Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

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Pepsi

Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#13456

Post by Pepsi »

Eh. I have no idea how that would go. I'm not willing to try, but if anyone else is up for it...

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#13457

Post by John Greg »

As I previously posted, I have entered a comment on Zvan's blog, and one (yet to pass moderation) on Nugent's blog, responding to the initial statments from both Jack and Zvan. However, I have not yet passed moderation on Nugent's blog ... time? locale? ... I don't know.

Anyway, LeftSidePositive (http://freethoughtblogs.com/almostdiamo ... ent-222421), who is without doubt one of the most virulent, angry, and offensive of the FfTB sociopathic ideologues, has, of course, iviscerated me, to the core, while ignoring almost all of my actual points.

Typical, I guess.

I have had, er, ah, arguments and confrontations with LeftSideDeficient before, and it ... no sorry, sh/i/t is not an individual who is overly gifted with reading comprehension.

Last note, I think that Jack's statement is really poorly written, and I truly wish he/she had asked someone with professional writing experience to proof it. His statement is overflowing with sentence structure errors, grammatical errors, logic errors, and so on. And such flaws really weaken the argument. Pah. Very, very disappointing.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#13458

Post by rayshul »

Mildly pornographic article, off topic but... amusing. Because everything is sexist or about sex.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/travel-tr ... rnographic

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#13459

Post by Steersman »

ConcentratedH2O, OM wrote:If you want to know the difference between FfTB and the 'Pit, read the thread below. Trigger Warning for tediousness, self-congratulatory wanking, and lack of imagination. Bonus point if you can be bothered to work out what percentage of posts are by Caine.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... -in-there/
PZ Myers
31 March 2013 at 2:15 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment [#8]
“Clear! No ragheads hiding in this cave! But bring in the flamethrower to be sure.”
:shock: :? :lol:

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#13460

Post by Steersman »

rayshul wrote:Mildly pornographic article, off topic but... amusing. Because everything is sexist or about sex.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/travel-tr ... rnographic
“Mildly pornographic”? Maybe, if you really, really squint. Amazing the things that people get their knickers in a twist over.

Reminds me of the joke about the psychologist who showed a guy a bunch of rorschach blots, and for each one he said it looked like some couple having sex in some pose or location. And at the end the psychologist said, “Well, you certainly seem like you’re obsessed with sex”. To which the patient said, “What do you mean? You’re the one showing me all of the pornographic pictures!” :rimshot: :-)

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#13461

Post by Steersman »

John Greg wrote:As I previously posted, I have entered a comment on Zvan's blog, and one (yet to pass moderation) on Nugent's blog, responding to the initial statments from both Jack and Zvan. However, I have not yet passed moderation on Nugent's blog ... time? locale? ... I don't know.

Anyway, LeftSidePositive (http://freethoughtblogs.com/almostdiamo ... ent-222421), who is without doubt one of the most virulent, angry, and offensive of the FfTB sociopathic ideologues, has, of course, [eviscerated] me, to the core, while ignoring almost all of my actual points.

Typical, I guess.

I have had, er, ah, arguments and confrontations with LeftSideDeficient before, and it ... no sorry, sh/i/t is not an individual who is overly gifted with reading comprehension.
I left one there myself; still (forever) in moderation, of course:
Steersman wrote:LeftSidePositive said (#10):
We owe it to those who are hurting, suffering, and dying in this big wide world of ours.
**Unless we’re the ones who are hurting them, in which case they must have deserved it by being so outspoken.
Nice strawman there, LSP. But then again you had a lot of practice throughout the rest of your comment ….
I expect PZ’s supply of straw is seriously diminished after that exercise if he’s supplying that to his minions.

But I kind of think she is losing it – letting her spleen get the better of her brain. Had a run-in with her – I think I had called her a prick before she identified as a woman – some time back on Zvan’s blog where she actually seemed more rational and level-headed (marginally at least), and she seemed like she had some reasonable credentials. But some serious blind spots, I think, when it comes to the question of “gender as a social construct”. And her understanding of statistical populations, even in comparison to mine which is pretty limited, seems a little inconsistent with her claims.
Last note, I think that Jack's statement is really poorly written, and I truly wish he/she had asked someone with professional writing experience to proof it. His statement is overflowing with sentence structure errors, grammatical errors, logic errors, and so on. And such flaws really weaken the argument. Pah. Very, very disappointing.
You do any volunteering on that front? I thought it was pretty reasonable – maybe a few rough spots, but I got the gist of it.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#13462

Post by Steersman »

Skep tickle wrote:FWIW, my post at Lousy Canuck is still in moderation; mentioned here >24 hrs ago: viewtopic.php?p=80575#p80575

(I was replying to his OP, which quotes Steersman quoting me from here, and PZ's response #1 making assumptions about what I said & meant, apparently w/o going to read the cited post).
I think it was Strawkins who he was quoting, unless there's something I missed in skimming through the article ...

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#13463

Post by Hunt »

Steersman wrote:
ConcentratedH2O, OM wrote:If you want to know the difference between FfTB and the 'Pit, read the thread below. Trigger Warning for tediousness, self-congratulatory wanking, and lack of imagination. Bonus point if you can be bothered to work out what percentage of posts are by Caine.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... -in-there/
PZ Myers
31 March 2013 at 2:15 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment [#8]
“Clear! No ragheads hiding in this cave! But bring in the flamethrower to be sure.”
:shock: :? :lol:
That one kind of stopped me in my tracks too. Maybe he's drunk.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#13464

Post by JackSkeptic »

Submariner wrote:@ Jack:
I didn't see the cast for the FfTB "side" of the discussion posted anywhere, but a commenter from there mentioned "all named people" on their side.

Have they released the participants nyms/names yet?
Not to my knowledge. It would be interesting to know but if people wish to stay discreet I'm OK with that.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#13465

Post by JackSkeptic »

John Greg wrote:For whatever it is worth, I posted this at Zvan's blog (http://freethoughtblogs.com/almostdiamo ... re-issues/):
While it remains a wholly valid exercise to vigorously disagree with the statements posted at Nugent's blog / website, it might behoove some of you to actually read what has been posted, and ponder those posts for a bit (rather than just kneejerking like an out of control Atlas rocket), both from Zvan, and from Jack, and instead of just pouncing with the blood-dripping jaws of angry self-righteousness, presumptive assumption, and the emotive howl of ATTACK, try and think through some of the concepts, ideas, and principles presented by both participants, and actually work through pondering and analyzing what may or may not be right and/or wrong, and/or viable or worthy of work.

None of us is wholly right or wrong, ever. The Pitters (so-called) and the FfTBers (so-called) have both expressed some valid, and some not valid, ideas. And both should be approached with the open minded perspective that is supposed to be a part of both the scientific and the ethically skeptical approach.

For the record, most of the comments in this thread misrepresent both Zvan, and Jack.

Also for the record, I agreed with almost all of Zvan's initial statement (at Nugent's blog). And where I did not agree, the issues were somewhat minor. Frankly, I am both surprised, and appreciative of her statement, and I think she has some very valid and important points, some of which present more valid and/or important ideas/principles than Jack's statement.

I know that Zvan and I have been what could justly be called enemies for well over a year now. Nonetheless, I would like to restate that most of what she posted on that initial comment at Nugents' blog is, to my mind, valid, important and, most importantly, workable and acheivable. While she and I could never be friends, perhaps on these points we could agree to agree ... and discuss.
Whether or not it will make it through moderation/bannage is anybody's guess.
It's got through. No substantive response, yet.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#13466

Post by Steersman »

Hunt wrote:
Steersman wrote:
ConcentratedH2O, OM wrote:If you want to know the difference between FfTB and the 'Pit, read the thread below. Trigger Warning for tediousness, self-congratulatory wanking, and lack of imagination. Bonus point if you can be bothered to work out what percentage of posts are by Caine.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... -in-there/
PZ Myers
31 March 2013 at 2:15 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment [#8]
“Clear! No ragheads hiding in this cave! But bring in the flamethrower to be sure.”
:shock: :? :lol:
That one kind of stopped me in my tracks too. Maybe he's drunk.
Quite possibly.

But kind of a racist joke. He’s not leaving himself much of a leg to stand on if someone tells a rape joke, or uses some gendered insult.

And his complaints about him being photoshopped into some gay-porn – supposedly, although apparently no evidence of that here – along with Ophelia’s crocodile tears about appearing in some Skepsheik cartoons are likewise discredited ….

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#13467

Post by Michael K Gray »

Jack wrote:
Submariner wrote:@ Jack:
I didn't see the cast for the FfTB "side" of the discussion posted anywhere, but a commenter from there mentioned "all named people" on their side.
Have they released the participants nyms/names yet?
Not to my knowledge. It would be interesting to know but if people wish to stay discreet I'm OK with that.
Am I alone in considering all of this dreadfully strained & obviously faux 'pussy-footing-around' with polite etiquette & excruciatingly restricted & embarrassingly laboured ceremonial language somewhat hard to stomach?
The Slimepit was (in part) evolved to avoid such indirect speech against circumlocuitous "Jane Austen" style bullshit.
"Oh, Mr. Darcy! How uncharitable, kind sir."
versus
"You are deliberately lying, you deceptive cunt."
I go for the latter, every time.
(But perhaps that is merely a reflection of my extreme age, experience, and lack of tolerance for hypocrisy?)

Perhaps 'tis for the best that I did not volunteer for Nugent's Fools Errand.
It is not my style at all.
"Have at it" is my motto.

Being polite did not work with cultish theists, (after a 4,500+ year trial), and I doubt that it will work with the FTB cultists whose behaviour I oppose.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#13468

Post by JackSkeptic »

Michael K Gray wrote:
Jack wrote:
Submariner wrote:@ Jack:
I didn't see the cast for the FfTB "side" of the discussion posted anywhere, but a commenter from there mentioned "all named people" on their side.
Have they released the participants nyms/names yet?
Not to my knowledge. It would be interesting to know but if people wish to stay discreet I'm OK with that.
Am I alone in considering all of this dreadfully strained & obviously faux 'pussy-footing-around' with polite etiquette & excruciatingly restricted & embarrassingly laboured ceremonial language somewhat hard to stomach?
The Slimepit was (in part) evolved to avoid such indirect speech against circumlocuitous "Jane Austen" style bullshit.
"Oh, Mr. Darcy! How uncharitable, kind sir."
versus
"You are deliberately lying, you deceptive cunt."
I go for the latter, every time.
(But perhaps that is merely a reflection of my extreme age, experience, and lack of tolerance for hypocrisy?)

Perhaps 'tis for the best that I did not volunteer for Nugent's Fools Errand.
It is not my style at all.
"Have at it" is my motto.

Being polite did not work with cultish theists, (after a 4,500+ year trial), and I doubt that it will work with the FTB cultists whose behaviour I oppose.
Hey I'm British so I can be deeply insulting without someone even realising it :)

It's 'Team' as in Zvan and a mod for their side. No others have been announced. I originally assume 5 from there but if I were to guess that hasn't happened. That does not mean people are not assisting her or helping in some way. That is the same for us. I see no issue with that and it's a good sign if that is happening. It is silly for people to say we want as many as possible then demand arbitrary limits on that. It's being bloody minded for the sake of it. I don't care if they have an army of thousands helping out. Arguments win or fail on their merits.

Zvan makes some good points and I see that as a good thing. I agree with most of her statement and it is in line with ours (although you wouldn't think that from some comments over there) She's grasped this is about common ground and resisted the urge we all have to go on the attack from the start. She gets my respect for that.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#13469

Post by Parody Accountant »

PZ Myers
31 March 2013 at 2:15 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment [#8]
“Clear! No ragheads hiding in this cave! But bring in the flamethrower to be sure.”
Kind of racist? That's definitely an ethnic slur. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_slurs#R/

I thought they demanded a zero-tolerance SJW rule against ironic usage and/or jokes.

PZ's racist epithet aside, the joke doesn't make sense to me. If all-knowing / all-seeing Jesus also took the time to manually 'clear' the cave, what possible doubt could there be?

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#13470

Post by Tony Parsehole »

justinvacula wrote:http://i.imgur.com/tPEa4N5.jpg

More non-offensive pics in accord with conduct policy.... with Greta Christina

http://eventifier.co/event/aacon13/?page=3
Greta Christina is such a rebel. Holding a sign saying 'FUCK THE POPE' whilst attending an atheist convention is so edgy and daring it makes me glad that people like this are willing to push the boundaries to such extremes....

Sarcasm aside it would have been cooler and more original to have the sign say ' GIVE THE POPE A CHANCE'.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#13471

Post by Tony Parsehole »

Parody Accountant wrote:
PZ Myers
31 March 2013 at 2:15 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment [#8]
“Clear! No ragheads hiding in this cave! But bring in the flamethrower to be sure.”
Kind of racist? That's definitely an ethnic slur. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_slurs#R/

I thought they demanded a zero-tolerance SJW rule against ironic usage and/or jokes.

PZ's racist epithet aside, the joke doesn't make sense to me. If all-knowing / all-seeing Jesus also took the time to manually 'clear' the cave, what possible doubt could there be?
Notice how he put the slur in quotation marks so he has a get-out-of-jail-free excuse if he's called on it?

'Oh I would never say 'raghead'! I was obviously writing in the style of a Slymepitter! BANNED!'

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#13472

Post by Tony Parsehole »

ConcentratedH2O, OM wrote:
ConcentratedH2O, OM wrote:If you want to know the difference between FfTB and the 'Pit, read the thread below. Trigger Warning for tediousness, self-congratulatory wanking, and lack of imagination. Bonus point if you can be bothered to work out what percentage of posts are by Caine.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... -in-there/
Answer: they really, genuinely, actually, literally have no sense of humor.
This! So much this!

*weeps*

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#13473

Post by JackSkeptic »

Steersman wrote:
John Greg wrote:As I previously posted, I have entered a comment on Zvan's blog, and one (yet to pass moderation) on Nugent's blog, responding to the initial statments from both Jack and Zvan. However, I have not yet passed moderation on Nugent's blog ... time? locale? ... I don't know.

Anyway, LeftSidePositive (http://freethoughtblogs.com/almostdiamo ... ent-222421), who is without doubt one of the most virulent, angry, and offensive of the FfTB sociopathic ideologues, has, of course, [eviscerated] me, to the core, while ignoring almost all of my actual points.

Typical, I guess.

I have had, er, ah, arguments and confrontations with LeftSideDeficient before, and it ... no sorry, sh/i/t is not an individual who is overly gifted with reading comprehension.
I left one there myself; still (forever) in moderation, of course:
Steersman wrote:LeftSidePositive said (#10):
We owe it to those who are hurting, suffering, and dying in this big wide world of ours.
**Unless we’re the ones who are hurting them, in which case they must have deserved it by being so outspoken.
Nice strawman there, LSP. But then again you had a lot of practice throughout the rest of your comment ….
I expect PZ’s supply of straw is seriously diminished after that exercise if he’s supplying that to his minions.

But I kind of think she is losing it – letting her spleen get the better of her brain. Had a run-in with her – I think I had called her a prick before she identified as a woman – some time back on Zvan’s blog where she actually seemed more rational and level-headed (marginally at least), and she seemed like she had some reasonable credentials. But some serious blind spots, I think, when it comes to the question of “gender as a social construct”. And her understanding of statistical populations, even in comparison to mine which is pretty limited, seems a little inconsistent with her claims.
Last note, I think that Jack's statement is really poorly written, and I truly wish he/she had asked someone with professional writing experience to proof it. His statement is overflowing with sentence structure errors, grammatical errors, logic errors, and so on. And such flaws really weaken the argument. Pah. Very, very disappointing.
You do any volunteering on that front? I thought it was pretty reasonable – maybe a few rough spots, but I got the gist of it.
John has a good point. We were bending over backwards to avoid words such as 'Ideologues' or 'Feminists' and it made the whole thing flow badly. We also wanted to avoid the conversational style Svan used as that would open it up to too much interpretation. The intent was to list the points in a way that provided a reference against any attacks and to provide a groundwork for future comments. I have seen no core comments from that side that was not dealt with in our statement. It attempts to deal with all the main objections I have seen them raise.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#13474

Post by bovarchist »

Very funny, Peter, now come get this Krazy Glue off my hand!

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... 00x707.jpg
(sorry, only putting this here because I'm FTbagged.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#13475

Post by Tony Parsehole »


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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#13476

Post by HoneyWagon »

justinvacula wrote:http://i.imgur.com/tPEa4N5.jpg

More non-offensive pics in accord with conduct policy.... with Greta Christina
I am not reading anything into them dressing up more than that they wanted to have a little fun with a costume contest. No biggie.
But, I have to say, one should know the costume idea is not working if one of the members (in the middle) has to wear a name tag telling people what they are supposed to be. FAIL.

If you do a google image search, you WILL find Pussy Riot members dressed similarly to the photo for the AA convention. But most people I think have seen the topless images more, with Pussy Riot written on bare skin, not on a name tag.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#13477

Post by cunt »

Am I alone in considering all of this dreadfully strained & obviously faux 'pussy-footing-around' with polite etiquette & excruciatingly restricted & embarrassingly laboured ceremonial language somewhat hard to stomach?
Nope.

Tony Parsehole
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#13478

Post by Tony Parsehole »


Tony Parsehole
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#13479

Post by Tony Parsehole »

FUCK delayed double post. Soz.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#13480

Post by Michael K Gray »

Jack wrote:...Arguments win or fail on their merits.
Perhaps I am not being blunt enough here.
Nugent's garden party, serving accommodationist scones, after a wait of several months, and the sweet tea of "common goals", can be dispensed with in seconds: It is transparently clear as to what are our common agreements.
This has been hashed and re-hashed for years.

What is at issue, and this is VITAL: is where 'we' disagree! (And why)

For fux-sake, re-iterating these already common principles gets no-one anywhere save, perhaps, for a warm wave of smugness in the mind of Nugent.
Who gives a tinker's cuss about rabbiting on and on in genteel language about the common ground?
WTF is the point?
What's to resolve?

A: "Oh yes. I wholeheartedly agree, Mr. Darcy! The gardeners are looking Splendid indeed!"
C: "Knowles is 97 you know. Extraordinary gardener."
A: "Oh, Lady Chiddingfold, I committed an unpardonable error. I spake "gardeners" when, (in matter of fact), I meant to say "gardens". With what penance might I rescind this sin, if your Ladyship so deigns to respond?"

Pointless prissy bullshit.
Even steersman might be cringing at the strained fake comity.

Get on with where the 2 "sides" disagree:
1) Hypocrisy
2) Hypocrisy
3) Hypocrisy

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#13481

Post by Michael K Gray »

Jack wrote:...We were bending over backwards to avoid words...
Says it all, really.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#13482

Post by Hunt »

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... ent-594289
2 & 3: What a dumbass. SF cons have more stringent anti-harassment policies, and they’re usually very prominently displayed at multiple locations in the hotel. We’ve suggested a small fraction of the rules that other meetings take for granted.
Maybe someone can say whether this is true or not, since the only knowledge I have of cons of any kind are from watching William Shatner's "Get a Life" documentary, that shows that the Trek conventions have cosplay with scanty costumes, cleavage, people throwing themselves on each other, etc. I kept thinking, holy shit, this could never happen at an atheist con.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#13483

Post by TheMan »

Michael K Gray wrote:
Jack wrote:...We were bending over backwards to avoid words...
Says it all, really.
and for what?

Shut down the pit and FTB? hah!

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#13484

Post by EdwardGemmer »

rayshul wrote:
It's a fairly large group but I've never seen any reference to the "great divide" in atheism on there. It's surprising to me that it hasn't spread to (presumably) one of the minority groups they are trying to target.
That would require talking to a black person. From the way they talk about black people I think they expect to only find them working cotton fields in Mississippi.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#13485

Post by Hunt »

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... ent-594069
Richard “zero bad” Dawkins, David “Mohammed was a pedophile” Silverman, Michael “more of a guy thing” Schermer and Sam “no end to the stupid shit” Harris certainly come to mind when I think of names that would ensure that I found something different to do that weekend even if the convention were free and right across the street.
http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... ent-594334
A lot of illusionists are skeptics. Maybe magic shows?
Yes, maybe you could hire Penn & Teller?...er...no, no.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#13486

Post by Dick Strawkins »

Steersman wrote:
Skep tickle wrote:FWIW, my post at Lousy Canuck is still in moderation; mentioned here >24 hrs ago: viewtopic.php?p=80575#p80575

(I was replying to his OP, which quotes Steersman quoting me from here, and PZ's response #1 making assumptions about what I said & meant, apparently w/o going to read the cited post).
I think it was Strawkins who he was quoting, unless there's something I missed in skimming through the article ...
I didn't accuse Lousy of anything. I just reposted a screencap that someone else had earlier posted on this thread. Lousy's words were directly relevant to Skep tickle's post about something Peezus had said in his Seattle talk.
I simply wondered how you reconcile the problem of false accusations with a policy of an unskeptical approach towards such claims.
This is a classic problem in radical feminist history. Those who have read more about feminism than five minutes on wikipedia (which therefore excludes most of the FTB and Skepchick crowd) will have heard of the notorious case of Andrea Dworkin and the Parisian hotel rape.
http://m.guardian.co.uk/books/2000/jun/02/society
This incident caused a significant split in the ranks with many, including her own husband, John, being skeptical of the claim, while others insisting she must be believed.
It is really not a simple question that doesn't suggest an easy or trite solution.
That said, my question was answered in a simple manner by both PZ and Svan. Apparently it is an easy dilemma to solve - if it's one of their own who is accused you just dismiss the accusation out of hand without a moments thought!
Having said that, even Terribles doesn't deserve false accusations of rape. Perhaps Lsuoma can check the logs to see if the IP address that Terribles published matches a visitor to this site between the time I posted the screencap and the time Terribles published his post.
If no such visitor viewed my post then we should start to look for an alternative explanation.
By the way, I have to say I am surprised that Peezus seems to have no problem with making clearly false rape accusations about other people - I'm recalling him, Laden and Watson doing so to Ed Clint on that Skepchicks post about the Penny/Leonard scene in 'The Big Bang Theory'.
You might have thought that he, of all people, as someone who has experienced a false rape accusation, should treat the subject seriously.

JackSkeptic
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#13487

Post by JackSkeptic »

TheMan wrote:
Michael K Gray wrote:
Jack wrote:...We were bending over backwards to avoid words...
Says it all, really.
and for what?

Shut down the pit and FTB? hah!
The responses are where the gloves come off. But you don't get people into any discussion if you start by slagging them off. Thankfully we didn't do that. Zvan didn't do that either as she also had the wider community in mind.

You start with principles and work up from there. To do otherwise would give the impression our side is just a bitter bunch of people with a grudge. This is not just about FtB it is also about anyone who has a casual interest in this.

Once we hit the real areas of contention there is a framework which supports our position which is seen as reasonable and rational. Boring for sure but I think required in order to get anywhere and make some strong points. That is where the responses come in.

Scented Nectar
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#13488

Post by Scented Nectar »

Aneris wrote:
Apples wrote:Mr. Schach's integrity and observational powers are a hallmark of his posting history at Pharyngula:

http://i.imgur.com/UbkVBYu.jpg
He's right. Team A consists of 100% Named Persons. Team B only of 50%*. Check Mate, Team B!

Let's move the stuff over to Jacks dedicated thread.
viewtopic.php?f=29&p=80728#p80728

*That Team B has twice as much Named Person shall not count.
Steffy admitted once that 'Stephanie Zvan' is not her real name. All the talk against anonymous people should include her too. :lol:

Extra funny is how she freaks out over anyone mis-spelling her pseudonym!

Guest

Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#13489

Post by Guest »

Steersman wrote:
Hunt wrote:
Steersman wrote:
ConcentratedH2O, OM wrote:If you want to know the difference between FfTB and the 'Pit, read the thread below. Trigger Warning for tediousness, self-congratulatory wanking, and lack of imagination. Bonus point if you can be bothered to work out what percentage of posts are by Caine.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... -in-there/
PZ Myers
31 March 2013 at 2:15 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment [#8]
“Clear! No ragheads hiding in this cave! But bring in the flamethrower to be sure.”
:shock: :? :lol:
That one kind of stopped me in my tracks too. Maybe he's drunk.
Quite possibly.

But kind of a racist joke. He’s not leaving himself much of a leg to stand on if someone tells a rape joke, or uses some gendered insult.

And his complaints about him being photoshopped into some gay-porn – supposedly, although apparently no evidence of that here – along with Ophelia’s crocodile tears about appearing in some Skepsheik cartoons are likewise discredited ….
he was shopped onto a dildo

in his laughable understanding of human sexuality maybe that's probably the same thing as gay porn?

Guest

Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#13490

Post by Guest »

Hunt wrote:http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... ent-594289
2 & 3: What a dumbass. SF cons have more stringent anti-harassment policies, and they’re usually very prominently displayed at multiple locations in the hotel. We’ve suggested a small fraction of the rules that other meetings take for granted.
Maybe someone can say whether this is true or not, since the only knowledge I have of cons of any kind are from watching William Shatner's "Get a Life" documentary, that shows that the Trek conventions have cosplay with scanty costumes, cleavage, people throwing themselves on each other, etc. I kept thinking, holy shit, this could never happen at an atheist con.
seems to be made up out of whole cloth

certainly deserves to be "CITATION OR FLOOSH"ed by their own qualifications

"most" prominent cons seem to have nothing particularly official or posted but ride on city and venue ordinances, or do whatever they decid on the spot, should something be reported

BarnOwl
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#13491

Post by BarnOwl »

Jack wrote: Hey I'm British so I can be deeply insulting without someone even realising it :)

It's 'Team' as in Zvan and a mod for their side. No others have been announced. I originally assume 5 from there but if I were to guess that hasn't happened. That does not mean people are not assisting her or helping in some way. That is the same for us. I see no issue with that and it's a good sign if that is happening. It is silly for people to say we want as many as possible then demand arbitrary limits on that. It's being bloody minded for the sake of it. I don't care if they have an army of thousands helping out. Arguments win or fail on their merits.

Zvan makes some good points and I see that as a good thing. I agree with most of her statement and it is in line with ours (although you wouldn't think that from some comments over there) She's grasped this is about common ground and resisted the urge we all have to go on the attack from the start. She gets my respect for that.
I'm only seeing a couple of comments on either Strand over at the dedicated site for this discussion. Am I doing something RONG?

Also, arguments should win or fail on their merits, but we've seen arbitrary dismissal of arguments by FtBers many times. FLOOSH!

Guest

Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#13492

Post by Guest »

Scented Nectar wrote:
Aneris wrote:
Apples wrote:Mr. Schach's integrity and observational powers are a hallmark of his posting history at Pharyngula:

http://i.imgur.com/UbkVBYu.jpg
He's right. Team A consists of 100% Named Persons. Team B only of 50%*. Check Mate, Team B!

Let's move the stuff over to Jacks dedicated thread.
viewtopic.php?f=29&p=80728#p80728

*That Team B has twice as much Named Person shall not count.
Steffy admitted once that 'Stephanie Zvan' is not her real name. All the talk against anonymous people should include her too. :lol:

Extra funny is how she freaks out over anyone mis-spelling her pseudonym!
WOT

Submariner
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#13493

Post by Submariner »

Jack wrote:
John has a good point. We were bending over backwards to avoid words such as 'Ideologues' or 'Feminists' and it made the whole thing flow badly. We also wanted to avoid the conversational style Svan used as that would open it up to too much interpretation. The intent was to list the points in a way that provided a reference against any attacks and to provide a groundwork for future comments. I have seen no core comments from that side that was not dealt with in our statement. It attempts to deal with all the main objections I have seen them raise.

I'm less concerned with the quality of the prose from either side, than I am with the quality of the ideas conveyed. Zvan's post was more fluid and professional but in many sections the ideas she was trying to convey were vague, or seemingly incoherent.

Jack's post, while less artistic, was clear and concise.

BarnOwl
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#13494

Post by BarnOwl »

Also, the chartjunk on Zvan's post reminds me of the clipart that is used in Powerpoints by administrative touchy-feely types in academia. Might be common practice in the business world, but makes acolytes of Edward Tufte (like myself) cringe.

JackSkeptic
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#13495

Post by JackSkeptic »

BarnOwl wrote:
Jack wrote: Hey I'm British so I can be deeply insulting without someone even realising it :)

It's 'Team' as in Zvan and a mod for their side. No others have been announced. I originally assume 5 from there but if I were to guess that hasn't happened. That does not mean people are not assisting her or helping in some way. That is the same for us. I see no issue with that and it's a good sign if that is happening. It is silly for people to say we want as many as possible then demand arbitrary limits on that. It's being bloody minded for the sake of it. I don't care if they have an army of thousands helping out. Arguments win or fail on their merits.

Zvan makes some good points and I see that as a good thing. I agree with most of her statement and it is in line with ours (although you wouldn't think that from some comments over there) She's grasped this is about common ground and resisted the urge we all have to go on the attack from the start. She gets my respect for that.
I'm only seeing a couple of comments on either Strand over at the dedicated site for this discussion. Am I doing something RONG?

Also, arguments should win or fail on their merits, but we've seen arbitrary dismissal of arguments by FtBers many times. FLOOSH!
Apparently some stuck in moderation. It's been brought up. Nugent replies here about it. (293) http://www.michaelnugent.com/2013/03/26 ... -dialogue/

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#13496

Post by Jan Steen »


EdwardGemmer
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#13497

Post by EdwardGemmer »

Top Notch

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#13498

Post by Corylus »

Michael K Gray wrote:
Jack wrote:...Arguments win or fail on their merits.
For fux-sake, re-iterating these already common principles gets no-one anywhere save, perhaps, for a warm wave of smugness in the mind of Nugent.
Who gives a tinker's cuss about rabbiting on and on in genteel language about the common ground?
WTF is the point?
What's to resolve?
Most mediators seem to act in stages, Michael. The number of stages do vary, but here is a good document that shows them clearly.

Looks like Michael Nugent in on Stage 2:

2.Sharing Perspectives (goals of the mediator)
  • To unveil and understand each disputant’s perspective regarding how each views the facts, situations and issues (each gets an uninterrupted flow of thoughts)
  • For each party to hear and obtain an appreciation of the other disputant’s perspectives (use active listening and ask open ended questions)
  • To identify the obstacles to a possible settlement (but avoid trying to find a solution)
  • To allow the disputants to vent in a positive and constructive way (be open and receptive to what is being said.

What is at issue, and this is VITAL: is where 'we' disagree! (And why)
I don't think that Michael N would disagree, but there are several possibilities (and combinations of possibilities) here.
  1. Michael is sticking to the mediator's rulebook
  2. Michael is using this process of exposition as a way in which to encourage parties to see each other as simply people with views rather than natural enemies
  3. Michael is inordinately fond of foreplay
  4. Michael is avoiding the assumption that areas of stated agreement actually ARE areas of agreement.

OK. Let me expand on 'd' a little more. It is very easy to draw out the immediate and obvious areas of discord, less easy to work out the bases of them. Look at the two statements made. There are differences in the underlying assumptions being made. For example, most of the eyerolling here has been in response to Zvan's “male, cis-gendered etc.” silliness. Now, what is the basis for this statement? Well, it appears from the rest of the document, that she sees the mechanisms of power as in continual conflict; she sees the individual concerns of others as mutually exclusive, and she is – furthermore – willing to act in a 'mercenary' fashion (i.e. working with religious organisations) when the her goals, fleetingly, coincide with theirs.

I suspect she is unaware of how this assumption is:
  1. actually quite a cynical and
  2. not necessarily supported by evidence.

Sigh, this is what happens when a natural campaigner either, reads Foucault uncritically, or is just naturally inclined to self-absorption.*

Conversely, Jack's statement is deeply practical and based on the assumption that what works is generally helpful for all parties. There is a view that egalitarian systems are actually good for all, and that common goals can be uncovered via evidence based investigation, as opposed to the short-term balancing of individual concerns. There is also a laudable willingness to put some work in displayed throughout. There may be an underestimation of the, generally irrational, nature of the populace in there however.

So here we have (roughly) an INTJ talking to (roughly) an ENFP

Them letters are nearly all different: agreement cannot be assumed.

Michael N, if you are reading, you may send me a consulting fee in the post.

-=-=-=-=-=-
*In Halfisch I see the combined effects of both. (Shudder)

Guest

Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#13499

Post by Guest »

Tony Parsehole wrote:
justinvacula wrote:http://i.imgur.com/tPEa4N5.jpg

More non-offensive pics in accord with conduct policy.... with Greta Christina

http://eventifier.co/event/aacon13/?page=3
Greta Christina is such a rebel. Holding a sign saying 'FUCK THE POPE' whilst attending an atheist convention is so edgy and daring it makes me glad that people like this are willing to push the boundaries to such extremes....

Sarcasm aside it would have been cooler and more original to have the sign say ' GIVE THE POPE A CHANCE'.
So, let me get this straight. They're wearing balaclavas. And carrying a sign saying FUCK THE POPE.

After we're done with this debate thing, can we get Michael Nugent to explain a couple of basic points to these people? Or else just hold an atheist convention in West Belfast, and invite these morons, and let nature take its course.

Apples
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#13500

Post by Apples »

BarnOwl wrote:Also, the chartjunk on Zvan's post reminds me of the clipart that is used in Powerpoints by administrative touchy-feely types in academia. Might be common practice in the business world, but makes acolytes of Edward Tufte (like myself) cringe.
That was my very first thought - boring, pseudo-professional, and nauseatingly generic, like her statement itself.

Apples
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#13501

Post by Apples »

cunt wrote:
Am I alone in considering all of this dreadfully strained & obviously faux 'pussy-footing-around' with polite etiquette & excruciatingly restricted & embarrassingly laboured ceremonial language somewhat hard to stomach?
Nope.
Yeah, this whole thing is turning out to be as exciting as a slap-fight between snails with chronic fatigue syndrome.

welch
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#13502

Post by welch »

Scented Nectar wrote:
Aneris wrote:
Apples wrote:Mr. Schach's integrity and observational powers are a hallmark of his posting history at Pharyngula:

http://i.imgur.com/UbkVBYu.jpg
He's right. Team A consists of 100% Named Persons. Team B only of 50%*. Check Mate, Team B!

Let's move the stuff over to Jacks dedicated thread.
viewtopic.php?f=29&p=80728#p80728

*That Team B has twice as much Named Person shall not count.
Steffy admitted once that 'Stephanie Zvan' is not her real name. All the talk against anonymous people should include her too. :lol:

Extra funny is how she freaks out over anyone mis-spelling her pseudonym!
Wait, really? Where?

Dilurk
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#13503

Post by Dilurk »

EllenBeth Wachs has a post up which is well worth reading http://mycatsaremygods.com/2013/03/31/y ... -derision/

remusm8
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#13504

Post by remusm8 »


Tigzy
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#13505

Post by Tigzy »

Tony Parsehole wrote:
ConcentratedH2O, OM wrote:
ConcentratedH2O, OM wrote:If you want to know the difference between FfTB and the 'Pit, read the thread below. Trigger Warning for tediousness, self-congratulatory wanking, and lack of imagination. Bonus point if you can be bothered to work out what percentage of posts are by Caine.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... -in-there/
Answer: they really, genuinely, actually, literally have no sense of humor.
This! So much this!

*weeps*
To be honest, when I saw that picture of a white bearded male idealogue stepping out from a cave, I thought PZ was about to announce yet another co-blogger.

Hunt
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#13506

Post by Hunt »

Apples wrote:
cunt wrote:
Am I alone in considering all of this dreadfully strained & obviously faux 'pussy-footing-around' with polite etiquette & excruciatingly restricted & embarrassingly laboured ceremonial language somewhat hard to stomach?
Nope.
Yeah, this whole thing is turning out to be as exciting as a slap-fight between snails with chronic fatigue syndrome.
I tried reading Svan's statement a second time thinking I must have missed the exciting, relevant content and almost went to sleep. What a snoozefest. "This is your discussion on Valium."

Hunt
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#13507

Post by Hunt »

Sorry, Zvalium.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#13508

Post by debaser71 »

justinvacula wrote:PZ talks about a panel he attended:

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2013 ... -few-days/
"Bullies Still Suck: Why We Don’t Just Get Over It. Oh, jeez. The most depressing panel ever. I was on it with Mickey Schulz (Geek Girls Rule!) and Maida “Mac” Cain. I think I was there to represent targets of online bullying, but here’s the deal: it was attended by a large number of SF con nerds and geeks who could give us all lessons on what real bullying is like. I didn’t have to say much at all: the audience spoke out with testimonials about their lives as four-eyed nerds, gay people, trans women, Asperger kids, “sluts” so-called, and rape victims. I think my main job here should have just been to shut up and listen."
He was there to represent targets of online bullying? Huh?
PZ can't bring himself to say that white cis hegemonic privileged males get bullied?

"four-eyed nerds" "Asperger kids"

Fuck you to the ground PZ Myers.

Karmakin
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#13509

Post by Karmakin »

PZ is one of those bullies.

Wonderist
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#13510

Post by Wonderist »

Kudos to John Greg, for his comment getting through on Zvan's blog, and proving that in principle dissent would not be censored there. I've added a couple of my own, detailed here: viewtopic.php?f=29&t=286&p=80977#p80847

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#13511

Post by Wonderist »

(in an elevator)
(the *asking* part!!)
(... or the sex part, why not? ;) )

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#13512

Post by AnonymousCowherd »

justinvacula wrote:http://i.imgur.com/tPEa4N5.jpg

More non-offensive pics in accord with conduct policy.... with Greta Christina

http://eventifier.co/event/aacon13/?page=3

I like they way the one in the middle has just had a really, really good idea.

Wonderist
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#13513

Post by Wonderist »

John Greg wrote:As I previously posted, I have entered a comment on Zvan's blog, and one (yet to pass moderation) on Nugent's blog, responding to the initial statments from both Jack and Zvan. However, I have not yet passed moderation on Nugent's blog ... time? locale? ... I don't know.
Due to the 'two sides' nature of moderation there, moderation will be slower than sites where moderation is unilateral. Also, they are co-developing moderation procedures and guidelines as they go, working out the kinks and bugs which collaborative moderation introduces by its very nature. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. Also, time zones.

Apples
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#13514

Post by Apples »


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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#13515

Post by AnonymousCowherd »

BarnOwl wrote:Also, the chartjunk on Zvan's post reminds me of the clipart that is used in Powerpoints by administrative touchy-feely types in academia. Might be common practice in the business world, but makes acolytes of Edward Tufte (like myself) cringe.
Without knowing a thing about Tufte, they make me cringe too. Anything that even vaguely suggests Powerp... see, I nearly fell asleep typing it. Mind you, as a way of making it appear like a vapid presentation had any structure, or points made, Powerp... did it again, is the go to app and Svan's pabulum really could have done with that treatment. It all so "life's rich tapestry, many ways to salvation, finding best practice yadda yadda..."

It's so content free, I'd almost be moved to disagree with it just on principle. Yes, yes, "unhelpful" I know.

Locked