Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

Old subthreads
mordacious1
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#14581

Post by mordacious1 »

Ahhh....St. Patrick's day! Always a conundrum. The part of me that is Irish wants to celebrate and get drunk, the Scott in me doesn't want to pay for it.

katamari Damassi
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#14582

Post by katamari Damassi »

Mykeru wrote:
katamari Damassi wrote:Mykeru- the mid-century kitsch is the appeal for me. Love of kitsch is something of a gay thing. If I could live in Roger Sterlings office on Mad Men, I'd be a happy homo.

Oh, here's a picture of my writing desk for your beating-off pleasure:
crop IMG_1089.JPG
Love the desk lamp and the manual typewriter , but it takes a kidney shaped coffee table to get me off.

katamari Damassi
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#14583

Post by katamari Damassi »

Guestus Aurelius wrote:
Mykeru wrote:
Guestus Aurelius wrote:Mykeru, have you been to the Victrola Museum in Dover, DE?
No, because I didn't know there was one. That's definitely on my list. Along with the National Firearms Museum in Fairfax, VA. Looks interesting enough from their YT videos that I'll hold my nose over their being NRA.

[youtube]XKe0weSyIjU[/youtube]
The Victrola Museum is worth a visit. In addition to the machines themselves (and the original "His Master's Voice" painting), the Museum has a very large collection of old discs/cylinders—many of which were never re-issued on later media—and at your request they'll bring one out for you to hear. I didn't know that before I went, so I didn't have any requests to make. Point is, if you go, you should have a few records in mind that you'd like to hear. Not sure if they have a database online somewhere that lists what's in their collection.

Dover sucks, though.
I want to visit the screen door factory!

Steersman
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#14584

Post by Steersman »

Pitchguest wrote:I wrote a comment on Brianne Bilyeu's article about abortion. Let's see how long it stays that way.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/biodork/201 ... ent-407339
Most of the people who camp outside abortion clinics with placards… are other women. Misogynist? I think not.
<snip>
Unless you think people having a different opinion on abortion implies they want to be able to dictate your life, to which I would say: it’s debatable.
Not very long as it turns out. Seems she has OD’d on the “Feminist” Kool-Aid and deleted all of our comments. Nothing says “narrow-minded bigot” like putting one’s fingers in one’s ears and saying “Nyah, nyah, can’t hear you.” In any case my first comment to her for posterity:
Steersman wrote:
We must respect an individual’s right to do with their body as they will.
Really? Like if they want rape and murder and pillage too? Obviously not, but as a skeptic, presumably, you might want to consider that making categorical statements tends to paint oneself into a corner real quick. In addition, I might point out that a fetus is a genetically different and distinct entity with an entirely different genome from that of the mother – seems rather more than just a wart.

But, more to the point, while I certainly wouldn’t argue that abortion should be made illegal as that seems a cure very much worse than the disease, I would say it doesn’t take a lot of thought to come up with cases which raise serious questions about the viability of the “bodily autonomy” defense. For instance, the Selective Service System, with the laws and mechanisms in place to enforce a military draft of men should the need arise, is case with at least the potential to abrogate the “bodily autonomy” of men and to force them into “harm’s way”. And if that potential exists for men then why should that same “principle” not be potentially applicable to women through the obligation to carry their fetuses to term? And presumably for the same reason: for the greater glory of Man and God and the Protection of the American Way of Life. So to speak.

While it is, of course, unlikely that that case would ever arise as there seems no shortage of those willing to step into that breach, if not for love then for money, the potential situation does suggest that the “bodily autonomy” principle is a bit of a weak reed to be putting all that much faith in.

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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#14585

Post by Steersman »

Pitchguest wrote:I wrote a comment on Brianne Bilyeu's article about abortion. Let's see how long it stays that way.
http://freethoughtblogs.com/biodork/201 ... ent-407339
<snip>
And, FWIW, a second comment of mine which only briefly saw the light of day there:
Steersman wrote:Gen (#7):
Oh, and a bonus shift of the topic ...
Not really. Brianne very clearly said, at the outset, that “anti-bodily autonomy arguments are bullshit”. Just offering a case that suggests that that really doesn’t hold a lot of water.
... ignoring the reality that a.) women want to serve in the military and b.) there hasn’t been a draft for decades in the US and c.) those who are pro choice for reproductive health are also generally pro choice in terms of military service ...
Which means absolutely diddly squat. Because you’re ignoring the reality that a) it isn’t a question of serving but of being forced to serve, or, analogously, being forced to carry a fetus to term; b) the laws are still on the books, hanging like the proverbial Sword of Damocles over the heads of all men between the ages of 18 and 25; and c) choice isn’t the issue but that coercion is an option that societies retain should there be overriding justifications for its use.
... as you were told in other abortion threads before but now choose to ignore as if it was never said ...
And because someone else said something along that line I’m supposed to turn turtle and slink out the door with my tail between my legs? Don’t think so – I saw no credible argument that would justify anything even remotely close to that.
... to make it about the men, in at number 5.
Christ. What is it with many “feminists” and analogies? Too much “thinky work” involved? It has less to do with men than with the “principle” of the extent to which societies have the “right” to abrogate the bodily autonomy of its citizens. If you want to have a debate on that point then fine, although one might suggest that our whole legal system is largely predicated on the fact that we are not entirely autonomous (1: not controlled by others or by outside forces) to a greater or lesser extent depending on the circumstances. Should you wish to prepare yourself for that debate you might note the following from Wikipedia (2):
"Hand is to palm as foot is to sole”
---
It's important to note that the above analogy is not comparing all the properties between a hand and a foot, but rather comparing the <b>relationship</b> between a hand and its palm to a foot and its sole. While a hand and a foot have many dissimilarities, the analogy is focusing on their similarity in having an inner surface.
Not to put too fine a point on it for you, the main similarity, while largely potential or hypothetical, is in the abrogation of bodily autonomy with potentially serious consequences in each case.

----
1) “_http://www.thefreedictionary.com/autonomous”;
2) “_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analogy#Identity_of_relation”;

Bourne Skeptic
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#14586

Post by Bourne Skeptic »

mordacious1 wrote:Ahhh....St. Patrick's day! Always a conundrum. The part of me that is Irish wants to celebrate and get drunk, the Scott in me doesn't want to pay for it.
No true Scotsman would ever spell Scot with two t's.

Matt Cavanaugh
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#14587

Post by Matt Cavanaugh »

welch wrote:
Brive1987 wrote:If you thought Strawkins or Steers could screw with your brain ... This was a para from that aviation newsgroup:
I think the 'Minimum Speed' is it's Minimum 'Clean' Speed Vref30+80 on the B757 & 767. 'Maximum Speed' would be Mmo (Max. Mach Operating no.). Quite a mileage difference over 7 hours between M0.78 (e.g) & M0.86 (e.g)

Can any B777 Pilots on here suggested a Range/ Endrance improvement figure for flying at Cost Index 0 in ECON?
Aviation can out-jargon anyone.
That's all Greek to me. But I'd like to note that the Pugachev Cobra is not a true Immelman.

John D
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#14588

Post by John D »

Bourne Skeptic wrote:
mordacious1 wrote:Ahhh....St. Patrick's day! Always a conundrum. The part of me that is Irish wants to celebrate and get drunk, the Scott in me doesn't want to pay for it.
No true Scotsman would ever spell Scot with two t's.
No no.... he is talking about the dood named Scott who will not pay for ANYTHING while he is engaged in anal sex!

Ericb
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#14589

Post by Ericb »

Bourne Skeptic wrote:
mordacious1 wrote:Ahhh....St. Patrick's day! Always a conundrum. The part of me that is Irish wants to celebrate and get drunk, the Scott in me doesn't want to pay for it.
No true Scotsman would ever spell Scot with two t's.
Maybe he's having drunken anal sex with a fellow named Scott who won't buy him drinks?

another lurker
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#14590

Post by another lurker »

@Steersman

We don't have any rights, really, do we? We only have what the government grants us. So really, there is no human right to anything, as rights can be arbitrarily granted and denied by government. Therefore, any argument for, or against abortion, is automatically invalid!

[youtube]gaa9iw85tW8[/youtube]

Matt Cavanaugh
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#14591

Post by Matt Cavanaugh »

another lurker wrote:What will happen if the # of conceptions eventually exceeds the number of people willing to adopt? Will we have massive warehouses full of babies that nobody wants?
One could always raise an army of Unsullied.

Matt Cavanaugh
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#14592

Post by Matt Cavanaugh »

katamari Damassi wrote:I want to visit the screen door factory!
If you're ever in Philadelphia, go see the factory where they make the cheese.

another lurker
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#14593

Post by another lurker »

Oh, and if the government can ban abortion, the government can also force abortions "for the good of the nation". Heck, the government can even forcibly sterilize people, for the common good, of course. And all of the above are a violation of bodily autonomy.

The question being, should the government be making reproductive choices for people? It works both ways.

Matt Cavanaugh
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#14594

Post by Matt Cavanaugh »

And then there's the Canal Museum in Easton, PA. Where vandals are always stealing the "C" from the sign.

Matt Cavanaugh
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#14595

Post by Matt Cavanaugh »

another lurker wrote:Oh, and if the government can ban abortion, the government can also force abortions "for the good of the nation". Heck, the government can even forcibly sterilize people, for the common good, of course. And all of the above are a violation of bodily autonomy.

The question being, should the government be making reproductive choices for people? It works both ways.
Peezus was right! The Slymepit is a den of libertarianism. :o

TiBo
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#14596

Post by TiBo »

John D wrote:Artificial wombs???? I am not paying for that! It is expensive enough already with my insurance company paying millions of dollars to save premature babies with gobs of expensive birth defects. I don't think we are quite ready for "Brave New World".
It's inevitable in the long run, because the economic efficiency of such a process (especially when combined with methods of correcting/eliminating inferior genetic traits) will quickly silence any ethical theatre in public discourse. If our own politicians won't allow it, others will. There is no way to prevent this.

Matt Cavanaugh
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#14597

Post by Matt Cavanaugh »

Lsuoma wrote:
Really? wrote:
[youtube]9wbTX49padE[/youtube]
I'll say it again. Possibly the most annoying voice ever.
Now my ears are bleeding.

I actually briefly dated a gal with a voice like that. She did have a nice collection of body parts, though.

TiBo
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#14598

Post by TiBo »

another lurker wrote:The question being, should the government be making reproductive choices for people? It works both ways.
Depends entirely on how the trade-off would look like, reads: What benefits would parents/children receive for letting the state have a say in these affairs?

(BTW: Why exactly is there no working edit button?)

Stretchycheese
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#14599

Post by Stretchycheese »

zenbabe wrote:
Skep tickle wrote:From the comment thread at Zvan's "You made your bed, now burn in it" from a couple of days ago:
http://i.imgur.com/JRPbFyO.png?1

Go for it, Stephanie Zvan. Tweet your little whistle and light your little powder keg and test out your self-obsessed pretense that your self-important patrolling is all that's keeping the atheist/skeptic movement from complete and utter destruction.

Let's see you unleash the force of anger of atheist womanhood and cause the atheist-skeptic movement to come crashing down, like you're threatening. I double dog dare you.

And I don't mean picking on more individuals, trying to interfere in their lives or hold them up for ridicule, like you've done to so many people. I mean, make good on your threat in your comment from your blog, copied above. Go for it.

snip

Doctor Tickle, it's particularly satisfying when you call Svan on her pompous self important witch hunting assholery.
She's such an Orwellian power hungry prick, a thug, a bully, a nearly illiterate nightmare, plus she had a hand in doxxing you, that when you skewer her it's just so very mmm mmm good to read. :D

As to her and PZ's argument (if I understand it correctly) that feminist and atheist females must face an abortion, regardless of stage of pregnancy, with as much moral angst as that involved in dyeing locks of hair purple, I hardly know what to say, except that it exposes a void in their capacity to feel or express compassion. They seem incapable of nuanced thought or emotions.
Wow, I just came across this. Typical FTB demagoguery.
This definitely calls for some satirical. Perhaps a dramatic reading along with a "Big Sister Watching You!" telescreen visual. Gefan? Jan? Mykeru?

Wild Zontargs
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#14600

Post by Wild Zontargs »

Social Justice bronies shit all over the other bronies: a case study.

[youtube]-d4Rq-_6IGM[/youtube]

This eat-your-own SJW shit is everywhere. Good lord.

James Caruthers
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#14601

Post by James Caruthers »

another lurker wrote:From what I have read, in many post-viability abortions, the prenate is removed through either c-section or induced labour. In certain cases, such as medical emergency, it will have to be removed in pieces. Abortion is technically 'the termination of a pregnancy'. The point is to remove it, not kill it. It just happens that the pre-viability prenate dies because it can't survive without another person's body performing all of it's life functions for it.

Which brings up another question that I have seen bandied about here and there. What if/when artificial wombs are created? Should every uwnanted embryo be removed intact and placed into such a device? What will happen if the # of conceptions eventually exceeds the number of people willing to adopt? Will we have massive warehouses full of babies that nobody wants?
We already do. We just don't keep them in warehouses, but thanks for the pro tip there.

Matt Cavanaugh
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#14602

Post by Matt Cavanaugh »

Pitchguest wrote:I wrote a comment on Brianne Bilyeu's article about abortion. Let's see how long it stays that way.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/biodork/201 ... ent-407339
Most of the people who camp outside abortion clinics with placards… are other women. Misogynist? I think not.

When we say ‘it’s debatable’, it means there are other perspectives to consider. They may not be good, or even reasonable, but they’re there and the point of a debate is not necessarily to come to a common ground but to make your points heard and to refute those points, if possible. Which is why we have debates about religion, science, the occult, aliens, etc, etc, etc. Yeah, you can say ‘there is nothing to debate’ but to declare for other people ‘there is nothing to debate’ and if they disagree with you they’re horrible people? Then it’s no longer people having their own opinions and you either agree or disagree, it’s people having their own opinions and you attempting to shut down that opinion.

Why did Richard Dawkins spend time and effort to write the God Delusion? He could just have published with one page and on that page it would say ‘there is nothing to debate. The end.’ Why did Christopher Hitchens go beyond the call of duty to disprove religion? There is nothing to debate. Why do scientists write long and resourceful articles about the importance of vaccination, real medicine, and so on? There is nothing to debate. Should I go on?

There are those for, and there are those against. So what? You can be against or averse to abortion but still be for legislation that abortion be legal and available to women who needs it. You can be a Christian but still be for legislation that church be seperated from the state. There’s the only reason I could see this becoming problematic, if they were debating it in terms of legislation. But I don’t see the problem when it’s in terms of opinion. Unless you think people having a different opinion on abortion implies they want to be able to dictate your life, to which I would say: it’s debatable.
QFT.

The argument against abortion is: it's murder. 'Personal body autonomy' can't trump that. The key is to disprove the argument that a fetus = a person, 'life' begins at conception, etc. This can be done surprisingly easily, yet the feminists refuse to even engage. That's dumb, and they're losing the public debate as a result.

James Caruthers
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#14603

Post by James Caruthers »

mordacious1 wrote:Ahhh....St. Patrick's day! Always a conundrum. The part of me that is Irish wants to celebrate and get drunk, the Scott in me doesn't want to pay for it.
Are you a womyn? Problem solved.

Matt Cavanaugh
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#14604

Post by Matt Cavanaugh »

James Caruthers wrote:I prefer Evan Williams, myself.
Fucking Elixir of the Gods!

another lurker
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#14605

Post by another lurker »

James Caruthers wrote:
another lurker wrote:From what I have read, in many post-viability abortions, the prenate is removed through either c-section or induced labour. In certain cases, such as medical emergency, it will have to be removed in pieces. Abortion is technically 'the termination of a pregnancy'. The point is to remove it, not kill it. It just happens that the pre-viability prenate dies because it can't survive without another person's body performing all of it's life functions for it.

Which brings up another question that I have seen bandied about here and there. What if/when artificial wombs are created? Should every uwnanted embryo be removed intact and placed into such a device? What will happen if the # of conceptions eventually exceeds the number of people willing to adopt? Will we have massive warehouses full of babies that nobody wants?
We already do. We just don't keep them in warehouses, but thanks for the pro tip there.
i meant like, in the matrix! And if artificial wombs ever do exist, there will be buildings full of them, and there will, eventually, be millions of babies coming off the assembly line. And there won't be enough people to adopt, because supply will exceed demand.

Anyways, in all seriousness, most people want healthy white babies. A white baby can cost up to 60k, whereas a black baby can cost 20k - because they are simply not as adoptable. The same goes for the severely disabled - who spend their lives sitting in their own shit in care homes. Makes me sad. People also don't want older kids - they want babies.

another lurker
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#14606

Post by another lurker »

Matt Cavanaugh wrote: QFT.

The argument against abortion is: it's murder. 'Personal body autonomy' can't trump that. The key is to disprove the argument that a fetus = a person, 'life' begins at conception, etc. This can be done surprisingly easily, yet the feminists refuse to even engage. That's dumb, and they're losing the public debate as a result.

I do a combo of bodily autonomy + fetus isn't a person. If we wouldn't violate your bodily autonomy to save a life (or your born child's life) why do it for something that is non-sentient and non-sapient?

It's still amazing though, how many people seem to believe that every single conceptus is a tiny homunculus that simply needs to grow bigger with food and love! Actually, one dumb bitch even told me that Plan B was murder because the innocent widdle blastocyst would be starved to death:((

rayshul
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#14607

Post by rayshul »

Phelps and his family of lawyers did some excellent work against racism/segregation earlier on in his career. From what I remember, dude did more good in his lifetime than I'm likely to, TBH.

katamari Damassi
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#14608

Post by katamari Damassi »

Really? wrote:

YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWNNNNN...
my current favorite:

[youtube]QtlhTOijPgg[/youtube]

mordacious1
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#14609

Post by mordacious1 »

Bourne Skeptic wrote:
mordacious1 wrote:Ahhh....St. Patrick's day! Always a conundrum. The part of me that is Irish wants to celebrate and get drunk, the Scott in me doesn't want to pay for it.
No true Scotsman would ever spell Scot with two t's.
It was a typo, I can't type on my new smart phone, my tux didn't come back from the cleaners, I gouged my eyes out after seeing that picture of PZ swimming, there was a plague, locusts...I swear to god it wasn't my fault!

rayshul
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#14610

Post by rayshul »

Guestus Aurelius wrote:
Dick Strawkins wrote: The bodily autonomy argument - which states that a womans right to decide what to do with her body trumps all other rights (such as the right of the fetus to be supported by the woman's body) - runs into problems regarding the mechanism of termination - for the simple reason that removing a late stage fetus from the womb of it's mother does not necessitate killing it.
I'm something of a bodily autonomy "absolutist," and I agree with you. That is the one argument I've made to myself that "escapes" the bodily autonomy principle I hold so dear. My thinking has tended to be of the "even if the fetus is fully sentient and writing novels in there, one person should not have the right to use the organs of a second person against the second person's will" variety. But unless the fetus is defined as a "part" of the mother's body,* I run up against the problem that the right of the mother to no longer share her organs doesn't equate to the right of the mother to kill the fetus. Remove it, yes, but the viability issue is still an obstacle, exactly as you say.

*and perhaps defining the fetus as a "part" of the mother's body (strictly legally, I mean) is something for society to consider doing
Yeah, I don't think you should have the right to use the organs of a second person. So while it might make me feel uncomfortable to think of, I still can't see that one person's rights trumps the other. I think Peter Singer(s?) did some writing about this. Unless Peter Singers is the name of the guy from Family Guy.

I've had quite a lot of experience (thanks to my twins being shit) of babies born at the very limits of viability. It's all a bit generally fucky.

katamari Damassi
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#14611

Post by katamari Damassi »

Matt Cavanaugh wrote:
katamari Damassi wrote:I want to visit the screen door factory!
If you're ever in Philadelphia, go see the factory where they make the cheese.
Philadelphia Cream Cheese? I just might. Love the stuff.

My post was a very old Simpson's reference.

rayshul
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#14612

Post by rayshul »

John D wrote:
another lurker wrote:Which brings up another question that I have seen bandied about here and there. What if/when artificial wombs are created? Should every uwnanted embryo be removed intact and placed into such a device? What will happen if the # of conceptions eventually exceeds the number of people willing to adopt? Will we have massive warehouses full of babies that nobody wants?
Artificial wombs???? I am not paying for that! It is expensive enough already with my insurance company paying millions of dollars to save premature babies with gobs of expensive birth defects. I don't think we are quite ready for "Brave New World".
I'd be up for artificial wombs.

jimthepleb
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#14613

Post by jimthepleb »

another lurker wrote:
James Caruthers wrote:
another lurker wrote:From what I have read, in many post-viability abortions, the prenate is removed through either c-section or induced labour. In certain cases, such as medical emergency, it will have to be removed in pieces. Abortion is technically 'the termination of a pregnancy'. The point is to remove it, not kill it. It just happens that the pre-viability prenate dies because it can't survive without another person's body performing all of it's life functions for it.

Which brings up another question that I have seen bandied about here and there. What if/when artificial wombs are created? Should every uwnanted embryo be removed intact and placed into such a device? What will happen if the # of conceptions eventually exceeds the number of people willing to adopt? Will we have massive warehouses full of babies that nobody wants?
We already do. We just don't keep them in warehouses, but thanks for the pro tip there.
i meant like, in the matrix! And if artificial wombs ever do exist, there will be buildings full of them, and there will, eventually, be millions of babies coming off the assembly line. And there won't be enough people to adopt, because supply will exceed demand.

Anyways, in all seriousness, most people want healthy white babies. A white baby can cost up to 60k, whereas a black baby can cost 20k - because they are simply not as adoptable. The same goes for the severely disabled - who spend their lives sitting in their own shit in care homes. Makes me sad. People also don't want older kids - they want babies.
I can't believe this would be an issue to atheists....Fire up the barbecue!

Mykeru
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#14614

Post by Mykeru »

Guestus Aurelius wrote:
Mykeru wrote:
Guestus Aurelius wrote:Mykeru, have you been to the Victrola Museum in Dover, DE?
No, because I didn't know there was one. That's definitely on my list. Along with the National Firearms Museum in Fairfax, VA. Looks interesting enough from their YT videos that I'll hold my nose over their being NRA.

[bathtub]XKe0weSyIjU[/bathtub]
The Victrola Museum is worth a visit. In addition to the machines themselves (and the original "His Master's Voice" painting), the Museum has a very large collection of old discs/cylinders—many of which were never re-issued on later media—and at your request they'll bring one out for you to hear. I didn't know that before I went, so I didn't have any requests to make. Point is, if you go, you should have a few records in mind that you'd like to hear. Not sure if they have a database online somewhere that lists what's in their collection.

Dover sucks, though.

You know what the holy grail is for me: A recording of Geeshie Wiley's Last Kind Word Blues:


[youtube]qIsbDzMRTf0[/youtube]

katamari Damassi
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#14615

Post by katamari Damassi »

rayshul wrote:
Guestus Aurelius wrote:
Dick Strawkins wrote: The bodily autonomy argument - which states that a womans right to decide what to do with her body trumps all other rights (such as the right of the fetus to be supported by the woman's body) - runs into problems regarding the mechanism of termination - for the simple reason that removing a late stage fetus from the womb of it's mother does not necessitate killing it.
I'm something of a bodily autonomy "absolutist," and I agree with you. That is the one argument I've made to myself that "escapes" the bodily autonomy principle I hold so dear. My thinking has tended to be of the "even if the fetus is fully sentient and writing novels in there, one person should not have the right to use the organs of a second person against the second person's will" variety. But unless the fetus is defined as a "part" of the mother's body,* I run up against the problem that the right of the mother to no longer share her organs doesn't equate to the right of the mother to kill the fetus. Remove it, yes, but the viability issue is still an obstacle, exactly as you say.

*and perhaps defining the fetus as a "part" of the mother's body (strictly legally, I mean) is something for society to consider doing
Yeah, I don't think you should have the right to use the organs of a second person. So while it might make me feel uncomfortable to think of, I still can't see that one person's rights trumps the other. I think Peter Singer(s?) did some writing about this. Unless Peter Singers is the name of the guy from Family Guy.
I've had quite a lot of experience (thanks to my twins being shit) of babies born at the very limits of viability. It's all a bit generally fucky.
Peter Singer also thinks that infanticide is not the equivalent of homicide. I consider myself an utilitarian and often agree with Singer but I have major issues with him on this and his "animal rights" work.

My problem with the fracas over abortion in the atheist community is that the feminists are arguing in the same way that they would against religious anti-choice advocates. Most of them-despite their proclamations of being motivated to save innocent lives-are really just fighting against consequence free sex. The atheists who are discussing this issue have sincere philosophical questions that they would like to figure out. Being anti-choice is a deal breaker for me when it comes to politicians I would vote for or would contribute to, but I can still be friends with people who think abortion is wrong-unless they're monomaniacal about it.

spiffigt
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#14616

Post by spiffigt »

Julie Horvath quitting GitHub is making its round on slashdot.
http://developers.slashdot.org/story/14 ... arrassment

Since it is slashdot, nothing really comes of the discussion, but there are a few tech insiders that are less than impressed with her skill as an engineer FWIW.

Lsuoma
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#14617

Post by Lsuoma »

Bourne Skeptic wrote:
mordacious1 wrote:Ahhh....St. Patrick's day! Always a conundrum. The part of me that is Irish wants to celebrate and get drunk, the Scott in me doesn't want to pay for it.
No true Scotsman would ever spell Scot with two t's.
What about this guy?

Lsuoma
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#14618

Post by Lsuoma »

rayshul wrote:
John D wrote:
another lurker wrote:Which brings up another question that I have seen bandied about here and there. What if/when artificial wombs are created? Should every uwnanted embryo be removed intact and placed into such a device? What will happen if the # of conceptions eventually exceeds the number of people willing to adopt? Will we have massive warehouses full of babies that nobody wants?
Artificial wombs???? I am not paying for that! It is expensive enough already with my insurance company paying millions of dollars to save premature babies with gobs of expensive birth defects. I don't think we are quite ready for "Brave New World".
I'd be up for artificial wombs.
They call them boxes.

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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#14619

Post by Lsuoma »

Mykeru wrote:

You know what the holy grail is for me: A recording of Geeshie Wiley's Last Kind Word Blues:


[youtube]qIsbDzMRTf0[/youtube]
If you haven't already, grab a copy of Searching for the Wrong-Eyed Jesus. There's a pretty good version of that by David Johansson.

But not as good as the Geeshie Wiley version, of course...

Steersman
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#14620

Post by Steersman »

rayshul wrote:Phelps and his family of lawyers did some excellent work against racism/segregation earlier on in his career. From what I remember, dude did more good in his lifetime than I'm likely to, TBH.
Interesting. Might be worth looking into. Part of the reason why I tend to be a bit skeptical of categorical statements, a little circumspect about judging too quickly.

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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#14621

Post by Za-zen »

I have a radical idea, as to how to deal with the abortion issue. Stop getting fucking pregnant, if you don't want a fucking child. Wild idea i know, because it actually carries a measure of personal responsibility, something the children we label as adults in modern society recoil in horror from.

Will this radical idea eliminate unwanted pregnancy, and therefore the potential need for abortion. No absolutely not, the debate of course consists and requires far more nuance, i absolutely accept that. Therefore an ethical position has to be taken in the cases where unwanted pregnancies occur.

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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#14622

Post by Steersman »

another lurker wrote:@Steersman

We don't have any rights, really, do we? We only have what the government grants us. So really, there is no human right to anything, as rights can be arbitrarily granted and denied by government. Therefore, any argument for, or against abortion, is automatically invalid!

[.youtube]gaa9iw85tW8[/youtube]
“Rights: cute and fictional” :lol:

Although one might argue that, ideally at least, "we" are the government and like "the Lord", giveth and taketh away. But yeah, bit of a thorny question on rights and privileges. One can sort of sympathize with the U.S. Declaration of Independence, although as Carlin pointed out many countries seem to have gotten different memos from Jehovah:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
Curious though how so many talk of “rights” and so few talk of responsibilities. As you may know, our erstwhile leader of the Liberals, Michael Ignatieff, did a series of CBC lectures and wrote a book on The Rights Revolution which addressed that issue in some detail – have the book but never finished reading it. But a sampler on the issue:
Rights are also there to help us to resolve our conflicts with our fellow citizens. These rights give us entitlements, but they also simultaneously exercise a constraint: we’re not allowed to solve our disputes by force or fraud. .... This teaches us that every right entails an obligation. .... The reciprocal character of rights is what makes them social. It is what makes it possible for rights to create community. [pgs 31-32]

A state whose child-protection agencies fail to pin responsibility on defaulting parents, and whose welfare institutions then mutely step in to cope with the consequences, is undermining the link between rights and responsibilities that makes a rights culture consistent with public order. On this issue, a liberal and conservative will see eye to eye. [pgs 101-102]
But somewhat apropos, I see that Benson recently had a post on a “review-article in The New Republic” by Ignatieff on the Danes, the Nazis and the Holocaust. But what is somewhat amusing and ironic is that she seems rather unclear on a number of concepts and gives every indication of being a bit of a fascist or totalitarian herself. Politics, strange bedfellows and all that.

another lurker
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#14623

Post by another lurker »

Even Steers is less wooden than Michael Ignatieff :PP

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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#14624

Post by Steersman »

another lurker wrote:Even Steers is less wooden than Michael Ignatieff :PP
:lol: Maybe that was who I've used as my role model, at least in part? .... ;-)

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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#14625

Post by JacquesCuze »

spiffigt wrote:Julie Horvath quitting GitHub is making its round on slashdot.
http://developers.slashdot.org/story/14 ... arrassment

Since it is slashdot, nothing really comes of the discussion, but there are a few tech insiders that are less than impressed with her skill as an engineer FWIW.
It does remind us that Horvath was being GitHub's rug controversy -- a rug that claimed GitHub was a meritocracy was evil because meritocracy rewards the status quo and worse, Horvath believes a feminist hackerspace organization would retaliate against women because their employer's have an evil rug.

http://readwrite.com/2014/01/24/github- ... Wvzt7dGKL7

An awful lot of drama from Horvath at GitHub in two years. And from what I can see, every time she squeaked, GitHub lubed her wheels.

The founder's wife issue will be interesting. She is, IIRC, founder of her own startup and will likely not like be charged as some crazy woman. If she says nothing, is it because a) lawyers, or b) the charges against her are true?

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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#14626

Post by Steersman »

Za-zen wrote:I have a radical idea, as to how to deal with the abortion issue. Stop getting fucking pregnant, if you don't want a fucking child. Wild idea i know, because it actually carries a measure of personal responsibility, something the children we label as adults in modern society recoil in horror from. ...
Maybe a moot point how much a lack of "personal responsibility" is part of that problem. Although, as I've recently argued (if somewhat "woodenly"), the balance between rights and responsibilities is an important part of any social issue.

But, in passing, how's your business? Managed to pull it out of the fire or heading off in a new direction? Best of luck in any case.

Anon

Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#14627

Post by Anon »

another lurker wrote:Oh, and if the government can ban abortion, the government can also force abortions "for the good of the nation". Heck, the government can even forcibly sterilize people, for the common good, of course. And all of the above are a violation of bodily autonomy.

The question being, should the government be making reproductive choices for people? It works both ways.
State governments in the US continued to forcibly sterilize people until 1981. Oregon was, I believe, the last state to do this under the auspices of the Board of Eugenics (renamed to the Board of Social Protection due to the negative connotation surrounding the word eugenics). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory ... ted_States

This was the result of the eugenics movement in the US and elsewhere in the early part of the 19th century:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics
Eugenics became an academic discipline at many colleges and universities, and received funding from many sources. Three International Eugenics Conferences presented a global venue for eugenists with meetings in 1912 in London, and in 1921 and 1932 in New York. Eugenic policies were first implemented in the early 1900s in the United States.
Also interesting, and apropos to the abortion discussion, the founder of Planned Parenthood Margaret Sanger was a strong advocate for the theory. Make of that what you will.

welch
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#14628

Post by welch »

Matt Cavanaugh wrote:
welch wrote:
Aviation can out-jargon anyone.
That's all Greek to me. But I'd like to note that the Pugachev Cobra is not a true Immelman.
Of course not. Who said that?

dogen
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#14629

Post by dogen »

JacquesCuze wrote:
spiffigt wrote:Julie Horvath quitting GitHub is making its round on slashdot.
http://developers.slashdot.org/story/14 ... arrassment

Since it is slashdot, nothing really comes of the discussion, but there are a few tech insiders that are less than impressed with her skill as an engineer FWIW.
It does remind us that Horvath was being GitHub's rug controversy -- a rug that claimed GitHub was a meritocracy was evil because meritocracy rewards the status quo and worse, Horvath believes a feminist hackerspace organization would retaliate against women because their employer's have an evil rug.

http://readwrite.com/2014/01/24/github- ... Wvzt7dGKL7

An awful lot of drama from Horvath at GitHub in two years. And from what I can see, every time she squeaked, GitHub lubed her wheels.

The founder's wife issue will be interesting. She is, IIRC, founder of her own startup and will likely not like be charged as some crazy woman. If she says nothing, is it because a) lawyers, or b) the charges against her are true?
At the end of the day, my take is that what happened to Horvath should not have happened -- even if she is a feminazi with crap technical skills. This is a major indictment of the management (or lack thereof) at GitHub; I know fuck all about good management, and yet even I can tell that they make David Brent look like Ernest Shackleton.

another lurker
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#14630

Post by another lurker »

Anon wrote:
Also interesting, and apropos to the abortion discussion, the founder of Planned Parenthood Margaret Sanger was a strong advocate for the theory. Make of that what you will.
She was also anti-abortion. Anyways, if you spend any time around right wing forums, you will learn that libtards want to kill off black Americans through birth control and abortion. Planned Parenthood being the agent of this genocide.

What I don't quite understand, though, is how libtards can, on the one hand, entice the 'black welfare queen' to have lots of babies so they can get their votes, while at the same time trying to kill her and her children off ????

*headsplode*

dogen
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#14631

Post by dogen »

welch wrote:
Matt Cavanaugh wrote:
welch wrote:
Aviation can out-jargon anyone.
That's all Greek to me. But I'd like to note that the Pugachev Cobra is not a true Immelman.
Of course not. Who said that?
Clearly, proponents of the No True Immelman fallacy.

Dick Strawkins
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#14632

Post by Dick Strawkins »

Steersman wrote:
But somewhat apropos, I see that Benson recently had a post on a “review-article in The New Republic” by Ignatieff on the Danes, the Nazis and the Holocaust. But what is somewhat amusing and ironic is that she seems rather unclear on a number of concepts and gives every indication of being a bit of a fascist or totalitarian herself. Politics, strange bedfellows and all that.
That was a shocking piece, even by her current Marianas trench level standards.

She tried to make the argument that the following the German invasion during WW2, the Danish Jews were protected by the non Jewish Danish population due to the fact that the Danish politicians of the 1930s had promoted an ideology in complete opposition to that of their neighbours in Germany.
That’s connected to what I’ve been saying for the past few days, and at intervals before that too: that some things really shouldn’t be “up for debate” and that we should prefer even a kind of dogmatism or stubbornness when it comes to those things. The Social Democratic governments of the 1930s sought to inoculate their populations against the racist ideology next door. Not have a conversation with them about it, not debate it, not weigh the pros and cons of it, but inoculate them against it. The shared identity of all Danes as democratic citizens was drummed into the political culture. Not offered, not suggested, not included on a list of goods, but drummed into the political culture. This was done just in time to render most Danes deeply resistant to the Nazi claim. Not skeptical, not unconvinced, not dubious, but deeply resistant. Why? Because human solidarity in crisis depended on the prior consolidation of a decent politics. That’s why.

Some things it just really is worth drumming into people until it’s in their bones and sinews and blood vessels, until they can’t not believe it.

The real tale of the Danish Jews survival is a fascinating story which seemed to depend on a rather smaller number of people, both Danes and a sympathetic German naval attache, who tipped off the Danes that the Germans were about to round up the Danish Jews. The Danish Jews, so informed, were able to escape en mass almost overnight by boats to neighbouring neutral Sweden.

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-24427637

Benson seems oblivious to the idea that, "some things it just really is worth drumming into people until it’s in their bones and sinews and blood vessels, until they can’t not believe it" is precisely what a certain Adolf Hitler had being doing for the previous decade in Germany, with the result that the population, so drummed, was willing to go along with the most hideous of policies.
The best answer to Benson's twisted certainty that she can judge what things can be drummed into people such that they will never have even a moment of doubt, was made decades ago by Jacob Bronowski:

[youtube]JlDumTPyn00[/youtube]

“It's said that science will dehumanize people and turn them into numbers. That's false, tragically false. Look for yourself. This is the concentration camp and crematorium at Auschwitz. This is where people were turned into numbers. Into this pond were flushed the ashes of some four million people. And that was not done by gas. It was done by arrogance, it was done by dogma, it was done by ignorance. When people believe that they have absolute knowledge, with no test in reality, this is how they behave. This is what men do when they aspire to the knowledge of gods.
Science is a very human form of knowledge. We are always at the brink of the known; we always feel forward for what is to be hoped. Every judgment in science stands on the edge of error and is personal. Science is a tribute to what we can know although we are fallible.
In the end, the words were said by Oliver Cromwell: "I beseech you in the bowels of Christ: Think it possible you may be mistaken."

Really?
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#14633

Post by Really? »

Za-zen wrote:I have a radical idea, as to how to deal with the abortion issue. Stop getting fucking pregnant, if you don't want a fucking child. Wild idea i know, because it actually carries a measure of personal responsibility, something the children we label as adults in modern society recoil in horror from.

Will this radical idea eliminate unwanted pregnancy, and therefore the potential need for abortion. No absolutely not, the debate of course consists and requires far more nuance, i absolutely accept that. Therefore an ethical position has to be taken in the cases where unwanted pregnancies occur.
How DARE you, mansplainer?

Maybe in YOUR MAGIC FANTASY WORLD a pill exists that will prevent pregnancy 90+% of the time in 90+% of women, but the rest of us live in the REAL world. Women have absolutely no control over whether or not they get pregnant while engaging in a reasonable and healthy sex life.

another lurker
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#14634

Post by another lurker »

I have an idea for how to 'stop getting fucking pregnant'. Simply look at a picture of PZ Myers/Laden and all desire will melt away.

Mykeru
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#14635

Post by Mykeru »

katamari Damassi wrote:
Mykeru wrote:
katamari Damassi wrote:Mykeru- the mid-century kitsch is the appeal for me. Love of kitsch is something of a gay thing. If I could live in Roger Sterlings office on Mad Men, I'd be a happy homo.

Oh, here's a picture of my writing desk for your beating-off pleasure:
crop IMG_1089.JPG
Love the desk lamp and the manual typewriter , but it takes a kidney shaped coffee table to get me off.
Have you considered you might have the Ikea Nesting Instinct?

[youtube]dN8vyO8ILD8[/youtube]

AndrewV69
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#14636

Post by AndrewV69 »

More stuff on GitHub How GitHub Can Detox Its Community
There’s no evidence that the way Horvath was treated was systemic. When I reached out to other women at GitHub, they declined to comment on my article.
Also see Why GitHub's CEO Ditched Its Divisive 'Meritocracy' Rug

Somehow I am kinda, sorta, getting the impression that many/some induhviduals involved in this went full "Klein bottle" (© welsh) in the past/present and if they have not by now will be doing so in the near future.

Fuck me with a splintery wooden spoon rusty spokesgay if I can figure out WTF was/is/will happen so I am just going to fall back on to the tried trusted and true MRA position about feminism and lying down with dogs and getting fleas.


Whatever man. Fuck.

Steersman
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#14637

Post by Steersman »

Dick Strawkins wrote:
Steersman wrote:
But somewhat apropos, I see that Benson recently had a post on a “review-article in The New Republic” by Ignatieff on the Danes, the Nazis and the Holocaust. But what is somewhat amusing and ironic is that she seems rather unclear on a number of concepts and gives every indication of being a bit of a fascist or totalitarian herself. Politics, strange bedfellows and all that.
That was a shocking piece, even by her current Marianas trench level standards.
<snip>

Benson seems oblivious to the idea that, "some things it just really is worth drumming into people until it’s in their bones and sinews and blood vessels, until they can’t not believe it" is precisely what a certain Adolf Hitler had being doing for the previous decade in Germany, with the result that the population, so drummed, was willing to go along with the most hideous of policies.
Indeed. Bit of a jaw-dropping moment to read that comment of hers - only a hair's breadth between that and the Killing Fields, and the Gulag, and the Re-education centers.
Dick Strawkins wrote:The best answer to Benson's twisted certainty that she can judge what things can be drummed into people such that they will never have even a moment of doubt, was made decades ago by Jacob Bronowski:

[.youtube]JlDumTPyn00[/youtube]
Rather remarkable man - and series apparently from which that segment comes from, i.e. The Ascent of Man. Hadn't realized it but it seems it's all available on YouTube which is kind of nice to find as I had been thinking of buying the DVD:


But the book of the same title is one of my favorites that I frequently peruse. A few cogent and relevant quotes:
We are all afraid - for our confidence, for the future, for the world. That is the nature of the human imagination. Yet every man, every civilization, has gone forward because of its engagement with what it has set itself to do. The personal commitment of a man to his skill, the intellectual commitment and the emotional commitment working together as one, has made the Ascent of Man. [pg 269]
Maybe somewhat "sexist" in the emphasis on "man" there in that conclusion and maybe throughout the book, but, in total, still a rather impressive vision of where we've come from and where we might yet go.

dogen
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#14638

Post by dogen »

AndrewV69 wrote:More stuff on GitHub How GitHub Can Detox Its Community
There’s no evidence that the way Horvath was treated was systemic. When I reached out to other women at GitHub, they declined to comment on my article.
Also see Why GitHub's CEO Ditched Its Divisive 'Meritocracy' Rug

Somehow I am kinda, sorta, getting the impression that many/some induhviduals involved in this went full "Klein bottle" (© welsh) in the past/present and if they have not by now will be doing so in the near future.

Fuck me with a splintery wooden spoon rusty spokesgay if I can figure out WTF was/is/will happen so I am just going to fall back on to the tried trusted and true MRA position about feminism and lying down with dogs and getting fleas.


Whatever man. Fuck.
From one of the comments by ReadStuff staff:
Lauren Orsini (ReadWrite Staff) wrote: @Rick Omen
who needs a team? I think this could be done with an algorithm. There's no reason, for instance, for anyone to need to use racial slurs in their code, and an algorithm could catch that.
That made me snigger all the way to Scunthorpe.

Jan Steen
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#14639

Post by Jan Steen »

It's a good thing I screencapped this.

http://i.imgur.com/3DMHeHS.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KMnpxCz.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/CWaFeAI.jpg

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... ent-766343

In his response, the ridiculous Louis can't wait making a fool of himself, again:
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Louis
17 March 2014 at 4:35 am (UTC -5)

It really is something to be accused of being incapable of reading by someone who has said the same thing I did…

…what a palpable fuckwit you are, troll. Enjoy your rageflailing, you’re hilariously pathetic.
I also love being called an apologist when I’ve clearly argued several times that the people you hate aren’t perfect. Apologists make apologies for something, I’ve made none. You really are criminally stupid.

Oh and don’t be silenced, spew your drivel across the web. It gives me something to laugh at with my coffee.

Toodles!

Louis
:lol: He never apologised for something. No, sir. Except that he pretended not to see Peezus's lying, and if he lied it was unimportant. But that's not apologetics.

What a monumental idiot.

Also note that Louis said (in an earlier comment):
Then the rugby started and I had far more important things to do than play fist the fuckwit (that’s you btw).
If that doesn't count as rape imagery, then I don't know what does. Why am I not surprised that nobody called him out for it?

But look who comes to Harold's defence:
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ChasCPeterson

17 March 2014 at 9:40 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
nuanced, adult, intellectually curious scepticism.
like Louis’s.
So adult, so, so nuanced.
I knew full well it wasn’t the Hoggler
and that’s why you called him ‘Franc’?
It’s still sockpuppeting, ignoramus, the only difference is that you’re doing it to ban-evade.
so, then, it’s not sockpuppeting, it’s ‘morphing’, in the usual parlance. Ignoramus.
Yes, sniping is all I got this morning. Go sue me over at Thunderdome.
Looks like he wants to get himself banned on the Pharyngulag. His one-way ticket to the Kolyma can't be far off anymore. :lol:

AndrewV69
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#14640

Post by AndrewV69 »

dogen wrote:From one of the comments by ReadStuff staff:
Lauren Orsini (ReadWrite Staff) wrote: @Rick Omen
who needs a team? I think this could be done with an algorithm. There's no reason, for instance, for anyone to need to use racial slurs in their code, and an algorithm could catch that.
That made me snigger all the way to Scunthorpe.
Ya I remember that.

Also, I figure the catfight between the founder's wife and whatshername could have been explained by apparently the fact that men and women fight differently. According to GendErratic
Women deal damage by taking away other women’s victim cred and inflating their own.

If two women clash overtly, they risk increasing other’s perception of their agency, which reduces their victim cred. If one woman has an overt advantage in a fight it may backfire by increasing perception of her agency while increasing her enemies’ victim cred.

A clean knock out is achieved when everyone believes you are the passive flower of fainting womanhood wounded by a vile witch of a she-beast whom you have done everything you could to appease with your gentle compassion despite your rival’s horrible wickedness.

Therefore all violence has to be on the down low.
So according to the above whatshername scored a knockout blow when she resigned with the result that the founder's wife was subsequently banned from the office.

There might have been some collerateral damage as well ... one of the founders also banned from the office along with his wife and whatshername's boyfriend fired/resigned?

(I shoud go back and check ... but right now I have other pressing matters to attend to)

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