Bleeding from the Bunghole

Old subthreads
welch
.
.
Posts: 9208
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:05 am

Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

#20346

Post by welch »

Brive1987 wrote:
Dick Strawkins wrote:OK, after doing a little cross-checking I think the most likely place that Pamela Gay's 2008 incident happened was DragonCon of that year.
I'm pretty sure that this is a picture from the party in question.
No sign of Shermer but here's Pamela Gay with Satan himself DJ Grothe.

I'm not sure if this was before the stumble/grope or after (she doesn't exactly appear traumatized in this shot)

http://i.imgur.com/JfhWorS.jpg

I would say that both DJ Grothe AND Pamela Gay look a bit drunk in this picture.
I don't know, based on DJs hands off stance I'd guess he was feeling a bit .... Uncomfortable there ...
Or the pic was taken as he was putting his hand on her shoulder, or patting her shoulder...nah, that couldn't be it.

Tony Parsehole
.
.
Posts: 6658
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:16 am
Location: Middlesbrough

Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

#20347

Post by Tony Parsehole »

@Ape Lust
How the fuck do you get that plasticy sheen on your Photoshopped characters? It's luvverly.

Lsuoma
Fascist Tit
Posts: 11692
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:58 pm
Location: Punggye-ri

Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

#20348

Post by Lsuoma »

Dick Strawkins wrote: What exactly is going on with the guy below?

http://i.imgur.com/1TAcYtm.jpg
It all makes sense when you think of men as toilets.

Tony Parsehole
.
.
Posts: 6658
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:16 am
Location: Middlesbrough

Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

#20349

Post by Tony Parsehole »

Only rapists do hover-hand.
True story.

welch
.
.
Posts: 9208
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:05 am

Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

#20350

Post by welch »

THat wouldn't surprise me at all, depending on time period and region. High School teachers end up doing a lot of damage to the dreams of their students.

Brive1987
.
.
Posts: 17791
Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:16 am

Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

#20351

Post by Brive1987 »

welch wrote:
Brive1987 wrote:
Dick Strawkins wrote:OK, after doing a little cross-checking I think the most likely place that Pamela Gay's 2008 incident happened was DragonCon of that year.
I'm pretty sure that this is a picture from the party in question.
No sign of Shermer but here's Pamela Gay with Satan himself DJ Grothe.

I'm not sure if this was before the stumble/grope or after (she doesn't exactly appear traumatized in this shot)

http://i.imgur.com/JfhWorS.jpg

I would say that both DJ Grothe AND Pamela Gay look a bit drunk in this picture.
I don't know, based on DJs hands off stance I'd guess he was feeling a bit .... Uncomfortable there ...
Or the pic was taken as he was putting his hand on her shoulder, or patting her shoulder...nah, that couldn't be it.
Da foto don't lie. ;)

Don't wreak my counter harassment theory!

Dick Strawkins
.
.
Posts: 5859
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:34 pm

Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

#20352

Post by Dick Strawkins »

welch wrote:
Dick Strawkins wrote:OK, after doing a little cross-checking I think the most likely place that Pamela Gay's 2008 incident happened was DragonCon of that year.
I'm pretty sure that this is a picture from the party in question.
No sign of Shermer but here's Pamela Gay with Satan himself DJ Grothe.

I'm not sure if this was before the stumble/grope or after (she doesn't exactly appear traumatized in this shot)

http://i.imgur.com/JfhWorS.jpg

I would say that both DJ Grothe AND Pamela Gay look a bit drunk in this picture.
So you have no idea what the time relationship is between that pic and the incident, so it means...nothing. What she looks like in that pic has zero meaning in this situation.
Who said I have no idea of the time relationship?

Here's the incident itself (or just before it)

http://i.imgur.com/20vC9Cs.jpg

From this we can tell that the previous DJ Grothe/Pamela Gay picture comes from the same party. That fact, plus the other pictures I've posted, at least gives us some background as to the tone of the event (that of drunken frivolity as far as I can tell)

Lsuoma
Fascist Tit
Posts: 11692
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:58 pm
Location: Punggye-ri

Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

#20353

Post by Lsuoma »

Trophy wrote:
Sulman wrote:Best put your umbrellas up.

http://www.starstryder.com/2013/11/06/t ... -humanity/
I have some sympathies for what she went through and she (nobody in fact) deserves to be unwillingly touched or made her/his work place turned uncomfortable by people making inappropriate comments but geez, the article is really over the top:
I am struggling with hearing that an event I categorized as “A drunk ass tried to grab my boobs,” is now being discussed by witnesses as, “He tried to sexually assault her in a bar while intoxicated.” I had created a euphemism for myself, and having that euphemism striped away is making me realize that I have been hiding from myself the true degree to which I have been harmed.
So she had managed to get over an extremely mild incident with no problem until her "friends" tried to spin it in the most horrible way and now she cannot cope with it anymore. Score 1 for feminism. So let's see ... when I was a kid a car bumped hard into ours so maybe it helps if I keep repeating to myself "I had a potentially lethal car crash as a child" before going to sleep every night and see how it improves my life. Yay!
Reminds me of this from "Homer Badman":

Lisa: Dad, I don't understand. What is she saying you did?
Homer: Well, Lisa, remember that postcard Grampa sent us from Florida of that alligator biting that woman's bottom?
Bart: Oh, yeah, that was _brilliant_!
Homer: That's right, we all thought it was hilarious. But it turns out we were wrong: that alligator was sexually harassing the woman.
Bart: And the dog in the Coppertone ad? Same deal, Dad?
Homer: Well, there's kind of a grey area.

bhoytony
.
.
Posts: 3017
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:56 am

Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

#20354

Post by bhoytony »

Dick Strawkins wrote:
http://i.imgur.com/20vC9Cs.jpg
Whoa, I wouldn't be groping her, she's got arms like Schwarzenegger. She could rag doll you all over the room.

jet_lagg
.
.
Posts: 2681
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 1:57 pm

Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

#20355

Post by jet_lagg »

Guest wrote: Carrier begins his defense by claiming that all the criticism that he has ever heard, EVER, about his theory, can be addressed by 'read the book' or 'read the book more carefully'.

He ends stating how he's not impressed with any of this criticism, after a typical long-winded tour de farce describing that he couldn't possibly be wrong, because reasons.

How do you see him treating criticism of his scholarship seriously there? He also doesn't adjust his positions; he begins and ends with saying all the criticism of him ever is wrong.

You're sure you're not the Dick Carrier?
I'm pretty sure I'm not Dick Carrier, but I've been wrong about things in the past. ;)

Anyway, if you think Carrier is an arrogant fuck (you're definitely not alone if that's what you think), I'm not going to argue about that with you. Just not interested in that conversation.

Meanwhile you haven't actually shown he doesn't take criticism seriously. The fact that he took the time to summarize and refute the criticism (rather than just ignoring it or handwaving it away) shows that he takes it seriously. The tone he does it in is irrelevant to me, and I think it should be to you as well. I'm not suggesting everyone run out and become the man's friend. I'm saying his book on bayes theorem is good.

welch
.
.
Posts: 9208
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:05 am

Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

#20356

Post by welch »

windy wrote:
Trophy wrote:
During my July 2012 talk at The Amazing Meeting ... I briefly addressed many of the issues that hold women like me back ... What shocked me was the form and degree of backlash.
I don't remember that talk but I don't doubt her when she says she received backlash. But reading the rest of the article, I really cannot bring myself to trust the adjectives she uses.
because I admitted that gender related comments hurt my self esteem, there were authority figures who demanded I be punished. While my direct supervisor and the dean we report to have always made me feel respected and have supported me, there were others within my profession who demanded I publicly apologize; that I be formally punished for what I said.
So the people who actually had the power to hurt her career were very supportive. Also, on "authority figures in Academia can hurt ma career!" I'm again skeptical of her evaluation of the situation: they cannot create obstacles in her getting tenure, because as far as I know she can request them *not* be in her committee. BTW, who are "others within my profession"? Since it's public we should know them right? Does anyone have anything on this?
This is what she said at TAM about it:
This talk is one I struggled to write. To finish this talk I have to step out of my comfort zone and give an honest acknowledgement that trolling isn’t something that just happens in nebulous random places on the internet and it isn’t just people being verbal in their close-mindedness. Sometimes things are more physical and more scary. As an astronomer, at professional conferences, I’ve randomly had my tits and ass grabbed and slapped by men in positions of power and by creeps who drank too much. This is part of what it means to be a woman in science. With the creeps I generally hold my own and get them to back off like I would with any asshole in a bar. With the people in power… I commiserate with the other women as we share stories of what has been grabbed by whom. I know as I say this that it sounds unbelievable – and how can we report the unbelievable and expect to be believed?

This isn’t to say women shouldn’t go into astronomy. It is just to say that in the after hours events, you sometimes need to keep your butt to the wall and your arms crossed over your chest.

Some of you have to have power to stop discrimination and harassment. It pisses me off to know that as strong as I am, I know I’m not powerful enough to name names and be confident that I’ll still have a career.
https://www.starstryder.com/2012/07/15/ ... ld-better/

I'm not sure why someone would bother to make a professional complaint over these vague accusations, so it seems likely that we aren't getting the whole story.
Once again...maybe the blatant encouragement to get as shitfaced as humanly possible is not the smartest fucking idea. Notice how often booze shows up as a commonality.

Her comments though are a reason why I've really stopped drinking beyond minimally in public. (I've never really drank at home. I'm literally only a "social drinker".) Because once you get a bunch of people:

1) Away from home and family
2) In a group with "their people"
3) getting fucking blitzed

you are going to have shit happen. Fuck, we have a name for it: What Happens in Vegas, Stays in Vegas. Especially if those people tend to be somewhat introverted or disciplined or uptight in their daily lives. TIME TO LET GO. le joy.

I have no problem with drinking in a responsible fashion. But this "Ooooh, an open bar, CHALLENGE ACCEPTED" shit? Really? What are you , 19 with an illicit keg? Come the fuck on. Spending a week in either a drunken or hungover haze is nothing to be happy about, and given the fun effects alcohol can have on people that they can't easily predict, I don't see why the "TIME TO GET WASTED" concept isn't taken out back and put down like Old Yeller.

I've been around drunken idiots and tens of thousands of wasted potheads, and I'll tell you, the potheads, while annoying for other reasons, never caused the problems that the drunks did. Hempfest is awesome to go to, even if you don't partake. Anything with the word "budweiser" or any other beer/alcohol manufacturer in the name? Fuck no.

welch
.
.
Posts: 9208
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:05 am

Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

#20357

Post by welch »

Tony Parsehole wrote:Just for the record, Napoleon Dynamite is one of the funniest films ever made but only after watching it at least twice.
I walked out of it in the theater, but loved it as a DVD. No idea why that difference was so important.

jet_lagg
.
.
Posts: 2681
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 1:57 pm

Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

#20358

Post by jet_lagg »

welch wrote:I eagerly await your next salvo in "Points: How the fuck do they work?"

Trophy
.
.
Posts: 601
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:17 am

Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

#20359

Post by Trophy »

Dick Strawkins wrote:gives us some background as to the tone of the event (that of drunken frivolity as far as I can tell)
Yes. That people in skeptic conference party way past their age like a bunch of college wankers. Lots of lolz for us though. Just imagine all that untapped potential for shooping.

bhoytony
.
.
Posts: 3017
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:56 am

Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

#20360

Post by bhoytony »

welch wrote: Anything with the word "budweiser" or any other beer/alcohol manufacturer in the name? Fuck no.
Anything with the word budweiser and either the words beer or alcohol in it would be a breach of the Trades Descriptions Act.

jet_lagg
.
.
Posts: 2681
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 1:57 pm

Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

#20361

Post by jet_lagg »

Trophy wrote:
Dick Strawkins wrote:gives us some background as to the tone of the event (that of drunken frivolity as far as I can tell)
Yes. That people in skeptic conference party way past their age like a bunch of college wankers. Lots of lolz for us though. Just imagine all that untapped potential for shooping.
I wonder if it's because I'm not quite yet middle aged, or because I find the frenzied, orgiastic nature of human revelry to be so fascinating, but I still tend to get really, really fucking wasted at parties. Then again, I'm also completely introverted, so my idea of a good time is to find a nice place in the rafters from which to watch the carnage unfold.

Tony Parsehole
.
.
Posts: 6658
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:16 am
Location: Middlesbrough

Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

#20362

Post by Tony Parsehole »

jet_lagg wrote:
Guest wrote: Carrier begins his defense by claiming that all the criticism that he has ever heard, EVER, about his theory, can be addressed by 'read the book' or 'read the book more carefully'.

He ends stating how he's not impressed with any of this criticism, after a typical long-winded tour de farce describing that he couldn't possibly be wrong, because reasons.

How do you see him treating criticism of his scholarship seriously there? He also doesn't adjust his positions; he begins and ends with saying all the criticism of him ever is wrong.

You're sure you're not the Dick Carrier?
I'm pretty sure I'm not Dick Carrier, but I've been wrong about things in the past. ;)

Anyway, if you think Carrier is an arrogant fuck (you're definitely not alone if that's what you think), I'm not going to argue about that with you. Just not interested in that conversation.

Meanwhile you haven't actually shown he doesn't take criticism seriously. The fact that he took the time to summarize and refute the criticism (rather than just ignoring it or handwaving it away) shows that he takes it seriously. The tone he does it in is irrelevant to me, and I think it should be to you as well. I'm not suggesting everyone run out and become the man's friend. I'm saying his book on bayes theorem is good.
There's a few questions we can ask to test whether you're Dick Carrier or not.

1) Do you have a legion of fans?
1a) If so, do they span the globe?

2) If you were to lend your support to a cause which of the sentences below would be the most accurate metaphor to describe that support?:
a) Cleverness Howitzer
b) Barrage of brightness
c) Intellectual artillery

3) How many times did you masturbate in front of the mirror today?:
a) None
b) More than once but less than ten
c) Ten or more times but less than thirty
d) Until your spunk ran out and only foam came out of the end.

4) If somebody called you the saviour of humanity would you think they were:
a) Lying
b) Deluded
c) Joking
d) Sycophantic but wrong
e) Dead-on accurate

Tony Parsehole
.
.
Posts: 6658
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:16 am
Location: Middlesbrough

Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

#20363

Post by Tony Parsehole »

bhoytony wrote:
welch wrote: Anything with the word "budweiser" or any other beer/alcohol manufacturer in the name? Fuck no.
Anything with the word budweiser and either the words beer or alcohol in it would be a breach of the Trades Descriptions Act.
Aw, snap. I pissed in my mate's Budweiser once and he never noticed. Fucking awful stuff.

Tony Parsehole
.
.
Posts: 6658
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:16 am
Location: Middlesbrough

Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

#20364

Post by Tony Parsehole »

welch wrote:
Tony Parsehole wrote:Just for the record, Napoleon Dynamite is one of the funniest films ever made but only after watching it at least twice.
I walked out of it in the theater, but loved it as a DVD. No idea why that difference was so important.
So you too thought it was a bit crap the first time round?
What the fuck was up with watching it a second time? Why were we compelled to give it another go?

Service Dog
.
.
Posts: 8652
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:52 pm

Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

#20365

Post by Service Dog »

1/3

I wonder if Ogvorbis’s claims of being a victim and perpetrator of underage sexual assault are credible? Or are they an intentional hoax? Or perhaps they’re sincere delusions? [TLDR: I still don’t know.]

My research consisted of googling “Ogvorbis” plus “scout*”, so this long comment mostly addresses his claim to have been raped, rather than his claim to have been a rapist. I began there because, in the past, discrepancies caught my eye. For example, this shift from “three” to “two” assailants:
27 February, 2008
"Being beaten by three fellow Boy Scouts because I would not say “Jesus is my saviour” while the Scout Master watched"
22 June, 2009
" Once, while one of the leaders watched, I was beaten by two other scouts as they tried to make me say that I accepted Jesus as my saviour.
I find it plausible that his memory is merely vague. I find it equally plausible that he can’t keep his lies straight.

Other apparent discrepancies, after a closer reading, do make sense: Ogvorbis describes some events as taking place when he was a Cub Scout with a Mormon “Scout Master.” In other tales, he’s a Boy Scout who didn’t fit-in among Protestants. It turns out his stories are consistent: Ogvorbis was both a Cub Scout in the Southwest and, later, a Boy Scout in the Northeast, after his family moved. (Which means Ogvorbis’s stories of being raped took place thousands of miles away— and years apart— from Ogvorbis’s stories of committing rape.)

Where to begin? Let’s start with the persona Ogvorbis presented at his wordpress and blogspot blogs. His bio says “I am living proof that atheists are not evil baby-eating monsters out to destroy all that is good.” He claims to be “normal” “happily married” “boring” and “bland”, with two kids and a minivan. His posts are generic liberal sermons against “fundie” republicans. These could be any Democrat’s blog posts: atheism is just another talking-point. Ogvorbis wants to “expose the reality behind the milque-toast facades” of his opponents. Ironically, Ogvorbis exposed his own milque-toast facade as concealing a monster.

But back in 2009, Ogvorbis’s stories still had clear Bad Guys and Good Guys. There was not yet any mention of being raped or committing rape. Instead, Ogvorbis told another story— very similar to the one about being beaten by other scouts for not accepting Jesus. But this time adult wasn’t just a scout leader, but also a preacher— who directly ordered boys to attack:
“...the scout leaders led us in prayer.  The prayer was heavy on eternal damnation, total surrender to Jesus, the whole proverbial nine yards.  I, along with another newbie (John (who was also an import (not a native))), sat silently.  We didn’t add any of the amens.   We just sat without disrupting what was, to us, a bizarre experience.

As we finished dinner, the leader who led the prayer (I seem to remember that he was an auto mechanic and preacher) called over the two oldest scouts and whispered some instructions in their ears.  They kept glancing at us (the newbies) and nodding.

The scout leaders left to go find a bar, and the older scouts decided to take us all on a snipe hunt.  They took us down to the lake and made some lame excuse about chasing the snipes toward us.  John and I discussed the situation quietly and decided that (a) they obviously thought we were idiots, (b) they were obviously planning to dump us in the mud we passed on the way over and (c) we were tired.  So we walked up to the road, walked back to our camp and went to bed.

At 4:00 in the morning, we were awakened by a flashlight shining in our faces and a voice calling, “They’re in the tent.”  Turned out that when we didn’t walk back past the mud (where they were waiting for us), the older scouts had gone to the spot they had left us and, not finding us there, walked all the way around the lake, searching for us.  Then, they panicked, contacted another scout leader and, within a half-hour, every scout in the camp was looking for us.  Before calling in the state troopers, someone decided to check the tent.

Guess who’s fault it was?  The scout leaders who, after the fire and brimstone pre-dinner sermon had left the scouts alone and gone to a bar?  No.  The scouts who left us by a lake, assuming we would take the muddy route back, and then panicked?  No.  The two 13-year-old kids lying, sound asleep, in the tent?  Yes.  Oddly, everyone thought that it was our fault.  We did not participate in any further activities.”
It seems quite possible that Ogvorbis misconstrued a harmless snipe hunt with scouts who were genuinely concerned for his safety, twisting it into a hoary, heavy-handed Us vs. Them morality tale. Or maybe the scouts really were monsters. Five days before posting his account of the Snipe Hunt, Ogvorbis wrote an unrelated post, which was far less charitable... of a fellow scout who, like Ogvorbis, quit a game early. Ogvorbis applies a double-standard:
It reminds me of a kid with whom I was in Boy Scouts. In a board game, baseball game, football game, if he didn’t get his way, he took the game or ball (on at least one occasion the football didn’t belong to him) and went home. Christians are not persecuted. They are spoiled brats.
The snipe-hunt post ends with a Good Guys vs. Bad Guys narrative, giving Halos to his Cub Scout leaders/ and Horns to his boy scout leaders:
“I’ve heard, from many people, about the moral and spiritual values of scouting.  And the ones I learned as a cub scout — help others, be honest, be creative, have fun (safely) — were good ones.  The ones I learned as a Boy Scout – beat others to make them agree, abuse the younger ones, lie, cheat (I played cards with them.  Once), steal (I lost a good Swiss Army knife at that camp), blame others, ignore responsibility, and (most important) if I don’t worship the skydaddy and his son I’m not even considered human – are ones I have tried hard not to emulate.”
More recently, Ogvorbis has forgotten his “good” “honest” “fun (safely)” opinion of Cub Scouting; shifting to categorically “not liking scouts”:
11 September 2013
"TRIGGER WARNING

I never told. Still haven’t told anyone outside of this blog. I didn’t even remember any details beyond not liking scouts until I was in my 40s. So, Jenny6833am, are my flashbacks, body memories, panic attacks, massive guilt, because I was brainwashed into thinking that it really was wrong to be anally raped by a middle-aged man when I was 9 years old?"
On Oct 6 2012, after recovering his memory of having been raped, Ogvorbis also recovered his memory of his rapist being devoutly religious:
Of course, the asshole scoutmaster who raped me was married, attended church regularly, prayed regularly, tithed fully, and was very active in the Mormon church
On December 13 2012, Chris Clarke posted to Pharyngula a link to Jezebel’s “Fuck You Men’s Rights Activists”, equating MRAs with murderer Marc Lepine and other obscenities. A commenter asked “Has anyone here ever encountered these guys other than on the internet?”

continued...

Service Dog
.
.
Posts: 8652
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:52 pm

Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

#20366

Post by Service Dog »

2/3

Ogvorbis replied, recovering a memory that the cub scout leader who raped him (in addition to devout Mormonism) was an MRA, and held a bizarre philosophy:
“Has anyone here ever encountered these guys other than on the internet?”

Yes. In elementary school, high school, college, at forest fires, at work, as kid’s school.
TRIGGER WARNING
When I was a cub scout, I was raped by my scoutmaster. His reasoning, stated quite plainly, was that there were two kinds of people — men and girls. Some girls grew up to be men; the rest of them existed for the pleasure of men and if they refused to give the men pleasure, he was entitled to take it.

In high school, there was a group of jocks who were well-known at the school for getting girls drunk at parties and raping them. Of course, to them (and to the rest of us uneducated morons at the school) getting drunk gave the jocks permission to do what they wanted. Most of the boys at the high school envied these jocks. The girls were not humans, they were fuckdolls, cunts, mattresses. Another group of boys joked about using veterinary tranquilizers on their dates. At least, I hope they were joking.
In college, some of the young men that I knew didn’t view the young women as students. They were entertainment, drunk or sober, willing or not.

At forest fires, I have heard LEOs refer to a transgendered person as ‘it’ (I did point out, in one of our security meetings, that this was not acceptable; if a person who has male plumbing identifies as a woman, she is a she unless that person requests a different pronoun). I have heard, and objected to (recently, anyway), jokes about rape, about incest, about beating women to make them compliant. I have heard law enforcement officers joke about how much fun it is to interview a woman who ‘claims to have been raped’, getting all the details on video.

At work, I have heard fellow employees joke about rape, about beating women. I speak up, loudly, when I hear it and, over the past year, I haven’t heard it as much. A fellow employee went through a very long and acrimonious divorce and, during that time, he talked about the courts giving everything to the ex-wife, how he couldn’t even visit the kids (the divorce was, primarily, about him verbally and physically abusing his children and wife (he’s “better” now after six months of therapy)), how everything in the US is stacked against men because of the damned feminists.

So yes, I have met MRAs in person. And I will probably meet more.

And thank you, Kate Harding of Jezebel.
So far, I haven’t addressed Ogvorbis’s claims of having raped several other children. Notice the clear Us vs. Them moralizing in the previous quote. Ogvorbis’s own actions are absent from his sermon on what qualifies someones as an MRA misogynist. In this telling, the “good” “moral and spiritual values” he attested to learning from cub scouting have been replaced by schizophrenic hate, far more nightmarish than the mundane cheating-at-cards-and-stealing-a-swiss-army-knife— which Ogvorbis previously offered examples of the worst of scouting’s teachings.


I find myself examining the pace of Ogvorbis’s recovered memories arriving, to see if they arrive a little too conveniently, too ‘on schedule’, to be plausible. Ogvorbis claims that the recovered memories began when he was telling-off an MRA. After 35 or 40 years of completely erasing any memory of having been raped, it just came out through his keyboard, to his own surprise. He claims to have spoken to no one outside of FtB comments, about the revelations.

Since then, Ogvorbis describes memories returning when he is ‘triggered’, and in the form of frequent nightmares. Ogvorbis also claims to have “9/11” triggers and, inconveniently, a job which involves forest fires. This may be true. But if it’s all a lie— then falsely claiming to be triggered by flashbacks to molestation AND 9/11... is the equivalent of recovering memories of past lives...as Napoleon AND Jesus. The hugest of cliches.

In a discussion of the BSA policy on homosexuals, commenters complained about group showers in gym class, swimming pools, etc. Ogvorbis’s triggering was captured in realtime:

http://i.imgur.com/yoch1dY.png

Many hugs later...
Ogvorbis: Apologies Available for All!
3 June 2013 at 7:57 pm (UTC -6) Link to this comment

Hi.
TRIGGER WARNING
Back from the brink. The mention of group showers and forced nudity for ‘bonding’ triggered a memory that was still hiding back there. I remembered taking a shower (maybe more than one?) with my rapist. And it was a lot more than just a shower. No need to go into details....
Eventually Ogvorbis did go into detail... revealing that the Scout Master bullied the boys of cub den to sexually assault a girl, whose name Ogvorbis eventually remembers as “S”, although he can’t identify her from school yearbooks. Ogvorbis also expands his list of rapists to include a woman photographing the rapes, and another man.

Perhaps an expert could tell whether genuine recovery of memories actually resembles the patter of a teevee psychic. I have no expertise:
Ogvorbis: Apologies Available for All!
12 June 2013 at 8:56 am (UTC -6) Link to this comment
mra
Good morning, all.
TRIGGER WARNING — DREAMS and RAPE (sorry, but I have to tell this somewhere)
My brain has been telling me for the last two nights that it is going to drop another shoe. I’m getting glimpses of another child, a toddler boy. My rapist is still part of this so I’m reasonably sure that if I did anything to this child (name not remembered yet (here we go again?)) it was under duress. It may take a while for me to convince myself of that when the shoe finally drops, but I can just keep reminding myself about S.
As I lay in bed last night, I began adding it up. Three (at least) adults — my scout leader, his wife, the guy from Flagstaff. Myself and four other scouts. Plus S and possibly this toddler I cannot remember. At least seven of us were raped by this asshole, some by his friend, all aided and abetted and much of it photographed by his wife. How the fuck can one man get away with so much abuse? Why didn’t someone step in? Why didn’t any of us tell someone outside of scouts (I told another scout leader and got yelled at for trying to destroy his life and lying about the rapes (though I never got specific with what he did when I did tell) and was forced to apologize to him alone)? And how the hell can ~2 years fuck up so much of me?
I’m scared. These details keep coming. A dream will give me a glimpse of something and then, like worrying a broken tooth, I have to keep picking at it until it finally opens. I don’t want to know these details but I can’t control myself to leave them alone. My brain walled them up for a good reason — they are almost unbearable.
This quote, from Rose Kennedy, seems apropos:
It has been said, ‘time heals all wounds.’ I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens. But it is never gone.
But now I am compulsively picking at that scar tissue like I have no control over me (which (as I have written before) scares me in a completely different way).
In recent days, during the twitter mobbing of Aneris regarding Ogvorbis-as-rapist, everyone seemed aware that Ogvorbis had been made to rape a girl, “S”. But Commenters seemed less aware of Ogvorbis’s claim to have been made to rape a toddler boy:

Ogvorbis: Apologies Available for All!
14 June 2013 at 11:47 am (UTC -6) Link to this comment

“billingtondev:
Damn. Hugs and support.”

Deep breath.
TRIGGER WARNING
Been having some of my wonderful ‘another shoe is about to drop’ nightmares. Opening up some memories (well, right now it looks like one memory) about yet another person I abused. Don’t remember his name. I do remember (now, anyway) that he was a toddler (3 or 4 years old?) and each one of us was photographed doing something different to him. Three of us. We were 9 and 10 years old, he was 3 or 4. And I’m headed right back down that fucknig ‘I enjoyed hurting someone else’ road. I know that I was coerced but I still enjoyed doing things to a toddler.

There are certain things in this world that are considered beyond the pale, unforgivable. Sexually abusing a child, a toddler, is one of the absolute biggest ones. I know what I did to this kid, and to S (and this is the biggest single reason I am terrified to actualyl tell anyone in person what I did), and this is the kind of thing that makes homicide justifiable in a court of law. I know that my choice was to either let the rapist hurt me or hurt that little kid (and yes, not remembering his name is scaring me but I hope that, as with S, I will remember his name at some future date (after I have punished myself enough?). Yes, I know that I was a child with few options but damnit! I chose to hurt him instead. Which is to me absolutely unforgievable. What I did to S, what I did to this child.

I appreciate y’all’s tolerance of my ramblings but I have no other place I feel safe enough to actually write down what I did.
continued...

Service Dog
.
.
Posts: 8652
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:52 pm

Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

#20367

Post by Service Dog »

3/3
Ogvorbis has commented on having been raped as a scout— many more times than the examples I’ve cited. He finds ways to work it in to conversations: When PZ posted that freed slaves didn’t rally to defend blacks who were lynched, Ogvorbis said the other cub scouts had a “better me than them” mentality. When Thunderfoot said taking precautions against rape was not victim-blaming, Ogvorbis gave the Oh Yeah? What Should I Have Done To Not Be Raped?! reply. As noted above, ‘Have you met an MRA in RL?’ was met with I Was Raped By One! I can’t firmly say whether Ogvorbis spins elaborate lies as-needed, as an all-purpose attention-grabbing device; or whether it’s a true story which so fully eclipses his mind/ that he views everything thru its lens. I think the corny, heavy-handed sermonizing of his blog indicates that he would wield a true story as a bludgeon, invoking it in ways indistinguishable from a propaganda lie.

I don’t know whether I will continue on, to examine the other half of Ogvorbis’s claims— that he was a teenage babysitter for a month and a half, and raped the girls in his care. At the moment, my original goal of knowing whether his claims are credible, an intentional hoax, or sincere delusions— seems somewhat moot. The end result of all three is the same: Ogvorbis isn’t a “there were no warning signs” kind of person. He’s broadcasting warning signs! Ogvorbis holds the type of job which requires a background check, to work with kids. To not report him is to make EXACTLY the same choice as any random parent who was aware of suspicious behavior by a Boy Scout volunteer (or any random Catholic who knew of a priest’s suspicious behavior)... and chose inaction.

If you think the issue is cut & dried, you MUST report him. (That means you SJWs). If you see any nuance or mitigating complexity in Ogvorbis’s favor— then please apply your newfound sense of balance to all the accused Conference Speakers, Attendees, Schrodinger’s Rapists, Testosterone-poisoned dudebros, “rape apologists”, rowdy YouTube Commenters, Richard Dawkins, decades of Boy Scouts, and the Holy Roman Catholic Church, witches of the week...

fin

windy
.
.
Posts: 2140
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:41 am
Location: Tom of Finland-land

Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

#20368

Post by windy »

welch wrote: I'm going by the statements he actually made in an essay on the subject and the followup he wrote. He spends zero time talking about profiling on any other characteristic than "muslim". In fact, he even hauls out the trope about a couple traveling dressed like Mr. & Mrs. Bin Laden. He also talks about, just as stupidly, stopping people who are "Irish" if you're looking for IRA terrorists. Pray tell, WTF makes someone "look Irish"? Right. if they don't have the accent, or a VERY gaelic name, you can't tell shit about them in terms of Irish.
That's easy, the Irish terrorists will be wearing something like this:

http://i.imgur.com/kdYj4wE.jpg

Tribble
.
.
Posts: 5102
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:34 pm

Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

#20369

Post by Tribble »

welch wrote:
So what happens if that rating turns out to be of fiscal importance? Well, the answer's obvious. You start inserting meaningless scenes of two women addressing each other by name and talking about how their fucking lawnmower doesn't work, or the car they just bought.

Congratulations, checkbox filled, and it only took five minutes of useless footage. Fuck, it doesn't even have to be from the same movie. Just shoot that scene and stick it in there. Doesn't matter if those two women showed up prior or again. Checkbox filled, rating attained. I mean, it totally fucks up the intent of the test, which I generally think is a good one, but once you start getting into regulations and law, intent doesn't matter, just the letter.
In certain sub-genres, at least here in America, a G or PG rating is death. So movie makers, even though it's pointless to the plot, will often add a bit of sex or even more violence to the film to get it up to PG-13 or even an R.

Another manipulaiton is movie makers will also add extra crap they don't plan in putting in the movie so they can throw the MPAA a bone.The SouthPark people did that in South Park Bigger, Longer & Uncut. Hell, they BRAGGED about doing that. Added extra shit to their movie that they never intended to stay in the movie so they could drop it and get an R rating for a movie that would have otherwise gotten an NC-17 rating.

OTOH, the Austin Powers movies, full of raunchy jokes, used the word 'fricken' instead of 'fuckin' to avoid an R rating.

So, yeah, let's add 5-minutes of stock footage to a movie. We have an A. Whop-de-fucking-do.

I wonder though, would Dr. Strangelove be any better? Would Glory? The Deer Hunter? Apocalypse Now? Lawrence of Arabia? The Bridge over the River Kwai? Zulu? Having two women yap for five minutes about their hemorrhoids, knitting, periods, car repairs, work, feelings, kids, muffin tops, or any one of the thousands upon thousands things that two women can talk about (besides men) made any of those movies better?

Well, maybe Pearl Harbor or Battleship... Those could have been improved by a lot of women chatting about stuff. And improved even more by not being made...

But, truthfully, two women chatting about stuff would have been pointless. Women were, simply put, not important to those movies. And there is nothing wrong with that. Just as there is nothing wrong with chick-flicks where the men, if there, there are basically plot-foils or objects to be won.

Jan Steen
Pit Art Master
Pit Art Master
Posts: 3061
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:18 am

Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

#20370

Post by Jan Steen »

jet_lagg wrote:
Guest wrote: Carrier begins his defense by claiming that all the criticism that he has ever heard, EVER, about his theory, can be addressed by 'read the book' or 'read the book more carefully'.

He ends stating how he's not impressed with any of this criticism, after a typical long-winded tour de farce describing that he couldn't possibly be wrong, because reasons.

How do you see him treating criticism of his scholarship seriously there? He also doesn't adjust his positions; he begins and ends with saying all the criticism of him ever is wrong.

You're sure you're not the Dick Carrier?
I'm pretty sure I'm not Dick Carrier, but I've been wrong about things in the past. ;)

Anyway, if you think Carrier is an arrogant fuck (you're definitely not alone if that's what you think), I'm not going to argue about that with you. Just not interested in that conversation.

Meanwhile you haven't actually shown he doesn't take criticism seriously. The fact that he took the time to summarize and refute the criticism (rather than just ignoring it or handwaving it away) shows that he takes it seriously. The tone he does it in is irrelevant to me, and I think it should be to you as well. I'm not suggesting everyone run out and become the man's friend. I'm saying his book on bayes theorem is good.
How can you tell he 'refuted' the criticism when you don't understand the maths?

The following citation from Carriers reply will cause all mathematically literate people to fall from their chairs howling with laughter.
I readily concede that my colloquial discourse will lead to ambiguities that chafe at mathematicians; but this is precisely the kind of shit they need to get over, because they are simply not going to be able to communicate with people in the humanities if they don’t learn how to strategically use ambiguity to increase the intelligibility of the concepts they want to relate.

It’s like Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle: you can have precision with unintelligibility to almost everyone but extremely erudite specialists, or you can have ambiguity but with intelligibility to everyone else. The more ambiguity, the greater the clarity, but the lower the precision. This is a fundamental principle of all nonfiction literature, especially any popularization of scientific or mathematical concepts to a nonscientific, nonmathematical public.
Look, if historians want to use mathematics in their research they will have to learn actual mathematics; not Carriers sloppy, informal stuff that is loaded with ambiguity. There is no royal road to mathematics.

Trophy
.
.
Posts: 601
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:17 am

Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

#20371

Post by Trophy »

Steersman is back and he's resurrected as Service Dog. Hallelujah!

Service Dog wrote: If you think the issue is cut & dried, you MUST report him. (That means you SJWs).
And the way I understand it, SJW don't report crimes and stuff to the police, that's totally useless. Everyone knows that you can only solve problems by blogging about it.

James Caruthers
.
.
Posts: 6257
Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2013 2:50 pm

Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

#20372

Post by James Caruthers »

Sulman wrote:For context, James, it is all aboot TAM.
It's always TAM. They should call it The Amazing Molestation. Atheist women should wear shirts that say "I'm a TAM survivor." January should be National TAM Awareness Month.

James Caruthers
.
.
Posts: 6257
Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2013 2:50 pm

Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

#20373

Post by James Caruthers »

Trophy wrote:Steersman is back and he's resurrected as Service Dog. Hallelujah!

Service Dog wrote: If you think the issue is cut & dried, you MUST report him. (That means you SJWs).
And the way I understand it, SJW don't report crimes and stuff to the police, that's totally useless. Everyone knows that you can only solve problems by blogging about it.
Police are patriarchy. Even the female officers. Even if the police chief is a woman.

Tribble
.
.
Posts: 5102
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:34 pm

Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

#20374

Post by Tribble »

Well, that was an interesting set of posts on Oggie. If it were possible to believe any of his claims less, those posts would have considerable weight. But I already don't believe anything he writes so there is no room to go down.

Trophy
.
.
Posts: 601
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:17 am

Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

#20375

Post by Trophy »

@Jan Steen:

Lol. Carrier: "Lern 2 uz big verdz bro!"

Also, Add me to the party who is not impressed by knowing about the Bayes law/theorem/whatever. I don't know jack about American education system but conditional probability was taught to us in high school. It's not mathematically complicated at all.

ROBOKiTTY
.
.
Posts: 1240
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:47 pm

Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

#20376

Post by ROBOKiTTY »

http://i.imgur.com/yoch1dY.png

Seriously? What about actually backing away and not posting at all? How melodramatic can you get? Is this a candlejack parody or someth

Sorry, back, after barely surviving that ordeal. Regardless of whether he's lying, he needs to get help and preferably isolate himself from the rest of the population.

Lsuoma
Fascist Tit
Posts: 11692
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:58 pm
Location: Punggye-ri

Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

#20377

Post by Lsuoma »

ROBOKiTTY wrote:http://i.imgur.com/yoch1dY.png

Seriously? What about actually backing away and not posting at all? How melodramatic can you get? Is this a candlejack parody or someth

Sorry, back, after barely surviving that ordeal. Regardless of whether he's lying, he needs to get help and preferably isolate himself from the rest of the population.
I see. Victim blaming...

:naughty: :naughty: :naughty:

Tribble
.
.
Posts: 5102
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:34 pm

Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

#20378

Post by Tribble »

ROBOKiTTY wrote:http://i.imgur.com/yoch1dY.png

Seriously? What about actually backing away and not posting at all? How melodramatic can you get? Is this a candlejack parody or someth

Sorry, back, after barely surviving that ordeal. Regardless of whether he's lying, he needs to get help and preferably isolate himself from the rest of the population.

When I back out, I don't do the melodrama effect thing. I just stop posting. In fact, for every post I've posted here, there's at least one post I've backed away from because it would do nobody any good to continue a fight or start a fight or add something that, after I've read it, looks pretty fucking silly, self-absorbed or just effing pointless.

And I've probably should cut half of what I have posted down/out.

ROBOKiTTY
.
.
Posts: 1240
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:47 pm

Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

#20379

Post by ROBOKiTTY »

Lsuoma wrote:
ROBOKiTTY wrote:[zomg]http://i.imgur.com/yoch1dY.png[/zomg]

Seriously? What about actually backing away and not posting at all? How melodramatic can you get? Is this a candlejack parody or someth

Sorry, back, after barely surviving that ordeal. Regardless of whether he's lying, he needs to get help and preferably isolate himself from the rest of the population.
I see. Victim blaming...

:naughty: :naughty: :naughty:
But I'm a victim too, of candlejack snatching me mid-typing. I'm literally shaking with fear and constantly looking over my shoulder as I'm typing th

James Caruthers
.
.
Posts: 6257
Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2013 2:50 pm

Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

#20380

Post by James Caruthers »

Southern wrote:
Dick Strawkins wrote:Another picture from the party.

For someone who now seems traumatized that Shermer nearly groped her breasts at that party, the following picture doesn't exactly paint her as a shrinking violet on the night in question.
What exactly is going on with the guy below?

http://i.imgur.com/1TAcYtm.jpg
The guy with the hat has a Hello Kitty cup. That, and the hat, make him so badass that she felt safe. She knew the guy trying to look at her tits didn't stand a chance if he tried to grope her; Hat Hello Kitty Guy would shove his cane on the othe guy's ass with just a swft move. And then he would make sweet, sexy love with her, because c'mon. That cup, and the hat, makes the panties drop, man.

Seriously, I envy that guy. I only wish I could look so badass with a Hello Kitty cup.
I found some more footage from TAM, guys!
[youtube]_Mvp-nOz9Gk[/youtube]
I think we've found the link between TAM and sexual harassment.

free thoughtpolice
.
.
Posts: 11165
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2012 4:27 pm

Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

#20381

Post by free thoughtpolice »

Dick Strawkins wrote:Lots of photos of the party available but nothing showing anything like an attempted grope (apart from the bottom pic)

http://i.imgur.com/81am8nQ.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/GLl4mEy.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/X578K64.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/FrcvSnh.jpg
In the third picture, she is blatantly fondling the guy's (Phil Plait's) boob. He also has an odd look on his face, clearly humiliated.
Pretty sure he has PTSD now.

Pitchguest
.
.
Posts: 4024
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 3:44 pm

Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

#20382

Post by Pitchguest »

re: the PTSD debate, I just don't get it. According to this section on Wiki, men are *more* likely to experience a traumatic event, but women are more likely to experience the kind of traumatic event that leads to PTSD. What?
Men are more likely to experience a traumatic event, but women are more likely to experience the kind of high impact traumatic event that can lead to PTSD, such as interpersonal violence and sexual assault.[2] Only a minority of people who are traumatized will develop PTSD, but they are more likely to be women. The average risk of developing PTSD after trauma is around 8% for men, while for women it is just over 20%.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posttrauma ... sk_factors

So, again, men are *more* likely to experience a traumatic event (whatever that means), but the ones who are more likely to develop PTSD are women?

Why? How do they figure that? Sounds dubious. But alright, whatever. It also says (not on that section, but on the page) that PTSD can develop after a sexual assault. *Any* sexual assault? Does getting your breasts groped count? I mean, say if this assault took place in a deserted alley in the middle of the night and a drunk person overpowered her to cop a feel (but didn't rape her or do anything else), surely that could be traumatic due to the situation she was in and the circumstances surrounding it. But her incident took place in a crowded bar, and she wasn't overpowered or anything. In fact, she wasn't even groped.

But the thing is, from her post, it doesn't sound like her diagnosis of PTSD had anything to do with the incident with Shermer, DJ Grothe or any sexual assault thereof. It sounds more like it was a case of her being extremely paranoid.
I hid behind long hair as I exited the audience of the conference session I was attending, and I hid in a foreign bathroom thinking my career was over. Three people wrote documents against me, and they named a forth complainant. No one else came forward to back me up in writing, even though for years there were those who felt fine telling me it was my gender that held me back and that when they had power they’d help me. I felt I had to get a lawyer in order to make sure my career wouldn’t be ruined – someone to find ways to use the existing guidelines to protect me. I exhausted my (admittedly small) savings. I started working more and more in isolation. I was diagnosed with PTSD. I tried to hide in my work, and that alone may have kept me going.
This was after she had given a talk at TAM 2012. Now, I have no idea what the hell the "fallout" she later refers to means (because she doesn't specify), but it sounds like she was afraid her career would be over. Whether the catalyst of this event is the attempt at a grope in 2008, I can't say because it's really vague and she doesn't reveal any further information that could pinpoint the cause of her, um, "brokenness." In any case, if her jumbled timeline is to be trusted, the time she was diagnosed with PTSD was some time after she gave her talk at TAM last year. NOT in 2008.

Frankly, she gets on my nerves. I read her whole post, even though the several melodramatic, emo-stricken moments almost made me sick.

If she wants to call herself a survivor, then grow a fucking backbone and don't say shit like, "There is absolutely no way for a woman to walk up to any man, let alone a prominent man they don’t really know, and say, ‘Pardon me, while you seemed to be drunk, you did this inappropriate thing." :snooty:

Tony Parsehole
.
.
Posts: 6658
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:16 am
Location: Middlesbrough

Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

#20383

Post by Tony Parsehole »

ROBOKiTTY wrote:http://i.imgur.com/yoch1dY.png

Seriously? What about actually backing away and not posting at all? How melodramatic can you get? Is this a candlejack parody or someth

Sorry, back, after barely surviving that ordeal. Regardless of whether he's lying, he needs to get help and preferably isolate himself from the rest of the population.
I thought EXACTLY the same. http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/candlejack
As if he just LITERALLY COULD NOT WRITE ANY MORE so had to stop mid-sentence....Then hit "post comment". Yeah right.

Fuck off Ogvorbis you child rapist cunt

Tony Parsehole
.
.
Posts: 6658
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:16 am
Location: Middlesbrough

Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

#20384

Post by Tony Parsehole »

Why is it always the ugly ones who confess to being groped?

Steersman
.
.
Posts: 10933
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 8:58 pm
Contact:

Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

#20385

Post by Steersman »

Jan Steen wrote:
jet_lagg wrote: <snip>
I'm pretty sure I'm not Dick Carrier, but I've been wrong about things in the past. ;)
<snip>
How can you tell he 'refuted' the criticism when you don't understand the maths?

The following citation from Carriers reply will cause all mathematically literate people to fall from their chairs howling with laughter.
I readily concede that my colloquial discourse will lead to ambiguities that chafe at mathematicians; but this is precisely the kind of shit they need to get over, because they are simply not going to be able to communicate with people in the humanities if they don’t learn how to strategically use ambiguity to increase the intelligibility of the concepts they want to relate.

It’s like Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle: you can have precision with unintelligibility to almost everyone but extremely erudite specialists, or you can have ambiguity but with intelligibility to everyone else. The more ambiguity, the greater the clarity, but the lower the precision. This is a fundamental principle of all nonfiction literature, especially any popularization of scientific or mathematical concepts to a nonscientific, nonmathematical public.
Look, if historians want to use mathematics in their research they will have to learn actual mathematics; not Carriers sloppy, informal stuff that is loaded with ambiguity. There is no royal road to mathematics.
Yes, that is definitely a howler; seems like someone is deep into the post-modernism.

But now that you mention it, I remember, like it was yesterday, how we were discussing the estimable Dr. Carrier who, in another tour de farce, had a new theory about quantum mechanics, and only needed some physicist to work out the details:
Over the years I have been mulling a problem in metaphysics: the ontological mysteries of Quantum Mechanics. I have been developing a theory in this regard (see, for example, The Ontology of Time and my unresolved alternatives in Sense and Goodness without God, pp. 98-99, III.4.1), and now, informed by some recent discoveries and publications in the sciences (and finally a stronger understanding of EPR experiments), I am able to write up a proposal intelligibly enough for an actual physicist to evaluate it.

Jan Steen
Pit Art Master
Pit Art Master
Posts: 3061
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:18 am

Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

#20386

Post by Jan Steen »

Ogvorbis comes across like a fun fair clairvoyant. Munchausen Syndrome writ large.

Tony Parsehole
.
.
Posts: 6658
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:16 am
Location: Middlesbrough

Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

#20387

Post by Tony Parsehole »

Jan Steen wrote:Ogvorbis comes across like a fun fair clairvoyant. Munchausen Syndrome writ large.
He comes across like a village gossip who says "EEEeeeee....Did you hear about what happened at....I CAN'T SAY ANYMORE! IT'S TOO TRAUMATIC!! (PM me for details)"

The worst kind of attention seeker. The one who uses his own hideous crimes to gain sympathy and support.

Jan Steen
Pit Art Master
Pit Art Master
Posts: 3061
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:18 am

Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

#20388

Post by Jan Steen »

Steersman wrote:
Jan Steen wrote:
jet_lagg wrote: <snip>
I'm pretty sure I'm not Dick Carrier, but I've been wrong about things in the past. ;)
<snip>
How can you tell he 'refuted' the criticism when you don't understand the maths?

The following citation from Carriers reply will cause all mathematically literate people to fall from their chairs howling with laughter.
I readily concede that my colloquial discourse will lead to ambiguities that chafe at mathematicians; but this is precisely the kind of shit they need to get over, because they are simply not going to be able to communicate with people in the humanities if they don’t learn how to strategically use ambiguity to increase the intelligibility of the concepts they want to relate.

It’s like Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle: you can have precision with unintelligibility to almost everyone but extremely erudite specialists, or you can have ambiguity but with intelligibility to everyone else. The more ambiguity, the greater the clarity, but the lower the precision. This is a fundamental principle of all nonfiction literature, especially any popularization of scientific or mathematical concepts to a nonscientific, nonmathematical public.
Look, if historians want to use mathematics in their research they will have to learn actual mathematics; not Carriers sloppy, informal stuff that is loaded with ambiguity. There is no royal road to mathematics.
Yes, that is definitely a howler; seems like someone is deep into the post-modernism.

But now that you mention it, I remember, like it was yesterday, how we were discussing the estimable Dr. Carrier who, in another tour de farce, had a new theory about quantum mechanics, and only needed some physicist to work out the details:
Over the years I have been mulling a problem in metaphysics: the ontological mysteries of Quantum Mechanics. I have been developing a theory in this regard (see, for example, The Ontology of Time and my unresolved alternatives in Sense and Goodness without God, pp. 98-99, III.4.1), and now, informed by some recent discoveries and publications in the sciences (and finally a stronger understanding of EPR experiments), I am able to write up a proposal intelligibly enough for an actual physicist to evaluate it.
Let's also not forget his brilliant solution to a pressing problem in Artificial Intelligence. What if an intelligent robot is evil? Solution: You just have to "frontload some morality". :lol:

Really?
.
.
Posts: 6460
Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2013 2:34 pm

Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

#20389

Post by Really? »

Pitchguest wrote:re: the PTSD debate, I just don't get it. According to this section on Wiki, men are *more* likely to experience a traumatic event, but women are more likely to experience the kind of traumatic event that leads to PTSD. What?
Men are more likely to experience a traumatic event, but women are more likely to experience the kind of high impact traumatic event that can lead to PTSD, such as interpersonal violence and sexual assault.[2] Only a minority of people who are traumatized will develop PTSD, but they are more likely to be women. The average risk of developing PTSD after trauma is around 8% for men, while for women it is just over 20%.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posttrauma ... sk_factors

So, again, men are *more* likely to experience a traumatic event (whatever that means), but the ones who are more likely to develop PTSD are women?

Why? How do they figure that? Sounds dubious. But alright, whatever. It also says (not on that section, but on the page) that PTSD can develop after a sexual assault. *Any* sexual assault? Does getting your breasts groped count? I mean, say if this assault took place in a deserted alley in the middle of the night and a drunk person overpowered her to cop a feel (but didn't rape her or do anything else), surely that could be traumatic due to the situation she was in and the circumstances surrounding it. But her incident took place in a crowded bar, and she wasn't overpowered or anything. In fact, she wasn't even groped.

But the thing is, from her post, it doesn't sound like her diagnosis of PTSD had anything to do with the incident with Shermer, DJ Grothe or any sexual assault thereof. It sounds more like it was a case of her being extremely paranoid.
I hid behind long hair as I exited the audience of the conference session I was attending, and I hid in a foreign bathroom thinking my career was over. Three people wrote documents against me, and they named a forth complainant. No one else came forward to back me up in writing, even though for years there were those who felt fine telling me it was my gender that held me back and that when they had power they’d help me. I felt I had to get a lawyer in order to make sure my career wouldn’t be ruined – someone to find ways to use the existing guidelines to protect me. I exhausted my (admittedly small) savings. I started working more and more in isolation. I was diagnosed with PTSD. I tried to hide in my work, and that alone may have kept me going.
This was after she had given a talk at TAM 2012. Now, I have no idea what the hell the "fallout" she later refers to means (because she doesn't specify), but it sounds like she was afraid her career would be over. Whether the catalyst of this event is the attempt at a grope in 2008, I can't say because it's really vague and she doesn't reveal any further information that could pinpoint the cause of her, um, "brokenness." In any case, if her jumbled timeline is to be trusted, the time she was diagnosed with PTSD was some time after she gave her talk at TAM last year. NOT in 2008.

Frankly, she gets on my nerves. I read her whole post, even though the several melodramatic, emo-stricken moments almost made me sick.

If she wants to call herself a survivor, then grow a fucking backbone and don't say shit like, "There is absolutely no way for a woman to walk up to any man, let alone a prominent man they don’t really know, and say, ‘Pardon me, while you seemed to be drunk, you did this inappropriate thing." :snooty:
I think it was a Thunderf00t video in which he pointed out that insane SJWs had gotten to the Wikipedia page for the differences in strength between men and women or something. Originally, the post pointed out the countless studies that proved the average man is stronger than the average woman, etc. due to differences in bone structure, muscle structure and so on. Then the SJWs made changes to point out that men and women are equal in every single way.

Ape+lust
Pit Art Master
Pit Art Master
Posts: 7364
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:55 pm

Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

#20390

Post by Ape+lust »

Tony Parsehole wrote:@Ape Lust
How the fuck do you get that plasticy sheen on your Photoshopped characters? It's luvverly.
It's a two-step with filters. First pass is something called anisotropic smoothing. It smoothes images without losing much detail, a pretty neat trick. If you want to knock 15 years off Ophelia without her looking like Bruce Jenner, this'll do it.

Then the Relief Light filter, which puts the glossy highlights on. It's fussy, with a lot of controls, sometimes works great, sometimes not so well. I had no trouble with PZ and Zvan, but it hated Vacula. I had to repair him by hand.

In GIMP they're part of a collection of filters called G'MIC (which continues the proud open source tradition of giving everything stupidly inscrutable names).

Southern
.
.
Posts: 3464
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:28 pm
Location: Rio Grande do Sul, Brazil

Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

#20391

Post by Southern »

jet_lagg wrote:
Brive1987 wrote:The anti Harris diatribe, even here, is astounding.

The guys argument does not boil down to "search the brown boys". That is exactly the stupid simplification I criticised RW of.

He specifically says that "ethnicity, gender, age, nationality, dress, travelling companions, behaviour in terminal and other outward appearances" should be used to separate the stream into high, medium and low probability candidates. Ok, have we all got that locked in? Can we pause on that and ponder? Are we controversial yet?

He also says that if you are looking for Moslem terrorists and you have someone that to all appearances (from I guess "God is Great" tee shirts to burqus) - ie if god forbid there are pretty clear markers, then they fit the high profile, not for terrorism but for closer review.

Because no-one here on the street has seen someone and thought "yep they are a Moslem" have they? Of course not.

The efficacy of the overall exercise is a separate point to this obvious requirement to filter on the available, subjective, occasionally cultural, information available. Because without profiling all we have left is stealing pots of honey from ageing Oxford dons.

Assume we will have border security, assume islamic terrorism remains a threat and assume we can't search everybody. Against this I'd be happy to hear where the logic of Harris breaks down. (Remembering that locked in point from above). So far all I've seen are reactions against the dog whistle of racism.
Did you read the actual debate that was linked? If you haven't, then you should, since our arguments have effectively lined up with the ones presented there. If you have read it, please explain exactly what part of the rebuttal to Harris could be summarized as "we shouldn't profile because it's racist".
I just want to state my point again: if the government start profiling people, they will inevitable fuck it up and abuse it, because: a) the State is power-hungry, and the American State is showing to be specially power-hungry; and b) the State are irremediable incompetent, lazy, and has the power to make the lives of innocent people a living hell because of that. Hence my exxagerated example of a stereotypical TSA security agent doing the laziest thing ("anal cavity search on all brown people!").

Southern
.
.
Posts: 3464
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:28 pm
Location: Rio Grande do Sul, Brazil

Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

#20392

Post by Southern »

bhoytony wrote:I'm pretty sure I must be the only person on the internet without PTSD.
And could you please stop flauting your non-PTSD privilege here? I'm literally shaking out of fear and rage and willingness to bite on a dead rat's skull.

Tony Parsehole
.
.
Posts: 6658
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:16 am
Location: Middlesbrough

Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

#20393

Post by Tony Parsehole »

Ape+lust wrote:
Tony Parsehole wrote:@Ape Lust
How the fuck do you get that plasticy sheen on your Photoshopped characters? It's luvverly.
It's a two-step with filters. First pass is something called anisotropic smoothing. It smoothes images without losing much detail, a pretty neat trick. If you want to knock 15 years off Ophelia without her looking like Bruce Jenner, this'll do it.

Then the Relief Light filter, which puts the glossy highlights on. It's fussy, with a lot of controls, sometimes works great, sometimes not so well. I had no trouble with PZ and Zvan, but it hated Vacula. I had to repair him by hand.

In GIMP they're part of a collection of filters called G'MIC (which continues the proud open source tradition of giving everything stupidly inscrutable names).
Cheers mate! I know what you mean by "the proud open source tradition of giving everything stupidly inscrutable names".
Audacity has a bit of that but it is free so, meh.
Hey, if you ever want to P-Shop my avatar into plasticy technicolour life I won't complain....

FrankGrimes
.
.
Posts: 373
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:55 am
Location: Below a Bowling Alley

Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

#20394

Post by FrankGrimes »

Steersman wrote:
Jan Steen wrote:
jet_lagg wrote: <snip>
I'm pretty sure I'm not Dick Carrier, but I've been wrong about things in the past. ;)
<snip>
How can you tell he 'refuted' the criticism when you don't understand the maths?

The following citation from Carriers reply will cause all mathematically literate people to fall from their chairs howling with laughter.
I readily concede that my colloquial discourse will lead to ambiguities that chafe at mathematicians; but this is precisely the kind of shit they need to get over, because they are simply not going to be able to communicate with people in the humanities if they don’t learn how to strategically use ambiguity to increase the intelligibility of the concepts they want to relate.

It’s like Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle: you can have precision with unintelligibility to almost everyone but extremely erudite specialists, or you can have ambiguity but with intelligibility to everyone else. The more ambiguity, the greater the clarity, but the lower the precision. This is a fundamental principle of all nonfiction literature, especially any popularization of scientific or mathematical concepts to a nonscientific, nonmathematical public.
Look, if historians want to use mathematics in their research they will have to learn actual mathematics; not Carriers sloppy, informal stuff that is loaded with ambiguity. There is no royal road to mathematics.
Yes, that is definitely a howler; seems like someone is deep into the post-modernism.

But now that you mention it, I remember, like it was yesterday, how we were discussing the estimable Dr. Carrier who, in another tour de farce, had a new theory about quantum mechanics, and only needed some physicist to work out the details:
Over the years I have been mulling a problem in metaphysics: the ontological mysteries of Quantum Mechanics. I have been developing a theory in this regard (see, for example, The Ontology of Time and my unresolved alternatives in Sense and Goodness without God, pp. 98-99, III.4.1), and now, informed by some recent discoveries and publications in the sciences (and finally a stronger understanding of EPR experiments), I am able to write up a proposal intelligibly enough for an actual physicist to evaluate it.
Errr correct me if I'm wrong but shouldn't he have said "... developing an hypothesis ..."? Might seem like a minor detail but surely it highlights his ignorance?

Tony Parsehole
.
.
Posts: 6658
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:16 am
Location: Middlesbrough

Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

#20395

Post by Tony Parsehole »

Southern wrote:
bhoytony wrote:I'm pretty sure I must be the only person on the internet without PTSD.
And could you please stop flauting your non-PTSD privilege here? I'm literally shaking out of fear and rage and willingness to bite on a dead rat's skull.
Hey Southern, it's pretty obvious that Bhoytony saying he has NO PTSD is clear evidence of blatant PTSD so, please, check your privilege eh?

ConcentratedH2O, OM
.
.
Posts: 6555
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2012 8:51 pm

Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

#20396

Post by ConcentratedH2O, OM »

Tony Parsehole wrote:
ROBOKiTTY wrote:http://i.imgur.com/yoch1dY.png

Seriously? What about actually backing away and not posting at all? How melodramatic can you get? Is this a candlejack parody or someth

Sorry, back, after barely surviving that ordeal. Regardless of whether he's lying, he needs to get help and preferably isolate himself from the rest of the population.
I thought EXACTLY the same. http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/candlejack
As if he just LITERALLY COULD NOT WRITE ANY MORE so had to stop mid-sentence....Then hit "post comment". Yeah right.

Fuck off Ogvorbis you child rapist cunt

I loved the way he didn't capitalize the last two sentences, to show how upset he was.

Southern
.
.
Posts: 3464
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:28 pm
Location: Rio Grande do Sul, Brazil

Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

#20397

Post by Southern »

welch wrote: So what happens if that rating turns out to be of fiscal importance? Well, the answer's obvious. You start inserting meaningless scenes of two women addressing each other by name and talking about how their fucking lawnmower doesn't work, or the car they just bought.

Congratulations, checkbox filled, and it only took five minutes of useless footage.
Better yet: use the two "Betchdel chicks" in a scene with blatant product placement. Now you win twice for the same amount of useless footage!

Tony Parsehole
.
.
Posts: 6658
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:16 am
Location: Middlesbrough

Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

#20398

Post by Tony Parsehole »

ConcentratedH2O, OM wrote:
Tony Parsehole wrote:
ROBOKiTTY wrote:http://i.imgur.com/yoch1dY.png

Seriously? What about actually backing away and not posting at all? How melodramatic can you get? Is this a candlejack parody or someth

Sorry, back, after barely surviving that ordeal. Regardless of whether he's lying, he needs to get help and preferably isolate himself from the rest of the population.
I thought EXACTLY the same. http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/candlejack
As if he just LITERALLY COULD NOT WRITE ANY MORE so had to stop mid-sentence....Then hit "post comment". Yeah right.

Fuck off Ogvorbis you child rapist cunt

I loved the way he didn't capitalize the last two sentences, to show how upset he was.
It was the way that the word , not just the sentence, was spliced in twain that got me right in my feels. I was so upset the I ha

ReneeHendricks
.
.
Posts: 2244
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:48 am
Location: Kent, WA
Contact:

Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

#20399

Post by ReneeHendricks »

Sigh. PTSD from the Internet. Probably the most pathetic thing I've heard people self-diagnose themselves with in a very, very long time. Pssst. There is a super simple cure...










Turn off your fucking computer and walk outside.

DeepInsideYourMind
.
.
Posts: 681
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:43 pm

Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

#20400

Post by DeepInsideYourMind »

Jan Steen wrote: Look, if historians want to use mathematics in their research they will have to learn actual mathematics; not Carriers sloppy, informal stuff that is loaded with ambiguity. There is no royal road to mathematics.

What is even funnier is that the Mathematics Department at most Universities is part of the Philosophy Faculty ... as maths is by it's nature a form of philosophy ... and maths is more than capable of dealing with abstract concepts and arguments

Of course a "historian" like Carrier might not be aware of that .... or he might not understand how tightly the two are linked ... or he might just be talking out of his ass

Tony Parsehole
.
.
Posts: 6658
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:16 am
Location: Middlesbrough

Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

#20401

Post by Tony Parsehole »

Good call on the uncapitalised words in the last sentence. It makes it seem like he was too busy to hold down the Shift Key before BAAAAWING off into the bathroom to cut his forearms.
Top LOL Conc.

Tony Parsehole
.
.
Posts: 6658
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:16 am
Location: Middlesbrough

Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

#20402

Post by Tony Parsehole »

ReneeHendricks wrote:Sigh. PTSD from the Internet. Probably the most pathetic thing I've heard people self-diagnose themselves with in a very, very long time. Pssst. There is a super simple cure...










Turn off your fucking computer and walk outside.
Where's the Retweet button?

Ape+lust
Pit Art Master
Pit Art Master
Posts: 7364
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:55 pm

Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

#20403

Post by Ape+lust »

Tony Parsehole wrote:Cheers mate! I know what you mean by "the proud open source tradition of giving everything stupidly inscrutable names".
Audacity has a bit of that but it is free so, meh.
Hey, if you ever want to P-Shop my avatar into plasticy technicolour life I won't complain....
I'll be glad to, as soon as I'm done cooking. I don't know how well it'll work, the filters depend on contrasts to gauge highlights and ol' Parsehole is kind of flat, but I'll give it a go :D

Tony Parsehole
.
.
Posts: 6658
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:16 am
Location: Middlesbrough

Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

#20404

Post by Tony Parsehole »

Ape+lust wrote:
Tony Parsehole wrote:Cheers mate! I know what you mean by "the proud open source tradition of giving everything stupidly inscrutable names".
Audacity has a bit of that but it is free so, meh.
Hey, if you ever want to P-Shop my avatar into plasticy technicolour life I won't complain....
I'll be glad to, as soon as I'm done cooking. I don't know how well it'll work, the filters depend on contrasts to gauge highlights and ol' Parsehole is kind of flat, but I'll give it a go :D
I tried modifying it and it looked like a 70's Doctor Who special effect so knock yourself out mate! Cheers! (thanks for taking the hint too).

VAXherd
.
.
Posts: 125
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:21 pm

Re: Bleeding from the Bunghole

#20405

Post by VAXherd »

Jan Steen wrote:
jet_lagg wrote:… The fact that [Carrier] took the time to summarize and refute the criticism (rather than just ignoring it or handwaving it away) shows that he takes it seriously. The tone he does it in is irrelevant to me, and I think it should be to you as well. I'm not suggesting everyone run out and become the man's friend. I'm saying his book on bayes theorem is good.
Look, if historians want to use mathematics in their research they will have to learn actual mathematics; not Carriers sloppy, informal stuff that is loaded with ambiguity. There is no royal road to mathematics.
As a social scientist with an interest in statistics, let me add that I am deeply skeptical of using statistics on historical matters.

My biggest concern is uncontrolled sampling biases. Knowing how different kinds of information would have been recorded and preserved is no simple task. And very often "we have no record of that" fits mutually exclusive scenarios.

Mathematically, you also need to beware of the distinction between the equation and the method. I've had more than one long, slow face-palm with clients, where they try to estimate too many parameters with too few data points, and the standard equation crashes. So they work out an equation that doesn't crash, but also (mysteriously) doesn't give useful results. I do try to explain.

Carriers' work doesn't interest me enough to check it personally, but those would be my first concerns.

Locked