

I am very sorry you are going through this - but for a week or so you need to man up and control the situation. Then you can play 1980s power ballads.

If you can't do this consider a neutral third party proxy. But that's second 11.

Is the house owned? Whose name/s is on the mortgage? Same for home rental agreements, those can be expensive to get out from. Same for car loans.

SECURE ALL AVAILABLE DOCUMENTS. Also, photograph them and email the photos to a friend who can keep the files separately for in case she gets access to and deletes your Cloud.

Do oyou have a job? How is your relationship with bosses? Maybe be up front right now and warn them they could hear bullshit about you?

REMEMBER: you no longer know this person, she is now nothing more than a random person who wants to cause you harm and take your money. Shit could get crazy, no matter what you think you know about them.

[Brive1987]

Skepticon's use of PayPal for legal donations (rather than a crowd sourced campaign) says heaps about their assumed ground swell of support.

They rightly conclude that receiving a total of $22.45c would simply embolden the opposing Carrier force.

[Steersman]

Howdy all; I am kind of in the shitter so I will tell the tale of my Christmas, "The Brown Marriage", a tale in 7 acts: ...

Sorry to hear it; sure looks like "she done you wrong" - getting married when she was apparently in another relationship looks rather callous or mercenary at best.

However, on the basis of some experience, while your feelings are likely to be kind of raw, and you're unlikely to manage much in the way of being philosophical, I'd suggest trying to be as fair as possible; you may wish to reflect on the old adage that the sex one gets for free frequently turns out to be more expensive than the sex one pays for.

[CaptainFluffyBunny]

Skepticon's use of PayPal for legal donations (rather than a crowd sourced campaign) says heaps about their assumed ground swell of support.

They rightly conclude that receiving a total of $22.45c would simply embolden the opposing Carrier force.

Speaking of Carrier, did SSA and Camp Quest ever release that transparent investigation? I know Carrier's polycule (why does that sound like a toenail infection?) was rendered unemployed, but I can't recall if the reasons why were outlined. They promised a certain transparency in the investigation.

[Aneris]

Sorry to hear Johnself.

I don't believe she was deceptive to move forward with the marriage. I don't know her, but it happened before that people take big relationship steps to gain (back) something that faded away, fill emptiness and are hoping that the big step fixes it for them. Alternatively, some people enthusiastically jump in, but once it's done, feelings of midlife crisis, panic of having missed out and such take over. It can be a combination of both, feeling that it got stale and that taking the step makes it fresh, but then finding out that it didn't bring the big effect, and the romantic disappointment settles in.

The other tips are good. Though, you should also be confident and assertive. You seem to accept how she walks over you, and yes, that makes it a lot worse. I know it's harsh, but being the Arthur Puty does not do you any favour. It does the exact opposite. She might intitially be attracted to a bit of adventure, but then found that her husband seems to not really care, or is emotionally unable to draw a line somewhere. This is often misunderstood as the Nice Guy syndrome, seemingly caring and understanding everything, but — in the wrong context — just looks like emotionally immature, desinterested, not willing to fight etc. For example, when she goes out routinely and especially on important days, and you never say anything, it comes across as if you don't really care. She would have appreciated it, perhaps, had you showed her disapproval (appreciated, not expected or hoped, that would be manipulative and is rather rare). I hate to say so, but such kind of situations aren't exactly uncommon and they are not as manipulative as they seem. Often times people just do things without thinking, but being called back can feel nice. The thing is, excessive tolerance and niceness is indistinguishable from being immature, emotionally detached, etc. you have to show what you want and what's important to you.

Should it be truly unfixable, the advice here sounds good. Hang in there. A lot of people I know fooled around or wasted years on some relationship, or were even married to their teenage love. They then found The One in their late thirties, fourties, whatever married and boom, things went rather fast. Biology plays some role, for sure, but it is also that at some point there's maturity and experience that puts everything on a fast track. Don't worry too much about that now.

[Easy J]

** obviously my proposal was a model one and should be guided by legal advice **

Point is to confirm you are breaking this off on your terms and she is not in a strong moral and PR position to dictate. Implicitly shame her for leverage. Generously conceded what you legally must but get what you want and need on a practical level so you can rebuild. Execute a plan.

I've seen far too many guys go to jelly and jazz hands away their future in the immediate breakup period. Probably in the secret hope something is salvageable.

^^this^^

I'd post more if I weren't at work, but I'll second all the stuff about having resolve now, no matter what you're feeling. I "went jelly" & jazz handsed away everything because I got hit with it all on her schedule when she was ready & had her stuff in order. You have the initiative here. You still have time to absorb the emotional hit & steel yourself to follow your cold reason.

I'll also second the stuff about her not & never having been the person you still love. That person was never real. This person is a piece of shit & deserves no consideration. No one who loved you would be doing this to you. She never deserved you. It isn't in you to do to her what she's doing to you. She didn't even hide her contempt for you while betraying you. And she's still doing it. You're conscience is clear moving forward. #Teamjohnself

[Keating]

All the best, johnself. Do your best to look out for future you, he'll appreciate it and you a lot for the strength you show now.

[Brive1987]

Skepticon's use of PayPal for legal donations (rather than a crowd sourced campaign) says heaps about their assumed ground swell of support.

They rightly conclude that receiving a total of $22.45c would simply embolden the opposing Carrier force.

Speaking of Carrier, did SSA and Camp Quest ever release that transparent investigation? I know Carrier's polycule (why does that sound like a toenail infection?) was rendered unemployed, but I can't recall if the reasons why were outlined. They promised a certain transparency in the investigation.

From Camp Quest - they had the dreaded "mixed emotions" and ...

Amanda is excited, and admittedly a little nervous, about this next journey. She shared, "I am leaving a radically different organization than the one that existed when I started on staff. Personally and professionally, I have come to recognize that it is time to move forward with a new direction in my life. I depart with warm wishes for Camp Quest's continued success and evolution."

SSA talked of "transition" to better and brighter.

Note August wrote his own obit praise - the Board only noted what the Org did while under his control and limited direct praise to a mere:

We are grateful and proud to have August’s commitment to continue leading the SSA throughout this transition process, and his enthusiasm for bringing on “a new leader with new ideas and a new perspective that will stagger us all.”

https://secularstudents.org/augusttransition

As always it's what's not said that speaks loudest. Though the intent here is unambiguous. Managed exit per deed of release.

[ROBOKiTTY]

You think you understand terrorism, I am afraid you don't.

Look at the armchair expert. On what grounds can you claim to have a better understanding of terrorism?

We only have a few options that will work. One is brutal suppression, collective punishments, kill their families, drop mustard gas on their villages, bury their bodies in bacon fat, these sorts of methods are tried and tested and proven to work.

Classy. All of these contrary to western values.

Before you trot out that argument that 'those are not universal western values', there are no universal western values. Freedom of speech is not universally accepted in the west. Nor freedom of religion. Nor acceptance of LGBT people. Nor human rights and the scientific method, as you so blithely demonstrate. Progressive western values have always been under assault from within, often from the right.

[CommanderTuvok]

Have the MRA community distanced themselves from the increasingly Mabus-like Dean Esmay?

Also, Johnself. That is fucking far out, man.

[ROBOKiTTY]

@johnself

There's been a lot of advice and psychologizing on the board, but my advice is not to succumb to fundamental attribution error. You've known her for 8+ years, so you know her and the situation best. Although people on the outside may offer some insight, they necessarily do so from partial understanding, and it falls to you to decide how to approach the situation. Things may or may not be salvageable. Don't be egged on by others into something you'll regret. It never hurts to be prudent. Take care of yourself.

[Brive1987]

I'd post more if I weren't at work, but I'll second all the stuff about having resolve now, no matter what you're feeling. I "went jelly" & jazz handsed away everything because I got hit with it all on her schedule when she was ready & had her stuff in order. You have the initiative here. You still have time to absorb the emotional hit & steel yourself to follow your cold reason.

I'll also second the stuff about her not & never having been the person you still love. That person was never real. This person is a piece of shit & deserves no consideration. No one who loved you would be doing this to you. She never deserved you. It isn't in you to do to her what she's doing to you. She didn't even hide her contempt for you while betraying you. And she's still doing it. You're conscience is clear moving forward. #Teamjohnself

Yes.

Imagine walking in with a legally defensible settlement weighted in your favour on lawyer letterhead.

"It's over. For you sake I hope this doesn't get public and ugly. So here is a document which, given the circumstances, has been verified "fair". It acknowledges the events leading to our split. It provides enough for me to move on. I am prepared to dig-in on these terms. It also allows you a public facing "no fault confidentiality" clause.

I'll give you 24 hrs to get your own advice but I'm not interested in horse trading. Email me whether this is going to be easy or hard. If I don't hear from you by xxxx with a definite anwser I'll assume we are going to the wire."

And oh. Your SMS's were amazing.

Kind regards
Ex-husband "

[Brive1987]

@johnself

There's been a lot of advice and psychologizing on the board, but my advice is not to succumb to fundamental attribution error. You've known her for 8+ years, so you know her and the situation best. Although people on the outside may offer some insight, they necessarily do so from partial understanding, and it falls to you to decide how to approach the situation. Things may or may not be salvageable. Don't be egged on by others into something you'll regret. It never hurts to be prudent. Take care of yourself.

Worst advice ever.

Just saying.

[Brive1987]

https://i.imgflip.com/1gzkyp.jpg

[Brive1987]

"Heinrich"

Whatevers.

[Steersman]

Also, spare me the breathless bullshit about "western values". Free societies cost something. If we let people choose their religion, think and say what they want, we'll have people believing dangerous bullshit that isn't compatible with our values. If we let people own guns to defend themselves, some of those people will use the guns to shoot elementary school kids. Every freedom has a downside, and those downsides inevitably spawn claques of shrieking cowards, begging to be put in safe spaces rather than face the scary thing on the news. But that isn't "Justice" in any useful sense. Its "Justice" in the same sense as Social Justice: "prioritize my safety over the rights and freedoms of those other people, because I'm convinced I'm in terrible danger". Your threat narrative is less pathetic than some of the SJW ones (no one is dying from twitter "harassment") but it takes the same basic form.

No, it is "prioritize my safety over the rights and freedoms a bunch of savages who don't have any right to be in my country and don't deserve it's freedom". Instead of fighting for freedom in their own countries, they come here to take mine. They want to make the West the same as the hell holes they come from. My culture has no obligation to hand over it's cities to become ghettos ruled under Sharia law. ...

I have no idea what this is actually supposed to mean, but when you start talking about "savages who don't have any right to be in my country" and "revenge" it sounds like you are calling for pogroms. The problem you are going to face (in at least most of the western countries you could be talking about - I don't know where you live) is that many of those "savages" are already citizens, and have the same legal right to your country that you do. Targeting those people on the basis of their religion alone isn't "justice".

I certainly didn't hear any "call for pograms" in that - maybe an overactive imagination? And one might suggest that religion isn't any type of get-out-of-jail-free card. Far too much pandering to the religious in the way of special exemptions, although that is, of course, a consequence of the god-besotted American electorate.

I don't know what the actual things you are advocating are, but in my view immigration control and refugee vetting are on the table. The US does these things, and I think its safe to say we are having fewer problems with Islamic terrorism than Europe is. If you want some actual information about how that works here are links ( https://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2015/11 ... ted-states , http://time.com/4116619/syrian-refugees ... g-process/). If you are talking about deporting people who have entered your country illegally, then that is also fine.

That it is on the table doesn't mean that it is effective or isn't being circumvented by political biases and agendas. NPR:

Some officials, including FBI Director James Comey, worry there are what Comey has called "gaps" in the vetting process. Experts say U.S. intelligence in Syria isn't very good, because the U.S. lacks much of a presence on the ground. So there's no way to compile a thorough watch list of possible terrorists from Syria against which refugees can be checked.

And I expect that the reason the US - and Canada - are "having fewer problems" is because we're not on the Eurasian continent with Syria and other Islamic hellholes. And because we haven't been as clueless as Merkel in throwing open the gates of Troy to the candy shop. And one made even larger because the EU Schengen Area did away with border controls and allows free movement.

My reaction was to Steersman, who routinely posts a lot of sensationalist crap (especially from twitter - which is a hilarious medium to use for following "current events") and then calls for Muslims ( not illegal immigrants or people on temporary visas - just Muslims) to renounce Islam or be shipped off to wherever.

While I'll readily concede that there's far too much bogus "news" and outright propaganda on Twitter, it's also a very effective way of disseminating real information that the #MSM refuses to print. And they're just as guilty, if not more so, of peddling the same fake news and propaganda - see "Fake News" And How The Washington Post Rewrote Its Story On Russian Hacking Of The Power Grid.

How do we deal with that? Well, I don't know, but I'm hoping the people in charge are cooler about it than you lot. Given that part of the strategy of terrorists is to create hysteria, I don't think posting a bunch of hysterical rhetoric is a smart response. It increases their prestige, and makes them more significant.

Appeasement, or even not calling a spade a shovel, tends not to work all that well.

I also think its pretty important that whatever solutions are tried, they target proven threats and not unconnected Lebanese American shopkeepers in Dearborn, or Iranian doctoral students at MSU who are here on a student visa. The existence of barbarians within a particular ideology does not give you permission to target all the adherents of that ideology, and doing so would not be "justice" or "western values".

You seem rather reluctant to even consider the argument that those "unconnected shopkeepers or students", those "moderates", aren't culpable, to some extent, for the depredations of the extremists in their fellow-traveler crowd. Consider: The Josiah Effect: How Moderate Religion Fuels Fundamentalism. And:

[ConcentratedH2O, OM]

That is fucking far out, man.

I had to chuckle at one of the most English people here using that phrase! ;) :lol: 8-) 8-)

[CaptainFluffyBunny]

@johnself

There's been a lot of advice and psychologizing on the board, but my advice is not to succumb to fundamental attribution error. You've known her for 8+ years, so you know her and the situation best. Although people on the outside may offer some insight, they necessarily do so from partial understanding, and it falls to you to decide how to approach the situation. Things may or may not be salvageable. Don't be egged on by others into something you'll regret. It never hurts to be prudent. Take care of yourself.

Worst advice ever.

Just saying.

This indeed. There were several warning signs in johnself's posts, talking about past infidelities, her ambivalence or hostility after the ceremony. Not to mention the hopefully unsolicited off by the new boyfriend to beat johnself up.

Allowing the possibility of salvage would leave nearly any man too open to manipulation and self-sabotage. If the events are as he says they are, this is not a person worth the effort and pain of working it through.

Way too many people, men and women, get caught up in emotional ties and false hope or self-pity when they need to keep a level head and cut themselves free of those ties. I'm afraid Robikittie's advice, however well-meaning, would make a very difficult task nearly impossible.

[rayshul]

That's awful, johnself. I'm really sorry about the situation.

Now get the fuck out of there as fast as you can, and as others have said, get your docs in order, get your lawyers sorted, check to see if you can have this marriage annulled and keep track of all the dates involved. Do a Brive and create a timeline. And get out, get out, get out. This woman is literally paying her whore man from your account. Disengage, reverse, back up, get out, don't look back.

[pro-boxing-fan]

Im so sorry johnself. I never had a failing relationship complicated like your situation and all common sense advices i can think of have already been mentioned already. And they're good advices in my opinion.

The only minor thing i could add: You're the one who's been cheated on, always remember that. Don't tolerate any feign outrage she could express at you for things she might not like about the decisions you will have to make in the near future. She does not have the moral high ground for whatever that mean, you're the one who's been wronged and she's the one who did it. Also, stay away from the new lover, just ignore him, he's not relevant and has no say in the shit that will happen between you and your ex/future-ex. Oh and try to stay sober for a couple of weeks if you can.

Stay strong buddy.

[John D]

@johnself

There's been a lot of advice and psychologizing on the board, but my advice is not to succumb to fundamental attribution error. You've known her for 8+ years, so you know her and the situation best. Although people on the outside may offer some insight, they necessarily do so from partial understanding, and it falls to you to decide how to approach the situation. Things may or may not be salvageable. Don't be egged on by others into something you'll regret. It never hurts to be prudent. Take care of yourself.

Worst advice ever.

Just saying.

Marriage is a vow, and while we are not religious here, a vow still carries great weight. Not only did Mrs. Johnself break her vow after she made it, she was actively breaking it during the ceremony. I would never be able to live with someone like this.

Of course, there are odd exceptions. A wife of one of my employees was staying out nights, hooking up with strange guys, deserting his kids, etc. She suffers from manic depression whoever. Her meds went out of wack and she became a different person. He tried to help her, but she left the state. He filed for divorce because she was out of his life. But, she called him from half way across the country one day (before the divorce was final) and said she was in the hospital getting her meds fixed. She found a doctor that helped her and she asked to come back. She apologized and he drove out to get her. They have been happy for 6 years now.

Sure, stuff happens. But, with the exception of mental illness, I would not be able to forgive my wife if she acted like Mrs. Johnself. Not a fucking chance. Of course, this is just my opinion.

[Steersman]

Yea, bit of a howler. Don't think "Old_ones" - along with many others - has been keeping up with current events. Bit of a primer: <snip>

Indeed.

I have the somewhat fortunate ability to tap into the current "state of play" via friends and colleagues in the MOD - trust me, Islamic terrorism is far from disorganized. Based upon conversations I've had in the past couple of months alone, if anything, Ibrahim McTowelhead and his jolly band of child killers are greatly increasing their sophistication, tactics and levels of determination. It's gotten that bad, we've got COIN cells here in the UK! For fuck sake, if that's not a combat indicator*, I don't know what it!

"COIN"?

Obviously, because the loony left don't want to upset the precious feelings of goat fuckers the world over, they manipulate the masses via the MSM and greatly downplay just how serious the problem is. We are well and truly at war (we have been for quite some time) but don't mind those mass shootings and trucks magically driving through crowds of innocent shoppers, look over there, Kim Kardashian got her arse out again!

Yea. "Bread and circuses", indeed. Though I note that Merkel had enough sense to have the local gendarmerie out in force on New Year's Eve which seems to have forced the local "savages" to keep their heads down. But sure think the authorities are going to have to read the Riot Act - or deport several 100k of Muslims - before there are pitched battles in the streets.

England prevails!

http://p7.storage.canalblog.com/77/10/9 ... 237290.jpg ....

Learn something new everyday. :-) But somewhat apropos of which, while it is not a particularly popular position, one might argue that fascism gets somewhat of an unjustified bad press, at least considering the content of the root word, i.e., fasces.

[free thoughtpolice]

@johnself

There's been a lot of advice and psychologizing on the board, but my advice is not to succumb to fundamental attribution error. You've known her for 8+ years, so you know her and the situation best. Although people on the outside may offer some insight, they necessarily do so from partial understanding, and it falls to you to decide how to approach the situation. Things may or may not be salvageable. Don't be egged on by others into something you'll regret. It never hurts to be prudent. Take care of yourself.

She cheated on him before, she did it again just before the wedding, and again after the wedding. She's currently at best keeping him in the dark, and given her deceptive behavior patterns could be up to more.
A lot of men and women too can be blind to being exploited by a person they love that are acting in bad faith.
I agree with the be prudent and the take care of yourself, with emphasis on yourself.
At any rate, it's up to him to make the decision his johnself.

[ROBOKiTTY]

But somewhat apropos of which, while it is not a particularly popular position, one might argue that fascism gets somewhat of an unjustified bad press, at least considering the content of the root word, i.e., fasces.

:doh:

[HelpingHand]

"COIN"?

COunter INsurgency The military hunting of hostiles blending in with civilian populations.

Burz...that documented publicly or info from old mates?

[franc]

Other Esmay news -

[...]

All 46 minutes of batshittery -

That's somebody on the edge of a shooting spree.

Yup. That's why I decided to document him. Of course Dean has a different assessment -

[Brive1987]

I'm noticing in the news that when forced into a corner ISIS is now a convenient coverall to avoid "Radical Homegrowth Islam"

Like these bastards have been dropped OAS style into the woods at night with morse radio and black beanie.

[Brive1987]

PZ now has to avoid Berlin AND Istanbul.

Chasing Lucas Werner over the Internet has never been more important .......

[Steersman]

But somewhat apropos of which, while it is not a particularly popular position, one might argue that fascism gets somewhat of an unjustified bad press, at least considering the content of the root word, i.e., fasces.

:doh:

:lol: I wonder, did you even bother to read any of the linked article? But you might note and consider this quote from the linked article on fascism itself: "Professor Richard Griffiths of the University of Wales[63] wrote in 2005 that 'fascism' is the 'most misused, and over-used word, of our times'. ..."

[Steersman]

"COIN"?

COunter INsurgency The military hunting of hostiles blending in with civilian populations. ...

Ta.

[Brive1987]

:popcorn:

[ROBOKiTTY]

My bias should be clear from posts I've made in the past. I don't believe in the sanctity of monogamy. Therefore, I almost never consider 'infidelity' per se (unless an explicit verbal or written contract was made) to be a deal-breaker. There's no evidence of malicious manipulation, except as imagined or projected by people. To let something like this wreck a relationship of nearly a decade would be very unfortunate, if there is indeed any hope and mutual desire of keeping it together.

There's been a lot of advice to burn all bridges. That may be inevitable, but it helps no one to see that as the first option. I merely added a dissenting voice.

[ROBOKiTTY]

:lol: I wonder, did you even bother to read any of the linked article? But you might note and consider this quote from the linked article on fascism itself: "Professor Richard Griffiths of the University of Wales[63] wrote in 2005 that 'fascism' is the 'most misused, and over-used word, of our times'. ..."

So is the word 'nazi'. Does that mean Nazism has gotten an unjustified bad rep? :roll:

[Brive1987]

My bias should be clear from posts I've made in the past. I don't believe in the sanctity of monogamy. Therefore, I almost never consider 'infidelity' per se (unless an explicit verbal or written contract was made) to be a deal-breaker. There's no evidence of malicious manipulation, except as imagined or projected by people. To let something like this wreck a relationship of nearly a decade would be very unfortunate, if there is indeed any hope and mutual desire of keeping it together.

There's been a lot of advice to burn all bridges. That may be inevitable, but it helps no one to see that as the first option. I merely added a dissenting voice.

The marriage vows constitute an explicit verbal contract. Johnself appears at least to be under that illusion.

No. The game is on. And as General Nathan Bedford Forrest said: "get there firstest with the mostest".

[ConcentratedH2O, OM]

Also, stay away from the new lover, just ignore him, he's not relevant and has no say in the shit that will happen between you and your ex/future-ex.

Yep.

IGNORE HIM, he has no legal input here, just imagine him as a dildo she is leaving you for.

SECURE ALL DOCUMENTS, with copies (at least) stored with a trusted third party (ideally one who has never met her).

GET TO AN ATTORNEY before you let her know that you know.

SHE IS NOW JUST A WEIRD, UNKNOWN STALKER WHO WANTS YOUR MONEY, YOUR JOB, AND ALL OF YOUR FRIENDS TO LEAVE YOU. Deal with that concept, quickly.

THIS IS NOT THE TIME FOR ASKING WHY. This is the time to do or (financially) die. Ask all those questions once the legal system has completely separated her from your money. Cry all you want in a year or two, just secure your long term future right now.

[Steersman]

:lol: I wonder, did you even bother to read any of the linked article? But you might note and consider this quote from the linked article on fascism itself: "Professor Richard Griffiths of the University of Wales[63] wrote in 2005 that 'fascism' is the 'most misused, and over-used word, of our times'. ..."

So is the word 'nazi'. Does that mean Nazism has gotten an unjustified bad rep? :roll:

Not really the same kettles of fish. Just because one word has gotten a "bad rep" doesn't mean that all which have a such a reputation have it with justification.

And you still haven't indicated whether you read the first linked article on fasces. You might wish to first reflect on another of Harris' tweets/retweets:

[ConcentratedH2O, OM]

My bias should be clear from posts I've made in the past. I don't believe in the sanctity of monogamy. Therefore, I almost never consider 'infidelity' per se (unless an explicit verbal or written contract was made) to be a deal-breaker. There's no evidence of malicious manipulation, except as imagined or projected by people. To let something like this wreck a relationship of nearly a decade would be very unfortunate, if there is indeed any hope and mutual desire of keeping it together.

There's been a lot of advice to burn all bridges. That may be inevitable, but it helps no one to see that as the first option. I merely added a dissenting voice.

Kitty, I think people are responding not about the infidelity, per se, but (given the legal situation of marriage) with in-your-face advice to shake johnself into the mode he likely, and realistically, needs to be in: self-protection now for long-term security.

[Steersman]

Also, stay away from the new lover, just ignore him, he's not relevant and has no say in the shit that will happen between you and your ex/future-ex.

Yep.

IGNORE HIM, he has no legal input here, just imagine him as a dildo she is leaving you for.

:lol: Not sure how that qualifies as "encouraging" ....

SECURE ALL DOCUMENTS, with copies (at least) stored with a trusted third party (ideally one who has never met her).

GET TO AN ATTORNEY before you let her know that you know.

SHE IS NOW JUST A WEIRD, UNKNOWN STALKER WHO WANTS YOUR MONEY, YOUR JOB, AND ALL OF YOUR FRIENDS TO LEAVE YOU. Deal with that concept, quickly.

THIS IS NOT THE TIME FOR ASKING WHY. This is the time to do or (financially) die. Ask all those questions once the legal system has completely separated her from your money. Cry all you want in a year or two, just secure your long term future right now.

Seems kind of a "scorched-earth" policy, suggesting less a rational assessment of johnself's position than maybe a reflection of one that has a more personal component ....

[rayshul]

The woman is literally spending his fucking money on her angry violent little whore.

The dude literally just married this thing which is already lying to him.

This isn't some poly shit this is a fucking thief and a liar.

Fucking hell if johnself was here I'd be like, get your stuff, come to my place, I will screen your fucking calls mate. Burn all the bridges, man. Get out without any ties. As fast as possible. Ditch it, drop it, there are other women and most of them won't steal your parents $$.

[DrokkIt]

I'm noticing in the news that when forced into a corner ISIS is now a convenient coverall to avoid "Radical Homegrowth Islam"

Yep was thinking this earlier whilst watching the news.
With Merkel's attitude changing there is a rhetoric shift going down, and that usually leads to some kind of half-brained war response. Meanwhile loads of people just find this stuff on the internet and in mosques. Pretty worrying.

[Karmakin]

My bias should be clear from posts I've made in the past. I don't believe in the sanctity of monogamy. Therefore, I almost never consider 'infidelity' per se (unless an explicit verbal or written contract was made) to be a deal-breaker. There's no evidence of malicious manipulation, except as imagined or projected by people. To let something like this wreck a relationship of nearly a decade would be very unfortunate, if there is indeed any hope and mutual desire of keeping it together.

There's been a lot of advice to burn all bridges. That may be inevitable, but it helps no one to see that as the first option. I merely added a dissenting voice.

Honestly, I'm not that big on monogamy myself. HOWEVER. This is not the issue at play.

This seems to me to be an extremely abusive relationship. Hands down. To me that's the concept here. The lies, the deceit, the being taken advantage of, and so on. Just plain abusive.

[free thoughtpolice]

#teamrayshul

[CaptainFluffyBunny]

My bias should be clear from posts I've made in the past. I don't believe in the sanctity of monogamy. Therefore, I almost never consider 'infidelity' per se (unless an explicit verbal or written contract was made) to be a deal-breaker. There's no evidence of malicious manipulation, except as imagined or projected by people. To let something like this wreck a relationship of nearly a decade would be very unfortunate, if there is indeed any hope and mutual desire of keeping it together.

There's been a lot of advice to burn all bridges. That may be inevitable, but it helps no one to see that as the first option. I merely added a dissenting voice.

Can you imagine a benevolent scenario when it appears she married the man while in the middle if an affair that was wholly unknown to him? She talked about marriage and a family, but dropped it nearly the moment they were married.

This was at best a vile deception, or quite possibly a deliberate con. If you go into any contract, monogamous or not, without the possession of key facts, that contract is now worthless. She intentionally deceived him. How is that possibly worth salvaging? When someone callously ruins your hopes with deception, that should be it, unless you have a particular passion to be a doormat.

[johnself]

Thanks for all the advice. Too many people have chimed in that I can answer you in turn but I really appreciate it.

I am a bit drained right now so I will keep this update brief. I am not in the US so the annulment laws are likely different. For instance, I don't think the infidelity means a thing, and she has a lot of legal rights anyway due to the length of our relationships.

Anyway, we had the talk. Normally I agree it would be an idea to not get soft but with this girl, if I seem angry or hard, she is going to match it, and the best way to have the conversation and appeal to her decency was to get her emotional. I don't want to bore you with the blow-by-blow but I told her why I wanted to marry her, that I did love her, that I wanted her to be happy and that was why I would support her in breaking up our marriage so she could be with this guy, I just wanted to know why (insert a lot of jazz-hands here). Anyway, lots of crying and me asking for "why". I got no real response asides "I am a bad person". I honestly think she did it as an act of self-destruction, like an alcoholic who drinks.

I did learn a few things. Apparently Mr. Right is, according to her, a criminal who have "been in jail 14 times". I guess that would make him a shit criminal or a criminal who makes things up. In fact, it seems nearly mathematically impossible. I am keeping the option open she has an ability to fake emotions worthy of Hollywood but I feel this is true and now that I think about it, there were some hints of him being abusive in the messages I read and it would generally be consistent with what I know, but, well, why she would want to live with this guy makes no sense at all to me.

She also claims he is dangerous for her and me, that he is involved with some kind of organized crime, but I doubt that. They met when I was away but she was crying too much to give any details. She admitted to giving him money but said it was not a large amount (I am guessing about 500-1000$ total by the texting history) and there have not been any drugs in our apartment nor has she been doing any trafficking.

I spend some time talking her out of committing suicide (I can't know if this was credible or not but it might have been) and she then went for a walk. I don't really care if it is for Mr. Right but she went without makeup and that pretty much rules out any social interaction in her case -- of least significance, she said it was not for Mr. Right.

We did not talk settlement and splitting of our stuff but I feel more optimistic she wants a way out whole. I realize everything she says can be bullshit but her reaction would be hard to fake. I am happy about the support I have been getting... this place is probably the last place to go but it does mean something. I am surprised nobody has called this story bullshit yet or asked for more nudes.

I am aware there is a chance this is a get-rich scheme by Mr. Right. So far I am seeing no evidence of that and I think it would somehow be reflected in the texting history. I think it is more plausible he is a sorry looser she is fucking. Also I learned the guy is a Muslim, which is funny because she sometimes says things that would make Steersman pale.

[Lsuoma]

Dude - cut the communication with her now. It's hard, but by being open and speaking with her you risk making an irrevocable error. Lawyer up now, and let that person be your front - she won't be able to fuck with them the way she can (and will) with you.

[rayshul]

Excellent. When she's rational get out, get out clean, cut everything.

[Lsuoma]

Don't forget - the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior.

[ConcentratedH2O, OM]

Thanks for all the advice. Too many people have chimed in that I can answer you in turn but I really appreciate it.

I am a bit drained right now so I will keep this update brief. I am not in the US so the annulment laws are likely different. For instance, I don't think the infidelity means a thing, and she has a lot of legal rights anyway due to the length of our relationships.

Anyway, we had the talk. Normally I agree it would be an idea to not get soft but with this girl, if I seem angry or hard, she is going to match it, and the best way to have the conversation and appeal to her decency was to get her emotional. I don't want to bore you with the blow-by-blow but I told her why I wanted to marry her, that I did love her, that I wanted her to be happy and that was why I would support her in breaking up our marriage so she could be with this guy, I just wanted to know why (insert a lot of jazz-hands here). Anyway, lots of crying and me asking for "why". I got no real response asides "I am a bad person". I honestly think she did it as an act of self-destruction, like an alcoholic who drinks.

I did learn a few things. Apparently Mr. Right is, according to her, a criminal who have "been in jail 14 times". I guess that would make him a shit criminal or a criminal who makes things up. In fact, it seems nearly mathematically impossible. I am keeping the option open she has an ability to fake emotions worthy of Hollywood but I feel this is true and now that I think about it, there were some hints of him being abusive in the messages I read and it would generally be consistent with what I know, but, well, why she would want to live with this guy makes no sense at all to me.

She also claims he is dangerous for her and me, that he is involved with some kind of organized crime, but I doubt that. They met when I was away but she was crying too much to give any details. She admitted to giving him money but said it was not a large amount (I am guessing about 500-1000$ total by the texting history) and there have not been any drugs in our apartment nor has she been doing any trafficking.

I spend some time talking her out of committing suicide (I can't know if this was credible or not but it might have been) and she then went for a walk. I don't really care if it is for Mr. Right but she went without makeup and that pretty much rules out any social interaction in her case -- of least significance, she said it was not for Mr. Right.

We did not talk settlement and splitting of our stuff but I feel more optimistic she wants a way out whole. I realize everything she says can be bullshit but her reaction would be hard to fake. I am happy about the support I have been getting... this place is probably the last place to go but it does mean something. I am surprised nobody has called this story bullshit yet or asked for more nudes.

I am aware there is a chance this is a get-rich scheme by Mr. Right. So far I am seeing no evidence of that and I think it would somehow be reflected in the texting history. I think it is more plausible he is a sorry looser she is fucking. Also I learned the guy is a Muslim, which is funny because she sometimes says things that would make Steersman pale.

Well, we tried. :roll: :( :popcorn:

[johnself]

My bias should be clear from posts I've made in the past. I don't believe in the sanctity of monogamy. Therefore, I almost never consider 'infidelity' per se (unless an explicit verbal or written contract was made) to be a deal-breaker. There's no evidence of malicious manipulation, except as imagined or projected by people. To let something like this wreck a relationship of nearly a decade would be very unfortunate, if there is indeed any hope and mutual desire of keeping it together.

There's been a lot of advice to burn all bridges. That may be inevitable, but it helps no one to see that as the first option. I merely added a dissenting voice.

She has been unfaithful to me on a previous occasion which we got over.
As for having a contract and monogamy, well, I don't get how you can chat with someone you are unfaithful with the same day you are getting married and promising someone you're going to be faithful for the rest of your life. And I am not just talking about hello but like a lot of chat messages all day... that's next-level kind of fucked up in my book especially as she is very jealous.

[ROBOKiTTY]

Not really the same kettles of fish. Just because one word has gotten a "bad rep" doesn't mean that all which have a such a reputation have it with justification.

And you still haven't indicated whether you read the first linked article on fasces. You might wish to first reflect on another of Harris' tweets/retweets:
[snip tweet]

Of course I read the article. I don't see what a Wikipedia article on the symbolism of fasces has to do with the ideology. Overuse of the term 'fascism', like with the term 'nazism', has only watered down its meaning, so what many people consider fascism nowadays is in fact much milder than the version practised by the Italian and German fascists. It seems you are advocating that original system, while you sit in the comfort of your home, in a country that has fortunately barely ever been touched by warfare, tyranny, or terrorism. You should probably reflect on the freedoms you enjoy and how much you take them for granted. Every time you point the finger, four more point straight back at you.

[Suet Cardigan]

I've just watched this video:

[youtube][/youtube]

It's about this article by an Aussie feminist:

http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/news-an ... tex2e.html

Here's the fourth paragraph:

Sick02.jpg

(57.99 KiB) Downloaded 155 times

Here's the same paragraph from the archived original version of the article:

SICK.jpg

(51.42 KiB) Downloaded 152 times

http://archive.is/9qpZX

Spot the difference.

[Tigzy]

Anyway, lots of crying and me asking for "why". I got no real response asides "I am a bad person". I honestly think she did it as an act of self-destruction, like an alcoholic who drinks.

But it wasn't just self-destruction, was it John. Cos you got a fair whack of that destruction too, right?

This conversation you had - think hard and think clearly: how much time did she spend talking about her cut-price Ra's Al Ghul fuck toy, in comparison with how much time she spent talking about the relationship between you and her?

Mate, in the end it's your call, but it looks to me like this woman just isn't good for you. This is her second go at cheating on you; looks to me like you've got the male version of battered wife syndrome here. I'm sorry for the hard words, friend - but even if I and other Pitters here are wrong about her, it's better to be safe than sorry: stay calm, start logging stuff, keep in contact with your lawyer & definitely secure your credit card and bank account, and make sure no loans have been taken out in your name.

Hope for the best, but whatever you do - plan for the worst.

Oh, and ignore the fuck out of Robokitty.

[rayshul]

I can't really lulz at that. All this feminist wailing aside... I have to admit while pregnant with my kids, despite the insane cost of IVF etc, I was still absolutely terrified the entire time that I might have a female child. I liked the "Is it a boy or an abortion" line from the Dictator because I was like... yep, I get that. I don't know if it's some kind of weird homophobia but the idea of a female thing in me is super gross.

Anyway thank fuck for those Y chromosomes getting in there.

[Bourne Skeptic]

My bias should be clear from posts I've made in the past. I don't believe in the sanctity of monogamy. Therefore, I almost never consider 'infidelity' per se (unless an explicit verbal or written contract was made) to be a deal-breaker. There's no evidence of malicious manipulation, except as imagined or projected by people. To let something like this wreck a relationship of nearly a decade would be very unfortunate, if there is indeed any hope and mutual desire of keeping it together.

There's been a lot of advice to burn all bridges. That may be inevitable, but it helps no one to see that as the first option. I merely added a dissenting voice.

She has been unfaithful to me on a previous occasion which we got over.
As for having a contract and monogamy, well, I don't get how you can chat with someone you are unfaithful with the same day you are getting married and promising someone you're going to be faithful for the rest of your life. And I am not just talking about hello but like a lot of chat messages all day... that's next-level kind of fucked up in my book especially as she is very jealous.

Sorry to hear about the shit you're going through.
Cheaters tend to get jealous, they think their partners are doing the same thing they are!