Shall Mr Vacula Make a Misstep in the Capital of Eire?

Old subthreads
yomomma
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Posts: 373
Joined: Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:52 pm

Re: Shall Mr Vacula Make a Misstep in the Capital of Eire?

#14691

Post by yomomma »

Biohazard, thanks for posting that. Interesting.

I thought you said that Penn Gillette commented too, or am I mistaken?

Badger3k
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Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 6:53 am

Re: Shall Mr Vacula Make a Misstep in the Capital of Eire?

#14692

Post by Badger3k »

JackRayner wrote:
Badger3k wrote:I've tried to figure this out: PZ on @elevatorgate. MAybe it's just because I don't use twitter or storify, and couldn't care less if people copy what I make public or if they want to spam. Spam gets tossed out and ignored. Same as junk mail and junk phone calls - deleted off the machine.

PZ compares him to Mabus. Not sure on this. As far as I know, @elevatorgate never threatened anyone (could be wrong, as I don't follow him).
Correct. He hasn't.
It sounds like this guy is doing the same thing as spamming. However I don't know what is being said, and whether it is harassment - whether he is manking personal suggestions, etc, or just spamming. I did notice the disconnect that we have been saying all along. There is a difference between things being brought to your attention and things that you must go to and look for yourself. That I agree with.
He isn't spamming. EG has just been storifying their publicly available tweets. Now, there are settings on Storify that each user can set, and one of these lets the user know anytime they've have been added to a Storify. These idiots raving against EG are partly crying about the fact that they don't want to have to turn off email notifications, but they're mostly just building a threat narrative against EG by repeatedly asserting that he is a stalker and a harasser. [One of these idiots has literally been crying about fearing for her life.]

Personally, I think both are straight BS. The former for obvious reasons, the latter because they've been given the means to shut him out from seeing any of their tweets [why keep your account public and then bitch and moan that people can read your shit and share it around?!], or even just turn off their Storify notifications, so they don't have to know when he's compiling the shit they've said publicly and sharing it with the world. Nothing EG is doing is violating the Twitter Terms of Service, and the co-founder of Storify himself has told these idiots that there's nothing wrong with him [or anyone else, for that matter] storifying their publicly available tweets. [PUBLICLY AVAILABLE. How many more times should I spell that out?] But of course, these are delicate flowers we're talking about, so expecting them to do anything about it is just promoting rape culture.

Anyways, check this Storify and this Storify for the scoop.

Fuck it! Let me add one more. This last one really shows how batshit these people bitching about Storify are...
Appreciate all the responses on this. It looks just like another overreaction by the usual suspects. Should have known, and it is what I suspected but since I had no information I didn't want to jump the gun (or the shark, 'ey PZ - I was going to link his name to the Fonz, but not even on his best day).

katamari Damassi
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Re: Poppy v. Drescher

#14693

Post by katamari Damassi »

Biohazard wrote:OK, this is the FB conversation, featuring Carrie Poppy, I was referring to that no one could see. I have replaced the names of people not already mentioned with anonymous handles (Commenter #1 etc.). This is based on the conversation as it appeared this morning, it in two parts so get your scroll finger limbered up if you're not interested:
Commenter #1 Nailed it.
Yesterday at 6:40am • Like • 1

Commenter #2 Brilliant!
Yesterday at 6:44am • Like • 1

Commenter #3
[snip picture of Nancy Regan with a "just say no" sign in front of her.]
Yesterday at 7:18am • Like

Commenter #4 He really went for the jugular in the end, lol.
Yesterday at 7:36am • Like

Wendy Hughes The Deity does not mince words.
Yesterday at 7:55am via mobile • Like

Carrie Poppy Yeah, great. Victim blaming. Great.
23 hours ago • Like • 1

Commenter #4 Where's the victim blaming?
23 hours ago • Like

Carrie Poppy The alcohol bit appears to be a reference to one of the accusers saying alcohol was involved in her alleged rape.
23 hours ago • Like

Commenter #4 You mean the water into wine comment?
23 hours ago • Like

Carrie Poppy No, he's offered alcohol and says no, and then says that wasn't hard, because he's an adult, responsible for his own decisions (summarizing-- I watched it last night).
23 hours ago • Like

Commenter #4 Oh, I see. I had initially took that part as the wine being a metaphor for gossip. Don't drink from the cup of gossip, so to speak.

But now that I rewatch that segment from the perspective of the claim that the victim was plied with alcohol, I understand what you mean. Now I wonder if he did mean that. If he did, I'd say it's a cheap shot. To me, this whole issue is about how PZ chose to treat the issue as his own personal dilemma about whether to blog about it, instead of urging the claimant to go to the authorities and then waiting for that to play out. I mean, there shouldn't have been a big hurry considering the alleged event took place several years ago.

Either it's a legit claim or it's not*. The details about alcohol and otherwise are irrelevant, as far as I can tell.

*this isn't to say that I think it's someone crying rape falsely, but it's a suspect situation with an 'anonymous' claimant reported by a guy who's been acting rather erratic lately.
23 hours ago • Like

Carrie Poppy For the protection of the victim/accuser, I can't say much, but I know who she is, I have heard her account, and for what it's worth, I believe her. And based on what she's told me, I understand why she hasn't gone to the authorities, although I (and PZ) have encouraged her to do so. Ultimately, that's her decision. But what she asked was for PZ to post her statement. So, he did.
23 hours ago • Edited • Like

Carrie Poppy But anyway, back to the alcohol: If that's not what he meant, I don't get the joke. Definitely read as blaming the victim, to me.
23 hours ago • Like

Commenter #4 Yeah, if that's the intent of that gag, it's no different then him doing up his top button and suggesting that we should cover up.
23 hours ago • Like • 3

Carrie Poppy Absolutely.
23 hours ago • Like

Carrie Poppy There are no winners here. I get why it sucks for everyone. But blaming the victim is, hands-down, the worst way we can handle this awful situation.
23 hours ago • Like • 3

Commenter #4 Agreed. I can't imagine what it would be like to endure an assault by a prominent community figure and feel stuck. I also can't imagine being accused of rape (assuming I hadn't done it). From my perspective, I have no personal knowledge of the truth of the matter is so ultimately, I don't have an opinion, beyond wishing that justice would miraculously occur for all parties. I just think PZ's delivery of the information was pretty ridiculous.

Now, if I had a friend who felt stuck and she confided in me and asked me to share her experience on a prominent blog, I don't know what I'd do, to be honest. You want to believe your friend, but taking such a inflammatory claim to the court of public opinion is a huge risk.

Ugh. You are absolutely right about there being no winners, Carrie.
23 hours ago • Like

Carrie Poppy It was definitely a risk. But he knew that, I'm sure. He did it because he thought it was the right thing to do. Like him or hate him, he took a huge risk because he wanted to help a woman who said she'd been raped, and felt she had no other options.
23 hours ago • Like • 2

Barbara A. Drescher The wine segment clearly refers to a story that didn't involve sexual contact at all. Of course you'd have to have read the story for this to be clear, but I believe it was added to PZ's post. The story was a woman who claimed that she asked Shermer to sign a book and he was chatty and flirty with her afterward. She said that he kept filling her wine glass. She found it creepy and left. End of story. There is no victim to blame.
23 hours ago via mobile • Like • 2

Barbara A. Drescher I'll add that, like abuse of the term "privilege", calling every criticism of unsubstantiated claims "victim blaming" is a convenient dodge of personal responsibility. This issue is not black and white. There is very little in this world that can be categorized so neatly into "always right" and "always wrong". That's why we have systems in place to help us decide where the lines are *as a society*.
22 hours ago via mobile • Like • 2

Carrie Poppy Oh, if it was a reference to the "creepy" wine thing, that's fine (I hadn't even heard that story). But the woman who made the statement to PZ said the story involved alcohol, too. She says she was raped.
22 hours ago • Like

Carrie Poppy Actually, I shouldn't say "that's fine." It's still not a very responsible thing to do right now. But it's certainly different from the reference I thought he was making, if you're right. And I would be somewhat relieved to learn you are.
22 hours ago • Like

Barbara A. Drescher You can't have it both ways. If drunk people are not responsible for the choices they make, then nobody should be prosecuted for drunk driving, are you prepared for that? All of this *sounds* very compassionate, but short-sighted thinking and rhetoric-driven behavior such as blacklisting and vigilantism is actually very, very irrational and harmful.
22 hours ago via mobile • Like • 2

Wendy Hughes It's a lot like the death penalty. It's across the board or not at all. You can't pick & choose who and when to apply it.
22 hours ago via mobile • Like • 3

Commenter #2 Maybe I'm just really naive about this, but if someone keeps giving you drinks, are you at all obligated to drink them? Can you not just say "no thanks" if a person keeps giving you drinks? Or give them to someone else if that person insists on buying you drinks? Unless you're being forced to drink (or are drugged) are you not responsible for your own actions and alcoholic intake?
21 hours ago • Edited • Like • 2

Carrie Poppy Again, I can't give more details. All I said was that alcohol was involved. There are a lot of assumptions being made here, and they are incorrect assumptions. I can't give you more details than that because the victim asked me not to.
21 hours ago • Like

Commenter #2 I'm talking strictly about a hypothetical situation, based on Mr. Deity's speech.
21 hours ago • Like

Carrie Poppy Okay. I'm not.
21 hours ago • Like

Barbara A. Drescher The details are not relevant. That's part of the problem with this conversation.
21 hours ago via mobile • Like

Barbara A. Drescher Try taking the bit on face value.
21 hours ago via mobile • Like

Carrie Poppy Well, I just lost faith in humanity.
21 hours ago • Like • 1

Commenter #5 Getting drunk and getting in a car to drive it implies action on the part of the drunk person. Getting drunk and and having something done to you (like sexual assault or robbery, say) doesn't mean you've actually made any decision except the decision to drink itself. I'm sure we'd all agree that if a drunk person is passed out in a public park, say, it doesn't mean we can all go have sex with them. Or if a drunk person passes out in your hotel room. Obviously not every situation is that clear, but I don't think this parallel totally passes muster.
21 hours ago • Like • 2

Barbara A. Drescher [Commenter #5], please do not misrepresent what I wrote. People who are passed out don't drive cars, either. They don't make choices. That's a straw man.
21 hours ago • Edited • Like

Commenter #5 Yes, that's true. Didn't mean to lump everything together like that. Was more of a response to other alcohol comments. I realize yours is a more nuanced comment.
21 hours ago • Like • 2

Barbara A. Drescher Thank you, [Commenter #5]. I expected someone to bring it up and I'm glad that it was you, since you clearly recognize the difference.
21 hours ago • Like • 2
[End part 1 of 2 (damn character limit)]
Why does anyone even engage Carrie Poppy? Shouldn't she get back to euthanizing animals for PETA?

real horrorshow
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Posts: 1505
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Location: In a band of brigands.

Re: Love is a Battlefield

#14694

Post by real horrorshow »

AndrewV69 wrote: Woman makes false rape claim, cop: 'We run into that all the time'
http://www.cotwa.info/2013/08/woman-mak ... e-run.html
Several things struck me reading that article:
Eighty per cent of men had overall positive feelings about the experience compared to 54 per cent of women. . . . . The predominant negative feeling reported by women was regret at having been 'used'.
This has baffled me all my sexually active life. The only reward you're even half-way entitled to in a one night stand is an orgasm (or several). Why do some women think that having sex is something they should be rewarded for over and above the pleasures of the act itself? And if they feel that way why not cut the crap and go into prostitution or porn?
Similarly, last year in Ohio State University's student newspaper The Lantern, Amy Bonomi, a professor of human sexuality at OSU specializing in domestic violence and assault, said:
"Women tend to feel bad after having a random hook up," she said. Typically men are not upset by these occurrences. Bonomi attributed this situation to society's "gender double standard" that men are expected to be more sexually forward than women.
Again, I've been hearing about this "double standard" all my life. I know that it exists, I've seen it in action, but who's enforcing it? Because - for the most part - I don't think it's guys. If the male students at OSU are anything like I was as an undergrad "sexually forward" women are what they want. (It was the only way I got laid at University!) About the only time you'll find men being critical of a woman for being too sexually active are:

1) If he thought they had a monogamous relationship and she fucked other people.

2) If she fucks a lot of people he knows, but not him. (In fact, the latter is the joke male definition of 'slut')

The real "slut-shamers" - in my experience - are other women. And I would love to know why so many women - here in the First World and the 21st Century - think pussy must be rationed. It's not like there's a shortage! Women do understand that I am not going to marry them and provide this nowadays don't they:
[youtube]XuK9_yXN-H8[/youtube]
That was over before I was born.

Badger3k
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Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 6:53 am

Re: Shall Mr Vacula Make a Misstep in the Capital of Eire?

#14695

Post by Badger3k »

Ä uest wrote: Scalzi is a very well known SF writer and former President of SFWA.

He is widely known for his essay http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/s ... -there-is/ but this essay suffers from his own "privilege" - that is, he is a very smart talented guy that has become very successful.

Because he feels he was successful and made it on his own, then all white men should be successful and make it on their own.

I think of this as a "bootstrap fallacy" -- it's often attributed to "tea partiers' by folks on the left.
Thanks, I thought I had heard that name. I think I have a few of his books in my electronic library, but haven't read any of them. From reading the links people put up, I'm not impressed with his intellect or comprehension, so I'm not sure if I will read them. Was the one of the people who started the whole "misogyny in SF" thing a short time back? If so, I have to wonder about his evidence for that also. I never looked into it either so I had no opinion either way at the time - I just saw it being used as ammunition by the SJWs to target all of mankind.

JustAtheist
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Re: Shall Mr Vacula Make a Misstep in the Capital of Eire?

#14696

Post by JustAtheist »

You cant have it both ways. You cant say hey i cant give any details but if you assume any details or do any conjecture its victim blaming. Without details there is no victim there is a rumor of a victim. Without any details you cant blame anyone since there is nothing to directly criticize.

Fucking stupid.

katamari Damassi
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Posts: 5429
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:32 am

Re: Love is a Battlefield

#14697

Post by katamari Damassi »

ERV wrote:
Verklagekasper wrote:The reason why Twitter storifying raised the interest of PZ is this:
You know what I thought was scary, Rebecca? Having a real stalker.

Verklagekasper wrote:White knight to the rescue: He does have a crush on her, doesn't he. If the FTB/Skepchick environment wasn't so sex-negative, they could have settled this with drunk monkey sex long time ago, and nothing of all the current hassle would have happened.
I am big on trust in my relationships. I dont care if my partner goes out and parties with friends/family without me, or has scantly dressed women as fitness clients. I am either with someone I trust, or Im not with someone.

But the way Myers has been following Watson around the past few years, seeing him throw away relationships over her, risk his career and the financial security of his family for her, going to events she is at (that he isnt speaking at)-- I would have ended it with him a long time ago.

Its weird.
It looks like Peezus is successful using this non-crisis/controversy of Storifying=stalking to distract from false rape accusationgate or whatever the fuck we've decide to call it.

Biohazard
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Re: Shall Mr Vacula Make a Misstep in the Capital of Eire?

#14698

Post by Biohazard »

yomomma wrote:Biohazard, thanks for posting that. Interesting.

I thought you said that Penn Gillette commented too, or am I mistaken?
Your welcome and I don't recall seeing Penn in that thread.

Karmakin
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Posts: 1437
Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2012 6:49 am

Re: Shall Mr Vacula Make a Misstep in the Capital of Eire?

#14699

Post by Karmakin »

I've said it before and I'll say it again. There's nothing new with what @Elevatorgate is doing, especially from a progressive PoV. It's not that much different from say Amanda Marcotte spending years writing about Vox Day every week or so or John Cole and the others at Balloon Juice writing about the latest from Andrew Sullivan or Megan McArdle.

Of course at this juncture most people don't even know where it started, which was a guy by the name of BartCop writing about the bleatings of Rush Limbaugh day in and day out.

Nothing new under the sun. Just pisses me when people don't put this stuff in the proper context.

Lsuoma
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Location: Punggye-ri

Re: Love is a Battlefield

#14700

Post by Lsuoma »

katamari Damassi wrote: It looks like Peezus is successful using this non-crisis/controversy of Storifying=stalking to distract from false rape accusationgate or whatever the fuck we've decide to call it.
Doesn't matter, really. The real action - I'm guessing, based on PeeZus' self-pitying whine - is going on in attorney-land, and will take some time to come to light.

ὀψε θɛῷν ἀλέουσίμύλοί, ἀλέουσί δε λɛρṯά,

welch
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Re: Shall Mr Vacula Make a Misstep in the Capital of Eire?

#14701

Post by welch »

Ä uest wrote:elevatorGate is accused of

* stalking by reading
* stalking by storifying
* harassment via notifications

It should be trivially seen that

* stalking by reading and/or storifying is neither stalking nor harassment

Right now Storify shoots off emails for:
http://i.imgur.com/cQR72g6.jpg

Storify should

* allow users to turn off notifications for the activities of specific other users.
So it looks like if you aren't part of storify, you'd never know if someone was using it on you?

Early Cuyler

Re: Shall Mr Vacula Make a Misstep in the Capital of Eire?

#14702

Post by Early Cuyler »

katamari Damassi wrote:
Early Cuyler wrote:
BTW, Stolichnaya is already pro-LGBT.
Call me a skeptic, but I'm not inclined to take their word for that and prefer to see some proof.

Stolichnaya blue label is 100, how much more proof do you need? :rimshot:

Seriously though, how about doing your own fucking homework before you call a company a bunch of liars. :hand:

welch
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Posts: 9208
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:05 am

Re: Shall Mr Vacula Make a Misstep in the Capital of Eire?

#14703

Post by welch »

ConcentratedH2O, OM wrote:http://i.imgur.com/4y7m1y8.jpg
I never owned an IBM PC.

Had an atari 800 for a while once.

Ä uest

Re: Shall Mr Vacula Make a Misstep in the Capital of Eire?

#14704

Post by Ä uest »

Badger3k wrote:Was the one of the people who started the whole "misogyny in SF" thing a short time back? If so, I have to wonder about his evidence for that also. I never looked into it either so I had no opinion either way at the time - I just saw it being used as ammunition by the SJWs to target all of mankind.
Yeah, I think he was President of SFWA when that went down.

My take was that there was a huge generational divide. Scalzi et. al., were castigating these 70 year old SF writers for their sexism. These 70 year old guys were in their hey day in the 60s, 70s, and 80s. A time of lots of sex in SF (Bradbury's Stranger in a Strangeland, and lots and lots of sex) written by writers that paved the way for sex positive, LGBT friendly science fiction.

And lots of scantily clad women on covers.

So these 70 year old are reminiscing about their old publishers and the environment back then, and they run smack into a bunch of "modern" SJW SF writers that have teleported in from Victorian London, and they are shocked and offended by the talk that is going on.

So Scalzi, as President, instead of trying to reach understanding, whips out his own dick of social justice and joins in the pile-on.

Scalzi came off as a whiny-ass titty baby.

IMNSHO

Lsuoma
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Re: Shall Mr Vacula Make a Misstep in the Capital of Eire?

#14705

Post by Lsuoma »

welch wrote:
ConcentratedH2O, OM wrote:[bimg]http://i.imgur.com/4y7m1y8.jpg[/bimg]
I never owned an IBM PC.

Had an atari 800 for a while once.
Methinks thou dost protest too much!

welch
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Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:05 am

Re: Shall Mr Vacula Make a Misstep in the Capital of Eire?

#14706

Post by welch »

katamari Damassi wrote:I haven't read any of Scalzi's novels so I'm not a fan, but I can understand why he's at least SJW friendly. A lot of geeks are SJW's and we know how fickle the SJW demographic can be, but geeks who oppose the nonsense of the SJW's are still going to read his stuff even if they disagree with his nonfiction, ideological writing, because nonSJW geeks will read pretty much any SF and fantasy.

Here, Scalzi the SOCIAL JUSTICE WARRIOR;

http://whatever.scalzi.com/2013/07/17/b ... rs-and-me/

evidently, when it might impact him, then you know, whatever you want to do, that's jes' peachy.

Lsuoma
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Re: Shall Mr Vacula Make a Misstep in the Capital of Eire?

#14707

Post by Lsuoma »

Ä uest wrote:
Badger3k wrote:Was the one of the people who started the whole "misogyny in SF" thing a short time back? If so, I have to wonder about his evidence for that also. I never looked into it either so I had no opinion either way at the time - I just saw it being used as ammunition by the SJWs to target all of mankind.
Yeah, I think he was President of SFWA when that went down.

My take was that there was a huge generational divide. Scalzi et. al., were castigating these 70 year old SF writers for their sexism. These 70 year old guys were in their hey day in the 60s, 70s, and 80s. A time of lots of sex in SF (Bradbury's Stranger in a Strangeland, and lots and lots of sex) written by writers that paved the way for sex positive, LGBT friendly science fiction.

And lots of scantily clad women on covers.

So these 70 year old are reminiscing about their old publishers and the environment back then, and they run smack into a bunch of "modern" SJW SF writers that have teleported in from Victorian London, and they are shocked and offended by the talk that is going on.

So Scalzi, as President, instead of trying to reach understanding, whips out his own dick of social justice and joins in the pile-on.

Scalzi came off as a whiny-ass titty baby.

IMNSHO
Scalzi comes off like another blue-hair-pantie sniffer...

Ä uest

Re: Shall Mr Vacula Make a Misstep in the Capital of Eire?

#14708

Post by Ä uest »

welch wrote:
Ä uest wrote:elevatorGate is accused of

* stalking by reading
* stalking by storifying
* harassment via notifications

It should be trivially seen that

* stalking by reading and/or storifying is neither stalking nor harassment

Right now Storify shoots off emails for:
http://i.imgur.com/cQR72g6.jpg

Storify should

* allow users to turn off notifications for the activities of specific other users.
So it looks like if you aren't part of storify, you'd never know if someone was using it on you?
That would seem to be the case, otherwise, how do they get the email addrs of the folks they are notifying?

Locked