Bleeding from the Bunghole

[Service Dog]

Kate Smurthwaite's claim to fame is a video clip-- in which a preacher says "every aborted child is in Heaven",
-- and Smurthwaite replies, "So, wouldn't we be doing them a favor by aborting them?"

The clip went viral on youtube and ebaumsworld.

The people who posted the clip gave it the title "Atheist Bitchslap".

The term Bitchslap quite-clearly derives from violence against women.

Now remember Smurthwaite's principles for proper use of cunt: "the right people" have to use it in a non-insulting manner.

To test drive Smurthwaite's principles in practice, let's look at how she reacted to youtubers and ebaumsworld d00dz associating the term "bitchslap" with her clip:

"I generally think the term "b*tch" is an unpleasant one, but in this case it seems to be being used positively so I don't mind."


Hmm, perhaps "principles" was too strong a word for Kate Smurthaite's... utterances? flights of fancy?... rationalizations.



http://cruellablog.blogspot.com/2011/10 ... ernet.html

[Liesmith]

I noticed with the Chronic Fatigue Syndrome folks-- It was incredible how active they were able to be online, despite their 'inability' to work. Dozens of Tweets a day, active on Facebook and special-interest forums, and look at Svan, able to organize posts full of meticulously screen-capped, uploaded, and organized Tweets from others, with commentary.

But work, no, work is simply too much for her to handle.

Also, ask my partner about my migraines. Ask. Ask how theyve been the past couple of months. You know what I cut back on instead of work? Blogging.

What a fucking loser.

Abbie, don't do that. Chronic Fatigue Syndrome is a very real, very life-damaging ailment that I, myself suffer from. To be exact, I suffer from the rare, extra oppressive, form of the disorder, known as "Chronic Chronic Fatigue Syndrome Syndrome". When I eat an entire pizza, then lay in bed for six hours playing Pokemon Y, I feel an almost irresistible urge to sleep for eighteen hours. You need to stop talking down to sufferers of this syndrome, and instead listen and try to learn.

[ConcentratedH2O, OM]

. Not much point otherwise - unless they're all linguists - cunning or otherwise.

Can people (you) stop using "cunning linguist" as a - there's almost certainly a correct word for it, but let's go with euphemism - for "cunt". It isn't. It's a euphemism for "cunnilingus".

Shove that up your logical arsehole.

[ROBOKiTTY]

People should try not to knock those who are unable to work but able to engage in low-stress activities. People respond differently to different levels of stress. The attitude that you're somehow faking it if you're able to go on a holiday or do hobbyist stuff but not work is very damaging.

[Parody Accountant]

People should try not to knock those who are unable to work but able to engage in low-stress activities. People respond differently to different levels of stress. The attitude that you're somehow faking it if you're able to go on a holiday or do hobbyist stuff but not work is very damaging.

I was going to disagree with a clever joke about chronic fatigue, but I

[Bourne Skeptic]

People should try not to knock those who are unable to work but able to engage in low-stress activities. People respond differently to different levels of stress. The attitude that you're somehow faking it if you're able to go on a holiday or do hobbyist stuff but not work is very damaging.

My holidays are so stressful I need another vacation to recover from the last one and then another to recover from that one. This vicious cycle of vacations and recovery isn't for the faint of heart, but I try to keep my chin up and I endeavor to persevere.

[ConcentratedH2O, OM]

People should try not to knock those who are unable to work but able to engage in low-stress activities. People respond differently to different levels of stress. The attitude that you're somehow faking it if you're able to go on a holiday or do hobbyist stuff but not work is very damaging.

Plus 1. But it's the number of such people who frequent the FfTB ad A+Theism boards, and who claim to be suffering from various non-specific (and often mysteriously undiagnosed) diseases that arouses...suspicion? Questions? Skepticism?

Seems like most of PZ Meyers's commenters are suffering from some sort of disturbance in the miasma, which, conveniently, their doctors are unable to give a name to.

[Aneris]

Ophelia doesn't use the word herself, though she now concedes that some people may use(!) it. Interesting. What happened to splash damage and all that? It boils down to what was suspected anyway: it was a token item to draw battle lines between people who accepted prerogative of interpretation of the Commentariat/SJW and those who didn't. An inverse shibboleth, so to speak.

Ophelia does use 'cunt' now, and credits that to Smurthwaite.

See Ophie's use of "cunt" in her July 15 post and the 2nd comment: http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterflies ... om-insult/

So, like you said, what happened to 'splash damage' and all that?
Smurthwaite's usage of cunt scores several boxes on the SJ bingo card Jen McCreight once posted:

It is possible she does use it somewhere, but not in the examples I've seen so far. Not in your example, either. Or I didn't see it. In the main article she is translating one slang word with another to explain to her audience why it is a problem, and mentions “cunt” because “vagina” wouldn't be the correct counterpart. I understood she is saying: look, here is some sexist politican who says “cunt”, but since this is Ireland, their word is “fanny”. Both of these instances are mentions, not uses. She also discusses language, and is not using the word to insult someone. Finally, she disapproves of the use of such terms in the article, which is also consistent with what I have seen of her so far.

It is correct that in the second comment, another mention, where she explains why typing “cunt” instead of “vagina” would be okay, when it means female genitalia, i.e. synonymous as “vagina”. This indeed suggests that she could have used the word. But since she is describing usage of words, I still maintain it's a mention, or would then suggest that given her near allergic reaction to the word that any ambiguity would be resolved with keeping what is consistent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use%E2%80% ... istinction

[Skep tickle]

I'm not too sure about this cunt stuff, is it ok to call a vagina a cunt; ie if there's no slur.

It's okay, if you're cuntfortable using it that way.

[CaptainFluffyBunny]

To make this much simpler, if Ophilia Benson wants to hear the word "cunt" used less, she should stop being one. Any rationale of "words are good when used in this approved way" is bullshit. I will happily give up using the word when SJW stop using "dick"(and any permutation of that word) asshole, dudebro, mansplaining and any other gendered insult I've forgotten.

While I appreciate wanting to keep the good reputation of the 'pit intact :roll: I do not think we will get there by proscribing what language is acceptable for usage. Incorrect or gratuitous use of the word will identify those that are just in it for the lulz, and proper usage will be found in whatever context it naturally inhabits, not by "proper" usage as defined by a bunch of cunts.

[Skep tickle]

Anatomically, isn't "cunt" usually used to refer to the vulva + vagina, not solely one or the other? That's been my impression. *shrug* Seems like a useful term, for that reason alone.

[Steersman]

Ophelia doesn't use the word herself, though she now concedes that some people may use(!) it. Interesting. What happened to splash damage and all that? It boils down to what was suspected anyway: it was a token item to draw battle lines between people who accepted prerogative of interpretation of the Commentariat/SJW and those who didn't. An inverse shibboleth, so to speak.

Ophelia does use 'cunt' now, and credits that to Smurthwaite.

See Ophie's use of "cunt" in her July 15 post and the 2nd comment: http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterflies ... om-insult/

So, like you said, what happened to 'splash damage' and all that?
Smurthwaite's usage of cunt scores several boxes on the SJ bingo card Jen McCreight once posted:

It is possible she does use it somewhere, but not in the examples I've seen so far. Not in your example, either. Or I didn't see it. In the main article she is translating one slang word with another to explain to her audience why it is a problem, and mentions “cunt” because “vagina” wouldn't be the correct counterpart. I understood she is saying: look, here is some sexist politican who says “cunt”, but since this is Ireland, their word is “fanny”. Both of these instances are mentions, not uses. She also discusses language, and is not using the word to insult someone. Finally, she disapproves of the use of such terms in the article, which is also consistent with what I have seen of her so far.

It is correct that in the second comment, another mention, where she explains why typing “cunt” instead of “vagina” would be okay, when it means female genitalia, i.e. synonymous as “vagina”. This indeed suggests that she could have used the word. But since she is describing usage of words, I still maintain it's a mention, or would then suggest that given her near allergic reaction to the word that any ambiguity would be resolved with keeping what is consistent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use%E2%80% ... istinction

In one of her pre-FftB posts she mentions some woman describing her bicycle seat as a “cunt-buster”. Which I think she thought was acceptable.

And I think you’re correct that “she disapproves of the use of such terms in the article, which is also consistent with what I have seen of her so far”. For instance, her later comment:

I suppose I was adopting Kate Smurthwaite’s practice (and I’m sure she’s not the only one) of using the word as the normal word for the female genitalia, as opposed to as an epithet.

Although I suppose it does highlight the fact that that word – probably with many if not most – can be used with many different connotations – some of them pejorative, and some of them not. But I also suppose that it is an encouraging sign that some in the benighted environs of FftB-land are beginning to see the light on the question.

However, I wonder, as someone here suggested, how that will square with the claims of “splash damage” – one of the more egregious claims to come out of that neck of the woods. Pretty ridiculous, and not terribly skeptical, to think that just because one shares some attribute with some other individual who is targeted with an insult which uses a pejorative connotation of that attribute that therefore one has to feel insulted as well.

[Steersman]

To make this much simpler, if Ophilia Benson wants to hear the word "cunt" used less, she should stop being one. Any rationale of "words are good when used in this approved way" is bullshit. I will happily give up using the word when SJW stop using "dick"(and any permutation of that word) asshole, dudebro, mansplaining and any other gendered insult I've forgotten.

While I appreciate wanting to keep the good reputation of the 'pit intact :roll: I do not think we will get there by proscribing what language is acceptable for usage. Incorrect or gratuitous use of the word will identify those that are just in it for the lulz, and proper usage will be found in whatever context it naturally inhabits, not by "proper" usage as defined by a bunch of cunts.

I can sympathize. However, while “Reason” is a great thing, it seems that it can also be used merely to support and buttress highly questionable biases and bigotries. As Hume put it, “`Tis not contrary to reason to prefer the destruction of the whole world to the scratching of my finger.”

And relative to the question of epithets, logically and analogously speaking, one has to give some consideration to Benson’s question as to why there is such a disparity in the use of various epithets. Why, for instance, aren’t we using “nigger” more frequently, of say Obama and Neil deGrasse Tyson?

One might reasonably ask what are the reasons for that disparity, what are the different assumptions and values that undergird the different responses and behaviours.

[Steersman]

People should try not to knock those who are unable to work but able to engage in low-stress activities. People respond differently to different levels of stress. The attitude that you're somehow faking it if you're able to go on a holiday or do hobbyist stuff but not work is very damaging.

I was going to disagree with a clever joke about chronic fatigue, but I

... fell asleep? ;-)

[Steersman]

. Not much point otherwise - unless they're all linguists - cunning or otherwise.

Can people (you) stop using "cunning linguist" as a - there's almost certainly a correct word for it, but let's go with euphemism - for "cunt". It isn't. It's a euphemism for "cunnilingus". ...

No. For one thing, I was trying to suggest, with possibly too much verbiage for the impatient, that if a bunch of linguists – cunning or otherwise – were discussing the word – presumably, their stock-in-trade, their claims to fame if not fortune – then that would have been a case of them engaging, presumably, in mentioning the word, rather than using it as either an epithet or as a descriptive term.

And for another, it isn’t, entirely in any case, a euphemism, but a pun. Logically speaking, of course.

[CaptainFluffyBunny]

To make this much simpler, if Ophilia Benson wants to hear the word "cunt" used less, she should stop being one. Any rationale of "words are good when used in this approved way" is bullshit. I will happily give up using the word when SJW stop using "dick"(and any permutation of that word) asshole, dudebro, mansplaining and any other gendered insult I've forgotten.

While I appreciate wanting to keep the good reputation of the 'pit intact :roll: I do not think we will get there by proscribing what language is acceptable for usage. Incorrect or gratuitous use of the word will identify those that are just in it for the lulz, and proper usage will be found in whatever context it naturally inhabits, not by "proper" usage as defined by a bunch of cunts.

I can sympathize. However, while “Reason” is a great thing, it seems that it can also be used merely to support and buttress highly questionable biases and bigotries. As Hume put it, “`Tis not contrary to reason to prefer the destruction of the whole world to the scratching of my finger.”

And relative to the question of epithets, logically and analogously speaking, one has to give some consideration to Benson’s question as to why there is such a disparity in the use of various epithets. Why, for instance, aren’t we using “nigger” more frequently, of say Obama and Neil deGrasse Tyson?

One might reasonably ask what are the reasons for that disparity, what are the different assumptions and values that undergird the different responses and behaviours.

The use of the word "nigger" is simply not at all appropriate in these instances. I might use the word when I'm in the certain company of dark-skinned individuals, others I would not. I am not sure it is an apt analogy-Speaking for myself, I find that while I hardly ever used the word cunt before, I now find it indispensable because it is so rigidly proscribed in SJWspeak. Perhaps I want to illustrate that gendered insults are no fun when you are on the receiving end of said insults. Maybe it's used because we are told it is wrong to use it certain ways, and like being mischievous and child-like (or childish) so we latch on to it to show our rebellion. Whatever the motivation, the object is clear-some people will not bow down to demands made by bloviating ideologues. Doing so seems to be surrendering the argument to them when the whole of their argument boils down to "it's okay when we do it."

[Steersman]

http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterflies ... -too-many/
http://i.imgur.com/S2Jnb00.jpg[/quote]

Wait, what? Liberal use of the word "cunt" in a derogatory fashion to "belittle women and insult men" is only a healthy reaction when it's used in the right context by the right people?

What the fuck is she talking about?

<snip>
But I’ll also suggest that she might have a point or two – calling one or two women cunts, or one of two men pricks, or one or two black people niggers, might be excused on the basis of simply insulting someone – for a good reason or not. More frequent use of the words is likely to suggest some sexism or racism. IMHO.

If Benson is talking about "use-mention", then she picked a bad example. Perhaps you are also putting words in her mouth. I would suggest that when it comes to Benson she herself probably doesn't have a clear idea of what her muddled mewlings actually mean.

Is David Cameron a cunt? Is he? Look, I love the c-word too but can we stop using it as the worst of all possible insults? Cunts are marvellous, trust me, I've got one. And despite my best efforts my cunt has never closed down the NHS

Always possible that I’m doing that – putting words in her mouth. Why I look for and try to quote what people actually say. And, as mentioned, her words strongly suggest she differentiates between using the word as an eptithet and as a description for female genitalia.

And even Smurthwaite is doing that, as that comment of Benson’s I just finished quoting emphasizes. I think it important to ask ourselves why “cunt” is – according to any number of sources, including the New Zealand broadcasting corporation, and as Smurtwaite put it – “the worst of all possible insults”.

Are women – generally and statistically speaking – so delicate as to be shocked – yea, even to the very fibre of their being – into catatonia at being confronted, through the magic of words, with the image of their genitalia? Does that “vulnernability” give free rein for many men to be dickheads about using the word? Are there simply more “cunts” than “pricks”? Or than “niggers”? Inquiring minds and all that.

[Steersman]

<snip>
And relative to the question of epithets, logically and analogously speaking, one has to give some consideration to Benson’s question as to why there is such a disparity in the use of various epithets. Why, for instance, aren’t we using “nigger” more frequently, of say Obama and Neil deGrasse Tyson?

One might reasonably ask what are the reasons for that disparity, what are the different assumptions and values that undergird the different responses and behaviours.

The use of the word "nigger" is simply not at all appropriate in these instances. I might use the word when I'm in the certain company of dark-skinned individuals, others I would not. I am not sure it is an apt analogy-Speaking for myself, I find that while I hardly ever used the word cunt before, I now find it indispensable because it is so rigidly proscribed in SJWspeak. Perhaps I want to illustrate that gendered insults are no fun when you are on the receiving end of said insults. Maybe it's used because we are told it is wrong to use it certain ways, and like being mischievous and child-like (or childish) so we latch on to it to show our rebellion. Whatever the motivation, the object is clear-some people will not bow down to demands made by bloviating ideologues. Doing so seems to be surrendering the argument to them when the whole of their argument boils down to "it's okay when we do it."

But you haven’t actually proven that Benson in particular is using or has actually used the word as an insult. Rather questionable to be hanging your argument on such a tenuous “beef”. Rather like “guilty until proven innocent”.

[CaptainFluffyBunny]

Wait, what? Liberal use of the word "cunt" in a derogatory fashion to "belittle women and insult men" is only a healthy reaction when it's used in the right context by the right people?

What the fuck is she talking about?

<snip>
But I’ll also suggest that she might have a point or two – calling one or two women cunts, or one of two men pricks, or one or two black people niggers, might be excused on the basis of simply insulting someone – for a good reason or not. More frequent use of the words is likely to suggest some sexism or racism. IMHO.[/quote]
If Benson is talking about "use-mention", then she picked a bad example. Perhaps you are also putting words in her mouth. I would suggest that when it comes to Benson she herself probably doesn't have a clear idea of what her muddled mewlings actually mean.

Is David Cameron a cunt? Is he? Look, I love the c-word too but can we stop using it as the worst of all possible insults? Cunts are marvellous, trust me, I've got one. And despite my best efforts my cunt has never closed down the NHS

[/quote]
Always possible that I’m doing that – putting words in her mouth. Why I look for and try to quote what people actually say. And, as mentioned, her words strongly suggest she differentiates between using the word as an eptithet and as a description for female genitalia.

And even Smurthwaite is doing that, as that comment of Benson’s I just finished quoting emphasizes. I think it important to ask ourselves why “cunt” is – according to any number of sources, including the New Zealand broadcasting corporation, and as Smurtwaite put it – “the worst of all possible insults”.

Are women – generally and statistically speaking – so delicate as to be shocked – yea, even to the very fibre of their being – into catatonia at being confronted, through the magic of words, with the image of their genitalia? Does that “vulnernability” give free rein for many men to be dickheads about using the word? Are there simply more “cunts” than “pricks”? Or than “niggers”? Inquiring minds and all that.[/quote]
Steersman, I can't help thinking you're making this more complicated than it needs to be. Yes, she explained that she was using the word because she had to use the word to talk about the word. The other words-prick, etc, SJW use all the time, presumably because males have so much privilege that it's fine to use gendered insults against them. The problem is simple-they are spending all their time and energy being offended by language, the poor, delicate dears, that they have no time for real problems. Their objection to the word cunt is an easy red herring that they can dangle to derail arguments, to dismiss people and to generally get their knickers in a knot. Righteous anger is their bread and butter. It reinforces the stereotype of the delicate, fainting-couch woman, too delicate to hear such awful, gendered slurs.

I absolutely guarantee that if everybody in the pit stopped using the word, even if the world over stopped using the word, they would find something else, another word, phrase or stern look that would offend them just as much. It is the side show,the distraction so they don't have to answer the very real problems and holes in their positions and arguments. Let them latch onto that objection. Their hypocrisy in objecting to that word while creating new derogatory terms for men and other out-group folk serve as a warning sign to those self-aware enough to catch the rank stench of hypocrisy.

[CaptainFluffyBunny]

<snip>
And relative to the question of epithets, logically and analogously speaking, one has to give some consideration to Benson’s question as to why there is such a disparity in the use of various epithets. Why, for instance, aren’t we using “nigger” more frequently, of say Obama and Neil deGrasse Tyson?

One might reasonably ask what are the reasons for that disparity, what are the different assumptions and values that undergird the different responses and behaviours.

The use of the word "nigger" is simply not at all appropriate in these instances. I might use the word when I'm in the certain company of dark-skinned individuals, others I would not. I am not sure it is an apt analogy-Speaking for myself, I find that while I hardly ever used the word cunt before, I now find it indispensable because it is so rigidly proscribed in SJWspeak. Perhaps I want to illustrate that gendered insults are no fun when you are on the receiving end of said insults. Maybe it's used because we are told it is wrong to use it certain ways, and like being mischievous and child-like (or childish) so we latch on to it to show our rebellion. Whatever the motivation, the object is clear-some people will not bow down to demands made by bloviating ideologues. Doing so seems to be surrendering the argument to them when the whole of their argument boils down to "it's okay when we do it."

But you haven’t actually proven that Benson in particular is using or has actually used the word as an insult. Rather questionable to be hanging your argument on such a tenuous “beef”. Rather like “guilty until proven innocent”.

I don't care if she's using it as in insult or not-often an insult is in the eye of the beholder. I really, absolutely do not care. She uses the word, we use the word. My point is that gendered slurs are either wrong, and all sides disarm, or we simply decide to pay attention to the substance of what somebody has to say, rather than get bogged down in parsing fucking insults. Really, that's all it is.

[CaptainFluffyBunny]

And while I'm ranting (semi-coherently, I hope) why do we get bogged down in these side-show wonders? There are serious problems in making a world run according to their definition of privilege, their idea of social justice and first-world problems and we're deciding how to phrase things so that the permanently fragile and damaged don't get their little feelings hurt?

They of SkepChuck and FFTB loves their little insults. I don't mind mine a bit. Perhaps this is our common ground. They insult, we insult back, but much better (no thanks to me, but kudos to our resident 'shop masters, movie dubbers and general kick-ass (cunt?) wits.) Maybe this, like xtian mockery will work to show them the error of their ways. Logic and reason sure aren't working any wonders.

[Dick Strawkins]

It is possible she does use it somewhere, but not in the examples I've seen so far. Not in your example, either. Or I didn't see it. In the main article she is translating one slang word with another to explain to her audience why it is a problem, and mentions “cunt” because “vagina” wouldn't be the correct counterpart. I understood she is saying: look, here is some sexist politican who says “cunt”, but since this is Ireland, their word is “fanny”. Both of these instances are mentions, not uses. She also discusses language, and is not using the word to insult someone. Finally, she disapproves of the use of such terms in the article, which is also consistent with what I have seen of her so far.

It is correct that in the second comment, another mention, where she explains why typing “cunt” instead of “vagina” would be okay, when it means female genitalia, i.e. synonymous as “vagina”. This indeed suggests that she could have used the word. But since she is describing usage of words, I still maintain it's a mention, or would then suggest that given her near allergic reaction to the word that any ambiguity would be resolved with keeping what is consistent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use%E2%80% ... istinction

I interpret Ophelia's actions to mean that the word "cunt" is acceptable as a slang term for vagina, but it is not acceptable as a pejorative due to it's historical useage as a word to describe women in general as being less than human (in the same way the word nigger was used as a word for black people.) In addition she dislikes the useage of words signifying the vagina as insults, as it equates the vagina as an inherently bad thing.

That, at least, is my take on her thinking on the matter.
She is not treating 'cunt' as a magic word that you cannot or should not use in any circumstance (for example the way US prime time news or discussion shows treat the word nigger - they cannot even mention it even when it is relevant, for example when someone is accused of using it in a racist way the presenter will always change the word to "the N word".)
In line with her thinking, the use of "cunt" as an insult will ALWAYS be wrong and although it's use against a woman is worse, it is still misogynistic if you are using the insult against a man - indeed it will always be misogynistic (vaginas being equated with something you use as an insult.)

I don't find her views incoherent or even inconsistent with her behavior. The trouble is she behaves as if her reasoning is self-evident, unquestionable, and shared by feminists the world over.
But that is not the case.
A prime example of this problem is to highlight the UK feminist and SJW extraordinaire Laurie Penny's thoughts on the use of the word 'cunt'

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/lauri ... -cunt-hint

It is, according to Germaine Greer, the one word in the English language that retains the power to shock. This week, after the third BBC newsman in two months – this time the revered Jeremy Paxman – dropped the c-bomb on live television, it appears that the world's best-respected broadcasting operation is in the grip of a collective and extremely specific form of Tourette's syndrome, whereby presenters can't help but slip the worst word of all into casual conversation. One is reminded of those playground horror stories of cursed words, infectious words that, once read or overheard, niggle away in the forefront of your brain until, like poison, you're forced to spit them out, with deadly consequences. But what – ultimately – is so terribly offensive about the word "cunt"?

The word shocks because what it signifies is still considered shocking. Francis Grose's 1785 A Classical Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue defines "cunt" quite simply as "a nasty name for a nasty thing". All sorts of people have a problem with 'cunt', even those who normally considerthemselves progressive and enlightened: last week, for example, I was invited to speak at a public meeting where I happened to use the word in reference to a member of the audience.

Horrified silence fell in this roomful of hardened activists, followed a few seconds later by nervously appreciative laughter. The incident later exploded on the internet, with some complaining that I had had no right to use such a provocative and shocking word at a meeting; that the word is too aggressive, too graphic. These, for context, are people who are currently cheerleading calls for a general strike and/or the overthrow of the government, but they still consider a young woman saying "cunt" in public a little too, too much.

What is it about that word? Why, in a world of 24-hour porn channels, a world with Rihanna's "Rude Boy" playing on the radio and junior pole-dancing kits sold in Tesco, is the word "cunt" still so shocking? It's a perfectly nice little word, a word with 800 years of history; a word used by Chaucer and by Shakespeare. It's the only word we have to describe the female genitalia that is neither mawkish, nor medical, nor a function of pornography. Semantically, it serves the same function as "dick" or "prick" – a signifier for a sexual organ which can also be used as a descriptor or insult, a word that is not passive, but active, even aggressive.

There are no other truly empowering words for the female genitalia. 'Pussy' is nastily diminutive, as if every woman had a tame and purring pet between her legs, while the medical descriptor "vagina" refers only to a part of the organ, as if women's sexuality were nothing more than a wet hole, or "sheath" in the Latin. Cunt, meanwhile, is a word for the whole thing, a wholesome word, an earthy, dank and lusty word with the merest hint of horny threat. Cunt. It's fantastically difficult to pronounce without baring the teeth.

It is this kind of female sexuality – active, adult female sexuality – that still has the power to horrify even the most forward-thinking logophile. Despite occasional attempts by feminists such as Eve Ensler to "reclaim" the word cunt as the powerful, vital, visceral sexual signifier that it is, the taboo seems only to have become stronger. Media officials avoid it with the superstitious revulsion once reserved for evil-eye words, as if even pronouncing "cunt" might somehow conjure one into existence. The BBC wouldn't be in half so much trouble if James Naughtie had called Jeremy Hunt MP a "prick" or a "wanker" or a "cold-blooded Tory fucker".

For me, "cunt" is, and will always be, a word of power, whether it denotes my own genitals or any obstreperous comrades in the vicinity. The first time I ever used it, I was 12 years old, and being hounded by a group of sixth-form boys who just loved to corner me on the stairs and make hilarious sexy comments. One day, one of them decided it would be funny to pick me up by the waist and shake me. I spat out the words "put me down, you utter cunt", and the boy was so shocked that he dropped me instantly.

Ever since then, "cunt" has been a cherished part of my lexical armour. I use it liberally: in conversation, in the bedroom, and in debates. I only wish I could hear more women saying it, more of us reclaiming "cunt" as a word of sexual potency and common discourse rather than a dirty, forbidden word. If the BBC continues its oily pattern of vulgar logorrhoea, I'd like to hear Julia Bradbury saying it on Countryfile. I'd like to hear Kirsty Young saying it on Desert Island Discs.

Men have so many words that they can use to hint at their own sexual power, but we have just the one, and it's still the worst word you can say on the telly. Let's all get over ourselves about "cunt". Let's use it and love it.

For someone who grew up in the British Isles/Australia/New Zealand there is probably nothing shocking in what Penny says in that article.
Despite all the raging denials of the US based SJW contingent on B and W and Pharyngula, there IS a regional meaning associated with the word 'cunt' that varies between the English speaking nations, and in the case of the aformentioned places the word 'cunt' is not viewed as inherently misogynistic or associated with an insult only against women (and, indeed, is not neccessarily an insult at all in a lot of circumstances.)

As for Ophelias idea that there is a historical use of cunt that is analagous to the use of the word 'nigger', I have to disagree.
I think this history exists only in her own mind.
It reminds me of Hugo Schwyzer stating that the pejorative, "asshole", was homophobic - there is no real evidential basis for either claim.

In contrast the term nigger was in widespread use as a term for black people in the US during a time period when they were either in slavery or were not given equal rights with white people, for example in 'Huckleberry Finn' or the works of Enid Blyton:
http://wiki.ncac.org/images/0/08/Gollywog3.jpg

(The names of the characters in this childrens story were Golly, Woggy and Nigger!)

[Phil_Giordana_FCD]

Oh, so I go to sleep, I wake up, and we're back to the 'cunt' debate. Great...

[Guest]

Oh, so I go to sleep, I wake up, and we're back to the 'cunt' debate. Great...

It's actually one of the more interesting debates I've seen here, and way better than putting down Linus with hir major malfunction.

[Phil_Giordana_FCD]

Oh, so I go to sleep, I wake up, and we're back to the 'cunt' debate. Great...

It's actually one of the more interesting debates I've seen here, and way better than putting down Linus with hir major malfunction.

Sure, sure, but this debate has been had on here and at Abbie's place (go check Scented Nectar's archives) numerous times. There seems to be some kind of cultural barrier WRT the use of the word that is very hard to break. The same arguments are made everytime, and everytime we fail to reach an agreement. It's tedious and repetitive. Con!

[Skep tickle]

Oh, so I go to sleep, I wake up, and we're back to the 'cunt' debate. Great...

It's actually one of the more interesting debates I've seen here, and way better than putting down Linus with hir major malfunction.

Phil's probably referring to it being a recurring debate/discussion here over the 1.25 years.

[TheMan]

Is today Ground hog day?

[DownThunder]

What debate? Fuken Straya carnts. They may take our lives but they will never take cunt.

[Brive1987]

People should try not to knock those who are unable to work but able to engage in low-stress activities. People respond differently to different levels of stress. The attitude that you're somehow faking it if you're able to go on a holiday or do hobbyist stuff but not work is very damaging.

Poe?

[Phil_Giordana_FCD]

[youtube]F4AchHTN-XQ[/youtube]

[Phil_Giordana_FCD]

[youtube]uRz8FWPUmpI[/youtube]

[Brive1987]

To make this much simpler, if Ophilia Benson wants to hear the word "cunt" used less, she should stop being one. Any rationale of "words are good when used in this approved way" is bullshit. I will happily give up using the word when SJW stop using "dick"(and any permutation of that word) asshole, dudebro, mansplaining and any other gendered insult I've forgotten.

While I appreciate wanting to keep the good reputation of the 'pit intact :roll: I do not think we will get there by proscribing what language is acceptable for usage. Incorrect or gratuitous use of the word will identify those that are just in it for the lulz, and proper usage will be found in whatever context it naturally inhabits, not by "proper" usage as defined by a bunch of cunts.

I can sympathize. However, while “Reason” is a great thing, it seems that it can also be used merely to support and buttress highly questionable biases and bigotries. As Hume put it, “`Tis not contrary to reason to prefer the destruction of the whole world to the scratching of my finger.”

And relative to the question of epithets, logically and analogously speaking, one has to give some consideration to Benson’s question as to why there is such a disparity in the use of various epithets. Why, for instance, aren’t we using “nigger” more frequently, of say Obama and Neil deGrasse Tyson?

One might reasonably ask what are the reasons for that disparity, what are the different assumptions and values that undergird the different responses and behaviours.

Translated = "if the words were ok more people would use them. They don't so they're not." :doh:

[Brive1987]

The use of the word cunt is distilled misogyny unless a woman says it.

[Phil_Giordana_FCD]

The use of the word cunt is distilled misogyny unless a woman says it.

Wrong, very wrong, even. "Unless a woman we like/we approve of says it". Point in case: most women who post here at the Pit.

[DownThunder]

Any attempt to control the ways of my people is racist cultural imperialism.

[Brive1987]

The use of the word cunt is distilled misogyny unless a woman says it.

Wrong, very wrong, even. "Unless a woman we like/we approve of says it". Point in case: most women who post here at the Pit.

We all know chill girls aren't "real women".

[Steersman]

<snip>
And relative to the question of epithets, logically and analogously speaking, one has to give some consideration to Benson’s question as to why there is such a disparity in the use of various epithets. Why, for instance, aren’t we using “nigger” more frequently, of say Obama and Neil deGrasse Tyson?

One might reasonably ask what are the reasons for that disparity, what are the different assumptions and values that undergird the different responses and behaviours.

Translated = "if the words were ok more people would use them. They don't so they're not." :doh:

Such words tend to have their power because people use them in hushed tones and not around “the children!!!”. Bringing them out tends to “pull their fangs”. You might be interested in reading Lenny Bruce’s take on it, a portion of which is this:

Are there any niggers here tonight? Could you turn on the house lights, please, and could the waiters and waitresses just stop serving, just for a second? And turn off this spot. Now what did he say? "Are there any niggers here tonight?" I know there's one nigger, because I see him back there working. Let's see, there's two niggers. And between those two niggers sits a kyke. And there's another kyke— that's two kykes and three niggers. And there's a spic. Right? Hmm? There's another spic. Ooh, there's a wop; there's a polack; and, oh, a couple of greaseballs. And there's three lace-curtain Irish micks. ….

[Steersman]

The use of the word cunt is distilled misogyny unless a woman says it.

Sometimes it is, and sometimes it isn't. Likewise with "nigger". All sorts of problems develop because people are, I think, not particularly careful about qualifying the circumstances in which the words are used.

PZ is the guy who wants to characterize virtually all "anti-feminists" as having the name "Marc Lepine" - stereotyping and demagoguery writ large. Seems "we" might not want to follow in those particular footsteps.

[Steersman]

Oh, so I go to sleep, I wake up, and we're back to the 'cunt' debate. Great...

It's actually one of the more interesting debates I've seen here, and way better than putting down Linus with hir major malfunction.

Sure, sure, but this debate has been had on here and at Abbie's place (go check Scented Nectar's archives) numerous times. There seems to be some kind of cultural barrier WRT the use of the word that is very hard to break. The same arguments are made everytime, and everytime we fail to reach an agreement. It's tedious and repetitive. Con!

And no doubt, numerous teachers - from "time immemorial" have spoon-fed the same "facts" into a great many different mouths. Seems you're not really taking note of similar changes in the audience.

[Brive1987]

<snip>
And relative to the question of epithets, logically and analogously speaking, one has to give some consideration to Benson’s question as to why there is such a disparity in the use of various epithets. Why, for instance, aren’t we using “nigger” more frequently, of say Obama and Neil deGrasse Tyson?

One might reasonably ask what are the reasons for that disparity, what are the different assumptions and values that undergird the different responses and behaviours.

Translated = "if the words were ok more people would use them. They don't so they're not." :doh:

Such words tend to have their power because people use them in hushed tones and not around “the children!!!”. Bringing them out tends to “pull their fangs”. You might be interested in reading Lenny Bruce’s take on it, a portion of which is this:

Are there any niggers here tonight? Could you turn on the house lights, please, and could the waiters and waitresses just stop serving, just for a second? And turn off this spot. Now what did he say? "Are there any niggers here tonight?" I know there's one nigger, because I see him back there working. Let's see, there's two niggers. And between those two niggers sits a kyke. And there's another kyke— that's two kykes and three niggers. And there's a spic. Right? Hmm? There's another spic. Ooh, there's a wop; there's a polack; and, oh, a couple of greaseballs. And there's three lace-curtain Irish micks. ….

I agree. I was just poking good natured fun at your style :)

Pink Floyd also comes to mind, though it doesn't really fit:

Are there any queers in the theater tonight?
Get them up against the wall!
There's one in the spotlight, he don't look right to me,
Get him up against the wall!
That one looks Jewish!
And that one's a coon!
Who let all of this riff-raff into the room?
There's one smoking a joint,
And another with spots!
If I had my way,
I'd have all of you shot!

[Steersman]

\<snip>
But you haven’t actually proven that Benson in particular is using or has actually used the word as an insult. Rather questionable to be hanging your argument on such a tenuous “beef”. Rather like “guilty until proven innocent”.

I don't care if she's using it as in insult or not-often an insult is in the eye of the beholder. I really, absolutely do not care. She uses the word, we use the word. My point is that gendered slurs are either wrong, and all sides disarm, or we simply decide to pay attention to the substance of what somebody has to say, rather than get bogged down in parsing fucking insults. Really, that's all it is.

Well then I think that that is unmitigated horseshit. You don’t care whether someone you’re accusing of something actually committed the crime or not?

You might want to take a close look at that “use-mention” article Aneris referred to.

[Dick Strawkins]

If the Shermer case finally comes to trial...

http://i.imgur.com/IajNV9L.jpg

[Phil_Giordana_FCD]

Ah! Inherit the Wind. Grea

[Phil_Giordana_FCD]

...t movie.

[Brive1987]

The use of the word cunt is distilled misogyny unless a woman says it.

Sometimes it is, and sometimes it isn't. Likewise with "nigger". All sorts of problems develop because people are, I think, not particularly careful about qualifying the circumstances in which the words are used.

PZ is the guy who wants to characterize virtually all "anti-feminists" as having the name "Marc Lepine" - stereotyping and demagoguery writ large. Seems "we" might not want to follow in those particular footsteps.

I don't really *think* the use of the word cunt is distilled misogyny. Obviously context is all.

I was however mocking the SJW world view which provides men limited leeway. I don't think I'm allowing my inner nuance to come out in my posts. :(

[Steersman]

If the Shermer case finally comes to trial...

http://i.imgur.com/IajNV9L.jpg

:lol: :clap: Bravo!

He that troubleth his own house shall inherit the wind:
and the fool shall be servant to the wise of heart.

[James Caruthers]

The use of the word cunt is distilled misogyny unless a woman says it.

What is the distillation process like? Does it involve a lot of cuntkicks? Maybe some Freeze Peach?

[Steersman]

The use of the word cunt is distilled misogyny unless a woman says it.

Sometimes it is, and sometimes it isn't. Likewise with "nigger". All sorts of problems develop because people are, I think, not particularly careful about qualifying the circumstances in which the words are used.

PZ is the guy who wants to characterize virtually all "anti-feminists" as having the name "Marc Lepine" - stereotyping and demagoguery writ large. Seems "we" might not want to follow in those particular footsteps.

I don't really *think* the use of the word cunt is distilled misogyny. Obviously context is all.

I was however mocking the SJW world view which provides men limited leeway. I don't think I'm allowing my inner nuance to come out in my posts. :(

I think that that is a major part of the problem with these discussions - misinterpretations left, right and center. Inter-galactic wars have started for less egregious reasons .... ;-)

[Brive1987]

The use of the word cunt is distilled misogyny unless a woman says it.

What is the distillation process like? Does it involve a lot of cuntkicks? Maybe some Freeze Peach?

Nothing so esoteric. Simply mix:

frogs and snails
And puppy-dogs' tails,

That's what misogyny is made of.

[CaptainFluffyBunny]

\<snip>
But you haven’t actually proven that Benson in particular is using or has actually used the word as an insult. Rather questionable to be hanging your argument on such a tenuous “beef”. Rather like “guilty until proven innocent”.

I don't care if she's using it as in insult or not-often an insult is in the eye of the beholder. I really, absolutely do not care. She uses the word, we use the word. My point is that gendered slurs are either wrong, and all sides disarm, or we simply decide to pay attention to the substance of what somebody has to say, rather than get bogged down in parsing fucking insults. Really, that's all it is.

Well then I think that that is unmitigated horseshit. You don’t care whether someone you’re accusing of something actually committed the crime or not?

You might want to take a close look at that “use-mention” article Aneris referred to.

I did look at that use-mention. It has absolutely no bearing on what I am saying. What am I actually accusing somebody of? Telling me the proper usage of a word vs using the word as an insult? Did I get that wrong? Let me reiterate-her idea of usage of "cunt" is hardly worldwide, nor do I actually have to care if it is. I will not have the proper usage of a word dictated to me by a drama-blogger that is so deep in hypocrisy and censorship that even her minions seem to have a hard time understanding her.

She uses the word the way she wants to. I use the word the way I want to. She may believe hers is the only correct usage. You may agree with her. Instead of telling me that I'm accusing her of something (using cunt as an insult) tell me why her usage is the only correct usage.

You see, I'm one of those damn fool idiots that believes nobody has a right to tell me that I may only use a word in certain ways. I will use it exactly as I please. She may use the word as she pleases. You may use the word as you please. Really. I am not, not at all, accusing her of anything except insinuating that her idea of the word cunt is the only correct one.

You are making this far too difficult. I accuse her of no crime. But if the word "cunt" is used, I will use at as I see fit, not bend to her or your idea of what is proper usage. I am hoping you see my cuntastic point here.

And again, this is all a side-show, a focus for the laser-like anger of SJW everywhere, and apparently one that has been done to death here. Those of you glazing over at this exchange (which includes meself) please pardon this newbie for rising to the cunt bait.

[Brive1987]

Fluffybuns - you need to check your postmodern privilege

[Za-zen]

[youtube]d-SUhJT3g1c[/youtube]

[Za-zen]

[youtube]NgRtFZsUX7w[/youtube]

[CaptainFluffyBunny]

Crimeny, I have that exact same ukulele.

[CaptainFluffyBunny]

Fluffybuns - you need to check your postmodern privilege

I am afraid that if I do, you will invite me to coffee. Why must you sexualize my 'nym?

[Brive1987]

Fluffybuns - you need to check your postmodern privilege

I am afraid that if I do, you will invite me to coffee. Why must you sexualize my 'nym?

It's was a diminutive which placed me in a position of power. See how you instantly feared rape? QED.

[James Caruthers]

The use of the word cunt is distilled misogyny unless a woman says it.

What is the distillation process like? Does it involve a lot of cuntkicks? Maybe some Freeze Peach?

Nothing so esoteric. Simply mix:

frogs and snails
And puppy-dogs' tails,

That's what misogyny is made of.

[youtube]-pS5ALRqdb4[/youtube]
[youtube]kKW5qz_9NVo[/youtube]
It makes sense when you think of men as toilets.

[Brive1987]

The use of the word cunt is distilled misogyny unless a woman says it.

What is the distillation process like? Does it involve a lot of cuntkicks? Maybe some Freeze Peach?

[youtube]-pS5ALRqdb4[/youtube]
[youtube]kKW5qz_9NVo[/youtube]



Cool, kinda the Doors meet Violent Femmes? Or is that the bourbon talking (again)?

[Steersman]

<snip>
Well then I think that that is unmitigated horseshit. You don’t care whether someone you’re accusing of something actually committed the crime or not?

You might want to take a close look at that “use-mention” article Aneris referred to.

I did look at that use-mention. It has absolutely no bearing on what I am saying. What am I actually accusing somebody of?

Doesn’t look like it was a close one. Seems to me that that is the whole ball of wax, the entire crux of the matter. Take a look again at what you said:

Whatever the motivation, the object is clear-some people will not bow down to demands made by bloviating ideologues. Doing so seems to be surrendering the argument to them when the whole of their argument boils down to "it's okay when we do it."

But, as I and others here have pointed out, Benson hasn’t actually used the word “cunt” herself as an insult: the difference is in the “use-mention” dichotomy. So I think you’re being intellectually dishonest – at best – to insist that her argument boils down to “it’s ok when we do it”. She hasn’t committed that particular crime, yet you still insist that she has.

Telling me the proper usage of a word vs using the word as an insult?

You have to be joking. You’re saying that the word is never used as an insult? You might want to check a few dictionaries. And the previous quote of Smurthwaite about David Cameron being a cunt suggests it can be used that way in the UK as well.

She uses the word the way she wants to. I use the word the way I want to. She may believe hers is the only correct usage.

Seems to me that civilization depends rather critically on having common meanings for words. Can’t see that libraries are going to be more than collections of smudges on paper otherwise. Part of my objection to SJWs and their efforts to redefine “misogyny”, and “sexism”, among others.

Instead of telling me that I'm accusing her of something (using cunt as an insult) tell me why her usage is the only correct usage.

Which usage? Again, you’re ignoring the difference between different uses and connotations of the word. Seems obvious that it can be used in a great many ways, some with some pejorative connotations, and some of quite contrary ones.

However, there is some question as to what the implications are of its rather frequent use as an insult, whether that is a reflection of some intrinsic misogyny or not.

[Time to call it a day; night all]

[Cunt of Personality]

http://i.imgur.com/UcAmfvL.jpg