"God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#362

Post by jimhabegger » Sun Jul 03, 2016 1:36 pm

johnself wrote:Jim, are you a member or otherwise associated with the Bahai fait/organization?
I'm a member of the Baha'i Faith, and a follower of Baha'u'llah and of the Baha'i Universal House of Justice seated on Mount Carmel.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#363

Post by jimhabegger » Sun Jul 03, 2016 4:50 pm

I've been aware for a long time of the Pit's adversaries demonizing white men, but suddenly I'm seeing their behavior revolving around that much more than I had realized. Even their mutual backstabbing is all about demonizing white men.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#364

Post by jimhabegger » Sun Jul 03, 2016 8:28 pm

I see fellowships that revolve around maligning, mocking and muckraking as poisonous to the people in and around them, and to all of society. I've been wondering how people might turn away from that behavior, without breaking up the fellowship. One possible way I see is for people in the fellowship to find other topics for discussion, covering some of the interests of every person in the fellowship, that lead to more healthy discussions.

I see a possibility that the maligning, mocking and muckraking help keep the fellowship from being polluted and vandalized by perverted feminist and social justice interests. If so, the fellowship would need to find some better ways to prevent that.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#365

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sun Jul 03, 2016 8:52 pm

*Sigh*

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#366

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sun Jul 03, 2016 9:00 pm

jimhabegger wrote:I see fellowships that revolve around maligning, mocking and muckraking as poisonous to the people in and around them, and to all of society. I've been wondering how people might turn away from that behavior, without breaking up the fellowship. One possible way I see is for people in the fellowship to find other topics for discussion, covering some of the interests of every person in the fellowship, that lead to more healthy discussions.

I see a possibility that the maligning, mocking and muckraking help keep the fellowship from being polluted and vandalized by perverted feminist and social justice interests. If so, the fellowship would need to find some better ways to prevent that.
Zen teaches the value of humor and mocking.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#367

Post by jimhabegger » Sun Jul 03, 2016 9:04 pm

CaptainFluffyBunny wrote:*Sigh*
Thanks for dropping in! I enjoyed your visit.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#368

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sun Jul 03, 2016 9:05 pm

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#369

Post by jimhabegger » Sun Jul 03, 2016 9:07 pm

CaptainFluffyBunny wrote:
jimhabegger wrote:I see fellowships that revolve around maligning, mocking and muckraking as poisonous to the people in and around them, and to all of society. I've been wondering how people might turn away from that behavior, without breaking up the fellowship. One possible way I see is for people in the fellowship to find other topics for discussion, covering some of the interests of every person in the fellowship, that lead to more healthy discussions.

I see a possibility that the maligning, mocking and muckraking help keep the fellowship from being polluted and vandalized by perverted feminist and social justice interests. If so, the fellowship would need to find some better ways to prevent that.
Zen teaches the value of humor and mocking.
:lol: Yes, I know. I should have qualified it as "malicious mocking."

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#370

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sun Jul 03, 2016 9:08 pm

I shall communicate only with GIFs from now on.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#371

Post by jimhabegger » Sun Jul 03, 2016 9:11 pm

Nourishing and cherishing resentment and hatred. Poisonous, and incapacitating, especially for the people doing it, and most of all when their fellowship revolves around it.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#372

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sun Jul 03, 2016 9:12 pm

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#373

Post by CaptainFluffyBunny » Sun Jul 03, 2016 9:17 pm

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#374

Post by jimhabegger » Sun Jul 03, 2016 9:20 pm

You're fun. You're welcome here any time.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#375

Post by Steersman » Sun Jul 03, 2016 10:22 pm

jimhabegger wrote:I see fellowships that revolve around maligning, mocking and muckraking as poisonous to the people in and around them, and to all of society. I've been wondering how people might turn away from that behavior, without breaking up the fellowship. One possible way I see is for people in the fellowship to find other topics for discussion, covering some of the interests of every person in the fellowship, that lead to more healthy discussions.

I see a possibility that the maligning, mocking and muckraking help keep the fellowship from being polluted and vandalized by perverted feminist and social justice interests. If so, the fellowship would need to find some better ways to prevent that.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#376

Post by jimhabegger » Mon Jul 04, 2016 12:15 am

Actually, I think I got off pretty easy, considering what I did.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#377

Post by jimhabegger » Mon Jul 04, 2016 4:25 pm

fuzzy wrote:I've decided that regarding our acquaintence jimhabegger and I'm inclined to agree with sentiments already expressed that he's somewat of a gotbot of the sort we athiest kids would avoid in the school hallways ...
I have a question about that, that I hope someone will answer.

Lsuoma and the Captain called me a godbot too. After Lsuoma called me that, I had it in my signature for a while, and I had a sock puppet with a "REEPENT!" sign for my avatar.

My question is, what is it about me, that makes me a godbot?

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#378

Post by AndrewV69 » Mon Jul 04, 2016 5:56 pm

jimhabegger wrote:
fuzzy wrote:I've decided that regarding our acquaintence jimhabegger and I'm inclined to agree with sentiments already expressed that he's somewat of a gotbot of the sort we athiest kids would avoid in the school hallways ...
I have a question about that, that I hope someone will answer.

Lsuoma and the Captain called me a godbot too. After Lsuoma called me that, I had it in my signature for a while, and I had a sock puppet with a "REEPENT!" sign for my avatar.

My question is, what is it about me, that makes me a godbot?
My take is that a GodBot is someone who believes in God.

However,

The Urban Dictionary definition
GODBOT: (noun) someone programmed from birth to follow religious leaders' every wish; often indoctrinated in Christian fellowships closed off to free thinkers. Extremely dangerous when church leaders use the GodBots to harm other non-GodBots. GODBOTIC (verb) used to describe the hateful actions perpetuated by Christian people who won't listen to reason or logic. (thanks, Anonymous at Datalounge, whoever you are)
There were maybe 40 godbots on the sidelines with signs threatening us with hell and such.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#379

Post by jimhabegger » Mon Jul 04, 2016 6:28 pm

AndrewV69 wrote:
jimhabegger wrote:My question is, what is it about me, that makes me a godbot?
My take is that a GodBot is someone who believes in God.

However,

The Urban Dictionary definition
GODBOT: (noun) someone programmed from birth to follow religious leaders' every wish; often indoctrinated in Christian fellowships closed off to free thinkers. Extremely dangerous when church leaders use the GodBots to harm other non-GodBots. GODBOTIC (verb) used to describe the hateful actions perpetuated by Christian people who won't listen to reason or logic. (thanks, Anonymous at Datalounge, whoever you are)
There were maybe 40 godbots on the sidelines with signs threatening us with hell and such.
Thanks.

If it's just a synonym for "someone who believes in God," then that answers my question.

If it means what the Urban Dictionary says, then I'm wondering where anyone is getting the idea that I am one.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#380

Post by jimhabegger » Mon Jul 04, 2016 6:30 pm

So, "godbot" doesn't have any commonly understood meaning here?

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#381

Post by jimhabegger » Mon Jul 04, 2016 6:42 pm

Lsuoma called me a godbot. In this post, CaptainFluffyBunny said "You sir, are a godbot," as if that has some commonly understood meaning here. Now fuzzy says "... I'm inclined to agree with sentiments already expressed that he's somewat of a gotbot of the sort we athiest kids would avoid in the school hallways ..." as if that has some commonly understood meaning here. I asked CaptainFluffyBunny and fuzzy what they meant by that, and they haven't answered. Does anyone know what any of them might mean by that?

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#382

Post by jimhabegger » Mon Jul 04, 2016 6:51 pm

This post from Tigzy might help answer my question:

"fatuous oily platitude after fatuous oily platitude"

"Earthworm Jim is pretty much your typically unctuous godbot; dull. Boring."

Although, I still don't see what it has to do with any god.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#383

Post by jimhabegger » Mon Jul 04, 2016 7:11 pm

I'm starting to think that "godbot" doesn't really have any substantive meaning, and is just a way of displaying contempt for someone who doesn't identify as an atheist.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#384

Post by Skep tickle » Mon Jul 04, 2016 10:32 pm

jimhabegger wrote:So, "godbot" doesn't have any commonly understood meaning here?
I don't believe I've ever used the term, including not for you, but I've understood it to refer (not just here but at various atheist sites I've frequented over about 10 years) to people who keep bringing up their religious beliefs (whether overtly evangelizing or not) when that's not the discussion the atheists at that atheist forum were having, nor looking for, nor wanted.

I don't recall seeing it used in forum discussions where the point of the forum (or subforum or thread on a topic) was for atheists & theists to engage in discussion.

AFAICT, theists (US Christians at least) have certain turns of phrase they use when referring to atheists or their assumptions about atheists' positions, so (as is often the case) it goes both ways. ("Lost", "angry at God", etc).

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Re:

#385

Post by jimhabegger » Tue Jul 05, 2016 12:22 am

Skep tickle wrote:
jimhabegger wrote:So, "godbot" doesn't have any commonly understood meaning here?
I don't believe I've ever used the term, including not for you, but I've understood it to refer (not just here but at various atheist sites I've frequented over about 10 years) to people who keep bringing up their religious beliefs (whether overtly evangelizing or not) when that's not the discussion the atheists at that atheist forum were having, nor looking for, nor wanted.

I don't recall seeing it used in forum discussions where the point of the forum (or subforum or thread on a topic) was for atheists & theists to engage in discussion.

AFAICT, theists (US Christians at least) have certain turns of phrase they use when referring to atheists or their assumptions about atheists' positions, so (as is often the case) it goes both ways. ("Lost", "angry at God", etc).
"People who keep bringing up their religious beliefs ..." Of course! That could explain everything. Obvious, actually, now that you put it that way. Thank you!

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#386

Post by d4m10n » Thu Jul 07, 2016 10:39 am

jimhabegger wrote:
AndrewV69 wrote: OK someone else talk to him about this. He has had as much access to the Pew reports as much as we have.
Do you have any other reasons for what you think Muslims think, besides opinion polls?

Does anyone have any other reasons for what you think Muslims think, besides opinion polls?
What more reliable source could there be than one which randomly samples from a large number of Muslims living in Muslim cultures?
I get that it's not a pretty picture, but such is the state of Islam, in the real world.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#387

Post by jimhabegger » Thu Jul 07, 2016 2:35 pm

d4m10n wrote:
jimhabegger wrote:Does anyone have any other reasons for what you think Muslims think, besides opinion polls?
What more reliable source could there be than one which randomly samples from a large number of Muslims living in Muslim cultures?
Thanks for not quoting my Islam post in the Undead thread. Lsuoma doesn't want to see that there any more.

It was not a rhetorical question. It really would interest me to know if anyone has any other reasons for what they think Muslims think, besides opinion polls.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#388

Post by d4m10n » Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:11 pm

My question wasn't rhetorical, either. What sources of information are superior to broad samples from Muslims in Muslim nations?

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#389

Post by jimhabegger » Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:50 pm

d4m10n wrote:My question wasn't rhetorical, either. What sources of information are superior to broad samples from Muslims in Muslim nations?
LOL! If I knew, would I be asking? (That is a rhetorical question.)

I've seen people making statements about what Muslims in various countries, or in the world, think and want, and the only reasons I've seen anyone giving for that are opinion polls. I'm trying to find out if anyone has any other reasons for what they're saying about what Muslims think and want, besides opinion polls.

The only ways I've found to speculate about what Muslims around the world think and want are based only on my own experience with human nature, and what I think is happening around the world. If I wanted to know more, I might browse on the Internet through some Muslim forums, blogs, and other Web sites, and try to spend some time with some Muslims in some Muslim community.

Have you ever seen any empirical evidence for any positive correlation between response frequencies on opinion polls, and response frequencies in the population allegedly being sampled? What reasons do you have for trusting in the honesty and integrity of any sources of opinion polls? Have you ever responded to one, yourself?

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#390

Post by jimhabegger » Thu Jul 07, 2016 4:05 pm

Damion, what reasons do you have for thinking that any of the Muslim opinion polls that people are allegedly quoting in Internet discussions are actually designed and intended to help us understand what Muslims think and want?

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#391

Post by jimhabegger » Thu Jul 07, 2016 4:10 pm

I think that there's just as much corruption in the opinion poll industry as in any other, and I think the Muslim polls are actually designed and intended to misinform us. The Pew research center looks even worse to me than some of the others.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#392

Post by d4m10n » Thu Jul 07, 2016 4:30 pm

Again, Jim, I have to ask.

"Is there a better method for measuring the effects of Islam than asking a random sample of Muslims (reared in Muslim cultures) what they believe about how the world should wor

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#393

Post by d4m10n » Thu Jul 07, 2016 4:30 pm

*k?"

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#394

Post by d4m10n » Thu Jul 07, 2016 4:31 pm

Seriously, Jim. Point me to a better method, and you will have my sincerest thanks.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#395

Post by jimhabegger » Thu Jul 07, 2016 6:25 pm

Damion, please see my post in the Islam and Islamists thread.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#396

Post by Steersman » Thu Jul 07, 2016 6:56 pm

jimhabegger wrote:I think that there's just as much corruption in the opinion poll industry as in any other, and I think the Muslim polls are actually designed and intended to misinform us. The Pew research center looks even worse to me than some of the others.
In your opinion. For which you have precisely and exactly diddly squat in the way of evidence: "don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up" seems to be your refrain - which further confirms your godbot status, with honours. But I wonder where are your results of asking every last Muslim in the world - some 1.2 billion - their thoughts and opinions on various issues. Polls - as I suggested or argued in the Islamist thread - are not perfect - and they are very frequently stipulated as such which you would have known if you'd read any of the statistics articles I referenced there. But they're a damn sight better than your empty blathering, and intellectually dishonest moving of the goal posts.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#397

Post by Kirbmarc » Fri Jul 08, 2016 5:12 am

Steersman wrote:
jimhabegger wrote:I think that there's just as much corruption in the opinion poll industry as in any other, and I think the Muslim polls are actually designed and intended to misinform us. The Pew research center looks even worse to me than some of the others.
In your opinion. For which you have precisely and exactly diddly squat in the way of evidence: "don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up" seems to be your refrain - which further confirms your godbot status, with honours. But I wonder where are your results of asking every last Muslim in the world - some 1.2 billion - their thoughts and opinions on various issues. Polls - as I suggested or argued in the Islamist thread - are not perfect - and they are very frequently stipulated as such which you would have known if you'd read any of the statistics articles I referenced there. But they're a damn sight better than your empty blathering, and intellectually dishonest moving of the goal posts.
I have to agree with Steersman on this one. The ideas behind polls in not to give precise numbers, but to offer a range of variation of opinions.

The exact figures about "how many Muslims support Sharia law as the only law of the state" or "how many Muslims support violence for political ends" are impossible to know, but a cluster of polls clearly show that while the number of those who support Sharia law as the basis of government are much higher than the numbers of those who support violence to implement a theocracy both positions aren't limited to ineffectual, isolated fringes.

Of course banning opinions we don't like is highly illiberal, but being aware of some trends is required to being at least willing to counteract them.

The idea that Islam is a perfect system and that therefore it should take over the world is widespread among Muslims, and it's the source of many other ideas which are incompatible with liberal democracy. In order for Muslims to peacefully live in a liberal democracy there needs to be a lot of curbing of ideas of world domination and a lot of criticism of Islam itself.

Instead far too many leftist intellectuals prefer allying with political islam against liberal democracy, and too many politicians and pundits seem to either tar all Muslims with the same broad brush or to defend Islam to the end as "the religion of peace".

Muslims need to realize that liberal values are here to stay, and that it's their religion which has to change and adapt to modernity, not the other way around. If they don't then social tensions will increase, more violence will follow and everyone will suffer.

Modernity and liberal democracy are actually very good for Muslims: they protect them from persecutions, including from persecutions from other Muslims. Separation of church and state was actually created to defend freedom of religion. Religious people should be grateful for a neutral, secular state: it allows them not to become targets of their religious rivals.

Muslim revivalism is only destined to bring in more suffering and pain for everyone involved. The sooner all Muslims realize this, the better.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#398

Post by jimhabegger » Sun Jul 10, 2016 6:50 pm

comhcinc wrote:
Brive1987 wrote: My point was that it would be useful if facts support the continued domestic flight to arms. Alas they don't. Oh well.
Lol that was ugly quote fuck up.


Like I said before there isn't a lot of good evidence out there one way or the other. IT is a problem that the CDC isn't allow to do research. It is a fact that we need to create some standards. All the figures being thrown around have lots of issues. They are either out of date, incomplete, biased, or just fake. Anyone claiming they have good data are wrong.

Now with all that said this is way I want to say. To a lot of people I think have a gun for protection is kinda like wearing a seat belts on a planes. They probably won't save your live, they might even be dangerous but they make people feel better.
Com, this is another example of why I missed you. Your posts often look more sensible and reasonable to me than most of the others. You look like a stabilizing influence to me, when some people start acting crazy.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#399

Post by d4m10n » Tue Jul 12, 2016 8:52 am

jimhabegger wrote:Have you ever seen any empirical evidence for any positive correlation between response frequencies on opinion polls, and response frequencies in the population allegedly being sampled? What reasons do you have for trusting in the honesty and integrity of any sources of opinion polls? Have you ever responded to one, yourself?
Every two or four years, we get the chance to measure the extent to which opinion polling (based on relatively small random samples) is validated by electoral polling (several million people expressing their preferences). Here is how that worked in 2012:
Notice that at least four political scientists (Linzer, Wang, Ferguson, Silver, Jackman) were able to nearly perfectly predict state level outcomes based solely on data from opinion polls. This is because random sampling is an incredibly powerful tool for getting at the truth about a population parameter without having to measure the entire population.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#400

Post by Skep tickle » Tue Jul 12, 2016 7:01 pm

I want to see an opinion poll about opinion polls.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#401

Post by Lsuoma » Tue Jul 12, 2016 8:24 pm

Skep tickle wrote:I want to see an opinion poll about opinion polls.
Yay! Skeppers back!!

:burn: :burn: :burn:

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#402

Post by MarcusAu » Tue Jul 12, 2016 9:47 pm

Skep tickle wrote:I want to see an opinion poll about opinion polls.
And what (in your opinion) would be the value of that?

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#403

Post by jimhabegger » Tue Jul 12, 2016 11:11 pm

Come back any time, and bring your friends!

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#404

Post by jimhabegger » Wed Jul 13, 2016 2:56 am

Kirbmarc, for transparency I want to say that you look to me like you devalue non-white people as much as anyone. You just have a more sophisticated camouflage, that took some time for me to see through. Of course I might be all wrong about that, but that's how it looks to me now.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#405

Post by Kirbmarc » Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:33 am

jimhabegger wrote:Kirbmarc, for transparency I want to say that you look to me like you devalue non-white people as much as anyone. You just have a more sophisticated camouflage, that took some time for me to see through. Of course I might be all wrong about that, but that's how it looks to me now.
Jim, on what basis do you support this statement?

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#406

Post by jimhabegger » Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:57 am

None. It was really stupid for me to post that. Anyway, if I thought you really needed to know what I was thinking, it should have been in a PM.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#407

Post by d4m10n » Thu Jul 14, 2016 6:12 am

Almost Diamonds wrote:The Slymepit didn’t just happen into existence. It has a purpose. That purpose isn’t subtle. The means aren’t subtle or ethical. You can’t just hang out there and not know any of that. You can’t be comfortable there without being comfortable with that. So, yes, your participation in the Slymepit is incriminating. It’s hardly as though you have nowhere else on the internet to go.
Curious to hear your reply to Zvan on this.

What are the unsubtle purposes?

What are the unethical means?

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Re:

#408

Post by jimhabegger » Thu Jul 14, 2016 6:54 am

d4m10n wrote:
Almost Diamonds wrote:The Slymepit didn’t just happen into existence. It has a purpose. That purpose isn’t subtle. The means aren’t subtle or ethical. You can’t just hang out there and not know any of that. You can’t be comfortable there without being comfortable with that. So, yes, your participation in the Slymepit is incriminating. It’s hardly as though you have nowhere else on the internet to go.
Curious to hear your reply to Zvan on this.

What are the unsubtle purposes?

What are the unethical means?
You mean, what do I think she meant? Or what do I think, myself, about the purpose and the means?

I don't know whose purpose she's talking about. Abbie's? Lsuoma's? The people posting here? Me? We might all have different purposes. My own purposes in posting here have changed since I first started. Currently my purpose is that I see something good happening here, and I want to to be part of it.

If you want me to speculate about what Zvan thinks the purpose is, my guess is that she thinks the purpose is to harass people. What she means by unethical means might be intentionally false allegations, and/or cruelty. I have no idea how many of the allegations posted here are intentionally false, if any. It seems inevitable to me that some of them would be. I have seen a few posts that look intentionally cruel to me.

Some of what I see here is perpetual maligning and muckraking, and I think that's poisonous to the people doing it, to the people around them, and to all of society, but that's nothing unique about the Pit.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#409

Post by d4m10n » Thu Jul 14, 2016 10:17 am

I cannot fathom what Zvan believes our unsubtle purposes are, mostly I was curious to hear your own.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#410

Post by jimhabegger » Thu Jul 14, 2016 12:37 pm

d4m10n wrote:I cannot fathom what Zvan believes our unsubtle purposes are, mostly I was curious to hear your own.
The forum description says "Exposing the stupidity, lies, and hypocrisy of Social Justice Warriors," and that does look like part of the purpose to me, for some people posting here.

It looks to me like part of the purpose is for people to be able to post whatever they want to post, about what some other people are doing. Different people might have different reasons for what they want to post, which may or may not always include what the forum description says.

I see the Pit serving another purpose, which is one of the reasons that I'm still posting here. I see it helping to counteract the damage to people's lives, and to society, from people demonizing white men.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#411

Post by jimhabegger » Mon Jul 18, 2016 7:45 am

Kirbmarc wrote:
Steersman wrote:Something that Razib Khan objected to without, I thought, a lot of justification. You might be interested in a related discussion, and what brought Hamid's article to my attention
Interesting article, thanks for sharing. Razib Khan is a very lucid thinker. The central point of the first part of his article is this:
people like Ben Affleck, and frankly most Left-liberals who might fall back on the term Islamophobia, don’t actually take Islam, or religion generally, seriously. This explains the rapid and strident recourse toward a racial analogy for Islamic identity, as that is a framework that modern Left-liberals and progressives have internalized and mastered. The problem with this is that Islam is not a racial or ethnic identity, it is a set of beliefs and practices
Spot on. That's the main problem with the Regressive Left. Being a Muslim isn't something intrinsic to a person's nature. It's a belief. Criticizing Islam, and wanting to deal with the issues it presents, isn't "racism", and all the leftists who believe otherwise are very wrong.
I can hardly believe that you, or anyone else, are serious when you respond this way to people saying that anti-Muslim prejudice is racist. As if that proves that anti-Muslim prejudice can't be race prejudice. Seriously, do you really think that Islam not being a race, proves that anti-Muslim prejudice can't be race prejudice?

I'm not agreeing with calling anyone or their views "racist," or even "Islamophobic." I think that's stupid. I just think it's also stupid to use "Islam is not a race" as an argument against that.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#412

Post by jimhabegger » Mon Jul 18, 2016 7:58 am

Kirbmarc, a lot of what I see people passing off as "criticism of Islam" looks to me like camouflage for malicious and malevolent defamation campaigns against Muslims, and I see race prejudice as part of the reason for the popularity of those defamation campaigns. Do you really not see any truth in that at all?

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#413

Post by Kirbmarc » Mon Jul 18, 2016 8:27 am

jimhabegger wrote:Kirbmarc, a lot of what I see people passing off as "criticism of Islam" looks to me like camouflage for malicious and malevolent defamation campaigns against Muslims, and I see race prejudice as part of the reason for the popularity of those defamation campaigns. Do you really not see any truth in that at all?
Have you read the article which I have quoted? Have you read Shadi Hamid's article on the supposed incompatibility between Islam and liberal democracy? Both Razib Khan and Shadi Hamid offer ideas about criticism of Islam which aren't really tied to race, nor are they malicious and malevolent campaigns against Muslims. Razib Khan is an atheist from a Muslim family. Shadi Hamid identifies as a deist-partially agnostic version of a liberal interpretation of Islam.

Is there some kind of racism among people who want illiberal solutions to the problems of Islam? Definitely, especially when they focus on things like "looking like a Muslim". There's no such thing as a "Muslim look". Muslims can look from this:

http://serbianna.com/news/wp-content/up ... rventa.jpg

(Bosnian Muslims)

to this:

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/4 ... 7274-2.jpg

(a Nigerian Muslim)

with all shades of brown in between. So yes, someone who talks about "Muslim looking" people is either rather ignorant or racist (likely against Middle Easterns, since they're the kind of people mostly associated with Islam in the media).

But that's not what the article was talking about. The article was talking about the instinctive reaction from some Western leftists, which associates any general criticism of Islam with racism. The article specifically referred to Ben Affleck's reaction to Sam Harris' criticism of Islam, and why Affleck is wrong (and Harris is more right than wrong, although he still gets some things wrong).

If we want to deal with the issues of integration and of secularism and Islam the idea that "Islam is a race" is counterproductive. Hell, it's already counterproductive, since it leads to racism against Middle Easterns and Indian people (Muslims or not: a man with a turban was shot because he "looked Muslim" when he was actually a Sikh).

No, Islam isn't a race, and we should all remember it. The sooner we make people understand that Islam is a series of beliefs, some of which are incredibly different from a sect to another, and neither a race nor a monolith, the better we can face the challenges of integration and of dealing with dangerous subversives and Muslim supremacists.

Can some people say that they're only "anti-Muslims" when they're actually racists (largely against Middle Eastern people)? Yes, this happens.

Is Islam a race, and does this make all criticism of Islam as a whole "racist"? No, not at all.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#414

Post by jimhabegger » Mon Jul 18, 2016 9:38 am

Kirbmarc wrote:
jimhabegger wrote:Kirbmarc, a lot of what I see people passing off as "criticism of Islam" looks to me like camouflage for malicious and malevolent defamation campaigns against Muslims, and I see race prejudice as part of the reason for the popularity of those defamation campaigns. Do you really not see any truth in that at all?
Have you read the article which I have quoted? Have you read Shadi Hamid's article on the supposed incompatibility between Islam and liberal democracy? Both Razib Khan and Shadi Hamid offer ideas about criticism of Islam which aren't really tied to race, nor are they malicious and malevolent campaigns against Muslims. Razib Khan is an atheist from a Muslim family. Shadi Hamid identifies as a deist-partially agnostic version of a liberal interpretation of Islam.
I'll look at those. I said "a lot of what I see people passing off as 'criticism of Islam." I'm not saying that none of it is actually honest and responsible criticism.
Is there some kind of racism among people who want illiberal solutions to the problems of Islam? Definitely, especially when they focus on things like "looking like a Muslim" ... So yes, someone who talks about "Muslim looking" people is either rather ignorant or racist (likely against Middle Easterns, since they're the kind of people mostly associated with Islam in the media). ... Can some people say that they're only "anti-Muslims" when they're actually racists (largely against Middle Eastern people)? Yes, this happens.
That answers my question about what you think. It still doesn't make sense to me to use "Islam is not a race" as an argument against people being accused of racism, when they're making sweeping, incriminating, unqualified statements about Islam and Muslims.
But that's not what the article was talking about. The article was talking about the instinctive reaction from some Western leftists, which associates any general criticism of Islam with racism. The article specifically referred to Ben Affleck's reaction to Sam Harris' criticism of Islam, and why Affleck is wrong (and Harris is more right than wrong, although he still gets some things wrong).
Regardless of who or what the article is talking about, saying "Islam is not a race" does nothing to prove that what a person is saying specifically about Muslims is not racist.
If we want to deal with the issues of integration and of secularism and Islam the idea that "Islam is a race" ...
Have you actually seen anyone saying that Islam is a race? Do you have any reason to think that anyone who's accusing people of racism is saying or even implying that Islam actually is a race?
The sooner we make people understand that Islam is a series of beliefs, some of which are incredibly different from a sect to another, and neither a race nor a monolith, the better we can face the challenges of integration and of dealing with dangerous subversives and Muslim supremacists.
I really doubt that there's anyone who doesn't know that Islam is not a race. The race factor is in people's stereotypes of Muslims, and just saying "Islam is not a race" is not what will change that.
Is Islam a race, and does this make all criticism of Islam as a whole "racist"? No, not at all.
I agree, but that looks like a stupid straw man argument and a red herring to me. I don't believe that anyone who's accusing people of racism is saying or even implying that Islam is a race, or that all criticism of Islam as a whole is racist.

There might be people who have a bad habit of reacting indiscriminately to sweeping, incriminating statements about Islam and Muslims, by calling them "racist," but responding to that with "Islam is not a race" looks like a stupid straw man argument and a red herring to me, just a cheap way to evade the issue.

Then again, the accusation of racism is a red herring, and maybe it's fair, and logical, to respond to one red herring with another.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#415

Post by Steersman » Mon Jul 18, 2016 3:57 pm

jimhabegger wrote:
Kirbmarc wrote: <snip>
Spot on. That's the main problem with the Regressive Left. Being a Muslim isn't something intrinsic to a person's nature. It's a belief. Criticizing Islam, and wanting to deal with the issues it presents, isn't "racism", and all the leftists who believe otherwise are very wrong.
I can hardly believe that you, or anyone else, are serious when you respond this way to people saying that anti-Muslim prejudice is racist. As if that proves that anti-Muslim prejudice can't be race prejudice. Seriously, do you really think that Islam not being a race, proves that anti-Muslim prejudice can't be race prejudice?

I'm not agreeing with calling anyone or their views "racist," or even "Islamophobic." I think that's stupid. I just think it's also stupid to use "Islam is not a race" as an argument against that.
How the fuck can "anti-Muslim prejudice" be "race prejudice" if "Muslim" isn't a race? That's like saying you can be married and a bachelor: the latter is simply defined as an unmarried male - trying to insist on both states is insisting on a contradiction in terms. Race pertains to biology while religion pertains to theology and ideology and morality: one might well be "prejudiced" against the latter set - with or without justification - but the latter is still different from the former.

Once again you prove you're little better than a godbot, that you blather without thinking about what you're saying, that you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#416

Post by jimhabegger » Mon Jul 18, 2016 4:17 pm

Steersman, that comment was actually helpful. Thank you.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#417

Post by jimhabegger » Mon Jul 18, 2016 7:06 pm

I'll be posting some thoughts here sometimes about the Pit, and what I'm doing here.

My reason now for posting here is that I see something good happening here, and I want to be part of it. What I'm doing now, to be part of it, is reading other people's posts, and posting some of my thoughts about what they're discussing, and about other topics that interest me. In my posts I'm trying to practice my ideas for more healthy, fruitful and beneficial discussions.

I also see some things happening here that don't look so good to me, and I'm trying to learn not to be distracted by that.

For a while I was planning to try some ideas for changing some popular attitudes and behavior here, and to role-play my ideas for healthy community development, but now those projects are suspended indefinitely.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#418

Post by jimhabegger » Mon Jul 18, 2016 7:22 pm

I have no idea whether Dawkins, Harris, or any other celebrities who continually malign and defame Muslims, are really prejudiced against them. What I think is that little or nothing of what they say about Islam and Muslims is actual honest and responsible criticism, or aimed at actually helping to solve any problems. I think that all they are doing, consciously or unconsciously, is advancing their careers by appealing to popular prejudices against Muslims. I also think that part of what is perpetuating those prejudices is depreciation of non-white people.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#419

Post by jimhabegger » Thu Aug 04, 2016 10:00 am

HunnyBunny wrote:
jimhabegger wrote:Maybe it was just a matter of time before demonizing white men, and demonizing Muslims, became more popular in identity atheism, than demonizing followers of other religions besides Islam. 9/11 suddenly made anti-Muslim propaganda a lot more popular than it was before. I'm not sure if there has been any sudden increase in the popularity of demonizing white men, and if so, what the reason might be.

Another possibility I see is that people have just gotten bored with maligning and defaming followers of religions in general, and/or their prejudices against them are breaking down, and they've turned to scapegoating and demonizing white men, or Muslims, instead.
You continually describe criticism of Islam as demonising Muslims. Is all discussion of the concepts of Islam necessarily anti-Muslim bigotry in your opinion? How can a person criticise a religion without crossing your line in the sand?
What I mean by demonizing Muslims is intermingling discussions about outrageous things people do in the name of Islam, with alarming generalizations about Islam and Muslims, for example:
- Saying that some alarming number or percentage of Muslims approve of the worst things that people do in the name of Islam, or want the worst interpretations of Islamic law imposed on all people.
- Saying that Islam is incompatible with western civilization.
- Saying or insinuating that Muslims who don't approve of the worst things that people do in the name of Islam, or imposing the worst versions of Islamic law on all people everywhere, are not true Muslims, or are twisting the Quran more than the ones who do.

If you'd like, I can try to find some examples of criticism of Islam that don't look to me like excuses and camouflage for anti-Muslim prejudices, or people advancing their careers by appealing to anti-Muslim prejudices.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#420

Post by Kirbmarc » Thu Aug 04, 2016 12:06 pm

jimhabegger wrote: What I mean by demonizing Muslims is intermingling discussions about outrageous things people do in the name of Islam, with alarming generalizations about Islam and Muslims, for example:
- Saying that some alarming number or percentage of Muslims approve of the worst things that people do in the name of Islam, or want the worst interpretations of Islamic law imposed on all people.
There's some twisting of words here. I'm sure that most Muslims, being not completely sociopathic human beings, tend to frown on "the worst" acts or interpretations of Islam. Burning people alive, or having child sex slaves, isn't going to win you many friends among even remotely empathetic people, Muslim or not. But the problem isn't just "the worst" of Islam.

The problem is the idea of Muslim superiority, of Muslim purity and Western decadence, of a Muslim world as the best possible world no matter its costs. That's a pretty widespread and "problematic" idea in Islam, and I think that it should be criticized (not legally punished, no prohibited, not repressed, but criticized) from within Islam and from outside critics.
- Saying that Islam is incompatible with western civilization.
What is "Western civilization"? Hard to say: asks five persons and they'll give you five different definitions. Same for "Islam".

I don't think that "Islam" is incompatible with "Western civilization". I argue that the ideas of a world where Islam is what shapes policies and societiy is at odds with a secular liberal democracy. It's not a matter of "West", but a matter of human rights, of the values of separation of Church and state, due process, equality before the law, freedom of speech, etc.

Those aren't "Western" values. They're modern values. Modernity wasn't just made in the West, and it doesn't apply just to the West. I don't think that those values are incompatible with a Muslim faith, but surely they're incompatible with the idea that people should obey religious laws over secular ones. Religion should (emphasis on should) be a matter of private choice, not a standard on which you base laws and institutions. Insititutions should be neutral towards religion, just like a referee in a football game should neutral towards different teams.

Of course these ideas can't be imposed, especially since authoritarian imposition of liberal ideas violates those same liberal ideas. This doesn't mean that someone who cares about modern values should shy away from criticizing anti-modern ideas, including anti-modern attitudes in Islam.
Saying or insinuating that Muslims who don't approve of the worst things that people do in the name of Islam, or imposing the worst versions of Islamic law on all people everywhere, are not true Muslims, or are twisting the Quran more than the ones who do.
There's no such thing as a "true" or "false" Muslim. However the literal interpretation of the Quran is what it is, and it's terrible according to our modern standard (it might not have been so bad in the days when it was written, but those days are gone and the world has changed).

Of course the literal interpretation of the Bible isn't much better: and many Christians have found a way to reconcile their faith with modernity. I don't see why more and more more Muslims shouldn't be able to eventually do the same , especially since some of them already do it (although it might take a very long time for Muslims to catch up with Christians).

But it'd be stupid not to recognize that anti-modern ideas are still widespread in Islam and possibly are becoming even more popular due to the efforts of many anti-modernity preachers.

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