Steerzing in a New Direction...

[John D]

Mrs. Mooney has a pie shop.
Does a business, but I notice something weird.
Lately, all her neighbors cats have disappeared.
Have to hand it to her!
What I calls,
enterprise!
Poppin' pussies into pies!

Haha.

[Matt Cavanaugh]

Victor Hugo would fit in perfectly with today's US Democratic Party.

[Matt Cavanaugh]

I am one of those people. I haven't seen nearly enough live, but what I've seen, I've loved. The bits in Sweeney Todd where he unknowingly kills his wife, and then realises what Mrs Lovett has done. I saw Follies, and I've seen Into The Woods a few times.

Sweeney Todd is also in my top ten list. I can't find the video version with the original cast. It included the amazing Angela Lansbury and unbeatable Len Cariou. Here is the soundtrack. There is a live video recording of this. So great.... I just can't find it on Youtube right now. I have seen Todd twice live. The more recent film with Jonny Depp has good moments... but... as usual... this film lacks the right chemistry and energy. It also leaves out some great songs. Here is the original cast recording. You can get most of the plot by just listening to the recording.

What are the top ten? : Sweeny Todd, Passion, Les Mis, West Side Story, Chicago, Oklahoma, Music Man, How to Succeeded in Business, Avenue Q, Oliver.... I guess. hmmmmm.

I saw Sweeney Todd on Broadway when it came out. That's what school field trips were like back then when you lived 40 minutes from the Big Apple.

Cool set and special bloody effects. That all the praise I can muster. As for the 'music', I hate all that grating, atonal shit. But I'm happy for you.

Interesting anecdote: On the bus trip home, one of my buddies sang the entire show from start to finish in his rich baritone. We asked how he'd learned those song before seeing the show. He said, 'I only just heard them now.' He wasn't joking.


Other anecdote: When I was thirteen, I played Mr. Bratt in How To Succeed, which me and a bunch of other minors put on all by ourselves. I got the part as I was the only boy who's voice had changed. Sold out three nights at the local VFW lodge. Drank 25¢ Rheingolds out of the bar's vending machine during rehearsals.

But I learned a very important life lesson from that play which served me well later in life: A secretary is not a toy.

FYI: New Rochelle is a shithole now.

[John D]

But I learned a very important life lesson from that play which served me well later in life: A secretary is not a toy.

Gentlemen. Gentlemen.
A secretary is not a toy,
No, my boy, not a toy
To fondle and dandle and playfully handle
In search of some puerile joy.
No, a secretary is not,
Definitely not, a toy.

[MarcusAu]

What are the top ten? : Sweeny Todd, Passion, Les Mis, West Side Story, Chicago, Oklahoma, Music Man, How to Succeeded in Business, Avenue Q, Oliver.... I guess. hmmmmm.

I guess it must be a generational thing - but it seems a bit strange not to include anything with Fred Astaire & Ginger Rodgers or Gene Kelly for that matter.

So...my eclectic list would include - Singin' In the Rain (or perhaps Clockwork Orange), Robin and the Seven Hoods, High Society, My Fair Lady, Tommy, Quadrophenia (sp?), Duck Soup (because why not?) and I guess O Brother Where Art Thou qualifies. Nothing with Lisa Minnelli though.

And to showcase all that great nostalgia - The Blues Brothers and Tap.


There are some people that make it look so easy that anyone could do it - and then there are some people that don't...

[John D]

Fucking Nicholas Brothers! Man! I watched a good documentary of them. One of the brothers was a real whore.... haha. They were the boss.

My top ten list includes shows that affect me deeply. More deeply than a simple show. So, while no one can dance like the Nicholas Bros... they don't touch me emotionally. They just make me say "Wow!"

The Fred and Ginger stuff is the same. They crush it... no doubt. But, the stories and the music don't touch me as deeply.

I do not say your choices are wrong. Just different from mine. I like story, melody, and character. So, how many times can I watch Les Mis and come away with new questions....? Every time I think.

[Matt Cavanaugh]

miniplenty malquote chocolate rectify

"The definition of vaccine we have posted is problematic and people are using it to claim the COVID-19 vaccine is not a vaccine based on our own definition.”

https://technofog.substack.com/p/cdc-em ... ished=true

[fafnir]

This feels like it's talking about today and Defund the Police:

[Steersman]

Probably why "Hunny Bunny" - among many other women - wound up blocking me on Twitter

How do you know that they were women?

Because many of them - Hunny Bunny, Maya Forstater, Helen Joyce, all of whom have blocked me - have provided fairly tangible evidence of having or having had husbands and kids? Prima facie evidence of having been "adult human females" at some point. Whether they still qualify is probably moot or academic.

But was doing some spelunking through the archives to see HB's various arguments and happened to have found her Twitter handle, a recent tweet of hers being:

All the people who have ever been, or ever will be pregnant, are wildly diverse in the way they choose to express themselves, but are always women, immutably female.

If you hide the reality of the reproductive class you hide the oppression we experience because we belong to it.

Kinda "self-identifies" into the category. But what is particularly interesting about her tweet - and her retweet of a Julie Bindel post about the rather crappy if not odious Kathleen Stock situation - and Forstater's recent case is their "immutably female" (HB), "the immutability of biology" (Bindel), and "sex is biologically immutable" (Forstater):

https://www.mailplus.co.uk/edition/comment/120243

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They all have something of a case against the transloonie nutcases, but insisting on the "immutability of female" and of sex flies in the face of standard biological definitions. Which is rather profoundly "anti-scientific and anti-intellectual", a phrase used by the ("female") authors of "Professing Feminism" to describe the denizens of various "Women's Studies" programs all across the land. Many if not most "women" are so desperate to retain their female membership cards - insisting on some "immutable and mythic essence" to the sex categories - that they wind up shooting themselves in the feet - really "giving aid and comfort" to their "sworn enemies".

Something of an oldish essay by Stock on the issue:

https://www.thearticle.com/maya-forstat ... cal-belief

She makes some good points and more or less endorses the "adult human female" definition for "woman" but still seems reluctant to address what it means to be female and that its meaning is a matter of stipulation, not of belief. It's not a matter of belief that "bachelor" means "unmarried male"; it's a matter of a priori stipulation - like saying which is the legal side of the road to drive on:

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Not "mad" Kathleen - just logic.

[John D]

This feels like it's talking about today and Defund the Police:

So.... part of what caused the increase in crime in the 70s and 80s is public permissiveness of criminal behavior. Criminals can be thought of as victims themselves and so they must be quickly forgiven. We are in that same space now. It is not clear to me how long this will last. It lasted for decades in the 70s and 80s. Criminals were victims of society and so they were not punished or jailed as readily. Also, many people, especially minorities, defend very destructive and criminal behavior, claiming the behavior is understandable... cause of white people...etc. I didn't expect this to come back.... but here it is. "No one wants a fella with a social disease!"

[Steersman]

"you're supposed to keep your woman in a perpetual state of fantasy - about her age, her weight, the size of her ass ..." Or, in particular, whether she still qualifies as a female and a woman once she hits menopause ... Probably why "Hunny Bunny" - among many other women - wound up blocking me on Twitter

How do you know that they were women?

Holy fuck that's hilarious. I thought stalemate was the best anyone could do against Steersman.
But, nope, Checkmate! by Marcus.

What's "hilarious" is labelling the ventilation shaft on the Death Star with the word "vagina" - they might have had better success and fewer losses if they had done so.

But "stalemate" and "checkmate" are rather wide of the mark at best. You seem to think that education is some sort of "zero sum" game where the teacher wins and the students get checkmated. If you were taking a community college course on, say, automotive mechanics then would you think you were "checkmated" if you were told that the carburetor is the mechanism than mixes gas and air, or that the transmission matches engine rpm to wheel rpms for maximum power delivery and efficiency?

Those are the a priori definitions without which the subject is more or less meaningless or useless.

Same thing with biological definitions. We - or biologists - might have defined "male" and "female" other than as "produces sperm" and "produces ova", but there are rather sound reasons for those choices. Remarkably "anti-scientific" and "anti-intellectual" to reject them and their consequences - causes no end of quite unnecessary grief and animosity.

[Service Dog]

I like Grease.

This discussion reminds me of my vast ignorance, punctuated with flashes of direct knowledge.

Performed at my junior high & high school: Bye Bye Birdie, Peter Pan, Jesus Christ Superstar, A Chorus Line. I auditioned & was not what the teachers wanted. They were right: I was a hyperactive know-it-all with zero musical ability & awful hammy acting. But-- by not keeping me busy learning lines & choreography-- they created a monster. I joined the stage construction crew & hung around all the rehearsals & made a copy of a full set of keys to the school... including the model apartment used to train retarded kids to function. (A good place to go cook a can of soup and make-out on a couch, at midnight, & seduce one of their starlets.) I broke another stage crew sweathog's leg, fake fighting. Then-- a day later-- accidentally broke my brother's arm, between classes. But I was also the only male who participated in Modern Dance class. I didn't enroll... 3 days a week I had study hall that same hour... so I'd just go dance with the girls instead.

Freshman year in a big midwest state university... I was watching the traveling street preachers yell at the college kids ''You're all going to hell!"... when I met another dude... also heckling the Christians. He had an American Flag pin on his backpack, with a pink triangle for one star. I thought it was cool-- only claim to be one star/ not take over the whole flag. He was with the touring company of Les Mis. I can't recall if he was chorus or orchestra pit. So we talked more & he gave me free tickets, two nights in a row. After the 2nd show, he was-- reasonably-enough-- frustrated that I had zero interest in exploring gay sex. HA! That's what you get, when straight guys are non-homophobic: they waste your time being Friends!

I abandoned midwest college after the 2nd semester-- and raced to NYC-- landed at all-female Barnard College-- dating a dance major, occasionally serving as the male-role in class performances, socializing with Juilliard kids... and the Fame! high school... and the school-turned-performance-venue where the Fame! tv show had been filmed. I met Twila Tharpe & Martha Graham, freeloaded on-tour with Mark Morris, hung out with Merce Cunningham when he was 90, Laurie Anderson, Barishnikov. Later dated a cast member from Legally Blond The Musical & Kinky Boots. And my old bass player from a college rock band-- shared a Grammy for the Kinky Boots soundtrack, with Cyndi Lauper. I also fell into the orbit of the guy who won the 8 Mile soundtrack Oscar, making all the music Eminem rapped-over. What else? I've briefly worked inside the costume sewing shops of bigtime designers Martin Packlidinaz and his rival Martin Izquierdo. As well as Eric Winterling's studio. I helped make costumes for La Boheme. oh... and I was best man at the wedding of the black chick who replaced the tranny in RENT... I fetched Red Gatorade backstage for Liza Minelli... I was a stagehand building the replica set for the Jerry Springer Musical.

And I joined a quirky downtown dance company for nearly a decade... the token clumsy straight guy, who was in-shape because I was a bike messenger by-day/ not because I took ballet classes.

And-- all this culminated in years of nights at a really wild burlesque bar-- sometimes as doorman, rarely onstage, mostly just making the scene...

And yet and yet and yet...

EVERYONE who posted above... is more knowledgeable about Musical Theatre than I am. I never actually watched the film version of Bye Bye Birdie-- until a couple years ago. Still never seen A Chorus Line or Fame or RENT (despite basically living the real thing. Spoiler: lots of death from drugs & AIDS), never seen Legally Blonde or Kinky Boots. Or Cabaret.

And all this shit I'm bragging-about... evaporated when my modern dancer ex got rid of me. Her parents were really old-- which imbued her with quite-special & rare old-timey tastes: she knew-about & loved Syd Charice (who she resembled!) & Gene Kelly & Danny Kaye & all sorts of bygone culture. So I absorbed some of it. But-- it's like my current GF being an immensely knowledgeable Japanese chef... I just know what the food tastes like. I know how efficient she is in the kitchen: quick & no unwashed dishes when she's done. (she cleans as she goes). I can't replicate it. I can't even pronounce the names of the dishes.

I didn't even immediately recall the stuff I wrote above. I had to sit & think, as I wrote. It's like it happened to someone else. My years in the art gallery world are rapidly receding, the same way. I didn't make a lasting name for myself there, and I wasn't a standard colleague of those who went to art school/ worked in a studio/ schmoozed in the scene/ climbed the ladder of gallery representation & art sales. I've done much more gallery art stuff-- than some who followed the orthodox past-- but not-enough to say I did much-at-all.

Today I walked thru Tompkins Square park, and across St. Mark's Place. On many blocks, the storefronts have changed from what I knew. The used guitar shop is a real estate office & is never changing-back. The tiny fashion boutique run by an ex-prostitute is a restaurant-- which didn't survive the lockdown.

Today I learned that Phil Hartman was a graphic designer, before he studied improv. He designed Steely Dan's Aja cover, and albums for Toto and America. And then he did SNL, The Simpsons, News Radio. He co-wrote Pee-Wee's Big Adventure! And his crazy wife shot him dead in his sleep. He made a mark, but half the things he did-- have already faded away.

[fafnir]

This feels like it's talking about today and Defund the Police:

So.... part of what caused the increase in crime in the 70s and 80s is public permissiveness of criminal behavior. Criminals can be thought of as victims themselves and so they must be quickly forgiven. We are in that same space now. It is not clear to me how long this will last. It lasted for decades in the 70s and 80s. Criminals were victims of society and so they were not punished or jailed as readily. Also, many people, especially minorities, defend very destructive and criminal behavior, claiming the behavior is understandable... cause of white people...etc. I didn't expect this to come back.... but here it is. "No one wants a fella with a social disease!"

The problem is that the ideas behind this are too attractive for the people who hold it to let go of. You have very similar thinking playing out with people who would call for unilateral disarmament, or want their country to go zero carbon and destroy their economy regardless of what other nations do.

I think on some level it comes from being committed to a utopia that is only held back by the wickedness of society. The fall of man is not something innate and primordial, but occurs when society fills his head with wickedness. All that Rousseau crap. If you then work back from that to what would have to be true about the world for utopia to be achieved, then rapists must be raping because society has told them it's OK. Bank robbers are only robbing banks because of capitalism.

[John D]

I like Grease.

Grease is the word!

Your story sort of cracks me up. I think I have only seen a few famous people in my life. Huey Lewis at the airport... Dean Martin at a bar in Hollywood... Steve Martin on a airplane. That's it. My nephew was a dancer in the Billy Joel show "Moving Out".

But... I know and I have seen all these shows. I think that I would probably enjoy the shows less if I met the famous people. I really don't like actors in general.... as people I mean. They are talented... so they can act... but they are just really skilled liars. Not my "kind" of people if you know what I mean. It is better to enjoy the show and not think about the actors (expect for their skill).

My wife and I enjoy the TV show "Masked Singer". It is a kind of famous people love fest. Nick Cannon is a fucking racist cunt... but I enjoy the show. You really need to separate the performer from the performance... otherwise you end up hating everything (which does happen to me from time to time).

[ThreeFlangedJavis]

This feels like it's talking about today and Defund the Police:

So.... part of what caused the increase in crime in the 70s and 80s is public permissiveness of criminal behavior. Criminals can be thought of as victims themselves and so they must be quickly forgiven. We are in that same space now. It is not clear to me how long this will last. It lasted for decades in the 70s and 80s. Criminals were victims of society and so they were not punished or jailed as readily. Also, many people, especially minorities, defend very destructive and criminal behavior, claiming the behavior is understandable... cause of white people...etc. I didn't expect this to come back.... but here it is. "No one wants a fella with a social disease!"

Can't help feeling that the current iteration is more engineered than the last one. We surely do have the fuzzy-minded stupidly compassionate element, but we also have Soros throwing billions at the agents of this rot. If it's true that you know who has power by who you can't criticise then Soros is in charge. Anti-semitism charges follow within a microsecond of publicly mentioning Soros. Happened to Larry Elder when he cited Soros as one of the sponsors of California's dysfunction. Dig into the funding of politicians defensive of Soros and you find his money there.

I tend to catastrophise and the contemporary disconnect from reality has me very pessimistic. Thing is though, there is the possibility that there may be some elements of the woke ideology that we need to seriously consider and when the pendulum swings we will arrive in a genuinely more just place. The optimist would say that although we keep repeating the mistakes of the past we emerge slightly better from the experience each time.

[Matt Cavanaugh]

EVERYONE who posted above... is more knowledgeable about Musical Theatre than I am.

Growing up just outside NYC, Broadway permeated the cultural Zeitgeist. Whereas take an hour drive into Central Connecticut and nobody gave a flying fuck about it.

From since my sister was little, she wanted to be an actress. She was slated for an audition for a walk-on in ENTER THE DRAGON, but my parents decided a visit to our grandparents was more important. She ended up doing a little off-broadway and Summer Stock, but hated the cutthroat auditioning vibe and moved into production for many years, eventually working in Hollywood for some big names.

Anyway, when we were eleven and twelve thereabouts, my mom saw an ad for a summer theater camp. My sister wanted to go. As a courtesy, my mom asked if I wanted to also and to her surprise, I said okay. That's how we met our Broadway-obsessed friends. Before that, I hardly knew what it was. I had posters of ball players and Pink Floyd on my wall; their's were covered in those little yellow Playbills from all of the hokey shows of the fifties and sixties. Dark Side of the Moon vs. The Fantasticks. Fred Lynn vs. Zero Mostel. The following year, we put on How to Succeed all by ourselves, which was a hoot and something kids would never be allowed to do nowadays.

No surprise that all the boys other than me and the kid who made stage lights out of coffee cans turned out gay. I dated two of the girls from the gang, plus got ceremonial kisses inside the costume rack by identical twins, as reward for being the only person ever who could tell them apart.

Our leads in How to Succeed were "J" and "D". J was already an accomplished professional actor, having played the kid in the winter clothes who orders hot chocolate at McDonald's, and the letter who's only going across town to his aunt's but gets lifted ex machina out of the postbox because he has no zip code. As an adult, he worked regularly off-broadway. He was very talented and a real nice kid, no ego.

Everyone wanted to date D because she was considered the most beautiful girl alive. Think a prepubescent Ann Bancroft. J got to date her. Later, J dated my sister for a few weeks. They stayed in touch for many years until J died of AIDS.

After How to Succeed, my sister continued with that 'troupe' for a bit. I quit, but did end up in a serious high school romance with Lucy from You're A Good Man Charlie Brown. (Word to the wise: NSYDIL.) After that, no acting for me other than delivering one line in a friend's radio production of Hair as an emergency understudy. Like in, hey would you like to perform in a radio play? Sure, when? Like in fifteen minutes?

[fafnir]

This feels like it's talking about today and Defund the Police:

So.... part of what caused the increase in crime in the 70s and 80s is public permissiveness of criminal behavior. Criminals can be thought of as victims themselves and so they must be quickly forgiven. We are in that same space now. It is not clear to me how long this will last. It lasted for decades in the 70s and 80s. Criminals were victims of society and so they were not punished or jailed as readily. Also, many people, especially minorities, defend very destructive and criminal behavior, claiming the behavior is understandable... cause of white people...etc. I didn't expect this to come back.... but here it is. "No one wants a fella with a social disease!"

Can't help feeling that the current iteration is more engineered than the last one. We surely do have the fuzzy-minded stupidly compassionate element, but we also have Soros throwing billions at the agents of this rot. If it's true that you know who has power by who you can't criticise then Soros is in charge. Anti-semitism charges follow within a microsecond of publicly mentioning Soros. Happened to Larry Elder when he cited Soros as one of the sponsors of California's dysfunction. Dig into the funding of politicians defensive of Soros and you find his money there.

I can't remember where I heard this description of Soros's world view.... but the way it was explained to me was as follows... Basically you have two ideas going on at the same time:
1. A kind of libertarianism where if you want crack or opioids you should be allowed it.
2. The neo-marxist understanding of responsibility where everything is the fault of society.
When those things are combined together you have a situation where people are shoplifting and taking heroine because of society. You shouldn't criminalize their behaviour, instead you should support them so they can safely take heroin while Soros prosecutors go and punish the people really responsible.... like the police, or the people at the store you robbed that pointed a gun at you.

I tend to catastrophise and the contemporary disconnect from reality has me very pessimistic. Thing is though, there is the possibility that there may be some elements of the woke ideology that we need to seriously consider and when the pendulum swings we will arrive in a genuinely more just place. The optimist would say that although we keep repeating the mistakes of the past we emerge slightly better from the experience each time.

The ideology is insane. What is there to keep that wasn't already there before woke? They didn't invent the idea of being nice to people. They just took the idea and mixed it with race based collective guilt and similar insanity. It's like saying "once I get over this syphilis, maybe I'll find some things about having syphilis that I want to keep".

I would say we are worse this time. In the 60s when this happened there was more of the old structures left to resist them. In the early 20th Century in Europe there were yet more of the old structures. It's like the difference between the 1st and 2nd war of the ring. They have the army now, the newspapers, the politicians, the universities, the HR departments.... religion is pretty much gone, tradition is pretty much gone, culture and nationality are pale shadows of what they were. We are trying to base our resistance on the same enlightenment values that this enemy feeds on.

[Matt Cavanaugh]

Oh, I forgot an intervening year when the summer camp put on My Fair Lady. My sister played Eliza, J was Henry Higgins. That must've been when they dated. But I honestly stole the show as Alfred P. Doolittle. I can still probably punch out Get Me To The Church On Time in horrible cockney.

So my career was:
Flower Drum Song (so racist) - sundry walk-ons, chorus
Carousel (excerpts) - The old guy
Some Chekhov play (excerpts) - The old guy
My Fair Lady - Alfred P. Doolittle
How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying - Mr. Bratt, set construction, advanced ticket sales, sneaking beer up to the girls' dressing room
Guys and Dolls - no role, just dated a doll
You're A Good Man Charlie Brown - no role, just dated Lucy
Church Christmas Pageant - Christmas Tree
Hair - Vietnam grunt

[ThreeFlangedJavis]

This feels like it's talking about today and Defund the Police:

So.... part of what caused the increase in crime in the 70s and 80s is public permissiveness of criminal behavior. Criminals can be thought of as victims themselves and so they must be quickly forgiven. We are in that same space now. It is not clear to me how long this will last. It lasted for decades in the 70s and 80s. Criminals were victims of society and so they were not punished or jailed as readily. Also, many people, especially minorities, defend very destructive and criminal behavior, claiming the behavior is understandable... cause of white people...etc. I didn't expect this to come back.... but here it is. "No one wants a fella with a social disease!"

Can't help feeling that the current iteration is more engineered than the last one. We surely do have the fuzzy-minded stupidly compassionate element, but we also have Soros throwing billions at the agents of this rot. If it's true that you know who has power by who you can't criticise then Soros is in charge. Anti-semitism charges follow within a microsecond of publicly mentioning Soros. Happened to Larry Elder when he cited Soros as one of the sponsors of California's dysfunction. Dig into the funding of politicians defensive of Soros and you find his money there.

I can't remember where I heard this description of Soros's world view.... but the way it was explained to me was as follows... Basically you have two ideas going on at the same time:
1. A kind of libertarianism where if you want crack or opioids you should be allowed it.
2. The neo-marxist understanding of responsibility where everything is the fault of society.
When those things are combined together you have a situation where people are shoplifting and taking heroine because of society. You shouldn't criminalize their behaviour, instead you should support them so they can safely take heroin while Soros prosecutors go and punish the people really responsible.... like the police, or the people at the store you robbed that pointed a gun at you.

I tend to catastrophise and the contemporary disconnect from reality has me very pessimistic. Thing is though, there is the possibility that there may be some elements of the woke ideology that we need to seriously consider and when the pendulum swings we will arrive in a genuinely more just place. The optimist would say that although we keep repeating the mistakes of the past we emerge slightly better from the experience each time.

The ideology is insane. What is there to keep that wasn't already there before woke? They didn't invent the idea of being nice to people. They just took the idea and mixed it with race based collective guilt and similar insanity. It's like saying "once I get over this syphilis, maybe I'll find some things about having syphilis that I want to keep".

I would say we are worse this time. In the 60s when this happened there was more of the old structures left to resist them. In the early 20th Century in Europe there were yet more of the old structures. It's like the difference between the 1st and 2nd war of the ring. They have the army now, the newspapers, the politicians, the universities, the HR departments.... religion is pretty much gone, tradition is pretty much gone, culture and nationality are pale shadows of what they were. We are trying to base our resistance on the same enlightenment values that this enemy feeds on.

My philosophy is that however strongly I feel about tradition, the enlightenment, citizenship, politics, social mores and all those kinds of things it doesn't mean I'm right in every respect. Woke ideology is destructive, undoubtedly true, but that doesn't mean that it is somehow objectively wrong to move the line of balance between the interests of personal freedom and concern for the welfare of others. There is a grain of truth in ideas about unconscious biases and blindness to injustice arising from limited personal experience. Once wokeism is rolled back it is possible that it may have caused people to approach some issues with more understanding. People are not generally malicious but they may be complacent about the validity of their opinions and assumptions. Basic human nature exists but there may be things that we think of as encompassed by that which are subject to culture and shift over time so there may be scope for cultural changes which we think of as objectively bad which actually aren't. My gut reaction to the situation is similar to yours but I acknowledge the possibility that I'm just an old codger hanging onto some outdated notions. I hope that what we appear to have lost may not be quite as gone as we think. My sense is that the woke have overplayed their hand now.

[Matt Cavanaugh]

I really don't like actors in general.... as people I mean. They are talented... so they can act... but they are just really skilled liars. Not my "kind" of people if you know what I mean.

I've met a several through my sister. The less famous ones were far more likable, ordinary folks, aside from one whose name you'd instantly recognize with whom I became friends, very down to earth. We'd always hit it off and have great conversations about real things. Also met some producers who were polite but clearly considered me irrelevant. What I found interesting was how at parties, so often the crew chatting with each other would say of a star or director, 'he's actually really nice' without sounding fully convinced themselves.

Dunno whether fame turns you into a dick, or being a dick drives you to seek fame. Maybe a little of both. One thing I did notice was, like with the fashion industry Dog describes, Hollywood is so absorbed in Hollywood, they have no conception that an entire world exists outside of it, and what is so vitally important to them, is in reality trivial.

[John D]

Dunno whether fame turns you into a dick, or being a dick drives you to seek fame. Maybe a little of both. One thing I did notice was, like with the fashion industry Dog describes, Hollywood is so absorbed in Hollywood, they have no conception that an entire world exists outside of it, and what is so vitally important to them, is in reality trivial.

I am not saying that performers are necessarily dicks. Most of them are very polite... entertaining at parties... full of knowledge... up on the latest trends. But, I find that they are turned off by my company... and vice versa.

I am blunt and open and politically challenging. I am expected to play along with the popular bullshit and if I don't I get labeled as rude.... or insensitive... or an ass hole. Politeness is the cheapest of virtues. You just need to play along to be polite. But being polite and charming etc... are just ways of fitting in. They have no thickness.... and heaven forbid if someone doesn't play the game.

and partly... I realized early that I would never compete with the big handsome men in the world on their terms. I needed my own shtick... so I intentionally left the plantation of popular people. It worked out okay I think.

I have this funny relationship with the one family member who is the most "Hollywood". My nephew was a pro dancer on Broadway... gay... studied ballet in New York. Stuff happens...haha. He shows up at a family function with a shirt with the stitching on the outside. It looks like a bad t-shirt that he is wearing inside out. So.... I give him some shit and ask him why his shirt is inside out...haha. And he get all up in his attitude and tells me he paid $500 for it a some designer shop. And... I am like... I barely spend $500 a year on clothes... and I would never pay for in inside out t-shirt. I guess we just have different values. I am happy with mine thank you very much.

[fafnir]

My philosophy is that however strongly I feel about tradition, the enlightenment, citizenship, politics, social mores and all those kinds of things it doesn't mean I'm right in every respect. Woke ideology is destructive, undoubtedly true, but that doesn't mean that it is somehow objectively wrong to move the line of balance between the interests of personal freedom and concern for the welfare of others.

Is that what social justice is about? It feels like we were having that discussion already without the need for everybody to start talking like Lenin.

There is a grain of truth in ideas about unconscious biases and blindness to injustice arising from limited personal experience.

None of that was unknown before social justice.

Once wokeism is rolled back it is possible that it may have caused people to approach some issues with more understanding.

I would say that that would allow us to have the same conversation we were having before.

WW2 meant that for 80 years positions in favour of nationalism, traditional culture and heratage, the negative impact of immigration were rendered virtually unsayable. I think there is a good chance that one or other position is going to be political poison for a while. My guess would be if the anti-woke win, the woke will be in retreat for 20 years. If the woke win, it will be a lot longer than that before they can be challenged.

People are not generally malicious but they may be complacent about the validity of their opinions and assumptions.

Depends which people you are talking about. The intellectuals generating these theories are quite clear. Liberal capitalism makes people happy so the revolution can't be achieved that will usher in utopia (I was reading exactly that statement only the other day, I think from Marcusa). Dischord and ideas that cause dischord need to be sown to make that happen. There will inevitably be the need to impose utopia by force and if seas of blood have to be waded through, then that is the noble sacrifice that will have to be made. They have good intentions like Thanos has good intentions.

Basic human nature exists but there may be things that we think of as encompassed by that which are subject to culture and shift over time so there may be scope for cultural changes which we think of as objectively bad which actually aren't.

All this was known before the woke started doing there thing. You are talking as if these were people whose ideology was just about sharing and being nice and they'd pushed it too hard and been unrealistic about certain things. That's the sales pitch, not what's in the box.

My gut reaction to the situation is similar to yours but I acknowledge the possibility that I'm just an old codger hanging onto some outdated notions. I hope that what we appear to have lost may not be quite as gone as we think. My sense is that the woke have overplayed their hand now.

What I think happens is you have two strategies going on. Good cop, bad cop. One team makes outrageous and shrill demands while attacking people in the street. They capture a bunch of ground. Then the other team comes in and acts reasonable and consolidates. The idea is for the new state of affairs to become the new normal. That this group of lunatics in the street fail at some point doesn't matter so long as the other team holds the captured ground until the heat is off and the game can begin again.

Do we think Harvard and Yale or showing signs of turning hard to the right any time soon? DC is 95% Democrat. The navy just named a ship after a pederast. They have all the pieces on the board. If they collapse at this point, it is going to be epic. How can it be done without effectively admitting they were in fact the fascists the whole time?

Short of them losing a war over this, is that likely?

[Matt Cavanaugh]

Most of them are very polite... entertaining at parties... full of knowledge... up on the latest trends. But, I find that they are turned off by my company... and vice versa.
....
You just need to play along to be polite. But being polite and charming etc... are just ways of fitting in. They have no thickness.... and heaven forbid if someone doesn't play the game.

There's hierarchies, classes if you will. The currency is patronage, perks, with obsequience in return. 'AP's brother attending wrap party' is someone of no real value to them, other than keeping the AP content. In Hollywood, someone is either above you who you need, or someone below you who can be useful to you. (Dog has made a living as the latter.) Everyone else on the planet is scenery. Alec Baldwin called the woman he killed his friend, offering as proof that he'd picked up the check at dinner. But really she was just of use to him. Alec Baldwin has no friends.

I mean, that's all human nature. The big chief in the Amazon throws a feast for the villagers, slaughtering his excess pigs. The starving villagers pay homage, thanking him for sharing some of the pig meat he's hoarded by virtue of his position. But in industries like Hollywood, every other component of human interaction gets boiled off until only that transactional dynamic remains.

It looks like a bad t-shirt that he is wearing inside out. So.... I give him some shit and ask him why his shirt is inside out...haha. And he get all up in his attitude and tells me he paid $500 for it a some designer shop. And... I am like... I barely spend $500 a year on clothes... and I would never pay for in inside out t-shirt.

When I see someone with those torn jeans, I ask: did you tear those the hard way, or pay someone to do it for you? And they sheepishly admit they paid through the nose.

Are those jeans faded to look like you wore biker chaps still popular? I'd always go, fake naive: so you do a lot of riding? Then, I'm like, hell, I paid way less for my jeans and chaps combined.

[ThreeFlangedJavis]

Dunno whether fame turns you into a dick, or being a dick drives you to seek fame. Maybe a little of both. One thing I did notice was, like with the fashion industry Dog describes, Hollywood is so absorbed in Hollywood, they have no conception that an entire world exists outside of it, and what is so vitally important to them, is in reality trivial.

Maybe if they did a few Hallmark Christmas movies. Actors like to sell you this myth of how philosophical and observant of life they are, something they claim to need to play roles. Ironically, learning the importance of humility, relationships and the truly meaningful is a common theme in movies. It's just natural to block out those lower down the hierarchy because they simply aren't relevant to your life. The things they focus on and talk about are of little interest, generally speaking. There are some exceptional people who make time for and take a genuine interest in subordinates.

[fafnir]

It's just natural to block out those lower down the hierarchy because they simply aren't relevant to your life.

Is it natural, or is it that the types of people who are attracted to the limelight, and who have the drive, monomania and whatever else is required to make it naturally block these people out? There are afterall no people like show people.

[ThreeFlangedJavis]

It's just natural to block out those lower down the hierarchy because they simply aren't relevant to your life.

Is it natural, or is it that the types of people who are attracted to the limelight, and who have the drive, monomania and whatever else is required to make it naturally block these people out? There are afterall no people like show people.

Probably natural to most people who don't have the luxury of no place to be or things to do. I wouldn't expect a high-powered type to give me the time of day because I couldn't afford or have any experience of the pursuits which interest them. Would think it's the same all the way down the ladder.

[fafnir]

It's just natural to block out those lower down the hierarchy because they simply aren't relevant to your life.

Is it natural, or is it that the types of people who are attracted to the limelight, and who have the drive, monomania and whatever else is required to make it naturally block these people out? There are afterall no people like show people.

Probably natural to most people who don't have the luxury of no place to be or things to do. I wouldn't expect a high-powered type to give me the time of day because I couldn't afford or have any experience of the pursuits which interest them. Would think it's the same all the way down the ladder.

If you look at the private lives of Presidents, many of them were not normal people. Showing their penises to people. Driven. Egotistical to the point where they thought they could be President. Half of them you could make a plausible case for a personality disorder. I wonder if it isn't the same with actors. Do normal people become successful actors? Many of them didn't have normal childhoods.

I think I've seen quotes attributed to both Richard Burton and Marlon Brando saying that there was something unmanly about acting. Burton came from a mining family in Wales, I think. Particularly for apparently macho personalities like Baldwin, I wonder if there isn't something difficult... almost like a Napoleon complex, about your job being to pretend to be other people.

[ThreeFlangedJavis]

It's just natural to block out those lower down the hierarchy because they simply aren't relevant to your life.

Is it natural, or is it that the types of people who are attracted to the limelight, and who have the drive, monomania and whatever else is required to make it naturally block these people out? There are afterall no people like show people.

Probably natural to most people who don't have the luxury of no place to be or things to do. I wouldn't expect a high-powered type to give me the time of day because I couldn't afford or have any experience of the pursuits which interest them. Would think it's the same all the way down the ladder.

If you look at the private lives of Presidents, many of them were not normal people. Showing their penises to people. Driven. Egotistical to the point where they thought they could be President. Half of them you could make a plausible case for a personality disorder. I wonder if it isn't the same with actors. Do normal people become successful actors? Many of them didn't have normal childhoods.

I think I've seen quotes attributed to both Richard Burton and Marlon Brando saying that there was something unmanly about acting. Burton came from a mining family in Wales, I think. Particularly for apparently macho personalities like Baldwin, I wonder if there isn't something difficult... almost like a Napoleon complex, about your job being to pretend to be other people.

Almost certain that Hollywood is full of weird personalities. I'm not even sure that a dedication to acting is what drives Hollywood stars. A desire to be famous may be paramount in many of them and movie stardom is the way to achieve that. Hollywood is particularly competitive and it really matters who you know so I think that just exacerbates a relatively normal tendency to focus attention up the social/business ladder. The average Joe still has time for some lower status close friends because they know their qualities as human beings even if they give lower status strangers short shrift. In highly competitive environments a low status friend tends to be seen as dead weight.

[Matt Cavanaugh]

In lieu of a thousand words, this update on how the Rittenhouse trial went today. ADA's Kraus and Bingerboi:

states_own_witness.jpg

(42.53 KiB) Downloaded 189 times

[Lsuoma]

Oh, I forgot an intervening year when the summer camp put on My Fair Lady. My sister played Eliza, J was Henry Higgins. That must've been when they dated. But I honestly stole the show as Alfred P. Doolittle. I can still probably punch out Get Me To The Church On Time in horrible cockney.

So my career was:
Flower Drum Song (so racist) - sundry walk-ons, chorus
Carousel (excerpts) - The old guy
Some Chekhov play (excerpts) - The old guy
My Fair Lady - Alfred P. Doolittle
How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying - Mr. Bratt, set construction, advanced ticket sales, sneaking beer up to the girls' dressing room
Guys and Dolls - no role, just dated a doll
You're A Good Man Charlie Brown - no role, just dated Lucy
Church Christmas Pageant - Christmas Tree
Hair - Vietnam grunt

I hear the wokerati have finally bitched enough that there are going to be changes to The Book of Mormon :-(

The fuck *everything* up.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/23/thea ... tions.html

[Matt Cavanaugh]

I hear the wokerati have finally bitched enough that there are going to be changes to The Book of Mormon :-(

The fuck *everything* up.

Can't wait for Great Gadsby! The Hannah Gadsby Story musical.

[ThreeFlangedJavis]

In lieu of a thousand words, this update on how the Rittenhouse trial went today. ADA's Kraus and Bingerboi:


states_own_witness.jpg

Lots of laughing at the prosecution, people think it's all over, but Barnes warns that Binger is playing a game that might conceivably work. He's spent his time since the arrest poisoning the public perception of Rittenhouse. He is quite happy to concede that there was chaos in Kenosha because if the jury pool is as biased as he hopes, they will grasp at any excuse to downplay the facts and letter of the law and stick with their view that Rittenhouse recklessly inserted himself into a volatile situation and provoked an attack.

[Matt Cavanaugh]

Lots of laughing at the prosecution, people think it's all over, but Barnes warns that Binger is playing a game that might conceivably work. He's spent his time since the arrest poisoning the public perception of Rittenhouse. He is quite happy to concede that there was chaos in Kenosha because if the jury pool is as biased as he hopes, they will grasp at any excuse to downplay the facts and letter of the law and stick with their view that Rittenhouse recklessly inserted himself into a volatile situation and provoked an attack.

I know that's Binger's hail mary pass, but even his attempts to show a 'reckless insertion' have been undermined by his own witnesses and video evidence.

Barnes' game:
Rittenhouse acquitted - pfew, they got lucky
Rittenhouse convicted - told ya so

Sorry, the man has too much of a personal grudge to be objective.

[ThreeFlangedJavis]

Lots of laughing at the prosecution, people think it's all over, but Barnes warns that Binger is playing a game that might conceivably work. He's spent his time since the arrest poisoning the public perception of Rittenhouse. He is quite happy to concede that there was chaos in Kenosha because if the jury pool is as biased as he hopes, they will grasp at any excuse to downplay the facts and letter of the law and stick with their view that Rittenhouse recklessly inserted himself into a volatile situation and provoked an attack.

I know that's Binger's hail mary pass, but even his attempts to show a 'reckless insertion' have been undermined by his own witnesses and video evidence.

Barnes' game:
Rittenhouse acquitted - pfew, they got lucky
Rittenhouse convicted - told ya so

Sorry, the man has too much of a personal grudge to be objective.

No, that's not the game Barnes is playing at all. He is critical of the defense for allowing Binger to run his mouth in his opening but impressed with the skill with which the exonerating admission was drawn out of Grosskreutz. He does not dispute that the defense is winning the case on the facts. He is just warning that the result may depend on the extent to which the jury made up it's mind before the trial even began. Are you saying he is wrong to give that warning with the volume of lies that the media have been relaying? Barnes just looks to me like someone calling it how he sees it and I don't get the impression that he is holding a grudge at all. I can see why someone wouldn't trust Barnes but I think I've seen enough of him to know when he's overselling and when he's giving an honest opinion.

[Matt Cavanaugh]

He does not dispute that the defense is winning the case on the facts. He is just warning that the result may depend on the extent to which the jury made up it's mind before the trial even began. Are you saying he is wrong to give that warning with the volume of lies that the media have been relaying?

State rested this morning, after spending most of their time trying to impeach their own witnesses. It was a complete disaster from start to finish. It will only get worse as defense makes its case.

For a conviction, the twelve jurors out of 18 including alternates would need to completely disregard all that, and the law. Motivated by what I don't know -- antifa sympathizing or irrevocably brainwashed by MSNBC and CNN? Even had at least 18 such individuals among the initial pool of 64, the defense would have to have been so incompetent at voir dire, and Binger such a master, to maneuver them all onto the jury.

And that's what I hear Barnes implying: without my guiding hand and my facial expression experts, the defense team must've completely fucked up voir dire.

[Fegg]

State rested this morning, after spending most of their time trying to impeach their own witnesses. It was a complete disaster from start to finish. It will only get worse as defense makes its case.

The autistic photographer is being hopelessly badgered by the prosecution who seem to no idea that they are dealing with someone who is pretty straightforward, but not neurotypical.

[Matt Cavanaugh]

Italy reclassifies covid cases from 'died with' to 'died of'. Reduced from 130K to 4K:

“65.8% of Italians who died after being infected with Covid were ill with arterial hypertension (high blood pressure), 23.5% had dementia, 29.3% had diabetes, and 24.8% atrial fibrillation. Add to that, 17.4% had lung problems, 16.3% had had cancer in the last five years and 15.7% suffered from previous heart failures.”

https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/itali ... oll-number

[Matt Cavanaugh]

The autistic photographer is being hopelessly badgered by the prosecution who seem to no idea that they are dealing with someone who is pretty straightforward, but not neurotypical.

Haven't seen the video yet, but heard it was pretty heavy-handed.

Binger and Kraus don't care if they lose, so long as trying the case pleases their masters and benefits their career tracks. But also, Binger and Kraus don't mind sending an innocent boy to prison for the rest of his life, if it benefits their career tracks.

The two of them deserve to be ass-fucked into the ground with a peeler core until their heads pop out in China.

[Brive1987]

Paul Keating. Ex Australian Prime Minister.

Anti British. But has a wonderful collection of antique French clocks and he married (and divorced) a Dutch air hostess. He lives in Potts Point, the closest Sydney has to a European vibe elite suburb. He once said the best way to see Darwin was “from 20,000 feet on the way to Paris”. He was on the Advisory Council of the Chinese Govt Development Bank. He has been anti the nuclear sub deal.

He has consistently argued that we needed to “engage with” ie become, Asian.

Today he dropped any pretence of loyalty.

Mr Keating insisted China was likely to lead as world hegemon relatively peacefully providing the US made no “ill-conceived” attempts to change the status of Taiwan.

“China is not about turning over the existing world order, it only wants to reform it,” he said.

He wants us to bend our knee to our new overlords. We don’t need grand conspiracy theories in order to see the enemy.

“Relatively” peacefully

[fafnir]

Mr Keating insisted China was likely to lead as world hegemon relatively peacefully providing the US made no “ill-conceived” attempts to change the status of Taiwan.

“China is not about turning over the existing world order, it only wants to reform it,” he said.

Channelling Neville Chamberlain there.

[Keating]

Feel like I have to post this now:
https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house ... -over-with

[ThreeFlangedJavis]

He does not dispute that the defense is winning the case on the facts. He is just warning that the result may depend on the extent to which the jury made up it's mind before the trial even began. Are you saying he is wrong to give that warning with the volume of lies that the media have been relaying?

State rested this morning, after spending most of their time trying to impeach their own witnesses. It was a complete disaster from start to finish. It will only get worse as defense makes its case.

For a conviction, the twelve jurors out of 18 including alternates would need to completely disregard all that, and the law. Motivated by what I don't know -- antifa sympathizing or irrevocably brainwashed by MSNBC and CNN? Even had at least 18 such individuals among the initial pool of 64, the defense would have to have been so incompetent at voir dire, and Binger such a master, to maneuver them all onto the jury.

And that's what I hear Barnes implying: without my guiding hand and my facial expression experts, the defense team must've completely fucked up voir dire.

Don't forget that the jury can convict Rittenhouse on lesser charges.

[MarcusAu]

He wants us to bend our knee to our new overlords

I believe the culturally sensitive term is 'kowtow'

You can't expect everyone to behave like Private Moyse.

[ThreeFlangedJavis]

Watching Rittenhouse testify. One thing that pundits were unanimous about was that Rittenhouse testifying is probably an unwarranted risk. Fluffer's cross is basically an attempt to negate the factual evidence by concentraitng on the motive for acquiring a gun and accusing him of intending to kill. I hope the jury doesn't buy it. I can't understand why the defence would open up to this line of attack. They shouldn't, but you never know. The judge sent the jury out at one point and warned Fluffer he was overstepping the line when he started angling toward accusing Rittenhouse of staying silent until he knew how to tailor his tesimony.

[ThreeFlangedJavis]

Now the judge is shouting at Fluffer!

[John D]

Judge is shouting at the prosecutor again! Calling him a liar!

[ThreeFlangedJavis]

It would be dangerous to underestimate Binger here. He doesn't seem that phased by the rebukes which the jury aren't seeing. He's putting Rittenhouse on the back foot with many of his questions and it's making him look hesitant and slightly confused. If the jury are already predisposed to seeing Rittenhouse the way Binger is trying to make him look then things could end badly. Binger is relying on the sheer number of questions he's throwing which question Rittenhouse's character and predisposition and it could work. He seems prepared to risk a mistrial to get in as many unallowable questions as possible because we all know that striking something from the record doesn't mean much to the jury. In my very lay opinion allowing Rittenhouse to testify was a huge mistake.

[ThreeFlangedJavis]

This is painful. Rittenhouse is a bad witness. He's looking like a deer in the headlights right now. The defense may have fucked this up.

[Matt Cavanaugh]

Mr Keating insisted China was likely to lead as world hegemon relatively peacefully providing the US made no “ill-conceived” attempts to change the status of Taiwan.

“China is not about turning over the existing world order, it only wants to reform it,” he said.

Channelling Neville Chamberlain there.

Vidkun Quisling, more like.

[John D]

This is painful. Rittenhouse is a bad witness. He's looking like a deer in the headlights right now. The defense may have fucked this up.

We will see. Some talking heads are saying Kyle did really well. The prosecution may end up looking like they are badgering the kid. Also, some speculation of a mis-trial based on prosecution attacking Kyle for staying quiet before the trial.

I have to say that Barnes was right regarding how the prosecution would go after the case. The attacks on Kyle are based on a story that claims he should not have been there.... rather than him thinking he was in danger.

[ThreeFlangedJavis]

This is painful. Rittenhouse is a bad witness. He's looking like a deer in the headlights right now. The defense may have fucked this up.

We will see. Some talking heads are saying Kyle did really well. The prosecution may end up looking like they are badgering the kid. Also, some speculation of a mis-trial based on prosecution attacking Kyle for staying quiet before the trial.

I have to say that Barnes was right regarding how the prosecution would go after the case. The attacks on Kyle are based on a story that claims he should not have been there.... rather than him thinking he was in danger.

BInger was trying to show that he shouldn't have been there and that he had no reason to take a gun onto the street when there was no air of threat by Kyle's own admission. The point he was making was unreasonable but Kyle didn't help himself by seeming to have no ready answer. If the jury does buy it then I have a sneaking suspicion that the judge will set aside the verdict. My take on Binger is that he is willing to risk a mis-trial in order to get things in front of the jury, and he is succeeding. Jury's can't unhear things even if the judge reads the riot act. As things stood the prosecution had failed to make any case so I really cannot understand why the defence would allow Binger the opportunity needle their client. Binger hammered at the gun issue because although he wasn't able to make any concrete points he solidified the image of Rittenhouse and his buddy as vigilante wannabes in the minds of anyone with a prejudice toward the culture he comes from. If recent times have proven anything it is that people from different sides of the ideological spectrum can reach completely different conclusions from the same dialog and set of facts. As Kash Patel said on Timcast the other night, he lost lots of cases he thought he'd won and vice versa.

[ThreeFlangedJavis]

Hate apostrophes, They sneak into my sentences and place themselves where they aren't required.

[John D]

The Rittenhouse testimony was really fascinating to watch. Some observations:

The prosecutor asks many questions with a biased statement of fact prior to the questions:... like "You talked to Mr. Blah blah directly after you shot Mr. X and Mr. Y and Mr. Z?.... correct." It is like the Glenn Beck style of interview. You add to your question a (true or false) statement of fact and then ask for a yes or no answer. It is like the question..."Hey Bob ... did you finally stop beating your wife?" Kyle is too young to see this and rebut it. The kid should have said "Well... just after Mr. X beat me... and Mr. Y pointed a gun at me... then I talked to Mr. Blah blah."

I think it is still quite possible that Kyle will be found guilty of some or many of the counts. It is not clear to me that most Americans understand guns. Kyle had the dreaded AR-15! In most peoples mind that automatically makes him a nutter and a danger.

I have little faith in a jury... "Oh I would not be convicted by a jury of my peers.... still crazy after all these years.... OH... still crazy after all these years.

[Matt Cavanaugh]

If the jury does buy it then I have a sneaking suspicion that the judge will set aside the verdict.

I could see this judge doing that. Bingerboi has already been warned that one more misstep will result in a mistrial. Were it not such a high-profile case, it surely would've been tossed already.

My take on Binger is that he is willing to risk a mis-trial in order to get things in front of the jury, and he is succeeding. Jury's can't unhear things even if the judge reads the riot act.

All trial attorneys pull that trick. Whether it resonates with a jury is another matter.

As things stood the prosecution had failed to make any case so I really cannot understand why the defence would allow Binger the opportunity needle their client.

To elicit empathy from the jury. At the end of the day, Kyle is a wide-eyed kid. Binger is a dickhead, a priss, and a pratt. Kraus is alternately bitchy, petulant, and scary like a circus clown in a horror flick scary. He also probably smells.

... he solidified the image of Rittenhouse and his buddy as vigilante wannabes in the minds of anyone with a prejudice toward the culture he comes from.

Still need all twelve jurors to harbor that prejudice, and so bad as to ignore all the glaring evidence -- and easily one of the worst prosecution cases in history.

[Brive1987]

“Not all heroes wear capes”

[MarcusAu]

I was wondering what those Intellectual Dark Folks had be up to recently...

[ThreeFlangedJavis]

As things stood the prosecution had failed to make any case so I really cannot understand why the defence would allow Binger the opportunity needle their client.

To elicit empathy from the jury. At the end of the day, Kyle is a wide-eyed kid. Binger is a dickhead, a priss, and a pratt. Kraus is alternately bitchy, petulant, and scary like a circus clown in a horror flick scary. He also probably smells.

... he solidified the image of Rittenhouse and his buddy as vigilante wannabes in the minds of anyone with a prejudice toward the culture he comes from.

Still need all twelve jurors to harbor that prejudice, and so bad as to ignore all the glaring evidence -- and easily one of the worst prosecution cases in history.

My 2 cents as spectator with no consequential skin in the game is that murder was already off the table, at least with the judge, which leaves lesser charges. IMO giving Binger a run at Kyle needlessly exposed him to needling questions about why he put himself in danger with a gun. An experienced prosecutor should easily be able to rattle a youngster into confusion and defensiveness, which I think happened at one stage. The jurors could be feeling a lot of pressure and they may be looking for a compromise to save themselves from death threats and ire of their liberal fellows.

[fafnir]

My 2 cents as spectator with no consequential skin in the game is that murder was already off the table, at least with the judge, which leaves lesser charges. IMO giving Binger a run at Kyle needlessly exposed him to needling questions about why he put himself in danger with a gun. An experienced prosecutor should easily be able to rattle a youngster into confusion and defensiveness, which I think happened at one stage. The jurors could be feeling a lot of pressure and they may be looking for a compromise to save themselves from death threats and ire of their liberal fellows.

For myself, I'm grateful to have seen it.

[John D]

Viva's assessment... Binger is in big trouble and Kyle's testimony was solid.

[John D]

Fuck ... I don't talk to my oldest daughter much... but... I saw on Instagram that she announced that her pronouns are them and they. Ho ho. This is not going well. The good news is that my wife has decided to keep her relationship with me separate from her relationship with my daughter. I think I can live in this space.