Steerzing in a New Direction...

Matt Cavanaugh
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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#1681

Post by Matt Cavanaugh »

Brive1987 wrote:
Matt Cavanaugh wrote:
Brive1987 wrote: Less old people died because they were either dead already or vaccinated - but it hit younger people harder because of increased transmissibility and lower vaccine rates.
Are there data showing an increase in IFR for younger age groups?
Have some fresh meat to devour 😅😂

Like you observed, there simply aren't many geriatrics left to cull.

But this is still pct of total deaths. I'm looking for delta in IFR within age groups.

Service Dog
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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#1682

Post by Service Dog »

Matt Cavanaugh wrote: family's from New Mexico dating back to not just when it was old Mexico, but to when it was New Spain. They owned like a million acres at one point.
If you count me as a friend-- you have 2 friends which match this description-- down to the amount of land. The first captain of the land grant is my ancestor. Only thing I have to show for it is my surname. And this Hispanic Heritage Month t-shirt. And this Thermos. And this ashtray. And the lamp. The thermos, the ashtray, the lamp... and the paddleball game. That's all I have. And this chair.

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#1683

Post by Matt Cavanaugh »

And by 'delta', I mean Δ for the Delta variant vs. Wuhan Original.

Service Dog
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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#1684

Post by Service Dog »

Trust the government science...

Here at the US Naval Observatory-- Kamala Harris chills on the porch with Space Camp kidz, while a Muzak version of Joan Osbourne's (What if God Were) One Of Us plinks-away in the background. Then one of our masked transbender midshipmxyn tells us how to determine the Moon's pronouns-- by what time of the month it is. "The sun goes around the Earth" says Captain Keith. "Thank yooou Captain Keeeith," says our Uncanny Valley Girl Kamala-- (age-appropriate kid-friendly banter still in Beta.)


screwtape
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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#1685

Post by screwtape »

fafnir wrote: Screwtape, I appreciate that that was a long post. If you feel like replying, probably the second half is where the main point I'm interested in is and where we aren't just going to throw rocks at each other.
I doubt either of us will convince the other, but maybe readers will be stimulated think on the matter a bit more deeply. Judging by the large number of posts that are not being displayed to me there will also be some frothing at the mouth with calumnies.

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#1686

Post by fafnir »

screwtape wrote: I doubt either of us will convince the other, but maybe readers will be stimulated think on the matter a bit more deeply. Judging by the large number of posts that are not being displayed to me there will also be some frothing at the mouth with calumnies.
I'm not sure convincing people should necessarily be the goal. One version of my position is that there are a bunch of core elements of this that pretty much just come down to culture and personal preference, for example, what is the correct balance between safety and liberty? I don't think that is something that there is a correct solution to. By the look of it, you skew more towards safety while I and some of the others here skew more towards liberty. There are obviously consequences of those choices that can be talked about, but everything is tradeoffs between choices and outcomes that can't objectively be rank ordered for goodness.

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#1687

Post by Matt Cavanaugh »

I doubt either of us will convince the other, but maybe readers will be stimulated think on the matter a bit more deeply. Judging by the large number of posts that are not being displayed to me there will also be some frothing at the mouth with calumnies.
Because the only possible reason someone could not accept Herr Doktor's gift of wisdom is because they haven't thought deeply enough on the matter. Or are selfish, uncivilized oafs. Or, just rabid lunatics.

After their garbage arguments and shit evidence fail to persuade, the haughty and arrogant inevitably resort to insult.

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#1688

Post by Matt Cavanaugh »

fafnir wrote:
screwtape wrote: I doubt either of us will convince the other, but maybe readers will be stimulated think on the matter a bit more deeply. Judging by the large number of posts that are not being displayed to me there will also be some frothing at the mouth with calumnies.
I'm not sure convincing people should necessarily be the goal. One version of my position is that there are a bunch of core elements of this that pretty much just come down to culture and personal preference, for example, what is the correct balance between safety and liberty? I don't think that is something that there is a correct solution to. By the look of it, you skew more towards safety while I and some of the others here skew more towards liberty. There are obviously consequences of those choices that can be talked about, but everything is tradeoffs between choices and outcomes that can't objectively be rank ordered for goodness.
screw would surely endorse the words of His Holiness, Pope Anthony I:
Fauci wrote:There comes a time when you do have to give up what you consider your individual right of making your own decision for the greater good of society.
The mask mandates, the house arrest, and now the compulsory injections -- none of which are supported by actual science -- have frequently been pronounced "for the good of the collective." It's obvious this is not just differences of opinion on how to balance public health with private freedom. Rather, the entire exercise has been motivated by a visceral rejection of Liberty and personal responsibility in favor of collectivism and blind obedience.

Yet we're the ones they accuse of 'politicizing' it.

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#1689

Post by fafnir »

Matt Cavanaugh wrote: The mask mandates, the house arrest, and now the compulsory injections -- none of which are supported by actual science -- have frequently been pronounced "for the good of the collective." It's obvious this is not just differences of opinion on how to balance public health with private freedom. Rather, the entire exercise has been motivated by a visceral rejection of Liberty and personal responsibility in favor of collectivism and blind obedience.
The idea that elites should get to unilaterally decide everything has been popular at the top of American society for 100 years at least. There are statements from Andrew Carnegie that are functionally the same as Bloomberg's idea that the poor needed to be heavily taxed for their own good so that smarter people could better spend their money for them.

John D
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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#1690

Post by John D »

All Lord of the Rings fans need to listen to this interview... and (PS - Dwarves are like Jews).


Service Dog
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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#1691

Post by Service Dog »

screwtape wrote: Judging by the large number of posts that are not being displayed to me there will also be some frothing at the mouth with calumnies.


hmmm... "a misrepresentation" . . . "false charges"

I see no reason to make representions or charges. And certainly-not misrepresent or falsely charge.

I am perfectly-content to let screwtape represent himself, in his own words, regarding: how he views the people who accept or refuse his needle.

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#1692

Post by Service Dog »

(Bloomberg) — Iceland is joining its Nordic peers in halting inoculations with Moderna Inc.’s Spikevax shot on concern over side effects. The Moderna jab, which has mostly been used in Iceland for second doses, won’t be used until more information over its safety has been collected, the chief epidemiologist said on Friday.

Sweden, Denmark and Finland have this week suspended the jabs for younger people because of the risk of heart inflammation as a potential side effect. Norway said men under 30 should consider choosing the Pfizer Inc.’s and BioNTech SE’s rival vaccine, and the other Nordic nations also recommended that as an alternative. Both vaccinations use messenger RNA technology to prompt an immune reaction.
https://citizenfreepress.com/breaking/i ... a-vaccine/

--
Singapore


--
Illinois


--
Australia


--
USofA

Study inadvertently shows vax stops working after 4 months:
https://alexberenson.substack.com/p/all ... e/comments

--

Service Dog
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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#1693

Post by Service Dog »

According to Facebook's own analytics tools, this Babylon Bee joke was visible to precisely ZERO of Babylon Bee's million Facebook subscribers-- when it was initially posted.




First they ignore you. Then they ignore you. Then they ignore you. Then you wish they were still just ignoring you.

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#1694

Post by Matt Cavanaugh »

Meanwhile, Indonesia's (19.7% civilized vaxxed) spike in cases rapidly reversed following widespread use of ivermectin:

Indonesia.jpg
(23.42 KiB) Downloaded 177 times

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#1695

Post by fafnir »

What does cases even mean when testing regimes are so different in different countries? It feels like numberwang:

John D
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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#1696

Post by John D »

screwtape should really change s/h/it's name to screwball. The ultimate in bizarre posts is the claim that s/h/it can't see everyone posts. Well this is because of s/h/it's blocking people. Fuck off screw.... you are a genuine piece of shit.

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#1697

Post by Lsuoma »

John D wrote: All Lord of the Rings fans need to listen to this interview... and (PS - Dwarves are like Jews).

How are the ol' taste buds doing today?

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#1698

Post by fafnir »

John D wrote: screwtape should really change s/h/it's name to screwball. The ultimate in bizarre posts is the claim that s/h/it can't see everyone posts. Well this is because of s/h/it's blocking people. Fuck off screw.... you are a genuine piece of shit.

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#1699

Post by John D »

Lsuoma wrote:
John D wrote: All Lord of the Rings fans need to listen to this interview... and (PS - Dwarves are like Jews).
How are the ol' taste buds doing today?
It is still odd. I think I can taste things better today....but most flavors are just salty. I still don't have my fucking PCR test back from the lab. They said it might take three days... so I will call them tomorrow to follow up. I went birding today and saw a Virginia Rail, Rufous Sided Towhee, and tons of immature White Crowned and White Throated sparrow that had not yet migrated. Also, about 30 Wood Ducks. Very nice. Nature marches on.

I also saw a green lizard that was about 9 inches long. I have NEVER seen a lizard in Michigan so this is a big deal. I called my biology professor friend and discussed this. We both agree that I saw an Iguana that someone must have let loose. There are no native green lizards in Michigan that are 9 inches long. Haha. So, the lizard is a bust, but the Virginia Rail is a good bird.

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#1700

Post by Lsuoma »

LMK when you see an Ivory-Billed Woodpecker...

John D
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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#1701

Post by John D »

Lsuoma wrote: LMK when you see an Ivory-Billed Woodpecker...
Will do. Planning a three month canoe trip in Louisiana.

Service Dog
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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#1702

Post by Service Dog »

John D wrote: ....my pistol safe. Finger print recognition.... put your finger on the scanner... and wack.... your gun pops out of the drawer read to go. Now I can keep it in battery and not worry about someone doing something stupid.

So my wife says...
https://media.patriots.win/post/Difi4RaH.jpeg

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#1703

Post by John D »

My PCR came back negative. I am pretty sure this means I had Covid but quickly smashed the virus. I also thinks this means I am not contagious. By the time I realized I might be sick my immune system, along with the vaccine, crushed it. I am not surprised by this test result.

I can't explain the very odd loss of taste. I have talked to a few people who have had the coof and they said it took a month before their taste returned.

Now I will always wonder if I really had the coof... but I am mostly confident that I did.

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#1704

Post by Matt Cavanaugh »

John D wrote: I went birding today and saw a Virginia Rail, Rufous Sided Towhee, and tons of immature White Crowned and White Throated sparrow that had not yet migrated. Also, about 30 Wood Ducks.
My GF's dad lived on Towhee Court. I never knew what Towhee was. Now I understand why the other streets in the neighborhood were named Blue Jay Way, Hummingbird Lane, etc.


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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#1705

Post by ThreeFlangedJavis »

fafnir wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 8:35 am
Matt Cavanaugh wrote: The mask mandates, the house arrest, and now the compulsory injections -- none of which are supported by actual science -- have frequently been pronounced "for the good of the collective." It's obvious this is not just differences of opinion on how to balance public health with private freedom. Rather, the entire exercise has been motivated by a visceral rejection of Liberty and personal responsibility in favor of collectivism and blind obedience.
The idea that elites should get to unilaterally decide everything has been popular at the top of American society for 100 years at least. There are statements from Andrew Carnegie that are functionally the same as Bloomberg's idea that the poor needed to be heavily taxed for their own good so that smarter people could better spend their money for them.
The more I see the more I suspect something more sinister going on. There are too many coincidental markers of Marcuse's blueprint to bringing about the "sustainable" society (communism). The superpowers need to be reduced to 3rd world conditions according to him. We hear the sustainability buzzword everywhere, talk of great resets and everyone being happy and having nothing. The West is experiencing demoralisation exactly as laid out by Yuri Bezmenov. It's all too consistent. It really makes me wonder who exactly is behind the Democrats because they are very clearly breaking down resistance through despair and demoralisation.

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#1706

Post by John D »

Matt Cavanaugh wrote:
John D wrote: I went birding today and saw a Virginia Rail, Rufous Sided Towhee, and tons of immature White Crowned and White Throated sparrow that had not yet migrated. Also, about 30 Wood Ducks.
My GF's dad lived on Towhee Court. I never knew what Towhee was. Now I understand why the other streets in the neighborhood were named Blue Jay Way, Hummingbird Lane, etc.
I don't see as many Towhee as I used to. Towhee actually like brushy edges of open fields. So.... human activity increased their favored environment. They used to be very common and I would see one almost every time I went out birding. But, now... more edges of farm fields are made up of woods. There is less manmade brush for the Towhee to do its foraging. They are always found in dense low brush... poking around for bugs.

I was just doing some internet "research" on the Rufous Sided Towhee... and I just found out they changed the name. It is now called the Eastern Towhee.

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#1707

Post by Lsuoma »

John D wrote:
Matt Cavanaugh wrote:
John D wrote: I went birding today and saw a Virginia Rail, Rufous Sided Towhee, and tons of immature White Crowned and White Throated sparrow that had not yet migrated. Also, about 30 Wood Ducks.
My GF's dad lived on Towhee Court. I never knew what Towhee was. Now I understand why the other streets in the neighborhood were named Blue Jay Way, Hummingbird Lane, etc.
I don't see as many Towhee as I used to. Towhee actually like brushy edges of open fields. So.... human activity increased their favored environment. They used to be very common and I would see one almost every time I went out birding. But, now... more edges of farm fields are made up of woods. There is less manmade brush for the Towhee to do its foraging. They are always found in dense low brush... poking around for bugs.

I was just doing some internet "research" on the Rufous Sided Towhee... and I just found out they changed the name. It is now called the Eastern Towhee.
We see loads of Spotted Towhee's - our house is surrounded by lavender bushes, and they love those. We feed bird seed to our local black-tailed deer, and the Towhees go for it big time. As do about 20 other species. Never counted them all, but there are lots. I'll have to do a list...

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#1708

Post by fafnir »

ThreeFlangedJavis wrote:
fafnir wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 8:35 am
Matt Cavanaugh wrote: The mask mandates, the house arrest, and now the compulsory injections -- none of which are supported by actual science -- have frequently been pronounced "for the good of the collective." It's obvious this is not just differences of opinion on how to balance public health with private freedom. Rather, the entire exercise has been motivated by a visceral rejection of Liberty and personal responsibility in favor of collectivism and blind obedience.
The idea that elites should get to unilaterally decide everything has been popular at the top of American society for 100 years at least. There are statements from Andrew Carnegie that are functionally the same as Bloomberg's idea that the poor needed to be heavily taxed for their own good so that smarter people could better spend their money for them.
The more I see the more I suspect something more sinister going on. There are too many coincidental markers of Marcuse's blueprint to bringing about the "sustainable" society (communism). The superpowers need to be reduced to 3rd world conditions according to him. We hear the sustainability buzzword everywhere, talk of great resets and everyone being happy and having nothing. The West is experiencing demoralisation exactly as laid out by Yuri Bezmenov. It's all too consistent. It really makes me wonder who exactly is behind the Democrats because they are very clearly breaking down resistance through despair and demoralisation.
My theory at the moment, and it is very much a work in progress..... You kind of have two strands in Marxism. One of them is focused on envy and pulling down the elites. Those people would have seen Wall Street, CIA, Zuckerberg etc as the enemy. You then have the internationalist utopians - Trots, Fabians etc. The internationalists realise the economics based, working class revolution has failed 100 years ago and begin to pivot towards race, gender, culture and so forth. By the early 60s that faction is taking over. What they succeed in doing is making international socialism even more compatible with international capitalism than it already was. Effectively global capitalism and new left socialism have been the same thing since the 90s at least, and arguably much longer.

In a sense, I think Bezmenov has it the wrong way around. The communists didn't subvert the capitalists, the capitalists subverted the communists. All the craziness in the world is global capitalism continuing to leverage radical left wing politics against barriers to trade.

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#1709

Post by Service Dog »

fafnir wrote: My theory at the moment...
I think you've done excellent 'Astronomy'-- you've catalogued the ideological bodies, tracked their trajectories-- you can extrapolate from these patterns-- their future paths.

But, as you derive from-that a general 'Physics' -- (what makes it all go 'round)-- I suspect an error.

I think you're accepting the claims of each ideological body-- as containing more truth or 'weight'-- than may be warranted.

(Continuing my Astronomy metaphor-- it's as-if an early astronomer correctly recorded the motion in the sky-- of Venus and Mars-- but paid too-much attention to the mythos of Venus and Mars-- in his explanation of their movement. "Mars loves Venus, so he pursues her-- but she fears his violent nature & flees toward Orion.")

Ideologues (by definition?!) tend to publicize themselves... as the pure-embodiment of... whatever-they-espouse.

But, in reality, they tend to compromise their ideals & respond-to real world incentives (which often contradict their lofty stated principles.)

I'm saying that all the strands of marxism, socialism, utopianism, progressivism... are just WORDS.

The extremist purist fundamentalist content of those Words-- have little or no relation to the actual behavior of the Commie. It's all just rationalization and noise.
Like a SMASH CAPITALISM sticker on a vapid celebrity's iPhone.

And so...
ThreeFlangedJavis wrote: The more I see the more I suspect something more sinister going on. There are too many coincidental markers of Marcuse's blueprint to bringing about the "sustainable" society (communism).
I'm not sure whether Marcuse's blueprint is being 'followed'... vs. whether Marcuse tried to take credit for the direction the earth spins & where each light twinkles in the sky... as manifestations of -his- new & improved now!more!scientific! scientific-communism.

--

Man-- I hope I'm making sense. I don't wanna figure-out how to say this in a less convoluted way.

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#1710

Post by Service Dog »

John D wrote: So - Dave Chappelle is really a gifted performer. I don't always agree with some of his use of "facts", but he really is some kind of genius. Just watch his latest Netflix special (Filmed in Detroit by the way). Fantastic performance. Highly recommended,
Just watched it. I agree with you. I've heard marketing-guru guys say... that people will pay you... to powerfully-express... the things they wish they could say themselves.

That's what Chappelle does, exceedingly well.

Even things which struck-me as him 'hitting wrong notes'... probably have a function in his design. For example-- he made an out-of-date & cliched 'Mike Pence is gay' joke... which he probably put _right_there_ ...at just the right moment... to reassure a large portion of the audience that he hadn't simply Gone Republican... to keep them listening & trusting him.

Buuuut...

I've heard arguments that Floyd Mayweather is not the greatest boxer of all time... because he carefully currated who he fought/ rather than facing all-comers. And, in each match, he cowardly/wisely avoided exposing his weaknesses... rather than boldy hammering and getting-hammered until one man prevails.

Chappelle's a smart coward-- when it comes to mocking Biden, Kamala, Fauci, Covid, the Left, Obama.

His 'brave' 'risk-taking' on LGBT stuff might not be actual all-around bravery. More like a calculated risk... that he only has to seem brave on one front/ to get (unearned) full credit as a truth-teller.

Brive1987
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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#1711

Post by Brive1987 »

Reviewing Rebecca Watson’s Twitter, I was interested to see what a high performing Apple exec-cuck’s IT setup looks like.

😂😐

img][/img]


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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#1712

Post by fafnir »

Service Dog wrote: The extremist purist fundamentalist content of those Words-- have little or no relation to the actual behavior of the Commie. It's all just rationalization and noise.
Like a SMASH CAPITALISM sticker on a vapid celebrity's iPhone.
The story of incentives is certainly part of it. I'm not sure ideas can be minimized either. Can one not trace the history of ideas like equality, and world government and say that is one story of how we got where we are? I don't think the world run on legions of people saying "I am going to try to normalize some deviant sexuality today in order to undermine the foundations of the western family to help grease the wheels of global capital". The ideas are important, just as culture is important. Yes, these ideas are influenced by incentives..... but they aren't just meaningless interchangeable names either.

ThreeFlangedJavis
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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#1713

Post by ThreeFlangedJavis »

fafnir wrote:
Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:37 pm
ThreeFlangedJavis wrote:
fafnir wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 8:35 am
Matt Cavanaugh wrote: The mask mandates, the house arrest, and now the compulsory injections -- none of which are supported by actual science -- have frequently been pronounced "for the good of the collective." It's obvious this is not just differences of opinion on how to balance public health with private freedom. Rather, the entire exercise has been motivated by a visceral rejection of Liberty and personal responsibility in favor of collectivism and blind obedience.
The idea that elites should get to unilaterally decide everything has been popular at the top of American society for 100 years at least. There are statements from Andrew Carnegie that are functionally the same as Bloomberg's idea that the poor needed to be heavily taxed for their own good so that smarter people could better spend their money for them.
The more I see the more I suspect something more sinister going on. There are too many coincidental markers of Marcuse's blueprint to bringing about the "sustainable" society (communism). The superpowers need to be reduced to 3rd world conditions according to him. We hear the sustainability buzzword everywhere, talk of great resets and everyone being happy and having nothing. The West is experiencing demoralisation exactly as laid out by Yuri Bezmenov. It's all too consistent. It really makes me wonder who exactly is behind the Democrats because they are very clearly breaking down resistance through despair and demoralisation.
My theory at the moment, and it is very much a work in progress..... You kind of have two strands in Marxism. One of them is focused on envy and pulling down the elites. Those people would have seen Wall Street, CIA, Zuckerberg etc as the enemy. You then have the internationalist utopians - Trots, Fabians etc. The internationalists realise the economics based, working class revolution has failed 100 years ago and begin to pivot towards race, gender, culture and so forth. By the early 60s that faction is taking over. What they succeed in doing is making international socialism even more compatible with international capitalism than it already was. Effectively global capitalism and new left socialism have been the same thing since the 90s at least, and arguably much longer.

In a sense, I think Bezmenov has it the wrong way around. The communists didn't subvert the capitalists, the capitalists subverted the communists. All the craziness in the world is global capitalism continuing to leverage radical left wing politics against barriers to trade.
That would be the most optimistic assessment AFAIAC, but I fear you may not be quite right. I think the distinction between the old bolshies and the "cultural Marxist" types is quite well known, but the end goal is not necessarily that different. As Service Dog says there is a whole spectrum of political animals who embody aspects of the ideology, but I tend toward the idea that there is evidence of an underlying instigating force moving everything toward the Marcusian society. The Marcusian language is there, CRT is infiltrating everything and the process of demoralisation is well advanced. My suspicion is that the globalist capitalists are acting from a mix of greedy opportunism and paternalism without appreciating the extent to which they are actually serving the ends of the Marxists. I think your conclusion about capitalists subverting the communists is wrong. There is a very real possibility of the next generation being firmly indoctrinated in Critical Theory. CT is not something which is easily taught alongside other theories as one alternative, it is a totalising theory which demands supremacy and fundamentally changes the way people think. I think Service Dog is partially correct in a way in thinking that Marcuse merely reflected an organic process. The process is organic once it is INSTIGATED. It takes a strategy to get the underlying theory into academia and a entryism toolkit to deploy in society.

Brive1987
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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#1714

Post by Brive1987 »

Nothing like a UK trade unionist to talk sense.

Maybe what we need are largely self contained nation states, celebrating a historical and cultural based commonality which centres on locally held values and belief.



Crazy stuff.

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#1715

Post by Brive1987 »

Sydney exited lockdown today after 107 days. Well, for some/most. I didn’t get to leave my house.

Regardless. I guess the goal was old fashioned injected tentacle-rape rather than permanent incarceration?

The whole thing is fucked up. And Chinese spawned. Even if seeded with American money.

You should all be ashamed.

I’m investigating light-weight trekking while I still have the knees to walk 8min:30sec kilometres. Anything to get the hell out of here.

411 be damned.

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#1716

Post by fafnir »

ThreeFlangedJavis wrote: That would be the most optimistic assessment AFAIAC, but I fear you may not be quite right. I think the distinction between the old bolshies and the "cultural Marxist" types is quite well known, but the end goal is not necessarily that different. As Service Dog says there is a whole spectrum of political animals who embody aspects of the ideology, but I tend toward the idea that there is evidence of an underlying instigating force moving everything toward the Marcusian society. The Marcusian language is there, CRT is infiltrating everything and the process of demoralisation is well advanced. My suspicion is that the globalist capitalists are acting from a mix of greedy opportunism and paternalism without appreciating the extent to which they are actually serving the ends of the Marxists.
Is it optimistic? I don't know. I just wonder how ignorant the Andrew Carnegie's and Bill Gates's of this world actually are. They've been talking about ideas like global government and having effectively an enlightened dictatorship of the elite for well over 100 years. These people weren't communists by any means, but funded marxists and communists.... brought them to the US, placed them in academia. Did the Marxists co-opt the elite, or did the elite co-opt the marxist? I say it's more the latter than the former.

One example of who is in power..... BLM had lots of power and impact when they were calling all white people racist and helping kick Trump out. Now that they are saying that the vaccine is racist, how much power do they actually have that couldn't be withdrawn the moment they went off message? If trans causes somehow started to be a hindrance to globalism those activists would suddenly find that they are powerless too. If climate change activism threatened globalism, Gretta would stop appearing on the front page of newspapers, wouldn't be asked to shout at the UN with their own talking points and would cease to be boosted by the algorithm. The reason all these people can recommend insane things that don't stand 30 seconds of scrutiny and have terrible consequences when implemented is that they are being protected.
ThreeFlangedJavis wrote: I think your conclusion about capitalists subverting the communists is wrong. There is a very real possibility of the next generation being firmly indoctrinated in Critical Theory.
I don't see that oligarcal elites subverting the communists/marxists etc... is incompatible with critical theory taking over. Critical theory doesn't say "topple the Tzar". Critical theory says the Tzar need to have minute and absolute control over the lives of every single peasant to make sure their views are compatible with the views of the enlightened circle in Moscow.
ThreeFlangedJavis wrote: CT is not something which is easily taught alongside other theories as one alternative, it is a totalising theory which demands supremacy and fundamentally changes the way people think.
I agree, but I don't think it threatens globalist oligarchs either. It is a system for identifying different classes of kulaks who can be blamed for the downsides of globalism and the enactment of elite social policy.
ThreeFlangedJavis wrote: I think Service Dog is partially correct in a way in thinking that Marcuse merely reflected an organic process. The process is organic once it is INSTIGATED. It takes a strategy to get the underlying theory into academia and a entryism toolkit to deploy in society.
And lots of funding and friends in high places.

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#1717

Post by fafnir »

Brive1987 wrote: Nothing like a UK trade unionist to talk sense.

Maybe what we need are largely self contained nation states, celebrating a historical and cultural based commonality which centres on locally held values and belief.



Crazy stuff.
Sounds like Fascism to me. This is actual literal violence!

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#1718

Post by fafnir »

By the way, has anybody else read about the life of Aldous Huxley's brother Julian? I'd never looked into this before, but it looks suspiciously like Brave New World was a takedown of his brothers views and work with UNESCO. I can only imagine things must have been awkward between them.

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#1719

Post by Service Dog »

fafnir wrote: I'm not sure ideas can be minimized either. ...the history of ideas like equality, and world government... is one story of how we got where we are?

I don't think the world [can] run on legions of people saying "I am going to try to normalize some deviant sexuality today in order to undermine the foundations of the western family to help grease the wheels of global capital". The ideas are important, just as culture is important. ... these ideas ... aren't just meaningless interchangeable names either.
In trying to explain my tentative objection to your tentative theory... I overstated how-much I disagree with you.

I agree with your replies, too.

The specific content of ideologues' manifestos Does matter.

I still warn-against taking their words at face-value.

For example-- according to their own brouchures-- read at face value-- "Marxism" and "Capitalism" are polar opposites. Each polar ice cap... constantly calving-off icebergs... sub-philosophies (each with a face-value "tip" and an additional unseen shape below-the-surface!) which crash-into each other somewhere around the equator. Further-breaking, or merging, or subsuming or sinking or melting.

Unless "Marxism" and "Capitalism" are the same damn pole... a single body of concepts expressed around-the-same-time by a cohort of academic colleagues who all contributed to each-other's manifestos-- if-only by acting as foils for each-other.

And put-into-practice by International Communists and Global Monopoly Capitalists... who were all playing the same sink-or-get-sunk winner-takes-all game of 'Battleship'.

In which case (as you said, faf) the question becomes-- who really won?

--

Last night I slept, but didn't rest. Something about watching Dave Chappelle bothered my sleep. He's barking-at icebergs.

He might be belittling-himself by getting-fixated on that stuff.

or

He's got an astute, up-close view of the purple-haired Trans radical-left iceberg... sinking people & institutions he loves. But he's also perched atop his own Black identity-politics iceberg. Which is sometimes wildly-successful in the demolition derby/ but also sometimes appallingly pathetic & self-destructive...

holy shit... is his recent special a trojan-horse critique of his own black iceberg? They'd keelhaul him for mutiny, if he directly criticized them.

But as-long-as he confines his complaints-- to a safe, external LGBT target-- he can point-out flaws which apply to his own faction, too.

One part of the show... which I initially thought was hokey & moldy... was Chappelle reciting the dictionary definition of feminist-- and saying "I am a feminist"-- in response to those who say men shouldn't be listened-to on women's issues. Chappelle must know the same logic also applies to whether blacks should heed what whites have to say. He found a way to sneak-in a forbidden opinion.

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#1720

Post by Fegg »

fafnir wrote: By the way, has anybody else read about the life of Aldous Huxley's brother Julian? I'd never looked into this before, but it looks suspiciously like Brave New World was a takedown of his brothers views and work with UNESCO. I can only imagine things must have been awkward between them.
I have here the memorial volume of speeches by Aldous Huxley's friends and family in a meeting nearly a month after his death edited by Julian Huxley. I can quote from Julian's speech:

"I want to speak of Aldous as a brother and a personality, a prophet and a great thinker who was also a truly whole man.
From early boyhood, I knew in some intuitive way that Aldous possessed some inate superiority and moved on a different level of being from us other children. This recognition dawned when Aldous was five and I was a prep school boy of twelve: and it remained for the rest of his life.
As a child, he spent a good deal of his time just sitting quietly, contemplating the strangeness of things. His godmother once saw him gazing out the window, and asked what he was thinking about. He looked round, said the one word Skin, and turned his gaze out through the window again.
This preoccupation with the strange and the bizarre and the improbable and the extraordinary, stayed with him throughout his life. In later years, however, it developed and merged into something more comprehensive - a fascinated recognition of the fundamental mystery at the heart of things. He was never a mystic in any exclusive orin any wooly sense, though he was keenly interested in the facts of mystical experience. He was equally fascinated by the hard facts revealed by scientific discovery and the new clarity of understanding which they provided. But science abolishes only the false mysteries of mere failure to understand how existence works. The more it discovers and the more comprehension it gives us of the mechanisms of existence, the more clearly does the mystery of existence itself stand out. It was this combination of increasing comprehensibility of operative detail with increasingly obvious mysteriousness of the process itself, this contrast between luminous science and numinous existence, which came to fascinate Aldous ever more compellingly as his thought developed.
.....
Most people seem to imagine that Aldous came to me for help over the biological facts and ideas he utilized so brilliantly in Brave New World and elsewhere in his novels and essays. This was not so. He picked them all up from his miscellaneous reading and from occasional discussions with me and a few other biologists, from which we profited as much as he.
His uniqueness lay in his universalism. He was able to take all knowledge for his province.What is more, he was able to integrate this astonishing range of fact and idea to give him a comprehensive vision of man and his possibilities, including the possibilities of vision itself, which he set forth in The Art of Seeing.
.....
Only this year, when I was talking about Rachael Carson's Silent Spring, and explaining how our butterflies and poppies and hedgerow flowers were disappearingand our song birds and falcons were being poisoned by pesticides, he said "It is dreadful: they are destroying half the basis of English poetry"

Of course this in a eulogy, but there is obviously a to of genuine fondness and respect here.

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#1721

Post by Matt Cavanaugh »

Brive1987 wrote: Reviewing Rebecca Watson’s Twitter, I was interested to see what a high performing Apple exec-cuck’s IT setup looks like.

😂😐

img][/img]
Whatever the opposite of "muscle shirt" would be called, that's what he's wearing.

At least Indie looks as if he's vicariously enjoying the effects of Ativan.

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#1722

Post by fafnir »

Service Dog wrote: I still warn-against taking their words at face-value.
That's fine. I don't particularly disagree. One of the things that always astounds me is how candide they are in their publications. It's like Hillary Clinton talking to Goldman Sachs thinking nobody will find out, only lots of this stuff is published by them and available from Amazon or in the About section of their website. A while back my mother was arguing with me that the leaders of BLM couldn't be Marxists who want to overthrow global capitalism because investigative journalists would have discovered it and published it in The Guardian. They don't have to try very hard to render all this essentially invisible to most people.

We are peeling back an onion. My angle is looking at how fundamental ideas like equality, and liberty change over time and are associated with one political grouping and then another. I'm not sure it's important whether one ever gets to the heart of the onion. Maybe at that level, it has many hearts?
Service Dog wrote: In which case (as you said, faf) the question becomes-- who really won?
That is on the border of conspiracy theory territory, and obviously one can't know for sure. I would say it's like the "is light a wave or a particle" question. I think it's the wrong question, or the question has implicit assumptions that may not be true. I'm inclined now to see the last 100 years of politics more in terms of elitism/populism, constrained vision/unconstrained vision, masculine/feminine. 500 years ago, elites would entertain themselves redrawing the map of the world with armies. Now they play the same game with bureaucrats, sociologists and NGOs.

I guess I see the capitalists as just being the feudal barons and their courts in different cloaks. At some times the new ideas from Martin Luther are the fad at court, at other times the court is concerned about spies and herecies, then again at other times it has been the excitement and possibilities of the new world. For the last 100+ years it's been the idea of a single court that is decoupled from having to pretend to cater to the prejudices and world view of ordinary people where grand social plans can be played out as if they were the God's in a 1960s film of a Greek myth. I'm struggling to think of an idea that has captured these people that hasn't offered the possibility of entrenching their power, gaining new power, undermining enemies or allowed them to play God. To bring back a reference from the grave, Cersei Lannister might have welcomed critical theory into court and used it as a pretext to take action she planned to take anyway, but I don't see her being captured by it. Any king who can be blinded by such an ideology to the demands of power, or would put it before power is a weak king and will not stay king for long. I don't think these people are weak.

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#1723

Post by Service Dog »

That dude beat Steve Shives in the Steve Shives lookalike contest.

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#1724

Post by fafnir »

Brive1987 wrote: Reviewing Rebecca Watson’s Twitter, I was interested to see what a high performing Apple exec-cuck’s IT setup looks like.

😂😐

img][/img]

I'm getting strong Mr Elyse Wojnowski-Anders vibes.

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#1725

Post by fafnir »

Fegg wrote: Of course this in a eulogy, but there is obviously a to of genuine fondness and respect here.
You are right. I had to write a eulogy not long ago and it brings it back.

One can say all those nice things, and be a eugenicist who wants to build a planned world where elites allocate people to their jobs and breed them for particular functions. I'm sure Hitler was kind to dogs. It's a strange world. Is the gulf between us and them so great that they seem mad, or do they live so free from the ordinary constraints of life that their minds became unmoored at some point and they have mistaken themselves for Gods?

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#1726

Post by MarcusAu »

Brive1987 wrote: Reviewing Rebecca Watson’s Twitter...
I think either November or December will be the 10 year anniversary.

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#1727

Post by MarcusAu »

I'm still undecided on the Derek and Clive remake...


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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#1728

Post by Service Dog »

Matt Cavanaugh wrote: Whatever the opposite of "muscle shirt" would be called, that's what he's wearing.
I was momentarily concerned that my arms have atrophied to match his.

Glanced-up at the mirror & was relieved to see the biceps rips in my bathrobe.


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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#1729

Post by Lsuoma »

MarcusAu wrote:
Brive1987 wrote: Reviewing Rebecca Watson’s Twitter...
I think either November or December will be the 10 year anniversary.
The Pit turns 10 in July 2022.

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#1730

Post by fafnir »

Lsuoma wrote:
MarcusAu wrote:
Brive1987 wrote: Reviewing Rebecca Watson’s Twitter...
I think either November or December will be the 10 year anniversary.
The Pit turns 10 in July 2022.
Mozart wrote his first symphony when he was 8, and mohammed had sex with Aisha when she was 9. You guys are old.

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#1731

Post by Service Dog »

Got an email today-- from the company I worked-for last week.

They want to do a "pre-employment" security screening background check. A little late.

--

I've got a couple days of work next week. Don't know the company, the client, or what I'll be doing. $450 to $500 per day seems to be the new going rate. Before lockdown, vax mandates, inflation, labor shortages... it was $350 to $400.

The woman who hired me-- is someone I've known slightly for 5 years. In that time she has been at Director a 3 different companies... just-below Partner. Hired me each place, for occasional work. She seemed like an adult white lady. Grown up clothes, professional attitude, not overwhelmed. A white collar 'mom' type. British husband. She's way too fat to be glamorous-- but unwilling to be frumpy-- she wears brightly colored designer dresses-- modest cuts, but not wallflowerish.

One company hired the fat lady amid a lawsuit scandal in the news. They had given a woman a big promotion to Director-- and when that woman immediately disclosed she was pregnant & couldn't give the expected full commitment to the job/ they demoted her back to her previous role.

The fat lady was hired as the next Director-- told she'd have the power to change the company culture, clean house, repair the self-inflicted damage. In reality, the partners wanted her to change nothing & turn a blind eye to their coked-out aging-gay vapidity & corruption. I was far below her in rank-- but she knew I could see what was going-on, so she was able to commiserate with me... without having to break any confidentiality by explaining the mess. Most of the staff were Gen Z kids with zero clue about anything. She resigned in less than 5 months.

And so...
---

Looking at her social media now-- she/her pronouns-- I see she had a baby early this year. Started teaching yoga remotely. With a cardboard & sharpie Black Trans Lives Matter sign in the background. She has a facebook post admonishing her fellow white yoga instructors to not use the word 'Namaste'. (Ok, but why is it ok for them to teach yoga at-all, then?)


She posted a bumper-sticker-slogan type of image on Facebook-- saying January 6 was a violent coup attempt & the racist police treated the terrorists gently because they were white. Another Facebook bumper sticker from last year-- says Trump is guilty of "manslaughter" of 200,000 Americans with Covid.

Aaand another bumper sticker, after the election, about those who questioned the results: ""forget you know me. we are done. you are canceled from my life. this isn't a disagreement on policy, you support a dictatorship."

That puts a new spin on our relationship. Time to purge my feelings of comradery, personal loyalty, gratitude that she remembers me & hires me-- wherever she goes. And my assumption that we're on-the-same page about mutual respect & what the world looks-like. What's sensible & what's absurd.

I see no external reason to give a rat's ass about whether I do a good or bad job. Whether I even show-up. Only my internal sense of doing a good job applies-- just-because I feel like it. But no obligation. If my whim changes, zero guilt. Wander off at random, don't tell anyone, don't look back, go watch dogs at the park. The bitch fired me last winter & doesn't even know it. Or fired she/her self?

I don't feel fiery. I feel this is a 'bummer'.
--

Late last night I watched Ben Shapiro debate Ana Kasparian at a Chamber of Commerce event. It was toothless fare, for an out-of-touch geriatric audience. Last year, the Chamber of Commerce joined forces with their supposed AFL-CIO union opponents-- in a conspiracy to deny Trump a fair election, according to that TIME Magazine article. To that extent: Shapiro & Kasaparian & the Chamber of Commerce are all on the same side.

At one point, Ben Shapiro cited a social science study or survey-- reporting that Americans of every political stripe-- feel that they cannot state their true feelings & beliefs in public & at work-- for-fear of being punished. EXCEPT for the Far Left of the spectrum, who feel they can blurt their opinions without suffering repercussions & police everyone-else.

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#1732

Post by ThreeFlangedJavis »

Is this getting any exposure? Unless there's some missing info here it's a disgusting lapse in oversight. Your CDC is expending an awful lot of effort forcing people to get a vaccine they can't even take the time to ensure is administered properly. Turns out the heart complications from the vaccine are very likely caused by improper injection. The CDC and authorities in the UK recommend AGAINST aspirating the needle (withdrawing syringe plunger slightly) to check for blood which would indicate injection into a blood vessel. That recommendation is explicitly contrary to the vaccine manufacturers' guidelines because you definitely don't want the vaccine flowing around the bloodstream. Incredible!

Matt Cavanaugh
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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#1733

Post by Matt Cavanaugh »

Everything this woman does is faked. (Just ask Willie Brown.)

Kamala Harris's NASA video featured child actors

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#1734

Post by MarcusAu »

Judging by the results - this Ivermectin stuff seems to be some kind of wonder drug...


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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#1735

Post by Brive1987 »

MarcusAu wrote: Judging by the results - this Ivermectin stuff seems to be some kind of wonder drug...

Perfect accompanying reading.

https://www.amazon.com.au/Totem-David-M ... B0057AEF3G?

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#1736

Post by fafnir »

"Late last night I watched Ben Shapiro debate Ana Kasparian at a Chamber of Commerce event. It was toothless fare, for an out-of-touch geriatric audience. Last year, the Chamber of Commerce joined forces with their supposed AFL-CIO union opponents-- in a conspiracy to deny Trump a fair election, according to that TIME Magazine article. To that extent: Shapiro & Kasaparian & the Chamber of Commerce are all on the same side."
The house always wins. The important arguments within and between elites. The Trumpist world view is non-elite. To win, it needs to be picked up by some non-negligible faction of elites.

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#1737

Post by ThreeFlangedJavis »

fafnir wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:31 am
"Late last night I watched Ben Shapiro debate Ana Kasparian at a Chamber of Commerce event. It was toothless fare, for an out-of-touch geriatric audience. Last year, the Chamber of Commerce joined forces with their supposed AFL-CIO union opponents-- in a conspiracy to deny Trump a fair election, according to that TIME Magazine article. To that extent: Shapiro & Kasaparian & the Chamber of Commerce are all on the same side."
The house always wins. The important arguments within and between elites. The Trumpist world view is non-elite. To win, it needs to be picked up by some non-negligible faction of elites.
It just needs enough voters to see the obvious. I think most politicians are only honorary elites being fed crumbs and if given the choice between the electoral guillotine and seeing the light the light will be seen. That said, it is depressing how powerful the establishment machine is and how easily it has managed to crush opposition with it's ownership of the press. Things can turn in a relative instant though. There are still a whole lot more of us than there are of them and you could look at the contemporary upheavals with a positive spin. You could conclude that the string-pullers have been forced out into the open and the commoner is being hit hard in the wallet, called racist and having their kids taught self-loathing and racism. The tactics and corruption of the Federal law enforcement bodies in the US and of the security services in some other countries is being exposed in a way I've never seen before. The problem is Trump though. He instinctively sees some of the problems with globalism and is bold enough to tackle them, but I don't think he understands the whole picture and he's a bit inept when it comes to dealing with two-faced political "friends". His starkly obvious deflecting waffle when presented with his mistakes is a liability as well. He is excellent at working a crowd but has no clue how to stay afloat in the Swamp. He lost out when he dumped Bannon. I can't see any extra-establishment candidates in the UK or US who combine Trump's appreciation of the elite problem with government-ready management skills. I don't yet trust people like Desantis, Cruz or Nigel Farrage. Farrage has the right instincts but he treads too lightly on some issues out of fear of being called a bigot.

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#1738

Post by fafnir »

ThreeFlangedJavis wrote: You could conclude that the string-pullers have been forced out into the open and the commoner is being hit hard in the wallet, called racist and having their kids taught self-loathing and racism
Have you ever read the Rivers of Blood speech by Enoch Powell. It's from the UK in 1968. The section I always remember is this:
“Eight years ago in a respectable street in Wolverhampton a house was sold to a Negro. Now only one white (a woman old-age pensioner) lives there. This is her story. She lost her husband and both her sons in the war. So she turned her seven-roomed house, her only asset, into a boarding house. She worked hard and did well, paid off her mortgage and began to put something by for her old age. Then the immigrants moved in. With growing fear, she saw one house after another taken over. The quiet street became a place of noise and confusion. Regretfully, her white tenants moved out.

“The day after the last one left, she was awakened at 7am by two Negroes who wanted to use her 'phone to contact their employer. When she refused, as she would have refused any stranger at such an hour, she was abused and feared she would have been attacked but for the chain on her
door. Immigrant families have tried to rent rooms in her house, but she always refused. Her little store of money went, and after paying rates, she has less than £2 per week. “She went to apply for a rate reduction and was seen by a young girl, who on hearing she had a seven-roomed house, suggested she should let part of it. When she said the only people she could get were Negroes, the girl said, "Racial prejudice won't get you anywhere in this country." So she went home.

“The telephone is her lifeline. Her family pay the bill, and help her out as best they can. Immigrants have offered to buy her house - at a price which the prospective landlord would be able to recover from his tenants in weeks, or at most a few months. She is becoming afraid to go out. Windows are broken. She finds excreta pushed through her letter box. When she goes to the shops, she is followed by children, charming, wide-grinning piccaninnies. They cannot speak English, but one word they know. "Racialist," they chant. When the new Race Relations Bill is passed, this woman is convinced she will go to prison. And is she so wrong? I begin to wonder.”
Time has obvious made the language seem a little spicy. 42 years later in 2010, a similar woman came up to Gordon Brown, then on the campaign train to remain Prime Minister. He was caught on a hot mic referring to as a "bigoted woman". He was an old Labour party guy, supposedly representative of the working man and yet he despised working people as they actually are.

In the UK there has been 60 years of such people being written off as bigots by enlightened elites, as the bigots fears gradually materialised. For 60 years ordinary people who have expressed ordinary worries have been successfully dismissed as ghastly racists who should be denied the oxygen of publicising their repellant views. Their kids were taught they were racist. What is different now?
ThreeFlangedJavis wrote: The problem is Trump though. He instinctively sees some of the problems with globalism and is bold enough to tackle them, but I don't think he understands the whole picture and he's a bit inept when it comes to dealing with two-faced political "friends". His starkly obvious deflecting waffle when presented with his mistakes is a liability as well. He is excellent at working a crowd but has no clue how to stay afloat in the Swamp. He lost out when he dumped Bannon. I can't see any extra-establishment candidates in the UK or US who combine Trump's appreciation of the elite problem with government-ready management skills. I don't yet trust people like Desantis, Cruz or Nigel Farrage. Farrage has the right instincts but he treads too lightly on some issues out of fear of being called a bigot.
I think somebody, anybody in the White House who is able to see and straightforwardly talk about at least some aspect of the problem is worthwhile. The problem has been made undiscussable since WWII. While it is undiscussable, it won't be fixed. Whether he or Farage could have been better, I don't know. I guess only Allah is perfect. Nobody did do better than them though, so I flip it around and I'm glad they didn't do worse.

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#1739

Post by fafnir »

Incidentally, it occurs to me that the obvious rebuttal is that the Enoch Powell story eventually leads to Brexit. That only happened because competing globalists tried to be clever and so little feared and respected the bigoted old woman that they thought they could use her in Globalist infighting. Does anybody see the US population being offered a referendum on stepping back from Globalism or limiting immigration or any of the other related issues? Without help from the elite, no amount of calling people racist is going to bring the house of cards down.

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#1740

Post by Service Dog »

https://media.patriots.win/post/tMQoum6k.jpeg


The mainstream left has prohibited use-of timeless building-blocks of humor: bodily functions & parts, sexuality, mocking human foibles, 'punching down'.

I'm sure many break their own rules-- they'll reshare this image & laugh-at Ben Shapiro for being a fag.

But-- my point is-- the comedians-as-unfunny-propagandists might not initially set-out to be stooges for The Man.

The might begin by self-censoring all sorts of transgressive options. And all that's left is Approved Talking Points.

The Right is funnier by default-- they can still use the classic naughty ingredients. AND it becomes a political victory to do so.

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