Steerzing in a New Direction...

Steersman
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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#3601

Post by Steersman »

another lurker wrote:
John D wrote: The Pyt has been an important part of my life over the last many years. I will miss it if it dies.

<snip>

Still, even if we don't really change things, it is nice to have a place that contains some people with similar ideas.

and... it is nice to be in a place that will provide me with honest thoughts... even when they are different than mine.
the pit was my saving grace after i finally saw the evil at FreeThoughtBlogs
a respite, with rational people, willing and able to fight the madness
Amen to that. The Pit has been something of an oasis of (actual) free thought in a desert of poisoned wells and mirages that turn out to be little more than echo chambers. So to speak.

Though that's not to say that the place is perfect - too many pushing questionable orthodoxies and "traditions" of their own, and who give some evidence of "thinking" that echo chambers are the way to go, most often when they get their knickers in a twist because they've been challenged on their defenses of them.

But kind of the nature of the beast. I remember reading The Trouble With Islam Today by Irshad Manji, a gay Canadian "woman" and a more or less rational Muslim - a contradiction in terms? - highly recommended. But one particularly brilliant thread in the book is her discussion and elaboration on ijtihad:
Dismayed by the "harrowing picture" of Islam that I'd painted, this Muslim taught me something constructive. .... Ijtihad, he told me, was the Islamic tradtion of independent reasoning, which he claimed allowed every Muslim, female or male, straight or gay, young or old, to update his or her religious practice in light of contemporary circumstances. ....

As usual, I started to read, surf, and talk to scholars. Who made ijtihad a tradition? Where was it practiced and what did that society look like? I unearthed this portrait: The spirit of inquiry animated Islam's golden age, between about 750 and 1250 C.E. .... [pg 56]
Islam of that time basically kept the candle of Greek science burning while Europe succumbed to its Dark Ages. Unfortunately though, the literalists triumphed and suppressed that spirit because it conflicted with religious dogma: "And the gates of ijtihad - our minds - remain, for the most part, closed."

Similar thing with the Catholic Church of 1200 and later - initially supportive of science and reason, but as soon as it conflicted with religious dogma - with what feels good in contradistinction to what is actually true - then it was all too quick to come down on science and that "spirit of inquiry" like the proverbial ton of bricks - Galileo being only the most salient example.

However, even more problematically are the current efforts of the "woke" in the same direction - anything than conflicts with their "immutable" identities and "mythic essences", anything that disabuses them of their untenable and quite risible "feelz", anything that "offends" their cretinous sensibilities and odious ideologies is to be anathematized, if not subjected to the dunking chair, the rack, and burning at the stake.

Something of a recent addition to that bill of particulars from Jerry Coyne:

https://whyevolutionistrue.com/2022/01/ ... sy-pieces/

Methinks that Western "civilization" - such as it is - is hanging in the balance, is in pretty much the same state that both the Islamic empire and the Catholic Church were experiencing and dealing with in 1250. Prognosis is not all that encouraging ...

Steersman
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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#3602

Post by Steersman »

Keating wrote: Steersman?
:-) I see that HunnyBunny had nominated me for the 2018 award:
Steersman, for complete cuntery on twitter & elsewhere. Have you read his article?
http://slymepit.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php ... 51#p481916

Though not sure what article she had in mind then.

But, as she still seems to have her knickers in a twist, she might like to do likewise this year. Seems to be a few others here who are still smarting from recent "spankings" and who might like to do likewise, or at least second her nomination of me ... ;-)

Though kind of amused to see that I wasn't the only Pitter to be nominated for that year's "honour" ... :-)

Steersman
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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#3603

Post by Steersman »

MarcusAu wrote:
Steersman wrote: ...no Cunties ...?
You might have to pay.
:-) No such thing as a free lunch, wherever one happens to "dine" ...

But generally willing to do so, to throw a few shekels into the pot to keep the doors of the place open. Interesting developments of late in places like Substack which are more or less based on subscriptions or donations. And similarly with newsmagazines like Quillette & Aeon - which I've made one-time donations to - and even the Guardian - which I did once and am unlikely to do so again.

That's part of the rot with many so-called newspapers - too dependent on advertising dollars such that they pander to the lowest common denominator. Which is rather surprisingly if not depressingly low.

Matt Cavanaugh
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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#3604

Post by Matt Cavanaugh »

Service Dog wrote:
fafnir wrote: the slippery slope of judicial activism. If you say B is kind of like A, so laws that apply to A should apply to B... you can then move the ratchet on and once everybody is used to the law applying to B you can say that C is kind of like B, so the law should apply to it as well
Doesn't even require diabolical strategizing. It just... happens. A complete dumbfuck can do it.



Sotomayor
wiki
Sotomayor entered Princeton University on a full scholarship, by her own later description gaining admission in part due to her achievements in high school and in part because affirmative action made up for her standardized test scores not being fully comparable to those of other applicants.

Academically, Sotomayor stumbled her first year at Princeton, but later received almost all A's in her final two years of college.

Sotomayor entered Yale Law School in the fall of 1976, once more on a scholarship. While she believes she again benefited from affirmative action to compensate for somewhat lower standardized test scores…. She was known as a hard worker but she was not considered among the star students in her class.

Following her second year, she gained a job as a summer associate with the prominent New York law firm Paul, Weiss, Rifkind, Wharton & Garrison. By her own later evaluation, her performance there was lacking. She did not receive an offer for a full-time position, an experience that she later described as a "kick in the teeth"

n 1991 she was recommended for a spot by Democratic New York senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan. … Moynihan also wanted to fulfill a public promise he had made to get a Hispanic judge appointed for New York.

Service Dog
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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#3605

Post by Service Dog »


fafnir
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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#3606

Post by fafnir »

Steersman wrote: Similar thing with the Catholic Church of 1200 and later - initially supportive of science and reason, but as soon as it conflicted with religious dogma - with what feels good in contradistinction to what is actually true - then it was all too quick to come down on science and that "spirit of inquiry" like the proverbial ton of bricks - Galileo being only the most salient example.
Not sure that this is correct. Galileo was on decent terms with Pope Urban VIII until he put the arguments of Urban VIII about astronomy into the mouth of a character whose name was a pun on "stupid" and who was presented as stupid in his Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems. It seems like the political line that the Papacy wanted taken was that you could inquire all you liked into the Copernican system, you just couldn't claim that it was literally true. It really wasn't possible to prove which system was right at the time, so effectively it was a difference on a matter of faith, and hence heresy.

The woke are much less tolerant than 17th Century Catholics. There is no version of the Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems that you could publish on one of their key dogmas, like racial IQ difference, where they would willingly tolerate the none woke position being articulated. Urban VIII was at least open to having the arguments for and against Copernicanism openly discussed, even if not openly concluded.

Service Dog
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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#3607

Post by Service Dog »

I haven't set-foot outside the apartment since New Year's Day. Only the first two fever-days were very-uncomfortable symptoms. Since-then... the symptoms have been 90% identical to if a healthy person spent a week in bed, eating junk food. They'd feel sticky & gross & sore muscles & is-it-day-or-night?, too. (I'm eating good food. And if I tried to descend the stairs with heavy laundry bag/ I know I'd instantly be lightheaded.)

I feel like a tick, swollen with diseased pus. Less than half this feeling is physical ailment. More than half is the degenerate corruption of the times. NYC's new mayor is off to an odious start... in ways which will affect me directly.

But, this story-- of purely-symbolic significance, is the 'straw that broke the camel's back':


Lsuoma
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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#3608

Post by Lsuoma »

OK, folks. I have decided to release - selectively - some of the FfTB back channel emails. Let me know if there are any subjects you're particularly interested in, and I'll se if there are any hot 'n' juicy nuggets. Can't promise, but let's take a looksee.

As I said earlier, these are from late 2015 (not sure of the start date, but I have some 40,000 emails), but that was around the time FfTB jumped the shark.

Couch
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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#3609

Post by Couch »

:popcorn:

Steersman
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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#3610

Post by Steersman »

fafnir wrote:
Steersman wrote: Similar thing with the Catholic Church of 1200 and later - initially supportive of science and reason, but as soon as it conflicted with religious dogma - with what feels good in contradistinction to what is actually true - then it was all too quick to come down on science and that "spirit of inquiry" like the proverbial ton of bricks - Galileo being only the most salient example.
Not sure that this is correct. Galileo was on decent terms with Pope Urban VIII until he put the arguments of Urban VIII about astronomy into the mouth of a character whose name was a pun on "stupid" and who was presented as stupid in his Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems. It seems like the political line that the Papacy wanted taken was that you could inquire all you liked into the Copernican system, you just couldn't claim that it was literally true. It really wasn't possible to prove which system was right at the time, so effectively it was a difference on a matter of faith, and hence heresy.

The woke are much less tolerant than 17th Century Catholics. There is no version of the Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems that you could publish on one of their key dogmas, like racial IQ difference, where they would willingly tolerate the none woke position being articulated. Urban VIII was at least open to having the arguments for and against Copernicanism openly discussed, even if not openly concluded.
Galileo was maybe not the best example. Or it wasn't fleshed-out as well as it might have been - bit pressed for time then.

But regardless of whether Galileo made snarky comments about the Pope - who did the Pope think he was? Inflalliblity personified? ;-) - that he was put under house arrest for the rest of his life (20 years?) and forced to recant kind of proves my point.

I had intended to elaborate on it a bit with a few references to another book I'd read that you might also enjoy, The Passion of the Western Mind by Richard Tarnas - highly recommended. But of particular note is Tarnas' development and elaboration on "The Scholastic Awakening":
Characteristic of this change in intellectual climate was the development of a school in early twelfth-century Paris at the Augustian Abbey of Saint-Victor. Although working wholly within the tradition of monastic mysticsm and Christian Platonism, Hugh of Saint-Victor proposed the radical educational thesis that secular learning, foucused on the reality of the natural world, constituted a necessary foundation for advanced religious contemplation and even mystical ecstasy. "Learn everything," Hugh declared; "later you will see that nothing is superfluous." [pg 175]
Underlined by Wikipedia:
Scholasticism was a medieval school of philosophy that employed a critical method of philosophical analysis predicated upon a Latin Catholic theistic curriculum which dominated teaching in the medieval universities in Europe from about 1100 to 1700. It originated within the Christian monastic schools that were the basis of the earliest European universities. The rise of scholasticism was closely associated with these schools that flourished in Italy, France, Spain and England.
That period - 1100 to 1700 - seems to have something of a heyday, the same sort of golden era that characterized the Islamic golden age: something of a rapproachement between faith and reason. At least as long as Reason - "that Whore!" - knew its place, of course ....

Interestingly, Tarnas argues that it was the Protestants with their literalism that forced the Catholic Church into deciding on which side its bread was buttered:
It was antagonism from the Protestant reformers that arose first and most forcefully, and understandably so: the Copernican hypothesis contradicted several passages in Holy Scripture concerning the fixity of the Earth, and Scripture was Protestanism's one absolute authority. ....

With religion and science in such apparent contradiction - and an upstart science at that, a mere novel theory - there was little question for Church authorities as to which system would prevail. Awakened to the dire thoeolgical implications of Copernican astronomy, and further traumatized into dogmatic rigidity by decades of Reformation conflict and heresy, the Catholic Church mustered its considerable powers of suppression and condemned in no uncertain terms the heliocentric hypothesis .... With the Copernican theory, Catholicism's long-held tension between reason and faith had finally snapped. [pgs 252-254]
Though probably agree with you that "The woke are much less tolerant than 17th Century Catholics". As I'd quoted a Fear and Loathing character saying recently, "just sick enough to be totally confident". However, that is not to say that many of the anti-woke aren't as narrow-minded and as dogmatic about their ideological positions, notatably - just for a random example pulled out of the aether ;-) - that "sex is immutable" and based on some "mythic essence". Somewhat apropos of which, part of my "conversation" on a Posie Parker YouTube video:


Lsuoma
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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#3611

Post by Lsuoma »

Couch wrote: :popcorn:
First couple posted.

another lurker
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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#3612

Post by another lurker »

yes, transgenderism IS the fault of feminism

'gender and sex are different'

no they are not!

Steersman
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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#3613

Post by Steersman »

another lurker wrote: yes, transgenderism IS the fault of feminism
So, AL - can I call you Al? ;-) - you're saying transgenderism is only the fault of feminism?

I'd certainly agree that feminist dogma has certainly contributed to the transgender clusterfuck, though largely because of their own rather dogmatic and anti-scientific ideologies. Something that Posie Parker/Kellie-Jay largely agrees with; from the transcript of that video of hers:
@ 9:00 : “notion of a sexed kind of (a) base set of criteria and behaviour which is independent of a body”
@ 9:10 : “maybe gave language to what we now see with transgenderism”
@ 9:13 : “because we decided that how you felt, .... feminists produced rhetoric [philosophy] ... but feminists certainly were sort of saying that we’re all completely equal”
As Posie/Kellie argues, feminists "gave language" that "enabled" the transloonie nutcases, but feminists have muddied the waters by insisting "that we're all completely equal". A pox on both their houses, on transloonies and feminists - for the most part in any case, very few exceptions.

BTW, there's 3 dots in a row over on the right side, just under the video portion; if you click on it then you can read the transcript all at once without having to listen through the ums and the ahs, and irrelevant digressions.

another lurker wrote: 'gender and sex are different'

no they are not!
While I partially agree with your previous shots at feminism and transgenderism, I think that (1) you're barking up the wrong tree there, and that (2) a failure to define exactly what we mean by "sex" and "gender" in the first place is where we are all pretty much going off into the weeds.

Posie had an interview with the Triggernometry fellows where she does, more or less helpfully, illustrate the problem. Here are the links to the "highlights reel" (2 minutes, part 1?) and the full interview (part 2, 67 minutes) followed by salient quotes of Posie's highlites:
Triggernometry: Idea that sex and gender are separate 00:03 that sex is one thing and gender is
00:05 another altogether

Posie Parker: 00:07 : well i think gender is a big fat mistake to even bring it into the world even to give birth to that word is it just is the beginning of such a load of nonsense so i think there is biological sex and I think there are stereotypes and i think there are sex roles and i think there are lots of things associated with me being female and you guys being male um 00:33 the idea that gender exists somewhere that isn't dependent on those things is a stupid stupid argument made up by feminists by some people in universities 00:50
But look closely: Posie is saying that, on the one hand, there's biological sex and then, on the other hand, "there are stereotypes ... and sex roles ... and lots of things associated with [her] being female and you [Triggernometry] guys being males".

However, those "stereotypes and sex roles and things associated with being male and female" is pretty much exactly what the more rational actors in a comedy of errors MEAN by "gender" (see below). So there's Posie more or less insisting that she doesn't "believe" in "gender", but only in "stereotypes, sex roles and associated traits" while throwing stones at people who label those "stereotypes, roles, & associated traits" with the word "gender". What a clusterfuck.

Now you have something of point that - historically and according to the etymological record - the terms "sex" and "gender" have been used more or less synonymously to refer, vaguely, to the same amorphous collection of biological and psychological traits. However, with the advancement of science - Progress!! ;-) - we now have some reason to put the biological traits under the heading of "sex" while the psychological traits are put under the heading of "gender". For instance, see Merriam-Webster:
Among those who study gender and sexuality, a clear delineation between sex and gender is typically prescribed, with sex as the preferred term for biological forms, and gender limited to its meanings involving behavioral, cultural, and psychological traits. In this dichotomy, the terms male and female relate only to biological forms (sex), while the terms masculine/masculinity, feminine/femininity, woman/girl, and man/boy relate only to psychological and sociocultural traits (gender).
I think that's something of a bridge too far, as it conflicts, for example, very badly with the standard definition for "woman" - i.e., "adult human female (produces ova)".

But the British Medical Journal more or less endorses the same dichotomy between the biological and the psychological (basically personalities and personality types):

BMJ_BritishMedicalJournal_SexAndGender1A - Copy.jpg
(163.3 KiB) Downloaded 220 times

So I can sort of sympathize with you and Fafnir and many others who insist that sex and gender refer to the same, vague-to-the-point-of-uselessness, and amorphous set of traits. But the fact of the matter is that there are a great many social issues hanging in the balance, that depend crucially on differentiating between, on the one hand, the biological traits that undergird the process of reproduction and, on the other hand, the psychological traits that are only associated - typically - with those reproductive abilities. Not least of those social issues is kicking transwomen out of women's sports, health spas, toilets and change rooms, and protecting defenseless and dsyphoric children from being turned into sexless eunuchs.

Kinda think those objectives - and many more besides in the same vein - justifies some effort to define our terms in a rational and consistent manner, in a way that we can all agree on. If we can't agree on what words mean then communication and progress is impossible.

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#3614

Post by Service Dog »

Tonight, I watched the 1984 film "Country", free on YouTube.

https://youtu.be/KL87y94IFXM

The movie stars Jessica Lange, her real-life husband Sam Shepard, & Wilford Brimley. Lange was nominated for 'best actress' Oscar, won a Golden Globe & was asked to testify before Congress. The screenwriter later wrote 'The Perfect Storm'.

"Country" depicts the 'Farm Crisis' -- the blowback on American farmers-- of Jimmy Carter's grain embargo against the USSR, in response to the Communists' 1979 invasion of Afghanistan.

The film was shot on-location in an Iowa farm community. I lived a dozen miles west of there at the time, in a larger town, and was going-thru puberty. I haven't seen 'Country' since it came out in the theater.

(I remember everyone-in-town knew when the producers had an open casting call at the hotel 3 blocks from my house. Perhaps some of you have stayed at that hotel... I think it was the traditional location of CFI's annual national meeting/conference/thing. Also the local University is the alma mater of Stef McGraw... when she clashed with Rebecca Watson.)

The movie is accurate. The dialogue is incredibly lifelike & understated. Setting the film in that-particular county-- kinda misses a larger story/ because we also had a large meat packing plant and a John Deere tractor factory there. And the economic-ripple-effect layoffs & shut-downs of those jobs... affected hundreds of workers at-a-time, not one-family-at-a-time. It was bleak. From my young point of view-- it seemed as bad as the Great Depression. Many suicides & shellshocked faces.

But they coulda set the film one-state-over, or 2, in any direction... and still hit bullseye. The movie doesn't show Iowa's rich black soil or lush green months... so it looks more-like Nebraska or Kansas. And, indeed, the pale side of my family tree busted-sod on a farm and was in the middle-of passing it down from 4th to 5th generation... when these event occurred... and by the time they emerged from the 80's... whether they had enough fight to carry-on... was a big question.

Here's a 2021 news story. Not my family, but close-enough. Sounds like not-much has changed, except higher property taxes:

https://www.startribune.com/a-151-year- ... 600126069/

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#3615

Post by fafnir »

Lsuoma wrote: OK, folks. I have decided to release - selectively - some of the FfTB back channel emails. Let me know if there are any subjects you're particularly interested in, and I'll se if there are any hot 'n' juicy nuggets. Can't promise, but let's take a looksee.

As I said earlier, these are from late 2015 (not sure of the start date, but I have some 40,000 emails), but that was around the time FfTB jumped the shark.
Obviously anything with Carrier talking about semen play.

Keating
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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#3616

Post by Keating »

I'm not sure I'd be confident enough to mail my work colleagues about how I enjoyed playing with my (and other people's) semen, but then I'm not Richard Carrier. I'm not even a Bhurzum. So, that would be something to see.

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#3617

Post by MarcusAu »

Keating wrote: I'm not sure I'd be confident enough to mail my work colleagues about how I enjoyed playing with my (and other people's) semen, but then I'm not Richard Carrier. I'm not even a Bhurzum. So, that would be something to see.
...or even read about.

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#3618

Post by fafnir »

Keating wrote: I'm not sure I'd be confident enough to mail my work colleagues about how I enjoyed playing with my (and other people's) semen, but then I'm not Richard Carrier. I'm not even a Bhurzum. So, that would be something to see.
That's because you aren't a sigma male like Richard Carrier.

Maybe there is some, as yet unpublished, Greta Christina erotica?

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#3619

Post by Bhurzum »

Keating wrote: I'm not even a Bhurzum.
We can't all be apex examples of masculine perfection.

https://c.tenor.com/KZdjHFJbsPUAAAAd/flex-im-strong.gif

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#3620

Post by Service Dog »

Censored:


Censored:

Matt Cavanaugh
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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#3621

Post by Matt Cavanaugh »

Democrats whining again about the filibuster just got busted


Service Dog
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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#3622

Post by Service Dog »

.

"Imagine There's No Co-vid..."

-Justices Sotomayor, Kagan, Breyer post quirky inspirational TikTok
ZOOM sing-a-long video/ ruling on vax mandates.

-Carries full force of law.

-100 Million essential workers, 1st responders & military immediately fired. Loss of all benefits, no exemption.

"...its easy if you try"

https://media.patriots.win/post/VDqHr77FUBqn.jpeg

Brive1987
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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#3623

Post by Brive1987 »

Wilderness mysteries no. 347

The Dutch Girls in Panama 2014.

Went for a 3hr return hike to a lookout. Low to moderate difficulty.
Disappeared.

10 weeks later pack turns up on river bank with phones, camera and bras. 14 hours hike the wrong side of the hill.
Eventually 15% of their bones turn up along the river - mixed decomposition and condition. No cause of death.

Camera shows them on hike day on the summit all smiles. And then about 45mins on the other side.
An hour after last photo they try 911 on each phone - no service.
The phones continue to turn on/off to call 911 for the next 5 days.

8 days after hike at 3.00am the camera takes 90 pictures about 1 every two mins for 3 hours. Random jungle shown. And one pic shows the back of one of the girls heads.

11 days after hike phone pin unsuccessfully entered and phones battery dies.

No farewell messages. No selfies after hike day.

Likely foul play, but the continued use of phones and camera is odd.

MarcusAu
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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#3624

Post by MarcusAu »

Brive1987 wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:04 pm

Went for a 3hr return hike to a lookout. Low to moderate difficulty.
Disappeared....
I was wondering what had happened to you...

MarcusAu
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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#3625

Post by MarcusAu »

And in other news - Bob Saget has died.

Don't know if anyone had him in the dead pool...


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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#3626

Post by John D »

MarcusAu wrote: And in other news - Bob Saget has died.

Don't know if anyone had him in the dead pool...

It is a clever bit here because he can tell disgusting jokes and blame them on someone else. It gives the audience permission to laugh because they can pretend they are laughing at his dad and not the joke.

I told my favorite disgusting joke at our New Years party. There were only men within earshot...

It is simple to deliver. When the topic of Santa comes up... or something related... you just tell this short joke. Timing is everything. You can't just tell this joke. The timing has to be right.

In a child's voice you say: "But Santa Claus.... that's not a candy cane!"
In Santa's voice you say: "I don't care kid. Suck it anyway!"

Oh man. I love this joke. It is so vile. My brother laughed and then he was ashamed. I have told this joke to my wife and she was upset... but also thought it was funny. Now all I have to say is... "But Santa Clause" and the joke pops right back into her mind. Haha. Good times.

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#3627

Post by Matt Cavanaugh »

Brive1987 wrote: Wilderness mysteries no. 347

The Dutch Girls in Panama 2014.

Went for a 3hr return hike to a lookout. Low to moderate difficulty.
Disappeared.

10 weeks later pack turns up on river bank with phones, camera and bras. 14 hours hike the wrong side of the hill.
Eventually 15% of their bones turn up along the river - mixed decomposition and condition. No cause of death.

Camera shows them on hike day on the summit all smiles. And then about 45mins on the other side.
An hour after last photo they try 911 on each phone - no service.
The phones continue to turn on/off to call 911 for the next 5 days.

8 days after hike at 3.00am the camera takes 90 pictures about 1 every two mins for 3 hours. Random jungle shown. And one pic shows the back of one of the girls heads.

11 days after hike phone pin unsuccessfully entered and phones battery dies.

No farewell messages. No selfies after hike day.

Likely foul play, but the continued use of phones and camera is odd.
They went hiking in shorts, t-shirts, and sneakers, on an easy trail that wended just outside of the tourist town.
Then they decided to go a ways down the reverse slope of the hill, into the forest, assuming all paths are easy and safe, like in the Netherlands.
They got really lost and were neither dressed nor prepared for a night in the forest.
Shocked that their smart phones wouldn't work like they always do in the Netherlands, they kept turning them on and off.
One of the girls, IIRC, injured her leg.
The next morning, they came upon a house in the woods.
Assuming it would be inhabited by a nice person, like every house in the Netherlands, they went to the house asking for help.
The house's occupant was a bad man who tied them up, raped them repeatedly, then killed them.
He boiled down their bodies in carbolic acid, then tossed their clothes, phones, and what little remained of their bones, in a creek.

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#3628

Post by Matt Cavanaugh »

Seems like they escaped at one point, but were hunted down again, because one of girls was injured.

fafnir
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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#3629

Post by fafnir »

Brive1987 wrote: Wilderness mysteries no. 347

The Dutch Girls in Panama 2014.

Went for a 3hr return hike to a lookout. Low to moderate difficulty.
Disappeared.

10 weeks later pack turns up on river bank with phones, camera and bras. 14 hours hike the wrong side of the hill.
Eventually 15% of their bones turn up along the river - mixed decomposition and condition. No cause of death.

Camera shows them on hike day on the summit all smiles. And then about 45mins on the other side.
An hour after last photo they try 911 on each phone - no service.
The phones continue to turn on/off to call 911 for the next 5 days.

8 days after hike at 3.00am the camera takes 90 pictures about 1 every two mins for 3 hours. Random jungle shown. And one pic shows the back of one of the girls heads.

11 days after hike phone pin unsuccessfully entered and phones battery dies.

No farewell messages. No selfies after hike day.

Likely foul play, but the continued use of phones and camera is odd.
Taking all those photos at night might be attempting to use the flash to navigate? 5 mins on the internet leads me to think the moon wouldn't have been in the sky when the photos were taken, so presumably it was black as shit in the jungle. If the phones were already dead or they were preserving what was left of the battery, maybe the camera was their only source of light?

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#3630

Post by ThreeFlangedJavis »

I think I've found Steersman in the wild. Not what I was expecting!

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#3631

Post by fafnir »

Some sources say they took with them a dog that belonged to the owners of the ‘Il Pianista’ restaurant
and
(unconfirmed information: call attempt 4 (112 and 911) with short-time connection to GSM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deaths_of ... anne_Froon

This is the classic problem with these sorts of cases. How certain are the basic facts of the case? How can it be unconfirmed if they managed to make a 2 second emergency call? The quality of the information behind most of the articles on this case is trash. For all we know they were pushing a wheelbarrow of protein bars and mineral water in front of them when they entered the jungle and them surviving for a week isn't surprising.

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#3632

Post by Matt Cavanaugh »

fafnir wrote: Taking all those photos at night might be attempting to use the flash to navigate? 5 mins on the internet leads me to think the moon wouldn't have been in the sky when the photos were taken, so presumably it was black as shit in the jungle. If the phones were already dead or they were preserving what was left of the battery, maybe the camera was their only source of light?
Plausible.

The Leitmotif of all these disappearances and mishaps is a blithe ignorance of the real world outside of their safe little metropolitan existences. Especially a reliance on smart phones. Fuck, people with T-Moblie can't get a signal at my barn.

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#3633

Post by fafnir »

Matt Cavanaugh wrote:
fafnir wrote: Taking all those photos at night might be attempting to use the flash to navigate? 5 mins on the internet leads me to think the moon wouldn't have been in the sky when the photos were taken, so presumably it was black as shit in the jungle. If the phones were already dead or they were preserving what was left of the battery, maybe the camera was their only source of light?
Plausible.

The Leitmotif of all these disappearances and mishaps is a blithe ignorance of the real world outside of their safe little metropolitan existences. Especially a reliance on smart phones. Fuck, people with T-Moblie can't get a signal at my barn.
Agreed, you get that in all sorts of tragedies. The number of drowned cave divers who clearly had no idea what they were doing, got lost and drowned.... or pilots who crashed after putting themselves in a situation they should never have been in is a lot. Nature is fierce enough to kill you without help from murderers.

The idea that some rapist tour guide killed them, and then faked a bunch of attempts to access the phones and took the photos, and/or manipulated the SD card seems like bullshit to me. The safest thing would be to make sure the phones and camera are gone forever, never to be seen again. It sounds too much like the plot of some shitty modern Agatha Christie clone.

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#3634

Post by fafnir »

Thinking about it, there is a lot of info that must exist if the story is remotely true, but we don't have. Did they turn location services on their phones off, or surely both phones will have been recording GPS location info in some log or other. Given the information that seems to be available it looks like they have accessed the phones, so where is it? There should be a map with a lot of little flags in it for them wandering around the jungle. It's not like they had early 2000s Nokias.

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#3635

Post by Matt Cavanaugh »

Bob Saget -- boosted, then dead.

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#3636

Post by Matt Cavanaugh »

... of a heart attack.

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#3637

Post by Matt Cavanaugh »

... had just gotten over the rona, but got boosted anyway, because science.

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#3638

Post by Lsuoma »

Matt Cavanaugh wrote:
Brive1987 wrote: Wilderness mysteries no. 347

The Dutch Girls in Panama 2014.

Went for a 3hr return hike to a lookout. Low to moderate difficulty.
Disappeared.

10 weeks later pack turns up on river bank with phones, camera and bras. 14 hours hike the wrong side of the hill.
Eventually 15% of their bones turn up along the river - mixed decomposition and condition. No cause of death.

Camera shows them on hike day on the summit all smiles. And then about 45mins on the other side.
An hour after last photo they try 911 on each phone - no service.
The phones continue to turn on/off to call 911 for the next 5 days.

8 days after hike at 3.00am the camera takes 90 pictures about 1 every two mins for 3 hours. Random jungle shown. And one pic shows the back of one of the girls heads.

11 days after hike phone pin unsuccessfully entered and phones battery dies.

No farewell messages. No selfies after hike day.

Likely foul play, but the continued use of phones and camera is odd.
They went hiking in shorts, t-shirts, and sneakers, on an easy trail that wended just outside of the tourist town.
Then they decided to go a ways down the reverse slope of the hill, into the forest, assuming all paths are easy and safe, like in the Netherlands.
They got really lost and were neither dressed nor prepared for a night in the forest.
Shocked that their smart phones wouldn't work like they always do in the Netherlands, they kept turning them on and off.
One of the girls, IIRC, injured her leg.
The next morning, they came upon a house in the woods.
Assuming it would be inhabited by a nice person, like every house in the Netherlands, they went to the house asking for help.
The house's occupant was a bad man who tied them up, raped them repeatedly, then killed them.
He boiled down their bodies in carbolic acid, then tossed their clothes, phones, and what little remained of their bones, in a creek.
Tucker & Dale vs Evil

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#3639

Post by Brive1987 »

Matt Cavanaugh wrote:
Brive1987 wrote: Wilderness mysteries no. 347

The Dutch Girls in Panama 2014.

Went for a 3hr return hike to a lookout. Low to moderate difficulty.
Disappeared.

10 weeks later pack turns up on river bank with phones, camera and bras. 14 hours hike the wrong side of the hill.
Eventually 15% of their bones turn up along the river - mixed decomposition and condition. No cause of death.

Camera shows them on hike day on the summit all smiles. And then about 45mins on the other side.
An hour after last photo they try 911 on each phone - no service.
The phones continue to turn on/off to call 911 for the next 5 days.

8 days after hike at 3.00am the camera takes 90 pictures about 1 every two mins for 3 hours. Random jungle shown. And one pic shows the back of one of the girls heads.

11 days after hike phone pin unsuccessfully entered and phones battery dies.

No farewell messages. No selfies after hike day.

Likely foul play, but the continued use of phones and camera is odd.
They went hiking in shorts, t-shirts, and sneakers, on an easy trail that wended just outside of the tourist town.
Then they decided to go a ways down the reverse slope of the hill, into the forest, assuming all paths are easy and safe, like in the Netherlands.
They got really lost and were neither dressed nor prepared for a night in the forest.
Shocked that their smart phones wouldn't work like they always do in the Netherlands, they kept turning them on and off.
One of the girls, IIRC, injured her leg.
The next morning, they came upon a house in the woods.
Assuming it would be inhabited by a nice person, like every house in the Netherlands, they went to the house asking for help.
The house's occupant was a bad man who tied them up, raped them repeatedly, then killed them.
He boiled down their bodies in carbolic acid, then tossed their clothes, phones, and what little remained of their bones, in a creek.
It’s a theory. The nice thing about these cases is that you know there’s a RL explanation, there’s enough facts to consider. And the challenge is making as many work as possible. The frustration is there’s no final answers- just probabilities. But there’s the tease more evidence might emerge.

In your scenario. They wore mid height hiking boots. You don’t need a survival cache for a clearly marked 2hr up / 1 hr down hike.

Every followup party declared the path up to and over the summit mitigated against getting lost. It was a singular track without deviation.

It’s unclear what destination they could have had in mind past the “second creek” as the path simply leds on for hours. In any case the first call is timed at either the second creek or post return to summit. It’s unlikely they did return to summit as their phones never regained network coverage (which has a summit threshold)

They may have been lost, but their capacity to survive (plenty of water) was possibly evidenced by 5 days, possibly 11 days (bullshit) of phone usage.

It’s unlikely the backpack was in a creek or in its final location for multiple weeks - condition and state of the contents.

It’s unclear why a denizen of a cabin in the woods would have called SOS in a scheduled pattern on their phones and played with their camera at 3:00am and then delivered it all up to authorities.

It’s unclear why their scant remains would have been deposited along a populated river where they were likely to be found.

Lisanne’s foot had broken bone injuries consistent with a high fall. Her boot was still laced in place with a sock. Making extended rape possible but less likely. It’s not clear how much forensic confidence can be placed on the condition of a detached foot.

Re the phones and GSM. I’m not sure how well an iPhone 4 records GPS out of range, mostly turned off and in an area described as “cloud mountains”. The Samsung was of similar vintage.

A lost for 5 / 11 days scenario has to account for the lack of personal messages or selfies. The failure to call any number other than 911.
The failure for search parties to locate them - unprecedented in that area - its simply too hard to accidentally move off trail. Then there’s the persistent battery life of the phones even with turn off and on. There’s the unaccountable overnight turn-on but non-use of the Samsung that drained it. And the infamous deleted picture number 509 which must have occurred posthoc after the Day 8 night shots to retain the numbering gap.

A kidnapped scenario has to account for the shit disposal of bodies and backpack. And build a complex conspiracy of fake distress calls over multiple days using multiple phones gaining access to multiple pins. Possible but in opposition to a simple explanation.

Re evidence. We have the phone network logs up to the summit. The photos and photo timestamps (no dog shown) And the attempted call logs on the phones themselves. Apart from the recovered pack and remains. There was an unconsumed sweet in the bag.

All in all I suspect foul play - having had to overcome a natural inclination for simplicity. And after watching conspiracy theories re the British hiker lost in the Pyrenees and AT lost hiker come crashing down.

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#3640

Post by fafnir »

Brive1987 wrote: Re the phones and GSM. I’m not sure how well an iPhone 4 records GPS out of range, mostly turned off and in an area described as “cloud mountains”. The Samsung was of similar vintage.
I would be surprised it didn't at least record something when it first established it's location after being switched on, or when a new satellite is acquired. Ignoring the technical, debug information.... doesn't location info have commercial value? It uses no space. I would be very surprised if it recorded no location info. Also, Wikipedia has "either no PIN or a wrong PIN code was entered" repeatedly in the list of activities recorded on the phones. The phones don't log the difference between no PIN being entered and an incorrect PIN? That seems odd.
Brive1987 wrote: A lost for 5 / 11 days scenario has to account for the lack of personal messages or selfies.
Are we 100% sure there aren't any? Do they actually have access to the phones memory? The news stories are contradictory and unreliable. The phone cameras weren't as good as the Canon one, but no selfies at all? You'd have thought we'd at least know from the signal strength of the last ping from a tower how far away they were. There is so much missing information.
Brive1987 wrote: The failure to call any number other than 911.
Why would they call another number if the emergency one didn't work? I thought there was some system whereby emergency calls would use any available network.
Brive1987 wrote: The failure for search parties to locate them - unprecedented in that area - its simply too hard to accidentally move off trail.
I haven't seen information on how extensive the search was. Geraldine Largay wasn't too far from the path and she wasn't found until much later.
Brive1987 wrote: Then there’s the persistent battery life of the phones even with turn off and on.
I don't think we have enough reliable information to know how surprising that was. I'm pretty sure if I only turned my iphone on every few hours, and just checked reception, it would last multiple days.
Brive1987 wrote: There’s the unaccountable overnight turn-on but non-use of the Samsung that drained it.
Are we sure that happened? If it did, what did the phone log say happened while it was on? If it was on, maybe they were using the light from it?
Brive1987 wrote: And the infamous deleted picture number 509 which must have occurred posthoc after the Day 8 night shots to retain the numbering gap.
Must nothing. Are we sure there is actually a gap? I can't find an official source confirming this. Maybe it just hasn't been released? The document I read about this said the camera had two modes, the default one would work more or less as you describe, the other mode would not reuse a number even if it had been deleted. Presumably the police know what mode the camera was in, we don't. Have the police stated there is a mystery here?
Brive1987 wrote: A kidnapped scenario has to account for the shit disposal of bodies and backpack. And build a complex conspiracy of fake distress calls over multiple days using multiple phones gaining access to multiple pins. Possible but in opposition to a simple explanation.
I agree, if it is a kidnap/murder, and the facts are as they appear, the story is bizarre.
Brive1987 wrote: Re evidence. We have the phone network logs up to the summit. The photos and photo timestamps (no dog shown)
Indeed, where does the idea of a dog come from? The data we are working from is a jumbled mess.
Brive1987 wrote: And the attempted call logs on the phones themselves. Apart from the recovered pack and remains. There was an unconsumed sweet in the bag.
I agree that the finding of the bag, as it is told in these unreliable sources sounds suspicious. Equally, I don't entirely trust the shitty sources. As for the call logs, I just throw that into the general bucked of claims that don't entirely make sense and for which I haven't seen a reliable source.
Brive1987 wrote: All in all I suspect foul play - having had to overcome a natural inclination for simplicity. And after watching conspiracy theories re the British hiker lost in the Pyrenees and AT lost hiker come crashing down.
The quality of the reporting on this case looks much worse than the Pyrenees one. It's like trying to find out what happened on Jan 6th via a translation of reporting that for all we know is by Rachel Maddow. We could easily be massively wrong about huge chunks of this.

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#3641

Post by Steersman »

ThreeFlangedJavis wrote: I think I've found Steersman in the wild. Not what I was expecting!
https://youtu.be/yvQ6ppE7tKo?t=507
:-) But what a freak show: "Reacting to the MOST INSANE Woke Tik Toks (ft. Michael Malice)", indeed.

Though not sure that Blaire White - "herself" - isn't a major contender for the booby(hatch) prize in that contest. But nice tits and all that - wonder whether Bhurzum would have chased that if he didn't know what was actually - previously? - under the hood ... ;-)

But what a clusterfuck created by the dichotomy between sex and gender; somewhat amusingly, Jerry Coyne has a recent post on the topic - "Let a million genders blossom". Although he helpfully suggests a variation that hasn't been identified yet, but that some here may want to "identify" as ... ;-)
But why isn't there an "Antivaxgender", one that feels persecuted and resistant?
But "Ze/zir" has something of a point:
08:46 : I have a question. What is a woman? It should be a very simple question to answer. What is a woman? Until that can be answered, how could we have a discussion about trans issues, biological women issues, things like that. Can anybody just give a definition of what a woman?
But the problem, or difficulty, there is that, in part, far too many "women" refuse to answer that question with any degree of honesty and specificity because they've turned a word that denotes a category name and members of it into some sort of "immutable identity" based on some je ne sais quoi and mythic essence. About the most rational compromise is to define "woman" as a gender - any one of a myriad of collections of physiological and psychological traits that are typical of "adult human females [those with functional ovaries]" - and to define "male" and "female" as those who actually do have functional gonads of either of two - count 'em, two - types.

Which is more or less exactly what Merriam-Webster's "usage note" on gender specifies - which I elaborated on in a comment on a Triggernometry YouTube video.

In which case, one might reasonably suggest that "Ze/zir" and the rest of their ilk has as much right to claim the exalted mantle of "woman", the golden apple "for the fairest", to claim any of the "rights" and "cachets" that those on the distaff side here - HunnyBunny or AnotherLurker for examples ... ;-) - might think is reserved exclusively for "adult human females" alone.

However, that emphasizes and draws attention to the fact that a more credible and justified definition for "woman" is that "adult human female". Which of course excludes Ze/zir and "his" ilk; as feminist "philosopher" Jane Clare Jones once cogently and succinctly put it:
Trans woman: Ok, but why would you want to define woman as “adult human female” and define “female” like that? That excludes trans women.

JCJ: We’re not trying to exclude you from the category of female. You just are excluded. Because you’re not female.
But, as Helen Joyce - Herself - once put it, categories are not designed to be "inclusive"; they're "designed" to allow us to differentiate between things that qualify for certain purposes and uses, and things that don't: prime, composite; edible, inedible; fertile, infertile; fuckable, unfuckable; etc, etc, etc. What a concept ... :roll:

Quillette_Joyce_SheWhoMustNotBeNamed1B.jpg
(114.57 KiB) Downloaded 80 times

Not for nothing is taxonomy often considered a more solid contender for the title of "the oldest profession".

However, many "women" are also part of the problem because far too many refuse to face the consequences of the "adult human female [produces ova]" definition - they lose their "female" membership card at menopause; they too refuse to face the fact that defining "female" as "produces ova" excludes those who can't. Tough titties "girls", suck it up buttercups.

So, a "catfight" over that golden apple for the fairest: transwomen being rather dementedly desperate - not to say "crazier than shit-house rats" - to be included in the category "woman", while many "women" - nominally speaking, honourary or otherwise - insist (also) on making a category name into an identify. Pandering to either transwomen's envious delusions or to woman's ravening vanity seems to qualify as the proximate cause for the whole transgender clusterfuck, and all of its odious consequences - like butchering defenseless children. A pox on both their houses - and on those of all of their enablers and "useful idiots".

But as Ze/zir cogently argues - some method in his madness, though maybe he's just taking one for the team: "Until that [question] can be answered, how could we have a discussion about trans issues, biological women issues, things like that?"

Reminds me of a conversation that I had had with Anjuli Pandavar some 4 years ago, and that I think I referred to above. She - as a more or less "autonomous individual", at least a rational one - has something of a point or two, although she is clearly "unclear" on the concept of science and taxonomy:
I say gamete production is not the problem, secondarily, because of postmodernism, identity activism, and in this case, trans-activism, do not address themselves to the fundamental distinction between male and female.

That is not what they are about.

Aside from the enormous damage postmodernism and trans-activism continue to do to our efforts to get to the bottom of what is, at the end of the day, a medical condition, viz., gender dysphoria, dealing with it the way Wiggins does is to set up two dogmas to shout at each other about which is the True God, for he is as unscientific as many of those he accuses of it.

Notwithstanding our lack of knowledge, we do find ourselves today in a situation where we are medically capable of offering permanent relief from gender dysphoria through enabling an individual to undergo a transformation from one physical sex to the other.
Simply and profoundly clueless that the biological definition for the sexes stipulates that to have a sex is to be able to produce either of two - count 'em, two - types of gametes. And likewise that there is, thereby, no way - on gawd's green earth - that any human is ever going to undergo - successively - "a transformation from one physical sex to the other".

That's the rot that transwomen's envy, women's vanity, scientific illiteracy, "virulently anti-science and anti-intellectual" sentiments, and putting what feels good over what is actually true has wrought; a cast of thousands if not billions in a crime of the century.

Bravo. :clap: :roll:

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#3642

Post by Matt Cavanaugh »

Fauci had Covid engineered in Wuhan after DARPA (US military research) rejected it for violating the Gain of Function ban:

https://amgreatness.com/2022/01/11/form ... -for-bats/

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#3643

Post by Steersman »

Matt Cavanaugh wrote: Fauci had Covid engineered in Wuhan after DARPA (US military research) rejected it for violating the Gain of Function ban:

https://amgreatness.com/2022/01/11/form ... -for-bats/
In other news, Germany stages several false flag border incidents as a pretext to initiate the invasion of Poland ... ;-)

Maybe it's the case that Fauci was funding "gain of function", and maybe there was some "lab leak" involved. But as your article claims, what was supposedly being developed was a vaccine that was to be aerosolized. Bit hard then to see how that supposedly qualifies as evidence of Gates and his minions trying to reduce the world population to manageable levels or to develop any biological weapons ...

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#3644

Post by Service Dog »

Washington D.C. Mayor Muriel Bowser tweets that you cannot go "out" without vaccination, proof of vaccination, photo ID, and mask.



Racial Discrimination used to determine who gets US Govt covid treatments:




These people would certainly do or say _anything_ to help their partisan political cause.

They would lie about cause of death. They would deprive patients of care. They would lie about effective treatments.

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#3645

Post by Steersman »

Service Dog wrote: Washington D.C. Mayor Muriel Bowser tweets that you cannot go "out" without vaccination, proof of vaccination, photo ID, and mask.

https://i.imgur.com/1heTQKy.png

Racial Discrimination used to determine who gets US Govt covid treatments:

https://youtu.be/u8ywWgNEYuQ


These people would certainly do or say _anything_ to help their partisan political cause.

They would lie about cause of death. They would deprive patients of care. They would lie about effective treatments.
In other news on the Covid front from maybe less biased sources ... ;-)
As Quebec officials consider tightening rules for the unvaccinated, health experts in the province say expanding the vaccine passport system is justified because of the high number of COVID-19 patients in hospital who have refused to be jabbed.

Quebec's college of physicians said Friday the vaccine passport should be required for places like large department stores, libraries and museums.

[Health Minister] Dubé has repeatedly said that 10 per cent of Quebec adults are unvaccinated but represent about 50 per cent of COVID-19-related hospitalizations.

Data published by the Health Ministry on Monday indicates that 32 per cent of the 4,094 people hospitalized with COVID-19 in the past 28 days had either been unvaccinated or were fewer than 14 days removed from their first dose. ...
https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/tightening- ... -1.5735177

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#3646

Post by fafnir »

It turns out Steven Crowder has hopped on the Steersman train:

1hr10mins in.

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#3647

Post by Bhurzum »

I think I linked her amazing cover of "Closer" a while ago. Anyway, check out her brilliant rendition of another NiN track!



Yes, I'm in love...again.

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#3648

Post by fafnir »

About the dead dutch girls. It reminds me quite a bit of the way the Amanda Knox case felt when it was eating the JREF. On the one hand you have a fairly straightforward tragedy whose main elements can be understood in 30 seconds. You've then got a group of people who are emotionally committed to a view of the case, who have contacts that allow them to access and produce official documents that may or may not be representative of the totality of the evidence. They have produced enough material and analysis of that material that it becomes difficult to see the wood for the trees. The problem is made worse by the lack of a similarly resourced and motivated counter narrative.

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#3649

Post by Brive1987 »

fafnir wrote:
Brive1987 wrote: Re the phones and GSM. I’m not sure how well an iPhone 4 records GPS out of range, mostly turned off and in an area described as “cloud mountains”. The Samsung was of similar vintage.
I would be surprised it didn't at least record something when it first established it's location after being switched on, or when a new satellite is acquired. Ignoring the technical, debug information.... doesn't location info have commercial value? It uses no space. I would be very surprised if it recorded no location info. Also, Wikipedia has "either no PIN or a wrong PIN code was entered" repeatedly in the list of activities recorded on the phones. The phones don't log the difference between no PIN being entered and an incorrect PIN? That seems odd.

**SNIP**
Re GPS.
The most detailed technical review of the phone data notes that "There is no GPS data available for either phone for the time period past 01 April". I don't know what to make of that. The Dutch forensics didn't raise it as an issue. I'd need to know more about the iPhone4. I don't seriously believe GPS data is being wilfully withheld (or its unexpected absence is being wilfully suppressed) by the Dutch.

Re the pin, apparently you don't need a pin to access emergency numbers on the phone and weirdly the iPhone here required a pin to unlock it AND a separate pin for the SIM. By the 11th whoever was using the iPhone knew one pin but not the other.

The article is well worth a read - very interesting and very detailed.
https://imperfectplan.com/2021/03/10/kr ... hone-data/

The apparent daylight scheduled 911 attempts is striking.

Re Selfies.
All photos appear to come from the Canon camera. The last signal ping is known - it's when they were on top of the mountain and coverage stopped.

Re 911.
My mistake, they tried both 911 and the local emergency number. 911 would have routed to Panama emergency.

Re Search.
It was extensive and included rappels down hill sides, helicopters, local dog teams and a specialist Dutch unit - as well as ground teams. It began within a day or so. The search for Geraldine was initially focused too far north due to a mistaken ID. However, clearly the search didn't find either lost party. That much is obvious.

Re Phone Battery.
Both phones started with about 50% battery. I have seen a comment that the iPhone should have run out - I could be wrong. The referenced article tracks battery life.

Re Samsung.
Yes it happened based on on phone battery log. Use as a torch during night move possible. Pretty desperate to not wait till day-break though. But meh.

Re 509.
Definitely deleted. Read this by a tech photographer - very very detailed review of camera modes and scandisk cards.
https://imperfectplan.com/2021/04/06/kr ... -sx270-hs/

Re Dog.
Dog definitely a thing in general - its been pictured and accompanied Kris' parents on their retrace movie a couple of months later. When it accompanied them on April 1 is tangential and possibly just chatter by the restaurant owners/papers.

The video is well worth watching as the parents on the ground decide that getting lost wasn't an option and there was no likely on-trail accident site.



Re Call logs.
See phone article above.

You may also be interested in this article where last year a team directly surveyed the terrain including drones and identified a likely off track point - a third river past where 508 was taken where swimming was a possibility.
https://imperfectplan.com/2021/11/21/pa ... -overview/

I think you are overstating the alleged lack of evidence. Yes there's gaps. But there's also a shed load of data sifted through by the Dutch - where this was a VERY high profile case.

I also think you are understating causal ambiguity. This isn't an 'obvious' closed case.

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#3650

Post by fafnir »

Brive1987 wrote:
fafnir wrote:
Brive1987 wrote: Re the phones and GSM. I’m not sure how well an iPhone 4 records GPS out of range, mostly turned off and in an area described as “cloud mountains”. The Samsung was of similar vintage.
I would be surprised it didn't at least record something when it first established it's location after being switched on, or when a new satellite is acquired. Ignoring the technical, debug information.... doesn't location info have commercial value? It uses no space. I would be very surprised if it recorded no location info. Also, Wikipedia has "either no PIN or a wrong PIN code was entered" repeatedly in the list of activities recorded on the phones. The phones don't log the difference between no PIN being entered and an incorrect PIN? That seems odd.

**SNIP**
Re GPS.
The most detailed technical review of the phone data notes that "There is no GPS data available for either phone for the time period past 01 April". I don't know what to make of that. The Dutch forensics didn't raise it as an issue. I'd need to know more about the iPhone4. I don't seriously believe GPS data is being wilfully withheld (or its unexpected absence is being wilfully suppressed) by the Dutch.
Are the Dutch police asserting this one way or another? I see a lot of amature investigators asserting a lot of things. You see this where they are going over the metadata on the leaked downscaled photos to prove they have been manipulated by a computer. Presumably the people who need to have access to the originals have access to them. If the Dutch police complain about this too, then it is a discovery.
Brive1987 wrote: Re the pin, apparently you don't need a pin to access emergency numbers on the phone and weirdly the iPhone here required a pin to unlock it AND a separate pin for the SIM. By the 11th whoever was using the iPhone knew one pin but not the other.
We don't know that they didn't know the PIN, just that they didn't enter it.
Brive1987 wrote: The article is well worth a read - very interesting and very detailed.
https://imperfectplan.com/2021/03/10/kr ... hone-data/
Again, how reliable is this information? It looks like they have some access to materials from the case, but how many of the questions they raise have already been answered by the police?
Brive1987 wrote: The apparent daylight scheduled 911 attempts is striking.
I see calls at around 16:45, 17:00, 07:00, 08:00, 11:00 and 09:30. All we are remarking on is that they didn't phone at night, there was a gap on the afternoon of the day after they disappeared when they didn't call, and they stop trying to call after the morning of the second day. Maybe after midday on their first full day of being missing they had more or less given up on making a phone call?
Brive1987 wrote: Re Selfies.
All photos appear to come from the Canon camera. The last signal ping is known - it's when they were on top of the mountain and coverage stopped.
I know all the photos we have appear to come from the Canon camera. What we have seems to be material that amateur internet detectives somehow got hold of. You see comments about there being more photos, that may be just blackness, that they don't have. The internet detectives are trying to interpret confusing low res objects in downscaled pictures. Do we actually have the police confirming of the things being claimed by the internet detectives, like the missing picture?
Brive1987 wrote: Re 911.
My mistake, they tried both 911 and the local emergency number. 911 would have routed to Panama emergency.

Re Search.
It was extensive and included rappels down hill sides, helicopters, local dog teams and a specialist Dutch unit - as well as ground teams. It began within a day or so. The search for Geraldine was initially focused too far north due to a mistaken ID. However, clearly the search didn't find either lost party. That much is obvious.
Clearly the searches didn't find them. I believe one searcher for Geraldine came within a few metres of her tent and failed to see it while she was still alive. It can be very difficult, but equally it looked like she was in some kind of confused mental state and might have been hiding.

I assume that they walked the river and were calling out such that if the girls were alive and in that location they would have been found, but that is an assumption. Maybe they didn't?
Brive1987 wrote: Re Phone Battery.
Both phones started with about 50% battery. I have seen a comment that the iPhone should have run out - I could be wrong. The referenced article tracks battery life.
50% power, not using apps and turning the phone off most of the time, the phones would have lasted a while. It's a bit hard to tell because the difference between what a battery in good condition will do compared to one in a bad condition is a lot. I don't see much that is technically in need of explanation about the battery of the phones.
Brive1987 wrote: Re Samsung.
Yes it happened based on on phone battery log. Use as a torch during night move possible. Pretty desperate to not wait till day-break though. But meh.
One of the amateur detectives seems to show the photos were mostly just different different angles of the same location from the same place, mostly looking up into the branches of the trees.
Brive1987 wrote: Re 509.
Definitely deleted. Read this by a tech photographer - very very detailed review of camera modes and scandisk cards.
https://imperfectplan.com/2021/04/06/kr ... -sx270-hs/
Again, this is an amateur detective, not the dutch police. Who is officially saying that there is a missing photo? further, read the section of that link about the auto reset mode.
Note that the camera has 2 methods of numbering images. “Auto Reset” and “Continuous”. The differences relevant to this situation is that “Auto Reset” will give the next image a number sequential to the last image taken, regardless if the number was already used before. If Image 509 was deleted before 510 was taken, the camera would use image number 509 again.
If the camera was in that mode, all be it not the default, then the missing image is maybe less mysterious. The person writing the analysis doesn't know what the mode of the camera was in because he is analysing third hand leaked information.
Brive1987 wrote: Re Dog.
Dog definitely a thing in general - its been pictured and accompanied Kris' parents on their retrace movie a couple of months later. When it accompanied them on April 1 is tangential and possibly just chatter by the restaurant owners/papers.
This is the point though. Lots of the things we think we know could be just chatter.
Brive1987 wrote: The video is well worth watching as the parents on the ground decide that getting lost wasn't an option and there was no likely on-trail accident site.
Them thinking it wasn't likely that the girls would have left the path is fine or had an accident is fine, but something unlikely clearly happened. Maybe they left the path after all?
You may also be interested in this article where last year a team directly surveyed the terrain including drones and identified a likely off track point - a third river past where 508 was taken where swimming was a possibility.
https://imperfectplan.com/2021/11/21/pa ... -overview/
One of the big objections I have with their analysis is the idea that people aren't going to make obviously stupid mistakes. When you are talking about a rare event like two people disappearing, a course of action being really dumb or out of character doesn't really rule it out.
I think you are overstating the alleged lack of evidence. Yes there's gaps. But there's also a shed load of data sifted through by the Dutch - where this was a VERY high profile case.
Sure, but what we are looking at is the analysis of a bunch of internet detectives. It's not the work of the Dutch police that I am questioning.
Brive1987 wrote: I also think you are understating causal ambiguity. This isn't an 'obvious' closed case.
I didn't say it was closed. Maybe if I had access to the information the Dutch or Panamanian police have, I would think differently? At the moment, I don't see what is impossible about them having stupidly gone further down the path and left then left the path, or maybe waded down the river seen in the video. So long as they didn't do anything dumb, they couldn't have gotten lost. Maybe they did something dumb?

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#3651

Post by Matt Cavanaugh »

I think you are overstating the alleged lack of evidence. Yes there's gaps. But there's also a shed load of data sifted through by the Dutch - where this was a VERY high profile case.
I think fafnir's point was that the press do a shitty job presenting the details of cases like these, omitting important details, while confusing or misstating others. The timeline is the key to solving disappearances and crimes; the timeline is usually bolloxed by the media.

NB: I'm working with what I remember off the top of my head, having read about this case a few years ago. You seem to have all the details spread out in front of you, then nit-pick (e.g., hiking boots vs. sneakers, when the gist is, the girls weren't properly equipped for an extended stay in the jungle.). One can often not see the forest for the trees. Do one of your maps for us -- they always help put things in perspective.

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#3652

Post by fafnir »

Matt Cavanaugh wrote: I think fafnir's point was that the press do a shitty job presenting the details of cases like these, omitting important details, while confusing or misstating others. The timeline is the key to solving disappearances and crimes; the timeline is usually bolloxed by the media.
You than have the locals potentially not being wholly truthful, local police potentially being incompetent and also maybe motivated to close the case. That is then passed through journalists and amateurs operating across multiple language barriers. I don't know what the point is without more access to the evidence than any of these amateurs seem to have. If the families wanted to pursue it, I imagine they have access to the case files.

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#3653

Post by Matt Cavanaugh »

One of the big objections I have with their analysis is the idea that people aren't going to make obviously stupid mistakes. When you are talking about a rare event like two people disappearing, a course of action being really dumb or out of character doesn't really rule it out.
[....]
Maybe they did something dumb?
They clearly weren't of low intelligence, likely very bright. But anyone working off a flawed model can easily make grave mistakes. Model of how nature works; i.e., gross underestimation of its power and danger. Model of human nature; i.e., false assumption that everyone is nice and obeys [your] societal rules all the time. Youth, do-gooders, are especially prone to this mistake -- because I'm being nice to you, care about you lot, you all will be nice back. I noted these girls went to Panama 'to help children'.

Either or both of those flawed models could've gotten these girls killed, when from their perspective they weren't doing anything risky or out of the ordinary.

I also think it's way too risky for women to travel alone, without the company of a man, in much of the world.

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#3654

Post by Service Dog »

Matt Cavanaugh wrote: Fauci had Covid engineered in Wuhan after DARPA (US military research) rejected it for violating the Gain of Function ban:

https://amgreatness.com/2022/01/11/form ... -for-bats/
I think Veritas is using Rachel Maddow standards-of-evidence here.
These documents are a 'Steele Dossier', with this USMC Murphy guy in the role of Christopher Steele.

I'd wait until someone like Scott Horton or Glenn Greenwald or Edward Snowden vets the claims & provides corroborating evidence.

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#3655

Post by fafnir »

Matt Cavanaugh wrote: I also think it's way too risky for women to travel alone, without the company of a man, in much of the world.
This for sure in many parts of the world. Wasn't there some woke rag a couple of years ago advocating women go on unaccompanied treks in rural pakistan etc?

This might be it.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/breannawil ... 44bd582707
She heads into "Taliban territory" to stay with a family for 10 months. What could go wrong with lone bouji white women wandering amongst muslim peasants?

Still in the brave new world, unless we are the Eloi, we won't be able to travel to these places anyway.

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#3656

Post by Lsuoma »

Matt Cavanaugh wrote:
One of the big objections I have with their analysis is the idea that people aren't going to make obviously stupid mistakes. When you are talking about a rare event like two people disappearing, a course of action being really dumb or out of character doesn't really rule it out.
[....]
Maybe they did something dumb?
They clearly weren't of low intelligence, likely very bright. But anyone working off a flawed model can easily make grave mistakes. Model of how nature works; i.e., gross underestimation of its power and danger. Model of human nature; i.e., false assumption that everyone is nice and obeys [your] societal rules all the time. Youth, do-gooders, are especially prone to this mistake -- because I'm being nice to you, care about you lot, you all will be nice back. I noted these girls went to Panama 'to help children'.

Either or both of those flawed models could've gotten these girls killed, when from their perspective they weren't doing anything risky or out of the ordinary.

I also think it's way too risky for women to travel alone, without the company of a man, in much of the world.
Pit Talib!!!

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#3657

Post by Matt Cavanaugh »

Well now -- this blog postulates that the girls* didn't die on the trail, but rather were murdered by sopiopathic gang members they were hanging out with (and likely flirting with.)

https://koudekaas.blogspot.com/2021/07/ ... mming.html


And more and more, it sounds like they were dangerously naive, heading off from the safety of a tourist trap, to do inchoate Good Works, without a plan or proper prior preparation, in a drug mafia shithole.

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#3658

Post by Matt Cavanaugh »

* and I'm calling them girls, not out of sexism, but in deference to their street smarts mental age.

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#3659

Post by Matt Cavanaugh »

fafnir wrote: Still in the brave new world, unless we are the Eloi, we won't be able to travel to these places anyway.
Setting aside your mixing of science fiction metaphors. -- so don't go. They're all shitholes, anyway. Beautiful scenery, sure, but you will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.

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Re: Steerzing in a New Direction...

#3660

Post by Lsuoma »

Looks like you dead travelers fans would appreciate this new book:


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