ROBOKiTTY wrote:Why is it that so many people in the anti-SJW community nowadays conflate SJWs with 'liberals' and 'the left' (including, apparently, Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama, both centre-right politicians), on the apparent assumption that 'the left' needs to police its more extreme members, but extremism on the right seems to be given a pass?
So paleoconservatives got nothing to do with neoconservatives, both of which have nothing to do with the more reasonable wing of the alt-right, and none of them has definitely got anything to do with neonazis and white supremacists. Outside of eerily similar voting patterns, they are distinct enough that no one outside of SJWs demands that they 'police' their own extremists.
And then I turn around, and right-wingers again lump 'liberals' and 'the left' into a pile with fascists, Nazis because hurr durr National Socialists, Trotskyists, Leninist, Stalinists, Maoists, North Korea, and SJWs. And when leftists defend themselves, saying they hold none of the regressive values, right-wingers point to SJWs and claim it's the entire left's fault that SJWs are the face of the left. And the anti-SJW community seems more than happy to lap it up, and so the definition of 'the regressive left' has crept from "a minority of the left in American terms holding regressive values" to "anything to the left of Milton Friedman, which is regressive in its entirety".
Not only does this credit the SJWs with more power than they actually have, it empowers the kind of regressive values that should be stamped out, e.g. anti-intellectualism (defund all universities cuz they're just SJW strongholds, amirite?), science denialism ('we have had enough of experts'), etc.
That's the nature of a cultural war: there are assumptions, there are barricades and there are casualties.
In the US "leftist" has been associated with any form of authoritarianism which wasn't overly friendly to religion. Libertarianism is perceived to be a "truly American" value, and organized churches are perceived to be supportive or at least thoroughly compatible of libertarianism (they aren't, at least not necessarily, as all theocracies show).
The settlers which shaped the British colonies in North America were Puritans, very big on the idea that divine grace is arbitrary and comes in the form of personal success (Weber described this very well in his "The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism"). The US were created by colonial rebels who wished to no longer pay taxes to a central authority and wanted to be masters of their own private real estates. The expansion to the West who tied with the idea of the rugged, independent individual who can make a fortune for themselves through hard work and a bit luck (which isn't really luck, but divine intervention). The idea of regulating the market is seen as an unjust limitation to personal hard work and to God's work (luck).
The American left has itself religious origins: to simplify things a lot it's ultimately based on the Abolitionist movement, on people like Horace Greeley or John Brown, who were motivated by the same Puritan streak and found slavery morally repellent because they saw the US as the "shining city upon the hill", as the refuge for those persecuted by evil Babylon (which they identified in the Southern slave-owning upper class). Other forms of movements in the left, like Gus Hall and his Socialist Party or labor unions, were introduced and popular among first generation immigrants (Germans and Mittel-european for the Socialists, Irish and Italians for the labor movement) and while they were influential for a while they never became part of the American "narrative" on the left.
The bottom line is that American politics are very religious and idealist to their core, both on the right and the left. Americans are emotionally invested in politics to a much larger degree than Europeans or Chinese people, and they all see politics not as a mean to an end but as the end itself. Compromises are shunned as heresy, and nuance is seen as betrayal. To an extent this is true in every country, but in the US this means that both the left and the right see themselves as saintly liberators from evil oppression.
Both George Wallace and Martin Luther King used religious terms and religious imagery in their speeches. For evil or good religion and religious fervor and the discourse of a liberation from oppression is at core of both the American left and the American right.
This, of course, isn't true for actual policies, which are based on compromises and on different competing interests, but it's wildly believed both in the left and in the right. It breeds resentment towards the "system" and the "man", conspiracy theory as detailed and as pervasive as medieval demonologies, and a millenarist approach to politics, where things are described in terms of triumphs of Good or evil catastrophes.
So in the American left mythology everything is racist and the Evil White Men are the cause of every problem, while in the American right mythology the Evil Godless Commies are to blame. Both are, to a certain extent, boogeymen.
I think that in these days talking about "left" and "right" as coherent wholes in abstract terms is highly misleading in American politics.
Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton are corporate/lobbyist establishment politicians, who try to accommodate society between the interests of various corporations and lobbies. This wouldn't necessarily a bad thing if citizens organized themselves in efficient lobbies-interest groups, but the deep distrust for institutions like unions and local groups of interests inhibits the participation of many to the process, so their vote counts far less, and many even don't go to vote (a much higher percentage in the US than in other liberal democracies). Also the corporation/lobby establishment is left with far too few rules, and special interests which don't align with the broad interests of the US as a whole are easily able to game the system and get many advantages in terms of tax cuts/bailouts.
Clinton, and to a far less extent Obama, have used the quasi-religious cult of the SJWs for their interests, to paint any critic as prejudiced and evil and to cater to minority lobbies, confident that their loyal bases who are increasingly underrepresented would stay loyal to avoid the rise of a candidate perceived as a danger.
Trump and Sanders, on the other hand, are by and large "grassroot" politicians, who promise to get rid of or to reduce the power of the corporate/lobby system, and are beloved by those who aren't organized in lobbies. Both are much less keen on a free market with crony capitalism than Obama and Clinton, or even than George W. Bush, or at least they claim to be. They're not so incredibly different: they seek the support of the disorganized and disenfranchised masses of blue collar workers, only Trump is also singing the praise of the American right-wing mythology of the Rugged Individualism while Sanders is a more European-style Social Democrat.
Sanders is, to a larger extent, an anti-SJW on the "left". He's not too overly concerned with identity politics, he's not overly friendly with Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States (as the foreign policy-minded SJWs tend to be to a fault), he's not very pro-censorship. There's a reason why the SJW rejected him and his supporters as "Bernie Bros", a.k.a. secret white supremacist and sexist shitlords ( even Sanders himself has been called a white supremacist :lol: ).
I think that if he and his side took control of the Democratic Party the power of the SJW/Regressive would be greatly reduced. That's why SJWs are doubling down on blaming sexism and racism: they don't hope to win the election but they think that they can avoid being put in a corner by a newly Sanders-friendly DNC and Dem Party in general.
So I think that there's a civil war within the Democratic Party right now, and many are willing to more or less cut off the most extreme and unproductive branches of the SJ/Regressive, but those branches are fighting back. Hopefully they'll alienate themselves more and more.
On the other side of the aisle paloeconservatives and neoconservatives really don't have very much in common these days beside paying lip service to the American right-wing mythos and voting for whoever has a "R" next to their name. Paleos are more isolationists, pro-manufacturing and pro-regulated borders than the neocons, who are pro-intervention, pro-finance and pro-open borders, at least for the multinational corporations.
The alt-right is a highly flexible and mutable label, which is used as a boogeyman by SJWs just like real alt-righters often use SJWs as a boogeyman. Within the "alt-right" you can find anyone who's voted Republican but isn't a pro-corporation neo cons: libertarians, an-caps, paleo-caps, paleo-soc (who are in favor of unions of citizens), religious dominionists who don't like the neocons, religious isolationists who want their chance to build small theodemocracies, neoreactionaries (many of which are fans of Mencius Moldbug) and even Sargon-style "classical liberals" (i.e. non-SJW centrist or slightly "center-left" people, mostly left libertarians who dislike postmodernism). And of course you have the white supremacists and the nazis, who are what they are.
I think that this shows that traditional labels are obsolete, and that today's politics are less about traditional class conflicts and more about establishment vs. grassroot, manufacturing vs. fiance and trade, small business vs. big business, libertarian vs. "concerned groups", anti vs. pro lobbies and anti vs. pro censorship.
The situation is fluid and while a lot of anti-intellectualist and science deniers have appeared in the anti-SJW/alt-right there are plenty of them, only in different areas of science, in many "leftist" movements.
President Trump is probably better than Clinton in foreign policy in the Middle East (if only because his plan is to gut the Islamic State then leave) but he's admittedly disastrous from a climate change/science investments perspective.