"God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

For endless numbers of endless posts about the same endless techniques
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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#241

Post by jimhabegger » Thu Mar 31, 2016 6:22 pm

Scented Nectar wrote:That's pretty good.
Thanks. :)

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#242

Post by jimhabegger » Thu Mar 31, 2016 6:29 pm

Scented Nectar, this is what I used to do for fun in my younger days:
Paper Models of Polyhedra

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#243

Post by jimhabegger » Fri Apr 01, 2016 8:58 am

I should have asked this question a long time ago.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#244

Post by jimhabegger » Fri Apr 01, 2016 9:29 am

I didn't have room for all this in my signature, so I'm posting it here:

Week of March 27 - April 2
Surprise Reader of the Week: Scented Nectar, for reading response and reading comprehension
Previous Reader of the Week: One-Trick Pony, for faithfulness, comic relief, and 2 bull's-eyes
Followers: None
Poster of the Week: One-Trick Pony, for integrity, courage and quality of posts

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#245

Post by jimhabegger » Fri Apr 01, 2016 9:31 am

I want to thank Lsuoma for his generosity, fairness and honesty with me. I mean that seriously.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#246

Post by jimhabegger » Fri Apr 01, 2016 10:08 am

I almost forgot: Special award to Feathers, for independent investigation, and responsible and critical thinking.

I considered Phil_Giordana_FCD for Poster of the Week, because he was the first to object to the creepiness frenzy, but all things considered, One-Trick Pony shined out for me above all the others.

I want to express appreciation also to Skep Tickle, Aneris and KiwInOz, for their open friendliness.

I want to give credit also to anyone who ignored me simply because they weren't interested in anything I was saying, and to the people who responded on topic to some of my posts.

There might have some friendliness in some of CaptainFluffyBunny's most recent posts to me. If so, I appreciate it.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#247

Post by jimhabegger » Fri Apr 01, 2016 10:21 am

If I forgot anyone who showed some friendly interest in me, it doesn't mean I didn't appreciate it. Anyone who wants to is welcome to send me a PM or an email. I might not get notifications for PM's so if you don't get any answer to a PM, try an email.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#248

Post by jimhabegger » Sat Apr 02, 2016 9:49 am

Scented Nectar, I've seen enough friendliness in your posts now, to try to answer the questions you asked earlier. I'm not sure what you meant by "your offshoot branch of Islam," but whatever you meant by it, I will only say what my own personal views are.

- Do I have the same aversion to pigs and dogs that some Muslims have?
I don't know, because I don't know anything about the aversions that Muslims have to pigs and dogs. I love dogs. Pigs not so much, but I wouldn't say that I have an aversion to them. Maybe even a little affection, from reading "Charlotte's Web."

- Do I believe that some religious crimes should be punished by death?
As far as I know, my God prescribes a death penalty only for murder and arson, but He also allows a possibility of life imprisonment, instead of death.

- Do I promote mutilation of genitals?
No.

- Do I promote veiling of females?
No.

- Do I promote arranged marriages?
No.

- Do I believe that religious laws should be the law of the land?
I think that the laws prescribed by my God should some day be, and will some day be, the law of the land.

- Do I believe that my God split the moon and then put it back together again?
That sounds like it might be from the Quran. If so then I presume it's true, metaphorically, but I would need to do some research to explain the metaphor.

- Do I have a holy book, like the Quran?
Not exactly a book. My scriptures are the writings of Baha'u'llah, which would fill many volumes.

- Do I promote the killing of unbelievers?
No.

- Does my God prescribe any specific type of praying or other rituals?
Yes.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#249

Post by jimhabegger » Sat Apr 02, 2016 5:40 pm

It just occurred to me that maybe the whole Slyme Pit is actually a parody, and I'm the only one, or one of the few, who aren't in on it. That would be a good joke on me! I'll be pondering how that might affect my interests here.

"If it looks like a duck ..."

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#250

Post by Skep tickle » Sat Apr 02, 2016 11:00 pm

Jim, you have been repeatedly referring to someone here as "One-Trick Pony", apparently a nickname you've bestowed as no active member goes by that 'nym.

You might not be aware that the term "one-trick pony" comes across as dismissive. I mention this mostly because you seem like the kind of person who might want to take that aspect of the nickname into consideration.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#251

Post by Skep tickle » Sat Apr 02, 2016 11:12 pm

jimhabegger wrote:Scented Nectar, I've seen enough friendliness in your posts now, to try to answer the questions you asked earlier. I'm not sure what you meant by "your offshoot branch of Islam," but whatever you meant by it, I will only say what my own personal views are.

- Do I have the same aversion to pigs and dogs that some Muslims have?
I don't know, because I don't know anything about the aversions that Muslims have to pigs and dogs. I love dogs. Pigs not so much, but I wouldn't say that I have an aversion to them. Maybe even a little affection, from reading "Charlotte's Web."

- Do I believe that some religious crimes should be punished by death?
As far as I know, my God prescribes a death penalty only for murder and arson, but He also allows a possibility of life imprisonment, instead of death.

- Do I promote mutilation of genitals?
No.

- Do I promote veiling of females?
No.

- Do I promote arranged marriages?
No.

- Do I believe that religious laws should be the law of the land?
I think that the laws prescribed by my God should some day be, and will some day be, the law of the land.

- Do I believe that my God split the moon and then put it back together again?
That sounds like it might be from the Quran. If so then I presume it's true, metaphorically, but I would need to do some research to explain the metaphor.

- Do I have a holy book, like the Quran?
Not exactly a book. My scriptures are the writings of Baha'u'llah, which would fill many volumes.

- Do I promote the killing of unbelievers?
No.

- Does my God prescribe any specific type of praying or other rituals?
Yes.
I'm not Scented Nectar, but I wonder how this:
jimhabeggar wrote:I think that the laws prescribed by my God should some day be, and will some day be, the law of the land
fits with your responses that "As far as I know, my God prescribes" certain things (punishments for certain crimes), but that you don't "promote" any of several requirements that some people claim to be sure are prescribed by God.

Do you have a different God than they do?

Do you have a way of knowing what "the laws prescribed by...God" are, whether it's "your" God or "the" God doing the prescribing? Does anyone? Is there one correct set of laws/rules? Is there one correct set of scriptures? How do you, or does anyone, know whether that's the case & if so which set is the right one?

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#252

Post by Skep tickle » Sat Apr 02, 2016 11:13 pm

Oh, and FWIW I really liked your avatar photo with the "REEPENT" sign :)

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#253

Post by jimhabegger » Sun Apr 03, 2016 7:44 am

Skep tickle wrote:You might not be aware that the term "one-trick pony" comes across as dismissive. I mention this mostly because you seem like the kind of person who might want to take that aspect of the nickname into consideration.
:D You're right that I would want to take that into consideration. :think: It's comhcinc. It feels more friendly to me to call him "One-Trick Pony," than "comhcinc," and I don't see any reason to think that it has any demoralizing effect on him, or even annoys him. He usually lets me know when I'm doing something that annoys him. I'm not really sure that it doesn't annoy him though, so I think I'll stop. Thanks.
Skep tickle wrote:I'm not Scented Nectar, but I wonder how this:
jimhabeggar wrote:I think that the laws prescribed by my God should some day be, and will some day be, the law of the land
fits with your responses that "As far as I know, my God prescribes" certain things (punishments for certain crimes), but that you don't "promote" any of several requirements that some people claim to be sure are prescribed by God.

Do you have a different God than they do?
I'm not sure whether to say they have a different God than mine, or to say that we have a different understanding of what He's telling us. It might be both, and it might be different for different people.
Do you have a way of knowing what "the laws prescribed by...God" are, whether it's "your" God or "the" God doing the prescribing? Does anyone? Is there one correct set of laws/rules? Is there one correct set of scriptures? How do you, or does anyone, know whether that's the case & if so which set is the right one?
I wouldn't say I have a way of knowing what His laws are. I don't think anyone does. I think I do have a way of continually improving my understanding and application of them. I would need to know what you mean by "correct," to say if I think there's one correct set of rules, or one correct set of scriptures. I don't think in those terms, myself. Maybe it would help answer your question if I say that when something in the writings of Baha'u'llah looks wrong to me, I never try to resolve the conflict by imagining that He's wrong. I might be wrong, or I might be misunderstanding what He's saying, or it might be a misleading translation, but I never suppose that He's wrong.

I view the sayings of Jesus in the Bible stories the same way, and the Quran, although I don't actually read it. I did read it once, or maybe twice. I think the translations of the Bible and the Quran are more likely to be misleading. I think also the influence of the written words of God might diminish over time, so that the benefits of studying the Bible or the Quran might be less than the benefits of studying the writings of Baha'u'llah. I'm not sure of that though. It might depend on the person and the circumstances.
Oh, and FWIW I really liked your avatar photo with the "REEPENT" sign :)
:D I'm glad, and it really does mean a lot to me for you to say that. I'll bring it back.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#254

Post by Steersman » Sun Apr 03, 2016 1:03 pm

Skep tickle wrote:Oh, and FWIW I really liked your avatar photo with the "REEPENT" sign :)
Indeed. Somewhat apropos of which, and as bit of a pretext for a Cohen classic :-) :
[youtube]vnaxvBsyigM[/youtube]


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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#255

Post by jimhabegger » Mon Apr 04, 2016 2:39 am

I have a new idea about what I'd like to do here. When I first started posting here, I was trying to discuss some kinds of neighborhood community development that I'm promoting, with anyone who might be interested. I'd still like to do that, if I ever find anyone to do it with. Now, beyond that, I'd like to try helping to put that kind of community development into practice, here in the Slyme Pit.

I've never heard of anyone trying to do that before, in any online community. I'm not sure it's even possible, but I'm not sure it isn't.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#256

Post by jimhabegger » Mon Apr 04, 2016 6:05 pm

Skep Tickle, I've changed my mind about calling comhcinc "One-Trick Pony." I don't see any reason to think he doesn't like it. He's never been afraid to tell me when I'm doing something he doesn't like.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#257

Post by jimhabegger » Mon Apr 04, 2016 9:28 pm

Steersman wrote:Out of the 250-odd posts in that thread of yours in the Bottomless Pit of Endless Wonder forum, a large percentage of which are yours, I see maybe 3 or 4 links, most if not all of which are to your church website.
I might have more readers than I thought.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#258

Post by jimhabegger » Wed Apr 06, 2016 9:39 pm

I'll post some thoughts here that have been going through my mind, about Internet discussions. I'm not sure they would mean anything to anyone here, but I'm not sure they wouldn't.

A lot of the conversation I've seen in some Internet discussions and blogs revolves around maligning and defaming people, raking up muck about them, and otherwise indulging and fueling animosities. I think that's unhealthy for everyone involved, and that it helps perpetuate all of our social problems, including the ones that people are complaining about in their maligning and muckraking.

That isn't really what grieves me the most in Internet discussions. What grieves me the most is seeing people not only not trying to help reduce and counteract the cruelty and violence all around us, and around the world, but using it as source material for endless, aimless, fruitless recreational debating. It reminds me of the movie "Cabaret," but it's worse than that. In "Cabaret," people go to the cabaret to escape from what's happening to the society around them, but they aren't feeding on it like vultures, at least not that I remember.

I'm pondering what, if anything, I want to do about all that. It might just be the online tip of an offline iceberg, and it might be futile to try to do anything about it on the Internet. Considering those behaviors as symptoms of social conditions, there might not even be anything I would want to do about them, beyond what I'm already doing about social problems.

I've seen some signs that is is possible for one person, even an unpopular person, to make a difference in the kinds of behavior that are popular in an online community. I feel it as a social responsibility to do what I can to help improve popular behavior in any community I'm part of, so I might try to do that here, as long as I'm posting here, unless, of course, that's prohibited by the administrators. I'm already doing part of it anyway: I'm trying to improve my own practice of the kinds of behavior I'm promoting. The only thing I would need to add is to discuss what I'm thinking and doing, here.

The first thought that comes to mind is that I had a bad attitude when I first came here. I was pursuing a purpose of my own, without any interest in, or regard for, what I saw anyone else doing here. I excused that by telling myself that nothing is off topic here, but even if that's true, my attitude was very unfriendly and disrespectful. Since I realized that, everything I've been doing here up to now has been to try to correct that.

One challenge for me has been resisting the temptation to buy my way into the fellowship with virtue signals. Some of the most popular virtue signals among online atheists are maliging and defaming religions and their followers, and raking up muck about them. Some of the most popular virtue signals in the Pit are maliging and defaming SJWs, and raking up muck about them. I've been tempted to do that sometimes, and might have actually done so, but I'm trying to resist that temptation.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#259

Post by jimhabegger » Fri Apr 08, 2016 7:21 pm

I'm seeing this now as partly a safe space, a support group, and a role-playing game, for oppressed white men to escape from the oppression and its demoralizing effects, and from their feelings of helplessness in the face of it all.

Maybe that's why it appeals to me so much.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#260

Post by jimhabegger » Fri Apr 08, 2016 8:12 pm

All the amateur online support groups that I've seen, for oppressed and traumatized people, look to me like they're doing more harm than good to the people in them, but I could be wrong about that, and in any case it might be possible to change that.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#261

Post by jimhabegger » Fri Apr 08, 2016 9:00 pm

My mind is racing. This is a new experience for me. I've sympathized with gays, but I never felt the oppression they were up against, myself. I sympathized with Baha'i reformers, but I never felt the oppression they were up against, myself. This time, I'm unambiguously a target of popular prejudices against the people I'm sympathizing with, and I've felt the oppression, myself.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#262

Post by jimhabegger » Sat Apr 09, 2016 4:12 pm

I thought that I could join in on the clowning, but I see that I can't. I'm going back to little or no humor in my posts.

I think support groups for oppressed people can be helpful, if they're managed in such a way that they don't become echo chambers and fantasy worlds for virtual retaliation against scapegoats by maligning and defaming them, and raking up muck about them. That looks very unhealthy to me, and like a very good way to impede their progress in facing up to oppression.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#263

Post by jimhabegger » Sat Apr 09, 2016 5:05 pm

I just did a search for articles about oppressed white men, and I haven't found any that seem to me to address the issue seriously and responsibly. I did enjoy some of the humor in this:
Stephen Colbert's Guide to White Male Oppression

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#264

Post by Lsuoma » Sat Apr 09, 2016 5:52 pm

"back to"?

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#265

Post by jimhabegger » Sat Apr 09, 2016 7:11 pm

Lsuoma wrote:"back to"?
I expected something like that from someone, but I was a little surprised (and honored) to get this much personal attention from you, even to say something scornful.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#266

Post by jimhabegger » Sun Apr 10, 2016 3:57 am

This is close to repeating myself, but it's a little different way of saying it.

I've felt called before to walk and work with some specific groups, including victims of the Geocities chatquake and watermark, blacks, African-Americans, gays, Baha'is campaigning against Baha'i institutions, atheists, and now white men. With white men, this will be the first time that I've seen myself as incontestably a member of the group I'm learning to walk and work with.

I was not one of the people adversely affected by the Geocities chatquake, because I came in just after it happened. I was not one of the people adversely affected by the watermark. There's no way I could reasonably be considered black, African-American, or a Baha'i campaigning against Baha'i institutions. For a while I thought I was an atheist according to the popular definition among online atheists, but I don't think so any more. I do think I'm authentically queer, but I'm not sure any other queer would agree with me.

I have no doubt or hesitation in calling myself a white man, and I don't think anyone would ever contest it, apart from thinking that I'm not a "real man" in some stereotypical sense. I can some possible advantages in that, and some possible disadvantages, for what I'm hoping to learn to do.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#267

Post by jimhabegger » Sun Apr 10, 2016 7:34 am

Some harmful consequences of some popular thinking, stereotyping and stigmatizing white people and men, similar to the harmful consequences of popular thinking stereotyping and stigmatizing any other group or category of people, that I've never thought of that way much before, are coming into focus for me. I see it as having all the same confusing, distracting, demoralizing and disabling effects on some people, and cascading consequences on all the rest of us, and I see it as just as wrong.

I've been discussing these thoughts with my wife, and that has helped me organize my thoughts about it. I'm starting with the same ideas that I've learned for working with other groups and categories of people. I see a need for general solutions and particular solutions, some responses that apply to all groups, and other responses that are different for different groups.

What all people adversely affected by popular stereotyping and stigmatizing, and really all people in general, need:
- Healthy friendships.
- Healthy fellowships.
- Healthy family life.
- Healthy community life.
- Recognizing the oppression for what it is and what it does, and that it's wrong. That isn't always as easy for oppressed people to do as it might sound, because they've often internalized the stereotypes and prejudices against them, and it's hard for them to admit how it's affecting them because they would see that as weakness, or their own fault.
- Training to face up to the oppression.
- Some ways to feel successful in some activities that they see benefiting other people.

What's different for different groups:
- The specifics of the oppression, the specific attitudes, ways of thinking and behavior, including those of the people being stereotyped and stigmatized, that are having those effects. Seeing all that might sometimes be part of what oppressed people and/or their friends need at some point, for them to come out from under the oppression.

When this all started coming into focus for me, I started looking at myself, to see how much I might be affected, myself, by popular stereotyping and stigmatizing of white people and men. then I remembered that I don't really need to know. I can just start doing for myself whatever I would do if I knew that it was affecting me. Then sharing that with others might be the best that I can do, to help them.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#268

Post by jimhabegger » Sun Apr 10, 2016 8:17 am

Now I'm trying to organize my thoughts about why and how defamation campaigns against white people and against men, masquerading as feminism and social justice, have become so popular and successful.

I have some vague ideas about the how. I see germs of truth in most or all of the themes of the campaigns: power differentials, microaggression, intersectionality, trauma triggers, safe spaces, "shut up and listen," lived experience and self-identity, for example; I see germs of truth in all of that, which is how the the campaigns are being sold to more and more people, including policy makers. Not that anyone really believes any of it, or that it really explains why they're doing what they're doing, but somehow that facilitates the charades and parades.

It might not even be possible to unravel it all. Some parts of it that I see are career and monopoly interests, finding scapegoats, taking the path of least resistance, various group dynamics, and above all a moral vacuum in which any excuse will do for people to indulge their worst impulses.

Going back to the germs of truth that I see in the themes of defamation campaigns against white people and men, the truth that I see is that all those things do happen between people, and all those remedies do help under certain conditions. The perversion that I see is in reducing all the complexities of who is doing what, and who is being affected by it and how, which can vary according to the circumstances and from one minute to the next, to white people and men as oppressors and everyone else as victims, at all times and under all circumstances.

Part of the why could possibly be, as I already mentioned, that the most visible beneficiaries of all kinds of oppression are mostly white men, which makes scapegoating white men an easier sell to more people, than scapegoating any other groups or categories of people.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#269

Post by Skep tickle » Sun Apr 10, 2016 10:09 am

For me, one of the gender aspects that often gets overlooked is that men die younger than women, on average, wherever causes of maternal mortality have been successfully addressed (includes all "developed countries").

Men die from preventable causes at higher rates than women (including homicide, combat/war, and accidents - occupational and non-occupational). Men have higher mortality rates from common medical conditions like heart disease. 90% of work-related deaths (at least in US) are men. (MoC have higher rates than white men for many of these measures.)

Saying "the Patriarchy also hurts men" comes across IMO as a flip dismissal of this premature loss of life, and I haven't heard suggestions (realistic or otherwise) on how to address it in the drive toward gender equality.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#270

Post by Skep tickle » Sun Apr 10, 2016 10:11 am

Also suicide - accidentally edited that out from the list in 1st line of 2nd paragraph above.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#271

Post by jimhabegger » Sun Apr 10, 2016 5:15 pm

Skep tickle wrote:Saying "the Patriarchy also hurts men" comes across IMO as a flip dismissal of this premature loss of life, and I haven't heard suggestions (realistic or otherwise) on how to address it in the drive toward gender equality.
Do you have any thoughts about that, yourself?

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#272

Post by jimhabegger » Sun Apr 10, 2016 6:42 pm

Skep tickle wrote:Saying "the Patriarchy also hurts men" comes across IMO as a flip dismissal of this premature loss of life, and I haven't heard suggestions (realistic or otherwise) on how to address it in the drive toward gender equality.
I'm not sure what "the Patriarchy also hurts men" might mean to anyone who says that. What I see is men being oppressed not only by unfavorable stereotypes and prejudices, but also by favorable stereotypes that they don't live up to.

I haven't studied patriarchy theory, but the ways I've seen it used look superficial, short-sighted, and perverted to me. I imagine that there are some germs of truth in it though, like the germs of truth I see in all the rest of career and monopoly feminism and social justice.

I really would like to see your thoughts on what to do about the premature deaths. All I can think for me to do is what I'm already hoping to learn to do: be a better friend to each person in my life, including the men, and maybe participate in some kind of support group, like this one for example. Already my experience and observations here might help me be a better friend to the men in my life.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#273

Post by jimhabegger » Mon Apr 11, 2016 5:27 pm

Some more thoughts about support groups for people oppressed by popular stereotypes and prejudices:

I see a need for support groups like that, but I also see a tendency for them to go in very unhealthy directions. There needs to be something to attract oppressed people and keep them coming, besides maligning and defaming people they see as their oppressors, and raking up muck about them. On the other hand, the only interest they all have in common is their resentment against their oppressors.

I'm not sure that it's possible for a support group revolving around that to ever become anything else, without losing a lot of its members.

Some possibilities I see:
- Practicing and promoting conversations about practical ways of facing up to the oppression.
- Practicing and promoting conversations about how to help reduce and counteract all kinds of oppression in the surrounding society.
- Learning about the constructive and beneficial interests of all the members, to promote a variety of conversations, in such a way that every member finds some conversations that interest them.

Like cooking.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#274

Post by jimhabegger » Mon Apr 11, 2016 5:29 pm

I remember now. I don't need to invent anything. All I need to do is learn to encourage and support people who are going in some direction that looks healthy to me.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#275

Post by jimhabegger » Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:41 pm

I've thought about it some more, and it seems that even though I'm incontestably a white male, I have no more personal experience with being oppressed by popular stereotypes and prejudices about white people and about men, than I do with any other kind of oppression. Oh sure, I've felt faintly embarrassed sometimes about my gender nonconformity, but mostly I've been proud of it. On some rare occasions I've felt an impulse to apologize for being white or being a man, but I've never really felt targeted much by demonization campaigns against white people and men.

I asked my wife if she ever saw any symptoms in me of being oppressed by popular stereotypes and prejudices about white people or about men, and she said that maybe it has inhibited me from saying what I think sometimes, which, come to think of it, might not be such a bad thing, in moderation.

I think I've had a taste, once or twice in my life, of the kinds of self-doubt, self-depreciation and other feelings induced by popular stereotypes and prejudices, that sometimes lead to suicide, but only just a taste.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#276

Post by jimhabegger » Tue Apr 12, 2016 9:05 pm

I've been thinking about my attitude towards people who raise alarms about Muslims wanting to take over the world and impose Muslim laws on everyone, and who believe in opinion polls. I haven't been as charitable with them as I've been with followers of religions doing similar things. I'll try to improve on that.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#277

Post by jimhabegger » Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:13 pm

I finally found some rational discussions about opinion polls, and I see that I've been beating a dead horse again.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#278

Post by jimhabegger » Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:38 pm

In more than 17 years, I've never used the ignore options in Internet forums, but now I've decided that I need to here, for my health and safety.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#279

Post by jimhabegger » Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:51 pm

Stunned by the stupidity of quoting someone quoting me, to complain about quoting me. Or was it intentional irony?

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#280

Post by jimhabegger » Thu Apr 14, 2016 3:19 pm

"The violence of young white men maintains a society in which some older white men have most of the social, political, and economic power and benefits, and the majority of us have to fight for the left-overs. Twenty percent of the population of the United States controls over 90% of the wealth. Some young white men will become part of the top 20%, but most won't. The sorting out process-the process of deciding which young white men will make it into the top 20% is what produces the cynicism, fear, and sense of entitlement which leads to violence. In response to this process boys choose strategies which they think will help them thrive, survive, or at least stay alive."
Young White Men: Scared, Entitled, and Cynical -- a Deadly Combination

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#281

Post by jimhabegger » Thu Apr 14, 2016 3:23 pm

Nobody gets it. They see all the most notorious symptoms of being abused and oppressed, in white men, but they refuse to see them as symptoms of being abused and oppressed.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#282

Post by jimhabegger » Thu Apr 14, 2016 3:26 pm

I was starting to feel overwhelmed by the depth of some of the desperation and self-hatred that I'm seeing here, I've been forgetting my morning walk outside.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#283

Post by jimhabegger » Thu Apr 14, 2016 3:37 pm

"We need to offer young white men another choice. A choice that says they can be part of our joint efforts to change a social system that does not work for most of us. A choice that says there is more to life than getting ahead or getting by, that they can live with more integrity than by getting over, or getting back, and that there is more hope than just getting out. We need young white men to be active participants in our struggles for social justice. They bring vital energy, insight, creativity, passion, and caring to our efforts. But in order to embrace their participation we must see through their fear, their cynicism and their sense of entitlement. We must look past their appearance, their attitudes, their behavior to their hearts, to the caring and responsible young people that they truly are. And, we must help them counter those qualities that most sabotage their efforts to work with us in a spirit of mutuality, trust, and respect. In other words, we must draw them in rather than pushing them out. How do we counter fear, entitlement and cynicism? We have to start with their fear. If we deal with entitlement first their fear is only reinforced. They need safe places -- groups, classrooms, and one-on-one discussions-where, with adult facilitation, they can explore their feelings, both their hopes and their fears. They need to learn how to express the fear, to hear the fears that others share, and to see how the fear has been constructed through segregation, stereotypes, scapegoating, and the creation of economic scarcity."
Young White Men: Scared, Entitled, and Cynical -- a Deadly Combination

Safe spaces, and mentoring.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#284

Post by jimhabegger » Thu Apr 14, 2016 3:49 pm

This is making me sick. All the discussions I can find about the oppression of white men, frame the problem not as white men needing and deserving the same sympathy and justice as everyone else, but as "We need to take better care of white men because if we don't they might kill us."

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#285

Post by jimhabegger » Thu Apr 14, 2016 4:10 pm

This is scary. The only places where I'm seeing any awareness of the reality and wrongfulness of oppression of white men, are on the most venomous and poisonous men's advocacy sites, which make the Pit look like a feminism and social justice project.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#286

Post by jimhabegger » Thu Apr 14, 2016 4:28 pm

Now that career and monopoly feminism and social justice have vandalized white men's safe spaces in online atheism and online games, the Pit might be one of the few places left for oppressed white men to go, without going directly into the arms of sharks and wolves.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#287

Post by jimhabegger » Thu Apr 14, 2016 4:39 pm

The last few days I've been wondering how much I might be affected by the demonization, repression and oppression of white men. Just now I realized that I can see its effects on me, in my attraction to this forum, so much that it keeps me coming back, in spite of all the heckling and lack of friendly interest.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#288

Post by jimhabegger » Thu Apr 14, 2016 7:25 pm

I'm not sure how much more I'll be posting here, if at all. Yesterday a feeling came to me that being here might have something to do with my passion for justice. At the same time I had a feeling that maybe if there was any good I could do here, it's already been done. There might still be more for me to learn here, but it's taking too much away from the rest of my life, to keep doing it indefinitely.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#289

Post by jimhabegger » Thu Apr 14, 2016 7:48 pm

Origami Table
[youtube]
[/youtube]

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#290

Post by jimhabegger » Thu Apr 14, 2016 7:56 pm

[youtube]rUiZl8tHis4[/youtube]

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#291

Post by jimhabegger » Fri Apr 15, 2016 2:48 pm

Maybe sometimes repression and oppression help bring out the worst in people.

It looks to me like seeing men at our worst is helping me see more clearly what we can be at our best.

That gives me a new idea about how to respond to popular perversions of male and female qualities and capacities: by practicing and promoting better ways of using them. That also gives me a new insight into the possible value of man and woman role-playing.

----

I have a new idea for posting in the undead thread. It's to post some of the actual questions, and as much of the context for them as I can find, behind the statistics that are being used to demonize Muslims.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#292

Post by jimhabegger » Fri Apr 15, 2016 9:51 pm

I'm keeping my grandmother comments to myself, like The Grouch wants me to. Posting in my closet might not be exactly what he had in mind, but this is as far as I'll go for now. Anyway I'm not doing it only for him.

Looking past all the chest-pounding and teeth-baring, I'm seeing a lot of kindness, and people listening to each other, in the discussions about women's restrooms. It might have been happening all along, in all the discussions, without me noticing it.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#293

Post by jimhabegger » Sat Apr 16, 2016 8:07 pm

My first reason for coming here this time was because I remembered enjoying some conversations I had with some people here in 2013, and I was hoping for that to happen again. I've done everything I can think of to give that a chance, and I don't see it happening, or any reason now to think it ever will. I have some friendly interest in some people here, but if anyone has any sustainable friendly interest in me, I'm not seeing it. Not that I don't think it can or ever will happen. Just that I don't see any more for me to do about it, now.

Friendly suggestions would be welcome.

For I while I thought I might have some purpose here related to my justice interests, and the oppression of white people and of men. Even if that's true, I don't see any more for me to do about that, for now.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#294

Post by jimhabegger » Sat Apr 16, 2016 10:58 pm

In case anyone's interested:

Who speaks for Muslims? The role of the press in the creation and reporting of Muslim public opinion polls in the aftermath of London bombings in July 2005

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#295

Post by jimhabegger » Mon Apr 18, 2016 10:07 pm

Contents:
1. The Pit as role-playing fighting back against its adversaries.
2. "The Pit doesn't ban people."
3. The Pit as a refuge for oppressed white men.
4. What am I doing here?

1. The Pit as role-playing fighting back against its adversaries.

Most of it still looks like that to me, and I'm still not convinced that there's any more to it than that, in most of the maligning, muckraking and gossiping that goes on here. It does seem likely to me though, that some of the things people have been doing here, like fact-checking for example, have helped to reduce and counteract the harm being done in the name of feminism and social justice. Also, it means a lot to me that trying to damage people's lives is not popular here.

2. "The Pit doesn't ban people."

If that just means that part of what some people like about the Pit is that people aren't banned administratively, then I agree. That's part of the attraction for me, too. If it means that the Pit is less exclusive, less of an echo chamber, or less cruel and unfair to visitors it arbitrarily chooses to trample under, than FtB or or the A+ forums, then no.

The popularity of verbal abuse, without any internal or external restraints, combined with the interests of the owner or owners, effectively restricts the participation to a very narrow range of personalities. However true it may be, in some sense, that people who are excluded exclude themselves by their own choice, that's a red herring. Saying that they deserve to be excluded, if they aren't willing to endure the abuse, displays contempt for feminine qualities and interests. It's still a preference and a choice, by the owners and privileged members, for those others not to be included.

All it would take, for the Pit to be more inclusive if anyone really wanted it to be, would, would be for a few people to post friendly replies to people they see being ignored and/or battered. I've seen one person here who might do that occasionally, but even that has not been consistent.

I'm not saying that the Pit has to be inclusive. I'm saying that not banning people is nothing for anyone to brag about, if they aren't doing anything to help make the Pit less exclusive in the personalities it serves, and more friendly to more people who have concerns about the damage being done in the name of feminism and social justice, and an interest in doing something about it.

3. The Pit as a refuge for oppressed white men.

I've called it a "safe space," but if "safe space" implies some kind of psychological danger to its members if it's violated, I don't really think that applies. I do think that part of the attraction is having a place on the Internet that has not been vandalized or corrupted by career and monopoly feminism and social justice interests.

4. What am I doing here?

That keeps changing from one minute to the next. Most or all of my interests here have been posted somewhere in this thread. One of my current interests that I'm aware of is to see how much one person can do to help change popular behavior in an online forum. I don't have any real plan for that, other than to try to improve my own practice of the behavior I'm promoting, and post here in my closet, about my experiences.

I'm also thinking of trying to role-play the kinds of community development that I'm promoting, and posting about my experiences with that.

I need to work more on seeing and appreciating the good in what people are doing here, and finding ways to be part of it.

Another part of my interest in this forum is that I think it has already helped me see more clearly what men can be, at our best, and helped me move more in that direction. At the same time it might have helped me practice upholding my feminine side in the face of popular contempt for feminine qualities and capacities.

I had a thought that I might be able to contribute somehow to what this forum might be able to do for oppressed men, but I'm not sure what I can do about that, if anything.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#296

Post by jimhabegger » Tue Apr 19, 2016 3:06 pm

This is for anyone who might be using this forum to advance your demonizing and scapegoating careers.

I only just now became aware of what a huge industry that might be, and that what I'm doing and thinking of doing here might be stepping on your toes. That isn't what I'm trying to do, and I won't be campaigning against it, or trying to fight against it, but I won't be trying to accommodate it either.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#297

Post by jimhabegger » Tue Apr 19, 2016 11:19 pm

Now I want to set aside everything I've been thinking of doing here, to just learn to love people more, see and appreciate the best in them and what they're doing, and follow along.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#298

Post by jimhabegger » Sun May 01, 2016 2:11 am

Lsuoma, as I understand it, the Undead thread was originally a place to have free and open discussions about some things that were happening in atheist spaces, that were being repressed elsewhere. It seems to me that what matters is for anyone who wants to, to be able to discuss any topic they want to, any way they want to, with anyone who's interested.

I don't think that requires unlimited tolerance for disruptive behavior, and I think your tolerance goes far beyond what is necessary, so I don't see anything wrong with you Wonderizing someone if you think his behavior is too disruptive, especially when that really does not interfere at all with any discussions between that person and anyone who is volunteering for it.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#299

Post by jimhabegger » Sun May 01, 2016 2:27 am

It might seem unfair in a way, if the person isn't trying to be a pest, because it does deprive him of some opportunities for self-gratification and attention-seeking that everyone else has, but it isn't always possible to be perfectly fair to everyone in every way, and I don't think that self-gratification and attention seeking are part of what freedom of speech is all about. For me, freedom of speech is about free exchange of information and ideas, and everyone having free access to that. I don't think that Wonderizing someone interferes with any of that at all.

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Re: "God-centered community building" / "Jim's closet"

#300

Post by jimhabegger » Sun May 01, 2016 10:28 pm

Maybe more good happening here than I thought.

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