Jim the Pleb Made Me Do It

[free thoughtpolice]

Oh and about the thread "Calling all muslims to east London today", I was the one (abear) who first notified Maryam Namazie and subsequently Anne Marie Waters that the idiot Muslim that disrupted the meeting outed himself on that thread on IA.

Interesting. I followed some of that discussion but had periodically wondered what the final resolutions had been.

But it seems like there’s some serious pushback coming down the pike; although my impression is that the French have, credibly and justifiably, been the ones to kick various Muslims out of the country. One of my arguments on IA was that the history of mass expulsions of various groups who don’t buy into the prevailing set of values should be causing many Muslims to be much more circumspect about their demands ….

I gather that the police were notified that "Abu Maryam" (pretty sure not M Namazie's father) was likely the idiot that ran masked through the meeting, taking pictures and threatening people. I don't think he was charged with anything but there was some pretty fast backpedalling of rhetoric and disavowal of the incident at IA for a while after that. Also, Abu Maryam, who was a regular poster there made himself scarce for a while after that incident.

[JackSkeptic]

I always find it interesting how these 'revelations' and trolls suddenly pop up on cue. It is like they are providing ammunition just at the time it is needed. How convenient.

Ok, so not being from the UK, I really don't know much about this topic. It DOES look like the people who do know about this topic called the guy out as soon as it was read, though. I don't see how this gains anyone any "points" due to his undisclosed (until now) affiliations (which were immediately decried).

It did not stop Nugent picking on a troll picture and PMZ for that matter as an indicator of the Slympit in general. They do not convince anyone except their own followers but people like Carrier use it to smoke screen their actual objectives. It was fundamental to his recent speech and fundamentally unskeptical at best and dishonest at worst. The same as Christians need the Devil and immorality as an enemy they need us and I find the timing suspicious.

[debaser71]

I could care less...but I don't.

[Steersman]

<snip>
You guys have seen by now the other studies I have mentioned on the subject at least twice by now. So I will just list a couple of the latest ones I am aware of:

Negative stereotypes about boys hinder their academic achievement
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/ ... 020513.php
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 9/abstract

Non-cognitive Skills and the Gender Disparities in Test Scores and Teacher Assessments:
Evidence from Primary School
http://www.terry.uga.edu/~cornwl/resear ... rdiffs.pdf

Wait... so now we agree that stereotype threat is real? :think:

I do not recall arguing to the contrary the last time it came up. As a matter of fact I do not recall saying anything about the subject at all.

I suppose I could have mentioned this though:

Study shows gender bias in science is real. Here’s why it matters.
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/uno ... ers/[quote]
Results found that the “female” applicants were rated significantly lower than the “males” in competence, hireability, and whether the scientist would be willing to mentor the student.
...
Both male and female scientists were equally guilty of committing the gender bias. Yes – women can behave in ways that are sexist, too. Women need to examine their attitudes and actions toward women just as much as men do. What this suggests is that the biases likely did not arise from overt misogyny but were rather a manifestation of subtler prejudices internalized from societal stereotypes.

Here is the study:

Science faculty’s subtle gender biases favor male students
http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/ ... 6109#aff-1

Just because you do not like something does not mean it may not be true. *shrug* YMMV[/quote]
I read a few bits and pieces in those other studies, and no doubt invalid discrimination takes place. But I have to wonder if “negative stereotypes about boys hinder their academic achievement” then why is it that “gender biases favour male students” and male job applicants? Maybe there is in fact simply an “in-group morality; out-group hostility” value system in play, but it seems that other more credible factors might be having some influence on the valuations in that SA study, even if the hypothetical individual women in that study were unfairly judged.

Interesting phenomenon though, and it seems related to questions of different insurance rates for different demographics: judging not on individual attributes but on the behaviours of the group, and the probabilities that the individual will conform to "type".

[Jan Steen]

Not sure if it was posted yet - Thunderf00t on Carrier.

[youtube]95LG9crl3yo[/youtube]

I am not going to make any comments on Carrier's physical characteristics by the way, but I am struggling.

Carrier is a demagogue with the charisma of dentist's drill. And a demagogue without charisma is like a pianist without fingers. So I don't think we have to worry much about this lilliput Trotsky.

(And Thunderf00t used my Stalin cartoon. Yay. Fame at last.)

[JAB]

So, we may finally have a bona-fide Neo-Nazi on the Pit? That would cause PZ to have such an orgasm, his screams of pleasure would echo through all the globe.

So please DO NOT be a bona-fide Neo-Nazi. I don't want to hear that fatass's orgasmic chants.

I for one could care less what PeeZuss Christ thinks. I am more interested in what Bhurzum thinks the BNP would achieve and why.

No! ... musn't... correct... syntax... no... I can't... stop it...

Surely you mean 'couldn't care less'?

SHIT!

That winds me up too.

om7O0MFkmpw

Loved the soapbox video and it convinced me. The argument that the "could care less" phrase is common and therefore acceptable I don't buy because it isn't common in all of the english speaking world. It's also wrong as Mitchel points out in the vid. The proper form is "I don't care what PZ thinks" Universal, clear, doesn't require any unpacking, and definitely true. If it were just an awkward phrase or expletive that wasn't universal I wouldn't mind, but it's wrong... I imagine you are trying to say you don't care, then why say you could care less? It doesn't make sense.

[Submariner]

It did not stop Nugent picking on a troll picture and PMZ for that matter as an indicator of the Slympit in general. They do not convince anyone except their own followers but people like Carrier use it to smoke screen their actual objectives. It was fundamental to his recent speech and fundamentally unskeptical at best and dishonest at worst. The same as Christians need the Devil and immorality as an enemy they need us and I find the timing suspicious.

True enough. Although I checked his join date and 4 months is a long time to set up a minor "gotcha moment". I might read through his other posts in this new light.

[dustbubble]

Well done Thaumas! You and your pals have managed to snooze the Pit to death.

;)

Here you go Phil. Miles better than unhealthy popcorn.
http://www.porkscratchingworld.com/Grap ... goleft.gifhttp://www.porkscratchingworld.com/Graphics/LogoPig.gifhttp://www.porkscratchingworld.com/Grap ... oRight.gif

Of course like with football and atheism, the posh kids have decided to expropriate their oppressors, the plebes.
So they're giving away the guild secrets of the Ages for nowt.
http://lukehoney.typepad.com/the_greasy ... -cold.html
http://justcookit.blogspot.co.uk/2009/0 ... t-one.html

But as you can see it's pretty much your standard Mrs Beeton ("Firstly, skin a large pig, and kill it to death. Twice.")
Shouldn't nonpluss a true Frenchman for longer than it takes to find a sharp knife and the correct oil.

[dustbubble]

[img]"Aaagh![/img]

What the fuck is that, on the wall? Trigger warning required!

[Bhurzum]

Sorry folks, had a small scale emergency to deal with: Two daughters in their teens, so many first world problems and so little time.

Where was I?

Ah yes, first things first...

My net-name: As I've "argued" with several theists (on YT) is a reference to the works of Tolkien. "Burzum" means "darkness" in the Orcish tongue, google the inscription on the "one" ring if you require proof. "Bhurzum" has been my net-name for years because "Burzum" (the correct spelling) has been co-opted by assorted fuckwits from the "black metal" fraternity. Indeed, I was blissfully unaware of the band until a theist (falsely) made the same accusation/connection that has been repeated here. I've checked out their music, it's crap. Sorry to burst that particular bubble. Anyway, all that remains if for one (or more) of you to highlight the fact that Tolkien was catholic before making that (false) accusation/connection.

Are we clear on that?

My political view(s): Pretty straight forward really. I strongly agree with two* elements of BNP policy: Immigration control and national service.

I'm not a "nazi" (it would be funny if it wasn't such a pathetic accusation), far from it! I'm ex-Army (22 years completed) and as such, I've devoted a considerable portion of my adult life to the spread of democracy. The first Gulf war, Bosnia (IFOR & SFOR), Kosovo, Iraq (several OP TELIC tours under my belt) and a few other "bits and pieces" that I'll not go into. Basically, I served my country, sacrificed a number of basic "rights" that you guys enjoy on a day-to-day basis and have come out the other end. It ruined my marriage (long tours tend to do that!), alienated me from my family and if I'm to be completely honest, turned me pretty sour at the end of my service.

So, what's all that got to do with the BNP?

I've seen the state of Islamic countries, I've worked in the dirt with civilians and military alike and don't like the way it's spreading to the West. Islamic (Sharia) law is oppressive, places a stranglehold on any society it touches and is utterly incompatible with western values and standards. Having said that, I like to think that I'm flogging a dead horse by saying all this. Hopefully you understand where I'm coming from. If you disagree, that's fine. No biggie, we're in a democracy and you have my full support. Have at it! But please, calling me a "nazi" is just...pathetic.

Note: I don't "hate" any one group or nationality because of my political leanings or upbringing. I don't "hate" any one group or nationality at all. I don't give one squirt of piss what colour your skin is, where you're from or what you believe in. However, I reserve the right to (peacefully!) protest your activities if they have a negative effect on my family, my home or my way of life. Likewise, I reserve the right to use the ballot box as a form of protest when I see fat cunt politicians lining their pockets as our country is ground into the dirt.

National service: A good thing if you ask me. The youth of today would greatly benefit from a burst of discipline and steady instruction.

Note: like everything/anything in politics, there are pro's and con's.

Bottom line: I'm tired, stressed out from dealing with my eldest kid and her shenanigans. I'm pretty far removed from "blogger" material (pig-thick squaddie and all that) but hopefully this has served a purpose. My written English is pretty flaky to say the least (I'm Scottish, what do you expect!) but I like to think this might shed some light on my views.

Over to you guys for a (predictable) game of word-twister.


* The other parties don't touch these issues or barely scratch the surface.

[Michael J]

So, we may finally have a bona-fide Neo-Nazi on the Pit? That would cause PZ to have such an orgasm, his screams of pleasure would echo through all the globe.

So please DO NOT be a bona-fide Neo-Nazi. I don't want to hear that fatass's orgasmic chants.

I for one could care less what PeeZuss Christ thinks. I am more interested in what Bhurzum thinks the BNP would achieve and why.

No! ... musn't... correct... syntax... no... I can't... stop it...

Surely you mean 'couldn't care less'?

SHIT!

Well, I could go all Steersman on you and point out that it seems to me that either could work. However, we can agree that the former does imply that there is room before the floor is attained, whereas the latter leaves no doubt.

Nonetheless, your concern is noted. :lol:

I think the usage depends on the country Americans tend to say "could care less" while the rest of the English speaking world says "couldn't care less". This is pretty much based on the fact that I only ever hear the former in US TV and movies.

[Apples]

Heil Hitler.

[AndrewV69]

I read a few bits and pieces in those other studies, and no doubt invalid discrimination takes place. But I have to wonder if “negative stereotypes about boys hinder their academic achievement” then why is it that “gender biases favour male students” and male job applicants? Maybe there is in fact simply an “in-group morality; out-group hostility” value system in play, but it seems that other more credible factors might be having some influence on the valuations in that SA study, even if the hypothetical individual women in that study were unfairly judged.

It does seem like there is something of a contradiction. I would be interested in seeing how the two could be reconciled, otherwise we seemingly will have to believe two contradictory things at the same time.

Care to expand a bit on the “in-group morality; out-group hostility”? How would this apply to boys in school?

Interesting phenomenon though, and it seems related to questions of different insurance rates for different demographics: judging not on individual attributes but on the behaviours of the group, and the probabilities that the individual will conform to "type".

Speaking of insurance remember this?

Women count cost of car insurance as EU gender rules come into force
http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2012/de ... surance-eu

New EU gender rules mean women could pay up to 40% more for car insurance – and men will lose out on annuities

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... rules.html

Experts predict women drivers aged under 26 now face a 25 per cent rise in car insurance rates – while premiums for ‘boy racers’ will be cut by 10 per cent.

At the same time, the income a man receives for life from his pension will be cut by as much as 8 per cent, or hundreds of pounds each year.

[cunt]

My political view(s): Pretty straight forward really. I strongly agree with two* elements of BNP policy: Immigration control and national service.

Thinking they're actually all about "immigration control" is pretty naive but seeing as that's been one of their strategies I can see its plausible at least for some people could fall for it.

I'm wondering, have you seen this vid? Nick Griffin talking to white nationalists over in america?

[youtube]04QolIvfQEw[/youtube]

What do you make of it?

[Steersman]

Sorry folks, had a small scale emergency to deal with: Two daughters in their teens, so many first world problems and so little time.

<snip>

I've seen the state of Islamic countries, I've worked in the dirt with civilians and military alike and don't like the way it's spreading to the West. Islamic (Sharia) law is oppressive, places a stranglehold on any society it touches and is utterly incompatible with western values and standards. Having said that, I like to think that I'm flogging a dead horse by saying all this.

Not in my book – I think it quite problematic, as I’ve argued earlier, that many seem to be looking at Islam through some rose-coloured if not self-serving glasses. I figure more people should be sounding the “alarums” in whatever way they can – within legal constraints, of course.

“BNP” and all the rest? That is an entirely different kettle of fish, and, as I know next to nothing of them, I won’t say much.

[rayshul]

Woah, what the fuck is with this sudden calling Bhurzum a nazi? Motherfuck, that's fucking FtB level debate. Good fucking grief.

Someone says something they don't agree with and without questioning it's all fucking NAZIIIIIII fucking time.

I completely understand people voting for the BNP. I don't think most are doing it for necessarily racist reasons but because of other social reasons as Bhurzum has described. Note that the BNP gets their best numbers during the rise of *political* Islam in the UK. If you're fucked off with how the right and the left address these issues and they are important to you, then yes I think it's a fucking smart move to throw in a protest vote with the BNP. I also suspect generational poverty amongst the English poor which people don't feel are being addressed, and low-quality of life for poor retirees is another contributing factor - if you feel your country is prioritising the needs of migrants over yours, I would be shitted off as well.

Support immediately dwindled after the first surge for the BNP - they lost their seats, etc. That says protest voters to me.

[cunt]

Support immediately dwindled after the first surge for the BNP - they lost their seats, etc. That says protest voters to me.

Says to me that the BNP councillors were actually just thick as fucking pig-shit and weren't fit for office. People had to experience that first though.

[rayshul]

Support immediately dwindled after the first surge for the BNP - they lost their seats, etc. That says protest voters to me.

Says to me that the BNP councillors were actually just thick as fucking pig-shit and weren't fit for office. People had to experience that first though.

Being thick as fucking pig-shit and not fit for office is not always a voting deterrent.

[Michael J]

(I'm also a platinum member of the Trafalgar Club :lol: )

So can you expand a bit on why you vote for the BNP?

Agreed. I want to honestly know why a Brit would vote BNP. I can understand not liking Labour Or Conservatives but the BNP are fucking bona-fide, racist loons.

Well, the first thing that came to mind was for the purpose of "strategic voting". But we will not know till he tells us.

(I like minority governments for example. So I will vote accordingly, and not along party lines)

I think a lot of people vote green in Australia - not because they ever want them in Government but as a protest against the traditional left party (Labor) moving to the right. I think that the politics in the US would be much different if there were minor parties.

[Guest]

i was going to bring up the tolkien reference, but i see you already got around to that

i suppose people could care less

:P

[Bhurzum]

My political view(s): Pretty straight forward really. I strongly agree with two* elements of BNP policy: Immigration control and national service.

Thinking they're actually all about "immigration control" is pretty naive but seeing as that's been one of their strategies I can see its plausible at least for some people could fall for it.

I'm wondering, have you seen this vid? Nick Griffin talking to white nationalists over in america?

[youtube]04QolIvfQEw[/youtube]

What do you make of it?

To be quite frank, Griffin is his own worst enemy. He's spewed some seriously vile shit over the years, shot himself (and the BNP) in the foot and played right into the hands of the only-too-keen media.

However, the two key issues I've already highlighted are still enough to swing it for me. If any of the other mainstream parties adopted similar policies (and stopped acting like greedy cunts), I'd probably jump ship in a heartbeat.

It's also worth pointing out that your average BNP member (these days) is a far cry from the jack-booted and shaven headed fuckwit of the past. I've rubbed shoulders with doctors, nurses, teachers, coppers, firemen, lawyers and all manner of "normal" civilians. We're a pretty diverse cross-section of society.

I'm well aware of the irony in that last sentence...

[rayshul]

I think a lot of people vote green in Australia - not because they ever want them in Government but as a protest against the traditional left party (Labor) moving to the right. I think that the politics in the US would be much different if there were minor parties.

I've voted Green before (a long time ago) but even then the idea of them in power was fucking terrifying.

[codelette]

That girl with the amputation fetish posted this at Eberhard's blog...

When I look down at my leg, I won’t see a piss-poor excuse for an organic part, a reminder of how damaged and broken I am – I’ll see the beauty of carbon fiber and titanium, and a reminder that this community came together when I really needed help.

If you the videos on her Youtube channel, you'll notice that's she's enjoying that shit way too much.

[cunt]

Support immediately dwindled after the first surge for the BNP - they lost their seats, etc. That says protest voters to me.

Says to me that the BNP councillors were actually just thick as fucking pig-shit and weren't fit for office. People had to experience that first though.

Being thick as fucking pig-shit and not fit for office is not always a voting deterrent.

True, but here's some high-lights from the BNP anyway.

Luke Smith (Burnley). Was forced to resign after he smashed a bottle into the face of a Leeds BNP organiser. Despite claiming to be the party of law and order, the BNP failed to call in the police and press charges. Smith had only recently been convicted of football violence when he was elected as a BNP candidate. He has had several more recent convictions and was sentenced to 11 months imprisonment after being caught fighting in Manchester.

Dan Kelley (Barking & Dagenham). Resigned from the council only eight months after being elected after admitting that he was completely out of his depth. “There’s meetings that go right over my head and there’s little point in me being there,” he told the local paper even before he resigned.

David Watkins (Sandwell). Dubbed ‘possibly the worst councillor in Sandwell,’ Watkins attended just 10 out of 63 meetings. Gave up after just one year.

Steve Batkin (Stoke-on-Trent). Steve Batkin attended none of a possible thirty committee meetings in the nine months to March 2005. Batkin has only spoken twice in his first two years as a councillor and one of those was to ask what “abstain” meant. Was once told to stop talking to the media after he questioned key facts relating to the Holocaust, including saying that Jewish people refused to debate the subject because they would be exposed as liars.

Terry Farr (Epping). Was suspended by the Standards Board after writing abusive letters. The hearing also said that it was fair political comment for a rival candidate to call the BNP Nazi.

http://libcom.org/news/article.php/rubb ... ors-100406

[acathode]

To the extent that there has been a bit of PC shielding of muslims by the left and liberals. You have to remember that its not all been for bad reasons. In the last decade or so we've been seeing some upsurge in far right, fascist organisations. Major street protests under the guise of "not racist, just hate islam". Yeah no, those cunts are genuinely racists. The old national front, neo-nazis, football hooligans and the like did not suddenly become hyper-concerned about womens rights.

The problem with this mindset is that very often, at least in Sweden, this "shielding" of islam or even immigration/immigrants from criticism, or even from discussion at all, is that it often has taken very unreasonable forms. This opens up a very big weakness that sooner or later will be exploited by the same racists that they intend to combat, it allows the racists to appear to be the reasonable and ration people, while their opponents appear to be sputtering lunatics whose only argument seem to be shouting "RACISTS!!!!!" and shut down any discussion.

This is the tactic that the Sweden Democrat party ("SD") has VERY successfully used here at least. Our media here have completely failed to host a rational discussion about immigration or islam for decades, anyone who've tried starting one automatically got labeled as a racist, effectively preventing any constructive discussion to take place.

As a result, SD could exploit this to gain martyrdom status by claiming they were unfairly being labeled racists when in reality they were only political party that tried to address and had solutions to the issues surrounding immigration. Step by step, they managed to paint themselves as the honest ones with the truth on their side, while the "old media" and "the establishment" was dishonest and even antidemocratic in their attempts to twart the people from voting SD - and it was easy for SD to do this, because our media played straight into their hand by actually being biased, dishonest and went back and forth between the two tactics of either ignoring SD completely or trying to demonize them.

The result is that SD got almost 6% of the votes last election, and I wouldn't be surprised if they became the 3rd largest party in the next election with 10%+. Meanwhile the journalists and political experts stands dumbfounded, not understanding why the population aren't voting the way they tell them to, even though pretty much every newspaper or TV-program are painting SD as evil racists people their numbers just keep rising. They don't understand that a large portion of the population have lost all their trust in them.

The thing is that our media and political parties have painted themselves into a corner, no matter what they do they lose. If they suddenly started being more rational and less emotional and not accused everyone of racism whenever it came to immigration or Islam, they'd indeed very publicly lend SD credibility. They had a chance to do this before SD got any real power, but by now it's to late, SD is to big. However, if they don't do this, SD will keep feeding on the martyrdom and image of being the only political party that have any solutions when it comes to immigration.
They're quite screwed, and it's all by their own making, if they'd allowed rational discussion about these issues from the start, SD would still be a marginalized crap party formed by piss-drunk skinheads running around doing nazi salutes while belching out the national hymn.

This is really one of the reasons I so strongly disagree with so many SJWs in general and FTB in particular, they are using the exact same tactic that "the establishment" in Sweden tried using, ie. screamed racists, misogynist, sexism, etc at anything and everything, tried to shut down discussions, and prefer appeals to emotions, well-poisoning, strawmen, and other crappy tactics instead of rational discussion.

I've seen first hand how utterly damaging this tactic is, it's not only that goes against skepticism and therefore shouldn't have a place in the skeptic community, it also hurts the very same causes that the SJWs claim to be fighting for.

[cunt]

I've rubbed shoulders with doctors, nurses, teachers, coppers, firemen, lawyers and all manner of "normal" civilians. We're a pretty diverse cross-section of society.

I diverse cross-section of society who are apparently unknowingly supporting a bunch of thugs in suits. How wonderful...

[Steersman]

I read a few bits and pieces in those other studies, and no doubt invalid discrimination takes place. But I have to wonder if “negative stereotypes about boys hinder their academic achievement” then why is it that “gender biases favour male students” and male job applicants? Maybe there is in fact simply an “in-group morality; out-group hostility” value system in play, but it seems that other more credible factors might be having some influence on the valuations in that SA study, even if the hypothetical individual women in that study were unfairly judged.

It does seem like there is something of a contradiction. I would be interested in seeing how the two could be reconciled, otherwise we seemingly will have to believe two contradictory things at the same time.

Care to expand a bit on the “in-group morality; out-group hostility”? How would this apply to boys in school?

The anthropologist John Hartung also has an interesting article on the topic: (Love Thy Neighbor: The evolution of in-group morality). But I was thinking in the case of the job-applicants that the males (supposedly, although I don’t recollect the details) doing the evaluations would have had a bias towards their own sex – maybe a “devil you know versus the one you don’t” factor. And that there could well be many other factors involved, some more credible than others.

And in the case of the boys in school, that might be the other side of the coin as I’ve read that most grade-school teachers are female so the bias is possibly the other way, accounting for those “negative stereotypes about boys”.

As that SA study mentioned at the beginning, all sorts of factors in play that are not easy, if at all possible, to differentiate. Which leads me to take its conclusions with a grain or two of salt. And somewhat apropos, I just noticed Benson has a new post on the “S-word!” – aka, stereotype. Seems many have some difficulty comprehending the fact that stereotypes can very frequently be true of some segment of a population, and less frequently the entire population. Bit of a sticky wicket in judging the entire population on the basis of one segment of it – racism or sexism – but maybe some justification for using the stereotype as a predictor of possible behavioural responses.

[Bhurzum]

True, but here's some high-lights from the BNP anyway.

Name a political party (any political party) and it would be easy to dig up shit to lay at their door.

[Apples]

Griffin seems quite obviously to be a racist lunatic, which would matter less if he weren't chairman of the party with "full executive power over all party affairs" and "final say in all decisions in the party," per wikipedia. It's also clearly hyperbole to suggest that anyone who would vote for the BNP is a neo-Nazi, but Griffin is repellent enough that I can understand why BNP-voters are stigmatized by the association.

[rayshul]

YES acathode!!!! Can I say ^This.

[AndrewV69]

* The other parties don't touch these issues or barely scratch the surface.

I suppose it might have an affect, similar to the impact the Le Pen dynasty has had on French politics if more people started voting for the BNP.

What about UKIP though?

[cunt]

It's also clearly hyperbole to suggest that anyone who would vote for the BNP is a neo-Nazi, but Griffin is repellent enough that I can understand why BNP-voters are stigmatized by the association.

Who called him a neo-nazi? Git said:

Here's a hint: if you proudly admit to being a member of what is basically a neo-nazi party at heart, then I can fucking well make some reasonable assumptions about you

That doesn't say that one or all of those reasonable assumptions is that you yourself are a neo-nazi. Another might be that you're simply a bit slow. Racist on the weekend, who knows? I imagined a hypothetical situation of Bhurzum wanking over Mein Kampf, but that's not calling him a neo-nazi either. Just re-inforcing Git's point about being able to make some reasonable assumptions based on this limited information.

All reasonable like.

[Bhurzum]

* The other parties don't touch these issues or barely scratch the surface.

I suppose it might have an affect, similar to the impact the Le Pen dynasty has had on French politics if more people started voting for the BNP.

What about UKIP though?

UKIP are growing in popularity and as such, they're probably a more realistic option. Additionally, Nigel Farage is a blast! He certainly pulls no punches!

[Apples]

All reasonable like.

As Crommie and PZ would say, everyone is a neo-Nazi - the key is to admit it and shut up and listen when the Romani are talking.

[Bhurzum]

All reasonable like.

As Crommie and PZ would say, everyone is a neo-Nazi - the key is to admit it and shut up and listen when the Romani are talking.

I must admit, I wish I'd kept my pie-hole shut on this topic.

Open and honest to a fault...

[Guest]

All reasonable like.

As Crommie and PZ would say, everyone is a neo-Nazi - the key is to admit it and shut up and listen when the Romani are talking.

seems reasonable

[cunt]

All reasonable like.

As Crommie and PZ would say, everyone is a neo-Nazi - the key is to admit it and shut up and listen when the Romani are talking.

I must admit, I wish I'd kept my pie-hole shut on this topic.

Open and honest to a fault...

Actually its one of those times that its good to be able to come out with this sort of stuff. If you're not actually a racist person, I think you're going to find it hard to justify voting for such an obviously racist party. If a discussion here might persuade you to shift your vote to anywhere else, even UKIP, that's probably a good thing.

[Tigzy]

So, what's all that got to do with the BNP?

I've seen the state of Islamic countries, I've worked in the dirt with civilians and military alike and don't like the way it's spreading to the West. Islamic (Sharia) law is oppressive, places a stranglehold on any society it touches and is utterly incompatible with western values and standards. Having said that, I like to think that I'm flogging a dead horse by saying all this. Hopefully you understand where I'm coming from. If you disagree, that's fine. No biggie, we're in a democracy and you have my full support. Have at it! But please, calling me a "nazi" is just...pathetic.

You're aware that Nick Griffin attempted to forge links with both Gaddaffi and the Ayatollah Khomeni, right? Though I admit, I am kinda guessing that he didn't try to contact them on the basis of delivering a lecture on the evils of Sharia law.

Membership of the National Front declined significantly following the election of the Conservatives under Margaret Thatcher. As a result the party became more radicalised, and a dissatisfied Griffin, along with fellow NF activists Derek Holland and Patrick Harrington, began to embrace the ideals of Italian fascist Roberto Fiore (Fiore had arrived in the UK in 1980). By 1983, the group had broken away to form the NF Political Soldier faction, which advocated a revival of country "values" and a return to feudalism with the establishment of nationalist communes.[20] Writing for Bulldog in 1985, Griffin praised the black separatist Louis Farrakhan,[21] but his comments were unpopular with some members of the party.[22] He also attempted to form alliances with Libya's Muammar al-Gaddafi and Iran's Ayatollah Khomeini,[23] and praised the efforts of Welsh nationalist movement Meibion Glyndŵr.[24]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Griffin

True, Griffin isn't the leader of the BNP anymore, and it remains moot if the present party leadership (such as it is at the moment - last I looked, things were pretty shambolic on that front) might have a similarly opportunistic view of Islam (ie, it can be exploited to capture support from people who have genuine fears about sharia law, as opposed to disgruntlement about foreign immigrants). From what I can see, the BNP has largely been concerned with 'window dressing' to disguise what it's really been about - KKK style racism (as the YT vid linked by Cunt demonstrated), with more antipathy reserved for the Jews rather than muslims (the BNP, under Griffin's directorship, effectively served as more 'electable' variation on the old NF - however, again it remains moot that that new variation required the rank and file to actually drop the kind of anti-semitism of which Griffin's former cohort John Tyndall was notorious for). Admittedly, that could have changed in recent years, and it could indeed be argued that it's unfair to keep the, er, modern go-getting BNP shackled to the infamies of the past. The trouble is, with an outfit like the BNP, I can't see how it's unreasonable to give them the benefit of the doubt when the kind of things they were known for could still conceivably come to the fore should they ever get any real power. It could be a genuine theatre of horrors, involving things which are not easily undone by simply voting them out at the next election - if indeed they do adhere to a democratic mandate, which is something I have serious doubts about also.

[Bourne Skeptic]

All reasonable like.

As Crommie and PZ would say, everyone is a neo-Nazi - the key is to admit it and shut up and listen when the Romani are talking.

I must admit, I wish I'd kept my pie-hole shut on this topic.

Open and honest to a fault...

I hope you can see why people have a problem with what the BNP represents.

[rayshul]

All reasonable like.

As Crommie and PZ would say, everyone is a neo-Nazi - the key is to admit it and shut up and listen when the Romani are talking.

I must admit, I wish I'd kept my pie-hole shut on this topic.

Open and honest to a fault...

I'm glad you did. It exposes I think the knee-jerk reactions people have and the quickness they'd condemn. As acathode pointed out, it's much like the FtB stifling debate by shouting MISOGYNIST. We should talk about things and ask questions first before running right in with accusations. I think most opinions have some rational background or a context that makes sense.

[Pitchguest]

Ladies and gents (ha!), the myth of patriarchy has been busted once and for all. Miriam at FtB has all the facts,

http://freethoughtblogs.com/brutereason ... mment-7400

Evidence for patriarchy is (among other things): not enough women in executive positions, not enough women in artistic positions, and ... (it's a bit confusing, because her syntax sort of implies it's the other way around) not enough women hurting or killing men.

If patriarchy did not exist, women would be just as likely to be hurt or killed by a man as men are to be hurt or killed by a woman. They are not.

As I said, the syntax is hilariously off, but I get what she meant. It's fucked up.

Imagine if a woman would look at rape statistics and conclude the patriarchy is real because there aren't enough women who rape men. Bonkers.

[Dan]

Not sure if it was posted yet - Thunderf00t on Carrier.

[youtube]95LG9crl3yo[/youtube]

I am not going to make any comments on Carrier's physical characteristics by the way, but I am struggling.

Carrier wonders why his video recieved so many downvotes? He lied. Anyone with any sense knew that. What was amazing to me was the applause he received while in the middle of telling lies. What does that say about AA? Hell, what does it say about AA for inviting a congenital liar?

I liked it until Tf00t Godwined. Even if the analogies are in some way valid; Nazi Germany comparisons are the last thing you should reach for when trying to sway the undecideds, because they're too easy to dismiss as hyperbole.

I think you'll find that Richard Cranium brought up Hitler first and Thunderf00t was working off that.

[Apples]

All reasonable like.

As Crommie and PZ would say, everyone is a neo-Nazi - the key is to admit it and shut up and listen when the Romani are talking.

I must admit, I wish I'd kept my pie-hole shut on this topic.

Open and honest to a fault...

I'm glad you did. It exposes I think the knee-jerk reactions people have and the quickness they'd condemn. As acathode pointed out, it's much like the FtB stifling debate by shouting MISOGYNIST. We should talk about things and ask questions first before running right in with accusations. I think most opinions have some rational background or a context that makes sense.

Burn him at the stake! I mean.... ^

Vote UKIP! They have a "Save our Pubs" campaign of some sort. As an American, I have found this whole conversation edificational.

[Tigzy]

I <3 UKIP, cos they split the tory vote. :D

[Keating]

Cunt is one of the reasons I still lurk here occasionally.

So, is the UK worth living in? I'm an Australian who also happens to have (Eastern) European citizenship. I was offered a job in Surrey, and I'm strongly considering taking it. A couple of things hold me back. The money would be a lot worse than what I'm earning in Australia (somewhat offset by things being a little cheaper). The economy looks shit, with little sign of improving. I wouldn't be able to vote, and don't really have an interest in naturalising.

[jjbinx007]

Cunt is one of the reasons I still lurk here occasionally.

So, is the UK worth living in? I'm an Australian who also happens to have (Eastern) European citizenship. I was offered a job in Surrey, and I'm strongly considering taking it. A couple of things hold me back. The money would be a lot worse than what I'm earning in Australia (somewhat offset by things being a little cheaper). The economy looks shit, with little sign of improving. I wouldn't be able to vote, and don't really have an interest in naturalising.

So the money's worse, the weather's worse and you're not interested in naturalising. Why do you want to move?

[rayshul]

Cunt is one of the reasons I still lurk here occasionally.

So, is the UK worth living in? I'm an Australian who also happens to have (Eastern) European citizenship. I was offered a job in Surrey, and I'm strongly considering taking it. A couple of things hold me back. The money would be a lot worse than what I'm earning in Australia (somewhat offset by things being a little cheaper). The economy looks shit, with little sign of improving. I wouldn't be able to vote, and don't really have an interest in naturalising.

Hah! My vote would be no at present. Shit is totally more expensive in the UK compared to Australia, the economy is still shit, and while I don't like living in Australia, I think it's a better option during the current recession. Also, better housing. On the other hand, England is fucking gorgeous and has pub grub and that goes a long way for me.

(Disclaimer: I'm English-born and generally switch between the Antipodes and the UK depending on my mood.)

[Tigzy]

Ladies and gents (ha!), the myth of patriarchy has been busted once and for all. Miriam at FtB has all the facts,

http://freethoughtblogs.com/brutereason ... mment-7400

Evidence for patriarchy is (among other things): not enough women in executive positions, not enough women in artistic positions, and ... (it's a bit confusing, because her syntax sort of implies it's the other way around) not enough women hurting or killing men.

If patriarchy did not exist, women would be just as likely to be hurt or killed by a man as men are to be hurt or killed by a woman. They are not.

As I said, the syntax is hilariously off, but I get what she meant. It's fucked up.

Imagine if a woman would look at rape statistics and conclude the patriarchy is real because there aren't enough women who rape men. Bonkers.

Patriarchy is real, cos men are the first in line to be conscripted when there's a war on, and war is like videogames, and men love playing videogames. Privileged fuckers, these men.

Patriarchy is real, because if a building is on fire, women and children generally get rescued first. That gives men more time to play around with the fire, cos they love fire. Have you seen the way men act when there's a bonfire or barbecue going on?

Patriarchy is real, cos men are usually expected to to do shitty, backbreaking jobs. This gives them a chance to act like the Hulk. Grrr.

[rayshul]

Also, the Australian dollar is on fucking fire.

[cunt]

Cunt is one of the reasons I still lurk here occasionally.

So, is the UK worth living in? I'm an Australian who also happens to have (Eastern) European citizenship. I was offered a job in Surrey, and I'm strongly considering taking it. A couple of things hold me back. The money would be a lot worse than what I'm earning in Australia (somewhat offset by things being a little cheaper). The economy looks shit, with little sign of improving. I wouldn't be able to vote, and don't really have an interest in naturalising.

Cheers!

It has it's good points as well as the bad. I don't want to say the place is totally shit, but overall i'd say that it's not worth moving to if your already living in modern first world country and it really doesn't matter how much research you've done on this.. you'll be fucking shocked at how much it costs to live in surrey.

[Apples]

Ever reliable, the Turd-bot handles a commenter pointing out that characterizing libertarianism as, "I've got mine, fuck you" is an unhelpful strawman:

http://i.imgur.com/nk7QocA.jpg

[Guest]

Bhurzum's over-emotional reaction was quite unfortunate. Compare it to Steersman's(1) who took the Muslim pummeling quite well(2). At least they're both glorious defenders of democracy and western civilization(3) in general, one directly on the ground(4), the other via the ivory tower(5).

(1)http://www.thefreedictionary.com/steersman
(2)http://www.thefreedictionary.com/very+well
(3)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_culture
(4)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War
(5)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masturbate-a-thon

[Git]

Woah, what the fuck is with this sudden calling Bhurzum a nazi? Motherfuck, that's fucking FtB level debate. Good fucking grief.

Someone says something they don't agree with and without questioning it's all fucking NAZIIIIIII fucking time.

I completely understand people voting for the BNP. I don't think most are doing it for necessarily racist reasons but because of other social reasons as Bhurzum has described. Note that the BNP gets their best numbers during the rise of *political* Islam in the UK. If you're fucked off with how the right and the left address these issues and they are important to you, then yes I think it's a fucking smart move to throw in a protest vote with the BNP. I also suspect generational poverty amongst the English poor which people don't feel are being addressed, and low-quality of life for poor retirees is another contributing factor - if you feel your country is prioritising the needs of migrants over yours, I would be shitted off as well.

Support immediately dwindled after the first surge for the BNP - they lost their seats, etc. That says protest voters to me.

I don't believe anyone has actually called him a neo-nazi. I certainly didn't. I fully admit to calling him a wanker though. What I did make clear was that the BNP were at heart, and others have since similarly commented, a fascist party, with neo-nazi tendencies and a thoroughly racist core.

He has subsequently clarified that he supports the BNP for two reasons, which to my mind anyway is like supporting II Duce because he had a positive effect on Italian architecture. But there you go. I'm not him, and he's not me.

Let's assume charity and that Bhurzum isn't a racist. He could support UKIP instead, who aren't a racist party (yes, they have a racist fringe, but no more than any other mainstream party) and who are anti-large-scale-immigration (which is a perfectly reasonable political position in itself tbh). He really needs to get beyond the glib suits and snake-oil of Griffin and see the far right for what they are. They trade on the naivete of chunks of the electorate and said electorate's entirely justified anger at mainstream politicians.

And the same goes for anyone flirting with the far-left too (for example, the SWP or Respect). You may agree with some of their platform which at first glance comes across as reasonable, but at their core is a pretty rotten totalitarian ideology.

[Git]

All reasonable like.

As Crommie and PZ would say, everyone is a neo-Nazi - the key is to admit it and shut up and listen when the Romani are talking.

I must admit, I wish I'd kept my pie-hole shut on this topic.

Open and honest to a fault...

I'm glad you did. It exposes I think the knee-jerk reactions people have and the quickness they'd condemn. As acathode pointed out, it's much like the FtB stifling debate by shouting MISOGYNIST. We should talk about things and ask questions first before running right in with accusations. I think most opinions have some rational background or a context that makes sense.

Well, if you come up to me and say you think the world of Valerie Solanas because of her wonderful policies on tertiary education (for example), then I think a certain degree of knee-jerking is allowed. I agree with the diagnosis of acathode on the way the left has shut down immigration debate by shouting rayyyyyiiissstttt at anyone, and whilst I have views on Islam and Christianity and Judaism-the-religion that make Dawkins looke like a crawling accommodationist, I'm not going to vote for a political party like the BNP whose modus-operandi betrays a racist core, no matter how much I agree with their policies on tertiary education.

[stration]

PZ Myers going after Joe rogan, you decide who is right

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... xperience/

Rogan says he has being flooded with pissed off feminist

[Reap]

Hey if anybody has a blog or RSS feed of any type they would like to have added to my godlessradio site let me know and I'll add your RSS to the ones I have going now. As long as it doesn't have anything to do with supporting religion, gods, or fraudulent BS it is eligible. Message me here or facebook or twitter ....whatever

[rayshul]

Bhurzum's long-time presence on a ridiculously and loudly multinational and multiethnic board seems suggestive that he's not terrifically racist or at least is not super good at it.

I don't think anyone would argue that Griffin isn't a ridiculous fat git and that the BNP have ridiculously racist policies. I do think the "snake oil" aspect of Griffin is sliiightly overestimating Griffin's ability to charm voters. There's not a lot you can say after going LOL I'm totally a racist cunt hahaha LOVE THE KKK GUYZ.

But. If you prioritise issues above parties I don't see why would wouldn't vote for a party like the BNP and live safe in the knowledge that the BNP are never going to get the votes to take over the nation, but *will* get the votes to at least get their say in parliament on those issues that matter to you. It's not as if the BNP are going to put forward a bill on loving Hitler that's going to get support of parliament (fuck I have no idea if they know much about policy development) - but what they might do is produce radical policies on Immigration which can be condemned by the major parties... but get the attention of the media and result in a less stupid piece of legislation.

I have generally voted for issues rather than parties. I don't in any way want those parties to get control of parliament, but what I do want is to have their voices heard on the key political issues that matter to me.

[AndrewV69]

I read a few bits and pieces in those other studies, and no doubt invalid discrimination takes place. But I have to wonder if “negative stereotypes about boys hinder their academic achievement” then why is it that “gender biases favour male students” and male job applicants? Maybe there is in fact simply an “in-group morality; out-group hostility” value system in play, but it seems that other more credible factors might be having some influence on the valuations in that SA study, even if the hypothetical individual women in that study were unfairly judged.

It does seem like there is something of a contradiction. I would be interested in seeing how the two could be reconciled, otherwise we seemingly will have to believe two contradictory things at the same time.

Care to expand a bit on the “in-group morality; out-group hostility”? How would this apply to boys in school?

The anthropologist John Hartung also has an interesting article on the topic: (Love Thy Neighbor: The evolution of in-group morality). But I was thinking in the case of the job-applicants that the males (supposedly, although I don’t recollect the details) doing the evaluations would have had a bias towards their own sex – maybe a “devil you know versus the one you don’t” factor. And that there could well be many other factors involved, some more credible than others.

And in the case of the boys in school, that might be the other side of the coin as I’ve read that most grade-school teachers are female so the bias is possibly the other way, accounting for those “negative stereotypes about boys”.

As that SA study mentioned at the beginning, all sorts of factors in play that are not easy, if at all possible, to differentiate. Which leads me to take its conclusions with a grain or two of salt. And somewhat apropos, I just noticed Benson has a new post on the “S-word!” – aka, stereotype. Seems many have some difficulty comprehending the fact that stereotypes can very frequently be true of some segment of a population, and less frequently the entire population. Bit of a sticky wicket in judging the entire population on the basis of one segment of it – racism or sexism – but maybe some justification for using the stereotype as a predictor of possible behavioural responses.

I have read the Hartung paper before but I think I will read it again because I can not remember the contents and he cites credible sources such as Pinker and Dawkins as being influential.

Something which I am now wondering about though in the Moss-Racusin study I cited, was to what degree if any was age a factor in the females? I remember one woman suing because she had the job at the end of the interview, then the Manager mentioned she had to have a medical, then she said that she was three months preggers and then she did not have the job.

Anyway, before I go off to contemplate, I will leave you with this:

Teachers' Expectations Can Influence How Students Perform

Rosenthal told the teachers that this very special test from Harvard had the very special ability to predict which kids were about to be very special — that is, which kids were about to experience a dramatic growth in their IQ.

After the kids took the test, he then chose from every class several children totally at random. There was nothing at all to distinguish these kids from the other kids, but he told their teachers that the test predicted the kids were on the verge of an intense intellectual bloom.

As he followed the children over the next two years, Rosenthal discovered that the teachers' expectations of these kids really did affect the students. "If teachers had been led to expect greater gains in IQ, then increasingly, those kids gained more IQ," he says.

I might trudge over to OB and see what she has to say, but I must confess at this point I do not exactly have any high expectations of her given previous experience.

[rayshul]

Well, if you come up to me and say you think the world of Valerie Solanas because of her wonderful policies on tertiary education (for example), then I think a certain degree of knee-jerking is allowed. I agree with the diagnosis of acathode on the way the left has shut down immigration debate by shouting rayyyyyiiissstttt at anyone, and whilst I have views on Islam and Christianity and Judaism-the-religion that make Dawkins looke like a crawling accommodationist, I'm not going to vote for a political party like the BNP whose modus-operandi betrays a racist core, no matter how much I agree with their policies on tertiary education.

I suppose we simply differ in views on that point - if Solanas had wonderful policies on tertiary education I could accept that. I notice that many people here are happy to accept that some on the FtB side get it right some of the time, even if 90% of the time they're nutty cunts.

I don't believe a single person or party can get it "right" but I think in a democracy we have a wonderful opportunity to bring together a bunch of people who sort of get some things right and then charge them with trying to get EVERYTHING right. Ideally the mix of politics should be representative of everyone and every viewpoint, and I think that includes minor one-note radical parties.

[AndrewV69]

Cunt is one of the reasons I still lurk here occasionally.

So, is the UK worth living in? I'm an Australian who also happens to have (Eastern) European citizenship. I was offered a job in Surrey, and I'm strongly considering taking it. A couple of things hold me back. The money would be a lot worse than what I'm earning in Australia (somewhat offset by things being a little cheaper). The economy looks shit, with little sign of improving. I wouldn't be able to vote, and don't really have an interest in naturalising.

Cheers!

It has it's good points as well as the bad. I don't want to say the place is totally shit, but overall i'd say that it's not worth moving to if your already living in modern first world country and it really doesn't matter how much research you've done on this.. you'll be fucking shocked at how much it costs to live in surrey.

You would be comatose as to how much it costs to live in Mayfair (I nearly was anyway, good thing it never cost me anything).