Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

[EdwardGemmer]

I don't think anyone here is disagreeing that she has a point. But, the point is blatantly obvious. It's nothing new. If she wants to educate her audience, why not expatiate on the reasons why this trope exists? Delve into cultural norms. Was this a trope that was birthed in Japan and was exported to the United States? Is it universal? If it's universal, that begs some pretty interesting questions.

Is it universal because of rampant cultural stereotypes or is it something innate in all of us? How do cultural norms change over the years? Indeed, has this particular trope evolved?

What was video game culture like in the 80s? Was it something women were even interested in? Who were the main programmers back then? What were they influenced by?

The questions are legion and I would love for someone to do a detailed analysis of them. All we get here is someone pointing out what everyone already knows. It's boring and it feeds into the whole, "all feminists care about is deconstructing every single thing to fit their ideology" trope. Which, by the way, is also boring.

Well, (1) the point may be obvious to you. I found it interesting because I'd never really thought of video games in that manner. I like video games, but I don't play them too much, but when I do think about them, especially now with two daughters, I am kind of miffed that the representations of women are often so silly. I can imagine that Sarkeesian, who obviously is a fan of video games and an outspoken feminist, would be frustrated with some of the representations of women in games.

(2) There is a difference between criticizing something for not being good and criticizing it because it isn't what you want to know. If you already knew all this stuff and would be more interested in other things, then great. However, I've never played Wind Waker or many other of the games she references, and I never really thought about the women being a glorified ball that you fight over. In retrospect, it is obvious, but that doesn't mean it is poor criticism. Lots of things are obvious in retrospect.

[codelette]

Bullshit. She COMPLETELY ignored cultural influences on the designers of both video games. The fact someone ELSE did not doesn't erase the fact that Sarkeesian did. What the fuck dude, you keep trying to make it sound like she did anything but the bare minimum for a "C" on her little video book report. Why?

Because for her to get a C, there has to be someone else who can at least get an A. I haven't had time to explore the entire internet for youtube videos about women and games, but please link me to any that are far superior. She talked at length about the history of the damsel in distress - King Kong, World War 2, Popeye, etc. I think it is legitimate criticism to say she didn't bring up the Japanese culture in the development of these games, but hey, legitimate criticism adds to the discussion. The games she brings up were still wildly, wildly popular in the United States and it's not like the United States had never encountered the trope before Japan brought it to them.

So Mario was popular because he was a fat italian guy, or because it was the best platforming game to come out at that time.

Back then, with small teams making these games, 95% of the effort went into gameplay, graphics and level design. You can see it start to branch out in the 90s as there was more competition then.

Stating nintendo games in the mid-late 80s were popular is like saying a lot of people went to see the first movies. OK, and? Was it actually about the message in the movies or was it about the fact that there were now "moving" pictures? Early games were about the technology and figuring out what gameplay was popular, couple that with 95% of developers being male(who would shocking make the characters male) and there you go. Let's see, spend a lot of billable hours working on a story, or shoehorn old fable involving princess in tower guarded by dragon as story, hire 3 less people... sounds good!

the amount of ignorance Sarkeesian posesses about the state of early video games requires scientific notation to properly assess.

Yeah, I agree with the critique of her cherry-picking.
Our first console at home was an Atari 2600. Games played on it? Pac-Man, Centipede, Frogger, Space Invader, Combat, Boxing...where's the rampant sexism on those early video games?
When we got ahold of the Nintendo NES, we played Tyson's Punch Out, Duck Hunt, Running Stadium, Mortal Komabt...there's even mixed gender fights on that last game...

[EdwardGemmer]

In the follow on comments he asks: "Why is it OK for people 30 years ago to have been tacitly sexist? Was it OK for people a150 years ago to be pro-slavery?"

Shitting hell, I wonder what the average african-american would make of that statement. 30 years ago people didn't get all butt-hurt about the fact they couldn't choose to play as the girl in a specific arcade game. Its was just like slavery!!

LOL exactly! PZ experiences his own little bit of slavery by not being able to play as Princess Peach in Super Mario Brothers 3. Though the raccoon suit was a little bit feminine and that tail could have a few extracurricular uses.

[Altair]

There can be no doubt that games were and are marketed to boys and men. I don't think it is even a problem, and Sarkeesian doesn't exactly present it as some sort of evidence of the evil Nintendo. More, it is an observation - one that can be easily modified now, as evidenced by the guy who modified Donkey Kong. The Damsel in Distress is a cliche - of course women can be a "prize." Men's whole lives can be more or less premised on the idea that being more successful can lead to more sex. Video games which tap into our fantasies are no different.

I would agree with the "were" part but not so sure about the "are". I think they are now marketed to both genders, and that's what's brought the change in male/female characters ratio.
Videogames are a business. I don't think companies care a lot about social justice, but they care about the money they make. And if they find out that there's a lot of girls/women out there who want to buy games, and would buy more if they had a certain type of characters, they probably will end up making that kind of game to boost their sales.

I don't think Sarkeesian presents as evidence of the evil Nintendo, but from what I can gather she presents it as evidence of a sexist against women mindset. I think that's a too simplistic analysis. After all, the fact that tomb raider, resident evil, portal and mirror's edge have female protagonists says nothing about sexism against men.
I think those games can be used to analyze the culture of a time and place, and maybe even to wonder about men's and women's way of thinking, and how all these things influence the media, but it seems to me that she's just looking for examples to increase women's victim points.

For example, the original Silent Hill game has a father brave all the ghosts and monsters in the town in order to save his daughter. In the movie, the character was replaced by the girl's mother. Some people think it was done because women look more vulnerable and would increase the tension. Some people think it was because society considers that a father cannot love their children and just risk everything to protect them, like a mother would. One of them is sexist against women, one of them against men.

Is it one thing? Both? none? This thing requires a deeper analysis, one that doesn't start with the premise of "there is sexism and it's directed against women".

[jimthepleb]

Have any of you peeps here yet clicked on Brony's name? It takes you to his blog.

It's about neuroscience - or at least Brony's take on it - and, uh, My Little Pony.

It is all exceedingly strange.

[snip]

http://realitybasedbrainponies.wordpress.com/

At least, like me, he's honest enough to put right in his username that he's not somebody worth listening to.

I'd rather listen to a cunt than a brony any day.

QFT
but he's not a cunt he's a dick.

[cunt]

In the follow on comments he asks: "Why is it OK for people 30 years ago to have been tacitly sexist? Was it OK for people a150 years ago to be pro-slavery?"

Shitting hell, I wonder what the average african-american would make of that statement. 30 years ago people didn't get all butt-hurt about the fact they couldn't choose to play as the girl in a specific arcade game. Its was just like slavery!!

LOL exactly! PZ experiences his own little bit of slavery by not being able to play as Princess Peach in Super Mario Brothers 3. Though the raccoon suit was a little bit feminine and that tail could have a few extracurricular uses.

Just remember this pale tub of lard is here to tell you all about cultural sensitivity.

[EdwardGemmer]

Interesting video on Sarkeesian v. video games:

[youtube]LpFk5F-S_hI[/youtube]

part 1 is more about her general philosophy and is well worth a watch.

I watched most of it, but honestly, I'm not that interested in the moral character of Anita Sarkeesian. I don't know her, she isn't watching my kids, she's not my neighbor, so I don't care if she once moderated someone's YouTube comment. Her video is good. That's it. I can't speak for her ethics or morals. I'm not a fan of trying to find ways to dismiss things that clearly have value. For example, the Crommunist had a big hissyfit because I was posting on his blog and he didn't like that. For whatever reason, he didn't want me posting there. Maybe he thinks I'm a racistsexist slymepitter, maybe he just hates white men, maybe he just can't handle disagreement, I don't know. He insulted me and my family and called me out on his blog and on Twitter. There is no reason for me to personally like him, but I told him, and still maintain, that he does a good job with his blog. He often makes interesting posts and clearly tries to think outside the box. The fact he doesn't like me is no reason for me to dismiss everything he ever says.

Similarly, I don't know what Sarkeesian has or hasn't said in the past. I saw one video attacking her master's thesis. So what/ It doesn't matter who she is as a person, because I don't value her for her great morals. I just like her videos.

[TheMudbrooker]

I'm getting sick of listening to the computer gamers here whining about this game or that being or not being sexist/misogynisitic/racist/whateverthefuck. If you want a game with exactly the characters, motivations and storyline you want all you have to do is unplug the console and paly an RPG the way it was meant to be played: a bunch of people sitting around a table, rolling dice, passing a bong and creating their own world as the gameplay evolves.

And while you're at it, you kids can get off my fucking lawn too.

[Percentage]

FWIW, I enjoyed Sarkeesian's gamer video. You can't deny that the video game industry is extremely male-dominated, and has been since its inception; I don't see anything wrong with deconstructing that, especially since video games have become more mainstream and thus culturally important in the past decade. I think I can concede all that without joining the batshit brigade. There's a middle ground to be found here.

I'm looking forward to her second video.

[Maximus]

Current games can create characters with deeper motivations and more intricate characters, and that could allow game writers to expand the characters available, and give them less simplistic motivations.

I don't have any evidence for this, but I have the impression that initially boys were the main consumers of videogames.
But were games with male protagonists created because of this, or were they the main consumers because the available games had male protagonists? that sounds like the chicken-egg problem, and I don't have a clear answer.

There can be no doubt that games were and are marketed to boys and men. I don't think it is even a problem, and Sarkeesian doesn't exactly present it as some sort of evidence of the evil Nintendo. More, it is an observation - one that can be easily modified now, as evidenced by the guy who modified Donkey Kong. The Damsel in Distress is a cliche - of course women can be a "prize." Men's whole lives can be more or less premised on the idea that being more successful can lead to more sex. Video games which tap into our fantasies are no different.

Until it is established that video games have an effect on reality, such as the much discussed 'violence in video games ', thoerising is just mental masterbation. Fantasies are just that, fantasies, merely entertainment and art.

[codelette]

- You have ever told a woman to ‘get over it’ because she was upset by a sexist joke, a catcall or a whistle.

I make sure to tell women to never get over it. Obsess, and seethe, and rage unceasingly for the rest of your life over that sexist joke.

I have never had to tell a women to get over a sexist joke, a catcall or a whistle.
Maybe it is because the women around me -and myself- usually do not give a fuck about those. If a guy is crossing the line -i.e. if the guy starts following me- I inform the aforementioned man to get lost (usually a "keep moving, motherfucker" suffices).
Some training for Ophie and Co. on how to dispatch nuisances (1:36 fwd):
[youtube]uP_3goBZj1Y[/youtube]
lol

[jimthepleb]

LAIDEEEES and Gnlmn we announce the retirement of the 9000 time champion steersman for most Pointless obtuse and verbose poster for our NEW CHALLENGER Edward the Teddy Gemmer in a match we have called Descent into the Depths of Well meaning compromise.
Look we all would like to be fair to them, but are these sjw's playing by the rules of 'standard social discourse'?

[jimthepleb]

fuck punctuation i go ee cummings from now

[welch]

I don't think anyone here is disagreeing that she has a point. But, the point is blatantly obvious. It's nothing new. If she wants to educate her audience, why not expatiate on the reasons why this trope exists? Delve into cultural norms. Was this a trope that was birthed in Japan and was exported to the United States? Is it universal? If it's universal, that begs some pretty interesting questions.

Is it universal because of rampant cultural stereotypes or is it something innate in all of us? How do cultural norms change over the years? Indeed, has this particular trope evolved?

What was video game culture like in the 80s? Was it something women were even interested in? Who were the main programmers back then? What were they influenced by?

The questions are legion and I would love for someone to do a detailed analysis of them. All we get here is someone pointing out what everyone already knows. It's boring and it feeds into the whole, "all feminists care about is deconstructing every single thing to fit their ideology" trope. Which, by the way, is also boring.

Well, (1) the point may be obvious to you. I found it interesting because I'd never really thought of video games in that manner. I like video games, but I don't play them too much, but when I do think about them, especially now with two daughters, I am kind of miffed that the representations of women are often so silly. I can imagine that Sarkeesian, who obviously is a fan of video games and an outspoken feminist, would be frustrated with some of the representations of women in games.

(2) There is a difference between criticizing something for not being good and criticizing it because it isn't what you want to know. If you already knew all this stuff and would be more interested in other things, then great. However, I've never played Wind Waker or many other of the games she references, and I never really thought about the women being a glorified ball that you fight over. In retrospect, it is obvious, but that doesn't mean it is poor criticism. Lots of things are obvious in retrospect.

The fact you chose to remain ignorant of video games and a thousand-year-old trope doesn't make shitty analysis better.

[cunt]

At least, like me, he's honest enough to put right in his username that he's not somebody worth listening to.

I'd rather listen to a cunt than a brony any day.

Thanks, I think.

[welch]

Interesting video on Sarkeesian v. video games:

[youtube]LpFk5F-S_hI[/youtube]

part 1 is more about her general philosophy and is well worth a watch.

I watched most of it, but honestly, I'm not that interested in the moral character of Anita Sarkeesian. I don't know her, she isn't watching my kids, she's not my neighbor, so I don't care if she once moderated someone's YouTube comment. Her video is good. That's it. I can't speak for her ethics or morals. I'm not a fan of trying to find ways to dismiss things that clearly have value. For example, the Crommunist had a big hissyfit because I was posting on his blog and he didn't like that. For whatever reason, he didn't want me posting there. Maybe he thinks I'm a racistsexist slymepitter, maybe he just hates white men, maybe he just can't handle disagreement, I don't know. He insulted me and my family and called me out on his blog and on Twitter. There is no reason for me to personally like him, but I told him, and still maintain, that he does a good job with his blog. He often makes interesting posts and clearly tries to think outside the box. The fact he doesn't like me is no reason for me to dismiss everything he ever says.

Similarly, I don't know what Sarkeesian has or hasn't said in the past. I saw one video attacking her master's thesis. So what/ It doesn't matter who she is as a person, because I don't value her for her great morals. I just like her videos.

what about her thesis was it attacking? If it was crap research and analysis, I'd say that based on what I've seen, that's a valid criticism

[Aneris]

the amount of ignorance Sarkeesian posesses about the state of early video games requires scientific notation to properly assess.

Yeah, I agree with the critique of her cherry-picking.
Our first console at home was an Atari 2600. Games played on it? Pac-Man, Centipede, Frogger, Space Invader, Combat, Boxing...where's the rampant sexism on those early video games?
When we got ahold of the Nintendo NES, we played Tyson's Punch Out, Duck Hunt, Running Stadium, Mortal Komabt...there's even mixed gender fights on that last game...

Especially as video games didn't really have a tradition at that time. Her methodology was flawed, as the storytelling of games belong to culturally different traditions that are more or less sexist. Zelda belongs to the adventure genre. Donkey Kong perhaps to the early cinema (King Kong). Action games are in their presentation closer to the action flicks and so on. She has to take the contexts into account, or focus on the video-game-only aspects (multi-medial-interactivity) to make her point.

[Tigzy]

Course, the old girl couldn't resist. In fact, I think Ophie has found her new cunt-kick:

http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterflies ... sentiment/
http://www.freezepage.com/1363127732ENULBVVVQY

Intriguing that the tweet which piqued her curiosity wasn't directed at her - would be even more intriguing if she has Blackford blocked/unfollowed on twitter...

[welch]

FWIW, I enjoyed Sarkeesian's gamer video. You can't deny that the video game industry is extremely male-dominated, and has been since its inception; I don't see anything wrong with deconstructing that, especially since video games have become more mainstream and thus culturally important in the past decade. I think I can concede all that without joining the batshit brigade. There's a middle ground to be found here.

I'm looking forward to her second video.

What part of "I don't mind analysis, but that was a shallow book report that a 14-year-old could have done on an off day" translates to LEAVE MY VIDEO GAMES ALONE YOU VICIOUS HARRIDAN?

Nothing you say has fuck anything to do with the major criticism of her fucking films presented here.

I don't give a fuck that she's a woman.
I think a solid, complete analysis of gender roles in video games is highly welcome, especially the early days of video games when the "images" were barely recognizable as HUMAN, would be honestly quite interesting.
I give a lot of fucks that she did a shit job.
I give a lot of fucks that people are using the poor behavior of many people to try to make a shitty book report of a video into insightful analysis.
I give even MORE fucks that if someone, especially a woman tries to do a SERIOUS analysis of gender roles in video games, that you know, has some actual analysis, Sarkeesian's shittastic Google University thesis will make their job a LOT harder.

She may pull her head out on the later films. If so, I will *welcome* that. But what I've seen so far gives me zero hope for that.

[Maximus]

Interesting video on Sarkeesian v. video games:

[youtube]LpFk5F-S_hI[/youtube]

part 1 is more about her general philosophy and is well worth a watch.

I watched most of it, but honestly, I'm not that interested in the moral character of Anita Sarkeesian. I don't know her, she isn't watching my kids, she's not my neighbor, so I don't care if she once moderated someone's YouTube comment. Her video is good. That's it. I can't speak for her ethics or morals. I'm not a fan of trying to find ways to dismiss things that clearly have value. For example, the Crommunist had a big hissyfit because I was posting on his blog and he didn't like that. For whatever reason, he didn't want me posting there. Maybe he thinks I'm a racistsexist slymepitter, maybe he just hates white men, maybe he just can't handle disagreement, I don't know. He insulted me and my family and called me out on his blog and on Twitter. There is no reason for me to personally like him, but I told him, and still maintain, that he does a good job with his blog. He often makes interesting posts and clearly tries to think outside the box. The fact he doesn't like me is no reason for me to dismiss everything he ever says.

Similarly, I don't know what Sarkeesian has or hasn't said in the past. I saw one video attacking her master's thesis. So what/ It doesn't matter who she is as a person, because I don't value her for her great morals. I just like her videos.

So you don't mind that she is neglecting to tell you information that would undermine her point? Or that she is biased? Do you like fox news :lol:

[debaser71]

I vote book report.

[BarnOwl]

Have any of you peeps here yet clicked on Brony's name? It takes you to his blog.

It's about neuroscience - or at least Brony's take on it - and, uh, My Little Pony.

It is all exceedingly strange.

A sampler:

This is a big experiment that I am doing on myself. The TL:DR version is that it is a combination art project and therapy. I have ADHD and Tourette Syndrome and I am going to build a computational model of the brain on the pages of this blog. What I mean by that is that I am going to look up all the little tiny pieces that science has discovered so far, and I am going model them and put them together in a way that makes their function sensible by sight. Then I am going to use that model to make connections between what science has discovered about the brain, and tie it to our minds. I want to translate structure and function to experience, and I want to do a way that works like a “Human Brain for Dummies.” That will apply to all of us.

Why am I going to do this? at least two reasons that I can figure out. I want understand myself and I want to do it in a way that will help other folks understand the brain too. I have a belief that I have a mutation that lets me deal with conceptual information differently than “most people” (whatever that means, that’s the point). For the justification about why this is not just the same average, arrogant statement that you have read everyone else, keep reading. Or not. What is important is that I am really doing science here because the first and most important part is that this is all based on scientific consensus, and I am doing this work by looking of information that would prove me wrong at every point. Most people don’t realize that science is done by having an idea, and then trying to prove it wrong by looking for something that would by true if you are right.

Making love with his ego
Ziggy sucked up into his miiiiiind

[cunt]

Course, the old girl couldn't resist. In fact, I think Ophie has found her new cunt-kick:

http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterflies ... sentiment/
http://www.freezepage.com/1363127732ENULBVVVQY

Intriguing that the tweet which piqued her curiosity wasn't directed at her - would be even more intriguing if she has Blackford blocked/unfollowed on twitter...

Gotta love the logic of the commenters so far.

Remove the embed: You're all immature and can't appreciate the beauty of an old womans body. Not like me, a sophisticated man of the world.
Leave the image: You're all immature and you're harassing Ophelia and intentionally trying to make her feel bad about her body. Let's boo-hoo about it for 6 months.

[JackSkeptic]

Course, the old girl couldn't resist. In fact, I think Ophie has found her new cunt-kick:

http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterflies ... sentiment/
http://www.freezepage.com/1363127732ENULBVVVQY

Intriguing that the tweet which piqued her curiosity wasn't directed at her - would be even more intriguing if she has Blackford blocked/unfollowed on twitter...

She had to wait a respectable amount of time to get over her 'upset' and 'ruined life' but hey, victim points is victim points right?

Of course it's all our fault, wouldn't want to blame the poster after all who posted on an open site.

[EdwardGemmer]

I don't have a problem with the idea that sexism in video games is real, and that it should be considered in a serious, rational manner. But Sarkeesian's book report has effectively fucked that up for the next few years, and THAT is what pisses me off.

I don't see how that's possible - she's not even done with it. Also, she references a bajillion games in her first video. But what is good about it is that it is like a book report. Instead of talking about how she feels for 20 minutes followed by a brief snippet of a game, she presents lots of games and lots of facts and very little personal opinion.

SOURCES are not ANALYSIS. That was literally parroting facts. I can get 100% of the "content" she delivered in ten minutes or so on wikipedia.

THAT is what 160K gets? and yes, I am in fact, bizarrely, basing my opinion of the series on what i have seen of said series. Were she to suddenly provide ACTUAL ANALYSIS, then I would in fact change my fucking opinion.

Do you actually understand what the difference is between analysis and blind regurgitation?

No, apparently I don't. She clearly throws in a few opinions, but emphasis on few. "I could get this off of Wikipedia," may be true. You can get many things from other sources. Is it packaged as cleanly as on her video? Probably not. It's like arguing that evolution textbooks are garbage because you could just read the primary sources. Again, you aren't required to like it. But good criticism isn't based solely on your personal opinion. If you took someone who knew nothing about video games or video game cliches, would this be a helpful video? Yes, I think.

[AbsurdWalls]

Have any of you peeps here yet clicked on Brony's name? It takes you to his blog.

It's about neuroscience - or at least Brony's take on it - and, uh, My Little Pony.

It is all exceedingly strange...

... Since I have spent the last two months with this brain modeling among my primary interests, the act of bringing it into reality made me get emotionally sensitive about it in weird ways…

I can sympathise. I'm just finishing my thesis on brain modelling and I'm feeling pretty emotionally sensitive about it at the moment.

[Gumby]

Course, the old girl couldn't resist. In fact, I think Ophie has found her new cunt-kick:

http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterflies ... sentiment/
http://www.freezepage.com/1363127732ENULBVVVQY

Intriguing that the tweet which piqued her curiosity wasn't directed at her - would be even more intriguing if she has Blackford blocked/unfollowed on twitter...

From her post:
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd24 ... e846e1.png

Hey, I'm famous! :lol:

Ophie and her commenters are getting it all wrong, of course. Ophie neglected to mention that in that very same post of mine, I said I didn't care whose body - attractive or not - her head was pasted on, it was WRONG to do. The fact that the pic was WRONG was universally agreed to by the whole damn site, but these facts wouldn't mesh with Ophelia Benson's dual victimization/Slymepit is horrible narratives.

And her commenters are already horking up the "freeze peach" meme, and similar such standard nonsense. Idiots.

[EdwardGemmer]

In three or four sentences, Myers has pretty much proven that he knows dick all about video games, its culture, basic economics or how technology works. He's also shown that he's incredibly myopic and American-centric in his thinking.

I don't take all that out of it. He's just lazy. He could say, Nintendo never did this, but someone else did. This would be a factual statement. Instead, he says it is "revealing" that Nintendo didn't do this. What is revealed is left to your own imagination but obviously the insinuation is that Nintendo hates women. But hey, he didn't actually say that, so why on earth would anyone assume that? Lazy lazy lazy.

because that's his intent in saying it

Yeah I get that but it also gives him an out. By not being clear on what's actually saying, he can alwasy weasel out of it, which is something he often does (re: calling The Hellfire Club guy a liar, then claiming he didn't, then claiming it was a misunderstanding). It's weasel language that attacks someone without nailing down what the criticism. Kind of like the Social Justice 101 handbook that you aren't allowed to read but can always get judged for not following.

[JackSkeptic]

Oh EU posted there, wonder if they know who 'she' might be?

As to disgusting pic no one said the woman was only the fact Benson's head was on it. People felt bad for Benson. They are SO BAD at evidence.

[Gumby]

Oh EU posted there, wonder if they know who 'she' might be?

As to disgusting pic no one said the woman was only the fact Benson's head was on it. People felt bad for Benson. They are SO BAD at evidence.

Intentionally SO BAD at evidence.

[EdwardGemmer]

Bullshit. She COMPLETELY ignored cultural influences on the designers of both video games. The fact someone ELSE did not doesn't erase the fact that Sarkeesian did. What the fuck dude, you keep trying to make it sound like she did anything but the bare minimum for a "C" on her little video book report. Why?

Because for her to get a C, there has to be someone else who can at least get an A. I haven't had time to explore the entire internet for youtube videos about women and games, but please link me to any that are far superior. She talked at length about the history of the damsel in distress - King Kong, World War 2, Popeye, etc. I think it is legitimate criticism to say she didn't bring up the Japanese culture in the development of these games, but hey, legitimate criticism adds to the discussion. The games she brings up were still wildly, wildly popular in the United States and it's not like the United States had never encountered the trope before Japan brought it to them.

So Mario was popular because he was a fat italian guy, or because it was the best platforming game to come out at that time.

Back then, with small teams making these games, 95% of the effort went into gameplay, graphics and level design. You can see it start to branch out in the 90s as there was more competition then.

Stating nintendo games in the mid-late 80s were popular is like saying a lot of people went to see the first movies. OK, and? Was it actually about the message in the movies or was it about the fact that there were now "moving" pictures? Early games were about the technology and figuring out what gameplay was popular, couple that with 95% of developers being male(who would shocking make the characters male) and there you go. Let's see, spend a lot of billable hours working on a story, or shoehorn old fable involving princess in tower guarded by dragon as story, hire 3 less people... sounds good!

I totally agree. This isn't about judging people who made videogames in the 80's. OTOH, it is 2013. Mario games still don't have playable women characters, so there is time to think about why this is.

[cunt]

Freeze peach. Oh god I hope nobody notices I don't have a distinct personality and sense of humour, they're looking right at me. FREEZE PEACH!

*awkwardly laughs*

Freeze peach.

[windy]

I'll post this here since the Nugent threads seem to have died down...

http://www.michaelnugent.com/2013/03/08 ... ent-198116

But they don’t want to hear about feminism or social justice. Why? Because they don’t care about those things. They want to hear about how evil the religious are. They want to be reminded just how stupid people who believe in bigfoot are. They want to drink and laugh about how superior they are to ignorant, cognitively dissonant woo-peddlers of all stripes because it makes them feel good about themselves.

Feminism, of course, doesn’t do that – in fact, for many of them it’s quite the opposite, since it forces them to acknowledge that the things they do are sometimes bad (not irredeemably bad, but bad nonetheless) and they need to think about that and – gasp – maybe even think about changing their behavior to make things better for women.

Hence why one of the people they’re angriest at is PZ, since he used to be almost entirely about sticking it to the godbots (hard) but who started to include a lot more social justice in his posts.

So what we need to stress it that it’s more a case of “Wake up. The atheist community isn’t an exclusive white dude-bro frat party anymore. You’re still going to get to hear the about the stuff that makes you feel superior, but every now and then you’re going to have to deal with the fact that there are people who aren’t you who want to discuss things important to them.”

Is this projected guilt about being a fan of PZ for his atheism blogging and belatedly waking up to social justice issues? If "sticking it to the godbots" is only attractive to "dudebros", wouldn't that mean that Pharyngula was an "exclusive white dude-bro frat party" until PZ started talking about feminism? (Hint: it wasn't.)

What these newly converted don't seem to get is that some of us have been capable of getting our social justice jollies elsewhere without explicit instruction from PZ. I'll grant him the part about laughing at "ignorant, cognitively dissonant woo-peddlers of all stripes", though.

[Jan Steen]

http://i.imgur.com/gaYAYWD.jpg

[EdwardGemmer]

Look, I don't know what your grading standards are. Her video clearly has a point, has many, many examples, she shows her work, and the presentation is great. What is she missing?

any form of original thought? something that isn't a regurgitation of what other people have done? Not mistaking adeptness with software as talent?

the presentation is something a high school film student could do. FUck, do you think that kind of video is hard nowadays? An even HALF-decent camera, a copy of premier pro or final cut pro, a mike that doesn't suck for the voiceover work and a decent laptop is all you need. Five grand gets you the gear. Maybe six if you want nice fast hard drives and many of them.

That's the hardware cost for this shit, and i'm including the video game consoles.

I don't have any of that stuff or five grand to spend on it, so I don't know (and don't care). I can appreciate movies without sitting there thinking about how much money they spent on making them and whether it should have cost that much. I don't care. Either it is good or not good. I can understand - Sarkeesian did not go into things you would prefer her to talk about. However, for what is presented, she did a great job. But it is also incomplete - even the damsels in distress part still has at least another part to it.

[EdwardGemmer]

The whole tribalism discussion is a total distractor and a waste of time, the same as the arguments about who is the most moral.

The whole of Nugent's approach missed what is important about this, the clash of ideas. That's what my last post there was trying to convey but it's like pissing in the wind as people wander off to discuss irrelevances instead of sticking to the whole point of disagreement.

In the meantime I hope some from FtB come here but if gets to a 'He said this, she said that' discussion or stuck on petty semantics it won't get anywhere.

I don't think it is a waste of time - it actually makes a lot of sense. Why do otherwise reasonably intelligent people turn off their brains and attack others mased on insignificant or imaginary differences? The idea of tribalism and loyalty seems to be the most likely culprit. Where it fails is where it assumes all tribes are the same. Clearly the slymepit values things like free speech and respect for diversity as important, whereas places like Pharyngula value yelling the f word.

[EdwardGemmer]

Hopefully in the next mario game they'll give him massive tits and a 18 inch dildo instead of Yoshi. Now he battles patriarchy and societally enforced gender-roles.

I hope that he can't walk or wear shoes because that enforces ableism.

[ConcentratedH2O, OM]

fuck punctuation i go ee cummings from now

Hehe. You said 'cum'.

[cunt]

Hopefully in the next mario game they'll give him massive tits and a 18 inch dildo instead of Yoshi. Now he battles patriarchy and societally enforced gender-roles.

I hope that he can't walk or wear shoes because that enforces ableism.

Of course not. Marios legs were blown off by an IED.

[Aneris]

[...] They want to drink and laugh about how superior they are [...] because it makes them feel good about themselves. Feminism, of course, [...]

This!

[...] doesn’t do that – in fact, for many of them it’s quite the opposite, [...]

Awww, nooo! That was close. He almost had me.

[JackSkeptic]

The whole tribalism discussion is a total distractor and a waste of time, the same as the arguments about who is the most moral.

The whole of Nugent's approach missed what is important about this, the clash of ideas. That's what my last post there was trying to convey but it's like pissing in the wind as people wander off to discuss irrelevances instead of sticking to the whole point of disagreement.

In the meantime I hope some from FtB come here but if gets to a 'He said this, she said that' discussion or stuck on petty semantics it won't get anywhere.

I don't think it is a waste of time - it actually makes a lot of sense. Why do otherwise reasonably intelligent people turn off their brains and attack others mased on insignificant or imaginary differences? The idea of tribalism and loyalty seems to be the most likely culprit. Where it fails is where it assumes all tribes are the same. Clearly the slymepit values things like free speech and respect for diversity as important, whereas places like Pharyngula value yelling the f word.

Because it gets nowhere. It changes nothing. Any conclusion has no utility. It does not further the argument. More over it totally misses the point that in order to reach any understanding there has to be a free exchange of ideas.

That was completely ignored by Nugent and several commentators. Waste of time. I posted about that on the link I gave which made it clearer. An opportunity was missed as the few from FtB (such as Oolon who loves drama) and Eu managed to completely derail what may have been a more fruitful discussion. Those that did that were best ignored as it shouted down all the reasonable posts of which there were many. There was too much noise about irrelevancies.

[EdwardGemmer]

There can be no doubt that games were and are marketed to boys and men. I don't think it is even a problem, and Sarkeesian doesn't exactly present it as some sort of evidence of the evil Nintendo. More, it is an observation - one that can be easily modified now, as evidenced by the guy who modified Donkey Kong. The Damsel in Distress is a cliche - of course women can be a "prize." Men's whole lives can be more or less premised on the idea that being more successful can lead to more sex. Video games which tap into our fantasies are no different.

I would agree with the "were" part but not so sure about the "are". I think they are now marketed to both genders, and that's what's brought the change in male/female characters ratio.
Videogames are a business. I don't think companies care a lot about social justice, but they care about the money they make. And if they find out that there's a lot of girls/women out there who want to buy games, and would buy more if they had a certain type of characters, they probably will end up making that kind of game to boost their sales.

I don't think Sarkeesian presents as evidence of the evil Nintendo, but from what I can gather she presents it as evidence of a sexist against women mindset. I think that's a too simplistic analysis. After all, the fact that tomb raider, resident evil, portal and mirror's edge have female protagonists says nothing about sexism against men.
I think those games can be used to analyze the culture of a time and place, and maybe even to wonder about men's and women's way of thinking, and how all these things influence the media, but it seems to me that she's just looking for examples to increase women's victim points.

For example, the original Silent Hill game has a father brave all the ghosts and monsters in the town in order to save his daughter. In the movie, the character was replaced by the girl's mother. Some people think it was done because women look more vulnerable and would increase the tension. Some people think it was because society considers that a father cannot love their children and just risk everything to protect them, like a mother would. One of them is sexist against women, one of them against men.

Is it one thing? Both? none? This thing requires a deeper analysis, one that doesn't start with the premise of "there is sexism and it's directed against women".

True, though in Sarkeesian's defense, her first video was not about sexism in videogames but about the history of the damsel in distress trope. Her second video promises to address a point you brought up - how are things now for this trope? OTOH the great thing about something that is good is that people can take multiple things away from it. No doubt Phayngula will take away that Nintendo has a plot to destroy women, while people with brains may take away something else entirely. It is interesting to see how videogames reflect what companies think we want to buy and play.

[EdwardGemmer]

LAIDEEEES and Gnlmn we announce the retirement of the 9000 time champion steersman for most Pointless obtuse and verbose poster for our NEW CHALLENGER Edward the Teddy Gemmer in a match we have called Descent into the Depths of Well meaning compromise.
Look we all would like to be fair to them, but are these sjw's playing by the rules of 'standard social discourse'?

I will take this vague criticism as evidence that you hate everyone named Edward. 700 oppression points to me. Please read Edward Justice 101 before speaking again.

[Aneris]

True, though in Sarkeesian's defense, her first video was not about sexism in videogames but about the history of the damsel in distress trope. Her second video promises to address a point you brought up - how are things now for this trope? OTOH the great thing about something that is good is that people can take multiple things away from it. No doubt Phayngula will take away that Nintendo has a plot to destroy women, while people with brains may take away something else entirely. It is interesting to see how videogames reflect what companies think we want to buy and play.

Damsel in Distress -- Be warned, TVTropes ruins your life.

[EdwardGemmer]

Hopefully in the next mario game they'll give him massive tits and a 18 inch dildo instead of Yoshi. Now he battles patriarchy and societally enforced gender-roles.

I hope that he can't walk or wear shoes because that enforces ableism.

Of course not. Marios legs were blown off by an IED.

And Luigi blew his butt off.

[Percentage]

Wow, Crommunist has really been pumping out content lately. It's basically all the FtB splooge, distilled into a fairly concise few posts. Not bad, even if it is mostly in service of stupidity.

[Steersman]

LAIDEEEES and Gnlmn we announce the retirement of the 9000 time champion steersman for most Pointless obtuse and verbose poster for our NEW CHALLENGER Edward the Teddy Gemmer in a match we have called Descent into the Depths of Well meaning compromise.
Look we all would like to be fair to them, but are these sjw's playing by the rules of 'standard social discourse'?

I will take this vague criticism as evidence that you hate everyone named Edward. 700 oppression points to me. Please read Edward Justice 101 before speaking again.

And Steersman. And those who are nautically inclined ....

[ConcentratedH2O, OM]

http://i.imgur.com/gaYAYWD.jpg

Love it!

[EdwardGemmer]

Wow, Crommunist has really been pumping out content lately. It's basically all the FtB splooge, distilled into a fairly concise few posts. Not bad, even if it is mostly in service of stupidity.

I wish he weren't so sensitive, because he has lots of interesting things to say and talk about.

[Steersman]

http://i.imgur.com/gaYAYWD.jpg

:lol: You're getting better and better all the time ... :-)

[BannedAid]

I watched most of it, but honestly, I'm not that interested in the moral character of Anita Sarkeesian. I don't know her, she isn't watching my kids, she's not my neighbor, so I don't care if she once moderated someone's YouTube comment. Her video is good. That's it. I can't speak for her ethics or morals. I'm not a fan of trying to find ways to dismiss things that clearly have value. For example, the Crommunist had a big hissyfit because I was posting on his blog and he didn't like that. For whatever reason, he didn't want me posting there. Maybe he thinks I'm a racistsexist slymepitter, maybe he just hates white men, maybe he just can't handle disagreement, I don't know. He insulted me and my family and called me out on his blog and on Twitter. There is no reason for me to personally like him, but I told him, and still maintain, that he does a good job with his blog. He often makes interesting posts and clearly tries to think outside the box. The fact he doesn't like me is no reason for me to dismiss everything he ever says.

Similarly, I don't know what Sarkeesian has or hasn't said in the past. I saw one video attacking her master's thesis. So what/ It doesn't matter who she is as a person, because I don't value her for her great morals. I just like her videos.

He could have left out some of the character stuff, sure, but I thought he landed enough solid blows on the substance of her argument to make the video worthwhile.

The video on her master's thesis (do you mean part 1 of the video I linked?) exposes her biases and some essential flaws in her reasoning that have carried over into her critiques of pop culture. I certainly won't hold it against you that you like her videos. Personally, I think her arguments are too one-sided and oversimplified to contribute to the debate.

[KiwiInOz]

http://i.imgur.com/gaYAYWD.jpg

Consider me another fanboi who is unworthy to even grovel at your feet in adoration.

[Steersman]

The whole tribalism discussion is a total distractor and a waste of time, the same as the arguments about who is the most moral.

I agree, it's just a smokescreen. The "dialogue" threads always seem to attract those FTB defenders who don't believe in dialogue and insist in repeating that over and over. But the problem with trying to discuss ideas at this point is that the well has been poisoned, filled in and cemented over.

Don’t think I can really agree with that, at least the first part. Seems to me that one of the primary criticisms that “we” have – though it is not the only thing that unites this “tribe” – of FTB and company is they tend to be problematically prone to group-think. And while I think Chas has a bit of bias on the question – I see that you’ve also noticed that he has recently flounced from that discussion on Nugent’s post – I also think he has some justification in suggesting that there is some evidence of that here. For several examples of many, the apparent pile-ons here over Watson’s “Galileogate”, Sally Strange’s supposed authorship of a rape threat against herself, and the accusations floating about recently that Oolon was the source of the Benson photoshop – which I note that only Tina seems to have apologized for.

Where I think Chas goes off the rails is in not being cognizant of some significant differences: group-think as an opinion imposed on slaves versus autonomous individuals thinking and reaching the same conclusion even if that might be based on common premises, particularly if those are open to review rather than being seen as infallible dogma.

But in a larger sense, I think the issue of group-think has a great degree of relevance to society in general, and that there is more than a little justification for using this little “love spat” we’re currently engaged in as an entrée to a greater understanding of the processes involved, their consequences, and their implications. For instance, and briefly (for a change) so as not to belabour the point excessively, I think there are some significant physiological processes that undergird group-think, and that it bears a great degree of resemblance to the swarming of locusts. And to the somewhat apocryphal urban legend that the menstrual cycles of women living in close quarters tend to synchronize. But one of the best and most tangible illustrations of that that I’ve seen was on Jerry Coyne’s site sometime ago of the synchronization of 32 metronomes:

[youtube]JWToUATLGzs[/youtube]

Certainly some benefits in group solidarity of one sort or another, a solidarity that is manifested or enforced by syncronization of type or another. Unfortunately or not, not all groups have the same degree of credibilty or worth.

[cunt]

Hopefully in the next mario game they'll give him massive tits and a 18 inch dildo instead of Yoshi. Now he battles patriarchy and societally enforced gender-roles.

I hope that he can't walk or wear shoes because that enforces ableism.

Of course not. Marios legs were blown off by an IED.

And Luigi blew his butt off.

Luigi was held captive by the elite republican guard for 3 months. When they fled the city he used a shattered piece of glass to remove his hands and escape. He was eventually gunned down by american forces.

[EdwardGemmer]

I watched most of it, but honestly, I'm not that interested in the moral character of Anita Sarkeesian. I don't know her, she isn't watching my kids, she's not my neighbor, so I don't care if she once moderated someone's YouTube comment. Her video is good. That's it. I can't speak for her ethics or morals. I'm not a fan of trying to find ways to dismiss things that clearly have value. For example, the Crommunist had a big hissyfit because I was posting on his blog and he didn't like that. For whatever reason, he didn't want me posting there. Maybe he thinks I'm a racistsexist slymepitter, maybe he just hates white men, maybe he just can't handle disagreement, I don't know. He insulted me and my family and called me out on his blog and on Twitter. There is no reason for me to personally like him, but I told him, and still maintain, that he does a good job with his blog. He often makes interesting posts and clearly tries to think outside the box. The fact he doesn't like me is no reason for me to dismiss everything he ever says.

Similarly, I don't know what Sarkeesian has or hasn't said in the past. I saw one video attacking her master's thesis. So what/ It doesn't matter who she is as a person, because I don't value her for her great morals. I just like her videos.

He could have left out some of the character stuff, sure, but I thought he landed enough solid blows on the substance of her argument to make the video worthwhile.

The video on her master's thesis (do you mean part 1 of the video I linked?) exposes her biases and some essential flaws in her reasoning that have carried over into her critiques of pop culture. I certainly won't hold it against you that you like her videos. Personally, I think her arguments are too one-sided and oversimplified to contribute to the debate.

I think what I like is that she actually presents lots of facts in a pretty matter of fact and unemotional way. Too often we get people who substitute emotion and shame for facts because they are too lazy to do the work. Sarkeesian presents facts and is usually pretty light on the emotion and fearmongering, leaving all that to the people watching.

[ConcentratedH2O, OM]

Is P'shopping your job, Jan Steen? Or just a hobby?

[windy]

Luigi was held captive by the elite republican guard for 3 months. When they fled the city he used a shattered piece of glass to remove his hands and escape. He was eventually gunned down by american forces.

[youtube]DHacaO7WK7Y[/youtube]

[Steersman]

[youtube]UAeqVGP-GPM[/youtube]

:) :clap: +1 Internet

Not least for that being one of my favorite movies. And not least for the fact that I had been looking for some time for a clip that had that bit about “our president is a man of the people, but still a man ….”

[Apples]

Course, the old girl couldn't resist. In fact, I think Ophie has found her new cunt-kick:

http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterflies ... sentiment/
http://www.freezepage.com/1363127732ENULBVVVQY

Intriguing that the tweet which piqued her curiosity wasn't directed at her - would be even more intriguing if she has Blackford blocked/unfollowed on twitter...

Ah, yes. Of course, when Nugget put up his post about how "slymepitters are writhing in agony about tasteless photoshop," Ophie claimed that he was "destroying her." So now she accidentally on purpose stumbled upon the dastardly image? Riiight. First she had to "stumble upon" Blackford's post (she reads his twitter because she is so interested in what he has to say), then she googled the unattributed quotation in Blackford's post (because if someone mentions Ophie she is on it like white on rice), then she perused the pit (because stalking and harassment and shock/horror) and WHOOPS clicked on a random link.... and then posted it on her own blog so her fans can feel her pain for eternity.

Well, Ophie, looks like you blew all your potential sympathy points on one post. This one's for you, Ophie:

[youtube]ism2a3KYg0c[/youtube]

[EdwardGemmer]

Hopefully in the next mario game they'll give him massive tits and a 18 inch dildo instead of Yoshi. Now he battles patriarchy and societally enforced gender-roles.

I hope that he can't walk or wear shoes because that enforces ableism.

Of course not. Marios legs were blown off by an IED.

And Luigi blew his butt off.

Luigi was held captive by the elite republican guard for 3 months. When they fled the city he used a shattered piece of glass to remove his hands and escape. He was eventually gunned down by american forces.

Hmmmm...

http://superhappycashcow.com/pic/Selene ... /luigi.jpg

http://lh5.ggpht.com/-aBz01_M6l1U/UHVM6 ... imgmax=800

Obviously Nintendo is sexist.