Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

[bovarchist]

Maybe Justin could get Surly Amy to make a ceramic albatross engraved with that quote to hang around his neck when he goes to WiS2.

The Rime of the Youthful Mansplainer

It is a youthful Mansplainer
And he harasseth one of three.
'By thy porn 'stache and misogynist hat,
Now wherefore harassest thou me?'

He holds her with his twittering tweet -
The Feminist reads all,
With any mention of her name
The Mansplainer will enthrall.

The Feminist glares at her screen:
She cannot choose but fear;
And thus tweet'd on that youthful man,
The porn-'stached Mansplainer.

'I fear thee, youthful Mansplainer!
I fear thy stochastic threat!
And thou art cruel, and loud, and foul,
And sure to rape me yet.

The many men, so threatening!
They all will call me names:
And a thousand slimy Slymepitters
Are sure to do the same.


To be continued ... (unfortunately)

Much more plausible than getting hit by an asteroid.

[Percentage]

Ugh. Things have come up and it's looking like I won't be able to make it to WiS.

God, though, I want to go so badly. JV, can you wear one of those hard hats with a camera built in?

[Skep tickle]

Re the Houston Chronicle article http://blog.chron.com/sacredduty/2013/0 ... -movement/

[rant on]

Who did he interview, where did he get his info? So much of it seems so simplistic (yeah, I know, what a shock, hard to find much other than that in journalism).

I'll ignore the title; the author might not have written it.

1) Caption to photo at top of Surlyramics table says "Women peruse...female freethought jewelry..." - Wait, are Surlyramics female? The Surlyramics website, and etsy, call them "unique, handmade ceramic jewelry for men and women." (Heh, notice men are mentioned first.) There are at least some men who wear, or have worn, Surlyramics, including Justin V in that photo w/ PZ, and uh I think maybe JT? They're ceramic pendants, not delicate jewelry.

2) First paragraph: Women are in a "conundrum" and "crisis" when it comes to religion because of lack of "vertical movement" "as pockets of religious conservatism tighten control"...Hunh? Did he just flat out make that up as a lead-in? Number of women pastors doubles in 10 years and Female pastors on rise in progressive Baptist bodies

3) And, first paragraph & end of 2nd paragraph, that's true for women without religion too and that's a "seemingly contradictory predicament"? Well even if he HAD supported his claim in the first paragraph, certainly a change in a society could explain a change in 2 subgroups within that society, sorry but duh. :roll:

4) Second paragraph: "Over 300 women will be convening in Washington D.C. for the Women in Secularism 2 conference" - well that might be the case but that implies all of the attendees are women, which is not true (until, perhaps, they bar Justin V).

5) Third & fourth paragraphs: This year's WiS "will combat those in the secular movement who have shown hostility towards emerging feminine secular champions" (check the program, I'm not seeing that, but maybe it'll be during breaks and social times) - AND immediately following that line, Melody Hensley is quoted as claiming that she & others - the WiS organizers, or organizers and attendees, "want to start a dialogue to resolve these issues".

Oooh, a dialogue! Hear that, Skepchick and Ophie and PZ? Better dogpile on Melody for committing the error of wanting to start a dialog (though really Melody's claim is a laugh, can you picture her starting a dialog with anyone who disagrees with her? Pshaw.

6) 6th paragraph: "With increased numbers has come a call for proliferated representation in the movement and a strong nod towards women’s issues in secular dialogue. So far, both causes have stymied." This paragraph is like nails on a chalkboard for me:
- "Proliferated representation" WTF, argh, representation doesn't grow rapidly in numbers, it's a proportional thing.
- Stymie is a transitive verb. Transitive, you hear? It needs an object! Argh again!

7) 7th paragraph: "Not only do women face backlash from religious groups opposed to their atheism and feminism..." Gimme a break, not only do ATHEISTS face backlash from religious groups, and not only do PEOPLE opposed to religion-based discrimination fight against, well, religion-based discrimination. The sentence continues, "...but there are sources of adversity within the secular community as well. Places such as forums at Slymepit.com and the site A Voice for Men are countering Women in Secularism’s claim that atheism and feminism fit together hand-in-glove." Well, yes, but that doesn't mean "women face backlash..." in the secular community because of their feminism, it's that PEOPLE who

8) I'll skip over the whole Justin V quote, Paul Elam quote, etc etc and move down near the end of the piece. Cuing up to quote Hensley, the author writes "Noting that secular women do not get as many opportunities as men to speak at secular events..." - Oh, grr, he's supposed to be a journalist...did he look into whether or not this is true across the board? That women active in secular groups get fewer opportunities to speak at secular events than men, relative to the proportion of women active in secular groups compared with men? I'm sure one can find examples, particularly at the higher "echelons" (US Government, if one can call that a "secular group", which unfortunately is not as much of a joke-comment as it should be) but I am not convinced that across the board it pans out.

[/rant]

I've enjoyed reading the comments after the article, though. :D

[Skep tickle]

Posted without finishing the last line in (7): "it's that PEOPLE who"...

Fill in whatever you want, something like "it's that PEOPLE who are dogmatic and endorse gender-based discrimination under the guise of feminism face a backlash".

[sacha]

I hate ties. It's like wearing a coloured noose. if one must wear a suit, no tie, collar open with jacket:

http://theenlightenedminds.files.wordpr ... .jpg?w=640

Uh, oh! Sacha's getting a wide-on again...

is that what Hitch is measuring with his arms there?

Just opening the curtains?

at least he looks pleased

Bill The Cat: The ravens at the beach here are as big as a full-grown cat, and are not frightened of giant dogs running towards them, in fact they tease the dogs for fun. The crows are smaller, but tough as well. The intelligence of the corvids is unbelievable. They thrive everywhere in the world excluding the polar ice caps. Their cognitive abilities are known to be on par with the Great Apes, and are thought to be the most intelligent animal other than humans. They also remember faces for years, and pass that information down to their offspring. Refer to them as "wimps" at your own risk.

[ReneeHendricks]

The curious thing is also: now that they presumably introduced social issues, what are they doing about it? Did they discuss it anywhere? Did they actually made a difference? Did they make any efforts of bringing it all together coherently, now that they decided to combine critical thinking, atheism, secularism etc. with feminism? I made the attempt months ago and was called out as misogynist, as I was critical of (certain types of) feminist theory. I don't know. They are still stuck where they where months ago, while they pretend to have solved the issues already. The common baboon is certainly a fake.

If you're talking about A+, I'm going with "they've done shit-all". All I've ever seen on that forum site is a whole lotta "this and that you can say but this and that you cannot". If that's what social justice is about, count me out (we're rather rational here so we know differently).

A few of the A+ers knit or sew things for charity - worthwhile charities, not gifts for celebrity atheists or puling FtB narcissists. More than one can say for their fearless leaders, of course, who are far too busy flying around to conferences and sitting on their arses drinking beer at hotel bars or poolsides.

If there are a few doing something actually worthwhile, that's great. However, that pretty much says the other 90% or so are just wasting time bitching and "holier-than-thou-ing". Wasn't that group supposed to *do* things rather than sit around typing about it?

[Skep tickle]

The curious thing is also: now that they presumably introduced social issues, what are they doing about it? Did they discuss it anywhere? Did they actually made a difference? Did they make any efforts of bringing it all together coherently, now that they decided to combine critical thinking, atheism, secularism etc. with feminism? I made the attempt months ago and was called out as misogynist, as I was critical of (certain types of) feminist theory. I don't know. They are still stuck where they where months ago, while they pretend to have solved the issues already. The common baboon is certainly a fake.

If you're talking about A+, I'm going with "they've done shit-all". All I've ever seen on that forum site is a whole lotta "this and that you can say but this and that you cannot". If that's what social justice is about, count me out (we're rather rational here so we know differently).

A few of the A+ers knit or sew things for charity - worthwhile charities, not gifts for celebrity atheists or puling FtB narcissists. More than one can say for their fearless leaders, of course, who are far too busy flying around to conferences and sitting on their arses drinking beer at hotel bars or poolsides.

No, no, you're just not seeing what you're supposed to see - their leaders are spreading the Good News, making converts to the cause through their evangelism (like Carrier's AACON talk, currently 742 upvotes, 5835 downvotes on youtube). And the reaction they get just makes them dig their heels in all the harder; after all, all who desire to live a socially just life in A+ will be persecuted (after 2 Timothy 3:12).

[ReneeHendricks]

Hey, for those interested, my guy finished up his radiation a little over a week ago. In total, he lost over 50 pounds. He didn't start feeling like shit until after the therapy completed. He's battling major exhaustion and depression at this point.

But! The hardest part is done. Nothin' but recovery time now. Oh, and that man is still working. Apparently 99% of their patients stop working for at least a month (according to his doctor and all the nurses and nutritionists at the cancer clinic). He has said he's ready to punch people in the face if he hears how brave he is one more time. That's a good indication to me that he's starting to get back to his oil' self :)

[ReneeHendricks]

ER his ol' self. Stupid auto-correct.

[Lsuoma]

The intelligence of the corvids is unbelievable. They thrive everywhere in the world excluding the polar ice caps. Their cognitive abilities are known to be on par with the Great Apes, and are thought to be the most intelligent animal other than humans. They also remember faces for years, and pass that information down to their offspring. Refer to them as "wimps" at your own risk.

Indeed.

Mrs Lsuoma and I were taking a break on the Pacific Coast at Kalaloch last year. There was a seal carcass washed up on the beach, and a Bald Eagle was eating. Over a period of about 15-20 minutes we watched four crows gather and start tormenting the eagle. One or two would face it, while a third would fly low over its head. the fourth stood behind the eagle and pulled at its tail feathers. After about 20 minutes the eagle, who had displayed relative equanimity, got pissed off, jumped on top of the ex-seal, and tried to fly off with it - no chance! A few minutes later it appeared to decide "WTF" and flew off, leaving the seal carcass to the crows.

Interesting to watch, and very educational...

[Skep tickle]

Hey, for those interested, my guy finished up his radiation a little over a week ago. In total, he lost over 50 pounds. He didn't start feeling like shit until after the therapy completed. He's battling major exhaustion and depression at this point.

But! The hardest part is done. Nothin' but recovery time now. Oh, and that man is still working. Apparently 99% of their patients stop working for at least a month (according to his doctor and all the nurses and nutritionists at the cancer clinic). He has said he's ready to punch people in the face if he hears how brave he is one more time. That's a good indication to me that he's starting to get back to his oil' self :)

Glad to hear the hard part's over and you're seeing the ol' him come back.

50 lbs, man, that was fast. Mostly because he couldn't eat? Is his throat feeling okay now?

[ReneeHendricks]

Hey, for those interested, my guy finished up his radiation a little over a week ago. In total, he lost over 50 pounds. He didn't start feeling like shit until after the therapy completed. He's battling major exhaustion and depression at this point.

But! The hardest part is done. Nothin' but recovery time now. Oh, and that man is still working. Apparently 99% of their patients stop working for at least a month (according to his doctor and all the nurses and nutritionists at the cancer clinic). He has said he's ready to punch people in the face if he hears how brave he is one more time. That's a good indication to me that he's starting to get back to his oil' self :)

Glad to hear the hard part's over and you're seeing the ol' him come back.

50 lbs, man, that was fast. Mostly because he couldn't eat? Is his throat feeling okay now?

Yeah. He was taking in liquid nutrition (still is, mostly) through his stomach peg and he couldn't get in the amount of calories needed to keep his weight. The good part is that he was about 40 pounds over what he should weigh so he's not skin and bones. The past day or two, he's managed to actually drink some broth. His taste buds are all screwed up so it seems like drinking warm water.

[Skep tickle]

Hey, for those interested, my guy finished up his radiation a little over a week ago. In total, he lost over 50 pounds. He didn't start feeling like shit until after the therapy completed. He's battling major exhaustion and depression at this point.

But! The hardest part is done. Nothin' but recovery time now. Oh, and that man is still working. Apparently 99% of their patients stop working for at least a month (according to his doctor and all the nurses and nutritionists at the cancer clinic). He has said he's ready to punch people in the face if he hears how brave he is one more time. That's a good indication to me that he's starting to get back to his oil' self :)

Glad to hear the hard part's over and you're seeing the ol' him come back.

50 lbs, man, that was fast. Mostly because he couldn't eat? Is his throat feeling okay now?

Yeah. He was taking in liquid nutrition (still is, mostly) through his stomach peg and he couldn't get in the amount of calories needed to keep his weight. The good part is that he was about 40 pounds over what he should weigh so he's not skin and bones. The past day or two, he's managed to actually drink some broth. His taste buds are all screwed up so it seems like drinking warm water.

I forgot about the PEG - is there a plan to take that out or is it just 'wait and see' right now? And have they said anything about whether his taste buds will recover, & when?

It sounds like at least the pain and the sense of difficulty breathing are better, I hope (latter might have only been w/ that stent & positioning during XRT treatments).

[KiwiInOz]

The intelligence of the corvids is unbelievable. They thrive everywhere in the world excluding the polar ice caps. Their cognitive abilities are known to be on par with the Great Apes, and are thought to be the most intelligent animal other than humans. They also remember faces for years, and pass that information down to their offspring. Refer to them as "wimps" at your own risk.

Indeed.

Mrs Lsuoma and I were taking a break on the Pacific Coast at Kalaloch last year. There was a seal carcass washed up on the beach, and a Bald Eagle was eating. Over a period of about 15-20 minutes we watched four crows gather and start tormenting the eagle. One or two would face it, while a third would fly low over its head. the fourth stood behind the eagle and pulled at its tail feathers. After about 20 minutes the eagle, who had displayed relative equanimity, got pissed off, jumped on top of the ex-seal, and tried to fly off with it - no chance! A few minutes later it appeared to decide "WTF" and flew off, leaving the seal carcass to the crows.

Interesting to watch, and very educational...

Kea are incredibly intelligent and bloody cheeky.

[youtube]5l0DNaVQ-P4[/youtube]

[youtube]OMLpPoOeays[/youtube]

[KiwiInOz]

Hey, for those interested, my guy finished up his radiation a little over a week ago. In total, he lost over 50 pounds. He didn't start feeling like shit until after the therapy completed. He's battling major exhaustion and depression at this point.

But! The hardest part is done. Nothin' but recovery time now. Oh, and that man is still working. Apparently 99% of their patients stop working for at least a month (according to his doctor and all the nurses and nutritionists at the cancer clinic). He has said he's ready to punch people in the face if he hears how brave he is one more time. That's a good indication to me that he's starting to get back to his oil' self :)

Awesomely excellent.

Obviously the Pit's advice has worked.

Blowjobs on the house.

[Aneris]

The intelligence of the corvids is unbelievable. They thrive everywhere in the world excluding the polar ice caps. Their cognitive abilities are known to be on par with the Great Apes, and are thought to be the most intelligent animal other than humans. They also remember faces for years, and pass that information down to their offspring. Refer to them as "wimps" at your own risk.

Indeed.

Mrs Lsuoma and I were taking a break on the Pacific Coast at Kalaloch last year. There was a seal carcass washed up on the beach, and a Bald Eagle was eating. Over a period of about 15-20 minutes we watched four crows gather and start tormenting the eagle. One or two would face it, while a third would fly low over its head. the fourth stood behind the eagle and pulled at its tail feathers. After about 20 minutes the eagle, who had displayed relative equanimity, got pissed off, jumped on top of the ex-seal, and tried to fly off with it - no chance! A few minutes later it appeared to decide "WTF" and flew off, leaving the seal carcass to the crows.

Interesting to watch, and very educational...

Kea are incredibly intelligent and bloody cheeky.

[youtube]5l0DNaVQ-P4[/youtube]

[youtube]OMLpPoOeays[/youtube]

I remember a documentary on Keas that was hilarious. The camera team wanted to film them and came with a camper van. Once they set everything up, the Keas where all over the place and started to pick their equipment apart in the usual playful and curious manner. Eventually, the team gave up and the resulting documentary became a hilarious story about how the Kea thwarted the attempt of filming them in their natural environment. They documented them, after all, but different than they thought.

[Guest]

So it took Bertrand Russell a good ~750 pages to derive 1+1=2 from pure logic, but Amanda Marcotte derived feminism in a single blog post / article? Colour me impressed!

[TedDahlberg]

it would not be entirely inaccurate to describe me as Amazonish.

Covered in vegetation and home to countless species unknown to science?

[Eskarina]

I remember a documentary on Keas that was hilarious. The camera team wanted to film them and came with a camper van. Once they set everything up, the Keas where all over the place and started to pick their equipment apart in the usual playful and curious manner. Eventually, the team gave up and the resulting documentary became a hilarious story about how the Kea thwarted the attempt of filming them in their natural environment. They documented them, after all, but different than they thought.

This might be the one you mean:

[youtube]e755ETUaD6Y[/youtube]


[youtube]v38PHtG9D7E[/youtube]


[youtube]VGyJiRoFoZE[/youtube]

[TedDahlberg]

Ugh, I have a friend who seems to be heading down the feminism rabbit hole. A while back she made some comment about how I couldn't understand what life was like for women because I had a penis¹. She seemed taken aback that that comment would upset me, I'm not sure she understood why but at least she didn't pursue that line further. There ahve been other weird comments since. Now she's posted some link on Facebook to one of those "why I need feminism things," full of dubious claims. I won't touch any of it with a ten-foot-pole unless I have to, but I'd hate to lose a good friend over something as stupid as this. Because she's not unreasonable, but I can tell from the things she says sometimes that she's buying a rhetoric eerily similar to the FtB style feminism. I just hope it doesn't go that far. Feminism in moderation I can live with, and it might even be a good thing. Right, unsolicited venting over.

¹The reason that this argument tends to actually make me angry is that, in essence, it says "you're a sociopath". Can I know what it's like to be a woman? No, but socially awkward as I am I still have enough empathy to be able to imagine. I put it on almost the exact same level as not being able to know what it's like to be the man in the office next to mine. I have to exercise my imagination just as much to put myself in his place. Sure, we both have a cock, but unless we're talking about the mechanics and sensation of sex, how does that translate into an inability to imagine a different social situation than my own? All saying "you can't understand" does is annoy me and make me go "fine, I won't try then". It's counter-productive and stupid.

[rayshul]

300 women and JV. Just 300 going to WiS, though? That seems silly-small. The impact of this whole shebang on the wider Atheist/skeptic community seems to get smaller every time I hear Actual Numbers.

Yay for the hubby, Renee :) Hopefully he is looking forward to eating more interesting food later on...

[Pitchguest]

I've dug myself down at Ally Fogg's blog and I'm not budging:

http://freethoughtblogs.com/hetpat/2013 ... omment-822

I actually feel more comfortable there and it feels like you can actually have a conversation without getting dogpiled. And if you do get dogpiled, you can just easily get back up without fear of repraisal or banning (so far), which is refreshing to say the least. The only other place on FtB that this happened was on Edwin Kagin's blog, but that one is pining for the fjords.

On Yemmy's blog, though, I'm just about done. I just needed to provide one last attempt to dissaude this "misogyny" claim, even though I'm sure it will be for naught.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/yemmynistin ... omment-563

[rayshul]

Ugh, I have a friend who seems to be heading down the feminism rabbit hole. A while back she made some comment about how I couldn't understand what life was like for women because I had a penis¹.

I unfortunately seem to have befriended mainly saddo left wing women, and I am seeing their FEMINIZM now on Facebook in hilarious quantities. Funny thing is that all of them have shit lives and seem perpetually miserable about everything except their favourite TV shows and spin-off fiction about their favourite TV shows.

I originally chose not to engage but now I am and I'm loving it. THEY DON'T KNOW HOW TO DEAL WITH CRITICISM it's so fucking lulz.

Lsuoma are we going to get 'pit blogs? :D I am totally up for that shit.

[Phil_Giordana_FCD]

it would not be entirely inaccurate to describe me as Amazonish.

Covered in vegetation and home to countless species unknown to science?

Ok, I loled hard. GG, Ted!

[DownThunder]

Ugh, I have a friend who seems to be heading down the feminism rabbit hole. A while back she made some comment about how I couldn't understand what life was like for women because I had a penis¹. She seemed taken aback that that comment would upset me, I'm not sure she understood why but at least she didn't pursue that line further. There ahve been other weird comments since. Now she's posted some link on Facebook to one of those "why I need feminism things," full of dubious claims. I won't touch any of it with a ten-foot-pole unless I have to, but I'd hate to lose a good friend over something as stupid as this. Because she's not unreasonable, but I can tell from the things she says sometimes that she's buying a rhetoric eerily similar to the FtB style feminism. I just hope it doesn't go that far. Feminism in moderation I can live with, and it might even be a good thing. Right, unsolicited venting over.

¹The reason that this argument tends to actually make me angry is that, in essence, it says "you're a sociopath". Can I know what it's like to be a woman? No, but socially awkward as I am I still have enough empathy to be able to imagine. I put it on almost the exact same level as not being able to know what it's like to be the man in the office next to mine. I have to exercise my imagination just as much to put myself in his place. Sure, we both have a cock, but unless we're talking about the mechanics and sensation of sex, how does that translate into an inability to imagine a different social situation than my own? All saying "you can't understand" does is annoy me and make me go "fine, I won't try then". It's counter-productive and stupid.

Ive had similar experiences, both christian friends and a few buying the church style anti-porn/prostitution feminism. Im not sure how old you are or whether I am just jaded before my time, but don't be afraid to lose friends. IME spending time around people who you are constantly afraid to offend, while they are quite happy to scold you, are unhealthy friendships.

To be honest most feminist rhetoric in nice or less nice ways states that most men are sociopathic, while at the same time being highly lacking in empathy. The "cant understand being a woman" line is purely to cut off any claim you have for empathy. Yes, you cannot understand everything about being a woman, but to imply that there are not common elements in gender identities is obviously narrow minded and short sighted. From experience they are denying that you can feel and be subjected to irrational discrimination, harm and violation because you lack the status of being a woman.

Any "friend" showing that behaviour needs to be booted to the curb. I think you're being manipulated.

[Phil_Giordana_FCD]

I will give an enthusiastic clap to Karmakin's comment @ Ally Fogg's place. Nothing to disagree with.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/hetpat/2013 ... omment-776

(It is a rare thing that I link to FTB, but Ally's blog is kind of cool).

PitchGuest: thanks for the efforts at Yemisi's. I think I will opt out as well, it's becoming pointless. But as with Michael Nugent's efforts, I find it nice sometimes to have a civil discussion with the "other side" without the fear of the banhammer/edit/moderation. It almost feels like the Pit at times :D

Renée: that's very good news! About the taste buds, I hope it will be fixed soon. Stopping smoking has made me realize how good things taste. And also that the bathroom sink stinked something aweful. It's okay, we bought industrial-strenght cleaners.

[Aneris]

Lsuoma are we going to get 'pit blogs? :D I am totally up for that shit.

Yeah, bring it on. One must acknowledge, for a mere forum that basically has only one thread, we're holding up quite well in terms of internet fame (or notoriety).

[TedDahlberg]

it would not be entirely inaccurate to describe me as Amazonish.

Covered in vegetation and home to countless species unknown to science?

Ok, I loled hard. GG, Ted!

My work here is done.

[Apples]

We're a hate site now?

It's the PZ definition... a "hate site" is a site he hates.

Nailed it.

[Apples]

Maybe Justin could get Surly Amy to make a ceramic albatross engraved with that quote to hang around his neck when he goes to WiS2.

The Rime of the Youthful Mansplainer

It is a youthful Mansplainer
And he harasseth one of three.
'By thy porn 'stache and misogynist hat,
Now wherefore harassest thou me?'

He holds her with his twittering tweet -
The Feminist reads all,
With any mention of her name
The Mansplainer will enthrall.

The Feminist glares at her screen:
She cannot choose but fear;
And thus tweet'd on that youthful man,
The porn-'stached Mansplainer.

'I fear thee, youthful Mansplainer!
I fear thy stochastic threat!
And thou art cruel, and loud, and foul,
And sure to rape me yet.

The many men, so threatening!
They all will call me names:
And a thousand slimy Slymepitters
Are sure to do the same.


To be continued ... (unfortunately)

Brilliant!

[TedDahlberg]

Ugh, I have a friend who seems to be heading down the feminism rabbit hole. A while back she made some comment about how I couldn't understand what life was like for women because I had a penis¹. She seemed taken aback that that comment would upset me, I'm not sure she understood why but at least she didn't pursue that line further. There ahve been other weird comments since. Now she's posted some link on Facebook to one of those "why I need feminism things," full of dubious claims. I won't touch any of it with a ten-foot-pole unless I have to, but I'd hate to lose a good friend over something as stupid as this. Because she's not unreasonable, but I can tell from the things she says sometimes that she's buying a rhetoric eerily similar to the FtB style feminism. I just hope it doesn't go that far. Feminism in moderation I can live with, and it might even be a good thing. Right, unsolicited venting over.

¹The reason that this argument tends to actually make me angry is that, in essence, it says "you're a sociopath". Can I know what it's like to be a woman? No, but socially awkward as I am I still have enough empathy to be able to imagine. I put it on almost the exact same level as not being able to know what it's like to be the man in the office next to mine. I have to exercise my imagination just as much to put myself in his place. Sure, we both have a cock, but unless we're talking about the mechanics and sensation of sex, how does that translate into an inability to imagine a different social situation than my own? All saying "you can't understand" does is annoy me and make me go "fine, I won't try then". It's counter-productive and stupid.

Ive had similar experiences, both christian friends and a few buying the church style anti-porn/prostitution feminism. Im not sure how old you are or whether I am just jaded before my time, but don't be afraid to lose friends. IME spending time around people who you are constantly afraid to offend, while they are quite happy to scold you, are unhealthy friendships.

To be honest most feminist rhetoric in nice or less nice ways states that most men are sociopathic, while at the same time being highly lacking in empathy. The "cant understand being a woman" line is purely to cut off any claim you have for empathy. Yes, you cannot understand everything about being a woman, but to imply that there are not common elements in gender identities is obviously narrow minded and short sighted. From experience they are denying that you can feel and be subjected to irrational discrimination, harm and violation because you lack the status of being a woman.

Any "friend" showing that behaviour needs to be booted to the curb. I think you're being manipulated.

Oh, certainly old enough to know when to walk away, I have before. I wouldn't really say this is a case of manipulation. I am quite convinced that my friend simply hasn't thought through the consequences of what she's saying. It has the ring of repeating things that sounded good when you heard them, but which you haven't understood completely.

I agree completely when you say "IME spending time around people who you are constantly afraid to offend, while they are quite happy to scold you, are unhealthy friendships," and frankly that's advice everyone should hear. I experienced a textbook example with another person who I'd known for years. They were vegetarian when I met them, and slowly became more and more vegan over the years, to the point that there wasn't a single piece of food in my house good enough for them, and they'd make sure to let me know that they were indeed a little better than me because I ate meat. Then the social justice started creeping in as well, and the final straw was when I was showing them and their boyfriend (nice guy) the first episode of Game of Thrones and they got up without a word and walked out at the Daenerys sex scene. The boyfriend stayed a few more minutes, more and more embarrassed, then left too. Haven't talked to them in person since, and while that's sad, as you say at some point it isn't worth it.

[Nim_Chimpsky]

So it took Bertrand Russell a good ~750 pages to derive 1+1=2 from pure logic, but Amanda Marcotte derived feminism in a single blog post / article? Colour me impressed!

Bertrand Russell and Amanda Marcotte are names that shouldn't be used in the same sentence together. Bertrand Russell is a prime example of rigorous intellectual who frequently changed certain philosophical positions (politically he was much more inflexible) when he saw them to no longer be tenable. Amanda Marcotte has gained notoriety by being loud and outspoken. She has also been accused of appropriating other peoples ideas into her work without citing them.

[TedDahlberg]

Ugh, I have a friend who seems to be heading down the feminism rabbit hole. A while back she made some comment about how I couldn't understand what life was like for women because I had a penis¹.

I unfortunately seem to have befriended mainly saddo left wing women, and I am seeing their FEMINIZM now on Facebook in hilarious quantities. Funny thing is that all of them have shit lives and seem perpetually miserable about everything except their favourite TV shows and spin-off fiction about their favourite TV shows.

I originally chose not to engage but now I am and I'm loving it. THEY DON'T KNOW HOW TO DEAL WITH CRITICISM it's so fucking lulz.

Lsuoma are we going to get 'pit blogs? :D I am totally up for that shit.

It's the vapidity of it all that's most exasperating! OK, you're posting links to Youtube videos on feminism and lists of "feminist facts," complain about too much sex in the media, and will shout at anyone using a word you don't like. Meanwhile you're watching TV shows with more sex than story, couldn't explain why a certain statistic is or isn't correct if your life depended on it, and generally live a life completely unaffected by any of the problems you go on and on about but don't try to solve.

I think that might be one of the key differences between people in all this. On the one hand you have the "OH my fucking GODS the sky is falling!" people, and on the other you have the "OK, what seems to be the problem and how can we fix it" people. Maybe I'm being uncharitable.

[Dick Strawkins]

More from the neverending page of whining.

http://i.imgur.com/5HjZbuL.jpg

I think Vacula is on to something here.
It is a symbiotic relationship. 90% of comments on B and W come from drama posts rather than anything to do with religion and, as Justin suggests, Ophelia never shuts up about him. She's like a free PR firm.

[jjbinx007]

More from the neverending page of whining.

http://i.imgur.com/5HjZbuL.jpg

I think Vacula is on to something here.
It is a symbiotic relationship. 90% of comments on B and W come from drama posts rather than anything to do with religion and, as Justin suggests, Ophelia never shuts up about him. She's like a free PR firm.

She's constantly monitoring what he says, yet she writes posts saying he's monitoring her?

And, and will someone please explain this like I'm 8, but how in the holy fuck is someone saying "I am now mentioned in a total of 32 posts on Ophelia Benson's blog" evidence that HE is harassing HER?!

That's not harassment. Christ on a fucking bike.

[Phil_Giordana_FCD]

As the great philosopher Lennon said: All you need is love. He was shot dead not long afterwards.

Anyway, Justin, go for it! (the love, not the shooting).

[Phil_Giordana_FCD]

"All you need is love and a bulletproof vest".

[jjbinx007]

"All you need is love and a bulletproof vest".

....and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.

[Jonathan]

Ophelia, since I know you or your lackeys are reading: regarding your "harassment":

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/ ... 463206.jpg

[Dick Strawkins]

More from the neverending page of whining.

http://i.imgur.com/5HjZbuL.jpg

I think Vacula is on to something here.
It is a symbiotic relationship. 90% of comments on B and W come from drama posts rather than anything to do with religion and, as Justin suggests, Ophelia never shuts up about him. She's like a free PR firm.

She's constantly monitoring what he says, yet she writes posts saying he's monitoring her?

And, and will someone please explain this like I'm 8, but how in the holy fuck is someone saying "I am now mentioned in a total of 32 posts on Ophelia Benson's blog" evidence that HE is harassing HER?!

That's not harassment. Christ on a fucking bike.

It is, if you use a certain definition for the word "harass"

http://i.imgur.com/bcAdMXz.jpg

If "harass" can be viewed as an action that is equivalent to "irritate", "annoy", or "provoke", then anything that annoys, irritates or provokes Ophelia can be called harassment.

Then again, I don't think that Ophelia quite means it in this way. She does seem convinced that, because she is a staunch defender of her team, and her team is correct, that all opposition to her or her team is illegitimate.
It isn't criticism in her eyes because there is nothing to criticise - why criticize the obviously correct answer?
Therefore it is harassment.

[BarnOwl]

300 women and JV. Just 300 going to WiS, though? That seems silly-small. The impact of this whole shebang on the wider Atheist/skeptic community seems to get smaller every time I hear Actual Numbers.

PeeZus is going. Why should he stay home and clean fish tanks, when he can fly off somewhere to schmooze and flaunt his smug moral superiority?

I am so looking forward to Women in Secularism: not only is it a sign of progress that atheism can broaden its reach, but it’s a meeting where I don’t have to give a talk, and so nothing is hanging over my head and I can just kick back and enjoy the entire event.

[BarnOwl]

it would not be entirely inaccurate to describe me as Amazonish.

Covered in vegetation and home to countless species unknown to science?

The parrots and butterflies in my hair are nice, but the monkeys are a bit too much.

[Gumby]

More from the neverending page of whining.

I think Vacula is on to something here.
It is a symbiotic relationship. 90% of comments on B and W come from drama posts rather than anything to do with religion and, as Justin suggests, Ophelia never shuts up about him. She's like a free PR firm.

Ophelia defines her station in life by the quantity and quality of the imaginary harassment she receives. She's trippin' the life stochastic.

[Aneris]

Quite honestly, would Aunt Ophelia not do anything the like she hardly would be mentioned here. How often is Sara Mayew mentioned, and how much of that is negative. None, or what? Suppose, she posted like Ally Fogg. Would you go against her, because patriarchy or misogyny? I doubt it. Nobody cared about Watson for a long time, only flared up briefly at the Reddit incident. And then again, FTBloggers comment on people elsewhere all the time, multiplied by the horde. Not to mention their open threads. Plus, we get treatment when we aren't even involved.

[bovarchist]

Ugh, I have a friend who seems to be heading down the feminism rabbit hole. A while back she made some comment about how I couldn't understand what life was like for women because I had a penis¹. She seemed taken aback that that comment would upset me, I'm not sure she understood why but at least she didn't pursue that line further. There ahve been other weird comments since. Now she's posted some link on Facebook to one of those "why I need feminism things," full of dubious claims. I won't touch any of it with a ten-foot-pole unless I have to, but I'd hate to lose a good friend over something as stupid as this. Because she's not unreasonable, but I can tell from the things she says sometimes that she's buying a rhetoric eerily similar to the FtB style feminism. I just hope it doesn't go that far. Feminism in moderation I can live with, and it might even be a good thing. Right, unsolicited venting over.

I think that if you scratch a feminist, you'll find a daddy's girl. What she really wants is for you to hold her hand and tell her how brave and special she is to face the world every day. It's tough being all grown up and having people expect stuff from you!

You could just tell her that that's how the world works, and she can't understand that because she has a vagina, but that might just lose you your friend. ;)

[Apples]

The YUMMYfister has her COMMENT POLICY post up. It's mostly predictably censorious, but the big takeaway is about the worthless, self-indulgent dreck that she calls her "poetry." COMMENTERS MUST NOT CRITICIZE YEMMI'S POEMS:

My Poems- I am a poet, I write poems and I post my poems on my blog. I appreciate that not everyone is going to like my poems, it might not be to your taste but remember, this is my blog, my own space and you have to treat it like you are a guest in my home.

Responsible adults know that manners are very important when one is a guest in a home. We teach children to behave properly especially when they are guests in other peoples’ homes. You do not have the right to be mannerless in my space. Yes, my blog is visible to the public and my posts are open for comments, but that still does not mean you have the liberty to come in and rain abuses on my poems or throw insults at me.

Remember, my poems are my works of art, this blog is my space, you are a guest, therefore you must mind your manners.

You are not forced to like or comment on my poems, you are not forced to buy it as it is not for sale on this blog, I am serving it as a free buffet, therefore throwing tantrums or insults at not just the poem but also the poet is ill-mannered and will not be tolerated.

Constructive reviews of my poems are welcome, but also bear in mind that I am not posting the poems to seek approval or get a pat on the back, I am posting because I love my poems, many others identify with my poems and they love it. I have been paid for a few of my poems, there have been requests for some to appear in reputable anthologies and a collection of my poems will soon be published. So, unless you have something of value to add to my work of art, don’t even bother to leave veiled sneering or jeering remarks because your approval is not needed.

Because she is not seeking approval for her sub-amateur poems or a pat on the back .... therefore she is going to post her poems and you had better not criticize her poems. Because your approval is not needed, therefore disapproving comments are not allowed. The fact that your hostess is offering up platters of dog turds and used chewing-gum at her "free buffet" doesn't give you the right to complain.

http://images.sodahead.com/polls/000908 ... large.jpeg

http://freethoughtblogs.com/yemmynistin ... nt-policy/

[BarnOwl]

More from the neverending page of whining.

I think Vacula is on to something here.
It is a symbiotic relationship. 90% of comments on B and W come from drama posts rather than anything to do with religion and, as Justin suggests, Ophelia never shuts up about him. She's like a free PR firm.

Ophelia defines her station in life by the quantity and quality of the imaginary harassment she receives. She's trippin' the life stochastic.

If only the harassment would stop, Ophelia could go back to what she was doing before the attacks began.

Whatever the hell that was.

[bovarchist]

300 women and JV. Just 300 going to WiS, though? That seems silly-small.

That's not silly. THAT..IS..SPARTA!!!

[Tony Parsehole]

The YUMMYfister has her COMMENT POLICY post up. It's mostly predictably censorious, but the big takeaway is about the worthless, self-indulgent dreck that she calls her "poetry." COMMENTERS MUST NOT CRITICIZE YEMMI'S POEMS:

My Poems- I am a poet, I write poems and I post my poems on my blog. I appreciate that not everyone is going to like my poems, it might not be to your taste but remember, this is my blog, my own space and you have to treat it like you are a guest in my home.

Responsible adults know that manners are very important when one is a guest in a home. We teach children to behave properly especially when they are guests in other peoples’ homes. You do not have the right to be mannerless in my space. Yes, my blog is visible to the public and my posts are open for comments, but that still does not mean you have the liberty to come in and rain abuses on my poems or throw insults at me.

Remember, my poems are my works of art, this blog is my space, you are a guest, therefore you must mind your manners.

You are not forced to like or comment on my poems, you are not forced to buy it as it is not for sale on this blog, I am serving it as a free buffet, therefore throwing tantrums or insults at not just the poem but also the poet is ill-mannered and will not be tolerated.

Constructive reviews of my poems are welcome, but also bear in mind that I am not posting the poems to seek approval or get a pat on the back, I am posting because I love my poems, many others identify with my poems and they love it. I have been paid for a few of my poems, there have been requests for some to appear in reputable anthologies and a collection of my poems will soon be published. So, unless you have something of value to add to my work of art, don’t even bother to leave veiled sneering or jeering remarks because your approval is not needed.

Because she is not seeking approval for her sub-amateur poems or a pat on the back .... therefore she is going to post her poems and you had better not criticize her poems. Because your approval is not needed, therefore disapproving comments are not allowed. The fact that your hostess is offering up platters of dog turds and used chewing-gum at her "free buffet" doesn't give you the right to complain.

http://images.sodahead.com/polls/000908 ... large.jpeg

http://freethoughtblogs.com/yemmynistin ... nt-policy/

Poor Yemmi. If she's serious about poetry,then she needs to learn that the only way to improve is by listening to criticism.

Yemmi, when we say your poems are the ramblings of sex starved cretin, devoid of any emotion or subtlety it's only because we care so much.

[Tony Parsehole]

Fuck my grammar in the ear.

[TedDahlberg]

*my whining snipped*

I think that if you scratch a feminist, you'll find a daddy's girl. What she really wants is for you to hold her hand and tell her how brave and special she is to face the world every day. It's tough being all grown up and having people expect stuff from you!

You could just tell her that that's how the world works, and she can't understand that because she has a vagina, but that might just lose you your friend. ;)

I would not put it exactly like that, but I do agree that it's probably often an element of "look at me! look at me!" present. Which would be more bearable if it was coupled with some degree of self-awareness instead of a grand conspiracy theory of society maliciously holding them back. Through naked people in ads.

Eh, I'll try to think of something which makes me seem a bit more morally superior if I have to pull a "good day madame! I said good day!" ;)

[TedDahlberg]

Poor Yemmi. If she's serious about poetry,then she needs to learn that the only way to improve is by listening to criticism.

Yemmi, when we say your poems are the ramblings of sex starved cretin, devoid of any emotion or subtlety it's only because we care so much.

“If you show someone something you've written, you give them a sharpened stake, lie down in your coffin, and say, ‘When you’re ready’.”
― David Mitchell

[bovarchist]

I doubt that listening to criticism ever improved anyone's poetry very much. The only way to improve your poetry is to expand your experience and deepen your understanding of the world. And metaphors. Lots of 'em.

[Aneris]

I haven't paid particular attention to it, but acting like assholes also doesn't achieve much. Constructive criticism is different, for sure.

[windy]

I agree completely when you say "IME spending time around people who you are constantly afraid to offend, while they are quite happy to scold you, are unhealthy friendships," and frankly that's advice everyone should hear. I experienced a textbook example with another person who I'd known for years. They were vegetarian when I met them, and slowly became more and more vegan over the years, to the point that there wasn't a single piece of food in my house good enough for them, and they'd make sure to let me know that they were indeed a little better than me because I ate meat.

http://blogs.friendlybeings.com/fun/wp- ... 80x433.jpg

[BarnOwl]

I agree completely when you say "IME spending time around people who you are constantly afraid to offend, while they are quite happy to scold you, are unhealthy friendships," and frankly that's advice everyone should hear. I experienced a textbook example with another person who I'd known for years. They were vegetarian when I met them, and slowly became more and more vegan over the years, to the point that there wasn't a single piece of food in my house good enough for them, and they'd make sure to let me know that they were indeed a little better than me because I ate meat.

http://blogs.friendlybeings.com/fun/wp- ... 80x433.jpg

I attended a meeting held at UC Santa Cruz years ago, and when friends and I were perusing a university bulletin board, we noticed one particular ad for a roommate. There was a brief description of the house and its vegetarian occupants, and then the line:

Red meat negotiable.

[TedDahlberg]

I doubt that listening to criticism ever improved anyone's poetry very much. The only way to improve your poetry is to expand your experience and deepen your understanding of the world. And metaphors. Lots of 'em.

It had nothing to do with criticism, but my own poetry improved immeasurably when I admitted to myself that I was crap at it and stopped writing it.


I had to do a quick google to check… and indeed, the old horrible homepage where I put some of it still exists. Damn you Internet, why won't you forget?

[TedDahlberg]

I agree completely when you say "IME spending time around people who you are constantly afraid to offend, while they are quite happy to scold you, are unhealthy friendships," and frankly that's advice everyone should hear. I experienced a textbook example with another person who I'd known for years. They were vegetarian when I met them, and slowly became more and more vegan over the years, to the point that there wasn't a single piece of food in my house good enough for them, and they'd make sure to let me know that they were indeed a little better than me because I ate meat.

http://blogs.friendlybeings.com/fun/wp- ... 80x433.jpg

:clap:

[Southern]

I genuinely always laugh my ass off when I see Nerd posting. He has a hand in always finding a quote where it is most nonsensical. Have you seen this one?

There’s no reasoning with people who have already made up their mind, and willfully shut out other opinions.

That’s you. Show us EVIDENCE, not your OPINION. Your OPINION is *floosh* dismissed as unevidenced fuckwittery.

The word "fuckwittery", for some reason, reeks of Physioproffe to me.

[Dave]

I genuinely always laugh my ass off when I see Nerd posting. He has a hand in always finding a quote where it is most nonsensical. Have you seen this one?

There’s no reasoning with people who have already made up their mind, and willfully shut out other opinions.

That’s you. Show us EVIDENCE, not your OPINION. Your OPINION is *floosh* dismissed as unevidenced fuckwittery.

The word "fuckwittery", for some reason, reeks of Physioproffe to me.

Wouldn't he spell it "fuckeewittereeee?"

Hmmmm... That makes me wonder: All those posts that PZ disemvoweled over the years, maybe Phyyysiioooprofffeee is just trying to recycle for PZ.