Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

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FrankGrimes
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12481

Post by FrankGrimes »

Jan Steen wrote:I'm afraid that I largely agree with welch in his pessimism. You are not debating reasonable people, you are debating members of a cult. We have witnessed their behaviour, their blatant dishonesty, so many times that they have become quite predictable. Perhaps not as predictable as Nerd of Redhead, but that is setting a very low bar indeed.

The recent Adria Richards story is an instructive case. When PZ Myers declares that "Adria Richards did everything exactly right" then this is treated as dogma by his sycophants (alright, that's why they are sycophants in the first place). Any dissent is labelled as misogyny, rape-enabling, etc., etc. Even relatively well-known allies (EBW, Julian) are burnt at the stake if they dare to question the correct PZ thought.

And these people must be convinced with reason and logic that they could be wrong? Well, could luck with that. You'll need it.

I'm new to all this but my 2c is that I agree with the above. From what I've seen they don't seem to know how to construct a logical argument. Nor do they seem to know how to deal with one when it is presented. Their skills are severely lacking in both areas so they're going to have to cram or fail. Their standard out when presented with evidence and clear, logical thinking is to gang up on people (dog-pile if you like), and/or suck the authorities into reaching into the toolkit for the hammer but they won't have either luxury in this case.

It's been said that this is exactly what will be their undoing and that this can only be a good thing. I'm not sure at all about that because this could easily be seen by one 'side' as an attempt at reaching common ground through reason and logic and by the other 'side' as an entirely political pursuit. And let's face it, the political angle is really all they have to fall back on - convince onlookers with rhetoric and just pretend that your presentation won the day. Ignore facts and use every rhetorical trick to win over the audience.

Then what do you have? Groundhog day, I'd suggest.

This is may come across more as cynicism than skepticism and I suppose we'll see in the end but I really do have my doubts.

Anyhoo, back to cider laced with Ghost Chilli. Nah, Jk.

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Re: name and shame

#12482

Post by Apples »

welch wrote:
Apples wrote:Perusing the Lounge and Thunderdome it appears a commenter named "Alina" came to Pharyngula and started talking about PZ's "sexual poker" schtick. When PZ caught wind of it, he swung the ban-hammer and deleted 61 comments. Like it never even happened (except for the non sequitur responses from Pharyngulites). Now that's how you handle complaints about behavior at conferences, PZ-style. No muss, no fuss.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... ent-590602
Oh no, they justify the fuck out of PeeZus' actions. Scan down a bit, it's pretty cool.
Shit - this is rich. People who have been over at Nugent's (particularly the Justicar insults thread) have probably encountered "Pogsurf," who seems pretty trolly, appears to be basically anti-Pit, and called Justicar a "fruit."

Appears he went to Improbable Joe's blog and said something about "coming over to the dark side." Joe announces "Pogsurf" is a "Slymepitter."

Anyway, commenter "Susan" shows up at the Lounge and introduces herself as a perfect 'Gulag denizen - hates the Slymepit, mentally ill, loves the desert. Joe (citing Pogsurf's post on his blog and the current "troll infestation) and Morales are suspicious of Susan and indicate such. Caine, Clarke and others tell Improbable Joe to lay off (Caine even threatens to "report" Joe if he does this again), and the pathetic opera continues.... :violin: If you're a student/fan of the psychological dynamics at the 'Gulag, it's a must-read.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... ent-590760

Southern
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Re: name and shame

#12483

Post by Southern »

welch wrote:
Apples wrote:Perusing the Lounge and Thunderdome it appears a commenter named "Alina" came to Pharyngula and started talking about PZ's "sexual poker" schtick. When PZ caught wind of it, he swung the ban-hammer and deleted 61 comments. Like it never even happened (except for the non sequitur responses from Pharyngulites). Now that's how you handle complaints about behavior at conferences, PZ-style. No muss, no fuss.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... ent-590602
Oh no, they justify the fuck out of PeeZus' actions. Scan down a bit, it's pretty cool.
Comrade PZ never made jokes about sexual poker. Ever.

And we've always been in war with Estasia. Always.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12484

Post by Apples »

Here's the way "Pogsurf" apparently introduced himself at IJoe's blog:
Hi Joe, I am the notorious sockpuppeteer Martin Wiesner (real name, no junk mail please)/Pogsurf/Lobster Blogster/Tory Dipper etc etc. Sorry to hear about your recent spell of depression, but glad to hear you are making a good recovery. We loonies must stick together – I have Bipolar I.

For some reason which I can’t fathom out old PZ at Pharungula keeps banning me. To be honest his security leaks like a sieve, so half the time I can’t be bothered to try and break in.

I do however currently have three socks deep undercover there, but I know he watches over them like a hawk, so they can’t contribute much more than the occassional harmless quip.

Are you willing to swap over the dark side for a bit? I need people with real world experience, not out and out wankers like Justicar and co.

If my offer is too hot for you handle, just delete this comment, and we’ll say no more about it. I know from your excellent blog I can trust you. Leave me a signal if you are open to offers in the future, wink wink. [No cash I'm afraid, way too dodgy after all this bullshit in Cyprus]

Best wishes,

Corporal Jones

Tony Parsehole
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12485

Post by Tony Parsehole »

So PZ had the woman's "consent" to ask her for sex, repeatedly, after dragging her on stage?

Bullshit. Absolute bullshit. That would mean he had discussed with her beforehand exactly what he was going to do and say and she agreed. Oh, and she must have been stone-cold sober when she agreed too else the consent becomes invalid.
Strange that even Lord PZ doesn't even say that's how it happened. As Nerd would say "citation needed *FLOOSH* "
The retards on pharyngula would say black was white if PZ said so.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12486

Post by Dave »

Jan Steen wrote:
Karmakin wrote:
Jan Steen wrote:I'm afraid that I largely agree with welch in his pessimism. You are not debating reasonable people, you are debating members of a cult. We have witnessed their behaviour, their blatant dishonesty, so many times that they have become quite predictable. Perhaps not as predictable as Nerd of Redhead, but that is setting a very low bar indeed.

The recent Adria Richards story is an instructive case. When PZ Myers declares that "Adria Richards did everything exactly right" then this is treated as dogma by his sycophants (alright, that's why they are sycophants in the first place). Any dissent is labelled as misogyny, rape-enabling, etc., etc. Even relatively well-known allies (EBW, Julian) are burnt at the stake if they dare to question the correct PZ thought.

And these people must be convinced with reason and logic that they could be wrong? Well, could luck with that. You'll need it.
You are not talking to the cult you are talking to new/undecided people. It's also to present a reasonable alternative of sorts as they boot people out.
You don't need a debate for that, you just need to expose them for what they are. Demonstrate the lies, the hypocrisy, the dogmatic thinking, the sheer lunacy exhibited by some of them. You don't debate Scientology, you let them crawl from under their rock by lifting it.
While generally, I agree with your and welch's skepticism, if played the right way, this could provide an opportunity for "the B team" if thats what they are calling themselves, to expose the idiots in front of a larger audience. Look, FTB is a little shit-hole on the side of the Internet, but the pyt here is an even smaller shithole. If Jack, Wonderist, et. al. can use Nugent to gain greater circulation for the exposure of the FTB idiocy, good on them, but they need to have a realisitic understanding of what they are doing. Otherwise it will blow up in their faces. Either way it should be lulz-worthy for those who dont care too much.

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Re: name and shame

#12487

Post by Tigzy »

Apples wrote: Anyway, commenter "Susan" shows up at the Lounge and introduces herself as a perfect 'Gulag denizen - hates the Slymepit, mentally ill, loves the desert. Joe (citing Pogsurf's post on his blog and the current "troll infestation) and Morales are suspicious of Susan and indicate such. Caine, Clarke and others tell Improbable Joe to lay off (Caine even threatens to "report" Joe if he does this again), and the pathetic opera continues.... :violin: If you're a student/fan of the psychological dynamics at the 'Gulag, it's a must-read.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... ent-590760
WTF??? So Susan arrives at this 'safe space', and claims to be mentally ill and suffering from severe stress. Basically, she's in a pretty fragile state. And what's Improbable Joe's response?
Improbable Joe, bearer of the Official SpokesGuitar

26 March 2013 at 10:27 pm (UTC -5)

I gotta say… I see why people might mistrust Susan. One of the latest trolls has a bunch of dummy accounts and has asked people to help conduct “undercover missions” around here. It is all nonsense, of course. But it can be reasonable under the circumstances for people to be a little more careful than normal.

Me? I just carry a really really really sharp knife. And another knife. And the other knife is just for show, I swear. There’s actually a semi-funny story here, if anyone is interested… *grins*
I'm sorry, what were you people saying about 'empathy' and 'safe spaces' again?

Honestly, why would Improbable Joe bring up knives in that context? Fuckin weird, and creepy as hell too.

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Re: name and shame

#12488

Post by Apples »

Tigzy wrote:WTF??? So Susan arrives at this 'safe space', and claims to be mentally ill and suffering from severe stress. Basically, she's in a pretty fragile state. And what's Improbable Joe's response?
Improbable Joe, bearer of the Official SpokesGuitar

26 March 2013 at 10:27 pm (UTC -5)

I gotta say… I see why people might mistrust Susan. One of the latest trolls has a bunch of dummy accounts and has asked people to help conduct “undercover missions” around here. It is all nonsense, of course. But it can be reasonable under the circumstances for people to be a little more careful than normal.

Me? I just carry a really really really sharp knife. And another knife. And the other knife is just for show, I swear. There’s actually a semi-funny story here, if anyone is interested… *grins*
I'm sorry, what were you people saying about 'empathy' and 'safe spaces' again?

Honestly, why would Improbable Joe bring up knives in that context? Fuckin weird, and creepy as hell too.
Joe is just insufferably stupid. Even if "Susan" were an undercover troll, WTF is the worst that could happen? Someday she takes off the mask and says "ha ha ha fooled ya?" It's not like you get access to secret nuclear codes by hanging out in Pharyngula Lounge, for chrissakes.

His "nobody loves me, everybody hates me, guess I'll eat some worms" response to being called out is just pathetic. What a fucking twat.

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Re: forking thongles

#12489

Post by Gefan »

codelette wrote: ...Can we safely ass-ume (he he) that La Marcotte doesn't know how to wipe her ass?
She's too busy talking out of it.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12490

Post by Apples »

welch wrote:serioously? Aratina fucking cage is bitching about CHARITABLE INTERPRETATION???

Jesus take me home, i've fucking seen it ALL.
Over at Shakesville the current meme is, "'uncharitable' is the new 'bitch.'" See how that works? If you criticize a Shaker-style feminist by using a very mild rebuke, you're really, secretly, in your heart, doing it because you're an undercover misogynist. So your choices end up being, pretty much -- don't criticize at all, or (and this is what they're aiming for) -- simply call them a bitch.

Tony Parsehole
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12491

Post by Tony Parsehole »

Why anybody would want the fruitcakes at Shakesville as allies is beyond me.
Melissa McEwen is a bitter misanthropic psycho with a rape (and pie) fixation. PZ trying to court her good side reminds me of James Caan trying to grease around Kathy Bates in Misery.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12492

Post by Aneris »

Commerical Break-----------------
A hell of a rant. And a transparent underhanded attempt to continue to make this the cooler place to hang out. :D
[youtube]M6wJl37N9C0[/youtube]

LMU
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12493

Post by LMU »

Apples wrote:
welch wrote:serioously? Aratina fucking cage is bitching about CHARITABLE INTERPRETATION???

Jesus take me home, i've fucking seen it ALL.
Over at Shakesville the current meme is, "'uncharitable' is the new 'bitch.'" See how that works? If you criticize a Shaker-style feminist by using a very mild rebuke, you're really, secretly, in your heart, doing it because you're an undercover misogynist. So your choices end up being, pretty much -- don't criticize at all, or (and this is what they're aiming for) -- simply call them a bitch.
This is why you need to be very very careful about saying some words aren't allowed due to being "offensive." The word itself is just a sound, it's the (alleged) intent behind it that makes it offensive. If you remove that specific word from the vocabulary, then that intent just moves to a new word, and you've accomplished nothing but made an attempt to prescriptively and paternalistically alter language. The need to communicate thoughts generates language, not the other way around. This is why, for example, any term for "below average intelligence" will always come to have negative "ableist" connotations, and why people keep creating new terms trying to dump the baggage. The baggage always catches up because it comes with the idea or the intent, not the word. The problem (IMO) comes from projecting ideas or intent onto the speaker without actually understanding what they are trying to say in the first place.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12494

Post by Tony Parsehole »

Well said LMU.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12495

Post by Stretchycheese »

I'd like to wish the debate participants good luck. I look forward to watching... :popcorn:

Perhaps everyone has already put together what points they want to bring up, but I have some my suggestions. I don't claim to speak for everyone, but here's what I think are the most egregious problems we're seeing from the FTB/Skepchick/A+ crowd:
  • A destructive "callout culture". Not only is this counterproductive in resolving conflicts and harmful to interpersonal relationships and trust, but it contributes to an aggressive dogpiling "witch-hunt" environment.
  • Uncritical acceptance of radical feminist dogmas such as patriarchy theory, privilege, infantalization of women, victimhood, and biodenial (the view that gender is entirely socially constructed).
  • Related to the point above, a form of gynocentrism or "genderitis" as it's been called elsewhere. That is, the tendency to wear "gender goggles" when looking at social problems - the assumption that "gender power struggle" is behind social problems to the exclusion of other factors and nuances.
  • The abuse of words such as misogynist, harassment, and rape-apologist. Not only are they used as a smear tactic against dissent, but they are given misleadingly broadened definitions. This includes defining the word "feminism" broadly as "the view that women are people" and using it as a cudgel to misleadingly characterize dissent as "anti-woman".
  • A patronizing attitude towards women who disagree with their ideology. This includes rhetoric such as "listen to women!" with the implication that they speak for all women. In reality, it's "listen to [some] women!" Dissenting women are condescendingly dismissed as been duped by patriarchy and given dogmatic ideological labels like "chill girl", "gender traitor", "sister punisher" and "handmaidens of patriarchy".
  • A tribalistic, cult-like mentality that encourages groupthink, vilification of dissent, and othering. Dissent is automatically dismissed as misogyny, sexism, and harassment. Dissenters' statements or behaviours are interpreted in the worst possible light and attributed to sinister motivations (e.g. the "threat" narrative)
  • Equating internet troll culture with dissent. In other words, some obnoxious 15-year old in his parents' basement who tries to get a rise out people are placed in the same group as legitimate critics.
  • Use of postmodernist argumentation such as "kafkatrapping". Concepts such as "privilege" become like the doctrine of original sin. In other words, "you are part of the problem if you don't agree with my ideology" (*often heard as "you don't get it!" or "check your privilege!")
  • A commitment to a stuffy, overreacting, oversensitive political correctness philsophy that's counterproductive to free expression (i.e. "your rights end where my feelings begin!")
  • Frequent hypocritical behaviours. For example: "don't objectify me, but have our naked Skepchick calendar"; "we want a 'safe' space, but let's dogpile dissenters with vitriole and public shaming"; "we oppose hate, but fuck you you fucking fuck and go die in a fire!"; and "I value freedom of thought, and I like to smear dissenters and ban them", and others...
I'm sure's there more I haven't considered or came to mind. Any others?

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12496

Post by welch »

FrankGrimes wrote:
Jan Steen wrote:I'm afraid that I largely agree with welch in his pessimism. You are not debating reasonable people, you are debating members of a cult. We have witnessed their behaviour, their blatant dishonesty, so many times that they have become quite predictable. Perhaps not as predictable as Nerd of Redhead, but that is setting a very low bar indeed.

The recent Adria Richards story is an instructive case. When PZ Myers declares that "Adria Richards did everything exactly right" then this is treated as dogma by his sycophants (alright, that's why they are sycophants in the first place). Any dissent is labelled as misogyny, rape-enabling, etc., etc. Even relatively well-known allies (EBW, Julian) are burnt at the stake if they dare to question the correct PZ thought.

And these people must be convinced with reason and logic that they could be wrong? Well, could luck with that. You'll need it.

I'm new to all this but my 2c is that I agree with the above. From what I've seen they don't seem to know how to construct a logical argument. Nor do they seem to know how to deal with one when it is presented. Their skills are severely lacking in both areas so they're going to have to cram or fail. Their standard out when presented with evidence and clear, logical thinking is to gang up on people (dog-pile if you like), and/or suck the authorities into reaching into the toolkit for the hammer but they won't have either luxury in this case.

It's been said that this is exactly what will be their undoing and that this can only be a good thing. I'm not sure at all about that because this could easily be seen by one 'side' as an attempt at reaching common ground through reason and logic and by the other 'side' as an entirely political pursuit. And let's face it, the political angle is really all they have to fall back on - convince onlookers with rhetoric and just pretend that your presentation won the day. Ignore facts and use every rhetorical trick to win over the audience.

Then what do you have? Groundhog day, I'd suggest.

This is may come across more as cynicism than skepticism and I suppose we'll see in the end but I really do have my doubts.

Anyhoo, back to cider laced with Ghost Chilli. Nah, Jk.

Oh they know how. They choose not to. In this case, it is not ignorance, which I could forgive, nor even stupidity, which I could understand but deliberate refusal to treat opposing opinions as anything but hate.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12497

Post by welch »

Apples wrote:Here's the way "Pogsurf" apparently introduced himself at IJoe's blog:
Hi Joe, I am the notorious sockpuppeteer Martin Wiesner (real name, no junk mail please)/Pogsurf/Lobster Blogster/Tory Dipper etc etc. Sorry to hear about your recent spell of depression, but glad to hear you are making a good recovery. We loonies must stick together – I have Bipolar I.

For some reason which I can’t fathom out old PZ at Pharungula keeps banning me. To be honest his security leaks like a sieve, so half the time I can’t be bothered to try and break in.

I do however currently have three socks deep undercover there, but I know he watches over them like a hawk, so they can’t contribute much more than the occassional harmless quip.

Are you willing to swap over the dark side for a bit? I need people with real world experience, not out and out wankers like Justicar and co.

If my offer is too hot for you handle, just delete this comment, and we’ll say no more about it. I know from your excellent blog I can trust you. Leave me a signal if you are open to offers in the future, wink wink. [No cash I'm afraid, way too dodgy after all this bullshit in Cyprus]

Best wishes,

Corporal Jones

That's almost monty pythonesque quality there. I may be in love.

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l'Etat, c'est moi

#12498

Post by Apples »

Tony Parsehole wrote:Why anybody would want the fruitcakes at Shakesville as allies is beyond me.
Melissa McEwen is a bitter misanthropic psycho with a rape (and pie) fixation. PZ trying to court her good side reminds me of James Caan trying to grease around Kathy Bates in Misery.
LOL - you are so right. The Kathy Bates character is McEwan to a tee. I found this comment the other day from McEwan amazing and a total keeper. The italicized bit at the top is from a comment Salty Current made at Pharyngula:
I think this tendency to try to shut down potential criticism of McEwan might stem from her own tendency to present criticism of her as hostility to women or feminism

That is indeed my tendency. Although it is not to "present criticism" that way, so much as it is "contextualize criticism" that way. But I think the ire at that habit is better directed at the vast majority of my critics who cannot manage to criticize me without engaging in misogyny or playing into well-established anti-feminist narratives.

Would that I had the option of dealing with criticism that was not routinely cloaked in everything from thinly-veiled accusations of oversensitivity to spittle-flecked epithets like the ever-popular "fat cunt."

And, of course, many members of this community are eminently capable of presenting criticism and disagreement without any embedded misogyny or policing or whatever, and I respond to that criticism with the same good faith in which it was delivered.
See what she did there? She just admitted that she tends to take any criticism directed at her and "contextualizes" it as misogyny. She is so deeply ensconced in the delusion that she speaks for all women and is feminism incarnate that if you aren't in the Shakesville cult and you criticize McEwan you are in fact manifesting hostility to women in general.

No wonder even SJWs like Flewellyn and Salty Current accuse her of having created a cult of personality (and no wonder she is so willing to throw people like PZ, Adam Lee, and Ophelia under the bus). Of course, FTB/Skepchick/A-plussers have in the past few years adopted the same strategy -- any resistance to their pronouncements, regardless of the merits, may be dismissed prima facie as bigotry and hostility to social justice.

http://www.shakesville.com/2013/03/this ... -843296962

Al Stefanelli
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12499

Post by Al Stefanelli »

tina wrote:Everyone involved must submit their long form birth certificate and prove they're not Muslim and not wear thongs.
Don't be hatin' on my thongs...

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12500

Post by Tony Parsehole »

LOL at Mel insisting the epithet "fat cunt" is misogynistic as opposed to blatantly accurate.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12501

Post by Apples »

Aneris wrote:Commerical Break-----------------
A hell of a rant. And a transparent underhanded attempt to continue to make this the cooler place to hang out. :D
Growing up in a family that can afford braces for your crooked teeth and surgery for the nose that broke when you were hit with a frisbee at age 6 = oppression.

Poetry Slams makes me want to vomit. Every time.

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Re: l'Etat, c'est moi

#12502

Post by Submariner »

Apples wrote:
Tony Parsehole wrote:Why anybody would want the fruitcakes at Shakesville as allies is beyond me.
Melissa McEwen is a bitter misanthropic psycho with a rape (and pie) fixation. PZ trying to court her good side reminds me of James Caan trying to grease around Kathy Bates in Misery.
LOL - you are so right. The Kathy Bates character is McEwan to a tee. I found this comment the other day from McEwan amazing and a total keeper. The italicized bit at the top is from a comment Salty Current made at Pharyngula:
I think this tendency to try to shut down potential criticism of McEwan might stem from her own tendency to present criticism of her as hostility to women or feminism

That is indeed my tendency. Although it is not to "present criticism" that way, so much as it is "contextualize criticism" that way. But I think the ire at that habit is better directed at the vast majority of my critics who cannot manage to criticize me without engaging in misogyny or playing into well-established anti-feminist narratives.

Would that I had the option of dealing with criticism that was not routinely cloaked in everything from thinly-veiled accusations of oversensitivity to spittle-flecked epithets like the ever-popular "fat cunt."

And, of course, many members of this community are eminently capable of presenting criticism and disagreement without any embedded misogyny or policing or whatever, and I respond to that criticism with the same good faith in which it was delivered.
See what she did there? She just admitted that she tends to take any criticism directed at her and "contextualizes" it as misogyny. She is so deeply ensconced in the delusion that she speaks for all women and is feminism incarnate that if you aren't in the Shakesville cult and you criticize McEwan you are in fact manifesting hostility to women in general.

No wonder even SJWs like Flewellyn and Salty Current accuse her of having created a cult of personality (and no wonder she is so willing to throw people like PZ, Adam Lee, and Ophelia under the bus). Of course, FTB/Skepchick/A-plussers have in the past few years adopted the same strategy -- any resistance to their pronouncements, regardless of the merits, may be dismissed prima facie as bigotry and hostility to social justice.

http://www.shakesville.com/2013/03/this ... -843296962
I am SOOOOO hoping that this Shakesville/Pharyngula exchange is able to be used in the Nugent discussions.

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Re: name and shame

#12503

Post by Aneris »

Tigzy wrote:
Apples wrote: Anyway, commenter "Susan" shows up at the Lounge and introduces herself as a perfect 'Gulag denizen - hates the Slymepit, mentally ill, loves the desert. Joe (citing Pogsurf's post on his blog and the current "troll infestation) and Morales are suspicious of Susan and indicate such. Caine, Clarke and others tell Improbable Joe to lay off (Caine even threatens to "report" Joe if he does this again), and the pathetic opera continues.... :violin: If you're a student/fan of the psychological dynamics at the 'Gulag, it's a must-read.http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... ent-590760
<snip>
Improbable Joe, bearer of the Official SpokesGuitar wrote:[...] Me? I just carry a really really really sharp knife. And another knife. And the other knife is just for show, I swear. There’s actually a semi-funny story here, if anyone is interested… *grins*
I'm sorry, what were you people saying about 'empathy' and 'safe spaces' again? Honestly, why would Improbable Joe bring up knives in that context? Fuckin weird, and creepy as hell too.
They are totally creepy. Of course they won't see it that way. The Snowflake Sue Story is actually rather sad if true. She did everything right, as Apples pointed out. Even more, she was utmost submissive, which is the best pronunciation of "Shibboleth" they ever heard. But who wants to cross the Jordan anyway?

:violin:
Chris Clarke wrote:Meanwhile, I’m hesitant to encourage friends to comment on what is arguably my own goddamn blog, because no matter how thick their skin is they’ve got to get past this kind of mistrustful hazing — which is, incidentally, something PZ has expressly forbidden. It sucks, and it makes me feel embarrassed to be part of the dynamic here. You owe a number of apologies. Starting with Susan, should she come back.
Well, when you pour liters of poison into the well it will eventually seep into the ground water and end up in your own drink. It is now interesting how they deal with the realization that the Demonic Others have been right all along. I'm curious how this plays out. Didn't Matt Dillahunty point this out regarding A+Theism? Perhaps, when PZ Myers' supply of Yellow Paper and his Ad money runs dry he might hazard to speak out against it. It would probably be a 1000+ comment thread.
The Great Disappointment is viewed by some scholars as an example of the psychological phenomenon of cognitive dissonance.[14] The theory was proposed by Leon Festinger to describe the formation of new beliefs and increased proselytizing in order to reduce the tension, or dissonance, that results from failed prophecies.[15] According to the theory, believers experienced tension following the failure of Jesus' reappearance in 1844, which led to a variety of new explanations. The various solutions form a part of the teachings of the different groups that outlived the disappointment.
I look forward to this Epic Moment of Told You So :popcorn:

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12504

Post by Apples »

LMU wrote:The problem (IMO) comes from projecting ideas or intent onto the speaker without actually understanding what they are trying to say in the first place.
Bingo! "Intent isn't magic?" Damn straight it's not magic -- discerning and addressing intent is a fucking science. It's the everyday human science of trying to figure out who you're really dealing with and communicating with them accordingly, which is the only decent and intelligent way to live.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12505

Post by welch »

I love Atheist Ireland on Facebook. They're so cute:
Atheist Ireland is not giving expenses to any of our speakers at the Conference.
O RLY?
No but we have to pay for their flights, hotel accommodation and meals etc.
YA RLY!

NOT!!!!!

That could almost be written by FTB, it's so dumb.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12506

Post by AndrewV69 »

Reginald D hunter live :

Lays down some "bad werds" in the first few minutes. Then it gets even funnier:

[youtube]gvJ-6ukhDZA[/youtube]

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12507

Post by RichardReed84 »

Thought you guys might like my latest blog post! It's about Ophelia Benson and harassment. :) http://richardreed84.wordpress.com/2013 ... ia-benson/

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12508

Post by Apples »

RichardReed84 wrote:Thought you guys might like my latest blog post! It's about Ophelia Benson and harassment. :) http://richardreed84.wordpress.com/2013 ... ia-benson/
I do find myself wondering how Ophelia feels about Jon Stewart's "harassment" of Michele Bachmann and Sarah Palin.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12509

Post by Cunning Punt »

Lost Moose wrote:
welch wrote:Oh look, what passes for logic in marcotteville:



seriously, just how full of shit does one have to be before it starts running out one's nose?
From awhile ago but if it's somebody else's shit and her nose then...

While living in a city notorious for smelling like, well, a New York bathroom. The logical thing to think is the venting system is inadequate, or she's actually part of some famed New York performance artist completing her gerbil on a treadmill experience.
Marcotte_Restroom_Etiquette.JPG
(51.88 KiB) Downloaded 202 times
Hmm. I wonder why she is so pissed about that particular stall being used? Did she want to use it? Could it be that it's okay for her to use the nearest stall, but not anybody else?

And the words "separate person" are telling. A separate person, I tell you, someone who is actually not me! I didn't know such a thing existed! A completely separate human being with their own independent center of initiative.... I bet they wear a thong.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12510

Post by AbsurdWalls »

Submariner wrote:One thing I'm not understanding is this whole super secret back channel approach to the set-up for these discussions.

Why not announce the initial participants? Why not publicly discuss moderation policies? What role does the "moderator" for each "side" play?

How does it help the process to keep these things from scrutiny?
I think having the process be a little shadowy might prevent the FTB side withdrawing before the event. I would imagine OB etc. speaking out against the idea of a dialogue before it happens could have put off other people from that side participating.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12511

Post by AbsurdWalls »

Apples wrote:
RichardReed84 wrote:Thought you guys might like my latest blog post! It's about Ophelia Benson and harassment. :) http://richardreed84.wordpress.com/2013 ... ia-benson/
I do find myself wondering how Ophelia feels about Jon Stewart's "harassment" of Michele Bachmann and Sarah Palin.
Doesn't the punching up/down argument come into this? You're only allowed to make fun of somebody if they're "above" you in the kyriarchy. A system in which some people are claiming a permanent "dibs" on the bottom rung.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12512

Post by Submariner »

AbsurdWalls wrote:
Submariner wrote:One thing I'm not understanding is this whole super secret back channel approach to the set-up for these discussions.

Why not announce the initial participants? Why not publicly discuss moderation policies? What role does the "moderator" for each "side" play?

How does it help the process to keep these things from scrutiny?
I think having the process be a little shadowy might prevent the FTB side withdrawing before the event. I would imagine OB etc. speaking out against the idea of a dialogue before it happens could have put off other people from that side participating.
She already did this:

http://freethoughtblogs.com/almostdiamo ... in-dialog/

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12513

Post by JackSkeptic »

welch wrote:
Jack wrote:A good example of never really knowing someone until you have seen them discuss openly is Aratina Cage. He is heavily outnumbered yet stays calm and polite. Before then I just knew him as the guy who loved censorship.
He is calm and polite now because he sees no choice. A bit of googling shows how he tends to be when he feels confident in his surroundings.
Oh I'm familiar with his comments and actions from before including the Stormfront reference.

I'm also under no delusions. On Nugents we saw some come on, do the nice act, and then when pushed reveal their colours. Many people have a vested interest in not letting anything happen and will continue on regardless anyway. As far as they are concerned their version of Social Justice is the only acceptable version and everyone else needs to get out. They see the Atheist movement as a vehicle to push their social agenda and see no room for anyone else.

However I will keep a very open mind about this. I have no intention of poisoning the well before we even start. In any event this is just the few of us, what we say or do is irrelevant, it is just a possible start to others coming in and not everyone on their side of the fence is incapable of reason.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12514

Post by JackSkeptic »

Apples wrote:
Jan Steen wrote:Setár is not the only one who tries to paint the Slymepitters as radical right wing fanatics. Folk like “die-in-a-fire” Wowbagger and Aratina Sewer do the same by bringing up Stormfront and the KKK when they mention the ‘Pit. These people are not skeptics in any true sense of the word. I call them total idealists. They are idealists not only in that they strive for a better world, like rational idealists do, but they are also idealists in that they believe that every single person who disagrees with their goals or methods must be vile and beneath contempt. This is because in an ideal world your opponents are scum and can be treated like scum. The total idealists of this world, people like Setár, are the ones who put dissenters, or potential dissenters, in ‘re-education’ camps. He has ‘Khmer Rouge’ written all over his hateful posts. Fortunately, through an accident of history, he is just some loser in Canada instead of someone who has been given the power to shoot ‘enemies of the people’ in the back of the neck.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/almostdiamo ... ent-220320
This has been his constant refrain for weeks - "Can't we just reject these people who disagree with us as rightwing libertarian denialists and tell them they need to 'shape up' or be excluded?" And the answer is - Yes, you can do so at Atheism Plus and several of the FTBlogs, but those tactics ain't gonna work in the real world or in any space with a robust and relatively open dialogue.

One fact that is revealed again and again is that many, if not most, people here are intimately familiar with the history of this conflict and have read the SJ blogs and commentaries for years. When we talk about FTB/A+/Skepchick, we actually know what we are talking about, whereas the vast majority of the baboons have no idea at all what actually gets said here (and often haven't even paid close attention to what their own allies have said).

One reason an open debate is so dangerous for them is that, whereas they constantly repeat the shibboleth that the 'Pit engages in hateful, lying harassment, they will have a very hard time citing examples of discussions here that allow factual untruths to be propagated without correction. There is so much careful documentation and in-context quotation that in a debate context any attempt to paint this place as a font of disinformation or bigotry is bound to backfire.

Their most powerful charge is that the 'Pit is sometimes mean, uses bad werdz, and occasionally calls people fat. That may carry weight in a single blogpost with carefully chosen examples but (one hopes) is not going to be sufficient ammunition to win the day in any discussion that engages with facts and ideas.

Not everyone is as stupid as Improbable Joe, but this is his take on the 'Pit (from a comment at Ophelia's):
What everyone else said… plus, what do the Slymepit cretins want? I can think of a few things:

1)They want to say whatever they want about other people, without criticism.

2) They want to restrict what topics other people address on their blogs and in their organizations.

3) They want to set moderation policies for everyone’s blogs.

4) They want to get rid of anti-harassment policies at all atheist/skeptic conventions/gatherings.

5) They demand that no one block them on Twitter or Facebook.

Did I miss any? And how are any of those things reasonable?
http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterflies ... ent-511454
This is an example of gross strawmaning we get all the time. The answer to all those is not only 'no' it is demonstrable with a casual glance at what we say and do. I read that last night and it is the sort of thing that does not get called on over there.

This poisoning has been going on for so long and many are so lazy to check things for themselves they have not got a clue what we stand for.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12515

Post by welch »

AndrewV69 wrote:Reginald D hunter live :

Lays down some "bad werds" in the first few minutes. Then it gets even funnier:

[youtube]gvJ-6ukhDZA[/youtube]
Oh fuck me, almost pissing myself here. "When I was young, I got mixed up in something dangerous for a teenager in the deep south...sarcasm"

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12516

Post by JackSkeptic »

Tony Parsehole wrote:Give me religious nuts like Brother Edward over atheist spunk-trumpets like Setar any day.
As was already mentioned can somebody draw Melissa Macewen's attention to the video of PZ Myers asking a female audience member for sex?
I would do it myself but this crappy tablet I'm using for internet access makes shit-stirring such a chore.
I read Brother Edwards website. He needs to push his message out as the Church seems to be just him and errr...him from a gospel that was written by...err...him. He really ripped them a hole at A+ about moderation though it was great fun. He had links to secular sites too so he seems to like to debate.

It comes to something when a religious person (I have reservations about that) is far more open than an atheist website that is called Atheism Plus. I deeply resent them hijacking the name like that.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12517

Post by JackSkeptic »

AnonymousCowherd wrote:I want "us" to be Team B, because then "our" first two speakers will be these two guys:

http://images.thevine.com.au/resources/ ... ping_h.jpg

The first decision we made is avoid any reference to the Slymypit in names etc. Of course that wont stop them lumping us all together.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12518

Post by bovarchist »

AnonymousCowherd wrote:
Solve anagrams. It's supposed to help. If not, there's a Luger in the back room.
well...Richard Dawkins is an anagram of Sir Raw Hand Dick.

Also 'inward dick rash' and 'I warn, dick's hard'.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12519

Post by JackSkeptic »

Karmakin wrote:
Jan Steen wrote:I'm afraid that I largely agree with welch in his pessimism. You are not debating reasonable people, you are debating members of a cult. We have witnessed their behaviour, their blatant dishonesty, so many times that they have become quite predictable. Perhaps not as predictable as Nerd of Redhead, but that is setting a very low bar indeed.

The recent Adria Richards story is an instructive case. When PZ Myers declares that "Adria Richards did everything exactly right" then this is treated as dogma by his sycophants (alright, that's why they are sycophants in the first place). Any dissent is labelled as misogyny, rape-enabling, etc., etc. Even relatively well-known allies (EBW, Julian) are burnt at the stake if they dare to question the correct PZ thought.

And these people must be convinced with reason and logic that they could be wrong? Well, could luck with that. You'll need it.
You are not talking to the cult you are talking to new/undecided people. It's also to present a reasonable alternative of sorts as they boot people out.
Exactly and maybe those who have been fed a false narrative. When I read over there 90% of what they say about 'us' is factually wrong. People like Setar are just hateful bigots who will never change but I suspect many readers have simply not bothered to check facts. I do not care about what they believe I care about how they are trying to shut down reason and open discourse.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12520

Post by Metalogic42 »

welch wrote:
AndrewV69 wrote:Reginald D hunter live :

Lays down some "bad werds" in the first few minutes. Then it gets even funnier:

*video snip*
Oh fuck me, almost pissing myself here. "When I was young, I got mixed up in something dangerous for a teenager in the deep south...sarcasm"
Just started watching this. He said "nigger"!!! He must be extremely racist! Reginald D. Hunter, why do you hate black people so much?

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12521

Post by Aneris »

Plan Bâ„¢ for Team B.
Reminder of Agenda

1. How we can work together on core issues on which we broadly agree, including promoting reason, critical thinking, science, skepticism, atheism and secularism in the real world.

2. How we can balance the right to freedom of expression and robust debate about ideas and issues, with the desire to not unnecessarily hurt people who disagree with us about those ideas.

3. How and to what extent our various communities and groups should have ethical and equality and social justice issues on our internal and external agendas.

4. How we can each, as individuals, lead unilaterally by example by behaving reasonably and charitably and constructively, while others are not doing so.

5. Any other issues that people believe are important to address
Nugent posted the Agenda already, so we can prepare. I suggest that each agenda point 1-4 gets one thread, i.e. 4 threads. Plus 1 thread as a Meta thread, which also includes point 5. At least the Meta Thread should have an index with the links to the other four, and if possible, Lsuoma could copy and paste this "index" into each starting thread (since we can't edit and add the links before the threads are set up).

I suggest that someone on the team, or a veteran user sets this up. Here is an example, steal, copypaste, change.

Nugent 1: How to Work Together Where We Agree.
Nugent 2: Freedom of Speech versus Hurtful Comments
Nugent 3: On the Importance of Social Justice Issues
Nugent 4: Overcoming Hostilities
Nugent X: The Meta Thread.

Guestheist

Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12522

Post by Guestheist »

I wonder if Shakesville has out-A+sd the FTBullies and babboons.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12523

Post by JackSkeptic »

Dave wrote:
Jan Steen wrote:
Karmakin wrote:
Jan Steen wrote:I'm afraid that I largely agree with welch in his pessimism. You are not debating reasonable people, you are debating members of a cult. We have witnessed their behaviour, their blatant dishonesty, so many times that they have become quite predictable. Perhaps not as predictable as Nerd of Redhead, but that is setting a very low bar indeed.

The recent Adria Richards story is an instructive case. When PZ Myers declares that "Adria Richards did everything exactly right" then this is treated as dogma by his sycophants (alright, that's why they are sycophants in the first place). Any dissent is labelled as misogyny, rape-enabling, etc., etc. Even relatively well-known allies (EBW, Julian) are burnt at the stake if they dare to question the correct PZ thought.

And these people must be convinced with reason and logic that they could be wrong? Well, could luck with that. You'll need it.
You are not talking to the cult you are talking to new/undecided people. It's also to present a reasonable alternative of sorts as they boot people out.
You don't need a debate for that, you just need to expose them for what they are. Demonstrate the lies, the hypocrisy, the dogmatic thinking, the sheer lunacy exhibited by some of them. You don't debate Scientology, you let them crawl from under their rock by lifting it.
While generally, I agree with your and welch's skepticism, if played the right way, this could provide an opportunity for "the B team" if thats what they are calling themselves, to expose the idiots in front of a larger audience. Look, FTB is a little shit-hole on the side of the Internet, but the pyt here is an even smaller shithole. If Jack, Wonderist, et. al. can use Nugent to gain greater circulation for the exposure of the FTB idiocy, good on them, but they need to have a realisitic understanding of what they are doing. Otherwise it will blow up in their faces. Either way it should be lulz-worthy for those who dont care too much.
Underline mine. Absolutely and we do:)

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12524

Post by katamari Damassi »

Tony Parsehole wrote:Why anybody would want the fruitcakes at Shakesville as allies is beyond me.
Melissa McEwen is a bitter misanthropic psycho with a rape (and pie) fixation. PZ trying to court her good side reminds me of James Caan trying to grease around Kathy Bates in Misery.
One thing she has in common with PZ is that on her blog she's the Queen of Hearts but in real life she's incredibly fragile. She once described being reduced to tears because she thought she was receiving disapproving looks from customers at a Panera.

Guestheist

Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12525

Post by Guestheist »

for a person like McEwan, any criticism is a personal attack.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12526

Post by bovarchist »

Apples wrote:
RichardReed84 wrote:Thought you guys might like my latest blog post! It's about Ophelia Benson and harassment. :) http://richardreed84.wordpress.com/2013 ... ia-benson/
I do find myself wondering how Ophelia feels about Jon Stewart's "harassment" of Michele Bachmann and Sarah Palin.
Don't forget Bill Maher's "harassment" of Chris Christie. Seriously, Christie fat jokes are now his go-to gag.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12527

Post by Aneris »

Jack wrote:[...]If Jack, Wonderist, et. al. can use Nugent to gain greater circulation for the exposure of the FTB idiocy, good on them, but they need to have a realisitic understanding of what they are doing. Otherwise it will blow up in their faces. Either way it should be lulz-worthy for those who dont care too much.
Underline mine. Absolutely and we do:)[/quote]

I am also skeptical when it comes to the other side, but I am not skeptical regarding the other audience. Put your focus there. I was an "outsider" only a few months back and only posted in a remote small forum for a longer time that is (still) completely blissful ignorant about all of this. The whole Jerry Coyne crowd, and RDFRS are also somewhat removed from all of this. Pharyngula is a kind of bridgehead into the blogosphere and only through their "advertisement" I knew about this place here. First, I did believe their misogynist story but also didn't really care, since the internet is large and I didn't want to chase down every opinion. But over time the pattern emerged and they tried to label me as well when it dawned on me that their judgment is probably way off.

I say, fear not! Be fair. Don't overindulge in their wrongdoings, and stick to the facts and it will work its magic. Don't make the mistake of becoming the inquisitor and accuser yourself and always consider that the Slymepit is the David versus the high traffic network Goliath. I think we won already. There is the Ellen Beth Wachs story. There is the McEwan issue that already corners them from both sides. And Chris Clarke now even bemoaned today that he can't invite friends over to his place, because it's fucked up. Also, we are the underdog and demonized place, and our reputation can't get any worse. We have nothing to lose.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12528

Post by katamari Damassi »

The only feminist blog I've read that's crazier than Shakesville is Twisty Faster's I Blame the Patriarchy. Even feminists think she's nuts.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12529

Post by Phil_Giordana_FCD »

Jack wrote:
Dave wrote:realisitic understanding of what they are doing.
Underline mine. Absolutely and we do:)
I don't. I'm moslty drunk these days. I have no idea what I'm doing. Who are you people anyway? That doesn't look like my regular porn site!

/drunk (I did say I'm on and off the booze. Well, today I'm on).

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12530

Post by JackSkeptic »

AbsurdWalls wrote:
Submariner wrote:One thing I'm not understanding is this whole super secret back channel approach to the set-up for these discussions.

Why not announce the initial participants? Why not publicly discuss moderation policies? What role does the "moderator" for each "side" play?

How does it help the process to keep these things from scrutiny?
I think having the process be a little shadowy might prevent the FTB side withdrawing before the event. I would imagine OB etc. speaking out against the idea of a dialogue before it happens could have put off other people from that side participating.
Yep. I am more than happy for people to strongly criticise and comment on 'our' side and in fact I welcome it, it is how we do things. I would guess it may be trickier for them. I am taking Michael's judgement on this too. He is likely to know things we do not. I do trust him and I feel he does have a strong belief in open discussion where possible. Many others would have shut down their blog areas a couple of weeks ago and given up.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12531

Post by Tony Parsehole »

katamari Damassi wrote:One thing she has in common with PZ is that on her blog she's the Queen of Hearts but in real life she's incredibly fragile. She once described being reduced to tears because she thought she was receiving disapproving looks from customers at a Panera.
Don't forget they both have similar taste in facial hair. Sporadic and matted.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12532

Post by Tony Parsehole »

katamari Damassi wrote:The only feminist blog I've read that's crazier than Shakesville is Twisty Faster's I Blame the Patriarchy. Even feminists think she's nuts.
It takes some damn hard graft to be crazier than Shakesville so citation needed*. Linky?



*Fucking Nerd has got me saying that all the time now. My lass said we had ran out of teabags and I responded with "citation needed". That tit has got a lot to answer for.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12533

Post by Scented Nectar »

AnonymousCowherd wrote:
Scented Nectar wrote:
I've never heard of No96. I'll look for it on youtube. In Prisoner Cell Block H, 'lagging' is telling on someone or tattletaling, a high crime in Wentworth Prison. Also 'dobbing someone in' is the same thing, ratting on someone and getting them into trouble.
Fair suck of the sav, you shielas'd watch a drongo rot if the telly was cactus. Yez'r all cucking funts. Z'at slab in the esky?

Ah the 70s. Hell on earth, really.
Oh yeah, I forgot about 'drongo'. That's another new (old) word I learned. :D

I have no idea though, what "Fair suck of the sav" or "Z'at slab in the esky" mean.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12534

Post by Scented Nectar »

agarybuseychristmas wrote:I can't believe this stupid fucking "MEN SIT WITH THEIR LEGS OPEN AND IT'S OPPRESSION!" shit has actually starting to take off. We were making fun of this years ago.
If they are taking up part of her seat's space, that's easy to fix. I've done it many times. I immediately push their leg back onto their own seat by opening my own legs to fully encompass MY seat's space, pushing his off of my seat, forcibly if needed. They almost never say anything, but if they do, just say in a non-emotional flat voice "you were taking up part of my seat". Easy. Fixed and also the man will probably be a bit more careful about seat hogging after that.

http://www.scentednectar.com/blogpics/0 ... t-hogs.png
Notice the woman in this picture (which I surreptitiously took on Toronto's subway) is not doing anything at all. She is just letting it happen, accommodating it even. Instead of simply being assertive and taking back her seat's full space, she probably went home and cried to her friends or blogged about it. If the man in this picture was sitting next to another man, he'd have stayed on his own seat, so there's no reason why he needs extra space when a woman sits next to him, even if it is a little bit more comfortable.

I wrote about seat hogs last year at http://scentednectar.blogspot.com/2012/ ... -hogs.html

I always wear pants and never dresses or skirts. I suppose it might be difficult to forcefully get your own seat back using your legs if wearing a dress or skirt and you fear not looking lady-like. The front of the dress/skirt if careful, could prevent underwear from showing, but if a woman fears breaking gender role rules (as many of the feminists seem to do ironically), then she'll be too scared to sit open-legged or to demand her full seat's space.

They'd much rather be scared victims than to actually do anything to take back their own seat space.

skepandsprinkles
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12535

Post by skepandsprinkles »

Bah, it's much more fun to sit with your labia flapping in the wind. You know, opposed to crying about it on the interwebz.

Tony Parsehole
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12536

Post by Tony Parsehole »

skepandsprinkles wrote:Bah, it's much more fun to sit with your labia flapping in the wind. You know, opposed to crying about it on the interwebz.
Fap, fap, fap.

John Brown
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12537

Post by John Brown »

Scented Nectar wrote:
agarybuseychristmas wrote:I can't believe this stupid fucking "MEN SIT WITH THEIR LEGS OPEN AND IT'S OPPRESSION!" shit has actually starting to take off. We were making fun of this years ago.
If they are taking up part of her seat's space, that's easy to fix. I've done it many times. I immediately push their leg back onto their own seat by opening my own legs to fully encompass MY seat's space, pushing his off of my seat, forcibly if needed. They almost never say anything, but if they do, just say in a non-emotional flat voice "you were taking up part of my seat". Easy. Fixed and also the man will probably be a bit more careful about seat hogging after that.

http://www.scentednectar.com/blogpics/0 ... t-hogs.png
Notice the woman in this picture (which I surreptitiously took on Toronto's subway) is not doing anything at all. She is just letting it happen, accommodating it even. Instead of simply being assertive and taking back her seat's full space, she probably went home and cried to her friends or blogged about it. If the man in this picture was sitting next to another man, he'd have stayed on his own seat, so there's no reason why he needs extra space when a woman sits next to him, even if it is a little bit more comfortable.

I wrote about seat hogs last year at http://scentednectar.blogspot.com/2012/ ... -hogs.html

I always wear pants and never dresses or skirts. I suppose it might be difficult to forcefully get your own seat back using your legs if wearing a dress or skirt and you fear not looking lady-like. The front of the dress/skirt if careful, could prevent underwear from showing, but if a woman fears breaking gender role rules (as many of the feminists seem to do ironically), then she'll be too scared to sit open-legged or to demand her full seat's space.

They'd much rather be scared victims than to actually do anything to take back their own seat space.
The thing about pictures like these is they are taken completely out of context. How do we know that these are two strangers or two lovers, or two friends? People with close relationships aren't as concerned about personal space and sometimes accommodate the other person.

But, yeah. Point taken. I've done this myself on airplanes. If you are sitting in the middle seat, both armrests are yours (or at least shared). Be prepared to have my arm all up in there until you get the point.

Gefan
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12538

Post by Gefan »

Apples wrote:
Aneris wrote:Commerical Break-----------------
A hell of a rant. And a transparent underhanded attempt to continue to make this the cooler place to hang out. :D
Growing up in a family that can afford braces for your crooked teeth and surgery for the nose that broke when you were hit with a frisbee at age 6 = oppression.

Poetry Slams makes me want to vomit. Every time.
I kind of want to attend one just so I can yell out; "You're not funny!" And then get thrown out.

Dick Strawkins
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12539

Post by Dick Strawkins »

Apples wrote:
Aneris wrote:Commerical Break-----------------
A hell of a rant. And a transparent underhanded attempt to continue to make this the cooler place to hang out. :D
Growing up in a family that can afford braces for your crooked teeth and surgery for the nose that broke when you were hit with a frisbee at age 6 = oppression.

Poetry Slams makes me want to vomit. Every time.
Hey, I liked that one!
:shifty:

LMU
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#12540

Post by LMU »

Tony Parsehole wrote:Well said LMU.
Thanks! :)

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