Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

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welch
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#4561

Post by welch »

rayshul wrote:Even if you don't trust the stats, they're probably the best stats that you can get. I think the picture it paints generally is fairly logical - both men and women are violent in relationships and to children, and that at the end of the day you don't gain anything by painting it as a situation that's specific to one gender.
Yep.

Like rape, it is neither exclusively a woman's nor a man's problem. It is a human problem and asking either group to pretend their problem either doesn't exist, or TELLING them they must ignore their problem, their pain until YOUR problem is solved is not going to make them want to give a fuck about your problem. It's going to be far more likely to make them be at best, just enough more than apathetic so that you cannot accuse them of not caring at all.

When I hear women justify the ignoring/dismissal of male rape victims because of numbers, what I want to say is:

"So there's an acceptable number of rapes? Tell me, if we got the number of women raped down to the number of men raped, we could all pretend rape wasn't a problem anymore? No, no, you just used the (relatively) small numbers of reported male rape victims to dismiss the problem entirely, so CLEARLY there is a Minimum Number of Rapes that you find acceptable. I'm just clarifying this so we have a new, probably more achievable goal for declaring the rape problem over. Look, we can even have a cool acronym for it: M-NOR.

So, just to be clear, this means reducing the number of women who report being raped to parity/equality with the number of men who report being raped, right? Or would the number of men being raped going waaaaay up be okay? is it reduction to parity for women or increase to parity for men that we're talking about?

Because as long as we're being inhuman, uncaring shitcocks about it, I JUST WANT TO MAKE FUCKING SURE WE'RE ALL CLEAR ABOUT HOW MANY RAPES IS TOTALLY OKEY-FUCKING-DOKEY, SO THAT WE DON'T HAVE ANY MORE FUCKING MISUNDERSTANDINGS."

Guestus Aurelius
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#4562

Post by Guestus Aurelius »

Damn, welch. Tell us how you really feel!

katamari Damassi
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#4563

Post by katamari Damassi »

:popcorn:

Thank you so much for that link.

Cocheese
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#4564

Post by Cocheese »

Garlic wrote: Looking at actual murders of children under age 5, children are as likely to be killed by fathers as by mothers (~30% each). OTOH they are more likely to be killed by male than female (non-parent) acquaintances (23% to 5%).

Murders of teenagers are 95% male-committed, but they include much less family violence.

The only figure I know of for which women outnumber men is murder of children under 6 *days* old.

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/ascii/htus8008.txt
http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/mf.pdf

To state the obvious, homicides are much less prone to subjective estimation.

It is rather questionable to try to define the issue of abuse by homicide rates, seeing as homicides make up such a tiny portion of the total.

James Caruthers
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#4565

Post by James Caruthers »

Some Lurker wrote:
Matt Cavanaugh wrote:When looking at parent-on-child physical abuse, 80-90% of the perps are women.
Is that really fair? Surely that is because women tend to be around kids more than men are. I was under the impression that if you look at single parent families the men are, on average, far more abusive to their children than the women are.
But why are women around kids more than men? This also raises other interesting questions, like how male teachers of young children are treated in America, and how a father taking pictures of his son with a group of other kids at the park is viewed with suspicion and mistrust.

If we allow emotional, sexual and psychological abuse to count as abuse, I have no problem believing that women, all things being equal, abuse children at least as much as men. That has certainly been my "lived experience" and therefore nothing you can say can disprove my ironclad victim narrative! :snooty:

James Caruthers
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#4566

Post by James Caruthers »

John D wrote:Perhaps I am just a bit butt-hurt that our Commander-in-Chief used the "women make 77% as much as men" statistic last night.... and it resulted in the biggest cheer of the night.
It's the Terminator Lie. It never stops, it never goes away, and you can never kill it. It doesn't matter how many organizations, across all political spectrums, report that the Terminator Lie is bullshit. It doesn't matter how many studies disprove it, or how many feminist websites post their own articles admitting the Terminator Lie is nonsense.

It's like the "people thought the earth was flat before columbus" lie. Ignorance is eternal. You can never disabuse people of notions which have been lodged in their brains, no matter how many times you prove those notions false.
http://www.factcheck.org/2012/06/obamas ... ggeration/
There’s wide variation, to be sure. Female chief executives still make only 69 percent, and female financial managers make just 66 percent, of their male counterparts’ earnings. And this study didn’t find enough female electricians, construction workers, grounds maintenance workers, carpenters or auto mechanics to make a valid comparison.
:lol: Did it ever occur to them to question why they couldn't find enough women in dirty, dangerous, sweaty jobs? No doubt it's PATRIARCHY's fault again.
And however wide or narrow the gap, discrimination by employers isn’t responsible for all of it. In fact, a women’s pay specialist in Obama’s own Department of Labor — even as she was arguing that pay discrimination is not a “myth” — said research shows discrimination accounts for less than half of the raw pay gap.
Economists have identified a host of factors — other than discrimination by employers — that lead to lower earnings for women. These include such things as women choosing to work fewer overtime hours, choosing jobs that offer more “family friendly” fringe benefits in lieu of higher pay, and choosing to leave the workforce for years to rear children. Whether these choices are voluntary, or unfairly forced on women by society, is a good question. But they are not discrimination by employers.
One can only hope that someday feminists will realize that women freely choosing to work easier jobs that pay less is not oppression.

katamari Damassi
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#4567

Post by katamari Damassi »

Kind of fun over at Shakesville. McEwen actually can't muster much to say and relies on her disciples to help her out in the comments section. The Shakesvillians themselves prove a perfect example of the Nation's article by deliberately misinterpreting it and taking veiled swipes at the author's race:
Here we have a Deputy Editor of a mainstream publication equating
critiques from Women of Color to bullying, harassment and now codifying
all this behavior under a new umbrella term: misogofeminism. Or, to put it in layman terms, when uppity Women of Color and other marginalized minorities complain that
mainstream publications contribute to their marginalization.
And Ana Mardoll once again reveals herself to be an idiot.

rayshul
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#4568

Post by rayshul »

It is nice to see articles that find these people disgusting. But even then that feminist toxic article uses misguided concepts like privilege.

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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#4569

Post by BarnOwl »

AndrewV69 wrote:
<snip>

One example for instance is where Dalrock opines about aging feminist Liz Jones which he titled A post-marital spinster’s rationalization hamster in the final stages of exhaustion.

Here she is, holding one of her 17 cats:
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/12/ ... 68x487.jpg
(Picture taken from the article by that bastion of journalistic integrity known as the Daily Fail by the usual suspects and titled Wish me a lonely Christmas and spare a thought for the millions of women like me)

I have no idea if Penny really believes this dislike by some men of short hair on a woman is actually hate or not, as I can not say I pay much attention to her. I lumped her in the "mindless parrot" category a long time ago. Reading her recent "article" just reconfirms that she is a muddled mess and if she winds up being another crazy cat lady?

*shrug*

Whatever man. Fuck. (Die Antwoord).
Currently I have to maintain a modicum of normalcy and sanity because of my job, but I'm OK with becoming a crazy dog lady in my dotage. I doubt I'll reach the pathetic stage of careless housekeeping + jeans/leggings/whatever-the-hell-she's-wearing with dozen of holes, though.

Working on the dog part atm, actually, as I'm likely to adopt a third small dog (former puppy mill breeder) soon. Ay, Chihuahua! :D

zenbabe
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#4570

Post by zenbabe »

Tidbits from the comment section from yesterday's PZ post.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... ent-745082
RobertL

28 January 2014 at 8:41 pm (UTC -6) Link to this comment

Lawyer up and teach them a lesson about privilege. They’re used to having it because they are white middle-class students. Now they are up against a white middle-class University Professor. You can use that to your advantage.
Who is this person, they must be teasing the commentariat.
Yes! PZ, use your privilege to fight this completely ridiculous and frivolous accusation :D

Idly, I wonder why he didn't go to the authorities first, as he did when he was falsely accused of sexual harassment. Perhaps it's because starting legal proceedings takes too much time, compared to running over to the offices of the administration, or blogging about it.
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Rawnaeris, Lulu Cthulhu

28 January 2014 at 9:18 pm (UTC -6)

I’m seconding or thirding the PopeHat Signal.

This situation has passed from the ridiculous into the extremely concerning.
:lol:
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miles

28 January 2014 at 9:24 pm (UTC -6)

OTOH after all the concerns about campus security selectively paying attention to criminal complaints (re sexual assault on campuses) this last week… good to see they are starting to try and take every complaint seriously? I hope? Fingers crossed?
Yes, isn't this increased awareness, seriousness and vigilance by authorities what they wanted, showing that the accusers/victims are believed?
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Alverant

28 January 2014 at 9:27 pm (UTC -6)

I’m almost willing to bet money it was one of their own who stole the papers and/or “vandalized” them so they could pretend to be the victims. It’s happened before.
Oh noes a false accusation.

:giggle: These people are just .. endlessly impossible to adequately describe.

zenbabe
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#4571

Post by zenbabe »

BarnOwl wrote:
AndrewV69 wrote:
<snip>

One example for instance is where Dalrock opines about aging feminist Liz Jones which he titled A post-marital spinster’s rationalization hamster in the final stages of exhaustion.

Here she is, holding one of her 17 cats:
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/12/ ... 68x487.jpg
Currently I have to maintain a modicum of normalcy and sanity because of my job, but I'm OK with becoming a crazy dog lady in my dotage. I doubt I'll reach the pathetic stage of careless housekeeping + jeans/leggings/whatever-the-hell-she's-wearing with dozen of holes, though.
My brain keeps wanting to insist she's wearing leggings made of skin. Not leather but.. skin.
Working on the dog part atm, actually, as I'm likely to adopt a third small dog (former puppy mill breeder) soon. Ay, Chihuahua! :D
New pet madness :)
I'm more of a cat person,and more of a bigger dog person, but nonetheless! would very much like to see pics when you get it

SoylentAtheist

Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#4572

Post by SoylentAtheist »

Amazing article.

tl;dr - Don't worry about fighting nutcase-feminists, they will end up ripping themselves apart.

My deep condolences to the even-keeled feminists who actually want to make progress. The movement is just so embedded with so much toxic enabling behaviors it will end itself and a good chunk of the good will, and willingness for people to make a difference.

Tribble
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#4573

Post by Tribble »

lol. Turn-about doesn't get any better than that...

SoylentAtheist

Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#4574

Post by SoylentAtheist »

welch wrote:"So there's an acceptable number of rapes? Tell me, if we got the number of women raped down to the number of men raped, we could all pretend rape wasn't a problem anymore? No, no, you just used the (relatively) small numbers of reported male rape victims to dismiss the problem entirely, so CLEARLY there is a Minimum Number of Rapes that you find acceptable. I'm just clarifying this so we have a new, probably more achievable goal for declaring the rape problem over. Look, we can even have a cool acronym for it: M-NOR.

So, just to be clear, this means reducing the number of women who report being raped to parity/equality with the number of men who report being raped, right? Or would the number of men being raped going waaaaay up be okay? is it reduction to parity for women or increase to parity for men that we're talking about?

Because as long as we're being inhuman, uncaring shitcocks about it, I JUST WANT TO MAKE FUCKING SURE WE'RE ALL CLEAR ABOUT HOW MANY RAPES IS TOTALLY OKEY-FUCKING-DOKEY, SO THAT WE DON'T HAVE ANY MORE FUCKING MISUNDERSTANDINGS."
Hmm... an acceptable number. I will put to you that for any given proposed solution to the problem, there will be a number that not only you but society is willing to accept. We could end the problem forever if we kill all humans. But that cure is worse than the disease. Just as we could end all auto deaths by eliminating all cars.

rayshul
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#4575

Post by rayshul »

An old one but hey... http://archive.is/GHPz8

didymos
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#4576

Post by didymos »

zenbabe wrote: My brain keeps wanting to insist she's wearing leggings made of skin. Not leather but.. skin.
Well, technically, leather is skin.

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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#4577

Post by Steersman »

Tribble wrote:
lol. Turn-about doesn't get any better than that...
Indeed. Benson wasn’t terribly impressed when I pointed to that article, although maybe she was more bent out of shape over my reference to her related “connecting ‘virulent’ with ‘feminism’ is misogyny” ....

My subsequent response which she is unlikely to let see the light of day:
Yea, well it is entirely paradigmatic and emblematic of some intrinsic flaws in “feminism” – the proverbial tip of the iceberg. You might want to consider that possibility, and that article, in light of your upcoming Google-Hangout/FtBCon2 on the topic of “Evidence-Based Feminism” – ha! What a laugh.

BarnOwl
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#4578

Post by BarnOwl »

The crested black macaques on this Nature program appear to have excellent 'shoop potential.

And they're funky.

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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#4579

Post by zenbabe »

rayshul wrote:An old one but hey... http://archive.is/GHPz8
omg :lol:
some real jaw droppers in there, these stood out to me:
- A prominent member of the caucus, now a National Office Bearer, who believes in ‘headmates’ – other identities that occupy your body, and can claim different ethnicities or sexualities, thus allowing you to join an autonomous caucus (for instance queer or women’s) you were not otherwise entitled to join.
:shock:
- A debate in National Caucus about dating preferences: some members stated that racial dating preferences is entirely racist, another criticised those who dated based on attractiveness, and one person even stated that dating based on the sex of the other is discriminatory.
IT IS MADNESS!

zenbabe
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#4580

Post by zenbabe »

didymos wrote:
zenbabe wrote: My brain keeps wanting to insist she's wearing leggings made of skin. Not leather but.. skin.
Well, technically, leather is skin.
I know.
Was trying to point out the more creepy 'Silence of the Lambs' ick-factor of those leggings.

Tribble
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#4581

Post by Tribble »

Garlic wrote:
Matt Cavanaugh wrote: * Men are more likely to be hospitalized overnight, or be killed, due to women's predilection for using heavy objects or weapons.
In the figures I know of, among victims of homicide by intimate partner or ex-partner, women outnumber men almost 3 to 1.

You can reconstruct that from the data in here with a bit of arithmetic :
http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/htus8008.pdf
(In 2008, 45% of female murder victims were killed by an intimate partner, vs 5% of male murder victims; and females represent 23% of murder victims.)
When looking at parent-on-child physical abuse, 80-90% of the perps are women.
Looking at actual murders of children under age 5, children are as likely to be killed by fathers as by mothers (~30% each). OTOH they are more likely to be killed by male than female (non-parent) acquaintances (23% to 5%).

Murders of teenagers are 95% male-committed, but they include much less family violence.

The only figure I know of for which women outnumber men is murder of children under 6 *days* old.

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/ascii/htus8008.txt
http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/mf.pdf

To state the obvious, homicides are much less prone to subjective estimation.
I don't think your math, or your source, really tells us anything important about the picture. There are the child-abuse fatality demographics:
Four-fifths (80.0%) of child fatalities involved parents acting alone, together, or with other individuals. A child’s mother acting alone perpetrated 27.1 percent, both parents were responsible for one-fifth (21.2%), and a father acting alone perpetrated 17.1 percent of child fatalities. Perpetrators without a parental relationship to the child accounted for 14.3 percent of fatalities. Child fatalities with unknown perpetrator relationship data accounted for 5.6 percent. (See Table 4 – 4 and related notes.)
(Caregivers are, generally, more women than men.)

That's from the Child Maltreatment 2012 report from the U.S. Department of Health & Human Services Administration for Children and Families Administration on Children, Youth and Families Children’s Bureau.

It's 264 pages of gruesome coupled with boring and frightening.

Other stats:

The rate of fatalities in boys is 2.54 per 100K. The rate of fatalities for girls is 1.94 per 100K. If this is brought up, you're a sexist. Think of the girlz. Pacific Islander and African-American children had the highest rates of child fatalities at 4.69 and 4.67 per 100,000 Pacific Islander and African-American children, while White children had a rate of 1.60 per 100,000 White children. If you mention this, you're a racist.

If you mention little PI and Black boys get it the worst, while white girls get it the best, you're a complete racist, misogynist asshole. The mere fact the data supports that conclusion is irrelevant.


BTW, when a woman starves her baby boy to death that's frequently classified as 'neglect' and not prosecuted as murder. Even though it's a particularly cruel form of murder. So you won't find it in the 'murder' stats. Instead, it's felony child abuse, felony child neglect. The kid is still dead. But it's not 'murder' though many people, myself included, feel that it is often murder.

didymos
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#4582

Post by didymos »

So, it looks like the Feminist Race Wars will be the next big thing. And you thought the Feminist Sex Wars were fun!

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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#4583

Post by ianfc »

katamari Damassi wrote: <snip>
And Ana Mardoll once again reveals herself to be an idiot.
aphra_behn, a mod at Shakesville also engages in a bit of idiocy. In the "Feminism’s Toxic Twitter Wars" piece Goldberg wrote
Martin was floored. She’s long believed that it’s incumbent on feminists to be open to critique—but the response was so vitriolic, so full of bad faith and stubborn misinformation, that it felt like some sort of Maoist hazing.
But no way is aphra going to let Goldberg appropriate Maoist self criticism.
aphra_behn Moderator
• 3 hours ago

<snip>

Finally, it is fucking gross for the original article to appropriate "Maoist self-criticism," because "getting criticized on Twitter" is not the same as "enduring psychological torture from a totalitarian regime that can kill me at any time." (And, NOT COINCIDENTALLY, that particular appropriation is an insult mostly to POC. )
Hopefully these people will eventually STFU because all language will be deemed offensive.

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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#4584

Post by Steersman »

rayshul wrote:Even if you don't trust the stats, they're probably the best stats that you can get. I think the picture it paints generally is fairly logical - both men and women are violent in relationships and to children, and that at the end of the day you don't gain anything by painting it as a situation that's specific to one gender.
Would certainly agree that “violence in relationships” is not “specific to one gender”. However, you might want to consider the fact that there are 10 times as many men in US prisons as there are women, and from which I’ve suggested that a large part of the reason for that disparity is a greater disposition or tendency in men towards violence and crime – “[criminality], it’s more of a guy thing”. Which led “Giliell” to argue that “somebody who goes around telling that criminal behaviour is more of a guy thing is biological has a far worse concept of men than any feminist ever came up” – and which I had discussed here at some length in the Pit.

But that perspective of hers, and to a lesser extent yours, seems predicated on some degree of confusion between the statement that “guys are more violent” and the similar “there are more guys who are violent” – the first is asserting something about all guys whereas the second one is only asserting something about some of them; entirely different kettles of fish but illustrative of, I think, the problem of group-think and identify politics. Pinker has a nice elaboration on that difference here, as well as providing some evidence for those types of behavioural differences supposedly due, in part, to genetics.

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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#4585

Post by welch »

SoylentAtheist wrote:
welch wrote:"So there's an acceptable number of rapes? Tell me, if we got the number of women raped down to the number of men raped, we could all pretend rape wasn't a problem anymore? No, no, you just used the (relatively) small numbers of reported male rape victims to dismiss the problem entirely, so CLEARLY there is a Minimum Number of Rapes that you find acceptable. I'm just clarifying this so we have a new, probably more achievable goal for declaring the rape problem over. Look, we can even have a cool acronym for it: M-NOR.

So, just to be clear, this means reducing the number of women who report being raped to parity/equality with the number of men who report being raped, right? Or would the number of men being raped going waaaaay up be okay? is it reduction to parity for women or increase to parity for men that we're talking about?

Because as long as we're being inhuman, uncaring shitcocks about it, I JUST WANT TO MAKE FUCKING SURE WE'RE ALL CLEAR ABOUT HOW MANY RAPES IS TOTALLY OKEY-FUCKING-DOKEY, SO THAT WE DON'T HAVE ANY MORE FUCKING MISUNDERSTANDINGS."
Hmm... an acceptable number. I will put to you that for any given proposed solution to the problem, there will be a number that not only you but society is willing to accept. We could end the problem forever if we kill all humans. But that cure is worse than the disease. Just as we could end all auto deaths by eliminating all cars.
Oh, I absolutely understand that concept, and you're right. when i worked on airplanes, we had an acceptable leak rate for hydraulic fluid. Even unemployment, we have a percentage that we consider the problem solved, even though that number is not zero, not even close.

But the larger point is the hypocrisy in talking about ONE RAPE IS TOO MANY, at the same time as you dismiss rapes because there aren't enough to count.

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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#4586

Post by AndrewV69 »

rayshul wrote:
Some Lurker wrote:
Matt Cavanaugh wrote:When looking at parent-on-child physical abuse, 80-90% of the perps are women.
Is that really fair? Surely that is because women tend to be around kids more than men are. I was under the impression that if you look at single parent families the men are, on average, far more abusive to their children than the women are.
Yeah - I wouldn't question the reality of the stat but I think there's obvs some reasons for the way it is skewed.
As I recall, child abuse is much more likely to happen when the father is not present in the life of the child. Male perps are more often that not, likely to have no genetic relationship to the child.

*shrug*

This kind of thing is pretty common in the animal kingdom so I am really not surprised to see humans practise it.

ianfc
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#4587

Post by ianfc »

I guess Hensley, Benson, Zvan et. al. would vigorusly disagree with aphra's notion of twitter trauma.

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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#4588

Post by ROBOKiTTY »

Pharyngula (amongst other SJ strongholds) is a living parody of Pinker's The Blank Slate. The sad fact that the book was published over ten years ago now only reinforces the idiocy of the SJWs.

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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#4589

Post by Steersman »

ROBOKiTTY wrote:Pharyngula (amongst other SJ strongholds) is a living parody of Pinker's The Blank Slate. The sad fact that the book was published over ten years ago now only reinforces the idiocy of the SJWs.
Many of them certainly do seem to be engaged in some version of “The Modern Denial of Human Nature”. Kind of funny in a way to see many of them twisting in the wind in trying to reconcile facts with various contradictory positions – hard to see how some can insist on gender as almost entirely a social construct while apparently arguing that homosexuality and transgenderism are genetically determined. And likewise with “Lah-den’s” insistence that males are “testosterone-damaged females” – which I don’t recollect any of the usual suspects attempting to take him to task over.

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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#4590

Post by guest »


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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#4591

Post by Sunder »

Steersman wrote:hard to see how some can insist on gender as almost entirely a social construct while apparently arguing that homosexuality and transgenderism are genetically determined.
I seem to recall it coming up before that many SJWs don't believe such things are genetic. They believe in the same illusion of choice espoused by fundamentalists.

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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#4592

Post by ROBOKiTTY »

If men are socialized to rape, why can't women be socialized to accept rape? I want to advance this as a serious question.

The apparent fact that Ogmonster and Cainaji have allowed their past experiences to haunt them to this day is almost entirely due to their toxic feminist socialization, because millions of others recover just fine from nonconsensual sexual experiences. I am completely dismissive of the idea that rape, even in its more violent form, is necessarily any more horrific than a savage beating on the same scale. At the same time, there is, at least compared to rape, almost no universal cultural taboo on beatings and non-lethal violence.

From an evolutionary standpoint, it makes sense that rape emerged as a high-risk counter-strategy (and perhaps a complementary strategy) to sexual selection. One might disinterestedly argue that in this way, rape is a valid way 1) for individuals lacking any privilege of attractiveness to challenge the matriarchy that holds the gate to sexual selection in the case of male-on-female rape; and 2) perhaps partly to counterbalance the male challenge, for sexual selectors to force their will on attractive but unreceptive targets in the case of female-on-male rape.

So why such a visceral reaction to rape? It's true that rape deprives the raped of agency, but plenty of things deprive people of their choice. A fast or devious individual could beat you to a contested resource, thus depriving you of all the possible worlds that could have resulted from your choices had you gained access to that resource. The said individual could even bear malicious intent and taunt you with their success, and still our society does not consider that immoral. Or to move the hypothetical scenario into closer territory, what about manipulatively setting someone up with another, perhaps an abusive person (this is a major part of the novel Emma, sometimes considered a feminist text)? The outcome is almost the same, that of depriving another person of their reproductive agency and potentially causing as much and possibly more harm than an equivalent act of rape would. Why is unsolicited matchmaking not as bad as rape? Arranged marriage?

I want to see more disinterested discussion like this without the usual prefacing of disclaimers like "Rape is totes despicable but...".

rayshul
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#4593

Post by rayshul »

Steersman wrote:
rayshul wrote:Even if you don't trust the stats, they're probably the best stats that you can get. I think the picture it paints generally is fairly logical - both men and women are violent in relationships and to children, and that at the end of the day you don't gain anything by painting it as a situation that's specific to one gender.
Would certainly agree that “violence in relationships” is not “specific to one gender”. However, you might want to consider the fact that there are 10 times as many men in US prisons as there are women, and from which I’ve suggested that a large part of the reason for that disparity is a greater disposition or tendency in men towards violence and crime – “[criminality], it’s more of a guy thing”. Which led “Giliell” to argue that “somebody who goes around telling that criminal behaviour is more of a guy thing is biological has a far worse concept of men than any feminist ever came up” – and which I had discussed here at some length in the Pit.

But that perspective of hers, and to a lesser extent yours, seems predicated on some degree of confusion between the statement that “guys are more violent” and the similar “there are more guys who are violent” – the first is asserting something about all guys whereas the second one is only asserting something about some of them; entirely different kettles of fish but illustrative of, I think, the problem of group-think and identify politics. Pinker has a nice elaboration on that difference here, as well as providing some evidence for those types of behavioural differences supposedly due, in part, to genetics.
Sorry, Steers, I'm completely failing to parse you lately. I don't know that who is violent matters.

AndrewV69
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#4594

Post by AndrewV69 »

BarnOwl wrote:Currently I have to maintain a modicum of normalcy and sanity because of my job, but I'm OK with becoming a crazy dog lady in my dotage. I doubt I'll reach the pathetic stage of careless housekeeping + jeans/leggings/whatever-the-hell-she's-wearing with dozen of holes, though.

Working on the dog part atm, actually, as I'm likely to adopt a third small dog (former puppy mill breeder) soon. Ay, Chihuahua! :D
Crazy dog ladies are few and far apart I hear. Something tells me you will be fine.

dogen
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#4595

Post by dogen »

ROBOKiTTY wrote:If men are socialized to rape, why can't women be socialized to accept rape? I want to advance this as a serious question.

The apparent fact that Ogmonster and Cainaji have allowed their past experiences to haunt them to this day is almost entirely due to their toxic feminist socialization, because millions of others recover just fine from nonconsensual sexual experiences. I am completely dismissive of the idea that rape, even in its more violent form, is necessarily any more horrific than a savage beating on the same scale. At the same time, there is, at least compared to rape, almost no universal cultural taboo on beatings and non-lethal violence.

From an evolutionary standpoint, it makes sense that rape emerged as a high-risk counter-strategy (and perhaps a complementary strategy) to sexual selection. One might disinterestedly argue that in this way, rape is a valid way 1) for individuals lacking any privilege of attractiveness to challenge the matriarchy that holds the gate to sexual selection in the case of male-on-female rape; and 2) perhaps partly to counterbalance the male challenge, for sexual selectors to force their will on attractive but unreceptive targets in the case of female-on-male rape.

So why such a visceral reaction to rape? It's true that rape deprives the raped of agency, but plenty of things deprive people of their choice. A fast or devious individual could beat you to a contested resource, thus depriving you of all the possible worlds that could have resulted from your choices had you gained access to that resource. The said individual could even bear malicious intent and taunt you with their success, and still our society does not consider that immoral. Or to move the hypothetical scenario into closer territory, what about manipulatively setting someone up with another, perhaps an abusive person (this is a major part of the novel Emma, sometimes considered a feminist text)? The outcome is almost the same, that of depriving another person of their reproductive agency and potentially causing as much and possibly more harm than an equivalent act of rape would. Why is unsolicited matchmaking not as bad as rape? Arranged marriage?

I want to see more disinterested discussion like this without the usual prefacing of disclaimers like "Rape is totes despicable but...".
Nicely put. I've often wondered why rape is viewed as worse than murder...

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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#4596

Post by Steersman »

rayshul wrote:
Steersman wrote:
rayshul wrote:Even if you don't trust the stats, they're probably the best stats that you can get. I think the picture it paints generally is fairly logical - both men and women are violent in relationships and to children, and that at the end of the day you don't gain anything by painting it as a situation that's specific to one gender.
Would certainly agree that “violence in relationships” is not “specific to one gender”. However, you might want to consider the fact that there are 10 times as many men in US prisons as there are women, and from which I’ve suggested that a large part of the reason for that disparity is a greater disposition or tendency in men towards violence and crime – “[criminality], it’s more of a guy thing”. Which led “Giliell” to argue that “somebody who goes around telling that criminal behaviour is more of a guy thing is biological has a far worse concept of men than any feminist ever came up” – and which I had discussed here at some length in the Pit.

But that perspective of hers, and to a lesser extent yours, seems predicated on some degree of confusion between the statement that “guys are more violent” and the similar “there are more guys who are violent” – the first is asserting something about all guys whereas the second one is only asserting something about some of them; entirely different kettles of fish but illustrative of, I think, the problem of group-think and identify politics. Pinker has a nice elaboration on that difference here, as well as providing some evidence for those types of behavioural differences supposedly due, in part, to genetics.
Sorry, Steers, I'm completely failing to parse you lately. I don't know that who is violent matters.
Maybe partly my fault for not explaining it well or not understanding the issues all that well myself, and going off on tangents as a result. But maybe it’s my experiences as an electronic technologist having to repair stuff: can’t fix a problem unless you know the causes.

And the general SJW position seems to be to lay all of the blame, all of the faults at the doorstep of society – “Teh Patriarchy”, the entire male gender, and the like – while rather obstinately if not pigheadedly refusing to concede that genetics may play a significant role. Kind of changes the nature of the solutions that might have some bearing, that might ameliorate the worst effects.

Sort of the problem with Marxism that was highlighted by that quote I provided of E.O. Wilson – his view, as a biologist who had spent a great amount of time studing ants and other social animals and insects, was that Marxism was a “wonderful theory, [but was applied to the] wrong species” – humans instead of ants – and that it was starting off from some erroneous premises about the nature of human nature. And the results have kind of proved him right.

But it also highlights the rather problematic fact that great swaths of sociology, of SJL-speak, seem to be undergirded by that same highly questionable Marxism and sociology. But that book of Pinker's - The Blank Slate - lays out that argument in far more detail and depth than I can manage if you wanted some of that background.

ianfc
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#4597

Post by ianfc »

dogen wrote:
ROBOKiTTY wrote:If men are socialized to rape, why can't women be socialized to accept rape? I want to advance this as a serious question.

The apparent fact that Ogmonster and Cainaji have allowed their past experiences to haunt them to this day is almost entirely due to their toxic feminist socialization, because millions of others recover just fine from nonconsensual sexual experiences. I am completely dismissive of the idea that rape, even in its more violent form, is necessarily any more horrific than a savage beating on the same scale. At the same time, there is, at least compared to rape, almost no universal cultural taboo on beatings and non-lethal violence.

From an evolutionary standpoint, it makes sense that rape emerged as a high-risk counter-strategy (and perhaps a complementary strategy) to sexual selection. One might disinterestedly argue that in this way, rape is a valid way 1) for individuals lacking any privilege of attractiveness to challenge the matriarchy that holds the gate to sexual selection in the case of male-on-female rape; and 2) perhaps partly to counterbalance the male challenge, for sexual selectors to force their will on attractive but unreceptive targets in the case of female-on-male rape.

So why such a visceral reaction to rape? It's true that rape deprives the raped of agency, but plenty of things deprive people of their choice. A fast or devious individual could beat you to a contested resource, thus depriving you of all the possible worlds that could have resulted from your choices had you gained access to that resource. The said individual could even bear malicious intent and taunt you with their success, and still our society does not consider that immoral. Or to move the hypothetical scenario into closer territory, what about manipulatively setting someone up with another, perhaps an abusive person (this is a major part of the novel Emma, sometimes considered a feminist text)? The outcome is almost the same, that of depriving another person of their reproductive agency and potentially causing as much and possibly more harm than an equivalent act of rape would. Why is unsolicited matchmaking not as bad as rape? Arranged marriage?

I want to see more disinterested discussion like this without the usual prefacing of disclaimers like "Rape is totes despicable but...".
Nicely put. I've often wondered why rape is viewed as worse than murder...
I agree with ROBOKITTY, with suitable groveling, and Dogen on this. I guess any discussion about this goes into Evo Psych territory hence the summary dismissal of Evolutionary Psychology by the SJL crowd.

another lurker
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#4598

Post by another lurker »

ROBOKiTTY wrote:If men are socialized to rape, why can't women be socialized to accept rape? I want to advance this as a serious question.

The apparent fact that Ogmonster and Cainaji have allowed their past experiences to haunt them to this day is almost entirely due to their toxic feminist socialization, because millions of others recover just fine from nonconsensual sexual experiences. I am completely dismissive of the idea that rape, even in its more violent form, is necessarily any more horrific than a savage beating on the same scale. At the same time, there is, at least compared to rape, almost no universal cultural taboo on beatings and non-lethal violence.

From an evolutionary standpoint, it makes sense that rape emerged as a high-risk counter-strategy (and perhaps a complementary strategy) to sexual selection. One might disinterestedly argue that in this way, rape is a valid way 1) for individuals lacking any privilege of attractiveness to challenge the matriarchy that holds the gate to sexual selection in the case of male-on-female rape; and 2) perhaps partly to counterbalance the male challenge, for sexual selectors to force their will on attractive but unreceptive targets in the case of female-on-male rape.

So why such a visceral reaction to rape? It's true that rape deprives the raped of agency, but plenty of things deprive people of their choice. A fast or devious individual could beat you to a contested resource, thus depriving you of all the possible worlds that could have resulted from your choices had you gained access to that resource. The said individual could even bear malicious intent and taunt you with their success, and still our society does not consider that immoral. Or to move the hypothetical scenario into closer territory, what about manipulatively setting someone up with another, perhaps an abusive person (this is a major part of the novel Emma, sometimes considered a feminist text)? The outcome is almost the same, that of depriving another person of their reproductive agency and potentially causing as much and possibly more harm than an equivalent act of rape would. Why is unsolicited matchmaking not as bad as rape? Arranged marriage?

I want to see more disinterested discussion like this without the usual prefacing of disclaimers like "Rape is totes despicable but...".
I've been thinking about that lately. Especially after watching those Robert Sapolsky videos - where he talks about the various methods of mating - and how *both* sexes will cheat and try to get resources for 'free' out of the other, basically. A few months ago, Rocko asked why rape is considered to be one of the worst things that can happen to a person. And this is why, imo. It's cheating. I also base this on my somewhat limited (and feel free to correct me) reading on the subject of childhood sexual abuse. That some children, even *before* they knew anything about sex, or what sex was, felt that it was the worst thing that could have happened to them. Of course, it's entirely anecdotal, and maybe they *only* developed these feelings *after* they learned about the 'shame' associated with rape - but I figure I may as well put it out there for consideration!

Anyhoo, good post kitty. This is why kittehs are :bjarte:

Steersman
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#4599

Post by Steersman »

Sunder wrote:
Steersman wrote:hard to see how some can insist on gender as almost entirely a social construct while apparently arguing that homosexuality and transgenderism are genetically determined.
I seem to recall it coming up before that many SJWs don't believe such things are genetic. They believe in the same illusion of choice espoused by fundamentalists.
That’s probably true that many of them don’t. But my impression – which might well be wrong – is that many others, particularly in the gay and transgendered subcommunities within the larger SJL one – generally support the concept that genetics plays a significant role in their sexual orientations and choices – part of the “one doesn’t choose one’s eye colour” meme, for example. Some “uneasy” alliances there, as I think Dick Strawkins and others have suggested.

In any case, I think that quote of Greg Laden still stands as a clear example of “genetic determinism” within the SJL camp.

James Caruthers
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#4600

Post by James Caruthers »

I've heard of many past rape victims who hate SJW feminists, and they claim that the hysterical overreaction to rape can harm the road to recovery for actual survivors of rape. By both constantly talking about rape (trivializing the meaning of the word by associating it with lesser crimes and even some activities which are not crimes) while maintaining a hysterical, hilarious over-reaction to the impact of the crime on the victim, the SJWs make rape out to be both incredibly common and WORSE THAN DEATH OMG UR GONNA GET RAEPED RIGHT NAO WITHOUT FEMINISM AND U CAN NEVAR HEAL!

Whereas many men and women who have been raped got over it and moved on with their lives. It's empowering to be told that what happened to you, while bad and not your fault, is something you can move past. You cannot move past murder. Because you're fucking dead.

That's why I will never see eye-to-eye with feminists who claim that rape is equal to or worse than murder.

another lurker
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#4601

Post by another lurker »

James Caruthers wrote:I've heard of many past rape victims who hate SJW feminists, and they claim that the hysterical overreaction to rape can harm the road to recovery for actual survivors of rape. By both constantly talking about rape (trivializing the meaning of the word by associating it with lesser crimes and even some activities which are not crimes) while maintaining a hysterical, hilarious over-reaction to the impact of the crime on the victim, the SJWs make rape out to be both incredibly common and WORSE THAN DEATH OMG UR GONNA GET RAEPED RIGHT NAO WITHOUT FEMINISM AND U CAN NEVAR HEAL!

Whereas many men and women who have been raped got over it and moved on with their lives. It's empowering to be told that what happened to you, while bad and not your fault, is something you can move past. You cannot move past murder. Because you're fucking dead.

That's why I will never see eye-to-eye with feminists who claim that rape is equal to or worse than murder.

Is death, objectively, the absolute *worst* thing that can happen to a person? Theoretically, all manner of suffering can simply be 'moved past'. Yet, people still commit suicide to be free of suffering. People still go to war rather than lose their freedom to a foreign power (even though in many cases their lives will be preserved if they simply surrender). Why do people risk death in order to escape subjugation?

http://getcfit.files.wordpress.com/2012 ... plate2.jpg

Freedom isn't just a state of having personal liberty. It's also about being free from suffering. And for some - rape, disability, and so on, is a lot worse than death. Death = freedom.

another lurker
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#4602

Post by another lurker »

And now I notice my grammatical errors. You know what's weird? I will sit there, with the preview button in front of me, analyzing the writing. And I won't be able to find any errors, and if I do, I won't be able to think of a way to fix them. Mental block btw. So I'm like fuck it, bad writing be damned, hit submit!

And then a few minutes later I will suddenly get an epiphany and notice all of the errors and know exactly how to fix them, but no edit button! :(((

I need a hug.

James Caruthers
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#4603

Post by James Caruthers »

No hugs for you unicorn rainbow cat, but cyber tugs are always available whether you want them or not.

another lurker
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#4604

Post by another lurker »

James Caruthers wrote:No hugs for you unicorn rainbow cat, but cyber tugs are always available whether you want them or not.
You couldn't even find the time to fat-shame my avatar? Misogynist!

JackSkeptic
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#4605

Post by JackSkeptic »

James Caruthers wrote:I've heard of many past rape victims who hate SJW feminists, and they claim that the hysterical overreaction to rape can harm the road to recovery for actual survivors of rape. By both constantly talking about rape (trivializing the meaning of the word by associating it with lesser crimes and even some activities which are not crimes) while maintaining a hysterical, hilarious over-reaction to the impact of the crime on the victim, the SJWs make rape out to be both incredibly common and WORSE THAN DEATH OMG UR GONNA GET RAEPED RIGHT NAO WITHOUT FEMINISM AND U CAN NEVAR HEAL!

Whereas many men and women who have been raped got over it and moved on with their lives. It's empowering to be told that what happened to you, while bad and not your fault, is something you can move past. You cannot move past murder. Because you're fucking dead.

That's why I will never see eye-to-eye with feminists who claim that rape is equal to or worse than murder.
The last thing SJW's want is any form of healing. They want perpetual wallowing in misery for themselves and everyone else. This is well illustrated by the rape victim who visited A+ and said they were happy they were not murdered instead and that they were trying to recover and move on. Oh dear, bad move. That person was attacked, abused and then banned. SJW's do considerable emotional harm to others and I have never once heard any of them suggest someone get professional help for the distress they are in.

Even when they do get professional help it is just to try and get confirmation that they have been damaged in some way (I have PTSD like symptoms... wooopeeee!!!!!) so they can use that as an excuse to be vile and vindictive whenever they want and wave it around as a badge of honour while using it as a method to shut down anyone who disagrees with them.

Myers blog and others like them cause considerable emotional damage, all in the name of his religion. There is more kindness and genuine empathy in one days posts at the Slympit than a year on his narcissistic self pity wallowing hole.

Dick Strawkins
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#4606

Post by Dick Strawkins »

Even though we tend to dismiss a lot of Ophelia's preoccupations, I share her love of the Jesus and Mo series. There's been a big row about this in the UK in the past couple of weeks that has resulted in it being dragged into the news media in a big way.
The 'artist' or (author) behind the series was even interviewed by Jeremy Paxman the other night on Newsnight.

[youtube]JETbhvU2BYw[/youtube]

Although I'm a fan of 'author', I didn't think it was that great an interview - he missed a great opportunity when Paxman put to him the point that many people are offended by his cartoons so why doesn't he stop doing it. I think author could have made the point that many people are also offended by women going out uncovered, or working, or even talking to men who are not their relatives. Many people are offended by others drinking alcohol. We know these things offend others and yet we still do it because we think that the demand that we stop is unreasonable. It is the same thing with the Jesus and Mo cartoon.

Basically the story behind the current kerfuffle is that a muslim member of the liberal democrat political party claimed that he was not offended by the Jesus and Mo cartoons - which resulted in him being targeted by all the screaming fundies. It has also exposed the fact that the media is still completely terrified by islamicist threats - they showed a picture of the Jesus and Mo cartoon with Mo obscured by a giant black egg!
And as usual, the SJW brigade is keeping quiet to avoid accusations of islamophobia - they would rather side with extreme fundies than get accused of that.

SoylentAtheist

Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#4607

Post by SoylentAtheist »

Dick Strawkins wrote:Although I'm a fan of 'author', I didn't think it was that great an interview - he missed a great opportunity when Paxman put to him the point that many people are offended by his cartoons so why doesn't he stop doing it. I think author could have...
Yup. Hindsight = 20/20
Someone who isn't used to doing media interviews isn't exactly going to do a great job their first time round. Experience helps.
Dick Strawkins wrote:It has also exposed the fact that the media is still completely terrified by islamicist threats - they showed a picture of the Jesus and Mo cartoon with Mo obscured by a giant black egg!
The cartoonist himself was also obscured by his own big black fuzzy egg of sorts, with speech diddling to boot.

Beta Neckbeard
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#4608

Post by Beta Neckbeard »

Dick Strawkins wrote:...they showed a picture of the Jesus and Mo cartoon with Mo obscured by a giant black egg!
http://www.jesusandmo.net/strips/2014-01-29.png

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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#4609

Post by Dick Strawkins »

SoylentAtheist wrote:
Dick Strawkins wrote:Although I'm a fan of 'author', I didn't think it was that great an interview - he missed a great opportunity when Paxman put to him the point that many people are offended by his cartoons so why doesn't he stop doing it. I think author could have...
Yup. Hindsight = 20/20
Someone who isn't used to doing media interviews isn't exactly going to do a great job their first time round. Experience helps.

I guessed the same.
Author is a smart guy as you can see from his cartoons. I bet he's kicking himself now about that one.

rayshul
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#4610

Post by rayshul »

Steersman wrote:Sort of the problem with Marxism that was highlighted by that quote I provided of E.O. Wilson – his view, as a biologist who had spent a great amount of time studing ants and other social animals and insects, was that Marxism was a “wonderful theory, [but was applied to the] wrong species” – humans instead of ants – and that it was starting off from some erroneous premises about the nature of human nature. And the results have kind of proved him right.

But it also highlights the rather problematic fact that great swaths of sociology, of SJL-speak, seem to be undergirded by that same highly questionable Marxism and sociology. But that book of Pinker's - The Blank Slate - lays out that argument in far more detail and depth than I can manage if you wanted some of that background.
Ah yes. I read Pinker as you linked and thought it was very good.

Jan Steen
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#4611

Post by Jan Steen »


ROBOKiTTY
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#4612

Post by ROBOKiTTY »

From what I've read, it's also conceivable that the disproportionate level of trauma that rape induces in many could have had an adaptive origin: for women, the negative emotions might render them less fit mothers to rape-conceived children, thus reducing making rape a less effective reproductive strategy. On the other hand, because of asymmetrical reproductive investments, there would have been no need and no selectional pressure for a male coping mechanism.

As I've written before, I don't believe binary consent for sex is a sufficient model for maximal hjoomin happiness. The current binary system is akin to a free market, where it is simply assumed and asserted that market forces, as it were, will match supply with demand and create a sexually happy society. This naïve model ignores the fact that consent can be gradient (from Crystal Clear Consent to mere Enthusiastic Consent to Ehhh, fine... to Eww, but if I must all the way to Hell no! and Over my cold dead necrophile-bait body) and leaves out the reality that sexual selection alone will ensure that not all sexual demands are met.

And that breeds generation after generation of sexually frustrated individuals, mostly male. From them, and perhaps with a few greedy bastids amongst the reproductively successful ones, we get rapists and others who try to cheat 'the system'. Now, even though by now I probably sound like a thoroughgoing rape apologist, I still say that rape is a bad thing because it causes pain and suffering. I'm simply unconvinced that treating rape as one of the worst fates that could befall anyone is a good idea. I have some ideas on how we might make things better, some of which I've mentioned in the past, but a problem of this magnitude is something hjoomin societies need to come together and work out collectively, cultural taboos be damned.

zenbabe
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#4613

Post by zenbabe »

rayshul wrote:

RAHAHAH
Btw, I tweeted that link earlier, and someone just sent back the author's reply to the (inevitable) SJW attacks:
http://chaoslife.findchaos.com/societys-new-rules

paddybrown
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#4614

Post by paddybrown »

James Caruthers wrote:One can only hope that someday feminists will realize that women freely choosing to work easier jobs that pay less is not oppression.
And notice they're able to do so because they're subsidised from male earnings, to the extent that despite earning less they're able to spend more than we do. Men have to earn more, because we have an unofficial woman tax to pay. And as the gap gets smaller, we get more and more books and articles in the media by women about men not living up to their responsibilities, being obsolete, experiencing "failure to launch" and so on.

paddybrown
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#4615

Post by paddybrown »

AndrewV69 wrote: One example for instance is where Dalrock opines about aging feminist Liz Jones which he titled A post-marital spinster’s rationalization hamster in the final stages of exhaustion.
To be fair to feminists, feminism is not a notable part of Liz Jones' schtick. She's a misery-memoir columnist.

zenbabe
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#4616

Post by zenbabe »

:D

They're so cute, then so -weird-, then so cute again.
BilBy
Posted January 29, 2014 at 6:42 pm | Permalink

Rather cool how they bring their limbs in and lift their heads just before landing. @ OgreMkV – the ‘lack of bladder control’ may be similar behaviour to that of lesser bushbabies (and other galagos) that pee on their hands and feet and run about leaving scent trails. I knew someone in South Africa who was rehabilitating an injured one and it would sit in the corner of the room, up high, fix you with an unwinking stare, pee on his little hands and then launch himself unerringly at your face. They seem less cute when they do that.
:lol:
Thanks for the link, Jan

Steersman
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#4617

Post by Steersman »

Dick Strawkins wrote:Even though we tend to dismiss a lot of Ophelia's preoccupations, I share her love of the Jesus and Mo series. There's been a big row about this in the UK in the past couple of weeks that has resulted in it being dragged into the news media in a big way.
The 'artist' or (author) behind the series was even interviewed by Jeremy Paxman the other night on Newsnight.

[.youtube]JETbhvU2BYw[/youtube]
<snip>
Basically the story behind the current kerfuffle is that a muslim member of the liberal democrat political party claimed that he was not offended by the Jesus and Mo cartoons - which resulted in him being targeted by all the screaming fundies. It has also exposed the fact that the media is still completely terrified by islamicist threats - they showed a picture of the Jesus and Mo cartoon with Mo obscured by a giant black egg!
And as usual, the SJW brigade is keeping quiet to avoid accusations of islamophobia - they would rather side with extreme fundies than get accused of that.
Indeed. For something different from Pinker, the last chapter in Ibn Warraq’s Why I Am Not a Muslim – titled Islam in the the West – continues on with an elaboration of the theme he broached in the first chapter with a discussion of the book La Trahison des Clercs [The Betrayal by the Intellectuals] at which point Warraq argued:
This book is first and foremost an assertion of my right to criticize everything and anything in Islam even to blaspheme, to make errors, to satirize, and mock. Muslims and non-Muslims have the right to critically examine the sources, the history, and dogma of Islam. Muslims avail themselves of the right to criticize in their frequent denunciations of Western culture, in terms that would have been deemed racist, neocolonialist, or imperialist had a European directed them against Islam. Without criticism, Islam will remain unassailed in its dogmatic, fanatical, medieval fortress; ossified in its totalitarian, intolerant, paranoid past. It will continue to stifle thought, human rights, individuality, originality, and truth.
And that last chapter discusses in further detail the betrayals – as far as Islam is concerned and particularly in Britain – by politicians, educators, and additional ones by intellectuals, largely in the furtherance of “multiculturalism”. Which is maybe a good idea in principle but not when we bend over backwards to “positively supine lengths”. But “a letter from a prospective Labor parliamentary candidate, published in the British daily newspaper The Daily Telegraph of December 31, 1990” is, I think, illustrative of the depth and scope of the problem, a repudiation of many fundamental principles of democracy:
As a nation we have extended to fundamentalist Islam a tolerance which as you rightly state (editorial, Dec 28), we would never extend to any other religious group and which is contrary to all the principles on which our freedom is based. The question must be: why have we done this? Blame can be laid squarely at the doors of both the Government and the parliamentary Labour Party and leadership; the former perhaps mostly for reasons of trade, the latter for electoral advantage.

I will leave it to Conservatives to deal with the motives of their party leadership; as one who was a Labour candidate in the last general election, I express my shame and regret at the way the Labour party has behaved in putting votes before democratic principles.

In numerous constituencies it is believed that fundamentalist Islam can manipulate the outcome of an election. A decision must have been made that freedom of speech take second place to electoral success; that not to antagonize certain fundamentalist Moslems is more important than the life of Salman Rushdie. The leadership has therefore kept quiet and, in doing so, has prostituted for votes the most basic principles of life and liberty. In the event of Labour coming to power, it has put itself in danger of creating the equivalent of the Jewish vote in the United States.

Now we, in this country, are in grave danger of seeing the Labour party serving the whim of what is, though numerically a tiny section of the electorate, one that is strategically positioned and ruthless enough to utilize its influence solely to its own advantage.

I never thought I would work for more than 20 years for the principles of the Labour movement before witnessing its leadership and parliamentary party abandoning some of them so shamelessly in order to achieve ephemeral electoral success. Michael Knowles.
But Warraq also had an earlier comment which seems to summarize the nature of the problem:
Warraq wrote:A report on Muslim attitudes to education in Britain, prepared by the Islamic Academy, Cambridge, and the Islamic Cultural Centre, London, makes it clear that Muslims are not happy about the secular approach to education. Muslims want to keep their basic, Islamic values, which are threatened by the values of the host community, even if it means disobeying the laws of Britain.
Seems to me that if push-comes-to-shove, as seems to be the direction things are developing in, and Muslims insist on attempting to impose their “Islamic values” on the rest of the society, values that Warraq rather convincingly demonstrates are antithetical to the principles of democracy, then they should be or will be given the choice between repudiating those values – as happened in Spain some 600 years ago – or being declared “persona non grata” and being deported forthwith.

James Caruthers
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#4618

Post by James Caruthers »

another lurker wrote:
James Caruthers wrote:No hugs for you unicorn rainbow cat, but cyber tugs are always available whether you want them or not.
You couldn't even find the time to fat-shame my avatar? Misogynist!
Fat pussy is too arousing, sorry. I was too busy thinking about raping you.

Care for a bottomless glass of wine and a ride in my elevator?

James Caruthers
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#4619

Post by James Caruthers »

paddybrown wrote:
James Caruthers wrote:One can only hope that someday feminists will realize that women freely choosing to work easier jobs that pay less is not oppression.
And notice they're able to do so because they're subsidised from male earnings, to the extent that despite earning less they're able to spend more than we do. Men have to earn more, because we have an unofficial woman tax to pay. And as the gap gets smaller, we get more and more books and articles in the media by women about men not living up to their responsibilities, being obsolete, experiencing "failure to launch" and so on.
Yeah, but really, let them. Let them! Let the (lazy, useless, spoiled) women bitch about losing their undeserved advantages all they want. Let them complain that men nowadays don't want to foot the entire bill for dating, or that men have hobbies which have nothing to do with them (like video games, omg so horrible if a man likes gaming!) Let whiners have their freeze peach, it's not hurting me none. Shamers can only hurt you if you let them change you.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/04/opinion/b ... &hpt=hp_c2
^Cry moar, bitch. Your tears taste delicious and go perfectly with my Dark Souls gaming session.

The best response is the mgtow response. No, not curling up in the fetal position and crying about gynocracy in an attempt to garner reverse victim status, I mean the other mgtow response! :lol:

Stop giving a fuck. Men need to stop caring when facing these shaming tactics, because men get shamed constantly by these sorts of people (traditionalist men and women, plus feminists) for practically everything. I think a lot of guys are responding with an unconscious "fuck you, I do what I want" reaction to this bullshit, even if they don't identify as MRA in any way. I've got a buddy of mine like that, and I've always resisted marriage and kids, myself. Let whiny people have their petulant complaining sessions about how men aren't "manning up" to pay for them in perpetuity for the rest of their lives. My response will be to tell them to place their plush posteriors on my extended middle digit and rotate 360 degrees repeatedly until they achieve enlightenment.
[youtube]vFyVZpjOkks[/youtube]
[youtube]cpn7zbo0DYQ[/youtube]

Scented Nectar
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Re: Mykeru, what a Cnut, eh? Discuss.

#4620

Post by Scented Nectar »

John Greg wrote:So, John D, if I understand you correctly, you're saying that to save Free Speech we must first destroy Free Speech.

Hmm.

OK.

Whatever.
Speech is one thing, but promoting stealing and vandalism online, and then possibly doing it himself, is another thing.

Locked