The Periodic Table's Younger, Sexier, Sibling Thread...

[welch]

The thing i love is just how closely they monitor this site, just so they can complain how we're bullying them. Because we...make them come here?

Anyway...I bet right now that before the week is out, we'll see posts and comments and tweets et al about how OMG JUSTIN VACULA WANTS TO SNEAK INTO OUR CONFERENCE or WELCH IS GOING TO SNEAK IN.

Well, probably not me, i'm not all that important to them. Which i'm fine with.

Look at the reaction from Mr. Hensley (yes, I know, it's deliberate) about my idle poking at the idea of submitting a session to TAM. All of a sudden, i'm trying to "break into public speaking." That's a hoot, since i've been doing it for, well, this year will be my 14th year (we had some unexpected openings in Mac IT, so I'm doing a session on migrating to Google Apps for Enterprise.) But when you think your world is the end all and be all of everything, you make those silly assumptions. (I ignore Wachs' similar comments. She's an idiot, I refuse to take anything she says seriously until she stops being an idiot.)

But manipulating the narrative is so important, and making sure the enemies list is properly refreshed is so critical to how they work that they have to do this. Any one sane reading my comments would realize that it was idle musing. I may do it, I may not. But it was in the context of "how to stop New Media Douchebags from dominating things you don't want them to dominate". i.e. "if you dislike the current crop of speakers, do some work and replace them with better options. Even if that means you." However, since they know that most of their followers will never read anything themselves, or at best glance at it. There's no chance of them getting a lot of pushback from that end. They also know that they've got people, at least for now, cowed into being unwilling to publicly oppose them, although Shermer's essay might accelerate changes in that area.

So they keep on keepin' on, because there's no consequences for them. PeeZus /Ophelia et al want to misrepresent people? There's no harm in it for them. No consequences.

The best way to change that is to push them out of the spotlight. It's not like FTB as a site is doing well, given none of the clots in charge there know fuck all about making money from websites. If the people writing there aren't planning on where they can move their blogs after it shuts down, they're a little naive. It's also not like they really have that much power, unless people give it to them. As I've said before, it's not easy, but it's doable. If you're involved with groups that put on things like FreeOK does, encourage them to use local talent instead of names. If that means you have to do more grunt work to market the event, so be it. Hie thee to the streets and do-ist thine own work.

For example, there's a kid in Louisiana, Zack Kopplin, who is not only writing angry blog posts about OMG CREATIONISTS,he's actually doing real work to get that shit fixed. Everyone was all glowy about Jessica Alquist, well, here's another example. He's actually helping state legislators write and introduce bills to repeal shit like LESA, and he's local to a BUNCH of states in the south and southeast.

Fuck PeeZus and the rest, get Zack Kopplin to talk. He'd be a great person for various atheist/skeptic events.

There are lots of people, of all ages and genders and backgrounds like Zack. They aren't getting book deals and free trips to Australia, but then again, they're actually doing stuff. If LESA gets repealed, no one at FTB, A+, or Skepchicks will have fuck all anything to do with it. It will be because of people like Zack and Eugenie Scott and others who spend a lot of time and effort to get shit done. THOSE are the people who should be talking, and they are everywhere.

The best, the best way to make the entire FTB/A+/Skepchicks problem go the fuck away is to replace them with people who are actually getting things done.

[clod]

"But then, Mr Michael Shermer doesn’t do self-awareness:"

." But see, this is why the atheist movement can’t have leaders. The ones we’ve got, informally, all seem to think they’re like gods and popes, infallible and unquestionable, and that normal, healthy, productive criticism within the movement is all a conspiracy to dethrone them."

Peezus is fucking insane.

[Pitchguest]

Self-proclaimed elite semi-fascist Sally Strange says this,

In fact, now that I think about it, Shermer specifically made reference to the Malleus Maleficorum, which makes it more than likely that he was consciously making reference to the witch hunts in Europe, which actually were mass killings of women motivated in large part by misogyny. So. No claim of ignorance for him.

*sigh*

http://suite101.com/article/truth-and-m ... ts-a241382

Much has been made of the witch hunt as an anti-feminine and anti-pagan campaign by Christian males. While some misogynistic and religious reasons were involved, it wasn’t necessarily so.

While about 80 % of the charged and 85% of the executed for witchcraft in Europe were women a good number of men were also killed. In Estonia, for example, about two third of the accused were men, in Finland 70% and in Iceland a whopping 92% were males.

Since most of the accused were or considered themselves to be Christians, the anti-pagan crusade idea holds little water with most modern scholars.

http://departments.kings.edu/womens_his ... l#misogyny

The Witch Hunts embodied a social hostility toward women. Such theories are often tied with popularizing feminist writers, who might also see in witchcraft a source of empowerment for women. Indeed, the ongoing subordination of women, womens connection to folk-magic and healing, and changing views of womens social and economic place in Early Modern Europe were important factors in the hunts. The majority of accused and executed were female, yet also old, living alone (whether widowed or spinster), and poor.

BUT, such theories exaggerate the proportions of women involved and the extent to which women were the focus. See Myth #4. Men in some witch hunts were the majority of victims; and some hunts persecuted children of both sexes.

http://departments.kings.edu/womens_his ... html#women

Many witch hunters, particularly the authors of the Malleus Maleficarum, held that women were far more susceptible to temptation by the Devil, and thus more frequently became witches. Some witch hunts did almost exclusively target women, in percentages as high as 95% of the victims.

...

Nonetheless, men were often accused of being witches, and executed for it. ... In some areas, like Russia, the large majority of victims were male. Further, women did participate in the system, as accusers, witnesses, and sometimes as examiners, prickers, food providers, and jail personnel.

...

There are reasons why we should look at some aspects of the witch hunt as a crime against women, yet we should not go too far to make it only about women. ... Christine Larner ... [states] that "Witchcraft was not sex-specific, but it was sex-related."

Anymore nonsense you want to throw our way, Sally? Also, bear in mind, during that time, misogyny really *did* mean hatred of women. Not the watered down, redefined version you've concocted for yourself. If you told the women during the witch hunts of the 14th to 17th century that you suffered "misogyny", they'd laugh in your face — and then they'd probably beat the crap out of you for making fun of their suffering. So fuck off, Sally, you drab twat.

[Skep tickle]

I love Shermer.
Anyway, i wrote up the "Atheism Plus - Periodical Table of Swearing" staring The_Laughing_Coyote.
http://unbelievesteve.wordpress.com/201 ... -swearing/

Haha. Cipher was like that too at the start but seems to have calmed down (or, been given tranquilizers).

You must have searched by username to find your quotes; a search there of "fuck*" turns up 4039 matches. (Not always directed at others there, but a noticeable portion are.)

[windy]

Doing a bit of further research, I found this: http://www.algemeiner.com/2011/05/29/se ... p-z-myers/

(It's sometimes fun to google "PZ Myers discredited"). And I found this.

If the Rabbi's statement of PZ's argument is accurate, then PZ did a very good job of straw-manning atheistic arguments about design (including suggesting that evolution is a wholly random process when it is in fact the combination of randomness PLUS NATURAL SELECTION, which by its nature is not random but selective). Lay atheists sometimes tend to over-state this randomness (natural selection is not random per se) but you'd not expect it from a biologist.

Is anyone familiar with PZ's iteration of this argument? Does he perform so poorly that the Rabbi should be calling us up and saying "Your PZ is drunk. Can you send him someone to drive him home?"

PZ sometimes overplays randomness in evolution at the expense of selection (SJ Gould used to do this as well), and IMO he's really gone overboard with it in his recent series against evolutionary psychology.

BUT, I don't see a problem with the driftwood vs. brick wall example, unless that was his entire argument against ID. <gretachristinitis>I can't be arsed to watch the presentation right now</gretachristinitis>, but I doubt it was. He is just making the point that complexity doesn't have to be the result of design, not that biological complexity is equivalent to a random pile of driftwood. (And biological processes are actually a lot 'sloppier' than ID:ers like to admit.)

I'm not racist, but honkies should all be in camps.

Great idea! I love camping!

[BannedAid]

I love how these FTB guys act so hurt any time someone makes a nazi reference, no matter how oblique, because Remember The Holocaust Victims! Bullshit. They don't care about the people the nazis killed, they just want to police language so that nobody can ever make an unfavorable analogy about them. In fact, they're being real nazis about it.

[Bhurzum]

Ana Kasparian responds to Tf00ts video.

[Trophy]

And said he should have stood up to them when they attacked others as Pastor Niemoller wrote about his experiences with NAZIs.

Yes I get that but that's why I strongly disagree and still believe it's a rookie mistake.

To date, I have stayed out of this witch hunt against our most prominent leaders, thinking that “this too shall pass.” Perhaps I should have said something earlier. As Martin Niemöller famously warned about the inactivity of German intellectuals during the rise of the Nazi party, “first they came for ...” but “I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a....”

That's what he writes and it's still ridiculous. Nazis came to kill, murder, and imprison. Forget about comparison, it's ridiculous to even mention it in the little kerfuffle in the little atheist blogsphere. And it is still a rookie mistake. Just watch the daily show. Everytime someone uses this little overused line to comment on some political regulation or what not, Jon Stewart has a field day. In fact, this line is such a big cliche that the standard rebuttal of laughing at it and saying that it's a ridiculous comparison (as demonstrated by PZ) is itself a cliche.

[Cunning Punt]

Doing a bit of further research, I found this: http://www.algemeiner.com/2011/05/29/se ... p-z-myers/

(It's sometimes fun to google "PZ Myers discredited"). And I found this.

If the Rabbi's statement of PZ's argument is accurate, then PZ did a very good job of straw-manning atheistic arguments about design (including suggesting that evolution is a wholly random process when it is in fact the combination of randomness PLUS NATURAL SELECTION, which by its nature is not random but selective). Lay atheists sometimes tend to over-state this randomness (natural selection is not random per se) but you'd not expect it from a biologist.

Is anyone familiar with PZ's iteration of this argument? Does he perform so poorly that the Rabbi should be calling us up and saying "Your PZ is drunk. Can you send him someone to drive him home?"

And in answer to the Rabbi's question - yes, yes we are. It's not necessarily related to any point the Rabbi had to make, but we are embarrassed.

I think this article is crap. I'd beware of the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" type of thinking. Just because PZ is a douchebag doesn't mean this guy knows what he's talking about either.

[UnbelieveSteve]

I love Shermer.
Anyway, i wrote up the "Atheism Plus - Periodical Table of Swearing" staring The_Laughing_Coyote.
http://unbelievesteve.wordpress.com/201 ... -swearing/

Haha. Cipher was like that too at the start but seems to have calmed down (or, been given tranquilizers).

You must have searched by username to find your quotes; a search there of "fuck*" turns up 4039 matches. (Not always directed at others there, but a noticeable portion are.)

The coyote's profile came to mind first of all as i remember some poor bastard was getting banned for sweet fuck all, and i really mean fuck all.
Sweetpea Coyote was there to lend a hand with a few "fuck you" chucked in for good measure.

But it amazed me this jack off was never pulled up for his abusive rants. So, seeing as he's so proud of his work at Atheismplus, i thought i'd share it with. . . everyone.

[John Brown]

Our movement has been largely white, predominately because it was only interested in “white people’s problems,” and thus uninterested in anyone else’s (and thus not attracting their interest in turn). Things like UFOs, Big Foot, homeopathy, and pseudoscience as a whole on the one end, and theology and other esoteric matters of history and philosophy on the other end, are not unimportant, but they are the luxuries of people who don’t have to worry so much about crime or poverty or such things as subtle institutional racism or economic injustice.

According to Carrier, if you're not white, you're poor and live in a crime-ridden area, right? Fucking asshole.
I've said it before, but it bears repeating. I'm Colombian, that makes me hispanic, and non-white in Carrier's view. I don't live in the US, which probably doesn't make me part of the demographic Carrier is talking about, but I'm not poor and I don't give a fuck about crime. And I know there are a lot of hispanic, black or whatever non-white color you'd like who are not poor either.
I'm a skeptic, and UFOs, Big Foot, Homeopathy and pseudoscience interest me, and I like reading about it and talking about it. You don't need to dumb shit down in order to get me or other "minorities" interested.

As with everything else coming out of those circles, this is also incredibly classist in its outlook.

White people don't have to worry about "crime or poverty or such things as subtle institutional racism or economic injustice?"

Well, maybe not if your Richard Motherfucking Carrier, but it might surprise him to know that there are millions of poor white people in this country who deal with crime, economic injustice and institutionalized classism on a daily basis.

This is how people like Richard Carrier operate:

All white people below his economic station in life are invisible.
All non-white people need to be saved by him and people like them, cause those brown people don't know how bad they have it.

Fuck Richard Carrier.

[Pitchguest]

Seems Ophelia can't stop assuming people who disagree with her are Slymepitters. Dishonest to the last.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterflies ... ent-418701

No, slime pitter, I did not “compare TAM to Nazi Germany.” That’s a lie that you people have been spreading around. I wasn’t talking about TAM, I was talking about DJ Grothe. I said his blaming women for talking about harassment was like blaming Jews for speaking out in 1936 Germany. I also withdrew that, because I agreed that it was an overstatement. But withdrawn or not, it’s not comparing TAM to Nazi Germany. Tell the truth for once.

Speaking of which, she's still unable to admit she made the comparison. And it just beggars the boundaries of a conscious mind when she claims it's a lie when it's clear as crystal. Oh, and the bolded part: hilarious.

[papillon]

There once was a wanker named Carrier
Who tried to erect a big barrier
Between pitters and plus
The "them" and the "us"
When what Jen really needs is a farrier

I know, I wasn't going to go there.....

Pity our poor Richard Carrier
Who fancies himself quite the harrier
he growls and he bites,
but try as he might
He's never to be really scarier

:) - Putting the poe back into poetry...

Carrier,
Intellectual artillery
Readied for battle,
..Dickwad.

[Tigzy]

Just leaving my response to this:

Richard Carrier

January 15, 2013 at 10:53 am (UTC -8)

Really? You do realize that’s [Jen's tweet about Richard Carrier being a bit shit for Atheism Plus]old news, right? That I took the criticism to heart and improved my handling of the matter (in several comments and follow-up blog posts) and made sure Jen and I were on the same page with my second Atheism+ post? And this was all resolved almost half a year ago?

Because, if you don’t know all that, then YFW.

So, no, I’m not going to stop advocating for Atheism+ just because someone who can’t keep up with current events doesn’t like that I do.

...here, in case it disappears from moderation:

'Can't keep up with current events?' LMAO

Richard, Jen's tweet is dated 26th Aug 2012

Your clarifications, as regards the use of ablist slurs etc. - 'The Art of the Insult & The Sin of the Slur' - was written on the 24th Aug 2012

So - either Jen missed your follow-up post, and was therefore someone who also can't keep up with current events, or she read it but remained unimpressed. Course, she could have made a follow-up tweet to clarify that she nows feels that a middle-aged white male intellectual such as yourself is indeed a valuable and much-needed voice in this effort to attract more minorities and marginalised people into the Atheist fold. But if I missed it, then put it down to me not being diligent enough to see it - I mean, I wouldn't want to bear the sin of following this too diligently, because some FTBers such as Stephanie Zvan consider that cyber-stalking.

[comslave]

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/imag ... 5WHv3tvH8R

I have that film.

It's great if you turn off the sound and just stare at Ann Francis.

[Eucliwood]

Seems Ophelia can't stop assuming people who disagree with her are Slymepitters. Dishonest to the last.
[spoiler]http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterflies ... ent-418701

No, slime pitter, I did not “compare TAM to Nazi Germany.” That’s a lie that you people have been spreading around. I wasn’t talking about TAM, I was talking about DJ Grothe. I said his blaming women for talking about harassment was like blaming Jews for speaking out in 1936 Germany. I also withdrew that, because I agreed that it was an overstatement. But withdrawn or not, it’s not comparing TAM to Nazi Germany. Tell the truth for once.

[/spoiler]

Speaking of which, she's still unable to admit she made the comparison. And it just beggars the boundaries of a conscious mind when she claims it's a lie when it's clear as crystal. Oh, and the bolded part: hilarious.

To be honest, in this case, she didn't compare TAM to Nazi Germany. You're extending her analogy.
"...when, while arguing a general rule, a comparison is made between a single aspect of two situations, and a reply treats it as a claim the two are directly analogous to each other. For example
"I do not support the use of cracks to bypass copy protection, regardless of my opposition to copy protection. I believe it is always wrong to oppose the law by breaking it."
"Such a position is odious: it implies that you would not have supported Martin Luther King."
"Are you saying that software piracy is as important as the struggle for Black liberation? How dare you!"

What she did compare was blaming women for talking about harassment and blaming Jews for speaking out. That's what you can accuse her of - exactly what she did. If it doesn't sound bad enough phrased exactly as it is, then maybe it's not. This doesn't even imply that harassment is as bad as what happened to Jews. I'm glad she said it was an overstatement. When people compare two things, it's best to take it for what was said.

[Skep tickle]

I am still a student - graduate level at Marywood University. Yes, unfortunatly these conferences can be expensive when considering travel, hotel especially.

Registration is fairly cheap for students. Shall we inquire of Melody whether you'd be allowed to attend?

I'd been envisioning the "try to slip in under the radar" approach, but actually asking ahead of time has some benefits.

First, it could potentially save JFV a wasted trip to DC & nonrefundable expenses if he were to get there & not be let in. (Though I suspect he'd actually turn it into lemonade - interview people outside the conference about some topic, oh say how they define "feminist", then turn it into a video.)

Second, if she said that he wouldn't be allowed to attend, there'd be an interesting opportunity to work down a list (whether or not others were considering attending) - though I suspect this is not what you had in mind.

You suspect incorrectly, this is *PRECISELY* what I have in mind. It's win-win. Either Justin gets to go and report on it, or else we find out how far Melody is willing to go in her blacklisting efforts.

Damion Reinhardt
Lifetime Friend of the Center
(Melody, if you're reading this, please look me up and drop me a line.)

Excellent.

[comslave]

I think y'all know what to do with this:

Taiwan confiscates 435 dog penises

Those poor dogs.

[Zenspace]

While I like most of Shermer's article, any mention of nazis is ridiculous and a rookie mistake. Ridiculous because it's a disproportionate comparison and the same argument can be made easily without blowing it up with hyperbole and a rookie mistake because you just hand in your opponent the key to cherry-pick and ridicule your argument.

It's far more effective to call Ophelia's attack dishonest, out of context, and misleading because that's exactly what it was.

I would normally agree 100% with you here (Godwin's Law and all that), but I would give Shermer a pass in this context. The 'then they came for me' meme is pretty much universally known within post WWII Western culture. Shermer is, no doubt, aware of this salient fact. It has the advantage immediate, universal recognition and, almost certainly, an immediate and inherently strong visceral response from the reader. The message and context are absolute clear and unmistakeable. The reader relates to Shermer's positioning instantly and without equivocation. In this application, it is absolutely the strongest and clearest way to make that point. Any other choice would reduce the importance of this very pertinent point. In fact, I'll give him more than a pass, I applaud the choice.

Note that he makes no accusation regarding any direct relationship between the perpetrators of the original historical crimes and any modern person. Rather, he uses one of the worst known historical events of unfair persecution and uses that example to highlight his own thought processes and reasoning behind his sudden change of position from passive to active. Given the similarities of the historical events and the modern events, at least in their earlier stage manifestations, his point is perfectly made.

Of course, all OB, FtB and company see is 'Nazi' without the vital (and accurate) context and off they go with their 'I'm a victim!! Pity me!' bullshit.

[Skeptic_Duh]

Here is another example of the "skeptic" PZ myers in action.

He posts a blurb about this:

After admitting that the Muslims in the UK, at least, were a little bit better than the Christian fundamentalists in the US, look what Turkey has gone and done.

The Scientific and Technical Research Council of Turkey (TÃœBÄ°TAK) has put a stop to the publication and sale of all books in its archives that support the theory of evolution, daily Radikal has reported.

Where once Turkey had the pride of being one of the most secular Islamic nations, they’ve now fallen far.

Wonder if he will withdraw his damnation of Turkey?

The Scientific and Technical Research Council of Turkey (TÜBİTAK) has strongly denied reports that it has stopped printing books on evolution, saying the claims were “black propaganda” against their institution.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkis ... sCatID=374

[comslave]

I'm racist. I fucking hate honkies.

One of them self-hating crackers.

I'm not racist, but honkies should all be in camps.

I'm not racist, I hate everybody.

[ReneeHendricks]

While I like most of Shermer's article, any mention of nazis is ridiculous and a rookie mistake. Ridiculous because it's a disproportionate comparison and the same argument can be made easily without blowing it up with hyperbole and a rookie mistake because you just hand in your opponent the key to cherry-pick and ridicule your argument.

It's far more effective to call Ophelia's attack dishonest, out of context, and misleading because that's exactly what it was.

I would normally agree 100% with you here (Godwin's Law and all that), but I would give Shermer a pass in this context. The 'then they came for me' meme is pretty much universally known within post WWII Western culture. Shermer is, no doubt, aware of this salient fact. It has the advantage immediate, universal recognition and, almost certainly, an immediate and inherently strong visceral response from the reader. The message and context are absolute clear and unmistakeable. The reader relates to Shermer's positioning instantly and without equivocation. In this application, it is absolutely the strongest and clearest way to make that point. Any other choice would reduce the importance of this very pertinent point. In fact, I'll give him more than a pass, I applaud the choice.

Note that he makes no accusation regarding any direct relationship between the perpetrators of the original historical crimes and any modern person. Rather, he uses one of the worst known historical events of unfair persecution and uses that example to highlight his own thought processes and reasoning behind his sudden change of position from passive to active. Given the similarities of the historical events and the modern events, at least in their earlier stage manifestations, his point is perfectly made.

Of course, all OB, FtB and company see is 'Nazi' without the vital (and accurate) context and off they go with their 'I'm a victim!! Pity me!' bullshit.

Thank you! That's exactly how I read Shermer's usage of that particular line. I was going to say that it amazes me that OB has clearly misread it. But then, we're talking about OB here.

[Remick]

Here is another example of the "skeptic" PZ myers in action.

He posts a blurb about this:

After admitting that the Muslims in the UK, at least, were a little bit better than the Christian fundamentalists in the US, look what Turkey has gone and done.

The Scientific and Technical Research Council of Turkey (TÃœBÄ°TAK) has put a stop to the publication and sale of all books in its archives that support the theory of evolution, daily Radikal has reported.

Where once Turkey had the pride of being one of the most secular Islamic nations, they’ve now fallen far.

Wonder if he will withdraw his damnation of Turkey?

The Scientific and Technical Research Council of Turkey (TÜBİTAK) has strongly denied reports that it has stopped printing books on evolution, saying the claims were “black propaganda” against their institution.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkis ... sCatID=374

You can't possibly expect PZ to do more than read the headline (as shown in his latest anti-Tf00t post), nevermind look into the claim on his own.
He has a pretty full plate:
1) "Writing" a "book"
2) teaching
3) saving the women of the world because they can't save themselves.

[Tigzy]

TL;DR version: Carrier is a fucking racist and I have found more racism in his posts and in other FTB posts than in the SlymePit.

Want another good example of Dr Carrier's racism? How about this:

Richard Carrier

August 23, 2012 at 7:07 pm (UTC -8)

Douchebag is not a sexist word.

Making enemies of douchebags is necessary.

And my dick is of exactly average size for a Caucasian male.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/arc ... ment-20576

BTW - the 'Dark Lord of the Sith' calling him out on it in the subsequent comments is me. I figured I'd go with a Star Wars nym theme that day, owing to Carrier's assertion that those not with his particular brand of Good Atheism are part of 'the darkside'.

[Mykeru]

people who are genuinely toxic and harmful to the progress of good human values ought to be marginalized.
--Richard "average caucasian penis" Carrier

Well, thanks for permission, Dick. That's exactly what we are doing. Of course, you don't see yourself as a toxic person. Isn't that always the way?

[comslave]

There once was a wanker named Carrier
Who tried to erect a big barrier
Between pitters and plus
The "them" and the "us"
When what Jen really needs is a farrier

I know, I wasn't going to go there.....

Pity our poor Richard Carrier
Who fancies himself quite the harrier
he growls and he bites,
but try as he might
He's never to be really scarier

:) - Putting the poe back into poetry...

Carrier,
Intellectual artillery
Readied for battle,
..Dickwad.

Let me tell you about Richard the cunt,
Who is really a sickening runt,
He tried to push us into A+
But try as he must,
We're putting an end to this stunt.

[HoneyWagon]

Was sent this. I would like to know more about it as it looks wonderful and I am sure with be full of facts and rational thought.

http://i47.tinypic.com/lumx5.png

[John Brown]

It's been my experience that the people who talk loudest about "class" and "race" are some of the most classist, racist people I've ever run across.

[fascination]

About "Monopad Man" (I won't put his real name here as I feel that he has suffered enough from this IMO), he was a well known TAM attendee and former Jref forum member. From my understanding, he is somewhere on the Autism spectrum. I know that Watson called him "creepy" on FB while they were trying to drag his name through the mud. However, there is a picture of a Skepchick with him in a humorous pose on a very popular anti Watson blog. They look like they were friendly and on good terms. Although, this particular Skepchick wasn't Watson.
I am not aware of Ashley Miller being involved in this incident. The women who were involved have never been publicly named as far as I am aware of( there were two). I find this ironic considering that Monopad man's online nym, pic and real name are easy to find. No one made any attempt to keep his identity a secret. I think that both parties should have been given anonymity or not at all.

[Outwest]

It's been my experience that the people who talk loudest about "class" and "race" are some of the most classist, racist people I've ever run across.

Well, Carrier has this "us vs "them" mindset about the "True Believers" (A+), why wouldn't it apply to other races, ethnic groups, etc. ?

[lost control]

How many open-shirted, gold chain wearing disco clowns do they need to be reminded of?

I'm thinking just one:

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd24 ... 82f4e1.jpg

*runs*

How Phil manages to look anything like a mean, bad ass metal head is beyond me, I've got the impression he's quite the cuddly type.
(I remember the kitten on the shoulder avatar)

Nice promo shot, Phil.

[Dilurk]

While I like most of Shermer's article, any mention of nazis is ridiculous and a rookie mistake. Ridiculous because it's a disproportionate comparison and the same argument can be made easily without blowing it up with hyperbole and a rookie mistake because you just hand in your opponent the key to cherry-pick and ridicule your argument.

It's far more effective to call Ophelia's attack dishonest, out of context, and misleading because that's exactly what it was.

I would normally agree 100% with you here (Godwin's Law and all that), but I would give Shermer a pass in this context. The 'then they came for me' meme is pretty much universally known within post WWII Western culture. Shermer is, no doubt, aware of this salient fact. It has the advantage immediate, universal recognition and, almost certainly, an immediate and inherently strong visceral response from the reader. The message and context are absolute clear and unmistakeable. The reader relates to Shermer's positioning instantly and without equivocation. In this application, it is absolutely the strongest and clearest way to make that point. Any other choice would reduce the importance of this very pertinent point. In fact, I'll give him more than a pass, I applaud the choice.

Note that he makes no accusation regarding any direct relationship between the perpetrators of the original historical crimes and any modern person. Rather, he uses one of the worst known historical events of unfair persecution and uses that example to highlight his own thought processes and reasoning behind his sudden change of position from passive to active. Given the similarities of the historical events and the modern events, at least in their earlier stage manifestations, his point is perfectly made.

Of course, all OB, FtB and company see is 'Nazi' without the vital (and accurate) context and off they go with their 'I'm a victim!! Pity me!' bullshit.

Thank you! That's exactly how I read Shermer's usage of that particular line. I was going to say that it amazes me that OB has clearly misread it. But then, we're talking about OB here.

It would be best if both sides here took a charitable view here. Ok so Ophelia godwin'ed I'll take her at her word that it was not meant that way. But then Ophelia should be willing to accept Shermer did not mean a godwin either. What's good for the goose is good for the gander as they say.

Can we both just move on? It's a waste of time.

[Tigzy]

It's been my experience that the people who talk loudest about "class" and "race" are some of the most classist, racist people I've ever run across.

Same with those guys who go on about sexism a lot, too. I recall this very vocal feminist college professor - went up on stage one time, and asked a woman from the audience to join him...

[Mykeru]

http://en.valka.cz/files/amagi_793.jpg

Richard Carrier

[lost control]

They aren't reacting to it just because it's a torso. The victorian level of priggishness comparison doesn't apply. They're reacting because it's a bloody torso that's obviously been dismembered yet still presented by an asshole marketing department as something sexy.

It applies well, mate. There's nothing that makes it sexy, except the dirty mind of the onlooker. Remove the bikini and it would conceivably be perceived as sexier or less compliant to accepted standards of decency. Add more clothes and it would be too unrealistic a depiction of a dismembered body.

Either way, you have someone alien to the creative process dictating how a work of (dubious) art should look like. Since we are talking about a fucking ZOMBIE game, the souvenir is absolutely appropriate.
If Peezus and some gamers don't like the genre, they can as well stay the fuck out and stop attributing magic properties to a subject, once it breaks out the screen and it is turned into a three-dimensional object, which is substantial identical to its virtual counterparts.

Either that, or they could as well be covering table legs out of perceived sexiness.

I won't buy the game, as I simply don't get around to actually play anything any longer (fuck me, I still haven't finished GTA IV), but seeing how the prudes react, I know want a torso like that. Maybe with boobs that are a little less looking like they're silicone enhanced (I respect the choice of anyone modifying their body, but it doesn't really meet my aesthetic preferences.) I think my gal would be perfectly fine with dismembered, gory body parts that at least remotely resemble long-gone art. That would be a nice compromise, as she isn't actually to happy about me mentioning that some day I want a plastic mannequin as wardrobe. Yeah, I'd go for a female shape first, but I forgot to mention that I'd also get a male one for her.
Hah, a revisit of the topic is in order on the weekend.

[Michael J]

[spoiler]

Has anyone here noticed Richard Carrier's current post on his blog at FTB titled "Atheism+ : The Name for What’s Happening"?

He seems concerned that the "haters" might be the majority among atheists/skeptics, admits in the comments that he doesn't follow the A+ forum, displays considerable hostility toward opponents, and generally goes on at more length than I feel like commenting about at the moment.

He gets a surprising amount of push-back in the comments, but from who?

Carrier complaining about the "anti-feminist" threats and harassment is so divorced from reality, along with his boilerplate acronym responses, that he's hardly worth engaging. Like Dillahunty he has some idealized model of what's happening, but being so very fucking effete, he's never get boots on the ground. But why? How is it that Carrier comes out on his moral high-horse without apparently having a clue what's actually going on, about the reality of the supposed harassment, and thinking the problem in atheism is swarming hordes of misogynists?

To really get Carrier, just read his self-wanking sidebar description:

He has also become a noted defender of scientific and moral realism, Bayesian reasoning, and the epistemology of history.

Bayesian reasoning?

In the case of Bayesian inference, folks like Karl Popper have rejected it because it's inherently non-falsifiable: "It is prone to the same vicious circle as any other justificationist epistemology, because it presupposes what it attempts to justify."

Pre-supposes what it attempts to justify.

Well, there's Richard Carrier in a nutshell.

[/spoiler]
That's the whole problem with Bayes Theorm, you can prove or disprove whatever you want by adjusting assumptions, not facts.
I could prove you don't, and never have, existed.

Not familiar with Popper's criticism but to me Bayes' Theorem simply means updating your probability estimate according to new evidence and I'd dearly like to see what kind of bastardization it requires to accomplish what you claim. What Baeys' Theorem isn't is some magical box that spits out truth if you feed it garbage so you can definitely get some dubious results, but expecting such a magic box isn't reasonable to begin with.

To me History is a series of unlikely events similar to the Butterfly effect in chaos theory. Worse is to apply it to the start of Christianity where there is almost no physical evidence.

However, I have seen Carrier apply it to a few HJ claims and it seems to work and not to be too sensitive to initial assumptions.

[Steersman]

Seems Ophelia can't stop assuming people who disagree with her are Slymepitters. Dishonest to the last.
[spoiler]http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterflies ... ent-418701

No, slime pitter, I did not “compare TAM to Nazi Germany.” That’s a lie that you people have been spreading around. I wasn’t talking about TAM, I was talking about DJ Grothe. I said his blaming women for talking about harassment was like blaming Jews for speaking out in 1936 Germany. I also withdrew that, because I agreed that it was an overstatement. But withdrawn or not, it’s not comparing TAM to Nazi Germany. Tell the truth for once.

[/spoiler]

Speaking of which, she's still unable to admit she made the comparison. And it just beggars the boundaries of a conscious mind when she claims it's a lie when it's clear as crystal. Oh, and the bolded part: hilarious.

To be honest, in this case, she didn't compare TAM to Nazi Germany. You're extending her analogy.
"...when, while arguing a general rule, a comparison is made between a single aspect of two situations, and a reply treats it as a claim the two are directly analogous to each other. For example
"I do not support the use of cracks to bypass copy protection, regardless of my opposition to copy protection. I believe it is always wrong to oppose the law by breaking it."
"Such a position is odious: it implies that you would not have supported Martin Luther King."
"Are you saying that software piracy is as important as the struggle for Black liberation? How dare you!"

What she did compare was blaming women for talking about harassment and blaming Jews for speaking out. That's what you can accuse her of - exactly what she did. If it doesn't sound bad enough phrased exactly as it is, then maybe it's not. This doesn't even imply that harassment is as bad as what happened to Jews. I'm glad she said it was an overstatement. When people compare two things, it's best to take it for what was said.

Very good post Eucliwood – quite informative, well-phrased, and I generally agree, although you could have added a link to the source you were apparently quoting from. But somewhat along the same line as an earlier post of mine on the nature and limitations of analogies.

But I wonder, if “we” are able to concede that Ophelia wasn’t actually arguing that D.J. Grothe was Hitler and Nazism – personified – and that TAM didn’t have designs on Poland then is it likely that she and the rest of the FfTB horde can concede that Shermer wasn’t actually making the same type of allusions or suggestions ….

[Parge]

I'm racist. I fucking hate honkies.

One of them self-hating crackers.

I'm not racist, but honkies should all be in camps.

I went to honkey camp when I was a kid. I learned how to make a lanyard.

[Michael J]

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... l-shermer/

"Shermer...’s being left behind if he thinks a skeptic shouldn’t be criticized. I’m hoping, though, that he’ll snap out of this and realize that he ought to be embarrassed by the laughable accusations he makes."

SOMEONE CALL PZ. Someone has clearly stolen his password for his blog and is making very silly and obvious parodies of PZ.

THIS IS REALLY MEAN, GUYS. STOP EMBARRASSING PZ WITH YOUR OBVIOUS MOCKERY.

The great thing is that anyone neutral going to FTB from Shermer's calm and well reasoned article will just find histrionics. Somebody said that these guys are cunning but I can't just see it at all. I think that either they are insane or somehow think that they are the atheist movement and are untouchable.

To me the intelligent thing to do would be to try to be "better than them", that is us. If they wrote posts that took Shermer's points and countered them one by one then it would be a sign saying "Hey look how calm and rational we are and look how Shermer is wrong". Instead they prove Shermer's point by attacking him.

It will be the same with Vacula. The short term joy of banning Justin will certainly outweigh the long term advantage of seeming to be open to criticism and dialog.

[lost control]

Aww, I like Steersman. I don't understand why they thought he'd be over there to defend Shermer, though. Is Steersman a big Shermer fan?

Steersman is a dick.

Tell us how you really feel Mykeru, lol

Steersman is a disingenuous, time wasting, pompous sack of dicks.

He can be kinda boring, but at least he's not a colon. Far from it. And at times he's somewhat interesting, unlike myself, who's always way too late and babbling incoherent shit due to me only getting the nerve to actually post when I've had more than 3 or 4 beers, minimum. Well, I blame my schizoid personality, just shy below the threshold of actual disorder diagnosis.
For some weird, uncomprehensible reason I've so far only ignored the mabus instances.
Anyway, that reminds me that I'm wondering, why Lsuoma hasn't more issues containing mabus dreck? What happened?

And, I still wonder, how old Eucliwood actually is. Dear, would you be so nice to at least hint at your age range? I suspect late teens, but sometimes you come of a bit older. Didn't you say something about having kids? Or am I misremembering due to being drunk a lot during the week, cause I can't be at home preparing breakfast and cooking for my gal?

[welch]

Seems Ophelia can't stop assuming people who disagree with her are Slymepitters. Dishonest to the last.
[spoiler]http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterflies ... ent-418701

No, slime pitter, I did not “compare TAM to Nazi Germany.” That’s a lie that you people have been spreading around. I wasn’t talking about TAM, I was talking about DJ Grothe. I said his blaming women for talking about harassment was like blaming Jews for speaking out in 1936 Germany. I also withdrew that, because I agreed that it was an overstatement. But withdrawn or not, it’s not comparing TAM to Nazi Germany. Tell the truth for once.

[/spoiler]

Speaking of which, she's still unable to admit she made the comparison. And it just beggars the boundaries of a conscious mind when she claims it's a lie when it's clear as crystal. Oh, and the bolded part: hilarious.

To be honest, in this case, she didn't compare TAM to Nazi Germany. You're extending her analogy.
"...when, while arguing a general rule, a comparison is made between a single aspect of two situations, and a reply treats it as a claim the two are directly analogous to each other. For example
"I do not support the use of cracks to bypass copy protection, regardless of my opposition to copy protection. I believe it is always wrong to oppose the law by breaking it."
"Such a position is odious: it implies that you would not have supported Martin Luther King."
"Are you saying that software piracy is as important as the struggle for Black liberation? How dare you!"

What she did compare was blaming women for talking about harassment and blaming Jews for speaking out. That's what you can accuse her of - exactly what she did. If it doesn't sound bad enough phrased exactly as it is, then maybe it's not. This doesn't even imply that harassment is as bad as what happened to Jews. I'm glad she said it was an overstatement. When people compare two things, it's best to take it for what was said.

Very good post Eucliwood – quite informative, well-phrased, and I generally agree, although you could have added a link to the source you were apparently quoting from. But somewhat along the same line as an earlier post of mine on the nature and limitations of analogies.

But I wonder, if “we” are able to concede that Ophelia wasn’t actually arguing that D.J. Grothe was Hitler and Nazism – personified – and that TAM didn’t have designs on Poland then is it likely that she and the rest of the FfTB horde can concede that Shermer wasn’t actually making the same type of allusions or suggestions ….

well, that's the larger point isn't it? That if ophelia wants her referencing of OMG NAZIS to not be taken in the worst possible way, then she can't pull that shit on Shermer and not be called a hypocrite. As you say, if she wants a concession advantageous to her, she needs to make a similar one for Shermer.

[welch]

I'm racist. I fucking hate honkies.

One of them self-hating crackers.

I'm not racist, but honkies should all be in camps.

I went to honkey camp when I was a kid. I learned how to make a lanyard.

Fucking Honkies and their lanyards.

[ReneeHendricks]

[spoiler]

While I like most of Shermer's article, any mention of nazis is ridiculous and a rookie mistake. Ridiculous because it's a disproportionate comparison and the same argument can be made easily without blowing it up with hyperbole and a rookie mistake because you just hand in your opponent the key to cherry-pick and ridicule your argument.

It's far more effective to call Ophelia's attack dishonest, out of context, and misleading because that's exactly what it was.

I would normally agree 100% with you here (Godwin's Law and all that), but I would give Shermer a pass in this context. The 'then they came for me' meme is pretty much universally known within post WWII Western culture. Shermer is, no doubt, aware of this salient fact. It has the advantage immediate, universal recognition and, almost certainly, an immediate and inherently strong visceral response from the reader. The message and context are absolute clear and unmistakeable. The reader relates to Shermer's positioning instantly and without equivocation. In this application, it is absolutely the strongest and clearest way to make that point. Any other choice would reduce the importance of this very pertinent point. In fact, I'll give him more than a pass, I applaud the choice.

Note that he makes no accusation regarding any direct relationship between the perpetrators of the original historical crimes and any modern person. Rather, he uses one of the worst known historical events of unfair persecution and uses that example to highlight his own thought processes and reasoning behind his sudden change of position from passive to active. Given the similarities of the historical events and the modern events, at least in their earlier stage manifestations, his point is perfectly made.

Of course, all OB, FtB and company see is 'Nazi' without the vital (and accurate) context and off they go with their 'I'm a victim!! Pity me!' bullshit.

Thank you! That's exactly how I read Shermer's usage of that particular line. I was going to say that it amazes me that OB has clearly misread it. But then, we're talking about OB here.

[/spoiler]

It would be best if both sides here took a charitable view here. Ok so Ophelia godwin'ed I'll take her at her word that it was not meant that way. But then Ophelia should be willing to accept Shermer did not mean a godwin either. What's good for the goose is good for the gander as they say.

Can we both just move on? It's a waste of time.

We're supposed to be "charitable" and "move on"? Last time I checked, this was an area to showcase the idiocy that is rife within FfTB and A+. My whole point with Ophelia is that she took a line, completely misread it, then went on a "woe is me, I'm a victim" kind of rampage. I take issue with this crap because unsuspecting people new in the atheist/skeptical community look toward people like Ophelia for a sense of sanity, logic, and reason within that community. When they can't even be bothered to actually comprehend the shit their reading and don on their professional victim gear at every corner, shouldn't we continue to shine a light on the hypocrisy?

Yeah, for the record, I won't be charitable and I won't move on.

[ThreeFlangedJavis]

It would be best if both sides here took a charitable view here. Ok so Ophelia godwin'ed I'll take her at her word that it was not meant that way. But then Ophelia should be willing to accept Shermer did not mean a godwin either. What's good for the goose is good for the gander as they say.

Can we both just move on? It's a waste of time.

Don't care what Benson meant. I'll grant that it's unlikely she meant to pull a Godwin, but then all she had to do was admit that she had unintentionally done so through with her piss-poor writing. Being Ophelia though, she chose to torture logic trying to deny it.

[lost control]

Is Ophelia Benson memory-holing comments again? I see responses to comments that are no longer there.

She really loves banning and purging, doesn't she? Pressing that delete button must give her an adrenaline kick.

What a sad, small-minded person.

Ophelia Benson is a (pick one)

Neither, in a way she doesn't even qualify for cunt. Way too generous for her. Cunts at least have the potential to be a great feature of a person, even when the person's being fucking obnoxious. OB is just hopeless, in a way.

Well, I'd gladly buy panty liners, tampons, what have you, but I swear, I'll never be able to pick up one pack of these for any 'lady in need' anymore upon request for that specific brand without starting to burst out laughing my ass off, and getting the whole store to notice me. Not that I mind getting noticed for buying personal hygiene products, but I'd have a hard time to not come off as a complete lunatic, when dropping to the floor because of laughter after putting those down for the cashier to scan. So, this brand will no longer be bought by me:
http://pics2.ds-static.com/prodimg/27890/300.jpg.

Yes, childish, but after the recent change of the FfTB logo, I just can't avoid that connection in my head any longer.

[fascination]

Hi all,

New to the slymepit and thought I would take your votes on an avatar. I took both of these at the zoo.

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t12/ ... d95225.jpg

or

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t12/ ... 447ff9.jpg

I am kinda partial to the second one, but the eyes of the first just draw me in. Let me know what you think.

Mzone

Hello and welcome to the Pit! I would go with the first picture.

[Al Stefanelli]

How many open-shirted, gold chain wearing disco clowns do they need to be reminded of?

I'm thinking just one:

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd24 ... 82f4e1.jpg

*runs*

How Phil manages to look anything like a mean, bad ass metal head is beyond me, I've got the impression he's quite the cuddly type.
(I remember the kitten on the shoulder avatar)

Nice promo shot, Phil.

One can never have enough gold chains

http://www.alstefanelli.com/pimpin.jpg

[lost control]

Aw, I love you too, cupcake ….

Amazing how the people one would least expect to express some umbrage over some questioning of “conventional wisdom” turn out to be the ones most with their nose bent out of shape by it. But maybe none of us squawk until it’s our own ox that’s being gored ….

Strange, I just posted that I can't compare you to colon, but now you're exhibiting certain colonesque tendencies?

Well, goes to show me, I shouldn't PUI.

But seriously, that first sentence could have been written by colon as well...

Still, I notice your use of cupcake, so you're not as bent out of your shape as when you appeared.

[comslave]

How many open-shirted, gold chain wearing disco clowns do they need to be reminded of?

I'm thinking just one:

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd24 ... 82f4e1.jpg

*runs*

How Phil manages to look anything like a mean, bad ass metal head is beyond me, I've got the impression he's quite the cuddly type.
(I remember the kitten on the shoulder avatar)

Nice promo shot, Phil.

One can never have enough gold chains

http://www.alstefanelli.com/pimpin.jpg

Pimpin'

[ReneeHendricks]

One can never have enough gold chains

http://www.alstefanelli.com/pimpin.jpg

Um....

DAMN! F'ing hot, both!

[Al Stefanelli]

One can never have enough gold chains

http://www.alstefanelli.com/pimpin.jpg

Um....

DAMN! F'ing hot, both!

Ha, thanks! That was Halloween about two years ago, maybe three. I was a pimp, she was my 'ho.' Her idea, by the way. I wanted to go as an electrical outlet. Lmfao.

[dazhbog]

http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterflies ... -explains/

Please see for an actual wording.

First, Watson wrote on TAM:

I should apparently put on a smile and pretend it doesn’t happen, because by reporting on my treatment, I am creating “a climate where women — who otherwise wouldn’t — end up feeling unwelcome and unsafe.”

Then, Benson continues:

As Jews in Germany circa 1936 might have created “a climate where Jews — who otherwise wouldn’t — end up feeling unwelcome and unsafe.”

I know it doesn't matter anymore, but I'm fuming when I see attempts to change the history.

[another lurker]

Al Stefanelli wrote:

Ha, thanks! That was Halloween about two years ago, maybe three. I was a pimp, she was my 'ho.' Her idea, by the way. I wanted to go as an electrical outlet. Lmfao.

Oh man. I can see A+ heads exploding now. A PIMP AND AH O!!! MISOGYNIST111!!!111!!!!

[Altair]

Al Stefanelli wrote:

Ha, thanks! That was Halloween about two years ago, maybe three. I was a pimp, she was my 'ho.' Her idea, by the way. I wanted to go as an electrical outlet. Lmfao.

Oh man. I can see A+ heads exploding now. A PIMP AND AH O!!! MISOGYNIST111!!!111!!!!

And it was HER idea! Al is a master brainwasher who has forced her to internalize society's rampant misogyny. Or maybe she's a cool person with a sense of humor, who knows ;)

[LMU]

I'm racist. I fucking hate honkies.

One of them self-hating crackers.

I'm not racist, but honkies should all be in camps.

I went to honkey camp when I was a kid. I learned how to make a lanyard.

I just noticed your trouble with tribbles avatar and it's forced me to ask myself a difficult question: are tribbles racist?

[lost control]

Do you get it now or should I write it in Spanish, cabrón?

:lol: :lol: :lol:

I've noticed that those who can only speak one language are the first to cast aspersions on those who can speak many, albeit imperfectly.

Sadly, I only manage to rape two languages. Eight years of French lessons have sadly gone down the drain.
I contemplate renaming cunt kick to Fotzentritt. What would the Prune think of it?

[JayTeeAitch]

Ana Kasparian responds to Tf00ts video.

Wow, looks like he could get himself an invite to the Young Turks show!

[Mr Danksworth]

Al Stefanelli wrote:

Ha, thanks! That was Halloween about two years ago, maybe three. I was a pimp, she was my 'ho.' Her idea, by the way. I wanted to go as an electrical outlet. Lmfao.

Oh man. I can see A+ heads exploding now. A PIMP AND AH O!!! MISOGYNIST111!!!111!!!!

And it was HER idea! Al is a master brainwasher who has forced her to internalize society's rampant misogyny. Or maybe she's a cool person with a sense of humor, who knows ;)

Hmm, hard to say.

[Pitchguest]

[spoiler]

While I like most of Shermer's article, any mention of nazis is ridiculous and a rookie mistake. Ridiculous because it's a disproportionate comparison and the same argument can be made easily without blowing it up with hyperbole and a rookie mistake because you just hand in your opponent the key to cherry-pick and ridicule your argument.

It's far more effective to call Ophelia's attack dishonest, out of context, and misleading because that's exactly what it was.

I would normally agree 100% with you here (Godwin's Law and all that), but I would give Shermer a pass in this context. The 'then they came for me' meme is pretty much universally known within post WWII Western culture. Shermer is, no doubt, aware of this salient fact. It has the advantage immediate, universal recognition and, almost certainly, an immediate and inherently strong visceral response from the reader. The message and context are absolute clear and unmistakeable. The reader relates to Shermer's positioning instantly and without equivocation. In this application, it is absolutely the strongest and clearest way to make that point. Any other choice would reduce the importance of this very pertinent point. In fact, I'll give him more than a pass, I applaud the choice.

Note that he makes no accusation regarding any direct relationship between the perpetrators of the original historical crimes and any modern person. Rather, he uses one of the worst known historical events of unfair persecution and uses that example to highlight his own thought processes and reasoning behind his sudden change of position from passive to active. Given the similarities of the historical events and the modern events, at least in their earlier stage manifestations, his point is perfectly made.

Of course, all OB, FtB and company see is 'Nazi' without the vital (and accurate) context and off they go with their 'I'm a victim!! Pity me!' bullshit.

Thank you! That's exactly how I read Shermer's usage of that particular line. I was going to say that it amazes me that OB has clearly misread it. But then, we're talking about OB here.

[/spoiler]

It would be best if both sides here took a charitable view here. Ok so Ophelia godwin'ed I'll take her at her word that it was not meant that way. But then Ophelia should be willing to accept Shermer did not mean a godwin either. What's good for the goose is good for the gander as they say.

Can we both just move on? It's a waste of time.

We're supposed to be "charitable" and "move on"? Last time I checked, this was an area to showcase the idiocy that is rife within FfTB and A+. My whole point with Ophelia is that she took a line, completely misread it, then went on a "woe is me, I'm a victim" kind of rampage. I take issue with this crap because unsuspecting people new in the atheist/skeptical community look toward people like Ophelia for a sense of sanity, logic, and reason within that community. When they can't even be bothered to actually comprehend the shit their reading and don on their professional victim gear at every corner, shouldn't we continue to shine a light on the hypocrisy?

Yeah, for the record, I won't be charitable and I won't move on.

If they were able to make concessions in the first place, it wouldn't even be an issue. I'm all for being charitable if they deserve it. In fact, I'm always looking for the option that is more charitable than not, which is probably why I'm still trying to argue with these people. Unlike Benson, Myers, etc, and their commentariat, I haven't thrown in the towel just yet. (Even though I realise more than half of the time it's a lost cause and won't lead to anything constructive.)

But they're not. As a matter of fact, this place exists solely because of their inability to concede and really, it's been their sthick for the past year and a half. Until that time they decide to not make mountains out of molehills from petty squabbles, airing their dirty laundry, then I'm not going to give them an inch - and I think we've been too kind in the face of their bullshit.

[SenorBeagle]

Admittedly, the first time I saw the phrase "lady-science," I figured she meant science strong enough for a man, but pH-balanced for a woman.

Catching up, and apologies if anyone's done this already, but I couldn't help myself...

Lady Science For Her.jpg

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