Bleeding from the Bunghole

[yomomma]

I understand that yomomma was discussing her moral qualms with 3rd trimester abortion for reasons separate of health risks or rape.

Yes, codelette. You understand correctly and thank you. I was almost ready to search for a head pounding a brick wall emoticon.

[Steersman]

Right. And we should all be rich and live forever - or as long as we want. "Is" - "reality" - very frequently trumps "ought"; refusing to recognize that difference tends to qualify as having one's head in the sand, as being unrealistic if not deluded.

Yes, so the question is, in order to make things 'fair' should we force women to have babies because men are still subject to the draft in certain circumstances?

I really didn’t say that – you’re creating a strawman.

I’m just trying to suggest that a woman’s right to an abortion isn’t some sort of absolute inscribed as an eleventh commandment brought down by Moses from Mt. Sinai. Which is the way you seem to be phrasing it.

I quite agree with you that women should have that right – within some set of debatable constraints and limitations – viability being an apparently reasonable one. It really is, I think, quite justified if they feel they are unable or unwilling to pay the necessary physical, moral and psychological costs. However, “on demand and free”? Considering the rather large number of them, and the presumed cost and load on the medical system they entail, that at least seems somewhat questionable.

[another lurker]

I understand that yomomma was discussing her moral qualms with 3rd trimester abortion for reasons separate of health risks or rape.

Yes, codelette. You understand correctly and thank you. I was almost ready to search for a head pounding a brick wall emoticon.

Is that why you said that women who choose not to get pregnant out of fear of health/death were irrational?

And haven't you been arguing all this time that pregnancy is NOT a health condition, so even a 1st trimester abortion for 'that reason' is irrational and stupid?

[bhoytony]

Everybody is ignoring the most positive result of all these abortions. Less children, that's got to be a good thing. Horrible little fuckers.

[Gefan]

I'm suddenly nostalgic for nails and screwdrivers.

Which is better for performing an abortion?

Discuss.

[another lurker]

Right. And we should all be rich and live forever - or as long as we want. "Is" - "reality" - very frequently trumps "ought"; refusing to recognize that difference tends to qualify as having one's head in the sand, as being unrealistic if not deluded.

Yes, so the question is, in order to make things 'fair' should we force women to have babies because men are still subject to the draft in certain circumstances?

I really didn’t say that – you’re creating a strawman.

I’m just trying to suggest that a woman’s right to an abortion isn’t some sort of absolute inscribed as an eleventh commandment brought down by Moses from Mt. Sinai. Which is the way you seem to be phrasing it.

I quite agree with you that women should have that right – within some set of debatable constraints and limitations – viability being an apparently reasonable one. It really is, I think, quite justified if they feel they are unable or unwilling to pay the necessary physical, moral and psychological costs. However, “on demand and free”? Considering the rather large number of them, and the presumed cost and load on the medical system they entail, that at least seems somewhat questionable.

I have heard people argue that pregnancy should be forced because 'taxation = slavery'. So, I think the question is valid. *How* do we make things fair?

Does the right to life trump all other rights?

and

The US Supreme Court did the smart thing and compromised. As the fetus becomes viable, it's rights start to outweigh the woman's.

Abortion is cheaper than pregnancy and childbirth. Also, sex education, free contraception etc, all work to cut down on the # of abortions. The very people who cannot afford to have more children are often the very people who cannot afford contraception, or even abortion in certain circumstances. In Canada, and most of Europe, abortion is government funded. Remember - if abortion is banned, only low income women will suffer. Rich and middle class can just take a trip somewhere. Also, government funded abortion allows women to access *early* abortion, when it really is just a 'clump of cells'. Monsters like Gosnell were created because women who could not afford a 1st trimester abortion didn't have enough money until they were in the third trimester.

[The Worst Guy]

I understand that yomomma was discussing her moral qualms with 3rd trimester abortion for reasons separate of health risks or rape.

Yes, codelette. You understand correctly and thank you. I was almost ready to search for a head pounding a brick wall emoticon.

I suspect most people share those moral qualms. If a woman is nine and a half months pregnant and decides she can't be bothered giving birth, 99 percent of us will be revolted and horrified and consider this woman an inhuman monster. Morally, it's reprehensible. Legally, it must be allowed.

[another lurker]

I'm suddenly nostalgic for nails and screwdrivers.

Which is better for performing an abortion?

Discuss.

http://drjengunter.wordpress.com/2013/0 ... -abortion/

[AndrewV69]

I understand that yomomma was discussing her moral qualms with 3rd trimester abortion for reasons separate of health risks or rape.

That was my understanding also. Anyway, I was going to point out that in Canada we have what I consider largely to be a better systemin that:

abortion is regulated like any other medical procedure and treated as a private matter between a woman and her doctor. Indeed, it is designated “medically necessary” under the Canada Health Act, obliging provinces to fund the procedure.

Also see Wikipedia.

Mind we do have issues with the current system. If you follow the first link you will see issues in some areas to access and apparently RU486 is not licensed for use here.

Also another issue appears to be where the "pro life" camp used a statistic to create an issue without apparently understanding the basis (perhaps deliberately?) Live-birth abortions a perilous grey zone in Canada’s criminal code

“This is a quirk of Canadian law … all of us would like to see changes to the law that would not necessitate these live birth and death certificates, but until that happens we’re stuck with that number,” said Dr. Black.

[dogen]

[youtube]J2h4vITidvo[/youtube]

What's the main point of that video? It got me extremely bored. I don't really care about "Mr Bagget" or some "handwriting seminars" or crap like that.

Indeed, the video takes quite a while to get to the point, but it does get there in the end. To whit, Anita has almost no background or genuine interest in feminist activism. Rather, she is just a pretty face for pushing the feminist agenda of a male svengali figure.

[dogen]

@JackRayner:

A bikini combat suit is retarded. She's just presented as eye candy since there is no logical reason to create a bikini combat outfit with stockings. Stockings. Those things rip when you put them on. I guess she's only missing combat high heels. Also, the point is not banning the shitty portrayal of women but rather to criticize them and to force the game developers not to make ridiculous character design concepts.

....none of which is specific to women.

https://www.google.com/search?q=rambo&u ... kQXP8IHwCQ

https://www.google.com/search?q=arnold+ ... kwW2oICwBQ

http://www.bluesnews.com/screenshots/ut ... allery.jpg

And so on an so forth.

Characters are supposed to be larger than life, practicality is not necessary or even relevant. Cmon this isn't hard to understand.

Yes, I'm not denying that. Both men and women can have sexy hot bodies which when presented can help sell a product. And it would be hyportical of most people if they deny that they enjoy looking at hot bodies. The point is that one can present the hot bodies in a stupid way (e.g., bikini combat suit) or in a tasteful/thoughtful way.

Morrigan is a mage so she doesn't need armor and her outfit can reflect that:

http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/5749/morrigan2.jpg

Aveline on the other hand is a tank so her armor reflects that:

http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/ ... 3c4f1g.png

Yay, armor for a woman that isn't boob plate!

http://www.tor.com/blogs/2013/05/boob-p ... d-kill-you

[codelette]

I decided to terminate a 10 week pregnancy out of fear of health/death. It was an irrational fear as I had no risks and I'm a healthy young woman. I hate going to the doctor. No. I don't regret it.
Like yomomma, I am also conflicted about third trimester abortions performed on a perfectly viable fetus for not other reason than saving mother's life and/or rape. As I understand that it is a woman's decision I also feel queasy about the skull crushing. Just goes to show how gray some issues are...

[AndrewV69]

However, “on demand and free”? Considering the rather large number of them, and the presumed cost and load on the medical system they entail, that at least seems somewhat questionable.

But that is the system we have in Canukistan for the most part apparently.

BTW, one data point. I got the impression talking to a nurse at our local hospital that she was disgusted as what she saw as an abuse of the system by some women.

She appeared to believe that there were a few, who were in fact utilizing abortion as a means of birth control, and cited some who were showing up for their third and forth procedure.

(yes she was a tad irate).

[another lurker]

I decided to terminate a 10 week pregnancy out of fear of health/death. It was an irrational fear as I had no risks and I'm a healthy young woman. I hate going to the doctor. No. I don't regret it.
Like yomomma, I am also conflicted about third trimester abortions performed on a perfectly viable fetus for not other reason than saving mother's life and/or rape. As I understand that it is a woman's decision I also feel queasy about the skull crushing. Just goes to show how gray some issues are...

Just because you don't have any health risks at 10 weeks doesn't mean that something bad won't happen as the pregnancy progresses. It really all comes down to potential, after all - and how much risk you are willing to take on.

Why should rape change things? Does a fetus created through rape have less of a right to life than one created through consensual sex?

Partial birth abortion - which is now banned - so they take the fetus out in chunks instead - was used by doctors because it results in less trauma for the woman *and* the fetus. Late term abortions are extremely dangerous and are performed due to medical emergency. Removing the fetus whole, so the family can hold it in their arms, and say goodbye, is quite soothing to some vs. removing it in chunks.

No sane woman is going to have an abortion at 30 weeks for shits and giggles. These abortions are on wanted babies, pregnancies gone wrong, and it is incredibly tragic when it happens.

[Steersman]

<snip>
I’m just trying to suggest that a woman’s right to an abortion isn’t some sort of absolute inscribed as an eleventh commandment brought down by Moses from Mt. Sinai. Which is the way you seem to be phrasing it.

I quite agree with you that women should have that right – within some set of debatable constraints and limitations – viability being an apparently reasonable one. It really is, I think, quite justified if they feel they are unable or unwilling to pay the necessary physical, moral and psychological costs. However, “on demand and free”? Considering the rather large number of them, and the presumed cost and load on the medical system they entail, that at least seems somewhat questionable.

I have heard people argue that pregnancy should be forced because 'taxation = slavery'. So, I think the question is valid. *How* do we make things fair?

I'm certainly not arguing for forced pregnancy. "Fairness" is indeed the crux of the matter - as it apparently is in most questions of morality.

Does the right to life trump all other rights?

Whose other rights? As in that recent travesty of justice and empathy where a woman died in childbirth in Ireland brought to us courtesy of the Catholic Church? No question, in my mind at least. Unfortunately, or not, there are very frequently sticky exceptions to virtually any rule you can imagine. Trying to ignore that seems to qualify as dogmaticism which tends not to help matters much.

and

The US Supreme Court did the smart thing and compromised. As the fetus becomes viable, it's rights start to outweigh the woman's.

Yes, quite agree. But they, you might notice, did not make a woman's right to an abortion any type of absolute. That's the bailiwick of the Catholic Church - and their ilk.

Abortion is cheaper than pregnancy and childbirth. Also, sex education, free contraception etc, all work to cut down on the # of abortions. The very people who cannot afford to have more children are often the very people who cannot afford contraception, or even abortion in certain circumstances.

Yes, I'll agree with you there - the long term costs to society for children which their parents cannot support probably outweigh the costs of abortion. But your case - "those who cannot afford ..." - is not the entire population; seems that "user-pay" should have some bearing. Seems to me that inferring or suggesting that that "cannot afford" subsection is the entire population qualifies as stereotyping and strawmanning.

In Canada, and most of Europe, abortion is government funded. Remember - if abortion is banned, only low income women will suffer.

True. But "goverment funded" is still out of our pockets - the "government" isn't some separate autonomous entity. I'm certainly not arguing that abortion should be banned - at most that those able to pay more for them should be obliged to do so.

[Trophy]

Wow. If you think the days still exist where even a unique and extremely talented and experienced individual could actually create and successfully produce a video game still exist, I want whatever drugs you're using; they must be fun.

Game production is a highly formulaic, extremely expensive corporate venture. The days of a handful of talented kids sitting in their basement producing qualty material are long, long gone.

In that sense, the video game industry is precisely like the music industry: individual skill and talent are meaningless, utterly meaningless. It is a corporate machine now.

lol.

http://stardewvalley.net/

lol. I agree. John Greg's post is perfect for trolling (no offense):

http://i.imgur.com/EQf7QAl.jpg

[yomomma]

I suspect most people share those moral qualms. If a woman is nine and a half months pregnant and decides she can't be bothered giving birth, 99 percent of us will be revolted and horrified and consider this woman an inhuman monster. Morally, it's reprehensible. Legally, it must be allowed.

In the majority of U.S. states, post viability abortions are illegal outside of life threatening reasons for mom or baby. Despite what some people think here, simply being pregnant in and of itself is not necessarily life threatening. Even in very liberal states, like California and Illinois.

[James Caruthers]

Anita seems to want to abolish all portrayals of women in games that she does not approve of, and replace them with those she likes. Same for game genres, actually, I remember hearing she dislikes violent action games. Well, that's pretty cisgendered of her re: video games, isn't it? I know a few women who play all the violent games that boys do.

The way Anita wants to change the games industry is the same way Becky wants to change atheism. If either succeed, people in those areas will no longer be able to express themselves with nuanced, complicated statements. Everything will be reduced to the absurdity of "sexist" and "not-sexist" and anything labeled sexist will be a license to get the creator of the statement/game fired and to drag his/her name through the muck.

A game can be both sexist and still worth playing. A book can be sexist and still worth reading. I thought we would have learned this from english literature. Let's not throw the baby of artistic expression out with the bathwater of skimpy clothing. :lol:

[The Worst Guy]

In the majority of U.S. states, post viability abortions are illegal outside of life threatening reasons for mom or baby.

And that's horrible. That's my point.

[AndrewV69]

I decided to terminate a 10 week pregnancy out of fear of health/death. It was an irrational fear as I had no risks and I'm a healthy young woman. I hate going to the doctor. No. I don't regret it.
Like yomomma, I am also conflicted about third trimester abortions performed on a perfectly viable fetus for not other reason than saving mother's life and/or rape. As I understand that it is a woman's decision I also feel queasy about the skull crushing. Just goes to show how gray some issues are...

This is the problem with some issues I found. You never really know sometimes how you are going to react till you are actually in the situation yourself.

Easy enough to judge if you have never actually been there. I am a lot less judgemental today than when I was a teenager.

I can tell you that life can give you some very harsh lessons, but you get the exam first and the lesson afterwards and sometimes no amount of prep time can help you when it comes down to the crunch.

Judge not, that ye be not judged.
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Matthew 7:1-5

[another lurker]

Despite what some people think here, simply being pregnant in and of itself is not necessarily life threatening.

Nobody said *that*. What I have been saying all along, and what you refuse to acknowledge is that 1) pregnancy is a health condition 2) only the pregnant woman can assess the attendant health risks (no matter how minor).

If a woman wants to get an early abortion because she is afraid of morning sickness, that''s her right.
If a woman wants to get an early abortion because birth scares the shit out of her, that's her right.
If a woman wants to get an early abortion because she cannot afford another child, that's her right.
If a woman is worried that she might be one of the 800 who die per year, that's her right.

It's *that* simple. Really. Just because you believe that pregnancy is all sunshine and roses does not mean that everyone else shares your views, or should be forced to abide by them.

[dogen]

Watson has a post up on how she is not terrible to kids, as a counter-point to what Mayhew was saying on Twatter. Except that her story validates what Sara said, and then theres that tiny thing we all got to witness, which was Twatson being a massive bitch to some kids in front of all their friends during her student leadership conference 'speech'.

Mayhew is the dumbest person in Twitter, according to Watson, but even she knows Watson is a terrible role model. So how dumb does Watson think her readers are?

Linky dinky?

[yomomma]

Is that why you said that women who choose not to get pregnant out of fear of health/death were irrational?

Nah. That's an entirely different argument. If fear of death is your ONLY reason for not wanting to get pregnant (in an otherwise healthy adult), yeah, that's really irrational. It's irrational like having a fear of flying is irrational.

And haven't you been arguing all this time that pregnancy is NOT a health condition, so even a 1st trimester abortion for 'that reason' is irrational and stupid?

If that's your ONLY reason and it's not substantiated by anything but your fear, then yeah, that's completely irrational.

[another lurker]

Is that why you said that women who choose not to get pregnant out of fear of health/death were irrational?

Nah. That's an entirely different argument. If fear of death is your ONLY reason for not wanting to get pregnant (in an otherwise healthy adult), yeah, that's really irrational. It's irrational like having a fear of flying is irrational.

And haven't you been arguing all this time that pregnancy is NOT a health condition, so even a 1st trimester abortion for 'that reason' is irrational and stupid?

If that's your ONLY reason and it's not substantiated by anything but your fear, then yeah, that's completely irrational.

It's substantiated by all of the side effects that I listed by the CDC and the like that I presented you with. Tell me, is giving birth pleasant? Is it pleasant for all women? Is 72 hours spent in labour fun? How about morning sickness? How about limited mobility as the pregnancy progresses? All of those are valid reasons to get an early term abortion.

[yomomma]

Despite what some people think here, simply being pregnant in and of itself is not necessarily life threatening.

Nobody said *that*. What I have been saying all along, and what you refuse to acknowledge is that 1) pregnancy is a health condition 2) only the pregnant woman can assess the attendant health risks (no matter how minor).

If a woman wants to get an early abortion because she is afraid of morning sickness, that''s her right.
If a woman wants to get an early abortion because birth scares the shit out of her, that's her right.
If a woman wants to get an early abortion because she cannot afford another child, that's her right.
If a woman is worried that she might be one of the 800 who die per year, that's her right.

It's *that* simple. Really. Just because you believe that pregnancy is all sunshine and roses does not mean that everyone else shares your views, or should be forced to abide by them.

I'm not arguing any of that. Just because I think someone has a stupid reason for aborting pre-viability, doesn't mean that they shouldn't or can't. I may think it's shitty, but I support the right none the less.

I think if a woman decides to abort based on any of the reasons you listed above, post-viability, then her rights should stop there. As I've stated over and over, I think once a baby can have a quality of life outside the womb, their rights are just as important as the mothers.

And I don't think pregnancy is sunshine and roses. I hated being pregnant, but I didn't think I was going to die just because I was pregnant and anybody who uses THAT as an excuse to abort a viable, specifically, after 24 weeks gestation, is an inhumane asshole unless they have some serious mental health issues. I would think abortions in the third trimester are risky too. I'll have to look that up.

[another lurker]

Oh, and since everyone here might not be interested in the tired worn out subject of abortion, I have created a new thread for it:

viewtopic.php?f=29&t=362

If this is going to go on any longer, it would probably be nice not to annoy the main forum with the subject.

[Suet Cardigan]

Watson has a post up on how she is not terrible to kids, as a counter-point to what Mayhew was saying on Twatter. Except that her story validates what Sara said, and then theres that tiny thing we all got to witness, which was Twatson being a massive bitch to some kids in front of all their friends during her student leadership conference 'speech'.

Mayhew is the dumbest person in Twitter, according to Watson, but even she knows Watson is a terrible role model. So how dumb does Watson think her readers are?

Linky dinky?

Dumbest person on Twitter tweet -

http://richardreed84.wordpress.com/2013 ... ca-watson/

[windy]

http://www.harrisonline.com/GRAPHICS/hairball.jpg

Henry Coffer is the only barber in Charleston, Missouri, and may be the only hair collector in the entire state. He's been saving the hair he cuts off customers' heads for several years and adding them to the hairball that he hopes will put him in the Guinness book. Until then, he keeps adding to the 167-pound mass, which sits in the bed of his pickup truck.

http://paulharrisonline.blogspot.com/20 ... rball.html

http://thumbs3.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/ ... idFbNw.jpg

Incidentally, Daz sure has his priorities straight. He has time to check his traffic, read our discussion about his error, write a two paragraph rant-edit on the blogpost (with a link to the 'Pit! :D) about how we are "complete fucking wankers"

To be fair, that seems about right -- #sexpositivity

[Trophy]

By the way, Jerry Coyne's latest post on Dawkins make me giddy.

I do think it would be best for Richard to lay off the Twitter. If there’s one thing I’ve learned after years of writing, both here and in popular magazines, it’s that you should not respond to criticism in all but the most severe cases. In certain quarters even an apology is sufficient to damn you even more severely.

[dogen]

Is that why you said that women who choose not to get pregnant out of fear of health/death were irrational?

Nah. That's an entirely different argument. If fear of death is your ONLY reason for not wanting to get pregnant (in an otherwise healthy adult), yeah, that's really irrational. It's irrational like having a fear of flying is irrational.

And haven't you been arguing all this time that pregnancy is NOT a health condition, so even a 1st trimester abortion for 'that reason' is irrational and stupid?

If that's your ONLY reason and it's not substantiated by anything but your fear, then yeah, that's completely irrational.

But irrational /= stupid. I have phobias that are completely irrational. But at the same time I'm a fucking genius.

[yomomma]

Oh, and since everyone here might not be interested in the tired worn out subject of abortion, I have created a new thread for it:

viewtopic.php?f=29&t=362

If this is going to go on any longer, it would probably be nice not to annoy the main forum with the subject.

That's fine. I have to leave for work here in a few minutes, so I'll be incommicado for a few days.

Thanks another lurker. I still think we're having a good debate, even if it has been a little heated.

Have a good one.

[Søren Lilholt]

It is considered completely moral for 60year old men to marry 12 year olds - heck, even 9 year olds, in most of the Middle East, Africa and parts of Asia. Hanging gay men is also considered completely moral in Iran. So who is correct? If we base our laws on morality eh?

Anyone who sanctions the rape if children or the execution of homosexuals does not have he first clue what morality is.

'Morality' and 'mores' are not the same thing.

[yomomma]

But irrational /= stupid. I have phobias that are completely irrational. But at the same time I'm a fucking genius.

I have a phobia of roller coasters. A lot of people would say that's irrational and I don't care.

I wonder what the fear of being pregnant is called.

Being afraid of roller coasters is called "coasterphobia." Not very original, huh?

[Steersman]

However, “on demand and free”? Considering the rather large number of them, and the presumed cost and load on the medical system they entail, that at least seems somewhat questionable.

But that is the system we have in Canukistan for the most part apparently.

BTW, one data point. I got the impression talking to a nurse at our local hospital that she was disgusted as what she saw as an abuse of the system by some women.

She appeared to believe that there were a few, who were in fact utilizing abortion as a means of birth control, and cited some who were showing up for their third and forth procedure.

(yes she was a tad irate).

Indeed - quite understandable. But always going to be some cases of people scamming just about any system you can imagine. However, it seems there’s a trade-off there: the costs of going after the last scammer versus the benefits to be obtained thereby. Although this might be a stretch, somewhat of a conjecture or hypothesis, I think it is somewhat analogous to Carnot’s theorem for the “limits on the maximum efficiency of any heat engine” .... ;-)

[dogen]

By the way, Jerry Coyne's latest post on Dawkins make me giddy.

I do think it would be best for Richard to lay off the Twitter. If there’s one thing I’ve learned after years of writing, both here and in popular magazines, it’s that you should not respond to criticism in all but the most severe cases. In certain quarters even an apology is sufficient to damn you even more severely.

on4et.jpg

(174.96 KiB) Downloaded 219 times

[another lurker]

But irrational /= stupid. I have phobias that are completely irrational. But at the same time I'm a fucking genius.

I have a phobia of roller coasters. A lot of people would say that's irrational and I don't care.

I wonder what the fear of being pregnant is called.

Being afraid of roller coasters is called "coasterphobia." Not very original, huh?

Tokophobia.

And yes, third trimester abortions are extremely dangerous. Which is why they are done for medical emergency only.

[clownshoe]

Wow. If you think the days still exist where even a unique and extremely talented and experienced individual could actually create and successfully produce a video game still exist, I want whatever drugs you're using; they must be fun.

Game production is a highly formulaic, extremely expensive corporate venture. The days of a handful of talented kids sitting in their basement producing qualty material are long, long gone.

In that sense, the video game industry is precisely like the music industry: individual skill and talent are meaningless, utterly meaningless. It is a corporate machine now.

lol.

http://stardewvalley.net/

lol. I agree. John Greg's post is perfect for trolling (no offense):

http://i.imgur.com/EQf7QAl.jpg

I know someone who has a really successful game. They built the first version all themselves, it sold very well, and a community grew around the game. Now there are lots of people working on subsequent versions. The person who wrote the original game is still in charge.

There was a long period when it was incredibly difficult to break through, but now with the advent of mobile gaming, more and more talented independent developers are creating hugely successful games.

[dogen]

But irrational /= stupid. I have phobias that are completely irrational. But at the same time I'm a fucking genius.

I have a phobia of roller coasters. A lot of people would say that's irrational and I don't care.

I wonder what the fear of being pregnant is called.

Being afraid of roller coasters is called "coasterphobia." Not very original, huh?

I thought coasterphobia is what my house guests have when they decide to put a FUCKING WATER RING on my coffee table.

[yomomma]

It is considered completely moral for 60year old men to marry 12 year olds - heck, even 9 year olds, in most of the Middle East, Africa and parts of Asia. Hanging gay men is also considered completely moral in Iran. So who is correct? If we base our laws on morality eh?

Anyone who sanctions the rape if children or the execution of homosexuals does not have he first clue what morality is.

'Morality' and 'mores' are not the same thing.

Excellent point.

Okay, I've really gotta go now!

[deLurch]

Watson has a post up on how she is not terrible to kids, as a counter-point to what Mayhew was saying on Twatter. Except that her story validates what Sara said, and then theres that tiny thing we all got to witness, which was Twatson being a massive bitch to some kids in front of all their friends during her student leadership conference 'speech'.

Mayhew is the dumbest person in Twitter, according to Watson, but even she knows Watson is a terrible role model. So how dumb does Watson think her readers are?

Clearly Rebecca Watson did not think that Sarah Mayhew had done a sufficient job explaining how & why Rebecca Watson is such a shitty role model for young women, so she makes her best effort to illustrate her problem even further.

[Suet Cardigan]

For a while I've been trying to think of who Rebecca Watson reminded me of, and now I've remembered.
When I was a kid in the 70s, I used to watch a programme called The Singing Ringing Tree. The central character was a spoiled and selfish princess who looked like this:

https://www.tynesidecinema.co.uk/_site_ ... 91.334.jpg

Remind you of anyone?

[Trophy]

@Dogen:

The boob plate article was pretty good!

[Gumby]

Don't ask me why. I don't know. My brain just works funny sometimes, that's all.

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd24 ... 69d1c1.jpg

I lol'd. I don't get it, but i lol'd.

I don't get it either and I made the fucking thing. How sad is that? :lol:

[ERV]

Watson has a post up on how she is not terrible to kids, as a counter-point to what Mayhew was saying on Twatter. Except that her story validates what Sara said, and then theres that tiny thing we all got to witness, which was Twatson being a massive bitch to some kids in front of all their friends during her student leadership conference 'speech'.

Mayhew is the dumbest person in Twitter, according to Watson, but even she knows Watson is a terrible role model. So how dumb does Watson think her readers are?

Linky dinky?

http://www.freezepage.com/1379365432AKGHPZIDMW

[Trophy]

Watson has a post up on how she is not terrible to kids, as a counter-point to what Mayhew was saying on Twatter. Except that her story validates what Sara said, and then theres that tiny thing we all got to witness, which was Twatson being a massive bitch to some kids in front of all their friends during her student leadership conference 'speech'.

Mayhew is the dumbest person in Twitter, according to Watson, but even she knows Watson is a terrible role model. So how dumb does Watson think her readers are?

Clearly Rebecca Watson did not think that Sarah Mayhew had done a sufficient job explaining how & why Rebecca Watson is such a shitty role model for young women, so she makes her best effort to illustrate her problem even further.

And PZ's fascination with Rebecca gets creepy and creepier every day.

http://i.imgur.com/PaOBOZl.png

Okay, I LOLed loudly at the "teddy bear" reputation part. "Let them eat cake" indeed.

[JackRayner]

An Addendum on the "Panty & Stocking" video I posted above. Panty & Stocking is a cartoon about two angels that got kicked out of heaven for bad behavior, and they're stuck on Earth until they can kill enough "ghosts" to buy their way back into heaven.

What I actually wanted to call attention to, in that short clip, was the fact that the two protagonists fight by removing their panties and stockings [respectively] and using them as weapons. However, I realized that the rest of the clip contains a lot of other stuff that your average moralizer would object to. There's a monster made out of shit, and enough cursing to get it banned from most television networks even if it was censored as it is in this clip.

Now, any control-freak, moralizing asshole can sit here and scream "WHY? WHAT'S THE LOGIC BEHIND MAKING CHARACTERS THAT USE UNDERGARMENTS TO FIGHT, AND GIANT MONSTERS MADE OUT OF SHIT, AND FOR ALL OF THIS PROFANITY?!", but in the end, "Just because" is an adequate answer. There's such a thing as freedom of expression, and if you or anyone else doesn't like this sort of shit, you can just fuck off and not patronize it. :P

Actually, it's because the whole thing is FUCKING HILARIOUS. The reason why the show exists is that it's a parody of Western animation (see the unique art style)...it's Powerpuff Girls meet Adult Swim. Turned up to...not 11...21. Both characters are designed to be stereotypical Americans ramped up.

The "transformation" scene is something you see in anime..again, they turned the subtext into text and ramped it up. This is something you'll see a lot.

The history of it (and that's important for context), is that this is by GAINAX, who's claim to fame is Neon Genesis Evangelion, one of the most influential and important anime series ever made. However their biggest hit recently is another mech series, Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann. Note: See my avatar/picture thingy? It's actually a screen-cap from the second TTGL movie. This is a series where they set the groundwork for a downbeat tragedy of a story, and somewhere along the way they said FUCK IT, turned everything up to 21 and let the series build and build and build to the point where it ended with mechs throwing galaxies with one another.

Things REALLY escalated.

Panty and Stocking with Garterbelt was the follow-up to TTGL, and following off of the success of that, like I said. It's a parody of western animation turned up to 21. And it's equal parts hilarious and AWESOME. (The fights between P and S and their demon counter-parts are insane).

Anyway, that's the story behind that.

I'm pretty familiar with Gainax and their stylistic choices, and with those made for PSG. MY comment about "logic" was more to point out that artists/creatives don't need to adhere to it in order to justify their creative choices. Trophy's [or anyone else's] "there is no logical reason to create a bikini combat outfit with stockings" could be extended to "there's no logical reason to create characters that use undergarments to do battle", or "there's no logical reason to create a series with magical machines powered by manliness and courage", or "there's no logical reason to create a character that can open dimensional portals inside of a kid's head by hitting him with a bass guitar" [FLCL, one of my favorites]. I used PSG in particular because it's a perfect example of a show whose "logic" moralizing assholes with control issues would attempt to question. It's got violence, innuendo, profanity, toilet humor, slut-shaming, sex [that's transformers episode was one of the craziest things I've ever seen], etc...

[Darren]

Anybody know what this is all about?

[Git]

*Enter Trolly-y Comment Except I mean it*

Who gives a fuck about Dragon's Age anyway. The only good games that Bioware ever did are the Mass Effect games. They have some very good writers, but trying to do real time games based upon tabletop rules NEVER work well.

How could you not mention Baldur's Gate?

http://www.smart-kit.com/wp-content/upl ... 50x150.jpg

[John Greg]

OK, so a few of you think that rather than complain about games, one should make one's own, and that to do so is easy, and sure to be successful ... because of some goofball cookie toy game. Right? Right.

OK, I am disappoint that Fallout 3 will not run properly on Win 7 -- it is not compatible. So, who's got the more than 20 million dollars, the 50+ coders, artists, etc., and the kajillion hours to help me rewrite it?

C'mon, folks, I am not talking about some pansy-assed cookie games that look like they were coded a decade ago, or some other closet-shop indie goofball game that through extraordinary luck and coincidence gets successful. I am talking about main stream and potentially globally successful games, which is primarily what AS and Rayner are talking about.

As far as I'm concerned, that one goofball example proves the rule.

[Dim]

BillHamp said:

If there is a problem with how private companies make games sold to private individuals, the answer is not a kickstarter campaign to complain about it. The answer is to produce your own video game that will be a marketing success and change the industry.

Wow. If you think the days still exist where even a unique and extremely talented and experienced individual could actually create and successfully produce a video game still exist, I want whatever drugs you're using; they must be fun.

Game production is a highly formulaic, extremely expensive corporate venture. The days of a handful of talented kids sitting in their basement producing qualty material are long, long gone.

In that sense, the video game industry is precisely like the music industry: individual skill and talent are meaningless, utterly meaningless. It is a corporate machine now.

That was sort of the case 5 years ago ... But now ... games like Minecraft, and most iOS and Android games, prove that has changed. Watch the film Indie Game, good film and shows what one or two people can do with less than 150k

[Tony Parsehole]

For a while I've been trying to think of who Rebecca Watson reminded me of, and now I've remembered.
When I was a kid in the 70s, I used to watch a programme called The Singing Ringing Tree. The central character was a spoiled and selfish princess who looked like this:

https://www.tynesidecinema.co.uk/_site_ ... 91.334.jpg

Remind you of anyone?

I remember that! Not on it's original run but My Dad had it taped and I used to watch it as a kid. There was a weird goldfish in it I remember and the obligitaory evil dwarf.
Seeing as how we're posting creepy kids shows....
[youtube]BgL8zZb22KM[/youtube]
Extra weird points are awarded for the mild racism throughout.

[free thoughtpolice]

Caine has gone completely power hungry an apparent case of Ceepolk syndrome. Pharynguland comment threads are beginning too more and more look like A+.
From Like Cattle;

SC (Salty Current), OM

16 September 2013 at 12:18 pm (UTC -5)

Society teaches men that women are objects to be owned.

And it teaches men and women that cows are objects to be owned. The connection between these systems of oppression-exploitation needs to be recognized.
75
Doug Hudson

16 September 2013 at 12:24 pm (UTC -5)

SC @74, say what? Are you trolling? Or have you joined PETA? Comparing women to cows is the sort of thing they love to do.

Either way, not cool.
76
Caine, Fleur du mal

16 September 2013 at 12:29 pm (UTC -5)

Doug @ 75, no, SC is not trolling, this is a subject dear to her, and one she is passionate about. That said, please take any subsequent discussion of this type to Thunderdome. Thank you.

One example of many, in that thread alone.

[Lsuoma]

For a while I've been trying to think of who Rebecca Watson reminded me of, and now I've remembered.
When I was a kid in the 70s, I used to watch a programme called The Singing Ringing Tree. The central character was a spoiled and selfish princess who looked like this:

https://www.tynesidecinema.co.uk/_site_ ... 91.334.jpg

Remind you of anyone?

I remember that! Not on it's original run but My Dad had it taped and I used to watch it as a kid. There was a weird goldfish in it I remember and the obligitaory evil dwarf.

It was made in East Germany. There is a DVD available.

[Git]

For a while I've been trying to think of who Rebecca Watson reminded me of, and now I've remembered.
When I was a kid in the 70s, I used to watch a programme called The Singing Ringing Tree. The central character was a spoiled and selfish princess who looked like this:

https://www.tynesidecinema.co.uk/_site_ ... 91.334.jpg

Remind you of anyone?

[youtube]7XqMF5ou7hE[/youtube]

[Tony Parsehole]

For a while I've been trying to think of who Rebecca Watson reminded me of, and now I've remembered.
When I was a kid in the 70s, I used to watch a programme called The Singing Ringing Tree. The central character was a spoiled and selfish princess who looked like this:

https://www.tynesidecinema.co.uk/_site_ ... 91.334.jpg

Remind you of anyone?

I remember that! Not on it's original run but My Dad had it taped and I used to watch it as a kid. There was a weird goldfish in it I remember and the obligitaory evil dwarf.

It was made in East Germany. There is a DVD available.

I remember it being dubbed in the shittest way possible. Every character was the same bloke not even bothering to change his voice. It just added to the weirdness.

[JackRayner]

Am I the only one who thinks Anita Sarkeesian makes some pretty convincing points? Her videos certainly aren't perfect, and I ultimately reserve judgment until I see statistics on what percentage of the most popular games actually do relegate female characters to mostly or entirely passive roles, but she provides an awful lot of examples—far too many for her to be *FLOOSH* dismissed for unevidenced opinions.

No, you're not. Even on this very thread, the sort of defensiveness you see from gamers is amazingly childish. Let me be clear: I think Sarkeesian's presentation sort of sucks, is too laundry-listy, and is overall annoying in tone. But despite all that, she's right. Games, generally, have a shitty presentation of women and it would be nice if publishers would learn to treat women in games as more than just eye candy. At its simplest level, if women in movies were used like women in games are, every single fucking movie would be a cinema version of a Frank Frazzetta painting. Anyone who seriously wants to argue against this observation just doesn't play many games. It sucks.

As for the "Sarkeesian == censorship" crowd, all I can say is, grow a fucking pair of balls and learn to take the criticism. If you want to make games that aren't criticized for being sexist, then don't make games that are sexist. You fucking pussy.

Just more *moralizing bullshit* [with statements that don't hold up to scrutiny]. If I was the fucking pussy you would claim I was, I'd be off crying about the depiction of men across all media, to include the smut women love to read ["romance novels", etc]. I'd be crying about being made to feel "excluded" from entertainment mediums and genres that I've never given two fuck about, but which I now pretend to care about because someone "raised my social consciousness" about it, and pointed out that the way men are presented is "shitty", and it does things like setup "unrealistic expectations" of men, and I've decided to start a moral crusade against it. Get the fuck out of here! :lol:

I might be done for good after this though. Seriously, there's no point wasting time with this. There are ages worth of examples of moralizing cunts pushing for censorship under the guise of concern for womyn and childrenz, and yet we've still got ignorant, gullible, emotionally susceptible fucks like you, that honestly believe that Sarkeesian isn't a pro-censorship cunt when she begins by making the same arguments? Maybe it really isn't that Sarkeesian picked a more gullible crowd of people, but that she's just better at peddling her bullshit than Becky is. It's certainly worked on you.

[dogen]

Watson has a post up on how she is not terrible to kids, as a counter-point to what Mayhew was saying on Twatter. Except that her story validates what Sara said, and then theres that tiny thing we all got to witness, which was Twatson being a massive bitch to some kids in front of all their friends during her student leadership conference 'speech'.

Mayhew is the dumbest person in Twitter, according to Watson, but even she knows Watson is a terrible role model. So how dumb does Watson think her readers are?

Linky dinky?

http://www.freezepage.com/1379365432AKGHPZIDMW

Thanks!

Interesting part in the linked post:

I was polite but abrupt with someone at a con recently even though he seemed nice, because I knew he produced a work online that I found very sexist and I didn’t want to talk to him.

From what was written about this DragonCon episode by bloke in question (posted here a couple of days ago), Becky was far from polite. Nor was she abrupt; she spent the better part of an hour ruining the poor sod's shrimp 'n' grits by bitching about the cunting DragonCon organizers.

[windy]

PZ has targeted SETI now. Of course rather than respectfully disagreeing he calls it a boondoggle.

While I suspect the probability of intelligent life on a nearby star system is quite low, I have no problem if people want to look for it.

What was more interesting to me was the PeeZus felt the need to opine on the practicality of radio transmission, insisting that:

they’re going to have to invest a significant fraction of the energy output of their star to get the signal to us

Although PeeZus is right about the inverse square law, he is completely wrong about his statement above. Take voyager 1 as an example. It sends a signal using a 20 watt transmitter approx 2x10^13 metres from earth, with a bandwidth of 1400 bits per second.

A star 20 light years away from us would be approx 2x10^17 metres away, or ten thousand times further than voyager is at the moment. So to provide a similar signal strength to voyager, it would need (10,000-squared) times the power - which comes out as (roughly) 2GW. Now that is around the output of a large power station - a lot of power, admittedly - but absolutely nowhere near the output of the star itself, PeeZus is orders of magnitude out.

But there is more. Sensitivity is related to bandwidth. If we seek signals with a bandwidth of 1 bit per second, which would allow detection of a carrier with typical stability, we get a reduction of the 1400 bps from the voyager comparison - we can detect signals 1/1400 of the size - around 1.4MW, not far from the outputs of the most powerful terrestrial TV transmission towers, and absolutely nothing like PeeZus' "significant fraction of the energy output of their star".

As for aiming a signal, that is just another gain factor which can be accommodated by either a larger dish on earth or going for a longer integration time or a combination of the two.

Thanks for the breakdown.
I listened to a panel on this topic at a sf con recently. The following suggestion was made to get affordable inter-stellar messaging, dunno if at all feasible in practice, but anyway: If in the future a lot of electricity is produced using parabolic solar panels, these could double as radio telescopes and some of the excess power in summer could be used to transmit messages.

[JackRayner]

I have heard that some men prefer playing female chars - especially in relation to the Tomb Raider series, because, and I paraphrase "I would rather look at a cute female ass all day long."

Certainly... and that STILL doesn't make them sexist.

Yep. It just means they appreciate a nice ass:)

Fran, one of Final Fantasy XII's bunny girls, was a mainstay in my main party. Certainly didn't mind watching her run. :lol:

[Pitchguest]

Re: boob plate and negative stereotypes

Even if it is true that "boob plate" armour wouldn't provide realistic protection against sharp weaponry, we need to reiterate once again -- it's fantasy. It's fiction. It's poetic license. Whatever you want to call it. For all the things usually depicted in games, particularly the ones featuring violence of some kind, "boob plate" is one of the least concerning points. If it should count as a concern at all. It's debatable.

Let's consider what usually happens in a game featuring violence. Main characters encounters baddies. Main characters dispatches baddies. How do they dispatch those baddies? Sometimes it's clean, sometimes it's bloody, and sometimes it's a goddamn gorefest. Limbs dismembered, heads decapitated, brain tissue splattered on the walls. Some people, like Jack Thompson, believes this desensitizes children (and young teens) and causes them to perpetuate violence outside of the game as well as inside. Most people, including some scientists, say this is bullshit and they have the science to prove it. The overall consensus is, it's fine.*

But show some boobs and everyone loses their fucking minds. I don't get it.

Some critics (probably a few of them self-proclaimed feminists) complained about the skimpy clothing in the newest Mortal Kombat installment.

Really? Mortal Kombat is one of the bloodiest franchise in gaming and that's remained constant for twenty years, where in each installment the developers put their heads together to think up what's the more creative way to kill the other opponent. It features both men and women who are both able to kick their opponent's arse, and at the end of the round their own seperate fatality to inflict. In the midst of all that, is the most important thing really to focus on their fucking costumes?

*And yes, let's not forget that overwhelmingly these faceless scrubs that you either kill or beat the shit out off are men. Or at the very least male representations. Not a peep about that. (Which, to be clear, I don't really care much about myself because, again, they're not real. It's fantasy. It's fiction. But it's interesting to note the different reaction to the two. Cut a man in two, that's fine and dandy; have a woman show some cleavage, woah, what the hell is wrong with you? Sometimes even in the same game to boot! Crazy.) That said, what do I think about Quiet in MGS5?

[youtube]k_IXzU-lnLU[/youtube]