Nerds. Nerds EVERYWHERE...

[Skep tickle]

I wasn't referring to that list.
I was referring to an earlier post by McEwan right at the beginning of Elevatorgate in which she mentioned that she was unhappy with some things Myers had posted in the past and gave a few examples - they were the typical pre-elevatorgate mildly sexist stuff that Myers often posted in the days before he became a lifelong feminist. But some of them were pretty obscure - which made it obvious to me that McEwan has been keeping a close eye on Myers for a while and had been collecting 'evidence'.

It was amusing to see PZ try to paint himself as McEwan's best buddy, and fail. (Whenever along the way that was; not having a Strawkensian mind, I lose track.)

She hasn't used this evidence yet but it's inevitable that day will eventually come.

Promise? ;)

Seriously, just imagine what would happen if they all "got" to spend time together in a confined space without any external enemies/threats on which to focus.

[AndrewV69]

... I take a couple of days off and now I an SEVEN pages behind!!!

In other news ... I have been watching Fargo Season One. That guy who plays Lester Nygaard ... OMFG! Fucking LOL.

[Phil_Giordana_FCD]

In this case she is probably trying to target DJ Grothe through his children - he is applying to adopt at the moment and Svan is desperately attempting a public smear in order to try to get some dirt to stick to his name when the agency does a background check.
Just when you think Svan can't get any worse she manages to surprise us yet again with her boundless mendacity.

Careful there. Zvan is as vindictive as can be, but surely even she can't swoop so low?

[Clarence]

AVfM: proving not only feminists are blind to their prejudices.

Good lord guys, back off, you played it out. A tag called #WomenAgainstFeminism isn't really going to work well as a sausagefest.

I was a little disappointed to see old razorbladekandy jumping all over that one. I thought he was one of those "we don't need to hide behind women when we speak our MRA opinions, or elevate them into positions of authority they haven't earned" MRAs.

The whole #WomenAgainstFeminism bit on Twitter failed pretty hard. It could have been okay if AVfM and MRAs hadn't leaped all over it. IIRC, the original purpose of talking about women against feminism was for women who weren't involved in any gender politics to talk about why they're not feminists and don't like feminism? That would have been a more interesting discussion than AVfM MRA spam.

My main problem with AVfM is probably the reuse of the feminist victim narrative for their own purposes. The answer to 3rd-wave feminism is not, in my opinion, "third wave menism." I don't need to see a bunch of crying men holding up signs saying "I need men's rights because" or creating "male safe spaces" where nobody can question official male rights party lines. AVfM, Manhood Academy, RooshVForums are the male versions of Jezebel, Salon, Skepchick and Atheism+.

The victim identity and victim conspiracy narrative is pure poison.

Well then, since men don't have any real problems and all MRA's are the male equivalent of Suey Park (because at this point, most of the important or long-time MRA's are aligned with AVFM in one way or the other so I assume you are talking about more than Mr. Elam and Dean Esmay) and complaining about absolutely nothing at all, why don't they just shut up then?

Of course I'm not sure how one is supposed to petition for redress of grievances if one doesn't have legitimate grievances such that one might be rightly considered to be victimized in one way or another, even if only by neglect and not by design or malice.

I suppose A Voice for Men should stop being such pussified wimps and whining about unimportant shit like child custody, lack of shelters for male victims and such to the powers that be and instead should start an insurrection.

Oh, and social media? Who needs that? Not Real Men that's for sure.

You are so right. I KNEW A Voice for Men was anti- "iron pill" when they let those bitches in to serve as honeybadgers.

[Opyt]

Andrew:
Quit your bitching. I went through 60 pages after stopping for a week.

Most of the content is Hamas/Israel. You didn't miss much. Except the laughing jet. That's easily the most important part.

[fuzzy]

Hey has anyone seen this before on JREF? To my knowledge I've never missed typed my login. Been like this for 2 days. I've sent a "contact us" - password problem email.

This is urgent because there is something wrong on the board I need to correct, :)

http://i.imgur.com/CBV6lMi.jpg

I was given to understand the forums started having issues recently when Sharon Hill was updating the entire JREF site.
Not sure of the current status.

I believe Sharon Hill is a nontechnical person coordinating a factfinding mission to assess what needs to be done to improve JERF forum performance in the near future. I'm pretty certain nothing in the forum is currently being dinked around with that could be causing Brive's problem.

Brive, I'm pretty sure if you just click where it says "Forgotten your password? Click here" it will lead you through a quick efficient password reset dialogue. Sometimes it's best to attribute such things as your eerily changed password to e.g. cosmic rays and march on.

Update: The same thing is happening to me, Brive. I logged out to check, and cannot log back in to the JERF. I have an email addy that might get a better response than that contact form, I'll see what I can do.

[Clarence]

Now IF one was to say that AVFM and similar should only be complaining about the more legitimate MRA and civil libertarian issues and only using Twitter and such for debunking and the occasional pithy one liner, I'll agree.

But whining they are not sensitive enough (when Paul Elam makes a satirical response to a downright hateful Jezebel article) and then that they are too sensitive (when they start mimicking the sadly often-successful victim strategies on social media) doesn't strike me as much of an argument.

It seems some people here hold them to conflicting standards.

[Dick Strawkins]

I assume you have all seen PZ latest post on his harassment incident?

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... some-more/

Those of you who know the story of Andrea Dworkins and the Paris Ritz hotel, http://www.salon.com/2000/09/20/dworkin/ , will realize the inherent problem with Myers current predicament.

In the case of Dworkin, her tale of a drugged gang rape late in her life was consistent with someone having a mental breakdown (there was no evidence to support her claim and she didn't try to inform the police - something that you might think is a good idea if you think the hotel employees were raping random women in their hotel.)
Those closest to her - including her husband and her gynacologist didn't believe her.
But many feminists did.
Those who did were those closest to her own radical feminist thinking - that one must always 'believe the victim'.
Expressing doubt about a claim of rape is seen by these individuals as being heartless and disloyal to the cause of helping oppressed women.
Many women throughout history have been doubted when they have justifiably claimed rape. The radfem answer to this is to not doubt any claim - hence we have a situation where once a claim of rape is made there will be many who are simply incapable of thinking that it could be false.

Myers is at the border of this scenario at present.
He admits an incident involving an accusation of rape.
But, of course, this is simply one side of the story.
Almost anyone accused of rape, innocent or not, will deny it and claim it was a false accusation.
We only have Myers word for it that the accusation (or threat of an accusation) was false.

If the other side spoke up - and repeated the false claim - Myers erstwhile allies would be forced to act according to their beliefs.
And since his current allies are a mix of third wave feminists and second wave radfems there are bound to be some in the Dworkin camp, for whom any accusation of rape (whether false or not) MUST be believed.

But the big danger is of his own making.
Myers own irresponsible action in publishing second hand anonymous and unevidenced claims of rape opens the possibility that the same thing will happen to him.

All it will take is for someone to make a fake anonymous comment online that they were the victim in this case and to falsely detail what they claim Myers did.
Once that happens those who 'believe the victim' must automatically follow the inevitable logic of their mantra - and conclude that PZ Myers is a rapist.

The way that Myers has written of the incident is also problematic from a legal procedural standpoint. I get the impression that there was little investigation of the incident and that his Dean simply accepted his word over that of his student. Myers tries to paint this as being a problem of privilege that he opposes but it's hard to take this seriously when we know that he has such a personal interest in the outcome of the case.
In such a case where there are competing interests (the career of the accused, the education and future job prospects of the accussee) the college Dean is incapable of acting as a neutral unbiased figure.
No college wants to be seen to have hired a rapist.
From the college's perspective the ideal conclusion to such a case is the student withdrawing the accusation and therefore the temptation might be to force the student to do this unwillingly.
In which case it should be automatic that such an accusation should be immediately passed on to an uninvolved party - namely the police authorities.
Is there any record of the police being involved in this case?

And if not, WHY NOT?

[Skep tickle]

LAWAAG's 2nd meeting is August 5th at 7pm.

It is Amy Davis Roth's group and she can decide what she wants to do with it. I suspect Roth was thinking she could create an inclusive women's group that shared her interests (and, I think in my cynical moments, might help promote her art & art show) but has run into some bumps.

I just wonder whether Zvan is being Roth's heavy at Roth's request or of her own volition, as Zvan apparently tries to rescue Roth by presenting the group's purpose and its acceptable attendees differently than Roth did at the LAWAAG website & on Skepchick.

According to various pages at http://lawaag.com/ , presumably written by Roth, one or more of these descriptions explain who is welcome at LAWAAG 2nd Tuesday meetings & what the (her) view is toward people who wish to attend; the line below in red is red on the LAWAAG events page here and was added recently.

The group "is for people who primarily identify as women who live a secular lifestyle or are in the process of leaving religion" and "focuses on building community and friendship among freethinking women and organizes activist and community outreach art projects." It holds a monthly get-together which is variably described at the site as:

• a free meetup to which membership is not required
• a monthly meetup that welcomes new members
• a friendly meetup on the 2nd Tuesday of every month
• a private group meetup on Tuesday August 5th at 7pm

Roth's post from August 4 at http://skepchick.org/2014/08/lawaag-meeting-tuesday/ also suggests that anyone who identifies as a woman & is interested can attend (bolding added by me):

Our next meeting which is tomorrow is a LAWAAG meeting just for those who identify as women so we can plan the art show and have some relaxing social time to chat and hang out. There is more detailed info on our website like the location of our meeting and our code of conduct which applies to all our events, if anyone is interested. I look forward to seeing some bright and shiny faces tomorrow. If you are near Los Angeles, consider joining me tomorrow!

Zvan, in her "Alcoholism" post, presents a somewhat different take on the purpose and desired membership of the group than does the LAWAAG site. (All emphasis below was added by me.)

Zvan describes the group as:

...Los Angeles Women’s Atheist and Agnostic Group (LAWAAG), a group started by Surly Amy as a place for women free of the harassment that’s been heaped on women who dared to point out sexism in the local scene.

That's more specific to harassment in person in LA than LAWAAG's phrasing:

LAWAAG was formed partially in response to overt harassment and sexism experienced by some women in our communities.

Zvan suggests that the August 5 meeting is no longer a meetup open to all who identify as women, and reveals the topic of Roth's, oh sorry I mean LAWAAG's, art show in September at CFI-LA:

...tomorrow’s meeting, the planning meeting for the [art] installation on harassment, ...

Zvan tells us that Roth is barring, or attempting to bar, a couple of women Zvan & Roth don't like from the group:

Amy’s “disordered” behavior? Removing the RSVPs of some local women from one of the group’s Facebook event pages and barring them from participating in the group’s in-person planning meetings, the few closed meetings LAWAAG has. ...

(Zvan's post goes into all the evil things these women have done.)

One might imagine that the gender-traitor women's RSVPs being removed would be tied back to LAWAAG's code of conduct (modeled on WIScon, near & dear to Zvan's heart). But I find no mention that that's the case.

Zvan slips a bit, IMO, in suggesting that a case could be made for the excluded women to attend if they only shared something with LAWAAG's intended clientele (or purpose) other than gender...if only, it seems, they met criteria to be part of "feminism".

Zvan essentially states there are qualifications for participation in LAWAAG that the LAWAAG site doesn't give:

... Feminism is a political and social movement (or set of movements), not a social club. If you want to demonstrate that Amy’s behavior is disordered, you need to make a case why these women should be welcome in this group that relies on something beyond their gender identity.

Finally: I found it amusing to note that there were 4 comments made w/in a 30 minute window, then no other comments for nearly 4 hours now.

Those 4 posts are by: PZ Myers, Flewellyn, Zvan, and Roth.

[Dick Strawkins]

In this case she is probably trying to target DJ Grothe through his children - he is applying to adopt at the moment and Svan is desperately attempting a public smear in order to try to get some dirt to stick to his name when the agency does a background check.
Just when you think Svan can't get any worse she manages to surprise us yet again with her boundless mendacity.

Careful there. Zvan is as vindictive as can be, but surely even she can't swoop so low?

I can't of course claim to be certain of Svan's motivations.
What I can say, however, is that it's consistent with the actions of her allies in trying to smear DJ Grothe.
Elyse Anders was the first to mention the adoption question in a clearly threatening post on skepchicks last year.
(Publish our survey research or else!)

http://skepchick.org/2013/09/dj-grothe- ... nst-wtinc/

Svan is clearly trying to smear DJ Grothe.
These smears are not going to work within the atheist/skeptical community because they are so ridiculous and contrary to the idea that Grothe would be able to attain any working relationships in the movement, never mind be a talented administrator.
So there must be another reason outside skepticism for making such claims.
I think personal vindictiveness on Svan's part is a perfectly reasonable explanation and is entirely consistent with an attempt to disrupt his adoption process.
Of course I cannot prove this was the primary motivation but, knowing of her behavior over the past few years, is there reason to think that Svan wouldn't stoop that low?

[rayshul]

Any idea who the women not in the in crowd are? Are they like... heretics like us? Or just not part of the in group?

[Søren Lilholt]

Option 3

http://i.imgur.com/rgnwCho.jpg

Mindless buffoon. He has literally forgotten how to think.

In what POSSIBLE way would a men's rights activist look at that accusation and think it damaging to PZ? This is almost the exact opposite of reality: this is the type of anecdote MRA's lap up, because it demonstrates how (in their perception) the odds are stacked against men, allowing women to cry rape to get their own way.

PZ, you are a stupid, cretinous, braindead blob of cunt.

[Biohazard]

From Heina Dadabhoy's Facebook:

U GAIZ HAVE NO IDEA WHAT IS IN STORE FOR MY EFF-TEE-BEE DEBUT TOMORROW.

So I'll tell you.

A troll-baiting title accompanied by a picture that made a relative of mine get mad at me plus I unblocked some trolls on Twitter so as to get my new comment policy rolling.

*rubs hands together*

The resultant increase in troll attacks will then no doubt be used as evidence of her oppression. :doh:

[Dick Strawkins]

Any idea who the women not in the in crowd are? Are they like... heretics like us? Or just not part of the in group?

http://web.archive.org/web/201408050829 ... disorders/

From Svan's post, the women are:

Wendy Hughes
Heather Henderson
Susan Gerbic
and she also insinuates that Paula Lauterbach might be a gender traitor too.

From what I understand they are all JREF TAM types rather than pitters, and have connections with those evil monsters who did things like making joke surlyramics or took photos of Harriet Hall's T-shirt!

Oh the humanity!
http://www.survivinggrady.com/wp-conten ... burg1B.jpg

[Dick Strawkins]

LAWAAG's 2nd meeting is August 5th at 7pm.

It is Amy Davis Roth's group and she can decide what she wants to do with it. I suspect Roth was thinking she could create an inclusive women's group that shared her interests (and, I think in my cynical moments, might help promote her art & art show) but has run into some bumps.
snip...

Just one point of order.

From Svan's post:
"Feminism is a political and social movement (or set of movements), not a social club. If you want to demonstrate that Amy’s behavior is disordered, you need to make a case why these women should be welcome in this group that relies on something beyond their gender identity."

To me that sounds like an admission that Surly's LAWAAG group is a political group that is only open to those that agree with it's political viewpoint.
I wonder how this sits with the CFI.
Are they allowed to host partisan political groups in their building?
I have no idea how they are set up - I don't even know if they have charitable status, but if they did would this not be in direct violation of the terms in the same way a church is not allowed to show political partisanship?

I guess they could claim that they will host those of opposite political views as well but does anyone seriously think that they would host AVFM LA meetups at their LA headquarters?

[rayshul]

Any idea who the women not in the in crowd are? Are they like... heretics like us? Or just not part of the in group?

http://web.archive.org/web/201408050829 ... disorders/

From Svan's post, the women are:

Wendy Hughes
Heather Henderson
Susan Gerbic
and she also insinuates that Paula Lauterbach might be a gender traitor too.

Burn 'em.

Have I mentioned that the thing I love most about feminism is how it likes excluding women?

[rayshul]

Can we have an art group for ladies?

ALL LADIES WELCOME.

[Phil_Giordana_FCD]

We only have Myers word for it that the accusation (or threat of an accusation) was false.

We also only have Myers' claim that the incident DID happen at all and is not, say, some made up event to try and make a rhetorical point (which would be very dishonest).

[Badger3k]

From Heina Dadabhoy's Facebook:

U GAIZ HAVE NO IDEA WHAT IS IN STORE FOR MY EFF-TEE-BEE DEBUT TOMORROW.

So I'll tell you.

A troll-baiting title accompanied by a picture that made a relative of mine get mad at me plus I unblocked some trolls on Twitter so as to get my new comment policy rolling.

*rubs hands together*

The resultant increase in troll attacks will then no doubt be used as evidence of her oppression. :doh:

Why is she calling everyone gay? Does she write primarily for homosexuals, or is this directed at DJ as well? Is he the Witch of the Week again?

I assume also that she is one of the new drama bloggers on the FTSkepchick Network?

[Badger3k]

We only have Myers word for it that the accusation (or threat of an accusation) was false.

We also only have Myers' claim that the incident DID happen at all and is not, say, some made up event to try and make a rhetorical point (which would be very dishonest).

He's pulling an Ogvorbis? :o

[DownThunder]

I think its safe to say that Myer's and Jason Thibeault's anecdote about being the victim of a false rape/sexual assault allegation has backfired on them. Which leads me to ask what was the original context for bringing up the anecdotes in the first place? I don't think that feminist males would bring up personal experiences as a way to lend credence to the claim that false allegations pose a substantial problem. Rather I suspect they were trying to assert their authority on the matter, that if they aren't concerned, neither should you be.

However, that brings us to his current position. He surely understands the feminist reasoning that he should be considered to be a likely rapist. Hell, if filling someone's wine glass is evidence that someone is a rapist, Myers should certainly be lumped into the same category.

He is just playing the game of maintaining his position in his feminist group. He can't dismantle the feminist woo and their (negligible) standards of evidence, nor can he apply those standards to himself. He doesn't have much of a choice, who else would want him now? Apart from those alien believers.....

[Liesmith]

I don't know whether it's cognitive dissonance or outright dishonesty, butPZ's latest post regarding his false rape accusation manages to so adroitly miss the point that I am literally laughing with rage and admiration. I would normally quietly lurk and enjoy the lulz, but he titled it "Please, taunt me some more", and I don't want to be rude by ignoring him. I was going to post it at FTB, but my giveafuck ran out midway through registering.

I know other folks here have already talked about this, but no one reads my nonsense anyway, and I need a break from the antisemitic denouncement of Hamas, so fukke it.

Here's the photo to which he's responding:
http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... ssment.jpg

First off, "A female student came". Keep bragging, bro.

Anyway he starts off by confirming that this quote is true:

The incident actually happened, and those are my words. I have no problem with that. However, it’s not making a point in their favor.

Thanks, that's a timesaver. Now, the fuckwittery begins:

That the incident occurred does not refute anything I’ve ever said; false rape accusations do occur. But notice the last point; they’re relatively rare.

The first step is admitting you have a problem; in this case, the problem is false rape accusations...but how rare is "relatively" rare? I'm sure that the use of false IDs to purchase alcohol in America is very rare, relatively to the use of legitimate IDs for the same. That doesn't mean a piece of cardboard with a crudely-drawn crayon portrait, wielded by a teenager trying to buy Natty Ice, should be treated as automatically valid because statistics.

In over 30 years of teaching, this was the only time a woman attempted to extort me. Once. In 30 years. At the same time, every year I have heard of rapes and/or attempted rapes on my campuses. Final point stands confirmed.

And how many times were you carjacked? Might as well have your car's locks removed. Also, from the point of view of a person who only "heard of" these rapes, how are actual rapes distinguishable from false accusations?

One thing not mentioned in the story: when I went to immediately report this incident, I was not questioned. No one asked me if I’d led her on; no one thought I was making up a story to hurt a young woman; I was taken seriously and the complaint was addressed seriously. In part it was because I acted promptly and got witnesses, but let’s have no illusions — as a man, my word counts for more.

Gender is arguably the least of the differences between you and the student. The biggest differences are age, education, and the fact that you're a member of the faculty. For instance, if you were a old male janitor, young male professor, or a student of any age, they'd have likely been less inclined to believe you. The other mitigating factor is who reports first; you admitted that the accusation alone would be enough to "destroy your career" if she was allowed to speak first, "even though she was lying".

Given the career-wrecking implications of a false-accusation grenade, why on Earth do you think you would hear about most false accusations from those who have been threatened by them? Let's look at the possibilities for such intentionally false claims:

1) A person is threatened with a false accusation. They acquiesce. No accusation is actually made.
2) A person is threatened with a false accusation. They don't acquiesce. The accusation is prevented (as in PZ's case).
3) A person is threatened with a false accusation. They don't acquiesce. The accusation is made, and is treated as factual.
4) A person is threatened with a false accusation. They don't acquiesce. The accusation is made, but proven to be false under scrutiny.

In situations 1, 2, and 3, there is no documented evidence of a false claim which would show up in any statistics whatsoever. In case #2, it's very unlikely that most people would openly share that experience out of the blue, given the potential effect on employment. Situation #4 is the only one that would effect statistics, and it's the situation that PZ says we should discount out of hand.

Perhaps the most important lesson, that my smirking taunters ought to learn, is that I did not come away from this unpleasant occasion with the idea that all women are conniving “bitches”. I was able to recognize that this was an unusual circumstance with a desperate young woman who was not plotting against me, but on the spur of the moment tried an unlikely ploy to save her grade.

So, if she had spent more than a few minutes plotting, and was successful in extorting you, would that make all women "conniving bitches" in your eyes? Conversely, if a woman is threatened with sexual assault, should she come away from that unpleasant occasion with the idea that all men are aggressive "dudebros"? Please answer in the form of a limerick.

Maybe he's not so much dodging the point as he is drunkenly stumbling around, miraculously avoiding rational thought like some kind of rhetorical Mr Magoo.

[DownThunder]

Any idea who the women not in the in crowd are? Are they like... heretics like us? Or just not part of the in group?

http://web.archive.org/web/201408050829 ... disorders/

From Svan's post, the women are:

Wendy Hughes
Heather Henderson
Susan Gerbic
and she also insinuates that Paula Lauterbach might be a gender traitor too.

Burn 'em.

Have I mentioned that the thing I love most about feminism is how it likes excluding women?

That's easy. If feminists have excluded someone, then they can't be a woman. If I can have a girlcock, you now have a mangina.

[DownThunder]

Can we have an art group for ladies?

ALL LADIES WELCOME.

Depends if my girlcock is welcome. Its all about the girlcock.

[Phil_Giordana_FCD]

Here's the photo to which he's responding:
http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... ssment.jpg

You know, reading this account again, I'm wondering: how uncomfortable could that female grad student have felt for being asked to sit alone in a room with someone she (probably) didn't know just so Myers could run to The Court and defend himself.

Feminist my ass!

[Brive1987]

Hey has anyone seen this before on JREF? To my knowledge I've never missed typed my login. Been like this for 2 days. I've sent a "contact us" - password problem email.

This is urgent because there is something wrong on the board I need to correct, :)

http://i.imgur.com/CBV6lMi.jpg

I was given to understand the forums started having issues recently when Sharon Hill was updating the entire JREF site.
Not sure of the current status.

I believe Sharon Hill is a nontechnical person coordinating a factfinding mission to assess what needs to be done to improve JERF forum performance in the near future. I'm pretty certain nothing in the forum is currently being dinked around with that could be causing Brive's problem.

Brive, I'm pretty sure if you just click where it says "Forgotten your password? Click here" it will lead you through a quick efficient password reset dialogue. Sometimes it's best to attribute such things as your eerily changed password to e.g. cosmic rays and march on.

Thanks for the feedback. I did try and change my password, got the email and now instead of "secret" I have to type in numbers .... to get the same message. :(

I know at least one other commentator has the same issue.

[Richard Dworkins]

So when the rest of us in the world throw a party/dance in the streets, after the orphans of Gaza grow into men of vengeance, and turn thousands of your kids into broken headless ragdolls, as poetic justice for your nations financing of their nightmare. what then?

I dunno, what about when the orphans of double-tap drone strikes grow up?

AW SNAP, SON

Oh wait, you're saying the orphans of Gaza are going to grow up and get revenge, but then your main complaint this whole time has been that Israel is killing kids in Gaza. Sounds like that problem is going to sort itself out!

Or maybe their ghosts will get revenge? The Ghosts of Gaza. Or maybe GazaGheist is better. Oooooh scary.

Well done. All week I've been hearing the repetition point of "there's no justification for killing Children". You've implied a very dark but very real justification for the actions of Likud. A final solution for the Palestinian Problem perhaps, which would give Israel some more "living room".

[Brive1987]

Ah. Just saw your follow up. I'll follow in your wake. Let me know how you get on (and put in a good word for me if you can pls)

[Tribble]

It will look something like this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbivore_men

^What I was thinking of when I posted that.

It seems inevitable to me. Japanese society is very different, but I could foresee a similar outcome arising from different motivating factors. We're already seeing many more men naturally gravitating away from marriage and kids (and some women as well, although time and biological clocks will tell) quite apart from any political "male rights" or "feminism" discussion.

Sometime in the last week I read that only 29% of young men (either 'western' or American, forgot which) value marriage. Which, for men, is at an all-time low.

[didymos]

Well, regardless of the truth of that, you're definitely not going to be getting any new ones like that.

[Liesmith]

Well, regardless of the truth of that, you're definitely not going to be getting any new ones like that.

All white males in tech should boycott providing any support to her or her organization, as a show of support for her beliefs. Progress!

[didymos]

Make sense of this:

[didymos]

We may be witnessing the birth of "Selfie Studies":

http://thenewinquiry.com/essays/selfie-correction/

[DeepInsideYourMind]

Well, regardless of the truth of that, you're definitely not going to be getting any new ones like that.

That will just make them kiss her feet even more... you totally dont get the white knight mentality ... they are subs, the more they are abused, the more they enjoy it

[Hunt]

PZ appears to have the same attitude towards basic house maintenance as he has to verification of facts.

Optional extra.

http://i.imgur.com/b5q397r.jpg

The Slymedeck?

By the looks of that thing I think it's beyond power washing and Thompson's WaterSeal. I recommend demo and start over. I'll do it for a single Surly-Ramic. Plus ten thousand dollars.

[SoylentAtheist]

Sometime in the last week I read that only 29% of young men (either 'western' or American, forgot which) value marriage. Which, for men, is at an all-time low.

Here is your study source:
http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2012/04/ ... prc-number

[Richard Dworkins]

It will look something like this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbivore_men

^What I was thinking of when I posted that.

It seems inevitable to me. Japanese society is very different, but I could foresee a similar outcome arising from different motivating factors. We're already seeing many more men naturally gravitating away from marriage and kids (and some women as well, although time and biological clocks will tell) quite apart from any political "male rights" or "feminism" discussion.

Sometime in the last week I read that only 29% of young men (either 'western' or American, forgot which) value marriage. Which, for men, is at an all-time low.

I'm surprised that figure is so low. Most of my friends kids are in their late 20's early thirties now and I can think of only one who is married, plenty of them are single women with children, so perhaps it's not just young men who don't value marriage.

[Scented Nectar]

From Heina Dadabhoy's Facebook:

U GAIZ HAVE NO IDEA WHAT IS IN STORE FOR MY EFF-TEE-BEE DEBUT TOMORROW.

So I'll tell you.

A troll-baiting title accompanied by a picture that made a relative of mine get mad at me plus I unblocked some trolls on Twitter so as to get my new comment policy rolling.

*rubs hands together*

The resultant increase in troll attacks will then no doubt be used as evidence of her oppression. :doh:

She sounds far too needy of negative attention. I think everyone should actively ignore her. She's drooling in anticipation of a huge dose of indulged-in victimhood.

[windy]

In this case she is probably trying to target DJ Grothe through his children - he is applying to adopt at the moment and Svan is desperately attempting a public smear in order to try to get some dirt to stick to his name when the agency does a background check.
Just when you think Svan can't get any worse she manages to surprise us yet again with her boundless mendacity.

Careful there. Zvan is as vindictive as can be, but surely even she can't swoop so low?

Thanks for that mental image...

http://thebrotherhoodofevilgeeks.files. ... arpy-1.jpg

[Phil_Giordana_FCD]

Typo. I meant "stoop". but have you ever noticed how "w" and "t" are close to one another?

[Gumby]

She sounds far too needy of negative attention. I think everyone should actively ignore her. She's drooling in anticipation of a huge dose of indulged-in victimhood.

I think it would be hilarious if her debut was met with deafening silence. Why give her what she wants?

[Richard Dworkins]

From Heina Dadabhoy's Facebook:

U GAIZ HAVE NO IDEA WHAT IS IN STORE FOR MY EFF-TEE-BEE DEBUT TOMORROW.

So I'll tell you.

A troll-baiting title accompanied by a picture that made a relative of mine get mad at me plus I unblocked some trolls on Twitter so as to get my new comment policy rolling.

*rubs hands together*

The resultant increase in troll attacks will then no doubt be used as evidence of her oppression. :doh:

She sounds far too needy of negative attention. I think everyone should actively ignore her. She's drooling in anticipation of a huge dose of indulged-in victimhood.

I agree, she's simply trolling and one should not feed trolls.

[Richard Dworkins]

From Heina Dadabhoy's Facebook:

U GAIZ HAVE NO IDEA WHAT IS IN STORE FOR MY EFF-TEE-BEE DEBUT TOMORROW.

So I'll tell you.

A troll-baiting title accompanied by a picture that made a relative of mine get mad at me plus I unblocked some trolls on Twitter so as to get my new comment policy rolling.

*rubs hands together*

The resultant increase in troll attacks will then no doubt be used as evidence of her oppression. :doh:

She sounds far too needy of negative attention. I think everyone should actively ignore her. She's drooling in anticipation of a huge dose of indulged-in victimhood.

I agree, she's simply trolling and one should not feed trolls.

[TedDahlberg]

She sounds far too needy of negative attention. I think everyone should actively ignore her. She's drooling in anticipation of a huge dose of indulged-in victimhood.

I agree, she's simply trolling and one should not feed trolls.

http://i.imgur.com/9dz1p1S.jpg

[Kirbmarc]

Well, regardless of the truth of that, you're definitely not going to be getting any new ones like that.

Sub Mor, over at the Atheism Plus forum, is convinced that if you tell people that they're worthless shits they'll be "more likely to understand that what they're doing is wrong" thanks to a "stern rebuke".

Two possibilities illustrate this point.
A: "blah blah blah slur blah blah"
B: "Hey, fuck you, I can't believe you'd say that!"
A: "Fuck me? Fuck you! Piss off."

A: "blah blah blah slur blah blah"
B: "Hey, fuck you, I can't believe you'd say that!"
A: "Whoa, I said something that bad?"

When I tried to tell him that the second situation is very unlikely to happen, and it might be more effective to be more polite, ischemgeek replied:

Not all communication is for the purpose of convincing others, Orenda. Sometimes it's for the purpose of verbal self-defense.

So if you're "oppressed", you can say whatever you want and you are always right, unless there's someone who's more oppressed than you are.

The next step is to physically attack the "privileged ones" when they step out of line, since according to Atheism Plus words are worse than physical assault.

[Phil_Giordana_FCD]

ischemgeek is not oppressed. neither is Benson, or Zvan, or whoever delves in those internet arguments. If you are well enough to have an internet connection, you are not oppressed!

[Ericb]

In this case she is probably trying to target DJ Grothe through his children - he is applying to adopt at the moment and Svan is desperately attempting a public smear in order to try to get some dirt to stick to his name when the agency does a background check.
Just when you think Svan can't get any worse she manages to surprise us yet again with her boundless mendacity.

Careful there. Zvan is as vindictive as can be, but surely even she can't swoop so low?

Thanks for that mental image...

http://thebrotherhoodofevilgeeks.files. ... arpy-1.jpg

Is Svan The Red Gillautine of FTB?

[imghttp://www.mariannebrentzel.de/bilder/benjamin-cover.jpg][/img]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilde_Benjamin

[Cunt of Personality]

Oh great, more Free Thought bloggers coming online. I can hardly wait to see what they come up with. I hope they introduce another spellinge gimmicke. Perhapsa onea who appendsa an amusinga vowel to the enda ofa random wordsa so itsa likea you'rea readinga scripta fora Dolimo adverta.

[Phil_Giordana_FCD]

You might be discriminated against, sure, but you are not "oppressed".

[Ericb]

In this case she is probably trying to target DJ Grothe through his children - he is applying to adopt at the moment and Svan is desperately attempting a public smear in order to try to get some dirt to stick to his name when the agency does a background check.
Just when you think Svan can't get any worse she manages to surprise us yet again with her boundless mendacity.

Careful there. Zvan is as vindictive as can be, but surely even she can't swoop so low?

Thanks for that mental image...

http://thebrotherhoodofevilgeeks.files. ... arpy-1.jpg

Is Svan The Red Guillotine of FTB?

http://www.mariannebrentzel.de/bilder/b ... -cover.jpg


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilde_Benjamin

[TedDahlberg]

Oh great, more Free Thought bloggers coming online. I can hardly wait to see what they come up with. I hope they introduce another spellinge gimmicke. Perhapsa onea who appendsa an amusinga vowel to the enda ofa random wordsa so itsa likea you'rea readinga scripta fora Dolimo adverta.

http://i.imgur.com/S6UpILc.jpg

(I shall be slightly impressed by anyone who gets the reference.)

[Pitchguest]

Oh great, more Free Thought bloggers coming online. I can hardly wait to see what they come up with. I hope they introduce another spellinge gimmicke. Perhapsa onea who appendsa an amusinga vowel to the enda ofa random wordsa so itsa likea you'rea readinga scripta fora Dolimo adverta.

http://i.imgur.com/S6UpILc.jpg

(I shall be slightly impressed by anyone who gets the reference.)

It's a me, Mario!

[real horrorshow]

<snip>
Things started to really decline for them when they stood in the streets and cheered over the 9-11 attack.
<snip>
Meh.... kids die all the time.... and they die faster when their parents hold them in front of them in a gun fight.

Palestinian lack of empathy, bad.
American lack of empathy, meh.
It's okay when we do it.
This is piss poor thinking John. And please don't tell me that this is your interpretation of broader American attitudes, rather than your own, actual opinion. That's simply dodging the point.

I'm going to regret getting involved in this, but if it's staying on the main thread. I'll comment:

Fuck the history of all this, right back to the Holocaust. Fuck Hamas, who are a stupid and ugly organisation. Fuck the fact that ugly shit is also happening in other parts of the world. The situation right now, is that a huge number of people, with no means to protect themselves or flee, are being blown to shit. Western governments, especially the US government, are not only failing to prevent this, they are actively assisting in it. This is morally wrong.

Worse, if you insist on realpolitik, this is stupid. Current Israeli policy seems to be to wall-in the Palestinians while settlers poach all the available land for the putative 'Palestinian state' and to pound the shit out of them every time a few poorly equipped terrorists try anything. US/Western policy, seems to be to allow this. Eventually, the Palestinians will be so beaten and starved they'll be no threat. This will not work.

Worse, it not only wont work, it will very likely backfire horribly. No matter how cowed and reduced the Palestinians become, there will always be some left. No matter how confused and distracted the Palestinians' allies are now, they will eventually get their shit together. There will still be plenty of Arab money and weapons to spend it on when that time comes.

Meanwhile, the situation in Gaza is fuel for a massive grievance. The American people and their politicians still weep and wail over 9/11, while congratulating themselves that it hasn't happened again. It hasn't, but it can. The Israelis repeat their case that they are a tiny besieged nation, while acting as if that's no longer true. But it is.

A single radiological or chemical bomb, in the centre of a modern city, could inflict casualties on a scale that dwarfs 9/11. If that city was Tel Aviv, It could be a blow from which Israel could not recover. If it was a major American city... Well what would you do John? Say "meh" and change the channel?

[Apples]

Make sense of this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... ne.svg.png

in other words, 80% of the mass in the universe is missing from chop Suey's brain.

[TedDahlberg]

It's a me, Mario!

:clap:

Impressed, not surprised ;)

[Cunt of Personality]

Make sense of this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... ne.svg.png

in other words, 80% of the mass in the universe is missing from chop Suey's brain.

Möbius reasoning. It's circular reasoning, with a twist.

[Za-zen]

Look we are obviously going to go round in circles, there is no justification for either the disregard or willful destruction of civilian lives, let alone the mass murder of children that we are witnessing.

If your ideology has you acting as an apologist for that, then it is your ideology which is seriously fucked. The children of Gaza are people, like my kids, or your fucking kids, not human shields (as so many a sick zionist fuck spewing out the party line, attempts to dehumanize them, and the people of Gaza with such an abhorrent slur).

By the way i realized why so many kids were killed in the holocaust. The jews were using their own kids as human shields, the SS weren't to blame, it was the jews, what do you expect the SS to do, when their very nation is under attack by murderous terrorists.

You do realize that Israel has been "under attack by murderous terrorists" for years, don't you?

But yes, in every other way, Israel is just like Nazi Germany. For instance, just like the Nazis did to the Jews, the Israelis are trying to exterminate all Palestinians. Palestinian children aren't just collateral damage—they're targets.

Oh wait, none of that is true, and your analogy is actually quite... poor.

No, of course Israelis don't view themselves as a master race. And the Palestinians as vermin. You really don't have a clue about the realities of the palestinian conflict.

Here is the deputy fucking speaker, of the fucking knesset expounding a plan which he could have lifted out of mein kampf

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 49103.html

[Phil_Giordana_FCD]

Look, regarding Israel/Palestine, it's mostly the government/governing agent doing that shit. I don't think the average Israelian or Palestinian want to see anyone dead. let alone children. But that's the way it was decided by the chosen few, so just go with it. your voice won't matter anyway in the end.

The Magic of reality.

[John D]

<snip>
Things started to really decline for them when they stood in the streets and cheered over the 9-11 attack.
<snip>
Meh.... kids die all the time.... and they die faster when their parents hold them in front of them in a gun fight.

Palestinian lack of empathy, bad.
American lack of empathy, meh.
It's okay when we do it.
This is piss poor thinking John. And please don't tell me that this is your interpretation of broader American attitudes, rather than your own, actual opinion. That's simply dodging the point.

I'm going to regret getting involved in this, but if it's staying on the main thread. I'll comment:

Fuck the history of all this, right back to the Holocaust. Fuck Hamas, who are a stupid and ugly organisation. Fuck the fact that ugly shit is also happening in other parts of the world. The situation right now, is that a huge number of people, with no means to protect themselves or flee, are being blown to shit. Western governments, especially the US government, are not only failing to prevent this, they are actively assisting in it. This is morally wrong.

Worse, if you insist on realpolitik, this is stupid. Current Israeli policy seems to be to wall-in the Palestinians while settlers poach all the available land for the putative 'Palestinian state' and to pound the shit out of them every time a few poorly equipped terrorists try anything. US/Western policy, seems to be to allow this. Eventually, the Palestinians will be so beaten and starved they'll be no threat. This will not work.

Worse, it not only wont work, it will very likely backfire horribly. No matter how cowed and reduced the Palestinians become, there will always be some left. No matter how confused and distracted the Palestinians' allies are now, they will eventually get their shit together. There will still be plenty of Arab money and weapons to spend it on when that time comes.

Meanwhile, the situation in Gaza is fuel for a massive grievance. The American people and their politicians still weep and wail over 9/11, while congratulating themselves that it hasn't happened again. It hasn't, but it can. The Israelis repeat their case that they are a tiny besieged nation, while acting as if that's no longer true. But it is.

A single radiological or chemical bomb, in the centre of a modern city, could inflict casualties on a scale that dwarfs 9/11. If that city was Tel Aviv, It could be a blow from which Israel could not recover. If it was a major American city... Well what would you do John? Say "meh" and change the channel?

I can't say that I have any great solution to this problem. So, when you accuse me of poor thinking then perhaps I have to agree.

My observation is that most Muslim countries find the Palestinian problem to be a nasty distraction. Many leaders in Muslim majority countries would rather have the Palestinians just go away. They have to claim they are allied with fellow Muslims, but the Palestinians were never very respected in the Muslim world. If the Israelis can find ways to continue to clamp down on the occupied territories without too much destruction then most Muslim countries will just let it happen.

The Palestinians have had opportunities to find negotiated settlements. At the last minute they always go back to the claim that Israel cannot exist. It looks as if this idea is more important to them then finding a peaceful way to raise their families and end fighting. They are in love with their historical story and they are really a culture of martyrs.

There is a risk that a Muslim extremist will cause another great disaster.... even greater than 9-11. For sure this is possible. Of course, it will not come from Palestine. The Palestinians have enough on their hands trying to bomb Israel. If they could find a way to make a splash with a big attack they might try. I do not know how to avoid this risk other than continuing to be diligent with security. For America and for the security of my family I am happy to see the people of the middle east beating the crap out of each other rather than beating the crap out of me.

and perhaps this is my most controversial idea. America has been free from a major terror attack at home because we moved the fighting to Iraq and Afghanistan (and Israel indirectly). We have provided a wonderfully rich environment for martyrs to seek their glory at home. This will keep them out of my backyard... I hope.

So, we Mericans just need to take a low profile right now. We can tell everyone that we can't get involved. Fucking Hell... every time we get involved we fuck things up even more. We can just tell the rest of the world to figure out their own problems. Once they stop killing each other we are happy to buy their shit and set up MacDonalds.

Of course, every fucking Tom, Dick, and Harry country lines up at our door asking for our help. Every side of every conflict tries to suck up our money and resources in the name of their version of justice. Most Americans are telling the world to sort out their own problems. We are tired of our own getting killed and we make things worse. Oh... and by the way.... if you target us will will shovel a ton of rockets up your ass. We will not be kind or gentle or even fair. If you fuck with us we will come over there and give you a decade of death and destruction. We are too fucking proud and too fucking stupid to make a precision attack. So... just stop it!

[real horrorshow]

In the case of Dworkin... her gynacologist didn't believe her.

Andrea Dworkin's gynacologist. That will be Jason Thibault's job in Hell.