Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

Old subthreads
Wonky Donkey
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20931

Post by Wonky Donkey »

Pz is culpable for his readers comments because he chooses not to moderate them when is perfectly happy to moderate others. Thus signalling that he approves of them implicitly.

This is the core of his hypocrisy, and his cowardice.

It's sickening to see what a maggot the former giant has become in a few short years.

katamari Damassi
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20932

Post by katamari Damassi »

cunt wrote:Nice to see PZ's dehumanisation campaign is starting to bear fruit.
124
satanaugustine
13 May 2013 at 3:23 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

I loathe Justicar. He is pure malevolence and hatred. I honestly believe that he would be jumping for joy if Jen or Rebecca were murdered. If Justicar were to commit suicide, I’d consider that a positive result for humanity. I know that is a horrible thing to say about fellow human beings, but I’m not talking about them, I’m talking about Justicar.
I hope the irony isn't lost on the FfTB crowd. Oh what am I saying? Of course it is.

welch
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20933

Post by welch »

Wonky Donkey wrote:Pz is culpable for his readers comments because he chooses not to moderate them when is perfectly happy to moderate others. Thus signalling that he approves of them implicitly.

This is the core of his hypocrisy, and his cowardice.

It's sickening to see what a maggot the former giant has become in a few short years.
When was he a giant? He was fucking no-one until Dawkins mentioned him, and then he got some attention. And years before FTB and elevatorgate, he was doing the same shit he does now, it's just that no one minded the targets

Wonky Donkey
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20934

Post by Wonky Donkey »

True enough. Retracted.

EdwardGemmer
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20935

Post by EdwardGemmer »

welch wrote:
Wonky Donkey wrote:Pz is culpable for his readers comments because he chooses not to moderate them when is perfectly happy to moderate others. Thus signalling that he approves of them implicitly.

This is the core of his hypocrisy, and his cowardice.

It's sickening to see what a maggot the former giant has become in a few short years.
When was he a giant? He was fucking no-one until Dawkins mentioned him, and then he got some attention. And years before FTB and elevatorgate, he was doing the same shit he does now, it's just that no one minded the targets
Yeah I had never heard of PZ until December when I tried to post on his website.

Za-zen
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20936

Post by Za-zen »

I first became aware of pz lyers and his troop of balloons during the EG kerfuffle, and only because Dawkins decided to respond to the screeches of "this was a potential rape, which makes it as bad as rape, which makes it worse than hiroshima!" With his "catch a fucking grip you loons" which later became know as the infamous "dear muslima"

Worth noting for those unaware, who have swallowed the gargle, Dawkins was not responding to watson, he was addressing the fuckwits who were blowing it out of all proportion, directly, at one of the main fuckwit haunts. Namely pzpukepen.

Watson of course didn't miss the opportunity to scream, Rape! He's raping ME!

Submariner
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20937

Post by Submariner »

welch wrote:
Wonky Donkey wrote:Pz is culpable for his readers comments because he chooses not to moderate them when is perfectly happy to moderate others. Thus signalling that he approves of them implicitly.

This is the core of his hypocrisy, and his cowardice.

It's sickening to see what a maggot the former giant has become in a few short years.
When was he a giant? He was fucking no-one until Dawkins mentioned him, and then he got some attention. And years before FTB and elevatorgate, he was doing the same shit he does now, it's just that no one minded the targets

One good thing PeeZuss did was the courtier's reply. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courtier%27s_Reply

Not much since, though.

free thoughtpolice
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20938

Post by free thoughtpolice »

Gefan wrote:In case anyone had not noticed, The Patriarchy (TM) has just claimed another tragic victim:

[youtube]lWqRKZbrzp0[/youtube]

Party at Mykeru's place.
Mykeru has been eerily silent. I can only hope he wasn't eaten by the beautiful but deadly Jeancasaurus that was prowling in the vicinity of the courtroom during the Arias trial.

Tony Parsehole
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20939

Post by Tony Parsehole »

welch wrote:
Wonky Donkey wrote:Pz is culpable for his readers comments because he chooses not to moderate them when is perfectly happy to moderate others. Thus signalling that he approves of them implicitly.

This is the core of his hypocrisy, and his cowardice.

It's sickening to see what a maggot the former giant has become in a few short years.
When was he a giant?
Well I've always considered him a giant arse if that helps?

AbsurdWalls
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20940

Post by AbsurdWalls »

Submariner wrote:
welch wrote:
Wonky Donkey wrote:Pz is culpable for his readers comments because he chooses not to moderate them when is perfectly happy to moderate others. Thus signalling that he approves of them implicitly.

This is the core of his hypocrisy, and his cowardice.

It's sickening to see what a maggot the former giant has become in a few short years.
When was he a giant? He was fucking no-one until Dawkins mentioned him, and then he got some attention. And years before FTB and elevatorgate, he was doing the same shit he does now, it's just that no one minded the targets

One good thing PeeZuss did was the courtier's reply. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courtier%27s_Reply

Not much since, though.
I've never been convinced that is a clear-cut fallacy. It is often used to excuse a refusal to do research. People were using it to defend RW over the evopsych thing.

You also end up with this sort of thing:
The bane of many American physics grad students is teaching introductory physics to premed students. Due to the nature of med school admissions, one ends up with classrooms full of students who cannot afford to get anything less than an A+++ if they hope to make it to (Ivy League) Med School. Further, due to the nature of medicine, these students also approach physics as something that’s meant to be memorized by rote. Note to premeds: every time you ask your TA what the relevant formula is so that you can memorize it, you kill a fraction of that poor grad student’s soul.

Not all premeds are like this. In fact, it may be true that most aren’t. But it sure needles the hell out of grad students when they have to teach those that are. It’s no surprise then, that there’s an uneasy tension between doctors and physicists.

So you’ll have to excuse me when I stuck out my tongue and blew a big raspberry to the medical community after I heard about the following paper:
A mathematical model for the determination of total area under glucose tolerance and other metabolic curves. M.M. Tai. Diabetes Care, Vol 17, Issue 2 152-154
http://fliptomato.wordpress.com/2007/03 ... citations/

Steersman
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20941

Post by Steersman »

Dick Strawkins wrote:It is interesting, and unfortunately sad, to see how far Ophelia Benson has strayed from her and Jeremy Stangfords original vision for Butterflies and Wheels.
A lot of the original stuff is missing from her current archives but it's still retrievable using the wayback machine.

http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www ... wheels.com



It's a pity because there was some good stuff there before.
For example 'the woolly thinkers guide to rhetoric', a satirical piece, I guess, although reading it now it could easily be a mistaken for an instruction manual for anyone who wants to join the online team FTB/Aplus.
The Woolly-Thinker's Guide to Rhetoric
<snip>
Use obscurity
Generate such a tangled clot of verbiage that opponents cannot be sure you haven't said something profound.
That “Wooly-Thinker’s Guide” is awesome – “hoist by own-petard” quality. And that song is entirely apropos.

But, as a minor detail, I think it was Stangroom ….

Dick Strawkins
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20942

Post by Dick Strawkins »

AbsurdWalls wrote:
Submariner wrote:
welch wrote:
Wonky Donkey wrote:Pz is culpable for his readers comments because he chooses not to moderate them when is perfectly happy to moderate others. Thus signalling that he approves of them implicitly.

This is the core of his hypocrisy, and his cowardice.

It's sickening to see what a maggot the former giant has become in a few short years.
When was he a giant? He was fucking no-one until Dawkins mentioned him, and then he got some attention. And years before FTB and elevatorgate, he was doing the same shit he does now, it's just that no one minded the targets

One good thing PeeZuss did was the courtier's reply. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courtier%27s_Reply

Not much since, though.
I've never been convinced that is a clear-cut fallacy. It is often used to excuse a refusal to do research. People were using it to defend RW over the evopsych thing.

You also end up with this sort of thing:
The bane of many American physics grad students is teaching introductory physics to premed students. Due to the nature of med school admissions, one ends up with classrooms full of students who cannot afford to get anything less than an A+++ if they hope to make it to (Ivy League) Med School. Further, due to the nature of medicine, these students also approach physics as something that’s meant to be memorized by rote. Note to premeds: every time you ask your TA what the relevant formula is so that you can memorize it, you kill a fraction of that poor grad student’s soul.

Not all premeds are like this. In fact, it may be true that most aren’t. But it sure needles the hell out of grad students when they have to teach those that are. It’s no surprise then, that there’s an uneasy tension between doctors and physicists.

So you’ll have to excuse me when I stuck out my tongue and blew a big raspberry to the medical community after I heard about the following paper:
A mathematical model for the determination of total area under glucose tolerance and other metabolic curves. M.M. Tai. Diabetes Care, Vol 17, Issue 2 152-154
http://fliptomato.wordpress.com/2007/03 ... citations/
The courtiers reply is a good piece of writing. It works when applied to pseudosciences that have no real basis in fact. It doesn't work with evolutionary psychology for the simple reason that the problem with most published EP is one of badly done science rather than working with an implausible theory (remember, the basic theory behind EP is 'evolution') So long as you can find one or two decent EP papers then the courtiers reply will fail.
Ironically the courtiers reply is ideal when dealing with unsupported radfem ideas like patriarchy theory and rape culture.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20943

Post by Dick Strawkins »

Steersman wrote:
Dick Strawkins wrote:It is interesting, and unfortunately sad, to see how far Ophelia Benson has strayed from her and Jeremy Stangfords original vision for Butterflies and Wheels.
A lot of the original stuff is missing from her current archives but it's still retrievable using the wayback machine.

http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www ... wheels.com



It's a pity because there was some good stuff there before.
For example 'the woolly thinkers guide to rhetoric', a satirical piece, I guess, although reading it now it could easily be a mistaken for an instruction manual for anyone who wants to join the online team FTB/Aplus.
The Woolly-Thinker's Guide to Rhetoric
<snip>
Use obscurity
Generate such a tangled clot of verbiage that opponents cannot be sure you haven't said something profound.
That “Wooly-Thinker’s Guide” is awesome – “hoist by own-petard” quality. And that song is entirely apropos.

But, as a minor detail, I think it was Stangroom ….
You are correct, it was Jeremy Stangroom.
BTW - just for you, go back to the first archived B and W page from 2002 and you'll find it contains several articles on Pinkers 'The Blank Slate'!

Aneris
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20944

Post by Aneris »

Though Justicar/IntegralMath videos aren't primarily about being helpful to the person addressed. Jen is no difference in that case. At best it helps his viewers (including the person addressed) to avoid similar pitfalls, or remove material that doesn't do them a favor. He is essentially the cop he was before. The "take some stupidity and use its narrative structure to attach criticism" idea is used by PZ Myers as well as Thunderf00t. Making it personal was one of the key things that helped them to get there were they are (unlike Dawkins abd others were it is far more abstract).

d4m10n
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20945

Post by d4m10n »

I'm not particularly keen on the concept of the “Courtier’s Reply” mostly because I've seen it misused so often to dismiss actual substantive criticisms of philosophy of religion as practised by various New Atheists. Come to think of it, I've only very rarely seen it used well, in a situation where the analogy really works.

Certain kinds of freethinkers don't look for counterarguments so much as labels to pin on opponents. Calling someone a "sexist" for arguing about the breadth of anti-harassment policies or calling someone a "courtier" for asking for more theologically nuanced arguments are both means of dismissing an interlocutor rather than engaging with their ideas.

Guest

Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20946

Post by Guest »

ERV wrote:Congrats, Jen, your 'friends' suck, to the point where someone who doesnt particularly like you cares more about your physical well-being than your 'friends'!

*HIGHFIVE!!!*
in fact pz was actively trying to harm her as he broadcast attention much further and wider and didnt contact her to make sure her details were already taken down

with friends like these

Guest

Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20947

Post by Guest »

Submariner wrote:One good thing PeeZuss did was the courtier's reply. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courtier%27s_Reply
and then he started using it constantly

John Greg
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20948

Post by John Greg »

Anyone else having trouble with the Pit today? Slow and stumbly as cold mollasses for me.

JackSkeptic
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20949

Post by JackSkeptic »

Guest wrote:
Submariner wrote:One good thing PeeZuss did was the courtier's reply. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courtier%27s_Reply
and then he started using it constantly
The few times I have seen PMZ in discussions he seems incapable of thinking on his feet. Rather than do what the rest of us would, make excuses or try and change the subject, he goes into heavy abuse mode. That guarantees his opponent wins no matter how bad their own argument is.

With debating skills like that I would never want him anywhere near my 'team'.

Here is an example with a very irritating presuppositionalist apologetics advocate talking to PMZ at the Reason Rally. Now there is no reason why he should be polite but the issue here is that he has strictly not answered the question (it is a trick one and his answer uses the reasoning that is the subject of the question) and gets angry rather than walking away. Again, it is fine to get angry but as soon as you use very abusive words you lose the audience. This is nothing to do with the questioner either, it is to do with anyone listening in later which they certainly will do. The Questioner, Sy Ten, is a lot smarter, he stays calm and goads PMZ knowing her will get an easy win. And he did.

Contrast that to others who spoke to the same guy, such as Randi and Thunderfoot and the difference is marked.

I do not know why PMZ and his commentators are so extremely offensive and divisive all the time. It indicates an intellectual weakness and inability to reason. It is probably why he has lost so many friends, as he himself claims. I would not personally like to be associated with someone like that.

So anyone from FtB please learn to chill out, judge your words more carefully, use logic and reason where appropriate and stop treating everyone who disagrees with you as rapists and murderers. Until you do that I will continue to not take your points of view seriously. You are highly damaging to any cause you profess to believe in and it is one of many reasons you are often pictured as a bunch of clowns.

[youtube]oIp9OGnnfrA[/youtube]

Aneris
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20950

Post by Aneris »

l
PZ Myers wrote:You know what also annoys me about this? It’s explicitly counter to the goals of the wider atheist movement, in which we want people to step forward publicly and be the face of atheism. Look at that story about Gage Pulliam, for instance: he went public despite public opprobrium for atheists.

Jen puts her name and face up front for the cause. Regressive asshole atheists use that to harass her personally.

And conversely, this coward Justicar/Integralmath hides behind a pseudonym, bragging about how careful he is to keep his identity covered, while sniping at the atheists who have more guts than he does. You wanna know why he and other slymers are poison? Because they don’t stand up for any cause. They’re dead spots in the movement.
There are people, and women with their real names here...

Steersman
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20951

Post by Steersman »

Dick Strawkins wrote:
Steersman wrote: <snip>
But, as a minor detail, I think it was Stangroom ….
You are correct, it was Jeremy Stangroom.
BTW - just for you, go back to the first archived B and W page from 2002 and you'll find it contains several articles on Pinkers 'The Blank Slate'!
:-) Thanks.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20952

Post by Steersman »

d4m10n wrote:I'm not particularly keen on the concept of the “Courtier’s Reply” mostly because I've seen it misused so often to dismiss actual substantive criticisms of philosophy of religion as practised by various New Atheists. Come to think of it, I've only very rarely seen it used well, in a situation where the analogy really works.

Certain kinds of freethinkers don't look for counterarguments so much as labels to pin on opponents. Calling someone a "sexist" for arguing about the breadth of anti-harassment policies or calling someone a "courtier" for asking for more theologically nuanced arguments are both means of dismissing an interlocutor rather than engaging with their ideas.
Exactly – some cases where it is applicable and others where it is not.

But I find it rather amusing that a self-styled feminist – and a “professor of feminism” – tried virtually the same argument of the courtier’s reply on me. As I subsequently argued:
That looks rather much like the “Courtier’s Reply” (2). If the premise or hypothesis advanced at the outset – “Jehovah exists”; “marginalized groups cannot be guilty of -isms” – are ridiculous and untenable on their faces then calls for “educating oneself” in the associated arcana look no different from calls to drink the Kool-Aid (3).

JackSkeptic
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20953

Post by JackSkeptic »

Aneris wrote:l
PZ Myers wrote:You know what also annoys me about this? It’s explicitly counter to the goals of the wider atheist movement, in which we want people to step forward publicly and be the face of atheism. Look at that story about Gage Pulliam, for instance: he went public despite public opprobrium for atheists.

Jen puts her name and face up front for the cause. Regressive asshole atheists use that to harass her personally.

And conversely, this coward Justicar/Integralmath hides behind a pseudonym, bragging about how careful he is to keep his identity covered, while sniping at the atheists who have more guts than he does. You wanna know why he and other slymers are poison? Because they don’t stand up for any cause. They’re dead spots in the movement.
There are people, and women with their real names here...
He is also in complete denial of the obvious and accepted fact that many atheists have to keep themselves incognito to protect themselves from potential sackings, divorce or worse. It is fine for him to pontificate. He also ignores the fact that online names create a life and accountability of their own as people have an online reputation they build up over time. As he has trashed his own reputation maybe that's something he hasn't thought of.

He also has also provided NO evidence of the gross accusations he lays out. He left the skeptic movement years ago.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20954

Post by Steersman »

Aneris wrote:
PZ Myers wrote:You know what also annoys me about this?
<snip>
They’re dead spots in the movement.
There are people, and women with their real names here...
Seems that an even bigger “fact-fail” was Myers’ assertion or insinuation that Justicar’s original video had included identifying information from McCreight’s tweet when, according to Justicar’s subsequent one, he had redacted everything that he could from it.

I am becoming less and less impressed with PZ with every such indication of his bigotry and dogmatism, his “rush to judgement” on the slightest pretext. One A-class dickhead ….

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20955

Post by JackSkeptic »

Steersman wrote:
Aneris wrote:
PZ Myers wrote:You know what also annoys me about this?
<snip>
They’re dead spots in the movement.
There are people, and women with their real names here...
Seems that an even bigger “fact-fail” was Myers’ assertion or insinuation that Justicar’s original video had included identifying information from McCreight’s tweet when, according to Justicar’s subsequent one, he had redacted everything that he could from it.

I am becoming less and less impressed with PZ with every such indication of his bigotry and dogmatism, his “rush to judgement” on the slightest pretext. One A-class dickhead ….
Truth is the first casualty in their holy war of the righteous. They may as well rename FtB 'Pravda' and be done with it.

Southern
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20956

Post by Southern »

free thoughtpolice wrote: Mykeru has been eerily silent. I can only hope he wasn't eaten by the beautiful but deadly Jeancasaurus that was prowling in the vicinity of the courtroom during the Arias trial.
Isn't Mykeru over the A+ forums preparing the trolling of the century?

If he is, I'm expecting that to be like a real-life Viva la Fegel.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20957

Post by ConcentratedH2O, OM »

I noticed Meyers, during his bizarre and completely unselfconscious rant against Justacunt, gave a subtle telling off to Jenny Titwobble:
But apparently, even a grad student who blogs now and then is considered fair game for veiled threats by the slymers.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20958

Post by Southern »


Jen puts her name and face up front for the cause. Regressive asshole atheists use that to harass her personally.
I'd rather have her NOT put her face up front for anything on public display. Specially if she's giving that smile of hers. Children can be terrified.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20959

Post by Submariner »

ConcentratedH2O, OM wrote:I noticed Meyers, during his bizarre and completely unselfconscious rant against Justacunt, gave a subtle telling off to Jenny Titwobble:
But apparently, even a grad student who blogs now and then is considered fair game for veiled threats by the slymers.
Why are "Slymer" threats veiled but sycophant threats can be overt?

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20960

Post by Steersman »

Jack wrote:
Steersman wrote: <snip>
I am becoming less and less impressed with PZ with every such indication of his bigotry and dogmatism, his “rush to judgement” on the slightest pretext. One A-class dickhead ….
Truth is the first casualty in their holy war of the righteous. They may as well rename FtB 'Pravda' and be done with it.
Indeed. I think I'll start referring to "FfTB/Pravda" - maybe a new "hashtag"?

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20961

Post by Steersman »

Southern wrote:

Jen puts her name and face up front for the cause. Regressive asshole atheists use that to harass her personally.
I'd rather have her NOT put her face up front for anything on public display. Specially if she's giving that smile of hers. Children can be terrified.
Cheap-shot ....

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20962

Post by Aneris »

I ended up on the weird side of YouTube. Anyway, who of you did this? Confess already!

[youtube]5PHENQiJFzI[/youtube]

Guest

Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20963

Post by Guest »

Submariner wrote:
ConcentratedH2O, OM wrote:I noticed Meyers, during his bizarre and completely unselfconscious rant against Justacunt, gave a subtle telling off to Jenny Titwobble:
But apparently, even a grad student who blogs now and then is considered fair game for veiled threats by the slymers.
Why are "Slymer" threats veiled but sycophant threats can be overt?
because theyre not serious and you just cant take a joke and youre dumb and shut up

ThreeFlangedJavis
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20964

Post by ThreeFlangedJavis »

AbsurdWalls wrote:
Submariner wrote:
welch wrote:
Wonky Donkey wrote:Pz is culpable for his readers comments because he chooses not to moderate them when is perfectly happy to moderate others. Thus signalling that he approves of them implicitly.

This is the core of his hypocrisy, and his cowardice.

It's sickening to see what a maggot the former giant has become in a few short years.
When was he a giant? He was fucking no-one until Dawkins mentioned him, and then he got some attention. And years before FTB and elevatorgate, he was doing the same shit he does now, it's just that no one minded the targets

One good thing PeeZuss did was the courtier's reply. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courtier%27s_Reply

Not much since, though.
I've never been convinced that is a clear-cut fallacy. It is often used to excuse a refusal to do research. People were using it to defend RW over the evopsych thing.

You also end up with this sort of thing:
The bane of many American physics grad students is teaching introductory physics to premed students. Due to the nature of med school admissions, one ends up with classrooms full of students who cannot afford to get anything less than an A+++ if they hope to make it to (Ivy League) Med School. Further, due to the nature of medicine, these students also approach physics as something that’s meant to be memorized by rote. Note to premeds: every time you ask your TA what the relevant formula is so that you can memorize it, you kill a fraction of that poor grad student’s soul.

Not all premeds are like this. In fact, it may be true that most aren’t. But it sure needles the hell out of grad students when they have to teach those that are. It’s no surprise then, that there’s an uneasy tension between doctors and physicists.

So you’ll have to excuse me when I stuck out my tongue and blew a big raspberry to the medical community after I heard about the following paper:
A mathematical model for the determination of total area under glucose tolerance and other metabolic curves. M.M. Tai. Diabetes Care, Vol 17, Issue 2 152-154
http://fliptomato.wordpress.com/2007/03 ... citations/
OK, Courtier's Reply might not address a true fallacy, I'll leave others to pronounce on that. It sure as hell does nail the kind of BS response beloved of profound luminaries of the David Bentley Hart and Terry Eagleton ilk, which is where it is aimed. I don't think it was ever intended to be added to the list of standard fallacies. It's a niche fallacy, and a particular bug-bear of mine. There are some vapid pseudo-philosophical arguments so inane that it is trivial to spot the lack of any objective anchor. They tend to be composed of never-ending sentences with liberal sprinklings of 'contingent', 'prime mover' and 'first cause'. The lack of an argument is hidden under piles of drivel. Counter arguments are dismissed as ignorance of the full nuance conveyed by the philosophical jargon. New atheists are derided as having come by their atheism too easily, of not having undergone some agonised process of wrestling with the works of Aquinas. It's all a smokescreen to hide the lack of substance underpinned by a boneheaded certainty.Familiar, isn't it? I'm slightly obsessive compulsive, so I read that kind of stuff with clenched fists and grinding teeth.

Trophy
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20965

Post by Trophy »

Aneris wrote:I ended up on the weird side of YouTube. Anyway, who of you did this? Confess already!

[youtube]5PHENQiJFzI[/youtube]
What.
The.
Maybe Fuck?

ThreeFlangedJavis
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20966

Post by ThreeFlangedJavis »

d4m10n wrote:I'm not particularly keen on the concept of the “Courtier’s Reply” mostly because I've seen it misused so often to dismiss actual substantive criticisms of philosophy of religion as practised by various New Atheists. Come to think of it, I've only very rarely seen it used well, in a situation where the analogy really works.

Certain kinds of freethinkers don't look for counterarguments so much as labels to pin on opponents. Calling someone a "sexist" for arguing about the breadth of anti-harassment policies or calling someone a "courtier" for asking for more theologically nuanced arguments are both means of dismissing an interlocutor rather than engaging with their ideas.
All of the true fallacies are frequently mis-applied.

I've seen the Courtier's reply used frequently. These battles seem to go in cycles. Up to about 2 or 3 years ago there was a rash of accusations of unsophistication leveled at Gnus during games of whackamole where the definition of the 'prime mover' rejected was always a 'straw god'. There is always some other never-quite-specified killer argument that you are ignorant of. The dead body of Aquinas is repeatedly held up by a stick with a new hat and trousers on and shot down again. How many times do you have to shoot down an argument before dismissing it out of hand?

I'm not sure what you mean about the theologically nuanced arguments. Is that a criticism of theological philosophers or Gnus?

Aneris
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20967

Post by Aneris »

ThreeFlangedJavis wrote:
d4m10n wrote:I'm not particularly keen on the concept of the “Courtier’s Reply” mostly because I've seen it misused so often to dismiss actual substantive criticisms of philosophy of religion as practised by various New Atheists. Come to think of it, I've only very rarely seen it used well, in a situation where the analogy really works.

Certain kinds of freethinkers don't look for counterarguments so much as labels to pin on opponents. Calling someone a "sexist" for arguing about the breadth of anti-harassment policies or calling someone a "courtier" for asking for more theologically nuanced arguments are both means of dismissing an interlocutor rather than engaging with their ideas.
All of the true fallacies are frequently mis-applied.

I've seen the Courtier's reply used frequently. These battles seem to go in cycles. Up to about 2 or 3 years ago there was a rash of accusations of unsophistication leveled at Gnus during games of whackamole where the definition of the 'prime mover' rejected was always a 'straw god'. There is always some other never-quite-specified killer argument that you are ignorant of. The dead body of Aquinas is repeatedly held up by a stick with a new hat and trousers on and shot down again. How many times do you have to shoot down an argument before dismissing it out of hand?

I'm not sure what you mean about the theologically nuanced arguments. Is that a criticism of theological philosophers or Gnus?
The Courtier's Reply was a great one, indeed. It addresses the issue that a basic premise is wrong and that everything else built on top, as much sense it seems to make, is pointless when the fundamental assumptions are wrong. It is like arguing that Lord of the Rings was real, because the universe internally makes sense. The crucial element is that which established a fiction as congruent to observed reality.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20968

Post by welch »

Aneris wrote:l
PZ Myers wrote:You know what also annoys me about this? It’s explicitly counter to the goals of the wider atheist movement, in which we want people to step forward publicly and be the face of atheism. Look at that story about Gage Pulliam, for instance: he went public despite public opprobrium for atheists.

Jen puts her name and face up front for the cause. Regressive asshole atheists use that to harass her personally.

And conversely, this coward Justicar/Integralmath hides behind a pseudonym, bragging about how careful he is to keep his identity covered, while sniping at the atheists who have more guts than he does. You wanna know why he and other slymers are poison? Because they don’t stand up for any cause. They’re dead spots in the movement.
There are people, and women with their real names here...
Yeah, but they're gender traitors, so they're really just men.

ThreeFlangedJavis
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20969

Post by ThreeFlangedJavis »

Jack wrote:I do not know why PMZ and his commentators are so extremely offensive and divisive all the time. It indicates an intellectual weakness and inability to reason. It is probably why he has lost so many friends, as he himself claims. I would not personally like to be associated with someone like that.
PZ does it to puncture the air of reverence with which the religious establishment likes to cloak itself. He does it to encourage others to rebel against the hegemony of religious sentiment. I'm in agreement with the need to do that, but not with the particularly rude and aggressive manner in which he does it. You don't need to be nasty to be forthright. He attracts a commentariat who seem somewhat bitter about the religiosity of their societies, and he appears to be sympathetic to that. They get high on righteous indignation. It gives them a feeling of power that they feel they've been denied. From some of the comments, I get the sense that some of the women have had their self-esteem crushed IRL and are particularly sensitive to what they perceive as attempts to shut them up. They may be projecting their abusers onto the likes of us. Although I'm not entirely unsympathetic, I would have hoped that as supposed skeptics they would have been able to guard against falling into that trap.

John Greg
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20970

Post by John Greg »

Skep tickle, you sure have made a pal with that YeministyFemisity loon.

And bonus points for you being stupid because she didn't understand your reference to English having a mix of Greek and Latin roots. Maybe she doesn't even know that. Obsolete words, and all that, dontcha know.

/head spinning at the idiocy of it all

Tigzy
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20971

Post by Tigzy »

A really good, thought-provoking post from Ally here (I see some pitters have already contributed, so apologies if this is a re-post of the link: http://freethoughtblogs.com/hetpat/2013 ... /#comments

I like how he just seems...reasonable about it all: accepting the discrimination that women do face without going into extreme radfem BS, and likewise not letting himself get suckered in by the extreme MRA bollocks too. I'm definitely curious about his ideas regarding capitalism as being more responsible for both female and male disempowerment rather than 'the patriarchy' - I have a few speculations about that myself, albeit not greatly thought-out ones as of yet: hence, I really do look forward to reading more of his stuff.

Fuckin first for FTB, it has to be said.

Tigzy
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20972

Post by Tigzy »

Oops - should have removed the '#comments' bit from that link. Meant to link to the post, though the comments are good too. 'Pologies.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20973

Post by deLurch »

Skeeve wrote: Justicar's video:
Devil's Advocate:
I don't follow blag hag's online ramblings that much, but it appears that in January she made a post essentially giving up on hysteria politics and getting back down to business. http://freethoughtblogs.com/blaghag/201 ... -blogging/

While simply giving up on the subject isn't anywhere near as preferable to having sane reasoned discourse and debate on the matter at heart, if someone wants to simply walk away from this bullshit, shouldn't we just give it a rest as far as they are concerned? It is a path forward.

With that said, I have no reason to expect that Justicar was aware of Blag Hag's current stance on the issue.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20974

Post by Trophy »

Tigzy wrote:A really good, thought-provoking post from Ally here (I see some pitters have already contributed, so apologies if this is a re-post of the link: http://freethoughtblogs.com/hetpat/2013 ... /#comments

I like how he just seems...reasonable about it all: accepting the discrimination that women do face without going into extreme radfem BS, and likewise not letting himself get suckered in by the extreme MRA bollocks too. I'm definitely curious about his ideas regarding capitalism as being more responsible for both female and male disempowerment rather than 'the patriarchy' - I have a few speculations about that myself, albeit not greatly thought-out ones as of yet: hence, I really do look forward to reading more of his stuff.

Fuckin first for FTB, it has to be said.
It's not a bad article but somehow reading about these social justice issues reminds me of theology: nebulous and imprecise terminology with arguments that desparately need tags such as "[citation needed]" or "[says who?]", specially if you are used to rigorous statements used in science.

BarnOwl
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20975

Post by BarnOwl »

Ophelia is on quite the professional victim bender today.

Another fan of the Wooly-Thinkers Guide to Rhetoric here (been tempted to make bingo cards for various online forums):
Moral One-upmanship
If people disagree with you, accuse them of Eurocentrism or elitism or intolerance or narrowness or conventional thinking or scientism or homophobia.
Or misogyny. Or anti-social justicism.

ReneeHendricks
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20976

Post by ReneeHendricks »

welch wrote:
Aneris wrote:l
PZ Myers wrote:You know what also annoys me about this? It’s explicitly counter to the goals of the wider atheist movement, in which we want people to step forward publicly and be the face of atheism. Look at that story about Gage Pulliam, for instance: he went public despite public opprobrium for atheists.

Jen puts her name and face up front for the cause. Regressive asshole atheists use that to harass her personally.

And conversely, this coward Justicar/Integralmath hides behind a pseudonym, bragging about how careful he is to keep his identity covered, while sniping at the atheists who have more guts than he does. You wanna know why he and other slymers are poison? Because they don’t stand up for any cause. They’re dead spots in the movement.
There are people, and women with their real names here...
Yeah, but they're gender traitors, so they're really just men.
Shit! Don't tell my guy. All this time he thought he was bangin' a chick ;)

BarnOwl
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20977

Post by BarnOwl »

KiwiInOz wrote:
BarnOwl wrote:...

Remind me again how you're celebrating the 400 ppm carbon dioxide milestone? Uh-huh.
I've been meaning to address this since your first comment about it over the weekend.

I'm pissed off that we still don't have any effective feedback links between the various climate policies/agreements/commitments that Governments have "committed" to, and the economics and profit involved in digging up and flogging off coal. The elephant in the corner of the room has just let rip with an almighty fart and the solution is to buy an air freshener.
The dirty coal tide may be turning in Texas:

http://stateimpact.npr.org/texas/2013/0 ... -in-texas/

I think the reasons may be more economic than environmental, but yeah, better wind farms than coal-fired power plants. It's not as if people in this state are going to use less energy ...the energy has to come from somewhere, and AFAIC wind farms and solar arrays are the lesser of many possible evils.

sacha
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20978

Post by sacha »

Trophy wrote:BTW, I finally got to read the details of the kidnapping story and holyshit. Wow. The case is so fucked up, and the whole sitaution was so disgusting. It was totally a bad call to read it while having breakfast.

But then, I'll have to agree with Jen's (I think) tweet that right now focusing on the psychic part of the story is insensitive. There are so many other real things fucked in there (like police not following the lead by the neighbors, nobody prosecuting the FUCKING obvious domestic violence case, etc.) that focusing on the psychic aspect is really a bit dickish. Specially because the family didn't go to psychic immediately. They tried police, media, etc and once everything failed they went to the psychic show. The psychic did not cause much harm. She did not interfered with the case.
one of the girl's mother was so distraught after Sylvia Brown's claim that her daughter was dead, she died of heart failure. The girl will never get to see her mother again.

Did not cause much harm??!

Aneris
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20979

Post by Aneris »

Vargonian wrote:
Nerd of Redhead wrote:Gee, still following Slymepit script #7
I’ve only recently learned what the “Slymepit” is. Can you do me a personal favor and not act as though you’re on a witch hunt, accusing me of being some MRA or Slymepit member or whatever else the case may be? It’s important (as a critical thinker) not to draw conclusions beyond the evidence.
Vargonian wrote:
Chigau (違う) wrote:I rephrase, “Stop saying stupid stuff or go away.”
I would argue that it’s more “stupid” to merely write “go away” repeatedly without any substance. But then we’d have a difference of opinion, which of course shouldn’t be a problem. While it may annoy me personally, I would never wish for you to “go away” simply because I don’t agree with what you’re saying. So please, stay. Stay and speak your mind.
Usual treatment. Disagreement = Slymepitter. So, hi Vargonian. Make it short and easy for yourself. What they tell you is patently false. Feel free to check their claims.

And another Gem for Jan Steen:
Nerd of Redhead wrote:
There’s no reasoning with people who have already made up their mind, and willfully shut out other opinions.
That’s you. Show us EVIDENCE, not your OPINION. Your OPINION is *floosh* dismissed as unevidenced fuckwittery.
Cant. Stop. Laughing.

Aneris
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20980

Post by Aneris »

^ Taken from. IntegralMath/Justicar Thread
http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... net-offal/

Tigzy
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20981

Post by Tigzy »

@Trophy - well, discussing social justice issues is a lot like trying to nail smoke to the wall. By its very nature, it's a subject that requires a lot of nuanced thinking, IMO - it does sometimes seem that for every rule you think you've established, you'll eventually discover any number of exceptions to it. Which is why I find the kind of binary thinking the likes Peez brings to these issues to be so laughable. In FTB terms, Ally's post actually seems like a kind of milestone in this regard.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20982

Post by welch »

oh lord. "YOU LINKED TO AVfM, YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID".

THey didn't leave skepticism, they realized one day that skepticism hadn't just gone to the store for milk, it had actually left them, just like it said it was leaving them.

Tigzy
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20983

Post by Tigzy »

You know, if I had the skills for it, I'd like to replace all crash reports on my computer with this:
That’s you. Show us EVIDENCE, not your OPINION. Your OPINION is *floosh* dismissed as unevidenced fuckwittery.

katamari Damassi
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20984

Post by katamari Damassi »

Tigzy wrote:A really good, thought-provoking post from Ally here (I see some pitters have already contributed, so apologies if this is a re-post of the link: http://freethoughtblogs.com/hetpat/2013 ... /#comments

I like how he just seems...reasonable about it all: accepting the discrimination that women do face without going into extreme radfem BS, and likewise not letting himself get suckered in by the extreme MRA bollocks too. I'm definitely curious about his ideas regarding capitalism as being more responsible for both female and male disempowerment rather than 'the patriarchy' - I have a few speculations about that myself, albeit not greatly thought-out ones as of yet: hence, I really do look forward to reading more of his stuff.

Fuckin first for FTB, it has to be said.
I was guessing there would be a "What about the menz?" complaint within 10 comments and was pleasantly surprised to be wrong. On the other hand SallyStrange shows up with her bag of bullshit, which Ally wisely ignores.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20985

Post by welch »

katamari Damassi wrote:
Tigzy wrote:A really good, thought-provoking post from Ally here (I see some pitters have already contributed, so apologies if this is a re-post of the link: http://freethoughtblogs.com/hetpat/2013 ... /#comments

I like how he just seems...reasonable about it all: accepting the discrimination that women do face without going into extreme radfem BS, and likewise not letting himself get suckered in by the extreme MRA bollocks too. I'm definitely curious about his ideas regarding capitalism as being more responsible for both female and male disempowerment rather than 'the patriarchy' - I have a few speculations about that myself, albeit not greatly thought-out ones as of yet: hence, I really do look forward to reading more of his stuff.

Fuckin first for FTB, it has to be said.
I was guessing there would be a "What about the menz?" complaint within 10 comments and was pleasantly surprised to be wrong. On the other hand SallyStrange shows up with her bag of bullshit, which Ally wisely ignores.
Pretty much everyone did, except for one person who answered her in a sober fashion. So she's probably trying to figure out what's going on.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20986

Post by KiwiInOz »

katamari Damassi wrote:
Tigzy wrote:A really good, thought-provoking post from Ally here (I see some pitters have already contributed, so apologies if this is a re-post of the link: http://freethoughtblogs.com/hetpat/2013 ... /#comments

I like how he just seems...reasonable about it all: accepting the discrimination that women do face without going into extreme radfem BS, and likewise not letting himself get suckered in by the extreme MRA bollocks too. I'm definitely curious about his ideas regarding capitalism as being more responsible for both female and male disempowerment rather than 'the patriarchy' - I have a few speculations about that myself, albeit not greatly thought-out ones as of yet: hence, I really do look forward to reading more of his stuff.

Fuckin first for FTB, it has to be said.
I was guessing there would be a "What about the menz?" complaint within 10 comments and was pleasantly surprised to be wrong. On the other hand SallyStrange shows up with her bag of bullshit, which Ally wisely ignores.
She's a bitter and twisted puppy, that one.

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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20987

Post by JackSkeptic »

katamari Damassi wrote:
Tigzy wrote:A really good, thought-provoking post from Ally here (I see some pitters have already contributed, so apologies if this is a re-post of the link: http://freethoughtblogs.com/hetpat/2013 ... /#comments

I like how he just seems...reasonable about it all: accepting the discrimination that women do face without going into extreme radfem BS, and likewise not letting himself get suckered in by the extreme MRA bollocks too. I'm definitely curious about his ideas regarding capitalism as being more responsible for both female and male disempowerment rather than 'the patriarchy' - I have a few speculations about that myself, albeit not greatly thought-out ones as of yet: hence, I really do look forward to reading more of his stuff.

Fuckin first for FTB, it has to be said.
I was guessing there would be a "What about the menz?" complaint within 10 comments and was pleasantly surprised to be wrong. On the other hand SallyStrange shows up with her bag of bullshit, which Ally wisely ignores.
Well Ally does not seem to be the sort of person who is easily bullied and is capable of open discussion and nuance. He will be fine as the more extreme commentators will stay away from him eventually as they did at Nugent's. He also has some smart people commenting on his previous blog and I am sure they will not be happy with the usual histrionics indicative of vacuous blogs such as Pharyngula.

BarnOwl
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20988

Post by BarnOwl »

Meanwhile, over at Skepchick, the Justicar-harasses-Jen dishonesty continues, and:
Ophelia Benson / May 13, 2013, 1:33 pm Log in to Reply
Hah! I love that last line.
And yes: afuckingmen. No I don’t want to have a “dialogue” with people who call me a fucking cunt. Dang I’ve had to repeat that a lot over the past few months. There were a couple of guys who had a bright idea of trying to be Peacemakers or some such thing. There was Lee Moore. And then there was Michael Nugent…I told him two or three times that no I don’t want to have a “dialogue” with people who call me a fucking cunt, but I might as well have told my coffee cup that.
Shorter Ophelia: But I will take an expenses-paid trip to Dublin, thank you very much.

Slipping up with the occasional utterance of a gendered slur or an ableist term or any other bad werdz is easy to do, no big deal. It's the blatant hypocrisy of their actions, time and time again, that's the real turn-off. They can't even be consistent about throwing the toys out of the pram.

JackSkeptic
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20989

Post by JackSkeptic »

OK I'm going to make a prediction:

1. Ally will attract a lot of followers and readers from the more extreme feminist parts of FtB who at last get to say what they think rather than have to stick to the party line. Some probably crave that but for emotional reasons can not or do not.

2. He will get more followers than PMZ et al. from the above and others attracted to the larger network he is now on.

3. He and the other reasonable bloggers will set up their own blogging network so they can expand without worrying about being judged by being associated with dogmatists.


If I'm wrong send your complaint letters c/o Sylvia Brown. If I'm right I'll donate the Randi million to my bank account.

TheMudbrooker
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Re: Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

#20990

Post by TheMudbrooker »

Aneris wrote:
PZ Myers wrote:You know what also annoys me about this? It’s explicitly counter to the goals of the wider atheist movement, in which we want people to step forward publicly and be the face of atheism. Look at that story about Gage Pulliam, for instance: he went public despite public opprobrium for atheists.

Jen puts her name and face up front for the cause. Regressive asshole atheists use that to harass her personally.

And conversely, this coward Justicar/Integralmath hides behind a pseudonym, bragging about how careful he is to keep his identity covered, while sniping at the atheists who have more guts than he does. You wanna know why he and other slymers are poison? Because they don’t stand up for any cause. They’re dead spots in the movement.
There are people, and women with their real names here...
You know, Professor Myers is right. It is nothing but cowardice for an atheist to use anything but their real name and face online. After all, most jobs here in the U.S. are tenured positions and those few workers who aren't tenured are protected by powerful unions. Furthermore, should an employer ever try to fire an atheist for some trumped-up excuse the U.S. Department of Labor would instantly decend upon the wrongdoer, get to the truth of the matter and make an example of that employer by severely punishing them. The very idea that an atheist wouldn't be treated fairly in a custody dispute can also be dismissed as pure, wild fantasy. If you will excuse me Professor Myers, I must go now and tear my beard, beat my breast, rend my garment and make manifest my shame for the cowardly act of using the name "TheMudbrooker" instead of the one on my birth certificate.

Locked