Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

Old subthreads
James Caruthers
.
.
Posts: 6257
Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2013 2:50 pm
Contact:

Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#361

Post by James Caruthers »

PLEASE DIE, YOU JUDGEMENTAL OTHERKIN-HYPERSEXUALIZING, ABLE-BODY-OVERPRIVILEGED SEXIST
BURN IN HELL, YOU ATTRACTIVE-DENYING, BINARY-OVERPRIVILEGED MISOGYNIST
:lol:

This insult generator, it's like reading FTB without needing to read FTB. But, do they mention porcupines?

Anyway, still in shock over the Bora thing. PZ goes out of his way to prove his critics correct with all of this "lost/saved" rhetoric. Maybe someday Bora can get down on his knees and pray to feminism for forgiveness.

Being a creepy fuck and getting punished for it is apparently worse than raping little kids.

Bora has paid the price for his mistakes. Time for him to tell the SJL to fuck off, maybe even post some MRA shit on his twitter just to piss them off but good.

Guestus Aurelius
.
.
Posts: 2118
Joined: Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:14 pm
Contact:

Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#362

Post by Guestus Aurelius »

Oh, and Chris Clarke is a hypocritical motherfucker.

Here is my Chris Clarke impression:
Fuck you you Bad Peopleâ„¢ fucking fucks. Go Horde! Fuck those Bad Peopleâ„¢ fuckers to the ground, porcupine style! Go nature!

[a few months later]

Wait, why are you being so mean to, Horde? All I did was disagree with you.

[a few weeks later]

I had to leave Pharyngula because the people there are so mean.

[a few months later]

Fuck you Bora you fucking fuck. I'm a representative of the SJL and you're not a Good Personâ„¢. Fuck you to the ground! Go nature!

Guestus Aurelius
.
.
Posts: 2118
Joined: Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:14 pm
Contact:

Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#363

Post by Guestus Aurelius »

*Why are you being so mean to ME, Horde?

James Caruthers
.
.
Posts: 6257
Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2013 2:50 pm
Contact:

Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#364

Post by James Caruthers »

http://31.media.tumblr.com/cd58ba932629 ... 1_1280.png
http://25.media.tumblr.com/50ed364b1e99 ... o1_500.png
http://24.media.tumblr.com/1cea081dacad ... 1_1280.png
http://24.media.tumblr.com/3f36b45b7b85 ... o1_500.png
http://24.media.tumblr.com/2ee8023c3cfe ... o1_500.png
Damn. This Social Justice Wario thing is insane. The funny thing is, there's this "tone policing" character. So I guess policing tone is bad? But then there's one of a fedora-wearing MRA mario who claims he should be allowed to say words like "faggot" because of South Park. Doesn't that sort of imply that this Social Justice Wario is in favor of policing the tone of those he or she disagrees with? That's what I don't understand about the SJL. Either you're down with insults, in which case "fuck a porcupine" and "niggerfaggot" are both acceptable uses of offensive language, or you're not, in which case they're not.
http://24.media.tumblr.com/fba8a719151b ... o1_500.png
http://media.tumblr.com/d9fd316c3b0395c ... qh3yij.png
https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/imag ... XS-2-qbM0X
Ask permission to make a rape joke, you misogynist. And then let me chastise you for thinking about making one.
http://24.media.tumblr.com/a4a13f5ccaf3 ... o1_500.png
Hmm, it seems other feminists don't get a pass. Isn't "all women have vaginas" technically true? Isn't that why trans women usually want to get operations? I don't understand. Does that mean I can be a woman (a hairy, bearded woman) if I just say that I am? The fuck kind of biological classification is that?

zenbabe
.
.
Posts: 920
Joined: Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:51 pm
Contact:

Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#365

Post by zenbabe »

Guestus Aurelius wrote:
(snip of comments which my confirmational bias found very satisfying)

Oh, and Bora's going out like a punk. Just look at that public apology and his sheepish comments. What he did was an inappropriate abuse of his power as a boss. It was, as another 'pitter said above (I'm not going to check who it was), a very human mistake, and it might not have been a big deal in other contexts. But given the circumstances it was a major fuck-up indeed, and he's paying the price.
The circumstances were that he trusted people he should have never, ever, ever trusted. Little can be more insidiously and powerfully toxic as a modern feminist who didn't get what she/he wants.

If I was the woman he had lunch with, I would have listened to him with .. could be one of a host of reactions. The worst would be annoyed irritation. But I wouldn't have walked away thinking I had been abused and harassed! From the self-confessed stories I read, the reaction was so extreme. Not rational, not compassionate. What he did might have been pathetic (at worst), but so what? People get to be pathetic sometimes, it's pretty common, normal, everyday. It's a foible. You'd think a pack of people with as many issues as they claim to have would be understanding.

Rapists? No, people don't get to be rapists without some serious consequences, and rapists shouldn't expect people to react with compassion to their plights.

Oh wait.
He's already apologized to the only people he owed an apology to. Now he needs to shake it off, forgive himself, look around him, realize how fucking horrible these people are, say "Good riddance," grow a pair, and move on. For his own sake and for his wife's. Thinking about trying to crawl back in to the SJL as a Good Personâ„¢ is understandable from a career perspective, but actually doing it is damned pathetic.
I haven't read his post yet.
Wet noodle would be a sorry way to deal with it all, but my loose, broad stroke understanding of him is that he might be generally weak.

Is he one of those who promoted the very SJLeagers who went on the attack?

KiwiInOz
.
.
Posts: 5230
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:28 pm
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#366

Post by KiwiInOz »

BarnOwl wrote:
KiwiInOz wrote:
BarnOwl wrote:I don't think they'll be satisfied until they're allowed to stone Bora to death, with the following accommodations:

1. The stones must be collected and placed in neat piles with easy access to persons with disabilities, real and imagined.
2. The stones must be smooth and of uniform size, and must be at or below regulation weight required for comfortable throwing by the weaker arms of wimminz.
3. The stonee (BoraZ) must remain within a circle of predetermined diameter, again to accommodate the weaker arms and poorer aim of wimminz.
4. Stones must not be collected from the sacred lands of Oppressed Persons.
Obligatory.

[youtube]MIaORknS1Dk[/youtube]
I had that in mind when I wrote the post. :lol:
And your script was pitch perfect.

John D
.
.
Posts: 4866
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:23 am
Location: Detroit, MI. USA
Contact:

Re: What is "Toxic Feminism"?

#367

Post by John D »

KiwiInOz wrote:
John D wrote:snip
snip I happen to be an engineer... and while some people think of me a a "wage slave"... what I actually do is make cars safer, more fuel efficient, and more affordable. I have designed parts that have been built into literally millions of vehicles. Please find some way to contribute. We need everyone pulling together to make the world a better place. Your simply bitching about shit doesn't really help. Kisses!
What are your thoughts on the feasibility of some of the ideas for the future of transportation (e.g. ultra light-weighting, new drive trains, etc) proposed by the Rocky Mountain Institute?

With or without a replica of Conc H2O.
I am not too familiar with the Rocky Mountain Institute. I have a few opinions for what they are worth. First is that electric vehicles are not very efficient. The problem is that they ave to carry heavy batteries all around that don't store that much energy. Gas packs a lot of punch per pound which makes it perfect for cars.

Trains are super efficient, but they only go from point to point. They also needed dedicated rail space and so air travel is often more effective in the modern economy. Once fuel cost go up rail will become more affordable and more popular.

Weight in cars is a big deal, but most people don't realize that steel is actually an amazing material pound for pound. Aluminum and Mag do have their place, but they are more costly and the price of raw material is very volatile. Steel is more common and high quality steel is very affordable in the modern economy.

So... to summarize. I think that efficient gas powered cars will be here to stay for many decades. Gas powered internal combustion engines work really really well. If you want to save the planet, buy a Civic or a Fiesta. Volts and Leafs are really shitty cars. They are expensive to build, have shitty power, and have high costs when battery replacement is needed. If gas ever gets to $8 per gallon perhaps electrics will make more sense. For the next decades, sensible weight reduction and highly efficient gas engines will rule.

Matt Cavanaugh
.
.
Posts: 13204
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:38 pm
Contact:

Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#368

Post by Matt Cavanaugh »

ConcentratedH2O, OM wrote:
Matt Cavanaugh wrote:
Well, at least Peezus didn't take a 23 year old woman he was mentoring out for lunch, then talk to her about masturbating with a rubber tentacle and the look of his gramma's O-face. That'd be truly disgusting.

Never mind.
:D I'd forgotten. Have you got the reference page to hand?

:lol:
Somebody else at the Pit originally mentioned this. I'm on my phone, & don't have the bookmark. It was on Ashley's old, pre- FTB blog.

paddybrown
.
.
Posts: 1728
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2013 7:06 am
Contact:

Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#369

Post by paddybrown »

BarnOwl wrote:What the absolute cnut is wrong with this woman?
Ophelia Benson
2 January 2014 at 6:44 pm (UTC -6) Link to this comment
It’s not just that “Bora made several women uncomfortable with unwanted advances.” It’s that he changed the subject from the women’s work. It’s that he fucked up their confidence in their work.
Yeah, his actual sin was that, when conversing with women, he talked about himself and not them.

Liesmith
.
.
Posts: 227
Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2013 11:06 pm
Contact:

Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#370

Post by Liesmith »

I thought that the entire problem with what Bora did is that he told these women he was considering hiring them, then instead took them to lunch just to hit on them, without any intention of giving them a job. If that's the case, then fuck that guy. I hate douchebags who abuse their authority like that, particularly considering that such a business lunch would be "on the clock" for him, but just a massive waste of time for the other person. His punishment should be the revocation of hiring/firing authority (if he ever possessed it to begin with) for ever ever ever ever.

If that's not what happened, then I have no clue what the problem is. Maybe he said a naughty word?

Phil_Giordana_FCD
.
.
Posts: 11875
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:56 pm
Location: Nice, France
Contact:

Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#371

Post by Phil_Giordana_FCD »

Liesmith wrote:I thought that the entire problem with what Bora did is that he told these women he was considering hiring them, then instead took them to lunch just to hit on them, without any intention of giving them a job. If that's the case, then fuck that guy. I hate douchebags who abuse their authority like that, particularly considering that such a business lunch would be "on the clock" for him, but just a massive waste of time for the other person. His punishment should be the revocation of hiring/firing authority (if he ever possessed it to begin with) for ever ever ever ever.

If that's not what happened, then I have no clue what the problem is. Maybe he said a naughty word?
That sums up my feelings as well.


paddybrown
.
.
Posts: 1728
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2013 7:06 am
Contact:

Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#373

Post by paddybrown »

Liesmith wrote:I thought that the entire problem with what Bora did is that he told these women he was considering hiring them, then instead took them to lunch just to hit on them, without any intention of giving them a job. If that's the case, then fuck that guy. I hate douchebags who abuse their authority like that, particularly considering that such a business lunch would be "on the clock" for him, but just a massive waste of time for the other person. His punishment should be the revocation of hiring/firing authority (if he ever possessed it to begin with) for ever ever ever ever.

If that's not what happened, then I have no clue what the problem is. Maybe he said a naughty word?
Well, here's Monica Byrne's blog post that started all this.

By her own account, she invited him out for coffee. It doesn't seem to have been clear to both parties that it was a business meeting rather than a social one. She brought up going to strip clubs. When he talked about himself she said "wow", "that's so cool" and "that's so neat". Internally, apparently, she was thinking about how uncomfortable she was and about how she could only write for him if she never had to meet him again. At the end of the meeting, she hugged him. Over the next few weeks, she extorted an apology out of him by email. Now she has a "clear admission that he did something wrong" that she can use against him.

I smell a rat. If there are this many mixed messages in her own account of the meeting, god knows how many there actually were in real life.

Dick Strawkins
.
.
Posts: 5859
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:34 pm
Contact:

Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#374

Post by Dick Strawkins »

paddybrown wrote:
Liesmith wrote:I thought that the entire problem with what Bora did is that he told these women he was considering hiring them, then instead took them to lunch just to hit on them, without any intention of giving them a job. If that's the case, then fuck that guy. I hate douchebags who abuse their authority like that, particularly considering that such a business lunch would be "on the clock" for him, but just a massive waste of time for the other person. His punishment should be the revocation of hiring/firing authority (if he ever possessed it to begin with) for ever ever ever ever.

If that's not what happened, then I have no clue what the problem is. Maybe he said a naughty word?
Well, here's Monica Byrne's blog post that started all this.

By her own account, she invited him out for coffee. It doesn't seem to have been clear to both parties that it was a business meeting rather than a social one. She brought up going to strip clubs. When he talked about himself she said "wow", "that's so cool" and "that's so neat". Internally, apparently, she was thinking about how uncomfortable she was and about how she could only write for him if she never had to meet him again. At the end of the meeting, she hugged him. Over the next few weeks, she extorted an apology out of him by email. Now she has a "clear admission that he did something wrong" that she can use against him.

I smell a rat. If there are this many mixed messages in her own account of the meeting, god knows how many there actually were in real life.
That is similar to my impression. Byrne was a facebook 'friend' of Bora's who asked him out to 'coffee' (and we all know what that means!)
The real problem seems to have been that Bora's job and outlook on his job created a situation where he had no clear boundaries between his work life and his social life - socializing for him seems to consist of parties at science communication events, or otherwise informal meetings with fellow science bloggers.
I noticed a common theme in the posts of almost all of those lining up for a chance to lob a stone at his head, that he had been very helpful to them personally but was in some way 'creepy' (as in not respecting boundaries - asking for hugs, talking about private matters etc.)
Remember, the act that precipitated Byrnes 'J'Accuse' post was the Sci Am kerfuffle over Danielle Lee's experience with some media arsehole who called her a whore for asking whether she would get paid for writing for his company (an offshoot of Sci Am.) Bora was away when the initial row broke out but when her returned he stepped in, got an apology for Lee and the arsehole got canned.
Isn't that exactly what you hope a decent person would have done?
But no, Byrnes explanation that it was this situation that made it necessary for her to 'out' Bora seems to have not raised even the slightest question mark.
Why wait an entire year and then out him?
My impression was that she intended to use the initial incident as a means of self promotion. She saw an opportunity to relight the fire after the Danielle Lee situation and jumped in.

That said, I don't think Bora should be let off the hook here. If the accounts from various people are to be believed, he did a lot to promote various women in the scienceblogging world. And it is those very women that turned up, stones in hand, ready to finish him off. None of them seemed to have a real case of harassment other than a vague feeling that he might have promoted them in order to get more friendly and eventually, who know, elevators and coffee?
Other women seemed annoyed that he didn't pursue them - leaving them feeling indequate in some way!

Well, if you as a head of a company, promote a lot of underlings who then procede to stab you in the back, haven't you been guilty of errors of judgement?

There seems to be a catch22 situation here - don't promote women and you will get accused of sexism.
Promote more women than might be justified by their ability, and you are likely to have promoted some who will stab you in the back at a moments notice over vague unproveable accusations of harassment.

I wonder whether the whole fiasco will have a sobering effect on the field, in that it will end up making people less likely to hire or promote women in the long run - the exact opposite of what Bora's critics seem to want.

Southern
.
.
Posts: 3464
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:28 pm
Location: Rio Grande do Sul, Brazil
Contact:

Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#375

Post by Southern »

Tribble wrote:
Mykeru wrote:I've noticed there's a paucity of discussion regarding whether or not I'm a cnut, whatever that is.
I thought it was a universal constant, like the Newtonian Constant of Gravitation -- 6.67384(80)×10−11 m3·kg−1·s−2 It's solved, the equation works and there's nothing left to discuss...
Actually, I believe is a mispell of Knuth, as in Donald Knuth, author of The Art of Programming and probably a huge misoginy.

James Caruthers
.
.
Posts: 6257
Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2013 2:50 pm
Contact:

Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#376

Post by James Caruthers »

Bora's sin was that of revealing himself to be a pathetic man in the company of a woman. If he could be said to be flirting or propositioning her, he was doing it in the most pussy passive way possible (excuse the heteronormative cisgendered language there.) It's not like he told her to suck his cock or else not get hired. He paid many times over for his offense, and continues to apologize even now. But that is not good enough. He is apparently to be banned from Twitter and all social media until the Social Justice League feel he has learned his lesson like a good little bitch.

The SJL is like a masochist's wet dream. I don't know why anyone else would sign up to be abused by them, however.

And as always, who knows what actually happened. The SJL has a tendency to exaggerate minor offenses (like someone using the wrong gender pronoun to refer to someone else) to ridiculous levels. Their over-the-top reaction would be more appropriate to, I dunno, somebody who RAPED CHILDREN. Or maybe that Michael Vick guy, who was involved in dog fighting. Something that actually matters. Not this hurt feels "taking attention away from women" bullshit.

When will passive guys learn: feminism is not your friend. Feminism hates you. The SJL hates you. The minute you show weakness or admit to fault (as passive guys like Bora often do), they will destroy you.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/almostdiamo ... bout-bora/
Guy resigned from his job. But hey, that's not enough yet, is it? He hasn't bled enough for the enjoyment of mighty PZ.

Guy loses his job (well, resigns) for, in the words of the accuser, "not quite harassment." Most of her tales of horror are extremely minor and could be chalked up to her reading waaaay too much into his actions. If you assume Bora is a socially inept passive guy with massive insecurities, a lot of the strange stuff coming out of his mouth (which never crosses into legit harassment AFAIK) is explainable.

So, how many months does he have to atone for? How many hail peezies?

Southern
.
.
Posts: 3464
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:28 pm
Location: Rio Grande do Sul, Brazil
Contact:

Re: What is "Toxic Feminism"?

#377

Post by Southern »

Steersman wrote:That previous comment of mine got a rise out of Ophelia in any case:
Ophelia Benson wrote:
January 2, 2014 at 1:22 pm (UTC -8) Link to this comment

“Steersman” tells me to answer that question by looking in the mirror. Cute.
My response – which doesn’t even show up as “Awaiting moderation”:
Steersman wrote:And I said a lot more to boot. That you don't post it more or less corroborates my point. Which I've also made in the Pit should you happen to be lurking about there again ....
Is Ophelia lurking here again? Since we were talking about Return of Jedi, I want to tell Ophie something:

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/new ... 076/a1.jpg

James Caruthers
.
.
Posts: 6257
Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2013 2:50 pm
Contact:

Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#378

Post by James Caruthers »

Oh and "creepy" is the word you throw at a guy when you don't have any specific criminal charges but still feel he deserves to be demonized in front of the crowd. "Creepy" often translates to "unattractive man with poor social skills" which, last I checked, was not a crime. There are more than enough unattractive women with poor social skills in the world, and I certainly have never heard of feminists calling those individuals creepy, pathetic virgins, etc.

The irony. The SJL exploit the male-female gender role double standard even while bitching about it.

Tribble
.
.
Posts: 5102
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:34 pm
Contact:

Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#379

Post by Tribble »

Guestus Aurelius wrote:The original trilogy, I mean. Should go without saying.

You mean the first 2.5 movies... Because the furballs totally wrecked the second half of the third movie.

Scented Nectar
.
.
Posts: 4969
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:45 am
Contact:

Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#380

Post by Scented Nectar »

BarnOwl wrote:Linky to Bora's blog post, for anyone interested:

http://blog.coturnix.org/2014/01/01/201 ... in-review/

In a reasonable community, the "one strike" policy is extreme, oppressively judgmental, and inconsistent with true social justice practices in meatspace. However, given the self-involved, ridiculous, entitlement-reeking overreactions of the internet community in question, I have to admit that Comradde PhysioPreppie's suggestions in the comments may be the only option. IOW, self-imposed exile from the online science/rational/skeptic community, which is increasingly neither scientific nor rational.
That apology article was painful to read. Bora has bought into the cult's judgements against him, lock stock and barrel. He's apologizing every which way from whatever. And over what? He flirted with some women? OOOOOOooooooooooh, what a crime! What a terrible, harmful, horrible crime!!!!

Are the feminists all in Orwell's Junior Anti-Sex League? That's a rhetorical question. I already know the answer.

Well Bora, go lick their shoes until they've forgiven you for being human. And don't forget: Pretend, pretend, pretend. Pretend that you're the approved deepity/crazy-claim spouting robots that they are. Ugh. Bora, you are probably too far gone to save. I mean who, with any amount of self esteem, would go cry cry sorry sorry really sorry, at assholes who accuse you of a crime when you've not done anything wrong.

It's fucking pathetic seeing someone do that. The healthy response would have been "get lost, I've done nothing wrong". Fucking pathetic. Maybe he's got some sort of serious hating himself going on.

AnonymousCowherd
.
.
Posts: 1708
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2012 2:49 am
Location: The Penumbra of Doubt
Contact:

Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#381

Post by AnonymousCowherd »

KiwiInOz wrote:It's 40 degrees C here at the moment. Fuck it's hot!!!!
Just got an email from someone in the back o' beyond in Qld to say it was 49C in the loungeroom this afternoon, and they expect the same temp for the next week to ten days. Eek!

One of these days, I'll have to let them know about egg nishners.

It's hell in the tropics.

Southern
.
.
Posts: 3464
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:28 pm
Location: Rio Grande do Sul, Brazil
Contact:

Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#382

Post by Southern »

Now, now. I know what PZ really wants Bora to do to repent for his sins. Bora should watch this instrucional video in loop for about 12 hours or so, Clockwork Orange style:

[youtube]F-dOGsjRjh8[/youtube]

Then he might see the Truth of the Social Pharyngulan Pheminist Justice League. Amen, brother.

AnonymousCowherd
.
.
Posts: 1708
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2012 2:49 am
Location: The Penumbra of Doubt
Contact:

Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#383

Post by AnonymousCowherd »

Aneris wrote:If I had an account to ritually sacrifice, I'd comment “Perhaps Bora takes example from Ogvorbis who repented properly and is rightfully accepted as a loved member of the tribe. There is apparently a way for redemption”

Well, its technically true. :popcorn:
Don't worry - as many of the SJWs have now read your comment as would have seen it on FTB, including teh Peezus.

Dick Strawkins
.
.
Posts: 5859
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:34 pm
Contact:

Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#384

Post by Dick Strawkins »

Scented Nectar wrote:
BarnOwl wrote:Linky to Bora's blog post, for anyone interested:

http://blog.coturnix.org/2014/01/01/201 ... in-review/

In a reasonable community, the "one strike" policy is extreme, oppressively judgmental, and inconsistent with true social justice practices in meatspace. However, given the self-involved, ridiculous, entitlement-reeking overreactions of the internet community in question, I have to admit that Comradde PhysioPreppie's suggestions in the comments may be the only option. IOW, self-imposed exile from the online science/rational/skeptic community, which is increasingly neither scientific nor rational.
That apology article was painful to read. Bora has bought into the cult's judgements against him, lock stock and barrel. He's apologizing every which way from whatever. And over what? He flirted with some women? OOOOOOooooooooooh, what a crime! What a terrible, harmful, horrible crime!!!!

Are the feminists all in Orwell's Junior Anti-Sex League? That's a rhetorical question. I already know the answer.

Well Bora, go lick their shoes until they've forgiven you for being human. And don't forget: Pretend, pretend, pretend. Pretend that you're the approved deepity/crazy-claim spouting robots that they are. Ugh. Bora, you are probably too far gone to save. I mean who, with any amount of self esteem, would go cry cry sorry sorry really sorry, at assholes who accuse you of a crime when you've not done anything wrong.

It's fucking pathetic seeing someone do that. The healthy response would have been "get lost, I've done nothing wrong". Fucking pathetic. Maybe he's got some sort of serious hating himself going on.
Bora needs to be shunned, not for any either real or imagined transgressions, but to serve as a visible warning to others.

Step out of line and this is what will happen to you.

zenbabe
.
.
Posts: 920
Joined: Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:51 pm
Contact:

Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#385

Post by zenbabe »

Dick Strawkins wrote:
(snip so many good things)

Well, if you as a head of a company, promote a lot of underlings who then procede to stab you in the back, haven't you been guilty of errors of judgement?

There seems to be a catch22 situation here - don't promote women and you will get accused of sexism.
Promote more women than might be justified by their ability, and you are likely to have promoted some who will stab you in the back at a moments notice over vague unproveable accusations of harassment.
Yesssss!
Omg so yes.
He, CFI, any professionals who deal with these people as if they're actually professionals too, as if they can separate the "on the record" from the "off the record", who are so STRICT but aren't wearing a nun's habit, continue to promote them, this is what they (CFI etc) can expect to happen unless they stop it. The FCun(n)ts are their baby.
I wonder whether the whole fiasco will have a sobering effect on the field, in that it will end up making people less likely to hire or promote women in the long run - the exact opposite of what Bora's critics seem to want.
Hope springs
But we're being idealistic in thinking it will ever really end. Mark Twain was complaining about the power of this kind of mentality, or so it seems to me (the eater of crayons).

Scented Nectar
.
.
Posts: 4969
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:45 am
Contact:

Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#386

Post by Scented Nectar »

Liesmith wrote:I thought that the entire problem with what Bora did is that he told these women he was considering hiring them, then instead took them to lunch just to hit on them, without any intention of giving them a job. If that's the case, then fuck that guy. I hate douchebags who abuse their authority like that, particularly considering that such a business lunch would be "on the clock" for him, but just a massive waste of time for the other person. His punishment should be the revocation of hiring/firing authority (if he ever possessed it to begin with) for ever ever ever ever.

If that's not what happened, then I have no clue what the problem is. Maybe he said a naughty word?
Did Bora himself or an alleged 'victim' herself claim that it was under false job pretenses? If not, it's probably just the moron horde confabulating and exaggerating again.

Pogsurf

Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#387

Post by Pogsurf »

Talk of Zivkovic losing a job is surely ironic, when in fact he is already working very hard at his new job. That is pleasing the emotions of those who choose to live vicariously. Since he has transgressed, the sort of things that will make them feel happy will be hearing how much he is suffering, so it is never going to be a great job for his own sense of self-worth. Naturally enough a therapist will gladly step in an help relieve him of some cash along the way.

Alternatively he could choose to turn his back on self-pity. Not an easy step to make because it takes a much deeper examination of what went wrong and why. I hope he chooses the best path for him, as I would for anybody who has to face difficult choices.

In the mean-time we can all enjoy the drama; has Szvan leeched any further poison into the mix just yet, or is she seeking wiser counsel?

zenbabe
.
.
Posts: 920
Joined: Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:51 pm
Contact:

Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#388

Post by zenbabe »

I loved all of those images, the one above especially (and the Tone Troller, and the Barbie-ish feminist).

But in my mind, it's droolin oolin who's wearing the shades in the one above :D

"Makes you want to stomp on their head"
:lol:

"Basically just a huge dick"
:lol:

Those are the most childishly delightful, but the others are all so great I can't pick a favorite!

Scented Nectar
.
.
Posts: 4969
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:45 am
Contact:

Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#389

Post by Scented Nectar »

paddybrown wrote:
Liesmith wrote:I thought that the entire problem with what Bora did is that he told these women he was considering hiring them, then instead took them to lunch just to hit on them, without any intention of giving them a job. If that's the case, then fuck that guy. I hate douchebags who abuse their authority like that, particularly considering that such a business lunch would be "on the clock" for him, but just a massive waste of time for the other person. His punishment should be the revocation of hiring/firing authority (if he ever possessed it to begin with) for ever ever ever ever.

If that's not what happened, then I have no clue what the problem is. Maybe he said a naughty word?
Well, here's Monica Byrne's blog post that started all this.

By her own account, she invited him out for coffee. It doesn't seem to have been clear to both parties that it was a business meeting rather than a social one. She brought up going to strip clubs. When he talked about himself she said "wow", "that's so cool" and "that's so neat". Internally, apparently, she was thinking about how uncomfortable she was and about how she could only write for him if she never had to meet him again. At the end of the meeting, she hugged him. Over the next few weeks, she extorted an apology out of him by email. Now she has a "clear admission that he did something wrong" that she can use against him.

I smell a rat. If there are this many mixed messages in her own account of the meeting, god knows how many there actually were in real life.
I smell a rat too. There is nothing in her claim saying that Bora held a job over her head to make her put out. And even though she first brought up sexual topics, she is retroactively upset that he continued along that vein. She admits that he didn't notice how she was feeling when she was hiding her discomfort, but did she bother to tell him? No. I guess he should have known by telepathy.

Ape+lust
Pit Art Master
Pit Art Master
Posts: 7364
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:55 pm
Contact:

Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#390

Post by Ape+lust »

Scented Nectar wrote:
BarnOwl wrote:Linky to Bora's blog post, for anyone interested:

http://blog.coturnix.org/2014/01/01/201 ... in-review/

In a reasonable community, the "one strike" policy is extreme, oppressively judgmental, and inconsistent with true social justice practices in meatspace. However, given the self-involved, ridiculous, entitlement-reeking overreactions of the internet community in question, I have to admit that Comradde PhysioPreppie's suggestions in the comments may be the only option. IOW, self-imposed exile from the online science/rational/skeptic community, which is increasingly neither scientific nor rational.
That apology article was painful to read. Bora has bought into the cult's judgements against him, lock stock and barrel. He's apologizing every which way from whatever. And over what? He flirted with some women? OOOOOOooooooooooh, what a crime! What a terrible, harmful, horrible crime!!!!

Are the feminists all in Orwell's Junior Anti-Sex League? That's a rhetorical question. I already know the answer.

Well Bora, go lick their shoes until they've forgiven you for being human. And don't forget: Pretend, pretend, pretend. Pretend that you're the approved deepity/crazy-claim spouting robots that they are. Ugh. Bora, you are probably too far gone to save. I mean who, with any amount of self esteem, would go cry cry sorry sorry really sorry, at assholes who accuse you of a crime when you've not done anything wrong.

It's fucking pathetic seeing someone do that. The healthy response would have been "get lost, I've done nothing wrong". Fucking pathetic. Maybe he's got some sort of serious hating himself going on.
Yeah, Bora's fucking up and doesn't know it. He doesn't understand that grovelling won't make them hate him less. Worse, they'll expect him to be useful, their punk waterboy from here on. Justin Griffith didn't see that, but Thunderf00t did.

Really, I don't get these guys. They so want to belong that they can't step back and see that "social justice," noble as the idea might be, is in practice just rules-gaming for narcissistic slackers. Why would anyone concerned about injustice want to waste their time inside a hothouse of tears and posturing heroics?

Ape+lust
Pit Art Master
Pit Art Master
Posts: 7364
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:55 pm
Contact:

Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#391

Post by Ape+lust »

Alas, Sedona is not to be. Not until they find another source of chump money for their Arizona road trip.

zenbabe
.
.
Posts: 920
Joined: Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:51 pm
Contact:

Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#392

Post by zenbabe »

Dick Strawkins wrote:
I wonder whether the whole fiasco will have a sobering effect on the field, in that it will end up making people less likely to hire or promote women in the long run - the exact opposite of what Bora's critics seem to want.
Btw, your word "sobering" there triggered another thought. Which is that perhaps they should all stop drinking together, because some of those people are seriously faking their hedonistic side (they don't have one).

Coffee and lunch are awfully milque toast to qualify as "hedonistic", but that's how blurred the lines are with the toxicity of the SJLeagueofCunts.

paddybrown
.
.
Posts: 1728
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2013 7:06 am
Contact:

Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#393

Post by paddybrown »

Ape+lust wrote: Really, I don't get these guys. They so want to belong that they can't step back and see that "social justice," noble as the idea might be, is in practice just rules-gaming for narcissistic slackers. Why would anyone concerned about injustice want to waste their time inside a hothouse of tears and posturing heroics?
It really just comes down to approval seeking. It's a really self-destructive pattern of behaviour and hard to break, but unfortunately a lot of modern parenting and education seem to promote it. You see it in feminists complaining that women get "penalised" for taking time off work to have children - "but I was good! why didn't I get rewarded?"

Scented Nectar
.
.
Posts: 4969
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:45 am
Contact:

Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#394

Post by Scented Nectar »

Dick Strawkins wrote:
Scented Nectar wrote:That apology article was painful to read. Bora has bought into the cult's judgements against him, lock stock and barrel. He's apologizing every which way from whatever. And over what? He flirted with some women? OOOOOOooooooooooh, what a crime! What a terrible, harmful, horrible crime!!!!

Are the feminists all in Orwell's Junior Anti-Sex League? That's a rhetorical question. I already know the answer.

Well Bora, go lick their shoes until they've forgiven you for being human. And don't forget: Pretend, pretend, pretend. Pretend that you're the approved deepity/crazy-claim spouting robots that they are. Ugh. Bora, you are probably too far gone to save. I mean who, with any amount of self esteem, would go cry cry sorry sorry really sorry, at assholes who accuse you of a crime when you've not done anything wrong.

It's fucking pathetic seeing someone do that. The healthy response would have been "get lost, I've done nothing wrong". Fucking pathetic. Maybe he's got some sort of serious hating himself going on.
Bora needs to be shunned, not for any either real or imagined transgressions, but to serve as a visible warning to others.

Step out of line and this is what will happen to you.
Anyone have one of those "Shun him!" unicorn videos handy? :)

The feminists, especially the fftb ones, are like a car crash one can't look away from. A car crash that keeps crashing and crashing and crashing. Surely it'll stop at some point? Nope. It doesn't stop. It's a perpetual entertainment machine!

zenbabe
.
.
Posts: 920
Joined: Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:51 pm
Contact:

Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#395

Post by zenbabe »

Scented Nectar wrote: That apology article was painful to read. Bora has bought into the cult's judgements against him, lock stock and barrel. He's apologizing every which way from whatever. And over what? He flirted with some women? OOOOOOooooooooooh, what a crime! What a terrible, harmful, horrible crime!!!!

Are the feminists all in Orwell's Junior Anti-Sex League? That's a rhetorical question. I already know the answer.

Well Bora, go lick their shoes until they've forgiven you for being human. And don't forget: Pretend, pretend, pretend. Pretend that you're the approved deepity/crazy-claim spouting robots that they are. Ugh. Bora, you are probably too far gone to save. I mean who, with any amount of self esteem, would go cry cry sorry sorry really sorry, at assholes who accuse you of a crime when you've not done anything wrong.

It's fucking pathetic seeing someone do that. The healthy response would have been "get lost, I've done nothing wrong". Fucking pathetic. Maybe he's got some sort of serious hating himself going on.
Sing it!
From the sounds of things, he's got a wincingly painful home life anyway. One of those situations which, I imagine, makes him susceptible to weakness.

Mykeru
.
.
Posts: 4758
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:52 am
Contact:

Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#396

Post by Mykeru »

Here's a long-form account of interactions with Bora Zivkovic:
My story begins in November 2010 at the National Association of Science Writers (NASW) conference in New Haven, Conn. As a graduate student in the Health and Medical Journalism master’s program at the University of Georgia, I was eager to get my name out to potential employers. On that Saturday evening, with conversations ricocheting off the walls of the Peabody Museum of Natural History, I felt overwhelmed. I drank two glasses of wine. A group of us stood outside later, waiting for cabs to take us to the restaurants. I ended up in a cab with Bora. On an empty stomach, and with the alcohol slowing down my cognition, I remember acting fascinated by Bora’s story of how he arrived in America. I asked question after question, as journalists do. We arrived at the restaurant. We all ate. The restaurant check arrived. Bora pointed to me and another girl. “I’ll pay for theirs,” he told the waiter. If I recall, there were about six other women—and perhaps one other guy—sitting at our table. After dinner, I made my way to the hotel lobby, anxious to get away from Bora because I knew I was putting myself in a risky situation. But somehow we ended up standing together in front of the elevators. “Let’s go up to the bar at the top,” he suggested to me. I nodded. Once there, I ordered a plain Coke. He talked and talked. I don’t remember much. I do remember, as we later both stood waiting for the bell to signal my floor, that he leaned over and kissed me on top of my head. I mumbled a farewell as the doors opened and walked away.

Fast-forward to May 2012. I’d been recently hired by Nature Publishing Group to complete a graduate-level news writing internship in New York City. During his near-monthly visits to the same building for Scientific American, he visited me at my desk. After he finished talking to me once, my co-worker leaned over to me. “Was that your husband?” she asked me. “Oh, god, no!” I said.

I agreed to meet Bora for dinner in New York at some point in July 2012. While we sat in the restaurant, Bora looked around anxiously, as if NSA itself might be watching. I ordered one glass of wine. During conversation, I said: “You know, you stole that kiss from me at Yale in 2010. I did not ask you to kiss me.” Then, kicking myself for not saying that I felt also violated, I sat silently while he talked and we finished dinner. We walked outside. It was a balmy evening in the city. With the wine or with that city’s energy, I suddenly thought: Maybe this is a good thing. Maybe Bora does want to be my friend and I can learn, with him, to stand up to men in positions of power.

After a few moments of walking, Bora said to me, apropos of nothing: “I have not had sex with my wife for seven years.” Speechless, I walked on in silence. He described his frustration about this situation. After he stopped talking I said: “Are you suggesting that you’d like to have sex with me?!” He confirmed my worst fear. “Well, I’m sorry, but I am not interested in that. I’m happily married,” I said. He apologized and brushed it off.

We met several more times that summer. With each visit, my confidence and willingness to speak up withered. I left our meetings feeling crushed, confused, cowardly. He joked that he wished he could sneak into my apartment on the Upper West Side.

This past June, at the 8th World Conference of Science Journalists meeting in Helsinki, I participated on a panel with my incredibly talented fellow science journalists. Bora recruited all of us and organized the panel. On the night before the meeting began, he arrived to the official conference hotel late at night. “Which room are you in?” Bora texted before or soon after he entered the hotel. I sent him the room number where my husband and I stayed. “Can I come by and see you now?” he texted. “No, I’m afraid we have to wait until tomorrow morning. My husband is already in bed, sorry,” I texted back. A few moments later, I heard a knock at our door. I opened it expecting to see housekeeping staff. Bora stood there. He said, “Hi!!” and walked past me into our room. My husband sat shocked in our hotel bed. Bora grabbed me in an embrace, picked me up, swirled me around, and kissed me on the cheek. After a few minutes of small talk, he left.

This past August, I excitedly participated in a climate conference in Washington, D.C. Bora was also there. He stuck to my side like glue, or so it felt. Paranoid that people were glaring at me and wondering why he hung out with me, I tried to distance myself from him. One night after the conference we walked to a café to buy gelato. While sitting on steps in front of a building, Bora brought up the topic of sex with his wife again. I pleaded with him. “Actually, could you please not tell me any more about your wife without her permission?” And I added: “I do not want to hear about you and she having sex anymore.” He backed off, as he had done in past instances. “I’m sorry—I keep thinking that talking about it might help you,” he replied. “I don’t think it does,” I said.

There are many other examples, instances, encounters. And then there are the emails.

But it’s time that you see this side of Bora that I have seen. I want you to understand. This must stop.

For brevity and ease of reading, I have copied and pasted below a selection from numerous emails between Bora and I.

August 2, 2012: KATHLEEN WROTE: That you respect my limits and boundaries will make me all the more aware of yours. Now I have begun to relax and know that things are off to a fine start!

August 3, 2012: BORA’S REPLY: I likewise feel that the ‘dangerous’ moments have passed, and that we have a beginning of a wonderful friendship, having each other as confidants, enjoying each others company, enjoying intellectual discussions, sharing deepest secrets with complete trust, and yes, feeling safe to do flirty things with each other fully knowing it does not mean a breach of trust — just our little shared secret, little “speaking in code” that only you and I understand. So happy we resolved this like smart, civilized, mature people.

May 20, 2013: BORA’S REPLY: [an excerpt from a much longer email] …There’s no way in hell I can or could do anything like that with you. Not now. Not last year. You are a very different person. Catholic guilt, Southern childhood, personal history — for you probably everything physical is sexual and in a negative way. Both last year and before/after, if I kissed your lips or grabbed your ass, you’d have freaked out! I’d mean it in a totally friendly nonchalant kind of way — as a non-sexual act even at the time when I wanted you — but you’d understand it very differently. So I am glad that on the very first night (and then clarified once more later), our agreement also included these kinds of rules, where can lips and hands go or not go when we hug. Much better that way than me making a mistake at some point, losing your trust that way…
What I see here is the collision of two damaged people.

Note early on the writer goes on about the two glasses of wine, the empty stomach, feeling overwhelmed. You can sense her passing on having any agency. Maybe she was buzzed on two glasses of wine and an empty stomach, but you get the sense it was, to her, something that happened to her, rather than something she did. And apparently it colored the situation and everyone was supposed to, what, know she was two wine drunk? Apparently she was previously the victim, if we accept her history at face value, of some guy grooming her when she was 16. However, among his horrible transgression was noticing she missed a spot when shaving her legs.

On the other hand, Bora is simply off. Apparently he is either in an unhappy marriage or is some guy trying to get pity points by portraying it as such. I don't know if he is looking for hot weasel sex or is just a kind of feckless unhappy guy desperate for attention, affection and affirmation. Although I hate the whole "creepy guy" trope he is, well, kind of creepy. I don't know if that's from the language barrier, culture or just his being an awkward geek, but just as he's hanging on people like human fly-paper, back when he had the status, he was hung on himself.

There's musical chairs of mutual using going on, until one person breaks the clinch and wins by claiming they were used. A lot is being made of the power differential and there's something to that. Of course, it's exactly that power that made a jittering socially inept grease smear like Bora so interesting in the first place.

But if Bora is such an unhappy guy, as I think he is, that puts a new dimension on P.Z Myers demanding bottomless self-flagellation in the public square. He's lost a lot, and perhaps rightly so, but he hasn't lost everything. Yet. Maybe the Freethought Bullies, consciously or otherwise, want to see of they can up their sense of personal power by driving someone to stick a gun in his mouth.

Scented Nectar
.
.
Posts: 4969
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:45 am
Contact:

Feminists are drama-seeking missiles

#397

Post by Scented Nectar »

Ape+lust wrote:Yeah, Bora's fucking up and doesn't know it. He doesn't understand that grovelling won't make them hate him less. Worse, they'll expect him to be useful, their punk waterboy from here on. Justin Griffith didn't see that, but Thunderf00t did.

Really, I don't get these guys. They so want to belong that they can't step back and see that "social justice," noble as the idea might be, is in practice just rules-gaming for narcissistic slackers. Why would anyone concerned about injustice want to waste their time inside a hothouse of tears and posturing heroics?
They enjoy indulging in 'poor me' dramatics. The way they leap at any chance for drama and victimhood (and its attending mass sympathy gain), makes me figure that most of them are narcissists or borderline. Or maybe other types of cluster B disorders. From Wiki:
Cluster B (dramatic, emotional or erratic disorders)
Antisocial personality disorder: a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others, lack of empathy
Borderline personality disorder: pervasive pattern of instability in relationships, self-image, identity, behavior and affects often leading to self-harm and impulsivity
Histrionic personality disorder: pervasive pattern of attention-seeking behavior and excessive emotions
Narcissistic personality disorder: a pervasive pattern of grandiosity, need for admiration, and a lack of empathy

zenbabe
.
.
Posts: 920
Joined: Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:51 pm
Contact:

Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#398

Post by zenbabe »

Scented Nectar wrote: I smell a rat too. There is nothing in her claim saying that Bora held a job over her head to make her put out. And even though she first brought up sexual topics, she is retroactively upset that he continued along that vein. She admits that he didn't notice how she was feeling when she was hiding her discomfort, but did she bother to tell him? No. I guess he should have known by telepathy.
Those men!
Those silly men, am I right, Scented?
They don't know how to read our physical cues, which are so obvious to anyone with a brain unpoisoned by testostrone. My smiles, my laughs, my invites to lunch, my sociable and warm, friendly tone of voice, my introduction of sexual subjects, clearly indicate that I'm uncomfortable with the man's positive response. Duh.

Mykeru
.
.
Posts: 4758
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:52 am
Contact:

Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#399

Post by Mykeru »

zenbabe wrote:
Scented Nectar wrote: I smell a rat too. There is nothing in her claim saying that Bora held a job over her head to make her put out. And even though she first brought up sexual topics, she is retroactively upset that he continued along that vein. She admits that he didn't notice how she was feeling when she was hiding her discomfort, but did she bother to tell him? No. I guess he should have known by telepathy.
Those men!
Those silly men, am I right, Scented?
They don't know how to read our physical cues, which are so obvious to anyone with a brain unpoisoned by testostrone. My smiles, my laughs, my invites to lunch, my sociable and warm, friendly tone of voice, my introduction of sexual subjects, clearly indicate that I'm uncomfortable with the man's positive response. Duh.
I also find it strange that women who seem to gravitate and suck up to men with power and status, real or perceived, then get to complain about the power differential.

Can someone explain to me why, if Bora was such a dorky slimey bit of work, he was also sort of a chick magnet?

Scented Nectar
.
.
Posts: 4969
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:45 am
Contact:

Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#400

Post by Scented Nectar »

zenbabe wrote:
Scented Nectar wrote: That apology article was painful to read. Bora has bought into the cult's judgements against him, lock stock and barrel. He's apologizing every which way from whatever. And over what? He flirted with some women? OOOOOOooooooooooh, what a crime! What a terrible, harmful, horrible crime!!!!

Are the feminists all in Orwell's Junior Anti-Sex League? That's a rhetorical question. I already know the answer.

Well Bora, go lick their shoes until they've forgiven you for being human. And don't forget: Pretend, pretend, pretend. Pretend that you're the approved deepity/crazy-claim spouting robots that they are. Ugh. Bora, you are probably too far gone to save. I mean who, with any amount of self esteem, would go cry cry sorry sorry really sorry, at assholes who accuse you of a crime when you've not done anything wrong.

It's fucking pathetic seeing someone do that. The healthy response would have been "get lost, I've done nothing wrong". Fucking pathetic. Maybe he's got some sort of serious hating himself going on.
Sing it!
From the sounds of things, he's got a wincingly painful home life anyway. One of those situations which, I imagine, makes him susceptible to weakness.
That makes it even sadder if his home life is shitty. I hope it's not, although if what she said in the article about him is true (that he told her there were sexual problems at home), then she has just big-time embarrassed Bora's wife. She acts all 'he shouldn't have shared private stuff with me' but then she goes ahead and blabs it all over the internet.

Ape+lust
Pit Art Master
Pit Art Master
Posts: 7364
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:55 pm
Contact:

Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#401

Post by Ape+lust »

paddybrown wrote:
Ape+lust wrote: Really, I don't get these guys. They so want to belong that they can't step back and see that "social justice," noble as the idea might be, is in practice just rules-gaming for narcissistic slackers. Why would anyone concerned about injustice want to waste their time inside a hothouse of tears and posturing heroics?
It really just comes down to approval seeking. It's a really self-destructive pattern of behaviour and hard to break, but unfortunately a lot of modern parenting and education seem to promote it. You see it in feminists complaining that women get "penalised" for taking time off work to have children - "but I was good! why didn't I get rewarded?"
Maybe he has a chance, since he's an older Serbian immigrant and likely didn't get the western special snowflake rearing.

Probably not though, because he just seems to be a nice guy and you know how much justice leaguers hate Nice Guys. It's time to quit being nice. This worldwide humiliation, with strangers (including me!) talking about him as if he's a critter in a zoo exhibit, is way out of proportion to anything he's done.

zenbabe
.
.
Posts: 920
Joined: Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:51 pm
Contact:

Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#402

Post by zenbabe »

Mykeru wrote:
(lovely and subtle analysis snipped)

But if Bora is such an unhappy guy, as I think he is, that puts a new dimension on P.Z Myers demanding bottomless self-flagellation in the public square. He's lost a lot, and perhaps rightly so, but he hasn't lost everything. Yet. Maybe the Freethought Bullies, consciously or otherwise, want to see of they can up their sense of personal power by driving someone to stick a gun in his mouth.
That, is a living example of a 'sobering thought'.

Scented Nectar
.
.
Posts: 4969
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:45 am
Contact:

Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#403

Post by Scented Nectar »

Mykeru wrote:Here's a long-form account of interactions with Bora Zivkovic:
My story begins in November 2010 at the National Association of Science Writers (NASW) conference in New Haven, Conn. As a graduate student in the Health and Medical Journalism master’s program at the University of Georgia, I was eager to get my name out to potential employers. On that Saturday evening, with conversations ricocheting off the walls of the Peabody Museum of Natural History, I felt overwhelmed. I drank two glasses of wine. A group of us stood outside later, waiting for cabs to take us to the restaurants. I ended up in a cab with Bora. On an empty stomach, and with the alcohol slowing down my cognition, I remember acting fascinated by Bora’s story of how he arrived in America. I asked question after question, as journalists do. We arrived at the restaurant. We all ate. The restaurant check arrived. Bora pointed to me and another girl. “I’ll pay for theirs,” he told the waiter. If I recall, there were about six other women—and perhaps one other guy—sitting at our table. After dinner, I made my way to the hotel lobby, anxious to get away from Bora because I knew I was putting myself in a risky situation. But somehow we ended up standing together in front of the elevators. “Let’s go up to the bar at the top,” he suggested to me. I nodded. Once there, I ordered a plain Coke. He talked and talked. I don’t remember much. I do remember, as we later both stood waiting for the bell to signal my floor, that he leaned over and kissed me on top of my head. I mumbled a farewell as the doors opened and walked away.

Fast-forward to May 2012. I’d been recently hired by Nature Publishing Group to complete a graduate-level news writing internship in New York City. During his near-monthly visits to the same building for Scientific American, he visited me at my desk. After he finished talking to me once, my co-worker leaned over to me. “Was that your husband?” she asked me. “Oh, god, no!” I said.

I agreed to meet Bora for dinner in New York at some point in July 2012. While we sat in the restaurant, Bora looked around anxiously, as if NSA itself might be watching. I ordered one glass of wine. During conversation, I said: “You know, you stole that kiss from me at Yale in 2010. I did not ask you to kiss me.” Then, kicking myself for not saying that I felt also violated, I sat silently while he talked and we finished dinner. We walked outside. It was a balmy evening in the city. With the wine or with that city’s energy, I suddenly thought: Maybe this is a good thing. Maybe Bora does want to be my friend and I can learn, with him, to stand up to men in positions of power.

After a few moments of walking, Bora said to me, apropos of nothing: “I have not had sex with my wife for seven years.” Speechless, I walked on in silence. He described his frustration about this situation. After he stopped talking I said: “Are you suggesting that you’d like to have sex with me?!” He confirmed my worst fear. “Well, I’m sorry, but I am not interested in that. I’m happily married,” I said. He apologized and brushed it off.

We met several more times that summer. With each visit, my confidence and willingness to speak up withered. I left our meetings feeling crushed, confused, cowardly. He joked that he wished he could sneak into my apartment on the Upper West Side.

This past June, at the 8th World Conference of Science Journalists meeting in Helsinki, I participated on a panel with my incredibly talented fellow science journalists. Bora recruited all of us and organized the panel. On the night before the meeting began, he arrived to the official conference hotel late at night. “Which room are you in?” Bora texted before or soon after he entered the hotel. I sent him the room number where my husband and I stayed. “Can I come by and see you now?” he texted. “No, I’m afraid we have to wait until tomorrow morning. My husband is already in bed, sorry,” I texted back. A few moments later, I heard a knock at our door. I opened it expecting to see housekeeping staff. Bora stood there. He said, “Hi!!” and walked past me into our room. My husband sat shocked in our hotel bed. Bora grabbed me in an embrace, picked me up, swirled me around, and kissed me on the cheek. After a few minutes of small talk, he left.

This past August, I excitedly participated in a climate conference in Washington, D.C. Bora was also there. He stuck to my side like glue, or so it felt. Paranoid that people were glaring at me and wondering why he hung out with me, I tried to distance myself from him. One night after the conference we walked to a café to buy gelato. While sitting on steps in front of a building, Bora brought up the topic of sex with his wife again. I pleaded with him. “Actually, could you please not tell me any more about your wife without her permission?” And I added: “I do not want to hear about you and she having sex anymore.” He backed off, as he had done in past instances. “I’m sorry—I keep thinking that talking about it might help you,” he replied. “I don’t think it does,” I said.

There are many other examples, instances, encounters. And then there are the emails.

But it’s time that you see this side of Bora that I have seen. I want you to understand. This must stop.

For brevity and ease of reading, I have copied and pasted below a selection from numerous emails between Bora and I.

August 2, 2012: KATHLEEN WROTE: That you respect my limits and boundaries will make me all the more aware of yours. Now I have begun to relax and know that things are off to a fine start!

August 3, 2012: BORA’S REPLY: I likewise feel that the ‘dangerous’ moments have passed, and that we have a beginning of a wonderful friendship, having each other as confidants, enjoying each others company, enjoying intellectual discussions, sharing deepest secrets with complete trust, and yes, feeling safe to do flirty things with each other fully knowing it does not mean a breach of trust — just our little shared secret, little “speaking in code” that only you and I understand. So happy we resolved this like smart, civilized, mature people.

May 20, 2013: BORA’S REPLY: [an excerpt from a much longer email] …There’s no way in hell I can or could do anything like that with you. Not now. Not last year. You are a very different person. Catholic guilt, Southern childhood, personal history — for you probably everything physical is sexual and in a negative way. Both last year and before/after, if I kissed your lips or grabbed your ass, you’d have freaked out! I’d mean it in a totally friendly nonchalant kind of way — as a non-sexual act even at the time when I wanted you — but you’d understand it very differently. So I am glad that on the very first night (and then clarified once more later), our agreement also included these kinds of rules, where can lips and hands go or not go when we hug. Much better that way than me making a mistake at some point, losing your trust that way…
What I see here is the collision of two damaged people.

Note early on the writer goes on about the two glasses of wine, the empty stomach, feeling overwhelmed. You can sense her passing on having any agency. Maybe she was buzzed on two glasses of wine and an empty stomach, but you get the sense it was, to her, something that happened to her, rather than something she did. And apparently it colored the situation and everyone was supposed to, what, know she was two wine drunk? Apparently she was previously the victim, if we accept her history at face value, of some guy grooming her when she was 16. However, among his horrible transgression was noticing she missed a spot when shaving her legs.

On the other hand, Bora is simply off. Apparently he is either in an unhappy marriage or is some guy trying to get pity points by portraying it as such. I don't know if he is looking for hot weasel sex or is just a kind of feckless unhappy guy desperate for attention, affection and affirmation. Although I hate the whole "creepy guy" trope he is, well, kind of creepy. I don't know if that's from the language barrier, culture or just his being an awkward geek, but just as he's hanging on people like human fly-paper, back when he had the status, he was hung on himself.

There's musical chairs of mutual using going on, until one person breaks the clinch and wins by claiming they were used. A lot is being made of the power differential and there's something to that. Of course, it's exactly that power that made a jittering socially inept grease smear like Bora so interesting in the first place.

But if Bora is such an unhappy guy, as I think he is, that puts a new dimension on P.Z Myers demanding bottomless self-flagellation in the public square. He's lost a lot, and perhaps rightly so, but he hasn't lost everything. Yet. Maybe the Freethought Bullies, consciously or otherwise, want to see of they can up their sense of personal power by driving someone to stick a gun in his mouth.
If someone was bullied by them into blowing their head off, they would deny that it was their fault at all, as long as he is considered an enemy. I think Laden was hoping Griffin would do himself in, way back when they had that email fight.

They don't fight fair. We've seen them go after people's jobs many times, and I think if they could get away with it, they'd do many other truly harmful things to their 'enemies'.

Scented Nectar
.
.
Posts: 4969
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:45 am
Contact:

Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#404

Post by Scented Nectar »

zenbabe wrote:
Scented Nectar wrote: I smell a rat too. There is nothing in her claim saying that Bora held a job over her head to make her put out. And even though she first brought up sexual topics, she is retroactively upset that he continued along that vein. She admits that he didn't notice how she was feeling when she was hiding her discomfort, but did she bother to tell him? No. I guess he should have known by telepathy.
Those men!
Those silly men, am I right, Scented?
They don't know how to read our physical cues, which are so obvious to anyone with a brain unpoisoned by testostrone. My smiles, my laughs, my invites to lunch, my sociable and warm, friendly tone of voice, my introduction of sexual subjects, clearly indicate that I'm uncomfortable with the man's positive response. Duh.
Yes. That's it exactly! How can they not read our minds when our behaviour indicates a very different emotion? It's almost as though men don't have any women's intuition! Don't they know that when we keep saying yes and returning to hang around him, that we really mean "Back off, rapist!!!"? Why don't they get it? Why don't they understand that we women have no agency and must be protected from even polite interactions with men? No, wait, that can't be it... :lol:

zenbabe
.
.
Posts: 920
Joined: Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:51 pm
Contact:

Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#405

Post by zenbabe »

Mykeru wrote:Here's a long-form account of interactions with Bora Zivkovic:
My story begins in November 2010 at the National Association of Science Writers (NASW) conference in New Haven, Conn. As a graduate student in the Health and Medical Journalism master’s program at the University of Georgia, I was eager to get my name out to potential employers. On that Saturday evening, with conversations ricocheting off the walls of the Peabody Museum of Natural History, I felt overwhelmed. I drank two glasses of wine. A group of us stood outside later, waiting for cabs to take us to the restaurants. I ended up in a cab with Bora. On an empty stomach, and with the alcohol slowing down my cognition, I remember acting fascinated by Bora’s story of how he arrived in America. I asked question after question, as journalists do.
Know who else appears fascinated by you and asks question after question? Someone who's interested in you.
We arrived at the restaurant. We all ate.
.. and drank?
Were there additional drinks to layer over the two glasses of wine?
The restaurant check arrived. Bora pointed to me and another girl. “I’ll pay for theirs,” he told the waiter. If I recall, there were about six other women—and perhaps one other guy—sitting at our table.
"I'm quite attractive, btw"
After dinner, I made my way to the hotel lobby, anxious to get away from Bora because I knew I was putting myself in a risky situation. But somehow
Somehow.
Somehow she didn't have the ability to just go to her room, even though she's clearly wise and realizes that she's in a risky situation, somehow, she wound up going to a bar with him instead of finding sanctuary in her room.

Come see the threat implicit in the narrative!
Come see the threat implicit in the narrative!
You saw that, didn't you?
we ended up standing together in front of the elevators. “Let’s go up to the bar at the top,” he suggested to me. I nodded. Once there, I ordered a plain Coke. He talked and talked. I don’t remember much. I do remember, as we later both stood waiting for the bell to signal my floor, that he leaned over and kissed me on top of my head.
.. snip..
I agreed to meet Bora for dinner in New York at some point in July 2012. While we sat in the restaurant, Bora looked around anxiously, as if NSA itself might be watching. I ordered one glass of wine. During conversation, I said: “You know, you stole that kiss from me at Yale in 2010. I did not ask you to kiss me.”
Run Bora Run!!
No?
Well.. ok then.

That account is so painful to read. So self-serving.

Tony Parsehole
.
.
Posts: 6658
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:16 am
Location: Middlesbrough
Contact:

Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#406

Post by Tony Parsehole »

James Caruthers wrote:Oh and "creepy" is the word you throw at a guy when you don't have any specific criminal charges but still feel he deserves to be demonized in front of the crowd. "Creepy" often translates to "unattractive man with poor social skills" which, last I checked, was not a crime.
Nailed it.

zenbabe
.
.
Posts: 920
Joined: Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:51 pm
Contact:

Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#407

Post by zenbabe »

Scented Nectar wrote:
zenbabe wrote:
Those men!
Those silly men, am I right, Scented?
They don't know how to read our physical cues, which are so obvious to anyone with a brain unpoisoned by testostrone. My smiles, my laughs, my invites to lunch, my sociable and warm, friendly tone of voice, my introduction of sexual subjects, clearly indicate that I'm uncomfortable with the man's positive response. Duh.
Yes. That's it exactly! How can they not read our minds when our behaviour indicates a very different emotion? It's almost as though men don't have any women's intuition! Don't they know that when we keep saying yes and returning to hang around him, that we really mean "Back off, rapist!!!"? Why don't they get it? Why don't they understand that we women have no agency and must be protected from even polite interactions with men? No, wait, that can't be it... :lol:
:mrgreen:
Don't take this the wrong way, but I find you interesting and I wish, very much, that we could get together and enjoy a cup of crazy strong coffee and conversation. And admire the stark grey/white beauty of the Great North together. :romance-heartsmiley:

Tony Parsehole
.
.
Posts: 6658
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:16 am
Location: Middlesbrough
Contact:

Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#408

Post by Tony Parsehole »

Ape+lust wrote:Alas, Sedona is not to be. Not until they find another source of chump money for their Arizona road trip.
My heart bleeds for them.

KarlVonMox
.
.
Posts: 143
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2012 6:44 pm
Contact:

Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#409

Post by KarlVonMox »

Just checking in on the recent drama with the baboon brigade - I cant help but laugh at the overt stupidity of people like Bora, who are too dumb to realize that their perceived misfortunes are entirely self-imposed because they actually value the opinions of these hysterical idiots. Unless he ever wakes up, he is doomed to be their supplicating bitch for the rest of his days.

Incidentally, I remember when this event first took place it even made it to the editorial pages of the journal Nature, when a friend of mine pointed it out:
http://www.nature.com/news/end-harassment-1.13991

These people are good at making noise - but note how the details are kept intentionally vague, and the audience is expected to swallow everything on faith.

Tony Parsehole
.
.
Posts: 6658
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:16 am
Location: Middlesbrough
Contact:

Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#410

Post by Tony Parsehole »

Mykeru wrote: And apparently it colored the situation and everyone was supposed to, what, know she was two wine drunk?
This is where the whole "but she was drunk and couldn't consent!" argument takes a bit of a stumble. Fair enough, if a woman is slurring her speech, stumbling about and swinging her used-tampon around her head whenever her favourite song comes on then you can safely assume she's had a tad too much shandy. But what if she's not visibly drunk? How the fuck are you supposed to know how the other person is feeling? Asking straight out "are you pissed?" usually comes across as rude.

BarnOwl
.
.
Posts: 3311
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:18 pm
Location: The wrong trouser of Time
Contact:

Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#411

Post by BarnOwl »

Ape+lust wrote: Maybe he has a chance, since he's an older Serbian immigrant and likely didn't get the western special snowflake rearing.

Probably not though, because he just seems to be a nice guy and you know how much justice leaguers hate Nice Guys. It's time to quit being nice. This worldwide humiliation, with strangers (including me!) talking about him as if he's a critter in a zoo exhibit, is way out of proportion to anything he's done.
Agreed. And this episode, like so many others, exposes the dire consequences of that special snowflake rearing. Only those who play along and cater to the egos of the Chosen Ones will be accepted, in the New SJL World Order.

As an aside, amazing how PhysioDouche shows up immediately in the comments on Bora's unincorporated blog, to take several smelly dumps and play J'accuse. What an utter arsewad he is.

Lsuoma
Fascist Tit
Posts: 10932
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:58 pm
Location: Punggye-ri
Contact:

Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#412

Post by Lsuoma »

zenbabe wrote:
Scented Nectar wrote: That apology article was painful to read. Bora has bought into the cult's judgements against him, lock stock and barrel. He's apologizing every which way from whatever. And over what? He flirted with some women? OOOOOOooooooooooh, what a crime! What a terrible, harmful, horrible crime!!!!

Are the feminists all in Orwell's Junior Anti-Sex League? That's a rhetorical question. I already know the answer.

Well Bora, go lick their shoes until they've forgiven you for being human. And don't forget: Pretend, pretend, pretend. Pretend that you're the approved deepity/crazy-claim spouting robots that they are. Ugh. Bora, you are probably too far gone to save. I mean who, with any amount of self esteem, would go cry cry sorry sorry really sorry, at assholes who accuse you of a crime when you've not done anything wrong.

It's fucking pathetic seeing someone do that. The healthy response would have been "get lost, I've done nothing wrong". Fucking pathetic. Maybe he's got some sort of serious hating himself going on.
Sing it!
From the sounds of things, he's got a wincingly painful home life anyway. One of those situations which, I imagine, makes him susceptible to weakness.
Not so JUNIOR, I think...

Scented Nectar
.
.
Posts: 4969
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:45 am
Contact:

Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#413

Post by Scented Nectar »

zenbabe wrote:
Scented Nectar wrote:
zenbabe wrote:
Those men!
Those silly men, am I right, Scented?
They don't know how to read our physical cues, which are so obvious to anyone with a brain unpoisoned by testostrone. My smiles, my laughs, my invites to lunch, my sociable and warm, friendly tone of voice, my introduction of sexual subjects, clearly indicate that I'm uncomfortable with the man's positive response. Duh.
Yes. That's it exactly! How can they not read our minds when our behaviour indicates a very different emotion? It's almost as though men don't have any women's intuition! Don't they know that when we keep saying yes and returning to hang around him, that we really mean "Back off, rapist!!!"? Why don't they get it? Why don't they understand that we women have no agency and must be protected from even polite interactions with men? No, wait, that can't be it... :lol:
:mrgreen:
Don't take this the wrong way, but I find you interesting and I wish, very much, that we could get together and enjoy a cup of crazy strong coffee and conversation. And admire the stark grey/white beauty of the Great North together. :romance-heartsmiley:
Ok, but a few weeks or years later, we will have to accuse each other of attempted rape. :lol:

Scented Nectar
.
.
Posts: 4969
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:45 am
Contact:

Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#414

Post by Scented Nectar »

Lsuoma wrote:
zenbabe wrote:
Scented Nectar wrote: That apology article was painful to read. Bora has bought into the cult's judgements against him, lock stock and barrel. He's apologizing every which way from whatever. And over what? He flirted with some women? OOOOOOooooooooooh, what a crime! What a terrible, harmful, horrible crime!!!!

Are the feminists all in Orwell's Junior Anti-Sex League? That's a rhetorical question. I already know the answer.

Well Bora, go lick their shoes until they've forgiven you for being human. And don't forget: Pretend, pretend, pretend. Pretend that you're the approved deepity/crazy-claim spouting robots that they are. Ugh. Bora, you are probably too far gone to save. I mean who, with any amount of self esteem, would go cry cry sorry sorry really sorry, at assholes who accuse you of a crime when you've not done anything wrong.

It's fucking pathetic seeing someone do that. The healthy response would have been "get lost, I've done nothing wrong". Fucking pathetic. Maybe he's got some sort of serious hating himself going on.
Sing it!
From the sounds of things, he's got a wincingly painful home life anyway. One of those situations which, I imagine, makes him susceptible to weakness.
Not so JUNIOR, I think...
Yeah but, musty old-but-immature basement virgins was too long to write. :)

zenbabe
.
.
Posts: 920
Joined: Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:51 pm
Contact:

Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#415

Post by zenbabe »

Scented Nectar wrote:
zenbabe wrote: :mrgreen:
Don't take this the wrong way, but I find you interesting and I wish, very much, that we could get together and enjoy a cup of crazy strong coffee and conversation. And admire the stark grey/white beauty of the Great North together. :romance-heartsmiley:
Ok, but a few weeks or years later, we will have to accuse each other of attempted rape. :lol:
Ha!
Deal :D

Dobby
.
.
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:31 pm
Contact:

Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#416

Post by Dobby »

Chris Clarke (on the Bora apology blog post):

Room for forgiveness? Sure. The expectation that forgiveness is owed if the offender goes through a certain prescribed series of steps? No, that’s not how it works. Forgiveness is there for the benefit of the person who has grievances, not for the person who caused harm.

What does it say about us, M., to suggest our motivation for change has to stem from wanting to be let off the hook rather than refraining from causing further harm?

http://blog.coturnix.org/2014/01/01/201 ... ment-28124
This is a major part of the problem with the SJL. Who the fuck is Chris Clarke to accept/reject apologies on behalf of the actual "aggrieved" parties in this episode? What's more, Chris is demanding that Bora personally apologize to every SJW - however remotely related to this incident. Which is obviously bullshit.

It reminds me of the Tiger Woods "scandal." I'm not sure if it works this way in other countries, but for those who've forgotten (or didn't know), Tiger Woods cheated on his wife and was then expected to make an apology to every person on earth. Even if I was his biggest fanboy, I wouldn't expect an apology from the guy. But this is a nation of narcissists, where every individual's hurt fee-fees must be acknowledged!

Ape+lust
Pit Art Master
Pit Art Master
Posts: 7364
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:55 pm
Contact:

Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#417

Post by Ape+lust »

zenbabe wrote:
Scented Nectar wrote:
zenbabe wrote: :mrgreen:
Don't take this the wrong way, but I find you interesting and I wish, very much, that we could get together and enjoy a cup of crazy strong coffee and conversation. And admire the stark grey/white beauty of the Great North together. :romance-heartsmiley:
Ok, but a few weeks or years later, we will have to accuse each other of attempted rape. :lol:
Ha!
Deal :D
:shock:
http://imgur.com/Wrx90Ze.jpg

zenbabe
.
.
Posts: 920
Joined: Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:51 pm
Contact:

Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#418

Post by zenbabe »

Ape+Lust

:D

Southern
.
.
Posts: 3464
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:28 pm
Location: Rio Grande do Sul, Brazil
Contact:

Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#419

Post by Southern »

Dobby wrote:
Chris Clarke (on the Bora apology blog post):

Room for forgiveness? Sure. The expectation that forgiveness is owed if the offender goes through a certain prescribed series of steps? No, that’s not how it works. Forgiveness is there for the benefit of the person who has grievances, not for the person who caused harm.

What does it say about us, M., to suggest our motivation for change has to stem from wanting to be let off the hook rather than refraining from causing further harm?

http://blog.coturnix.org/2014/01/01/201 ... ment-28124
This is a major part of the problem with the SJL. Who the fuck is Chris Clarke to accept/reject apologies on behalf of the actual "aggrieved" parties in this episode? What's more, Chris is demanding that Bora personally apologize to every SJW - however remotely related to this incident. Which is obviously bullshit.

It reminds me of the Tiger Woods "scandal." I'm not sure if it works this way in other countries, but for those who've forgotten (or didn't know), Tiger Woods cheated on his wife and was then expected to make an apology to every person on earth. Even if I was his biggest fanboy, I wouldn't expect an apology from the guy. But this is a nation of narcissists, where every individual's hurt fee-fees must be acknowledged!
Chris Clarke is, in fact, a privileged white male fat fucker. So he should shut up and listen.

Mykeru
.
.
Posts: 4758
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:52 am
Contact:

Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#420

Post by Mykeru »

Dobby wrote:
This is a major part of the problem with the SJL. Who the fuck is Chris Clarke to accept/reject apologies on behalf of the actual "aggrieved" parties in this episode? What's more, Chris is demanding that Bora personally apologize to every SJW - however remotely related to this incident. Which is obviously bullshit.
The important thing isn't contrition on the part of the "guilty" party. This is all about the moral dog-piling. As soon as a witch is taken down (so they imagine) by the bigguns, all the little shits have to line up to make sure they get brave little head kicks in on the unconscious body. Otherwise, who will sing their praises in the Social Justice Great Hall?

Locked