Bleeding from the Bunghole

[Pitchguest]

This thing with PZ asking for advice on how to handle his own fucking blog is ridiculous.

In the past he's praised the rabid dogs he calls his "horde", that he wants them to bite back, that his blog is a rude blog and that his "gang" takes great pride in telling people to shove rotting porcupines up their "nether orifice." But now all of a sudden, when the golden calf departs, he's apologetic and wants a change? Don't get me wrong, I'm all about people changing their minds, but this is bullshit, bullshit, bullshit. Bullshit. You'd have to be a fucking idiot to believe that.

You're right, it's comedy fucking gold.

SCENE: FfTB boardroom (a dialup Skype connection between TwoCows Brayton and PZ Meyers)

Brayton: Listen, Paul, we're...
Meyers: PZ.
B: What?
M: It's PZ, not Paul. Sounds much more badass. Rebecca loves it, she says...
B: Now listen to me you dumpy little sack of shit, you need to ditch that bitch and concentrate on making us some money.
M: Well, Rebecca does that too. You remember TAM 2009, how we got fifteen bucks shoved down her titties during that party in her room? That was pure profit.
B: Pure profit? I had to drop a fifty on wine just to get her to agree to that. Never mind the two hundred I fed Shermer to leave her alone and go after that other chick.
M: So how else do we leverage Rebecca's tits?
B: Oh, for fu... Give up the whole Becky's tits idea, okay?
M: Sure, whatever you say, Ed.
[Meyers slides a fifteen page document from his bag into the trashcan]
M: Sigh.
B: No, Paul, what we need is to keep new visitors coming back. We get 100,000 hits per month, with 18% of those being first time visitors. We need to get them engaging in the comments sections, and thus returning multiple times. It's a winner for us!
M: I see. So you want me to ask Caine to accuse any newbie of being a rapist?
B: No, that's exactly what...
M: Hang on, hang on: anyone who upsets SallyStrange, I should slap them around the cheeks with the Penis Of Banning?
B: Slap them...what the fuck are you talking about?
M: If David Morales [Meta]'s a N00B's comment, you want me to suggest they die in prolonged agony through rectal perforation and the inevitable septicemia?
B: I can't believe you're saying these things, Paul. Seriously, are you taking too much on at the moment?
M: Well, I have been kind of thinking a lot about Rebecca's ti...
B: ENOUGH! No, I can't let this go on any more, Paul. It's time for you to hand over responsibility for your comments to someone who knows what they're doing.
[Presses button and speaks into microphone]
B: Okay, you can come in now, Mr Head.
[Door opens behind Brayton.]
*WHIRR! SPLUTTER! WHATTING! WHIRRRRRRR!*
B: Ah, Mr Head, so glad you are here. May I introduce PZ Meyers?
M: Dear God, Brayton, do you know what you're doing? What kind of monster are you, to allow this...this...beast loose upon the Horde. And with MODERATOR PRIVILEGES? Christ, in my opinion this is a very bad idea.
NoR: *FLOOSH* OPINION IS NOT EVIDENCE, PER THE HITCHENS QUOTE. YOU IDJIT FUCKWIT. YOU WILL PREOVIDE EVIDENCE FROM PEER REVIEWED SOURCES OR FADE INTO THE BANDWIDTH.
M: Evidence? For my own opinion? How do I...
NoR: *FLOOSH* DO NOT ASK ANY QUESTIONS UNTIL YOU HAVE READ THE PRECEEDING 419 PAGES OF MEANINGLESS TITTLE TATTLE AND DEFAMATORY LIES.
[NoR uses admin privileges to disconnect Meyers from FfTB network]
B: Good. Goooood. I believe you will be very successful on this site, NerdofRedhead.
NoR: *FLOOSH* THAT IS NOT PEER REVIEWED EVIDENCE. YOU ARE AN MRA SOCKPUPPET FUCKWIT. PROCEEDING TO *FLOOSH* STATION NUMBER 18.
[NoR uses robotic arms to grab Brayton and squash him into a toilet in the adjoining bathroom. His macerators crush and grind Brayton into a flushable pink puree.]
NoR: NOW THINGS WILL BE BETTER ON FfTB.
NoR: *FLOOSH* THAT IS OPINION WITHOUT EVIDENCE AND CAN BE DISMISSED PER THE HITCHENS QUOTE
NoR: *FLOOSH* THAT IS OPINION WITHOUT EVIDENCE AND CAN BE DISMISSED PER THE HITCHENS QUOTE
NoR: *FLOOSH* THAT IS OPINION WITHOUT EVIDENCE AND CAN BE DISMISSED PER THE HITCHENS QUOTE
NoR: *FLOOSH* THAT IS OPINION WITHOUT EVIDENCE AND CAN BE DISMISSED PER THE HITCHENS QUOTE
NoR: *FLOOSH* THAT IS OPINION WITHOUT EVIDENCE AND CAN BE DISMISSED PER THE HITCHENS QUOTE
NoR: *FLOOSH* THAT IS OPINION WITHOUT EVIDENCE AND CAN BE DISMISSED PER THE HITCHENS QUOTE
NoR: *FLOOSH* THAT IS OPINION WITHOUT EVIDENCE AND CAN BE DISMISSED PER THE HITCHENS QUOTE
NoR: *FLOOSH* THAT IS OPINION WITHOUT EVIDENCE AND CAN BE DISMISSED PER THE HITCHENS QUOTE
NoR: *FLOOSH* THAT IS OPINION WITHOUT EVIDENCE AND CAN BE DISMISSED PER THE HITCHENS QUOTE
NoR: *FLOOSH* THAT IS OPINION WITHOUT EVIDENCE AND CAN BE DISMISSED PER THE HITCHENS QUOTE
NoR: *FLOOSH* THAT IS OPINION WITHOUT EVIDENCE AND CAN BE DISMISSED PER THE HITCHENS QUOTE
NoR: *FLOOSH* THAT IS OPINION WITHOUT EVIDENCE AND CAN BE DISMISSED PER THE HITCHENS QUOTE

http://parterre.com/wp-content/uploads/ ... plause.gif

[bovarchist]

A good solution would be to stop being an asshole. Then he would attract less fans who are assholes. Has anyone suggested that?

Don't tone troll me, bro! Even though this entire topic came up due to the toxic atmosphere in the comments, the problem is clearly not the tone! And the problem will go away with more rules, you'll see! Some kind of complex multi-tiered interaction policy that details how to interact with other human beings should work.. we could call it "the Pharyngula anti-harassment policy".

I suspect that if PZ simply banned everyone who used the term 'tone troll' against another, the problem would simply evaporate.

[goddamn 'nym]

The FAQ as I read it basically says yes, it's probably illegal, but the employer likely can keep the passport and many/most do and good luck getting it back.

As I said there are consulates that should issue new passports.

Re: the debt situation, yes it is a very big deal. These folks are already in the hole for 2 - 3 years of salary since they became indebted to that amount when they agreed to go to Dubai to work with the promise of much higher wages than is being offered once they get in country.

In those cases it is usually the family that has paid cash to send their son there. These are deals made in their home countries. They are no impediments that I know of for the person to walk up to an airline counter and purchase a return ticket. The deals may be unethical or simply a bad deal for the money but the party that need to address such practices is the country of origin where these recruiters operate.

Re: Dubai deporting people causing problems, it's not what I heard, it's the reverse, Dubai imprisons people causing problems unless their is sufficient world outrage focused on them.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/eamonnfingl ... in-prison/

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/featur ... 51541.html
Its not clear cut. In any case I don't think this justifies the term slavery even though it is pretty fucked up.

I found this article a few weeks ago, and it had me surfing Dubai stuff for a few hours. That's the limit of my knowledge, I could easily be wrong:

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/com ... 64368.html

I remember when the article came out (2009) the comment section had lots of critical comments, but its probably a bit much to read through 4 years of comments now. Generally speaking Hari helicoptered in for a few days to collect a bunch of anecdotes to present his pre-determined narrative.

Dubai has many human rights issues, but throwing black and white terms around like "slavery" is not a way to engage them in a dialogue. Especially not when we are so obviously hypocritical (the West has outsourced most of its cheap labor exploitation to China; in addition to that the US exploits some 11m "illegal" immigrants for cheap labor with limited access to legal protections; and no dictator has ever been too corrupt or too brutal for the West to make business with as long as it allowed us to get cheap access to natural resources)

[Pitchguest]

Watson's supporters are articulate

She repeats it three more times. What in the hell?

[Dick Strawkins]

I just noticed that Avicenna has a new post, this time whining about his inclusion on that awful AVFM article about Lousy Canuck being a rapist.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/amilliongod ... #more-2811

In the comment section he mentions the Sanderson/oolon situation, but in a ridiculous goalpost shifting way:

Remember, the specific reason he gave previously for his fury was that Sanderson had failed to mentioned Avicenna's alibi when he made the initial tweet.
It was pointed out by numerous people that Sanderson had simply repeated oolons comment, which also failed to mention Avicenna's alibi, and so if there was anyone to blame it was oolon.

So logically Avicenna apologizes to Sanderson and chastises oolon?

9
Avicenna

September 1, 2013 at 8:59 AM (UTC 5.5)

There is a post talking about how easy a fake rape allegation is to make, but how hard it is for real rape allegations to come forward. I spoke about what a forensic rape investigation is like from the Medical officer standpoint and gave a reason as to why so few rapes are prosecuted (If the rapist leaves no sperm, there is little evidence to link him to the crime and the case becomes weaker). Our system works on reasonable doubt, not the whims of the Judge, Jury and Executioner.

Then a few weeks after that, I was accused of rape via email at TAM 2013. I responded publically denying ever even being at any TAM let alone 2013. I also pointed out I was in a different nation and that I hadn’t been to the USA in nearly a decade.

And at this point, I realised that multiple other accusations were made. And if it became a major accusation in public I would be investigated a lot more harshly. So I told work. I knew I was innocent and that I had an alibi that is as solid as it gets but I still had to go through the stressful procedures that resulted in lower work rates and not being allowed to work on certain aspects of my job. That is without the personal stress it caused.

I actually kept quiet until the #FTBullies thread broke out in a fit of naming the accused. I pointed out the effect it had and I pointed out that I had defended myself and to keep making the accusation is slanderous. Then pointed out the cost paid for it.

Oolon reads the damn blog, and he used the term falsely correctly. The people who were tweeting used “inverted comas” and everyone knows when you use the air quotes you are being sarcastic about it. It’s not confusion, it’s a malicious rumour. At best it will silence someone critical of MRAs and at worst it was to make it harder for women to actually come forward.

:doh:

I checked his initial assertions - they are very mixed up with the actual order of events on his site.
He mixes up a post criticizing a stupid Paul Elam post about rape, with his post from almost two weeks later on the 8th of August (the one in which he hypothesizes about false allegations, including those against himself at TAM and Convergence)

In his later posts he seemed to have completely forgotten about the August 8th post. I can't understand how he doesn't see the relevance of it - it directly provides the motivation for any false allegations and also makes them far easier to dismiss.

His action in suddenly shifting his reasons for being angry at the false allegations appears to be a blatant attempt to get oolon off the hook - and get Sanderson back on it.

Putting the word false in inverted commas could mean it was being used in a purely sarcastic manner.
Or it could mean that it was being used as a direct quote (oolon called the allegations false, as have Lousy Canuck and Peezus about their own cases.) I didn't read Sandersons tweet to imply that any of these allegations were true. I think he was simply pointing out the fact that false accusations against even some FTB bloggers exist, therefore implying that we cannot (or they should not) assume that all anonymous accusations are true.

When someone changes his story to try to defend oolon you know truth and sincerity have long since left the building.

[Ä uest]

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/featur ... 51541.html
Its not clear cut. In any case I don't think this justifies the term slavery even though it is pretty fucked up.

Thanks, that's an interesting article.

I found this article a few weeks ago, and it had me surfing Dubai stuff for a few hours. That's the limit of my knowledge, I could easily be wrong:

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/com ... 64368.html

I remember when the article came out (2009) the comment section had lots of critical comments, but its probably a bit much to read through 4 years of comments now. Generally speaking Hari helicoptered in for a few days to collect a bunch of anecdotes to present his pre-determined narrative.

Dubai has many human rights issues, but throwing black and white terms around like "slavery" is not a way to engage them in a dialogue. Especially not when we are so obviously hypocritical (the West has outsourced most of its cheap labor exploitation to China; in addition to that the US exploits some 11m "illegal" immigrants for cheap labor with limited access to legal protections; and no dictator has ever been too corrupt or too brutal for the West to make business with as long as it allowed us to get cheap access to natural resources)[/quote]

Yeah, I didn't bother reading the comments. I did google other videos and did my due diligence by reading the wiki :shock: and there seemed to be plenty of sources backing it up, but as I said, it was an hour or so of reading, online, so I would be the last person to claim I was informed. Oh! I also participated in a FARK discussion, so I will claim to be vastly more informed than the FTBers.

[Dan]

Watson's supporters are articulate

She repeats it three more times. What in the hell?

I wander if she sent the same message to Dragoncon

She does claim to be drunk

[Pitchguest]

I just noticed that Avicenna has a new post, this time whining about his inclusion on that awful AVFM article about Lousy Canuck being a rapist.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/amilliongod ... #more-2811

In the comment section he mentions the Sanderson/oolon situation, but in a ridiculous goalpost shifting way:

Remember, the specific reason he gave previously for his fury was that Sanderson had failed to mentioned Avicenna's alibi when he made the initial tweet.
It was pointed out by numerous people that Sanderson had simply repeated oolons comment, which also failed to mention Avicenna's alibi, and so if there was anyone to blame it was oolon.

I noticed the same thing, but I seriously couldn't be arsed. It's pointless with these people. They just keep shifting the goalposts when they're put on the spot. If Avi's going to such heights to protect the turd, even though he clearly was the one who stirred the pot first, is proof of how fargone their patheticism has progressed. Fuck 'em.

[Darren]

Delicious! David Heddle had PZ's number eight freaking years ago. What a relief to see this (yes I might be falling prey to confirmation bias), since so far, most here have said they enjoyed PZ's posts at one time, and (based on what I've read in the past few months) I haven't been able to fathom why he was ever popular.

I hated PZ before it was cool.

[Guest]

Advice to PZ: ban 99% of your regulars then stop acting like an asshole yourself and you won't attract people like them again.

[Brive1987]

Yea, it looks like PZ did the same to this comment by Flewellyn. Rather interesting though is PZ’s editorial comment at the end of it:


Haven’t read it yet, but I sort of think that the SGU interview that Brive1987 referenced above provides somewhat of an answer (linky?). I think this place kind provides the contrast with Pharyngula that emphasizes the point that, once a forum starts down the path of heavy moderation and arbitrary banning the more or less inevitable result is places like Pharyngula and AtheismPlus. Someone provided this link to an article on Internet Silos which provides further justification.

The problem seems to be that the definition of "troll" tends to be rather flexible, and can easily turn into "anyone who disagrees with conventional wisdom", with current dogma espoused by the commentariat or the blog owners or moderators. This place, while hardly perfect even if I might be hard pressed to find the flaws, is, I think, a rather commendable alternative if not an oasis of rationality and skepticism in comparison to the consequences of those types of restrictive and draconian policies.

SGU interview = http://www.theskepticsguide.org/podcast/sgu/424 @ 58:58

Context is new media and its capacity to create non intellectual "safe zones". The example used is anti-vax - but the terms used by Steve (trolls etc) make me think his point was made with a broader point in mind.

Its funny - I used the link to the article on silos at the bottom of the post that got me shot on pharyngula.

......................

PZ is the clichéd "only soldier in a group that's marching in time". I wonder if it even registers that:

Sam Harris thinks he is the Shepherd of Trolls - http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/wrestling-the-troll

Steve Novella finds him unhelpful - http://theness.com/neurologicablog/inde ... -religion/

Massimo Pigliucci is unimpressed - http://rationallyspeaking.blogspot.com. ... ddles.html


I can't think of three more different or better qualified Skeptics to be benchmarked by. I shudder to think of what Sagan would say.

[heddle]

Then in 4/2005 Myers threatens to disemvowel someone at Panda's Thumb & got a bit of a smackdown for it, starting here: http://crookedtimber.org/2004/11/17/req ... ment-51233

Posted by David Heddle on April 16, 2005 11:01 AM (e)

PZ,

Why don’t you move comments you don’t like to the bathroom wall? The disemvoweling is childish. I would say it is beneath you, but I don’t think anything is beneath you. You play at science, at best a science reporter, and call people stupid, idiot, moron, etc. That is the extent of your contribution.

As much as I have argued with Gary Hurd, and even received nasty email from him, he at least has some damn good original papers (e.g., on dino blood) that I have used in arguments against YEC. You seem to have nothing original to offer. You are like GWW (though not as clever), but with a larger pulpit.

Delicious! David Heddle had PZ's number eight freaking years ago. What a relief to see this (yes I might be falling prey to confirmation bias), since so far, most here have said they enjoyed PZ's posts at one time, and (based on what I've read in the past few months) I haven't been able to fathom why he was ever popular.

*Cheers* Heddle, whoever you are.

Great find Skeptickle :)

Why thank you.

[Dick Strawkins]

*Cheers* Heddle, whoever you are.

Great find Skeptickle :)

Why thank you.

Who was GWW?

[Cunt of Personality]

Poor Peezus. Oh woe, what hath he wrought in his own image?

He's attracted a crowd of socially inept pseudo-intellectual malcontents who thrive on vicious attacks based on his own reputation for vicious attacks.

I'll wager a barrel of baboons that the real reason he wants comment reform is that on "advice of counsel" he's finally come to the realisation that his active moderation, editing and censorship leaves him potentially liable with respect to publishing any libel or defamation contained in what remains.

[Darren]

Haven't seen this posted yet... a comment from the surly one on the Skepchick DragonCon whineapalooza thread (sorry for the salmon background - screenshot playing up and too lazy to correct).

surly canary wtf.png

(13.1 KiB) Downloaded 166 times

WTF? Canaries in a coal mine?

Do these canaries have Avian Tuberculosis, perchance?

[James Caruthers]

I thought these women were social media experts and shit.

They are social media experts. They've taken a clear case of getting caught with their hands in the jewelery jar and used social media to con hundreds of useful idiots into giving them free publicity while sliming DragonCon for enforcing its own rules.

They're going to come out of this looking better than they did when they went in.

I suppose. But they lost an assload of cash because they're too goddamn dumb to sell their merch right outside the Con or from their hotel rooms, using social media to promote it.

And they've probably dicked themselves out of any future tables at DragonCon. Each SJW fan they have can only buy so much shitty clay jewelry before they hit a maximum limit and their loft apartments can't hold anymore.

[Darren]

Re: GWW

From some preliminary google searches, it seems the "GWW" referred to in the Heddle quote is a poster from The Panda's Thumb using the 'nym "Great White Wonder". Haven't read any of their stuff. I'm off to bed.

[heddle]

*Cheers* Heddle, whoever you are.

Great find Skeptickle :)

Why thank you.

Who was GWW?

I think it was "Great White ... something. He(she?) was eventually banned from PT for rampant insulting. As a newbie I despised GWW but eventually came to enjoy his insults (which were often directed at me) because they were so clever. GWW would have fit in here, I suspect. He was not of the "If you disagree with me STFU and listen" school of rhetoric.

[Dick Strawkins]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

http://i.imgur.com/6iZ13pQ.jpg


Yes Greg, that will help.
A lot.

[Plonk]

Someone gave an anonymous $1000 donation for Shermer's legal fund, so the $5000 target has been reached :clap:

http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/micha ... legal-fund

[Dick Strawkins]

http://i.imgur.com/zQRtH56.jpg

I tend to see it as canaries finally made to fend in the wild.

http://i.imgur.com/hpGzQA9.jpg


Where's BarnOwl? :D

[Brive1987]

Someone gave an anonymous $1000 donation for Shermer's legal fund, so the $5000 target has been reached :clap:

http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/micha ... legal-fund

:dance: :text-thankyouyellow:

[Cunt of Personality]

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE:

Dragon Con 2014 cancelled.

Organisers suspect that the fear of being looked at sternly by Greg Laden could result in financially non-viable levels of ticket sales and sponsorship.

A representative of Dragon Con said "Meanwhile, we will make ever effort to find out who Greg Laden is and why the fuck we should care.", adding that "Hopefully we will be able to get back on track for 2015".

[Richard Dworkins]

Lolys would have loved it to get an invitation to coffee instead of what happened ... and even Lysa may pass as a real victim knowing the context.

But I give RW a ticket for Cercei in a Feast of Crows...mixed with a little bit of Daenearys ( She likes blue hair ;))
"It's all about meeeee!"
"I couldn't make any dragons and Dragon Con. Where are my Dragons!!!"

Well I meant she thought herself calculating and tough, but was a lackwit neurotic. You make a compelling point though, but she's not burned all her bridges quite yet. I guess though this would make PZ Myres either Lancel or Jorah Mormont, but I still think he's more like Patchface.

[16bitheretic]

Can't help but laugh. From the "New commenting rules [please help me come up with some]" thread:

http://i.imgur.com/vG8XkwM.png?1

Dude. The regulars aren't just "jaded". Fresh eyes are gouged out.

(*some relatively high percentage of fresh eyes are, anyway)

Wow, that cognitive dissonance...

Perhaps PZ would not find himself so distressed over the posting style of his commentariat if he had not aided in fostering an environment where even civil disagreement gets one either the banhammer or publicly mocked by PZ himself, thus feeding the "go get 'em!" tendency of the horde which drove many calming and rational voices away by choice. One case that came to my mind was when YouTuber c0nc0rdance made a vid asking PZ to allow comments on his video channel. c0cnc0rdance is one of the most soft-spoken and rational voices in YT atheism/skepticism, and yet he got nothing but dismissive mockery and vitriol aimed his way when PZ posted a blog response and c0cnc0rdnace appeared in the comments to try and engage, only to leave when PZ and the hoard regulars behaved like angry little children.

He created and nurtured an environment that allowed only the most reactionary and unreasonable to exist, and they in turn drove out anyone that didn't fit into a specific ideological range. I think Noelplum, also from YouTube, hit the nail on the head when he made a video challenging PZ's blog commenting policies after he got permabanned from Pharyngula

Part1, Noelplum first raises the question:
[youtube]goA5KKyHHlI[/youtube]

Part 2, PZ responds on Pharyngula: http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... ommenting/

And this particular section in PZ's post is good for LOLs, as well as exposing the root of the problem on display the last couple days:

Why aren’t 50% of my commenters creationists, just like the American population? Why aren’t 90% of them Christians? Why aren’t a third of them Republicans? We can apply this to every site on the internet: why aren’t the comment threads at AVoiceForMen full of people aghast at the misogyny on display? Why aren’t 10% of the comments at RaptureReady people belittling the inanity of Bible prophecy? Perhaps NoelPlum99 ought to think it through a little bit, and wonder why he assumes that the internet ought to be a great gray panmictic uniformity.

But all right, I’ll just assume that he’s not very bright and explain the obvious. There are a number of reasons why you aren’t ever going to see mobs of angry dissenters here.

This is a self-selected community.

Now I don't read the comments at AVfM much as I'm getting bored lately with feminism and men's rights sites, I do know they banned Metaphoenix and I believe they banned Mykeru (I could be wrong, apologies if I am), but I do read Rapture Ready for laughs sometimes. For PZ to justify the singular ideological bent of his readership by a comparison to that site's policies is such an amazingly accurate bit of clarity and truthfulness that I wonder why he now seems shocked that his site has become as unreasonable as RR. If he can admit that his site is as exclusive and operates just like RR, what is he not grasping in regards to how it ends up that his community becomes a hostile place to any disagreement from the accepted range of thought, just like RR?

Anyways...

Part 3, Noelplum responds on his own blog and calls out all the bullshit PZ spewed: http://noelplum99.blogspot.co.uk/2013/0 ... myers.html

[bovarchist]

The soundtrack to Rebecca's brain....

[youtube]YRg6CgxM0T8[/youtube]

[Dick Strawkins]

As I've been slumming it recently on Avicenna's blog, I noticed a post that attracted my attention for good rather than bad reasons.
Well mostly good reasons.

He talks about his liking of metal music and of some experiences he's had going into metal clubs and finding himself as the only asian guy there.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/amilliongod ... /#comments

He does try to inject a little of a SJW flavor by mentioning racist elements in the metal music scene - although having been involved in the scene when I was younger I couldn't figure out what he meant.
I've heard of racist elements in the skinhead/punk scene but don't really know of any in metal.
Perhaps Phil, our resident metalhead, can enlighten us.
Is there some obscure branch of Scandinavian death metal that is pro-nazi?

[James Caruthers]

I find it hilarious PZ is asking for newbies to give suggestions on how to change Pharyngula. Can't he see it? The FTB cult process is happening in the comments to this very blog post!

-Newbie posts suggestion
-Regulars gangrape him with insults, claims of "check your privilege" or "LURK MOAR" (they love that last one)
-Newbie is called a rape apologist, slymepitter, MRA and misogynist
-Newbie gets pissed off and either argues (in which case, huge shitstorm erupts) or runs away
-Community becomes even more insular, asshole factor increases

Go through the comments, the pattern just keeps repeating itself.
http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... ent-682607

[16bitheretic]

Is there some obscure branch of Scandinavian death metal that is pro-nazi?

Look up Varg Vikernes and the NSBM scene (National Socialist Black Metal)

[rpguest]

screw YOU gumby i DARE you to forcibly change my avatar the way you have avatar-raped so many people in the past!

FIGHT THE POWER FIGHT THE POWER

ATTICA

[Tony Parsehole]

http://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/5995419392/h7382E4B0/

http://weknowmemes.com/generator/upload ... 767885.jpg

[Tony Parsehole]

Have you guys seen this one?

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x17/ ... 48035f.png

*sprinkles broken glass, nettles and dog shit on a mattress.*

"Well, that's my bed made. Now to lie in it."

[Guest]

Is there some obscure branch of Scandinavian death metal that is pro-nazi?

Look up Varg Vikernes and the NSBM scene (National Socialist Black Metal)

Graveland is a particular favorite in terms of sheer stupidity.

[KenD]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/ ... 9016_n.jpg

And just how gullible, ignorant, and downright stupid do you have to be to buy into the absurd feminist "sex trafficking" bullshit quoted in that last one?

It's embarrassing to think that he's a student at one of my country's top universities...

Not quite sure how he manages to qualify it as “the second biggest industry in the world”, but it seems anything but a minor one:

There are many different estimates of how large the human trafficking and sex trafficking industries are. According to scholar Kevin Bales, author of Disposable People (2004), estimates that as many as 27 million people are in "modern-day slavery" across the globe. In 2008, the U.S. Department of State estimates that 2 million children are exploited by the global commercial sex trade. In the same year, a study classified 12.3 million individuals worldwide as “forced laborers, bonded laborers or sex-trafficking victims.” Approximately 1.39 million of these individuals worked as commercial sex slaves, with women and girls comprising 98%, or 1.36 million, of this population.

I'm highly skeptical of the sex trafficking estimates put out by government departments and NGOs. Surely if trafficking exists on anything like the massive scale they claim there'd be hard evidence of it?

British NGOs estimated that there were 18,000-25,000 sex trafficking victims in the UK, but after years of major police operations carried out by every force in the country, they've have only found a handful of cases. You'll find similar results from investigations in the rest of European and America; the wild estimates about millions of trafficking victims just don't hold up to reality.

Those same anti-trafficking NGOs were predicting that thousands of women would be trafficked into London just for the Olympics. The police trafficking unit was given £500,000 extra funding to find them, but in the end a total of 4 trafficked women were found during the Olympic year, the exact same number found the previous year.

You'll find similar scare statistics about massive increases in sex trafficking and prostitution at the World Cup and other major sporting events, but no evidence for the movement of these thousands of people is ever presented. These claims are made about trafficking before every Super Bowl too, even though the claimed increase in prostitution/trafficking has been listed as a myth on Snopes for quite a while.

So many of the claims made about trafficking simply turn out to be bullshit that it looks a lot like a moral panic to me. More about using a relatively small number of genuine cases to justify cracking down on prostitution and immigration than anything else.

[Tony Parsehole]

Isn't asking your blog regulars to chill out on the invective "Tone Trolling"?
And who invented the term "Tone Trolling"?
Was it PZ Myers by any chance?

Oh, irony.

[Tony Parsehole]

I think I have some genuinely good advice on how PZ Myers could fix his comments sections and boost his reputation but given that I wouldn't piss in his mouth if he was dying of thirst he can fuck off.

[Dick Strawkins]

Graveland is a particular favorite in terms of sheer stupidity.

Hey!
I like Gravelands!
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51MY9GGA41L.jpg

[youtube]F8yvJXltg3c[/youtube]

[Dick Strawkins]

Is there some obscure branch of Scandinavian death metal that is pro-nazi?

Look up Varg Vikernes and the NSBM scene (National Socialist Black Metal)

Cheers for those.
I'd heard of Vikernes before. I would probably regard those groups as far too obscure to be part of any kind of metal scene that Avicenna would have experienced - unless his experience consisted mainly of black metal clubs in rural Norway.
I've never met a pro-nazi metal fan. When I was going to metal gigs in my teens we used to associate racist views almost entirely with the skinhead scene - and they in turn used to target metal fans (pretty sure it was mainly jealousy over our gorgeous long hair!)

[TheMan]

I think I have some genuinely good advice on how PZ Myers could fix his comments sections and boost his reputation but given that I wouldn't piss in his mouth if he was dying of thirst he can fuck off.

Sounds like you need a 'hole lotta Rosie"; or PZ does. My only advice to PZ is to post a blog entry and don't bother reading or monitoring the comments. Come what may and let God sort them out.

[Hunt]

Holy crap, the Shermer fund is almost 500 bucks over the goal. I think we have a gusher!

Hey, would someone pop a wine bottle or something?!

...what?

[Gefan]

An unfortunate mishap in Herr Myers' laboratory causes more tension in the bunker.

[youtube]itzLjv0rYcQ[/youtube]

I eagerly anticipate my first DMCA complaint.

[Tulip Eater]

Quoth PZ:

For the record, I do think the comments section here is a great success. My goal was to have a community of ferocious furious defenders of reason, and here you are. We’re just in the process of tweaking the guidelines to make it an even greater success.

The suggestion about an affiliated forum: don’t like ‘em. Every forum I’ve invested time in has eventually melted down as the distributed leadership changes and has its own internal conflict, and as trolls move in and claim ownership

So even though his co-blogger leaves due to the toxic comments, and he has a momentary epiphany where he solicits comments to help them get back on track, the entrenched ideology beckons and he insists all he's looking for are "tweaks". Anything more would be to admit the premise of creating an angry purity contest isn't a good way to build a community.

And even more stunningly he talks about "distributed leadership changes" leading to internal conflict and meltdown and then posts just after that:

By the way, let’s also have a reappraisal of the existing mods.

Okay?

How far off the deep end are you, PZ? Can you even see the light from the surface anymore?

[acathode]

I think I have some genuinely good advice on how PZ Myers could fix his comments sections and boost his reputation but given that I wouldn't piss in his mouth if he was dying of thirst he can fuck off.

Nah, at this point I doubt very much that anything will be able to salvage Myers blog. What can he do? Ban the few people that still comment? No way in hell he's trying that. Try to get them to play nice? Good luck with that...

He's driven off all the decent people who makes for interesting commentators, and most of them aren't going to come back no matter what he does. He's fucked, he gleefully cultivated a hateful and vile commentariat that would shiv any newbie that showed up, and now he'll just going to have to live with the snarling black blob of putrefying porcupines he created, as they slowly cannibalize each other and slowly dwindle away to nothingness.

[Gumby]

Pharyngula has become the equivalent of past-life regression.

Unsuspecting visitors arrive bright-eyed and bushy-tailed only to discover they were raped twenty years ago.

Yeah. In that "stunned silence" thread someone was wailing about how 20 years ago she used to have regular drunken sex with some guy who she wouldn't have slept with when she was sober. After reading Pharyngula she realized that she had been "raped". Never mind that she got drunk voluntarily and had sex voluntarily. Now she doesn't have to be ashamed of herself for willingly sleeping with some guy who she was repulsed by when sober because of some self-loathing or whatever. Just call it rape and you can transfer all the shame and all the blame away from yourself and onto the man!

Back in my college frat party days, I've woken up next to a few women I never, ever would have slept with when sober. Does that mean I was raped? Of course not. It simply means I was under the influence of inhibition-lowering beer goggles. I did an abashed facefalm, and moved on.

These third-wave feminist idiots who encourage this mentality are doing a lot of damage to women who may have deep-seated psychological issues. When you'd rather pretend you're the victim of a traumatic rape rather than just deal with the slight shame of admitting to yourself that you slept with some guy who repulses you, there's a problem. Because you're taking the easy way out, and not examining the underlying issues that may exist that compel you to sleep with guys you normally wouldn't. (I'm talking about women like the one I referred to in the Pharyngula comments who did/do this kind of thing regularly, not otherwise mentally healthy women who made a bad judgment call once or twice in their lives).

Transferring the shame and blame away from yourself by saying "I was raped" is a way of avoiding whatever psychological issues you may have that cause you to compulsively behave that way in the first place. Women who might benefit from counseling are instead being told "it's not your fault, you had no responsibility because evil man drunk rape". Of course, I am not a mental health professional, so everything I'm opining here should be taken with a huge grain of salt.

It all reminds me of some fundamentalist Christians I have encountered online. Some of them were way messed up people who you wouldn't want living within fifty miles of you. They had more issues than TV Guide, but they are convinced they are perfectly well now, because they have been "saved". Their problems were Satan's doing, not theirs. Of course, the issues they had before their "conversion" are still there in full force. They have to work very hard to pretend to themselves that it was all Satan's fault and Jesus made it all better. Meanwhile, I'm imagining them at their keyboard, trying to type while fighting uncontrollable tics. Religion, like this faultless victim mentality perpetuated by third-wave feminism, keeps people who would benefit from therapy and counseling from seeking it out.

[Aneris]

From End of March

[...]

Meanwhile, I’m hesitant to encourage friends to comment on what is arguably my own goddamn blog, because no matter how thick their skin is they’ve got to get past this kind of mistrustful hazing — which is, incidentally, something PZ has expressly forbidden. It sucks, and it makes me feel embarrassed to be part of the dynamic here. You owe a number of apologies. Starting with Susan, should she come back.

Well, when you pour liters of poison into the well it will eventually seep into the ground water and end up in your own drink. It is now interesting how they deal with the realization that the Demonic Others have been right all along. I'm curious how this plays out. Didn't Matt Dillahunty point this out regarding A+Theism? Perhaps, when PZ Myers' supply of Yellow Paper and his Ad money runs dry he might hazard to speak out against it. It would probably be a 1000+ comment thread.

The Great Disappointment is viewed by some scholars as an example of the psychological phenomenon of cognitive dissonance.[14] The theory was proposed by Leon Festinger to describe the formation of new beliefs and increased proselytizing in order to reduce the tension, or dissonance, that results from failed prophecies.[15] According to the theory, believers experienced tension following the failure of Jesus' reappearance in 1844, which led to a variety of new explanations. The various solutions form a part of the teachings of the different groups that outlived the disappointment.

I look forward to this Epic Moment of Told You So :popcorn:

It finally arrived. And in my opinion it is and was bloody obvious to anyone not emotionally challenged. Well, there might be the problem.

[Hunt]

Oh for the love of fuck:

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... le-female/

Right, in no way is it possible that silly teenage girls could write "teach naked" to a handsome young male teacher. Evidently Myers has forgotten what teens routinely do. Just fucking chill. Why does everything need to be pathologized?

[Gumby]

I enjoy the demands people read the entire thread prior to commenting.

Yeah, that will happen. It's not just unrealistic to demand that it is another way to keep out the employed and people with a life apart from the comments.

Both the 101 threads and the read the entire thread will really just turn into more excuses to flame people for not reading the thread, or posting to the wrong thread.

But I truly don't care. I would like to give PZ and the FTBullies more rope.

"Read the whole thread" is just code for "Why haven't you acquiesced to our opinions yet?" It's a shameful way of stifling dissent. The "grenade" post is a textbook example of it.

[windy]

British NGOs estimated that there were 18,000-25,000 sex trafficking victims in the UK, but after years of major police operations carried out by every force in the country, they've have only found a handful of cases. You'll find similar results from investigations in the rest of European and America; the wild estimates about millions of trafficking victims just don't hold up to reality.

And don't forget the alleged 100,000 trafficked Vietnamese nail salon workers in the UK, doubling as prostitutes by night.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens ... ation.html

[Zenspace]

http://i.imgur.com/zQRtH56.jpg

I tend to see it as canaries finally made to fend in the wild.

http://i.imgur.com/hpGzQA9.jpg


Where's BarnOwl? :D

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Indeed! Perfect pic, too!

Unfortunate that the process is so painfully slow, but it is fascinating to watch the natural processes of the real world close in on them as their popularity and, dare I say it, privilege fades.

Just checking in after a couple of days out in said real world and heading out again in a bit to finalize the details for an upcoming gallery show. Thank goodness for the Pyt or there is no way I could keep up with this stuff.

[Gumby]

why do we have mods?

I haven't any problem with those chosen, I just do not understand why we would have moderators, as we were always proud of not having any

Cause the sun never sets on the Pit and Lsuoma needs a nap

Precisely.

[James Caruthers]

@284 roxie

Are there any people though who view the comments section of Pharyngula as their “only source of comfort and support”? Surely there are safe space rape survivor forums for people who are in that situation. I thought this was an atheist blog, not a rape survivor blog.

This blog is whatever PZ (and the commentariat, to an extent) decide it to be. It’s an atheist blog, but that’s not all it is. It’s also a blog which in the last couple of years broadened its focus to social justice and feminism. Partly as a result of that, some of the regulars have formed a community wherein they feel safe talking about their experiences.

If you object to this place being a safe space for rape survivors, feel free to not visit – or to restrict yourself to threads where rape is not discussed. Or to start your own blog.

Was that fucking civil enough for you?

myeck waters

2 September 2013 at 6:14 am (UTC -5)

I often wish forum software had a way to flag the accounts of persistent assholes/trolls. The asshole/troll would see their posts in place, and the admins could see them if they chose, but they would be invisible to other readers.

Sadly, I have no suggestions that are actually applicable.

Still not getting it. But here's someone who does:

@ Maureen Brian, John Morales et al

I don’t have a problem with “naughty words” or swearing. I’m a grownup and appreciate it as a way to let off steam or add colour to a narrative, but I don’t see the need to use vile insults and profanity as an unnecessary adjunct to debate, just because you don’t happen to agree.

There seems to be a culture of viciousness here, where it’s seen as cool and wonderful here to call unsuspecting commenters assholes, rape apologists etc and to go fuck themselves etc. I would think most newbs commenting here wouldn’t be used to that sort of treatment, so that immediately puts them at a disadvantage.

Fuckin' A. To which the response is:

Do you agree:
1) That there is a distinction between fact and opinion?
2) That some opinions justify, indeed demand, an angry response? I’ll give you an example. Recently, I was in a group where one person gave as his opinion that: “Hitler had the right idea about gypsies.” Should I, in your opinion, have calmly said that, while I disagreed with his opinion, he was of course quite entitled to have such an opinion, and to express it?
3) That it is a common tactic for bigots of various kinds to present themselves on blogs such as this as “Just asking questions”, when in fact they know perfectly well what answers would be given to those questions by those they are ostensibly asking, or could readily discover this information by reading the very thread they are commenting on? If so, how would you deal with constantly repeated instances of this?

So basically,

WE CAN'T MAKE THE FORUM NICE BECAUSE OF THE EVIL JAQ TROLLS! IT'S ALL BECAUSE OF THEM! SOME PEOPLE DON'T HAVE A RIGHT TO SPEAK BECAUSE HITLER! OH GOD I'M TRIGGERING JUST THINKING ABOUT IT!!! :roll: :roll: :roll:

This is only about the 100th time in this thread that "jaq" trolling has been mentioned as an excuse for treating every single new poster like shit if that person doesn't 100% agree with the FTB party line.

[another lurker]

Re: the debt situation, yes it is a very big deal. These folks are already in the hole for 2 - 3 years of salary since they became indebted to that amount when they agreed to go to Dubai to work with the promise of much higher wages than is being offered once they get in country.

Re: Dubai deporting people causing problems, it's not what I heard, it's the reverse, Dubai imprisons people causing problems unless their is sufficient world outrage focused on them.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/eamonnfingl ... in-prison/

I found this article a few weeks ago, and it had me surfing Dubai stuff for a few hours. That's the limit of my knowledge, I could easily be wrong:

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/com ... 64368.html

[youtube]YQZy2zCwxR0[/youtube]

Suspicious accidents, undernourishment, sleep deprivation, rape, growth-retarding injections; the stories of young veteran jockeys Rafiq, Nasir, Ronnie, Amirul, Lokmon, Mobarak and Hasan are truly appalling. Desert Riders gives us a shocking look behind the scenes of camel racing in the wealthy United Arab Emirates - a sport that grew from local to international prominence in the 1980s. The need for light jockeys led to a trade in very young, illegally imported children from poor countries such as Sudan, Pakistan and Bangladesh - a modern form of slavery. This documentary chronicles the rise and prohibition of the use of child jockeys, using interviews with former jockeys, local and international children's rights activists, a British photographer, parents, child traffickers and camel farmers. These interviews are intercut with footage showing the atmosphere around camel races, accompanied by an almost omnipresent soundtrack. Unfortunately, the ban has not put an end to their suffering, as children returning to their homes no longer recognize their families, don't speak the language, or are sick. The director of the Camel Race Association simply dismisses all the stories as lies and propaganda. Although the jockeys have now been replaced by robots, it remains unclear whether children still work on the ranches or not.

[James Caruthers]

Surely there are safe space rape survivor forums for people who are in that situation. I thought this was an atheist blog, not a rape survivor blog.

Everywhere with more than a half dozen people is a rape survivor space. EVERYWHERE. It’s just not safe or encouraged to admit that fact, because of attitudes like yours.

Answered in more depth here: link to discussion in Feb (see also comments #693 and 694 in that thread)

You're really going to say that? And nice, implied that his "attitude" is contributing to rape survivors feeling unsafe. Victimhood narrative, always gotta have the victimhood narrative.

So I guess because mental illness is really common, everywhere with more than a half dozen people is a mental illness space. It's just not safe to admit that on FTBlogs because PZ makes jokes demeaning the mentally ill. :P Do I have that right, FTB? :roll:

Honestly, rape survivor spaces are a good thing. But I think going to FTB as a rape survivor is probably the worst thing somebody can do for themselves. I don't see a lot of healing happening over there, they seem to be feeding off of each others' misery and getting worse. Leaving a rape support group thread open to the asshole FTB public was just asking for trouble. Something that sensitive should be invite-only.

Edit: Roxie (poster asking if FTB was really supposed to be a rape survivor blog) got banned by PZ for being an "obvious troll."
[youtube]5QCxyns1lrg[/youtube]

[sacha]

if it was legal for adults to engage in prostitution in the US, sex trafficking of minors in the US would drop off the radar.

again you are conflating two different things. sex trafficking of adults may drop off the radar, not sex trafficking of minors.

[another lurker]

uh, one is a depressant, one is a hardcore stimulant.
My guess would be that legalising marijuana will have absolutely no effect on methamphetamine sales

I have heard that meth use is also highest in economically depressed areas. Former factory towns whose jobs have now been outsourced to China etc.

[Cunning Punt]

Reading some of the recent Pharyngula threads and I came across good ol' Setar:

Setár, genderqueer Elf-Sheriff of Atheism+

31 August 2013 at 2:47 pm (UTC -5)

#285:

t s th hght f nttlmnt t ct s thgh y r llwd t mk whtvr clms y wsh bt n ctvst grp, jst bcs tht grp hs vwpnts y dm “t rdcl”.

dn’t knw wh t ws tht wrngd y. Mnly bcs n n n th fckng frm hs sd jck sht bt nythng y’v mntnd thr. Myb knw sm f th ppl y’r tlkng bt, bt mst lkly knw thm frm bfr + — mstly frm hr, prbbly.

+ hs nthng t d wth yr prsnl dspts. ndrstnd f y dsgr wth + n sm wy, bt tht’s nt fckng lcnc t tss s ndr th bs nd blm s fr whtvr bd sht hppns t y whn lt f s prbbly dn’t vn knw y mr thn s nm n th cmmnts. S <>lv s th fck t f ths, pls.

Seriously? Do I need to start using a fucking translator program to read A+theism people's rants? I'm currently learning my 3rd language, one that has 3 different written scripts, and that shit is easier to make sense of than this headache inducing crap...

http://i1322.photobucket.com/albums/u58 ... 78797.jpeg

Are you kidding? That's the most sense he's ever made.

[Verklagekasper]

http://i.imgur.com/zQRtH56.jpg

Out of date, stupid, and disposable?

[Service Dog]

Religion, like this faultless victim mentality perpetuated by third-wave feminism, keeps people who would benefit from therapy and counseling from seeking it out.

Yup, third wave feminism teaches deeply-troubled individuals to use the vocabulary of post-modern academia-- to cast themselves as victims, but the problem isn't exclusive to third-wave feminism.

Second wave feminism (Germaine Greer, Steinem) taught same victimhood lesson to trainwrecks like Valerie Solanas and Andrea Dworkin, using the vocabulary of grassroots revolutionary movements (the Non-Aligned Movement, Black Nationalism, Che Guevara).

http://www.theguardian.com/books/booksb ... 0-years-on

And the first wave Suffragette/Temperance movement was most directly related to religion, co-opting the vocabulary of that era's tent revivals to recruit loony victims, like Britain's Emily Davison, who stepped into the track during a horse race and was trampled to death by the racing pack/ while trying to pin a Suffragette ribbon on the King's horse. The term "Suffragette" was coined by the Daily Mail to distinguish a new breed of activists, who traded in melodramatic, self-harming public spectacles, from the previous Suffragists, who conducted themselves like conventional political organizers.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/you/art ... horse.html

[Gefan]

Reading some of the recent Pharyngula threads and I came across good ol' Setar:

Setár, genderqueer Elf-Sheriff of Atheism+

31 August 2013 at 2:47 pm (UTC -5)

#285:

t s th hght f nttlmnt t ct s thgh y r llwd t mk whtvr clms y wsh bt n ctvst grp, jst bcs tht grp hs vwpnts y dm “t rdcl”.

dn’t knw wh t ws tht wrngd y. Mnly bcs n n n th fckng frm hs sd jck sht bt nythng y’v mntnd thr. Myb knw sm f th ppl y’r tlkng bt, bt mst lkly knw thm frm bfr + — mstly frm hr, prbbly.

+ hs nthng t d wth yr prsnl dspts. ndrstnd f y dsgr wth + n sm wy, bt tht’s nt fckng lcnc t tss s ndr th bs nd blm s fr whtvr bd sht hppns t y whn lt f s prbbly dn’t vn knw y mr thn s nm n th cmmnts. S <>lv s th fck t f ths, pls.

Seriously? Do I need to start using a fucking translator program to read A+theism people's rants? I'm currently learning my 3rd language, one that has 3 different written scripts, and that shit is easier to make sense of than this headache inducing crap...

http://i1322.photobucket.com/albums/u58 ... 78797.jpeg

Are you kidding? That's the most sense he's ever made.

I think it's what he sounds like whenever he gets the bong stuck in his throat.

[Cunt of Personality]

http://i.imgur.com/zQRtH56.jpg

Out of date, stupid, and disposable?

Yellow.