Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

[BarnOwl]

Can anyone figure out what Ophelia is on about here?

http://www.freezepage.com/1371417442VGETDKKYDI

Yeah, I didn't think so.

It seemed like she manufactured some misunderstanding so she could correct it. I'm honestly not trying to pick on her but she quotes one definition of benevolent sexism that she came across without saying whether or not it's a popular definition or even where she read it.

Just found her source:

Still don't know how she turned that into "feminism means that women just want to get their work done without being interrupted by unwanted flirtations. Except for chill girls, who want to get hit on all the time so they don't have to work."

[Phil_Giordana_FCD]

100000.png

Is it just me, or does Benson look a LOT like Emperor palpatin?

[AndrewV69]

Hey guys, if you want to talk about your prostates, go right ahead. ;)

Let us not and say we did?

Have you gotten round to watching that documentary yet?

Fraid not. I tried to play the downloaded file and got an error message that open.live.bbc.co.uk could not be found

We are aware of reports from users who have been unable to play downloaded Windows Media Player files.

This issue is under investigation and we apologise for any inconvenience that this caused.

In the meantime if you continue to experience issues you may wish to download content onto BBC iPlayer Desktop or click-to-play (stream) the content.

One option of course is to strip the DRM from the file but right now I can not be arsed to go mucking around with it. If Auntie does not want me to watch her content I am really not too bothered.

I might look into it later on though, but do not hold your breath. So far I have :

- set up a VPN for the BBC.
- downloaded the documentry while I was sleeping.
- booted up windoze and because it needs Adobe Air I had to install it.

Now Auntie Beeb wants me to do some further messing about with BBC specific Windoze based tools or investigate stripping DRM from the file.

OR ... go back and stream the documentary (if it is still available at this point) which is simply not convenient for me at this moment in time.

[cunt]

Forget it.

[Gumby]

I'm gonna feel like a sweatshop orphan when you start putting up pitch perfect color ensembles :D

I'm gonna be your Kathie Lee Gifford, biatch!

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd24 ... 5cbcc6.png

Now back to work, or no gruel for you!!!

[KiwiInOz]

Now, a few days ago Rebecca Watson had a post up about an Australian military commander exhorting his colleagues to not tolerate sexual harassment in the military and ended it by saying she wished A/S had more leaders like him and not like Shermer, Lindsay, and Grothe, tacitly implying that those men would tolerate sexual harassment. This, apparently is not "the shit."

So in essence, the message is that skillful character assassination, practiced by a person versed in sliding the stiletto discreetly between her target's ribs, are not an issue that might need to be addressed, while satirical and humorous photoshopping are critical issues imperiling the movement.

Rebecca Watson poisons everything.

I thought that it was Rebecca saying that a strong man should always be in charge.

[Kareem]

Can anyone figure out what Ophelia is on about here?

http://www.freezepage.com/1371417442VGETDKKYDI

Yeah, I didn't think so.

It seemed like she manufactured some misunderstanding so she could correct it. I'm honestly not trying to pick on her but she quotes one definition of benevolent sexism that she came across without saying whether or not it's a popular definition or even where she read it.

Just found her source:

Still don't know how she turned that into "feminism means that women just want to get their work done without being interrupted by unwanted flirtations. Except for chill girls, who want to get hit on all the time so they don't have to work."

So this was more of her monitoring people she doesn't like without making it as obvious as her harassment posts?

[KiwiInOz]

Just listening to the Vacula/Silverman podcast and it reminds me of when Thunderf00t thought he had the mad debating skillz to take on Ray Comfort. He didn't, and Justin neither do you. You let Silverman run rings around you on your own podcast. There's a difference between being all nice and reasonable and letting someone take a shit on your lawn and ask you to clean it up.

The trouble is that when a guest starts to fly off the handle like that, you have to have mad interview skilz to get them back in order, particularly when they've sensed that what they're doing is working for them. That shouldn't be a requirement for any podcast host to have in order to make a half-decent recording. My impression is that Justin did what could be done to get him back on track. In the midst of lecturing Justin about being professional and mature, Silverman should have once asked himself whether that was the way he was conducting himself in that interview. As it was, he took a shit on the show, himself, Vacula and everyone listening to it. It was an utter waste of time.

I can't blame Justin for not being able to control an angry ranter who came to that podcast specifically to wreck the place. Justin's style is fine for the typical guests podcasters have on their shows and the normal (non-antagonistic) give-and-take that goes on in a typical podcast. Even in a simple podcast there is a reasonable expectation of courtesy and professionalism from both parties. Silverman broke that unspoken rule in spectacular fashion, and I don't fault Justin for being taken aback. He deserves quite a bit of credit for remaining calm and on an even keel during that ridiculous attack. Given that I am frequently one of Justin's biggest critics here, I don't say that lightly.

Let's put the blame where the blame belongs - on Silverman. Had he behaved like a decent human being, this could have been an awesome podcast. He could have had the exact same opinions but delivered in a fashion that allowed mature and enlightening give-and-take with Justin. Instead, Silverman just went in there and started screaming and wildly gesticulating his arms while ranting about "shit" and "Good News". He wasn't there for debate, he was there to score some cheap points for his FtB buddies using FtB commentariat shrieking techniques. It was an utterly disgusting display from someone in such a high position in the community. For all the hand-wringing the baboons do over the 'Pit, their isn't one of us who would behave that way on one of their podcasts.

Sad thing is, everyone in the community will probably line up to fawn over Silverman because of his tantrum, because Vacula's (and the Slymepit's) well has been so effectively poisoned by the usual suspects that people will just assume we deserved it, even though they haven't actually taken the time to read the 'Pit or understand why there are people vehemently opposed to what the FtB/Skepchick/A+ axis are doing to the community.

Sometimes the best thing for an interviewer to do is give them enough rope and let them engage in autoerotic asphyxiation.

[Parody Accountant]

I'm also Skep tickle.

Got me. Laughed :)

[Guest]

It's an interesting piece.

That was the worst thing i've read this week. Long, rambling, incoherent and boring.

Yes, it was an interesting piece. (For varying and very loose definitions of interesting.)

Thanks for reading it, and confirming it was incoherent. I know the comedian from Rattatouile and that's about it, but I know he is "loved" and heralded.

[Apples]

Can anyone figure out what Ophelia is on about here?

http://www.freezepage.com/1371417442VGETDKKYDI

Yeah, I didn't think so.

All I know is that she refers to "flirtation," "propositions," and "groping" as though these things are distinctions without a difference.

The sad reality is that her "lived experience" gives her no real insight into the issue, and if she wants to denounce "benevolent sexism" she can go ahead and address the incredible obtuseness and condescension she and many of her FTB colleagues demonstrate towards both men and women on a daily basis.

[DeepInsideYourMind]

You know how we all sorta like PZ when he was wailing on creationists, and we thought "yeah we can get behind this guy" and then we realised that all he had going for him was he was good at shouting down creationists, and we thought "oh, just turns out to be full of rage and bile, it wasn't specially put on for the creationists, it's just him". And you know how we sorta liked Matt Dillahunty when he was ripping creationists up on the Atheist Experience and we all laughed and cheered him on when he cut them off, then we realised he was doing it as it was his only way of arguing a point.

I think it seems David Silverman is a bit like that

We all loved it when he wailed on Bill O'Reilly and Fox News, but it turns out, he's just a one trick pony with a lot of rage

I'm actually stunned at how militant Silverman has made American Atheists appear, David Silverman ranted like one of the WBC being confronted by a gay soldier!

[Gumby]

100000.png

Is it just me, or does Benson look a LOT like Emperor palpatin?

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd24 ... af3c9b.png

I gave her some slutty makeup because I knew that would turn you on.

[sacha]

Perhaps you should create a celebratory ritual around your "moon time", or then again you could just shut up about your disgusting, messy lady parts in front of us blokes, we don't want to think about that stuff.
Girls don't do that.

some powerful Patriarchy here, the men can't even get away from women discussing the curse!

trust me, I don't want to think about it either. I just want it gone

Do as you're told woman, stop talking about that icky stuff. Just who is in charge around here?

yes, dear

[Lsuoma]

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd24 ... af3c9b.png

I gave her some slutty makeup because I knew that would turn you on.

Actually, I think it makes her look like she's just had a good shoeing.

Oh, no! More victim points...

[curriejean]

Justin picked up on the hilarity too, judging by his tone. "The good news?" And there was this awkward pause during which Silverman may have realized how ridiculous it sounded but decided, 'Ah, fuck it,' and kept on to keep up his valuable illusion of infallibility.

I think he momentarily struggled to believe that "the good news" would be taken and spun to mean that he was attempting to force some kind of dogma on Vacula. When he spent about 20 minutes explaining how that was not his intention.

He may have spent some time repeating that it was not his intention, but he was doing it anyway. There was no "explaining how." Refusal to meet reasonable standards of evidence, sexist/racist arguments from ignorance, special pleading, it's all there in the 'interview' (rant) and it screams of dogmatism and demagoguery. A selection from within just the first fifteen minutes:

I don't need to give examples. What I need to make a statement about is the fact that we have to treat women equally and respectfully as colleagues and as respected advocates. [...] The point is, that we you and me cannot perceive the world as women. So we have to take it for granted when someone tells us something from a different point of view, and it's prevalent, we have to take it seriously. If a black person comes to me and says, "I see racism in this community," and if I get that from two, three, four black people at the same time, I'm not in a position to say, "Nah, that doesn't exist," because that's crap! I'm not in a position to see it!

He would be in a position to see it, and so would Justin and the rest of us, if he would acknowledge the value of evidence -- but his dogma's preference for arguments from ignorance and emotion stands in the way of that.

This is about you. And I'm not gonna sit here and say, "Well PZ Myers said this and Rebecca said that and Greta said this." My point is, this shit -- and I want you to recognize this, Justin. I want you to recognize, please please please recognize, that I am trying to help you, okay? I'm trying to make you a better activist. I'm trying to make you a great activist. I'm trying to make everybody a great activist. And you can't be a great activist until you totally. Dismiss. The shit. Until you stop saying, "Well, give me an example of the shit." No no no no no. You have to recognize Justin, that you are part of the shit.

[BarnOwl]

UnknownEric the Apostate
16 June 2013 at 1:04 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
You don’t understand, PZ… we took their toy (the atheist movement) away from them. And now they’re gonna hold their breath until we give it back. See them turning red right now.

Not really seeing how the "atheist movement" ever belonged to the 'Pytters, so how can it be "taken away" from us? Another dishonest FtB narrative.

[deLurch]

My perception on the interview... if you can call it that, is that David Silverman went all Bill O'Rielly on Justin's ass.

[Lsuoma]

Real actors read christian forums:

[youtube]Xr2mjjSyvA4[/youtube]

[cunt]

I can't blame Justin for not being able to control an angry ranter who came to that podcast specifically to wreck the place. Justin's style is fine for the typical guests podcasters have on their shows and the normal (non-antagonistic) give-and-take that goes on in a typical podcast. Even in a simple podcast there is a reasonable expectation of courtesy and professionalism from both parties. Silverman broke that unspoken rule in spectacular fashion, and I don't fault Justin for being taken aback. He deserves quite a bit of credit for remaining calm and on an even keel during that ridiculous attack. Given that I am frequently one of Justin's biggest critics here, I don't say that lightly.

Justin has been going around the atheist/skeptic community for the past 6-9 months asking just about everyone he can find for a "debate" on his blog, comments and radio show. Always - slightly smugly - falling back on the assumption that because Ophelia Benson won't talk to him that he's invulnerable. Nobody will debate me because my points are just too strong!!

The fact is that he actually fucking sucks as a debater and as an interviewer, and to expect a guest with an opposing view to play nice because bawww... is naive at best. As far as i'm concerned he's gotten off lightly with both Fincke and Silverman.

Let's put the blame where the blame belongs - on Silverman. Had he behaved like a decent human being, this could have been an awesome podcast. He could have had the exact same opinions but delivered in a fashion that allowed mature and enlightening give-and-take with Justin. Instead, Silverman just went in there and started screaming and wildly gesticulating his arms while ranting about "shit" and "Good News". He wasn't there for debate, he was there to score some cheap points for his FtB buddies using FtB commentariat shrieking techniques. It was an utterly disgusting display from someone in such a high position in the community. For all the hand-wringing the baboons do over the 'Pit, their isn't one of us who would behave that way on one of their podcasts.

Did he? Listen to it again. There's no screaming, there's no wild gesticulations.

Sad thing is, everyone in the community will probably line up to fawn over Silverman because of his tantrum, because Vacula's (and the Slymepit's) well has been so effectively poisoned by the usual suspects that people will just assume we deserved it, even though they haven't actually taken the time to read the 'Pit or understand why there are people vehemently opposed to what the FtB/Skepchick/A+ axis are doing to the community.

Vacula let him get away with that shit. The conflation of rape-threats with dumbass photoshops and jokes. I mean, fuck! If Justin actually had a nutsack and a pair of braincells he'd have been able to take that one apart. Instead he allows it and openly wonders why he's to blame for his "loose associates", meaning us. Except we didn't send Rebecca Watson rape threats or jokes, or call her "too ugly to be raped" did we? That was random youtube commenters, and he should have been okay with denouncing that while underlining this extremely simple point.

[Gumby]

UnknownEric the Apostate
16 June 2013 at 1:04 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
You don’t understand, PZ… we took their toy (the atheist movement) away from them. And now they’re gonna hold their breath until we give it back. See them turning red right now.

Not really seeing how the "atheist movement" ever belonged to the 'Pytters, so how can it be "taken away" from us? Another dishonest FtB narrative.

The atheist movement, if there really is one, belongs to all atheists who choose to participate in it. It is not "theirs", and they have no ability to take it away from anyone. Yeah I know he thought he was being funny when he said that, but it speaks to the mentality these people have that the atheist movement is theirs for the taking.

[Tigzy]

UnknownEric the Apostate
16 June 2013 at 1:04 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
You don’t understand, PZ… we took their toy (the atheist movement) away from them. And now they’re gonna hold their breath until we give it back. See them turning red right now.

Not really seeing how the "atheist movement" ever belonged to the 'Pytters, so how can it be "taken away" from us? Another dishonest FtB narrative.

As well as dumb. They never really did get the concept of reification fallacies.

[Lsuoma]

For SN and sacha:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/145386539X/

[sacha]

Can anyone figure out what Ophelia is on about here?

http://www.freezepage.com/1371417442VGETDKKYDI

Yeah, I didn't think so.

Now it’s true that there are some women who are (or claim to be) perfectly happy to be subject to clumsy attempts at flirtation (and plain old propositions and gropings) at all times in all situations. I think some of them claim this just to disagree with feminists, and think somewhat differently when dealing with actual clumsy attempts – but never mind that; take them all at their word; I still don’t think their wants should trump the wants of women who don’t want that.

even if one ignores the ridiculousness of the first part of the paragraph, the part I bolded is the reason I got involved with this whole thing in the first place. 2009 Rebecca Watson and
Carrie Ewan telling men what to do and what not to do (implicitly to all women). I was already outspoken about Becci's blatant sexism on the SGU when that episode was up, and so I was already well annoyed by the time she gave her "guys don't do that" speech, and told men who did not "get it", even though many asked legitimate questions, to go get a watermelon or blow-up-doll and have sex with that.

Don't fucking speak for me, you imbecilic, annoying, screechy bitch. What Becky Watson, Stefunny Zvan, Ohfeefee, XXXtina, and all the others with a "sacred pussy" want, is NOT what I want.

[AndrewV69]

Forget it.

OK but are you sure? I did a search on youtube and this appears to be it:

The Unspeakable Crime Rape BBC Full Documentary Crime documentary 2013
[youtube]LnnbqeJt9GM[/youtube]

I am currently downloading to watch later.

[Karmakin]

Can anyone figure out what Ophelia is on about here?

http://www.freezepage.com/1371417442VGETDKKYDI

Yeah, I didn't think so.

Now it’s true that there are some women who are (or claim to be) perfectly happy to be subject to clumsy attempts at flirtation (and plain old propositions and gropings) at all times in all situations. I think some of them claim this just to disagree with feminists, and think somewhat differently when dealing with actual clumsy attempts – but never mind that; take them all at their word; I still don’t think their wants should trump the wants of women who don’t want that.

even if one ignores the ridiculousness of the first part of the paragraph, the part I bolded is the reason I got involved with this whole thing in the first place. 2009 Rebecca Watson and
Carrie Ewan telling men what to do and what not to do (implicitly to all women). I was already outspoken about Becci's blatant sexism on the SGU when that episode was up, and so I was already well annoyed by the time she gave her "guys don't do that" speech, and told men who did not "get it", even though many asked legitimate questions, to go get a watermelon or blow-up-doll and have sex with that.

Don't fucking speak for me, you imbecilic, annoying, screechy bitch. What Becky Watson, Stefunny Zvan, Ohfeefee, XXXtina, and all the others with a "sacred pussy" want, is NOT what I want.

Well, here was my take on it, as someone who was on the other side at that particular time.

#1. I took their word (I know, stupid in hindsight) that skeptical conferences were more sexually forward in nature than other types of events, as I've never been to one. Live on the ass-end of North America and all that.

#2. That there were many (most?) women who wouldn't take part in skepticism because they are turned off by flirting.

#3. As such, strong measures against that behavior are needed in order to increase the numbers of women in the skeptical movement.

So. What did I learn after that?

#1. Skeptical conferences are pretty tame, all things considered. While yes, things do get more rowdy in the presence of alcohol...what the hell did they think would happen? A leads to B.

#2. I...umm...entirely overestimated women's negative reactions to sexual forwardness. That's actually something that I've come to increasing grips with over the last year or so, in my own personal life. Truth is, most women seem to want to feel chased, to be pursued. I'm not particularly GOOD at this, having some pretty strong social anxiety, but at least I'm getting over it with my wife.

#3. The actual problem is the privilege. With the exception of Benson, who I honestly do think wants no part of this stuff, there was ZERO interest in hard and fast rules against flirting at skeptical conventions. Now it seems to me, for people who think that #1 and #2 above are true, this is an obvious conclusion. But no. See, what they want is that they only want the RIGHT people to pursue them. For men to be mind readers. Basically, they were claiming privilege.

So yeah. That's how I got from there to here. I do have to thank them in a way, as I do think that their privilege claiming lead to some very positive growth on my part. So yay for that. At least SOME good came out of the whole mess, right?

[cunt]

Forget it.

OK but are you sure? I did a search on youtube and this appears to be it:

The Unspeakable Crime Rape BBC Full Documentary Crime documentary 2013
[youtube]LnnbqeJt9GM[/youtube]

I am currently downloading to watch later.

You're downloading the youtube video to watch later? Right, good. Great. Whatever.

[Mykeru]

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd24 ... 9c1885.png

I am so stealing that. It fits in perfectly with the vid I'm working. Credit

[Steersman]

Can anyone figure out what Ophelia is on about here?

http://www.freezepage.com/1371417442VGETDKKYDI

Yeah, I didn't think so.

<snip>

Don't fucking speak for me, you imbecilic, annoying, screechy bitch. What Becky Watson, Stefunny Zvan, Ohfeefee, XXXtina, and all the others with a "sacred pussy" want, is NOT what I want.

Yea, an egregious amount of sexism – and demagoguery too – there, I think, in Watson’s implicit assumption that all women think, or should think, the same as she does, and in her attempt to speak for them all.

[Gumby]

I am so stealing that. It fits in perfectly with the vid I'm working. Credit

Have at it. But don't use that version, I did a crap job and made a bunch of errors. Use this instead.

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd24 ... dfd387.png

[Aneris]

Ellen Beth Wachs comes out clean. Resigns Secular Women, and lights a bit behind the scenes. Evil Stephanie Zvan comes out as expected.

When I was viciously attacked on the Pharyngula thread, I posted in the support group asking for help. With that knowledge, Stephanie Zvan, shut me down cold stating in no uncertain terms that I was not to bring that issue to that group. In other words, the group was only for support for when OTHERS i.e slymepitters attacked. I abided by her request but another member opened the thread up for discussion. Stephanie also came onto the Pharyngula thread and tried to shut me down there.

Even though I disliked some of her stuff in the past, too, she got my support (whatever that means).

[Mykeru]

Anyway, the show goes on and I will put out more content relating to my activism this year - more than all FTB writers, Skepchick writers, and A+ people combined will likely engage in this year and maybe even several (and, no, holding up signs at a conference is not activism; it is slacktivism) and it's a whole hell lot better than a 9/11 cross lawsuit...

Whilst I think you do have a fair few reasons to be annoyed with David Justin I think there are a couple of things you could take away from the encounter and benefit from.

The Surly Amy thing - I don't think you should have done that. Yes, I know the details were there for someone else to dig up, but still. I just think that if you think it's likely that someone might find it embarrassing or intimidating to have info they shared in one arena shared in another - even online - then it's a bit of a poor show to do it without their permission. And yes - I know that 'They' do it too, but still.

Perhaps things like his opinion of your retweets and so on - provided it was more of a "how to be an activist" rather than a personal rebuke - might be helpful to take on board. He is right that it is childish so, even though it's funny and even though 'They' do stuff which is in many ways equivalent - you would make all the more credible an atheist pundit if you toned down your own inclinations in regard to fanning the flames.

That's me being generous to him. I hated his attitude on the show and really thought that his refusal to accept the importance of evidence - as well as the fact that he seemed to advocate the whole "listen to the women (who agree with me)" trope was really off-putting.

However - perhaps some of his criticism is best understood as "from one activist to another" rather than the patronising rant it comes across as.

Justin,

One mistake you make is you don't make clear that what you published was SURLY AMY'S BUSINESS ADDRESS. It doesn't matter if it was her home. It was listed as part of her money-making operation, published by her for that purpose. That is why the argument that people were releasing her "personal information" is ludicrous.

If you don't make it clear that it was out there for HER BUSINESS and make people like Silverman acknowledge that, they will take this bullshit moral highground. Make clear it was information in the public because she published it for her business.

Also,

Never let anyone talk over you. Never let anyone act as if your speaking is just an opportunity to take a breath and say what they were going to say anyway.

Never be afraid to backtrack or hold ground. Very often you would say something, like pointing out all the name calling and harassment coming from FTB and Silverman says "that's because you are mired in the shit". And you chuckle. It was obvious Silverman wasn't listening to a word you said. There's no rule that says you can't stop and actually ask a clown like that "Did you understand what I just said" and don't take "yes" for an answer.

That's ideal, of course. I don't think anyone could have handled the sheer nonsense coming from Silverman, the rambling of the Threat Narrative fiction, but you did an excellent job of keeping your shit together. I probably would have sputtered and eventually shot myself in the head.

Man, used car salesmen are less full of crap than that guy.

[Mykeru]

Ellen Beth Wachs comes out clean. Resigns Secular Women, and lights a bit behind the scenes. Evil Stephanie Zvan comes out as expected.

When I was viciously attacked on the Pharyngula thread, I posted in the support group asking for help. With that knowledge, Stephanie Zvan, shut me down cold stating in no uncertain terms that I was not to bring that issue to that group. In other words, the group was only for support for when OTHERS i.e slymepitters attacked. I abided by her request but another member opened the thread up for discussion. Stephanie also came onto the Pharyngula thread and tried to shut me down there.

Even though I disliked some of her stuff in the past, too, she got my support (whatever that means).

So, it's true they have a secret "support group" where they shape the threat narrative.

[AndrewV69]

Forget it.

OK but are you sure? I did a search on youtube and this appears to be it:

The Unspeakable Crime Rape BBC Full Documentary Crime documentary 2013
LnnbqeJt9GM

I am currently downloading to watch later.

You're downloading the youtube video to watch later? Right, good. Great. Whatever.

Yep.

Remember I told you my usual habit is to listen to the audio only while doing other stuff. You insisted that I should watch as well as listen.

In my case that means I have to set aside some time to give it my undivided attention.

[Zenspace]

can I just say that I love the Slyme Pit? This place is surreal.

:mrgreen: Ladies, come to the Slymepit for your daily nugget of evidence-based women's health info! :mrgreen:

I think it's neat to share our experiences & tips about this stuff, and even to blather on about it (yep, that would be me), amidst the craziness in A/S, and arguments about whatever the topic-du-jour is. Freewheeling conversation FTW!

....and here on seven second delay from the coast...

I've been happily mired in an art show all weekend (good sales!) and it seems it has been a very busy weekend at the Pyt, too! Trying to catch up (Silverman has long been a major asshole and has been doing more harm than good - IMHO - for a while now. his 'performance' with Justin just confirmed my suspicions about that asshole in spades ) but wanted to comment on Sacha's and Skep tickles comments here, which I think are far more important than might be superficially apparent: Yes - the Pyt is an amazing place. the fact that the Pyt women can speak freely about personal topics like this without fear of male harassment (excluding good natured ribbing of course!) speaks volumes. I posit that this is the clearest, strongest, most irrefutable example of the freedom that exists at the Pyt regardless of gender and why I've grown so enamored of it.

Well done. :clap:

[Zenspace]

This trend is convincing me more and more that I should be considering myself primarily a skeptic, and an atheist secondary. I hadn't realized it was this way, but it seems it is. I got to atheism rationally, skeptically, not because theism contradicts some other political ideology I hold dear. I mistakenly assumed others came to it the same way, when it seems in many cases they didn't. Theists aren't something to be afraid of! Jeez, I'll be debating an enthusiastically evangelical group of them in August for the fifth year in a row (March for Jesus / simultaneous March for Myths, fun times). It's gone more or less swimmingly every year. Many of them are easy enough to relate to, and most of them are much more personable than Silverman was tonight.

This subject has come up briefly from time to time, but yes, same here. I came by my atheism over a long period of time, although I had my suspicions early on in my teens. It was clear very early that the church as nothing more than a money generating scam, but the actual god question took a bit longer to personally sort out. It wasn't until I had investigated a long series of 'proofs for god' and all turned out to be empty, baseless claims that the likely truth became increasingly clear. So, yes, I got here by skepticism. It was quite an unpleasant surprise to learn that other atheists did bot necessarily arrive here the same way. Worse, was the realization that many (most?) atheists are just as susceptible to dogmatism and broken ideology as the theistic population. True skeptics (simply meaning individuals who can maintain a fairly high and consistent level of skepticism on an ongoing basis) are a very small minority. This is the same reason that I suspect that the human race is eventually going to exterminate itself (or come really close to it) - out of simple, pure, blind stupidity. FftB/Skepchick/A+ and now Silverman are the living examples within the atheist community of why this fate is likely inevitable.

[Aneris]

Ellen Beth Wachs comes out clean. Resigns Secular Women, and lights a bit behind the scenes. Evil Stephanie Zvan comes out as expected.

When I was viciously attacked on the Pharyngula thread, I posted in the support group asking for help. With that knowledge, Stephanie Zvan, shut me down cold stating in no uncertain terms that I was not to bring that issue to that group. In other words, the group was only for support for when OTHERS i.e slymepitters attacked. I abided by her request but another member opened the thread up for discussion. Stephanie also came onto the Pharyngula thread and tried to shut me down there.

Even though I disliked some of her stuff in the past, too, she got my support (whatever that means).

So, it's true they have a secret "support group" where they shape the threat narrative.

I'm just through. I wouldn't read too much into that aspect, but of course, they have some backchannels (though I don't quite understand what the issue is with that, people have informal networks all the time). It doesn't look like some conspiracy theory, though.

More like manipulative and scheming individuals like Stephanie Zvan who deliberately represents facts or uses them for her advantage. She, and others simply exploit that people usually don't have time or interest in chasing down every issue, thus are content with being told how terrible we are.

For some time, I was the same way. I simply didn't care enough to be bothered to look it up. Only when PZ Myers' yarn on face value already didn't make sense and the Slymepit was mentioned over and over, I thought: alright, I go checking.

In that piece, I find it very interesting how even a completely original PZ Myers quote, written originally by him, on his very own twitter account, tweet originally by him, from his very own computer, from his own home, is attributed to us.

Last night in the group, Mary Ellen once again posted something but this was in reference to Russell Blackford and she got the quote wrong. She claimed that Russell was quoting David Silverman calling Justin “deeply demented” and a “lying fucktard.” Stephanie popped in to state that it was, “Blackford complaining about things that PZ had called him though actually, only one of them is something PZ seems to have said. A google search suggests the source of “lying fucktard” is the pit. Go Figure. Inaccurate information from the pit.”

I knew that there was a tweet out there about this so found it and I posted it with the comment that PZ was actually the source of the “Lying Fucktard” remark not realizing that thee was going to be a HUGE issue made out of the difference between “fucktard” and “fuckhead” *sigh* I get put on notice by Elsa Roberts that I am about to get banned because I corrected slandered Stephanie Zvan. NO dissent allowed!

[Zenspace]

"Let go of your jimmies.
Seek Unrustlement."
That's made my day.

I've been admiring that sig for some time now. Probably should have said something. :D

I need that on a t-shirt.

[Tigzy]

Ellen Beth Wachs comes out clean. Resigns Secular Women, and lights a bit behind the scenes. Evil Stephanie Zvan comes out as expected.

When I was viciously attacked on the Pharyngula thread, I posted in the support group asking for help. With that knowledge, Stephanie Zvan, shut me down cold stating in no uncertain terms that I was not to bring that issue to that group. In other words, the group was only for support for when OTHERS i.e slymepitters attacked. I abided by her request but another member opened the thread up for discussion. Stephanie also came onto the Pharyngula thread and tried to shut me down there.

Even though I disliked some of her stuff in the past, too, she got my support (whatever that means).

This bit caught my eye:

P.S. In six months of being in a group with the main players of this drama not one shred of evidence of harassment at conferences was ever produced.

Well. Fancy that.

[free thoughtpolice]

Is it possible that there is an existing photo of blogger Ophelia Benson smiling? She always looks dour, if looks could kill or at least maim.

[Aneris]

This bit caught my eye:

P.S. In six months of being in a group with the main players of this drama not one shred of evidence of harassment at conferences was ever produced.

Well. Fancy that.

But let you catch you right there. I agree that the whole thing is cooked way too hot (to degrees that make the sun's core seem chilly), but at the same time there is a fallacy following swiftly. The idea that one needs evidence to be against something is completely misguided. Silverman made the idiotic mistake yesterday as well. You don't have to have a fascist regime to be against it, for example. It's a good idea to be against it to prevent it from cropping up again.

With that being said. The issue is with what it means being against something. And is it actually a solvable issue? How much "being against" do you need until you think it's enough? Or how much denouncing do you need? How many people have to call out a troll, so that the troll is recognized as such and their actions aren't used against the regular people? And so on. The complete breakdown of critical thinking in Silverman and the Clown Car, Fainting Couch, Baboons etc. gave way to exploit the issue to further their own agenda.

[debaser71]

WNEP-TV writer Julia Melf authored an article titled “Man Objects To Prayers Before City Council Meetings” concerning my June 13, 2013 address to Wilkes-Barre City Council objecting to government-led prayer urging council to remove prayer from future meetings.

Prayer in Public Meetings is due to be decided June 2014. Honestly, I wouldn't waste my time on this until then. Pick & choose your battles.

My objection was not a legal one. Council may cease prayer due to reasons I, and others, detailed. It's worth the attempt.

If you start with a lawsuit, people complain. If you write a nice letter, people complain. If you complain, people complain. If it ain't the status quo, people complain. Fuck trying to please people and just do what's right in the manner you see fit.

[Mykeru]

Ellen Beth Wachs comes out clean. Resigns Secular Women, and lights a bit behind the scenes. Evil Stephanie Zvan comes out as expected.

When I was viciously attacked on the Pharyngula thread, I posted in the support group asking for help. With that knowledge, Stephanie Zvan, shut me down cold stating in no uncertain terms that I was not to bring that issue to that group. In other words, the group was only for support for when OTHERS i.e slymepitters attacked. I abided by her request but another member opened the thread up for discussion. Stephanie also came onto the Pharyngula thread and tried to shut me down there.

Even though I disliked some of her stuff in the past, too, she got my support (whatever that means).

So, it's true they have a secret "support group" where they shape the threat narrative.

I'm just through. I wouldn't read too much into that aspect, but of course, they have some backchannels (though I don't quite understand what the issue is with that, people have informal networks all the time). It doesn't look like some conspiracy theory, though.

More like manipulative and scheming individuals like Stephanie Zvan who deliberately represents facts or uses them for her advantage. She, and others simply exploit that people usually don't have time or interest in chasing down every issue, thus are content with being told how terrible we are.

For some time, I was the same way. I simply didn't care enough to be bothered to look it up. Only when PZ Myers' yarn on face value already didn't make sense and the Slymepit was mentioned over and over, I thought: alright, I go checking.

In that piece, I find it very interesting how even a completely original PZ Myers quote, written originally by him, on his very own twitter account, tweet originally by him, from his very own computer, from his own home, is attributed to us.

Last night in the group, Mary Ellen once again posted something but this was in reference to Russell Blackford and she got the quote wrong. She claimed that Russell was quoting David Silverman calling Justin “deeply demented” and a “lying fucktard.” Stephanie popped in to state that it was, “Blackford complaining about things that PZ had called him though actually, only one of them is something PZ seems to have said. A google search suggests the source of “lying fucktard” is the pit. Go Figure. Inaccurate information from the pit.”

I knew that there was a tweet out there about this so found it and I posted it with the comment that PZ was actually the source of the “Lying Fucktard” remark not realizing that thee was going to be a HUGE issue made out of the difference between “fucktard” and “fuckhead” *sigh* I get put on notice by Elsa Roberts that I am about to get banned because I corrected slandered Stephanie Zvan. NO dissent allowed!

Well, of course I don't think it's a conspiracy. It's just an echo chamber where the top "mean girls" feed the dupes information pulled from their very own asses and questioning is not allowed. The point is to shore up the threat narrative. Whether this is due to a long con or just mental illness is outside my rank and pay grade (GS 12/5) to discern. Probably a little bit of both.

What reminds me of conspiracists is the projection. Way back when the people in favor of Kennedy having been assassinated by a Chinese Fire Drill consisting of the Trilateral Commission, Carlos Tropicante, Male Models and Lyndon Johnson went on and on about evidence being faked, you know, stuff they found inconvenient, it didn't take too much to point out that every piece of manipulated and misrepresented evidence came from the conspiracy clowns.

Here, we have endless talk of rape threats and rape jokes and sexual imagery and "fuck a knife" but when you trace it back, it's their projecting their own insulting tactics outwards.

And odd that Silverman made so much of "get out of the movement" when that seems to be Stephanie Zvan's specialty.

My shock is non-existent.

[Tigzy]

Zvan's now popped up in the comments section at EBW's blog: http://mycatsaremygods.com/2013/06/16/i ... lar-woman/

[Hemisphere]

Justin,

One mistake you make is you don't make clear that what you published was SURLY AMY'S BUSINESS ADDRESS. It doesn't matter if it was her home. It was listed as part of her money-making operation, published by her for that purpose. That is why the argument that people were releasing her "personal information" is ludicrous.

If you don't make it clear that it was out there for HER BUSINESS and make people like Silverman acknowledge that, they will take this bullshit moral highground. Make clear it was information in the public because she published it for her business.

Also,

Never let anyone talk over you. Never let anyone act as if your speaking is just an opportunity to take a breath and say what they were going to say anyway.

Never be afraid to backtrack or hold ground. Very often you would say something, like pointing out all the name calling and harassment coming from FTB and Silverman says "that's because you are mired in the shit". And you chuckle. It was obvious Silverman wasn't listening to a word you said. There's no rule that says you can't stop and actually ask a clown like that "Did you understand what I just said" and don't take "yes" for an answer.

That's ideal, of course. I don't think anyone could have handled the sheer nonsense coming from Silverman, the rambling of the Threat Narrative fiction, but you did an excellent job of keeping your shit together. I probably would have sputtered and eventually shot myself in the head.

Man, used car salesmen are less full of crap than that guy.

So approach these kinds of debates in the style of Hitchens (like when he refused to take shit from various news anchors)?

[Metalogic42]

Got lots of stuff to catch up on. For now, I present my new avatar, courtesy of Tony Parsehole.

[Kareem]

Zvan's now popped up in the comments section at EBW's blog: http://mycatsaremygods.com/2013/06/16/i ... lar-woman/

:popcorn:

[Zenspace]

Does Silverman have a real job? Or is he just a failed Computer Scientist and Shill Marketing Droid, making ends meet by helping out AA?

I don't necessarily agree with your characterization, but according to the American Atheist's 2011 990 form, this is his full time paid 40 hour/week job.

Just wondering about the size of his stake in all this - pretty large then. As for "failed", I'm happy to include myself in that category as I didn't follow through on any of my qualifications either. I didn't fail at everything, but I am a "failed" Cognitve Scientist. No biggie.

It is a worry when marketing people are the head of your organisation though, even when your only "product" is a "message". Marketers seem happy to subvert that for a "branding" exercise, and the "message" gets lost.

AC - are you familiar with Julian Jaynes' theories on the nature of consciousness?

[Mykeru]

Got lots of stuff to catch up on. For now, I present my new avatar, courtesy of Tony Parsehole.

Not that there's anything wrong with that, but there's a lot wrong with that.

[Metalogic42]

Got lots of stuff to catch up on. For now, I present my new avatar, courtesy of Tony Parsehole.

Not that there's anything wrong with that, but there's a lot wrong with that.

Much like Justin Vacula talking to AVFM at conferences, I am a man of my word.

[Metalogic42]

MetaLogic didn't specify a time limit for his new avatar so he could take it down after 5 minutes.

I answered this in a PM to you before I saw this post. I'll keep it for a few weeks/months.

[Zenspace]

My last post was my #666.

The Debil made me do it! :mrgreen:

[Tigzy]

Got lots of stuff to catch up on. For now, I present my new avatar, courtesy of Tony Parsehole.

:lol: I knew Parsehole wouldn't disappoint.

Quite some father's day gift, there.

[AndrewV69]

Ellen Beth Wachs comes out clean. Resigns Secular Women, and lights a bit behind the scenes. Evil Stephanie Zvan comes out as expected.

When I was viciously attacked on the Pharyngula thread, I posted in the support group asking for help. With that knowledge, Stephanie Zvan, shut me down cold stating in no uncertain terms that I was not to bring that issue to that group. In other words, the group was only for support for when OTHERS i.e slymepitters attacked. I abided by her request but another member opened the thread up for discussion. Stephanie also came onto the Pharyngula thread and tried to shut me down there.

Even though I disliked some of her stuff in the past, too, she got my support (whatever that means).

This bit caught my eye:

P.S. In six months of being in a group with the main players of this drama not one shred of evidence of harassment at conferences was ever produced.

Well. Fancy that.

Mine was this part:

When I saw all of the posts berating Ron and the letter-writing campaign to get him fired, I spoke up and wanted to know what the end-game was. What were they hoping to accomplish? I was told that perhaps either Melody or Rebecca could take his place.

Really? What an interesting notion that either of those two would be qualified for the post. Whereas as far as I can see they are not even qualified for what they do now.

(apart from boozing it up and crying real tears at the drop of a hat and so on)

[Lsuoma]

Zvan's now popped up in the comments section at EBW's blog: http://mycatsaremygods.com/2013/06/16/i ... lar-woman/

From the post:

But the biggest thing I learned when I disappeared from the support group after having just been savaged was that no one cared enough to miss me for almost a week, a person they knew to be suicidal. Let me amend that. Some people did miss me but they weren’t the women in the support group. The first people to take notice of my absence were slymepitters. I also learned that, contrary to popular opinion, not all of the slymepitters are scum.

[Kareem]

Zvan's now popped up in the comments section at EBW's blog: http://mycatsaremygods.com/2013/06/16/i ... lar-woman/

You came saying that those people at Pharyngula couldn’t stand to be disagreed with. I did shut you down on that statement, yes.

So much irony.
I thin we're dealing with people who would kill in the name of pacifism.

[AndrewV69]

Got lots of stuff to catch up on. For now, I present my new avatar, courtesy of Tony Parsehole.

I say! That is a rather "interesting" new avatar.

[Apples]

Zvan's now popped up in the comments section at EBW's blog: http://mycatsaremygods.com/2013/06/16/i ... lar-woman/

From the post:

But the biggest thing I learned when I disappeared from the support group after having just been savaged was that no one cared enough to miss me for almost a week, a person they knew to be suicidal. Let me amend that. Some people did miss me but they weren’t the women in the support group. The first people to take notice of my absence were slymepitters. I also learned that, contrary to popular opinion, not all of the slymepitters are scum.

I am laughing, crying, and shaking with rage-tears and giggles of rustlement, with some jimmies on top.

[Apples]

Got lots of stuff to catch up on. For now, I present my new avatar, courtesy of Tony Parsehole.

Stefanelli? I just .... it's just that ... beautiful.

[AndrewV69]

Zvan's now popped up in the comments section at EBW's blog: http://mycatsaremygods.com/2013/06/16/i ... lar-woman/

From the post:

But the biggest thing I learned when I disappeared from the support group after having just been savaged was that no one cared enough to miss me for almost a week, a person they knew to be suicidal. Let me amend that. Some people did miss me but they weren’t the women in the support group. The first people to take notice of my absence were slymepitters. I also learned that, contrary to popular opinion, not all of the slymepitters are scum.

What can we do about that? The non-scum are clearly ruining our reputation?