You is all a bunch of poofs!

Hunt
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Re: You is all a bunch of poofs!

#7501

Post by Hunt » Sat Sep 28, 2019 3:02 am

Oh, I'm sure the pit is going to love the continuation of this drama...
Matt Cavanaugh wrote: Why'd you have to go and make it about race? I'm enthusiastic about cops gunning down perps of all backgrounds!
Yes, I've noticed.
Matt Cavanaugh wrote: Your 'video evidence' consists of posting the Walter Scott and Philandro Castile shootings over and over. Nobody is defending those. Why do you continue to engage in the intellectually dishonest tactic of strawmanning?
Don't forge your assertion that Laquan McD "lunged" at cops a moment before getting shot. Unless you consider his spinning around from bullet impact "lunging", an unusual interpretation. The lunge propaganda story was floated before the video footage was made public. Everyone (without motivated reasoning) had ample time to correct their misapprehension. Also don't forget "Frame 394", produced by Fat Cracka and Cruella de Vil, an absurd attempt to justify gunning down a fleeing man. (You seemed to endorse it.)

Of course, there are many, many other instances of questionable police use of force, some recorded, some not. While this constitutes anecdotal evidence, I note in passing that the plural of anecdote is data (in a loose sense; let's not get pedantic). Plus there are no complete statistics! No government agency, from the FBI on down, has rigorously collected data on police use of force! Congress has requested it, and it has been ignored. Within the past decade private groups and now some agencies are just beginning to get disciplined about it.
Matt Cavanaugh wrote: You've still failed to quantify the extent of the alleged police abuse of force
I already cited Hirschfield's article,and you didn't like its provenance. Actually, the issues you raise should probably have been more appropriately addressed to how I used the reference. Hirschfield was attempting to explain why American cops are more lethal than in almost all other western nations, which is a fact. He uses data from countries not directly comparable to the US, but there are no countries directly comparable to the US! He was remarkably expansive in his hypotheses, and I see nothing wrong with that. His contention, and I mostly agree, is that gun prevalence is the main factor.

In the article (and in the comments) Hirschfield explains that comparison to European counties is not so "apples to oranges" as one might think, even accounting for disparity of crime rate, US cops are still way more lethal.

My question is, if we're not going to shed light on the subject, given the lack of data collected by US agencies, by comparison to other countries, how do you propose we do it? Do we just...not do it, according to you?

Hirschfield addresses the "apples to oranges" issue in the comments:
Hirschfield wrote:in reply to Johnnie Loftus
You point to some issues that I did not adequately address owing to a lack of data. I did not cherry pick countries or explanations of elevated police lethality in the U.S. I reported all the Euro countries I could find info. on. The only one I excluded was Iceland because their police are not lethal. I agree that European countries are different from the U.S. in many ways. That is why my explanation points to so many different factors. Does this mean I should have focused solely on a country that is more similar to the U.S.–like Canada? Perhaps. But I still think we have much to learn from European models of policing. Their ability to respond to volatile and violent situations without killing people or dying is laudable, and it does raise questions about whether there are alternatives to our system, which unnecessarily exacts thousands of lives and billions of dollars.
(I note that Canadian cops are six times less lethal than American cops, if that comparison makes you happier.)
https://online.wlu.ca/news/2017/01/03/p ... licing-usa
Hirschfield wrote:in reply to Johnnie Loftus
You state that Denmark is a “weak example” yet you haven’t really explained why. Differences in violent crime btw the U.S. and Denmark are clearly not large enough to explain the difference in deadly force so why not explain the reasoning behind your critique a little better? In any case it is unclear to me why you are fixated on Denmark. I did not fixate on it. It is mentioned by name in the first paragraph only because it has the highest rate among the European countries with accessible data. If you know of a European country with higher rates of deadly force than Denmark I would love to hear about it and your explanation its lower rate vs. the U.S.

Please explain why it is inappropriate or insulting to ask why Danish and other European police are less likely to respond to unstable and volatile people (including those armed with knives and the unarmed) with deadly force. And, if it is a worthy question, what is your answer?

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Re: You is all a bunch of poofs!

#7502

Post by Driftless » Sat Sep 28, 2019 4:35 am

A joke:


Service Dog
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Re: You is all a bunch of poofs!

#7503

Post by Service Dog » Sat Sep 28, 2019 5:00 am

John D wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:34 pm
KiwiInOz wrote:
So, you're saying it was just a one time thing.
So.... I designed the longest bridge ever made... and... you would think they would call me John the bridge builder......... and I cured are rare type of disease.... and you would think they would call me John the healer... but NO.... NO... they don't call me these things... but.... suck one cock....
But, see, you were the *best* at it.

Matt Cavanaugh
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Re: You is all a bunch of poofs!

#7504

Post by Matt Cavanaugh » Sat Sep 28, 2019 10:22 am

Hunt wrote: Don't forge your assertion that Laquan McD "lunged" at cops a moment before getting shot. Unless you consider his spinning around from bullet impact "lunging", an unusual interpretation.
I see McDonald perform what may have been considered a lunge, before lurching in the other direction an instant before being shot. NB: McDonald had been lunging at people and slashing tires for c. 20 minutes prior to the video snippet you reference. He was high on PCP, erratic, and dangerous.

Since you've assumedly never fired a gun, much less in a stressful, safety-endangering situation, you have no ability to judge whether a given LEO in a given situation should've hesitated further. LEO training correctly identifies 3/4 second as the maximum time to respond to a threat.

And still, you fail to offer an alternative approach to detaining McDonald.

Also don't forget "Frame 394", produced by Fat Cracka and Cruella de Vil, an absurd attempt to justify gunning down a fleeing man. (You seemed to endorse it.)
Don't be such a complete tool! I've repeatedly and explicitly stated that the Walter Scott shooting was unjustified.

Of course, there are many, many other instances of questionable police use of force, some recorded, some not. While this constitutes anecdotal evidence, I note in passing that the plural of anecdote is data (in a loose sense; let's not get pedantic).
You've cherry-picked your data points. The question, What percentage of police uses of force are unjustified'? is one that you not only can't answer, but deem irrelevant.

Further, your feigned concern about 'questionable' instances is a canard, as you'd made it clear you'd prefer their be zero police uses of deadly force. You even considered it excessive to continue firing at an armed criminal who posed an imminent threat to civilians.

Plus there are no complete statistics! No government agency, from the FBI on down, has rigorously collected data on police use of force!
A specious complaint, as no complete statistics exist for any public policy matter. Adequate data exist, but even did they not, that's not a free pass for you to assume whatever you wish to be true.

I already cited Hirschfield's article,and you didn't like its provenance.
It's reasonable to suspect the bias of an advocate of restorative justice, an anti-science concept that inevitably leads the advocate to the conclusion that no uses of force are justified.

But I also offered substantive critique of the article itself, namely that it was comprised primarily of argument by assertion, omitted or grossly distorted key facts, and that Hirschfield undermined his own assertion that police use of force is racially-driven.

Hirschfield wrote:But I still think we have much to learn from European models of policing. Their ability to respond to volatile and violent situations without killing people or dying is laudable, and it does raise questions about whether there are alternatives to our system, which unnecessarily exacts thousands of lives and billions of dollars.
Answer begging the question: Hirschfield can't both pretend to invite inquiry into whether alternatives exist and simultaneously declare the current protocol "unnecessary". He also fails to determine & compare the rates of "volatile and violent situations" faced by European LEO vs. their US counterparts.


Tl;DR: your arguments remain unpersuasive, as you refuse to quantify the alleged problem, fail to provide concrete alternative protocols, relying instead on emotion as the sole support for your conclusions. That, and you continue to strawman your interlocutors' arguments.

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Re: You is all a bunch of poofs!

#7505

Post by jugheadnaut » Sat Sep 28, 2019 10:30 am

Hunt wrote: Also don't forget "Frame 394", produced by Fat Cracka and Cruella de Vil, an absurd attempt to justify gunning down a fleeing man. (You seemed to endorse it.)
That's about as dishonest an interpretation as I can imagine, and I have to assume you didn't watch the doc and just assumed what its content was. It simply proved that, contrary to conventional wisdom, Slager didn't make up the part of the taser being grabbed from him. It offered no opinion on whether the subsequent shooting was justified or not, because that wasn't a focus of the documentary, but it did contain unusually coherent commentary from a BLM activist on the matter. It closed on a note that, as a Scandinavian justice fan you would approve of, which is the whole awful affair wouldn't have happened if not for appalling laws that criminalize non-payment of child support (with jail time) even when there is simply no money available to pay, a disgusting modern version of debtors prison.

I couldn't have been clearer in my post that I thought this was a bad shoot anyway, and Slager's actions certainly merited significant jail time. He's just not guilty of murder. That's what Matt "endorsed", not that gunning down a fleeing man was justified.

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Re: You is all a bunch of poofs!

#7506

Post by DW Adams » Sat Sep 28, 2019 11:34 am

Matt Cavanaugh wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 6:51 pm
DW Adams wrote:
Matt Cavanaugh wrote: like the 1911 pistol replica (top, real below) that Tamir Rice drew and aimed at the cop:


Jesus dude, do you get your news from Fox?
From the surveillance camera footage. From where did you get your information on Tamir Rice?
A few places. Here is one:

https://www.gq.com/story/tamir-rice-story

Hunt
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Re: You is all a bunch of poofs!

#7507

Post by Hunt » Sat Sep 28, 2019 1:41 pm

jugheadnaut wrote: I couldn't have been clearer in my post that I thought this was a bad shoot anyway, and Slager's actions certainly merited significant jail time. He's just not guilty of murder. That's what Matt "endorsed", not that gunning down a fleeing man was justified.
He's not guilty of murder according to you (and Matt, presumably) because of the laxer standard of fear for personal or bystander safety, which leads to more police shooting. Need I remind you that this is a point of contention in this argument? Talk about question begging. If it weren't for the "feared for my life" standard, there would be no question about this. How am I supposed to have an honest discussion with guys who take the status quo (you're making me sound like PZ again) as unquestionable holy writ?

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Re: You is all a bunch of poofs!

#7508

Post by Phil_Giordana_FCD » Sat Sep 28, 2019 2:32 pm

Here in France, LOE have to stop any vehicle chase if it could endanger the lives of bystanders, the perps, or the cops. It's not working too bad.

Different frames of mind, I guess.

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Re: You is all a bunch of poofs!

#7509

Post by jugheadnaut » Sat Sep 28, 2019 4:26 pm

Hunt wrote:
jugheadnaut wrote: I couldn't have been clearer in my post that I thought this was a bad shoot anyway, and Slager's actions certainly merited significant jail time. He's just not guilty of murder. That's what Matt "endorsed", not that gunning down a fleeing man was justified.

He's not guilty of murder according to you (and Matt, presumably) because of the laxer standard of fear for personal or bystander safety, which leads to more police shooting. Need I remind you that this is a point of contention in this argument? Talk about question begging. If it weren't for the "feared for my life" standard, there would be no question about this. How am I supposed to have an honest discussion with guys who take the status quo (you're making me sound like PZ again) as unquestionable holy writ?
Judging whether someone received a fair verdict and appropriate sentence under the law by what the law and surrounding case law actually states is not begging the question, nor dogmatic adherence to some status quo. At least in what I've discussed of this case, there is no 'laxer' or double standard for police involved. The "feared for my life" standard is extremely important and is available to anyone, not a special carve-out for police, and is generally the line between murder and non-criminal justifiable homicide. This case is more complicated because of the multi-second delay between the initial, justified decision to apply lethal force and the actual execution of that decision, during which time the victim fled, and which we all agree makes him criminally responsible. You stated that the documentary, myself (by implication) and Matt were arguing that the shooting was justified, which is just breathtakingly dishonest.

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Re: You is all a bunch of poofs!

#7510

Post by ConcentratedH2O, OM » Sat Sep 28, 2019 5:54 pm

Ladies and genetlemen and others of the Pit,

It's a strange world.

'She'.

https://i.imgur.com/b3kZbL4.png

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Re: You is all a bunch of poofs!

#7511

Post by mordacious1 » Sat Sep 28, 2019 8:27 pm

Okay, I think I’ve got the solution to America’s violent crime problem and police shooting innocent minorities. Firstly, whenever there’s a police shooting, the poor victim’s family gets millions in payouts, with trial costs, this is millions of dollars. Millions! Add this to the cost of providing trained officers and it becomes a significant amount.

Since foreign police are better trained and can diffuse a situation before it gets violent and don’t have to shoot anyone, it’s obvious what we should do. Pick a city, starting with Chicago, use the above mentioned savings and hire several hundred Canadian, British or French police and let them clean up one city at a time. Pay them enough and they will come.

Just think, no citizens injured or killed, violent crime goes down to zero and American cops can wash cars or something. Once Chicago is cleaned up, they can move on to Detroit. We’ve been doing it all wrong! We should start a pilot program immediately.

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Re: You is all a bunch of poofs!

#7512

Post by AndrewV69 » Sat Sep 28, 2019 10:53 pm

In other news:


Hunt
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Re: You is all a bunch of poofs!

#7513

Post by Hunt » Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:49 am

jugheadnaut wrote:
Hunt wrote:
jugheadnaut wrote: I couldn't have been clearer in my post that I thought this was a bad shoot anyway, and Slager's actions certainly merited significant jail time. He's just not guilty of murder. That's what Matt "endorsed", not that gunning down a fleeing man was justified.

He's not guilty of murder according to you (and Matt, presumably) because of the laxer standard of fear for personal or bystander safety, which leads to more police shooting. Need I remind you that this is a point of contention in this argument? Talk about question begging. If it weren't for the "feared for my life" standard, there would be no question about this. How am I supposed to have an honest discussion with guys who take the status quo (you're making me sound like PZ again) as unquestionable holy writ?
Judging whether someone received a fair verdict and appropriate sentence under the law by what the law and surrounding case law actually states is not begging the question, nor dogmatic adherence to some status quo. At least in what I've discussed of this case, there is no 'laxer' or double standard for police involved. The "feared for my life" standard is extremely important and is available to anyone, not a special carve-out for police, and is generally the line between murder and non-criminal justifiable homicide. This case is more complicated because of the multi-second delay between the initial, justified decision to apply lethal force and the actual execution of that decision, during which time the victim fled, and which we all agree makes him criminally responsible. You stated that the documentary, myself (by implication) and Matt were arguing that the shooting was justified, which is just breathtakingly dishonest.
I was taking this in the larger context of the argument that Matt and I are embroiled in. To "justify" can also mean partial justification, to mitigate, to lessen. I've understood exactly what you meant from the start, it's just that I'm not interested in discussing the letter of the law. The letter of the law is my bone of contention. Sorry if I stepped on some toes in the process. I shouldn't have written "an absurd attempt to justify" since that's not what I meant in absolute terms.

Yes, I did watch the documentary, and I probably won't go through it again. I was wrong, Cracka and Cruella probably didn't have a hand in producing it; it was probably done in by the what? obsessive kid. I have no doubt that C&C are trying to "mitigate" the crime; the kid seems much more confused. The BLM activist seemed stoned. (To be fair and honest, Cracka is probably a lovely progressive man who helps out at black soup kitchens and Cruella probably doesn't eat puppies.)

The Walter Scott video is emblematic to everything in this discussion, which is why I've repeatedly brought it up. Attempts to lessen the crime are also germane to this discussion. If one applies the "absolute necessity" standard, one sees murder, pure and simple; if one applies the "feared for life" standard, one sees and opportunity to mitigate the crime and hang juries.

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Re: You is all a bunch of poofs!

#7514

Post by Hunt » Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:53 am

mordacious1 wrote: Since foreign police are better trained and can diffuse a situation before it gets violent and don’t have to shoot anyone, it’s obvious what we should do. Pick a city, starting with Chicago, use the above mentioned savings and hire several hundred Canadian, British or French police and let them clean up one city at a time. Pay them enough and they will come.
A better solution would be to feed American cops more and more donuts until they become house sized. Soon the adipose tissue will make them impervious to bullets and they will no longer need to carry guns.

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Re: You is all a bunch of poofs!

#7515

Post by Hunt » Sun Sep 29, 2019 2:43 am

Matt Cavanaugh wrote: You've cherry-picked your data points. The question, What percentage of police uses of force are unjustified'? is one that you not only can't answer, but deem irrelevant.
Now who's being obscurantist? If I can't prove anything, neither can you. The number of police killings are function of law, policy, doctrine, etc. A single court case:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennessee_v._Garner
regarding use of deadly force on fleeing felons can affect the numbers, a drop by 17% of instances of deadly force in this case. If you want to language lawyer me that "What percentage of police uses of force are unjustified'? is actually a malformed question rather than irrelevant, that's fine by me; I don't mind refining how the argument is framed. There is every reason to believe that if law and doctrine for use of force were further altered, the numbers would drop even more. What you and I are debating is where the dials are set. You think everything is copacetic as is, and I don't. For evidence, I adduce the fact that LEOs in other countries are far less lethal.

This gets back to what I was saying earlier. Police are public servants. We decide how they operate. To simply abdicate control is expression of fear and frankly, weakness. This is not a popular belief. Most sheeple keep their heads down, think they have no say in how they are served by the police, lick boots and suck cop dick. No, this is not inflammatory hyperbole. It's the way the vast majority of deferential people behave toward cops.

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Re: You is all a bunch of poofs!

#7516

Post by Hunt » Sun Sep 29, 2019 3:00 am

Matt Cavanaugh wrote: It's reasonable to suspect the bias of an advocate of restorative justice, an anti-science concept that inevitably leads the advocate to the conclusion that no uses of force are justified.

But I also offered substantive critique of the article itself, namely that it was comprised primarily of argument by assertion, omitted or grossly distorted key facts, and that Hirschfield undermined his own assertion that police use of force is racially-driven.
It's also the genetic fallacy; because I know you're a fan of informal logic.

As I indicated above, you're holding others to a standard you don't meet either. The question can't be answered (obscurantist fatalism), yet here's my firmly held belief. How about you start showing that American police use of deadly force is justified?

Hirschfield thinks racism and deadly force are correlated but that's not the whole story. Racism is obviously not a factor in much of rural America, where there is still significant use of deadly force. Are you saying you don't think racism is a factor in deadly force in many urban black neighborhoods? Really. This may bring this discussion to a whole new level.

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Re: You is all a bunch of poofs!

#7517

Post by Hunt » Sun Sep 29, 2019 3:20 am

Matt Cavanaugh wrote: Answer begging the question: Hirschfield can't both pretend to invite inquiry into whether alternatives exist and simultaneously declare the current protocol "unnecessary". He also fails to determine & compare the rates of "volatile and violent situations" faced by European LEO vs. their US counterparts.
You're language lawyering again, and being a logic geek. Barring direct comparison to other countries, it's entirely reasonable to draw approximate lines between them, particularly when you're willing to make relative adjustments, and he is. You've admitted that policy decisions are made from inexact information. Cops in other countries are less lethal, even while compensating for confounding factors. Are guns less lethal in Europe than America, are knives?

Hirschfield draws some tentative but extremely reasonable conclusions: US cops are more violent because they're more fearful (gun prevalence), because they have wider ambit to use force (the law and policy), because criminals are more determined to evade justice (draconian criminal justice system), because cops lack deescalation training or thorough training in general, because police agencies have been allowed to become more and more militarized. All of this is "necessary" only if you think nothing can be done about gun prevalence, no changes can be made to the law, etc.

Not sure why your knickers are in such a bunch.

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Re: You is all a bunch of poofs!

#7518

Post by Service Dog » Sun Sep 29, 2019 3:27 am

AndrewV69 wrote: In other news:

How dare you!

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Re: You is all a bunch of poofs!

#7519

Post by Service Dog » Sun Sep 29, 2019 6:10 am

KiwiInOz wrote:
Service Dog wrote: like if you enjoy fucking a corpse just-once you'd be a necrophile, even if it's a one-time thing.
So, you're saying it was just a one time thing.
I like my women like my coffee, iced.

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Re: You is all a bunch of poofs!

#7520

Post by John D » Sun Sep 29, 2019 7:10 am

Well.... I have lost some respect for Ken Burns....

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Re: You is all a bunch of poofs!

#7521

Post by AndrewV69 » Sun Sep 29, 2019 8:32 am

John D wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 7:10 am
Well.... I have lost some respect for Ken Burns....
.ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwRQztpF6qU
Welcome to my world?

Perhaps you are not quite there yet. My position is to never believe any story in the media unless I can verify it myself.

Good luck with that though.

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Re: You is all a bunch of poofs!

#7522

Post by Lsuoma » Sun Sep 29, 2019 10:21 am

Service Dog wrote:
KiwiInOz wrote:
Service Dog wrote: like if you enjoy fucking a corpse just-once you'd be a necrophile, even if it's a one-time thing.
So, you're saying it was just a one time thing.
I like my women like my coffee, iced roasted, ground up, and boiled.
FTFY.

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Re: You is all a bunch of poofs!

#7523

Post by Service Dog » Sun Sep 29, 2019 10:39 am

John D wrote: Well.... I have lost some respect for Ken Burns....
That link is fishy. Why is the focus on Ken Burns, and his 2012 documentary? The Central Park Five weren't freed by Burns or his documentary, but by the investigation by NYC DA, Robert Morgenthau-- in 2002. I don't think much of Ken Burns-- especially since hearing a podcast about how his documentaries are created by a well-funded office full of underlings researching vast amounts of source material & stitching that together into compelling narratives. It seems to me. that places Burn's role too far downstream from uncovering the original story from original sources. But that just shows it's even-stupider to seek truth in this case... by investigating Ken Burns documentaries themselves. That's starting even-further downstream from the truth.

It's not a crazy conspiracy theory that the police coerced confessions from the boys by lying to each of them-- falsely telling each boy that all the other boys had identified him-- and each boy's only hope of a lighter punishment was to identify all-the-other boys. That's established, not in dispute.

I don't know what wrongdoing those boys actually did that night. But the theory that they were part of an -organized- gang attack by 30 perps, all who knew that rapes and serious assaults were on the night's menu-- is a stretch. I find it more plausible that the shared-culpability is on a par with Halloween troublemakers-- ones who threw eggs at houses or people or knocked-over mailboxes... tho guilty of crimes... aren't necessarily cognizant that someone in the loose 'group' was going to knock-somebody-out & commit rape.

I only see this video as useful to check the credibility of Larry Elder and the Detective he quotes. How do their claims stand up?... Teenage boys with their own semen and pubic hair on their own clothes is proof-of... what? Teenage boys running around central park woods in the dark-- with blood & cuts on their bodies-- proof of what? I've been twice deprived water and bathroom by the nypd, so I know it's absurd for the detective to scoff at that claim as absurd. He doth protest too much.

Two years after the Central Park Jogger was raped, I was in nypd uniform, patrolling Harlem, with a bunch of young black and latinos, as auxilliaries. One of us brought a camcorder on patrol, shooting 'home movies'... on a tape which also included footage of him (not on duty, i think) paying a crackhead to suck his dick in a public playground. So the rest of us were aware this guy was capable of bad behavior. That's more evidence against me as knowing-participant in his subsequent bad behavior-- than there is against the Central Park Five knowing about the guy who admitted to raping the Jogger in 2002. That same auxiliary later stole my handcuffs from my locker in the police station and used them to rob a drug dealer in the projects. According to the Central Park Five detective's methodology, I'm thus proven to be involved in the robbery. That event led to the corrupt auxiliary being investigated... and caught offering to kill someone for money. Again-- surely I was party to that, and so-was every-other auxiliary & fulltime-cop supervisor in the precinct. Right? Yeeaaaaahhhhh no. Except maybe-so. Police are publically-funded institution with a sworn duty-- the standard is higher on cops than random teenagers running around a park after dark.

I do genuinely appreciate you posting this video, tho. It causes me to reconsider my assumptions about guilt-by-association. I don't have a clear answer yet. But every night there's the disorganized flow of troublemaking assholes gathering around the cigarette store downstairs. There's obnoxious noise, literal pissing on my doorstep, street fights... how guilty is any random loiterer down-there, for the whole-thing? I tend to assume it's no-one's fault for merely existing in a shitty local environment/ not actively steering-clear of the ambient trouble. But maybe I'm wrong & there's more duty to avoid the whole mess-- than I tend to assume there is.

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Re: You is all a bunch of poofs!

#7524

Post by Matt Cavanaugh » Sun Sep 29, 2019 10:39 am

DW Adams wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 11:34 am
Matt Cavanaugh wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 6:51 pm
DW Adams wrote:
Matt Cavanaugh wrote: like the 1911 pistol replica (top, real below) that Tamir Rice drew and aimed at the cop:


Jesus dude, do you get your news from Fox?
From the surveillance camera footage. From where did you get your information on Tamir Rice?
A few places. Here is one:

https://www.gq.com/story/tamir-rice-story
Well, that editorial certainly brings out the Dickensian aspect of the story.
Metrosexuals Quarterly wrote:How does a 12-year-old boy with a toy gun on a playground get shot to death on-camera by the police without anyone getting charged?
A 5'10", 185 lb. individual who'd been described by Dispatch as an adult male.

An highly realistic Airsoft replica 1911 pistol, from which the bright orange muzzle had been illegally removed, and which Dispatch had described as real.

Which said individual was aiming at passersby, and pulled from his waistband just as the cops drove up.


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Re: You is all a bunch of poofs!

#7525

Post by Matt Cavanaugh » Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:25 am

jugheadnaut wrote: I couldn't have been clearer in my post that I thought this was a bad shoot anyway, and Slager's actions certainly merited significant jail time. He's just not guilty of murder. That's what Matt "endorsed", not that gunning down a fleeing man was justified.
FTR, I find the tasing justified in lieu of the attempt to resist arrest, and lethal force would have been justified had the struggle to steal the taser continued. I believe the cop was genuinely confused when he fired, but that still amounted to negligent homicide.

Hunt wrote: He's not guilty of murder according to you (and Matt, presumably) because of the laxer standard of fear for personal or bystander safety, which leads to more police shooting.... If it weren't for the "feared for my life" standard, there would be no question about this. How am I supposed to have an honest discussion with guys who take the status quo ... as unquestionable holy writ?
It's not just 'status quo', it is the law, to wit:
jugheadnaut wrote: ... there is no 'laxer' or double standard for police involved. The "feared for my life" standard is extremely important and is available to anyone, not a special carve-out for police, and is generally the line between murder and non-criminal justifiable homicide.
Hunt wrote: ... I'm not interested in discussing the letter of the law. The letter of the law is my bone of contention....
The Letter of the Law (California Department of Justice) wrote:Permissible Use of Lethal Force in Defense of Life and Body
The killing of one person by another may be justifiable when necessary to resist the attempt to commit a forcible and life-threatening crime, provided that a reasonable person in the same or similar situation would believe that (a) the person killed intended to commit a forcible and life-threatening crime; (b) there was imminent danger of such crime being accomplished; and (c) the person acted under the belief that such force was necessary to save himself or herself or another from death or a forcible and life- threatening crime. Murder, mayhem, rape and robbery are examples of forcible and life- threatening crimes.
Hunt, do you advocate revoking this right to self-defense from civilians, or just from cops? Or just from white cops when facing black perps?

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Re: You is all a bunch of poofs!

#7526

Post by Matt Cavanaugh » Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:26 am

In light of, not in lieu.

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Re: You is all a bunch of poofs!

#7527

Post by Matt Cavanaugh » Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:51 am

Hunt wrote:
Matt Cavanaugh wrote: It's reasonable to suspect the bias of an advocate of restorative justice, an anti-science concept that inevitably leads the advocate to the conclusion that no uses of force are justified.

But I also offered substantive critique of the article itself, namely that it was comprised primarily of argument by assertion, omitted or grossly distorted key facts, and that Hirschfield undermined his own assertion that police use of force is racially-driven.
It's also the genetic fallacy; because I know you're a fan of informal logic.
My statement you quote above suffices as response to the charge of committing a genetic fallacy.

Would it be a genetic fallacy to discount out-of-hand an astrologer's explanation for a spate of bad luck?


As I indicated above, you're holding others to a standard you don't meet either. The question can't be answered (obscurantist fatalism), yet here's my firmly held belief. How about you start showing that American police use of deadly force is justified?
I wasn't the one who began all this with the assertion that all or nearly all police use of force is excessive. The onus is on you.

Hirschfield thinks racism and deadly force are correlated but that's not the whole story. Racism is obviously not a factor in much of rural America, where there is still significant use of deadly force.
Thinks, but cannot establish quantitatively. He merely presumes that correlation = causation, switching the correlation in question (racism in urban areas, gun prevalence in rural) as convenient to his a priori assumptions. And, no Hirschfield does not factor in numerous possible confounding factors.

Are you saying you don't think racism is a factor in deadly force in many urban black neighborhoods? Really. This may bring this discussion to a whole new level.
Define 'many'.

I'm sure that racism is a factor in >0 decisions to use deadly force. But interestingly, studies have found that cops are actually less likely to use force against black perps than white or other races.

Overall, the rate of deadly force used against blacks correlates closely to rate of violent crime commission by blacks.

That blacks are disproportionately targeted by police use of force, and due to the racism of the police, is a patently false narrative.

cf.
https://www.city-journal.org/police-sho ... acial-bias

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Re: You is all a bunch of poofs!

#7528

Post by AndrewV69 » Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:21 pm

:o :o :o



:lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: You is all a bunch of poofs!

#7529

Post by fuzzy » Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:37 pm

Your Fuzziness is still standing some 18 months after charges
first landed zyr in the clink for over 48hrs.
It will be an entertaining story when zyr can finally tell it.
All praise to the fascist tit.

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Re: You is all a bunch of poofs!

#7530

Post by Service Dog » Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:46 pm

Hi!

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Re: You is all a bunch of poofs!

#7531

Post by fuzzy » Sun Sep 29, 2019 5:06 pm

Eleven misdemeanors and a felony outstanding. I'd say that's pretty outstanding. Five of the misdemeanors I like to call 'process crimes' because the crime would not have existed had the initial brouha never happened. The felony was added eight months after the arrest, after I turned down theit plea deal on six misdemeanors. Take THAT, Service Dog.

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Re: You is all a bunch of poofs!

#7532

Post by fuzzy » Sun Sep 29, 2019 5:25 pm

The baddies think their facebook sockpuppet hasn't yet been found out. I'd talk more about it, but I'd have to spend half my time explaining the US legal system to all these foreigners.

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Re: You is all a bunch of poofs!

#7533

Post by Bhurzum » Mon Sep 30, 2019 1:34 am

Experience/skill Vs youth...place your bets!


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Re: You is all a bunch of poofs!

#7534

Post by Hunt » Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:01 am

Matt Cavanaugh wrote: That blacks are disproportionately targeted by police use of force, and due to the racism of the police, is a patently false narrative.
"Patently" might be a little strong. A couple of the studies Heather MacD cites are empirical "video game" violence simulator studies. They demonstrate implicit race bias (PZ's favorite type), though ultimately unbiased responses. In other words, cops are primed for more violent brown and black people, but higher cognitive functions (training) ultimately override it.

Different sub-types of police use of force demonstrate bias, for example non-fatal black and Hispanic interactions:
PNAS wrote:Black or anti-Hispanic disparities in fatal shootings, when focusing on different sub-types of shootings (e.g., unarmed shootings or “suicide by cop”), data are too uncertain to draw firm conclusions.
Fryer's paper opens with this:
Fryer wrote:This paper explores racial differences in police use of force. On non-lethal uses of force,
blacks and Hispanics are more than fifty percent more likely to experience some form of force
in interactions with police. Adding controls that account for important context and civilian
behavior reduces, but cannot fully explain, these disparities.
Indeed, here's a PLOS paper that concludes that unarmed blacks are 3.5 times more likely to be killed than unarmed whites, though there is wide geographic disparity. The paper shows that overall crime rate is not a factor.
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/artic ... ne.0141854

MacD favors recent studies that sit atop a mountain of countervailing research, but what she outlines may well be true today. I don't doubt that the "Reverse Racism Effect" is real in some circumstances. Cops have stated that they're paranoid to resort to violent tactics, sometimes to ridiculous and humiliating extents. But older studies are little more dire.

From the Correll study MacD cites:
Correll wrote:Investigators have consistently found evidence that police
use greater force, including lethal force, with minority suspects
than with White suspects (e.g., Inn, Wheeler, & Sparling, 1977;
Smith, 2004; see Geller, 1982, for a review). Data from the
Department of Justice (2001), itself, indicate that Black suspects
are approximately five times more likely than White suspects, per
capita, to die at the hands of a police officer.
You're going to say that it's because blacks are more violent; according to MacD the Justice Dept. also reports that cops are five times as likely to be killed by blacks as whites, which exactly mirrors the figure above. Alright, I'm not saying you and she don't have good points.

I just don't think we can say this narrative is "patently" untrue. The days of dogs and fire hoses and not that far distant in our past.

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Re: You is all a bunch of poofs!

#7535

Post by InfraRedBucket » Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:32 am

MWSnap011 2019-09-30, 13_31_00.jpg
(19.95 KiB) Downloaded 215 times

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Re: You is all a bunch of poofs!

#7536

Post by ConcentratedH2O, OM » Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:40 am

Rachel McKinnon is a man who dresses up as a woman and competes in women's cycling. Some people call him a cheat for doing that.

He has a PhD in some bullshit made up specialoty. Gender Studies or Women's Studies, I believe.

He calls himself trans, and says that lesbians who refuse to sleep with him are transphobic.

https://i.imgur.com/34P8lmU.png

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Re: You is all a bunch of poofs!

#7537

Post by Hunt » Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:48 am

Matt Cavanaugh wrote: Thinks, but cannot establish quantitatively. He merely presumes that correlation = causation, switching the correlation in question (racism in urban areas, gun prevalence in rural) as convenient to his a priori assumptions. And, no Hirschfield does not factor in numerous possible confounding factors.
Did you rent or buy the pdf? Neither did I.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/ful ... socf.12200

So I will make the attempt myself. America is exceptional in crime, but not so much that useful comparisons can't be made. The US is commensurate in many types of euro crime, except that it has very excessive violent crime rate. Homicide is sky high; basically Americans shoot each other like clay pigeons. So is rape and robbery. Still, the differences are not so outlandish as to make the comparisons useless. Basically, American cop violence is itself so outlandish that it more than makes up for it (MVT means "motor vehicle theft"--I think):



This is from:

https://books.google.com/books?id=C3Gi1 ... ld&f=false

Let's recap a little. This is one of your foundational assumptions.
Matt Cavanaugh wrote: But the USA is not anything like Denmark or Finland. Bottom line, the reasons cops kill more perps in the US is because in the US we have more perps to kill.
This is true, I'm not denying it. However we have to ask whether it is enough to justify double digit rate increase in cop lethality.

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Re: You is all a bunch of poofs!

#7538

Post by Hunt » Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:59 am

Matt Cavanaugh wrote: Hunt, do you advocate revoking this right to self-defense from civilians, or just from cops? Or just from white cops when facing black perps?
You're putting words in my mouth. The "laxer standard" is in comparison to the "absolute necessity" of euro cops, not armed citizens. If anything I expect cops to be less lethal than civilians when protecting themselves, since they're the ones (supposedly) trained to first use deescalation, non-lethal force, and so on, in progression. Armed civilians may well skip all that and go right to pulling the trigger. In fact, I think they do; that's (partly) why American homicide rates are off the charts. Of course, this only characterizes a subset of homicides, but homicides are homicides, justified or not.

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Re: You is all a bunch of poofs!

#7539

Post by Matt Cavanaugh » Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:49 am

Hunt wrote: Indeed, here's a PLOS paper that concludes that unarmed blacks are 3.5 times more likely to be killed than unarmed whites, though there is wide geographic disparity. The paper shows that overall crime rate is not a factor.
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/artic ... ne.0141854
My math skills aren't so good, so maybe you could explain why a Bayesian analysis (conducted by an anthropologist whose academic focus seems to be Latin American street art) is appropriate in this instance. And could you also point out where in that paper the claim, that crime commission rate is not a factor, is substantiated. Cuz, given that blacks commit crimes as 3x the rate of whites, there is a close correlation.

Unless you or Ross are claiming that a significant portion of these unarmed blacks were not in the midst of committing a crime when killed. But I didn't see any evidence for that in Ross' paper, either.

I just don't think we can say this narrative is "patently" untrue. The days of dogs and fire hoses and not that far distant in our past.
I consider 60+ years 'distant.' Sorry you were born too late to confess to your White Guilt during the Civil Rights movement, but that's no excuse to fabricate a non-existent racism problem today.

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Re: You is all a bunch of poofs!

#7540

Post by Matt Cavanaugh » Mon Sep 30, 2019 10:26 am

Hunt wrote: America is exceptional in crime, but not so much that useful comparisons can't be made. The US is commensurate in many types of euro crime, except that it has very excessive violent crime rate. [....]



[....]

Let's recap a little. This is one of your foundational assumptions.
Matt Cavanaugh wrote: But the USA is not anything like Denmark or Finland. Bottom line, the reasons cops kill more perps in the US is because in the US we have more perps to kill.
This is true, I'm not denying it. However we have to ask whether it is enough to justify double digit rate increase in cop lethality.
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Your chart shows the US has 2-3x the number of violent criminals than European countries. The number of criminals in the US armed with guns is also much, much higher. Overall, violent crime in the US has been steadily declining for decades, yet the proportion committed by gangs and drug cartels -- both extremely violent & dangerous groups -- has risen sharply. We're also experiencing a huge increase in crimes committed by perps under the influence of drugs, who are typically violence-prone and, most importantly, erratic.

It really shouldn't be that hard for a motivated person or group to sift through the 500-odd OIS p/a in the US, review the details of each incident, make an assessment -- however biased or not -- as to whether lethal force was appropriate, and perform simple division to arrive at a rate. (No Bayesian or regression analysis required.) Until that is done, your assertions remain unsubstantiated and your proposed solution, that LEO willingly place their lives in greater peril, unsupportable.

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Re: You is all a bunch of poofs!

#7541

Post by fafnir » Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:58 am

Matt Cavanaugh wrote: I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Your chart shows the US has 2-3x the number of violent criminals than European countries. The number of criminals in the US armed with guns is also much, much higher. Overall, violent crime in the US has been steadily declining for decades, yet the proportion committed by gangs and drug cartels -- both extremely violent & dangerous groups -- has risen sharply. We're also experiencing a huge increase in crimes committed by perps under the influence of drugs, who are typically violence-prone and, most importantly, erratic.

It really shouldn't be that hard for a motivated person or group to sift through the 500-odd OIS p/a in the US, review the details of each incident, make an assessment -- however biased or not -- as to whether lethal force was appropriate, and perform simple division to arrive at a rate. (No Bayesian or regression analysis required.) Until that is done, your assertions remain unsubstantiated and your proposed solution, that LEO willingly place their lives in greater peril, unsupportable.
As a point of comparison, in the UK there is the following list of police officers killed in the line of duty:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_B ... ne_of_duty
In many years, the number is zero. From Jan 1st 2000 to 31st Dec 2018 I make it 28 deaths, or an average of just under 1.5 per year. I count 6 shot over that period, so an average of about 1 every 3 years.

I'm not going to add it up for the US
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_l ... tates#2018
but you have 47 deaths in the US in 2018, 29 of them were shot.

So, if 2018 is anything to go by, there are 31x more deaths in the line of duty and about 90x more police shot in the US compared to the UK based on a 5x greater population and about 6x as many police.

Presumably if you looked at the most dangerous US cities vs the most dangerous UK cities, the difference would be even greater.

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Re: You is all a bunch of poofs!

#7542

Post by fafnir » Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:58 am

Matt Cavanaugh wrote: I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Your chart shows the US has 2-3x the number of violent criminals than European countries. The number of criminals in the US armed with guns is also much, much higher. Overall, violent crime in the US has been steadily declining for decades, yet the proportion committed by gangs and drug cartels -- both extremely violent & dangerous groups -- has risen sharply. We're also experiencing a huge increase in crimes committed by perps under the influence of drugs, who are typically violence-prone and, most importantly, erratic.

It really shouldn't be that hard for a motivated person or group to sift through the 500-odd OIS p/a in the US, review the details of each incident, make an assessment -- however biased or not -- as to whether lethal force was appropriate, and perform simple division to arrive at a rate. (No Bayesian or regression analysis required.) Until that is done, your assertions remain unsubstantiated and your proposed solution, that LEO willingly place their lives in greater peril, unsupportable.
As a point of comparison, in the UK there is the following list of police officers killed in the line of duty:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_B ... ne_of_duty
In many years, the number is zero. From Jan 1st 2000 to 31st Dec 2018 I make it 28 deaths, or an average of just under 1.5 per year. I count 6 shot over that period, so an average of about 1 every 3 years.

I'm not going to add it up for the US
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_l ... tates#2018
but you have 47 deaths in the US in 2018, 29 of them were shot.

So, if 2018 is anything to go by, there are 31x more deaths in the line of duty and about 90x more police shot in the US compared to the UK based on a 5x greater population and about 6x as many police.

Presumably if you looked at the most dangerous US cities vs the most dangerous UK cities, the difference would be even greater.

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Re: You is all a bunch of poofs!

#7543

Post by Dan » Mon Sep 30, 2019 2:54 pm


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Re: You is all a bunch of poofs!

#7544

Post by Service Dog » Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:24 pm

This was posted to youtube 11 years ago. This kid was ahead of the curve...


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Re: You is all a bunch of poofs!

#7545

Post by Matt Cavanaugh » Mon Sep 30, 2019 5:11 pm

fafnir wrote:
Matt Cavanaugh wrote: I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Your chart shows the US has 2-3x the number of violent criminals than European countries. The number of criminals in the US armed with guns is also much, much higher. Overall, violent crime in the US has been steadily declining for decades, yet the proportion committed by gangs and drug cartels -- both extremely violent & dangerous groups -- has risen sharply. We're also experiencing a huge increase in crimes committed by perps under the influence of drugs, who are typically violence-prone and, most importantly, erratic.

It really shouldn't be that hard for a motivated person or group to sift through the 500-odd OIS p/a in the US, review the details of each incident, make an assessment -- however biased or not -- as to whether lethal force was appropriate, and perform simple division to arrive at a rate. (No Bayesian or regression analysis required.) Until that is done, your assertions remain unsubstantiated and your proposed solution, that LEO willingly place their lives in greater peril, unsupportable.
As a point of comparison, in the UK there is the following list of police officers killed in the line of duty:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_B ... ne_of_duty
In many years, the number is zero. From Jan 1st 2000 to 31st Dec 2018 I make it 28 deaths, or an average of just under 1.5 per year. I count 6 shot over that period, so an average of about 1 every 3 years.

I'm not going to add it up for the US
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_l ... tates#2018
but you have 47 deaths in the US in 2018, 29 of them were shot.

So, if 2018 is anything to go by, there are 31x more deaths in the line of duty and about 90x more police shot in the US compared to the UK based on a 5x greater population and about 6x as many police.

Presumably if you looked at the most dangerous US cities vs the most dangerous UK cities, the difference would be even greater.
We've already established that things in the US and UK are not the same. Hunt says it's cuz cops in the US are afforded the same 'reasonable fear' standard for self-defense as civilians, I say it's cuz perps in the US are more dangerous.

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Re: You is all a bunch of poofs!

#7546

Post by Service Dog » Mon Sep 30, 2019 5:29 pm

EconTalk interviews a black-sheep among theoretical physicists.
At first she explains her doubts about how the discipline of physics has gone askew.
Then it becomes clear that similar skepticism could be applied to economics, climate science, etc.
of note-- are the different thresholds each discipline uses to weed-out freak-anomalies in data.
In economics-- there has to be less than a 5% chance the dataset is a non-representative low-probability oddball occurance.
She describes an anomaly in physics which either proved her oppponents were right-- or else it was a 3-in-10,000 oddity.
It turned out to be a long-odds oddity! And the actual standard demanded by the physics discipline is one-in-3.5million chance oddity!
There's other-stuff she notes, which can compound errors in consensus... such as it-being easier to publish in-agreement with previous publications/ rather than in understudied areas, where no consensus is yet clear.

https://www.econtalk.org/sabine-hossenf ... t-in-math/

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Re: You is all a bunch of poofs!

#7547

Post by KiwiInOz » Mon Sep 30, 2019 7:47 pm

Matt Cavanaugh wrote:
We've already established that things in the US and UK are not the same. Hunt says it's cuz cops in the US are afforded the same 'reasonable fear' standard for self-defense as civilians, I say it's cuz perps in the US are more dangerous.
I say that it's because you've got a fucked up culture that believes in its wild west creation myth and the divine right of corporations to rule, as revealed to the masses by profits such as the NRA.

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Re: You is all a bunch of poofs!

#7548

Post by free thoughtpolice » Mon Sep 30, 2019 7:49 pm

Matt Cavanaugh wrote:
We've already established that things in the US and UK are not the same. Hunt says it's cuz cops in the US are afforded the same 'reasonable fear' standard for self-defense as civilians, I say it's cuz perps in the US are more dangerous.
From the Canadian perspective, I witnessed really unprofessional conduct from customs people as well as municipal cops in the US that surprised me.
When cops lose the people's trust it makes their job that much harder I would think.
Meanwhile, in the US people like store owners will likely have a piece under the cash register to deal with the robber. The armed thug in the US knows this and is more likely to shoot the cashier if they get all twitchy and thinks they were reaching for the heater.
It becomes a feedback loop.

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Re: You is all a bunch of poofs!

#7549

Post by Hunt » Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:27 pm

Matt Cavanaugh wrote: We've already established that things in the US and UK are not the same. Hunt says it's cuz cops in the US are afforded the same 'reasonable fear' standard for self-defense as civilians, I say it's cuz perps in the US are more dangerous.
It should be clear by now that I'm open to other remedies as well.

Ending the disastrous War on Drugs. It creates the lucrative illegal drug markets that cause crime and reciprocally, police use of force. It should go without saying that I'm not expressing sympathy for drug runners, rather for us dumb fucks, the citizens who have to deal with jacked up cops responding to the threat.

Controlling gun proliferation. The one thing the NRA and gun nuts don't want to hear is that yet another front has been opened up against them, but dealing with gun prevalence is a major reason we have militant and paranoid cops. I can see that contrasted in both states I live. In HI cops will actually talk to you at the door of your car, while in CA you will suffer a cervical spinal fracture if you try to address a cop face to face.

Reforming Police in ways other than rules of engagement. I personally dislike the Broken Windows policies. I think much of America is over-policed and harassed by police. Many agencies have already self-reformed for the better. Fewer police interactions means fewer opportunities for shootings. In my area I have to think to remember when I last saw a cop hiding in ambush to give motorists tickets. They now (seem to) have adopted a policy where in the course of their patrol, they see a blatant violation, THEN they give a ticket. Guess what, civilization hasn't fallen. Policing is less tedious (I would guess), and people don't get the impression that cops are sneaky little bastards out to get them. The last time I was in CA I was amazed, amazed to see a guy parking in a library lot and sleeping in his car overnight. In the past this NEVER would have happened. Police have backed off, thank fuck. It seems that (some) cops have finally gotten the message that the public was beginning to hate them, and they were suffering by it. Sadly I think that for this generation, it's kind of too late. When you lose the public trust, it's very very hard to get it back.

And loss of public trust is deadly. When cops lose public trust they attempt to regain control in other ways, become more aggressive and insistent on abject compliance. People grow frustrated, stops become tense, and tense stops turn deadly. Like the 17 year old kid in CO who was shot to death due to a combination of earned disrespect and intransigent policing. Neither party was without fault. The video, available to anyone who wants to see it, is so fucking sad I won't post it.

So there is a lot that could change and still keep "reasonable fear" intact.

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Re: You is all a bunch of poofs!

#7550

Post by Hunt » Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:39 pm

As a parenthetic thought to consider, the laxer "reasonable fear" standard itself feeds into loss of public trust, since it lowers the threshold for both valid and invalid use of deadly force. Lowered public trust raises the tension in cop/civilian interaction, which raises the probability for instances of use of force. Is the effect a strong feedback loop? I don't know, perhaps not, but it's something to chew on.

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Re: You is all a bunch of poofs!

#7551

Post by Hunt » Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:48 pm

Matt Cavanaugh wrote: It really shouldn't be that hard for a motivated person or group to sift through the 500-odd OIS p/a in the US, review the details of each incident, make an assessment -- however biased or not -- as to whether lethal force was appropriate, and perform simple division to arrive at a rate.
I'm not sure how easy this would be since there is no central database. I think the number is closer to 1200 and since there are 18,000 different police dept. in the US, this would probably require many hundreds of individual FOIA requests, waiting for each to respond, dealing with prosecutors who stonewall, etc. You'd think that in 2019 you would be able to get on the internet and google all this up in a matter of minutes, but no.

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Re: You is all a bunch of poofs!

#7552

Post by d4m10n » Tue Oct 01, 2019 4:27 am



:mrgreen:

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Re: You is all a bunch of poofs!

#7553

Post by Matt Cavanaugh » Tue Oct 01, 2019 6:29 am

free thoughtpolice wrote: Meanwhile, in the US people like store owners will likely have a piece under the cash register to deal with the robber. The armed thug in the US knows this and is more likely to shoot the cashier if they get all twitchy and thinks they were reaching for the heater.
It becomes a feedback loop.
And your proposed remedy for that is what, exactly?

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Re: You is all a bunch of poofs!

#7554

Post by Matt Cavanaugh » Tue Oct 01, 2019 6:58 am

Hunt wrote: It should be clear by now that I'm open to other remedies as well.

Ending the disastrous War on Drugs. It creates the lucrative illegal drug markets that cause crime and reciprocally, police use of force. It should go without saying that I'm not expressing sympathy for drug runners, rather for us dumb fucks, the citizens who have to deal with jacked up cops responding to the threat.
Making it easier to get drugs will only make things worse. The recent rise in crime in my area is a direct result of the legalization of pot growing and the increased access to meth and opioids. Most crimes are either committed to get money for drugs, or while the perp is high. Even at 'legal' prices, an addict can't hold down a job, so will eventually resort to crime to pay for their habit. Knowing there's an even greater chance the driver they pull over is whacked out will make the cops all the more wary and 'itchy''.

Controlling gun proliferation.
Criminals with guns is the problem. I'm in favor of controlling criminal proliferation, but am open to suggestions on how to keep criminals in their native habitat only take their guns away.

The last time I was in CA I was amazed, amazed to see a guy parking in a library lot and sleeping in his car overnight. In the past this NEVER would have happened. Police have backed off, thank fuck.
I'm not sure why anyone would condone vagrancy or laud California's atrocious failure to address its growing homelessness epidemic.

... I think much of America is over-policed and harassed by police....

... It seems that (some) cops have finally gotten the message that the public was beginning to hate them....

... When you lose the public trust, it's very very hard to get it back....

... Lowered public trust raises the tension in cop/civilian interaction....
I don't know anyone personally who hates the cops or feels they're being overly harassed. Maybe it's a rural thing. Or maybe you run with a different crowd. Or maybe you've swallowed the MSM/BLM agitprop. AFAICT, aside from leftist elites who rarely interact with police, the only 'communities' that feel so are black ones, cuz they've been told it's the Systemic Racism™ and not the fact that their neighborhoods are crime-ridden, that they commit crimes at 3x the rate of whites and 35x of asians, are themselves the victims of nearly all that crime, yet nearly always become belligerent when interacting with police and usually resist arrest, and declare it "genocide" when 200-300 career criminals a year are permanently prevented from victimizing them.

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Re: You is all a bunch of poofs!

#7555

Post by Matt Cavanaugh » Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:16 am

Hunt wrote:
Matt Cavanaugh wrote: It really shouldn't be that hard for a motivated person or group to sift through the 500-odd OIS p/a in the US, review the details of each incident, make an assessment -- however biased or not -- as to whether lethal force was appropriate, and perform simple division to arrive at a rate.
I'm not sure how easy this would be since there is no central database. I think the number is closer to 1200 and since there are 18,000 different police dept. in the US, this would probably require many hundreds of individual FOIA requests, waiting for each to respond, dealing with prosecutors who stonewall, etc. You'd think that in 2019 you would be able to get on the internet and google all this up in a matter of minutes, but no.
I'd say that sweeping societal changes like the ones you propose would merit somewhat more research effort than has been expended so far.

You could start with the WaPo database on the reasonable assumption that it's a representative sample.

You could pick one of 400+ police depts:
https://www.policedatainitiative.org/datasets/

Or work with a private compilation of OIS since 2000:
xhttps://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dKmaV_JiWcG8XBoRgP8b4e9Eopkpgt7FL7nyspvzAsE/edit#gid=0

Flag the incidents you believe could've been resolved without use of force, and divide by the total, then we can talk. But just-so stories about racism or John Wayne Culture won't fly.

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Re: You is all a bunch of poofs!

#7556

Post by Pitchguest » Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:56 am

d4m10n wrote:

:mrgreen:
Welcome to the Pit, Mr. Silverman.

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Re: You is all a bunch of poofs!

#7557

Post by free thoughtpolice » Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:46 am

Matt Cavanaugh wrote:
free thoughtpolice wrote: Meanwhile, in the US people like store owners will likely have a piece under the cash register to deal with the robber. The armed thug in the US knows this and is more likely to shoot the cashier if they get all twitchy and thinks they were reaching for the heater.
It becomes a feedback loop.
And your proposed remedy for that is what, exactly?
I don't have a proposal, just an observation.
I do wonder why there isn't a limit on magazine capacity. It probably wouldn't do a lot but occasionally make it more difficult for spree shooters to rack up such a high death count.

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Re: You is all a bunch of poofs!

#7558

Post by KiwiInOz » Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:08 pm

Matt Cavanaugh wrote:
free thoughtpolice wrote: Meanwhile, in the US people like store owners will likely have a piece under the cash register to deal with the robber. The armed thug in the US knows this and is more likely to shoot the cashier if they get all twitchy and thinks they were reaching for the heater.
It becomes a feedback loop.
And your proposed remedy for that is what, exactly?
Nuke the US from orbit. It's the only way.

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Re: You is all a bunch of poofs!

#7559

Post by Hunt » Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:48 pm

She...wait for it... feared for her life.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/deliberation ... 00888.html

Well, at least she's having her ass handed her. For the record, this is a perfect case where rehabilitative justice should be applied. I've no doubt she made a terrible mistake. Is she racist (probably) and a dumb fuck (definitely) sure. Unfortunately, the diverse jury is probably going to give her a double digit sentence, perhaps one starting with "2" or more. In reality she should get a few years of prison time out with intensive sensitivity training.

My heart bleeds. I'm going to go walk on water now.

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Re: You is all a bunch of poofs!

#7560

Post by AndrewV69 » Tue Oct 01, 2019 3:05 pm

You guys remember that white female cop who shot and killed a black man in his home while he was eating some ice cream?



You know, I recall seeing this mentioned more than a few time in the Manosphere. Female cops resort to force as a first option because they know that they are physically weaker than most of the perps. I wonder if this actually matched up with reality though?

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