Now sponsored by [spoiler]my dick[/spoiler]

[BarnOwl]

And both would like "more skirts for men". Which leads me to wonder what they were referring to, since they didn't specifically say "kilts". Nor clothing from other cultures; FWIW, Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men%27s_skirts has this to say:

Outside of Western cultures, men's clothing commonly includes skirts and skirt-like garments; however, in North America and much of Europe, the wearing of a skirt is today usually seen as typical for females and not males. People have variously attempted to promote the wearing of skirts by men in Western culture and to do away with this arbitrary sex distinction, albeit with limited general success[1] and considerable cultural resistance.[2] ...

and later mentions Utilikilts and 3 companies that also sell (or sold?) kilts & "men's skirts".

In a search for "skirts" at A+ forum, I didn't see any thread or post that referred to skirts as being oppressive toward women, or too revealing, or part of "rape culture". Yet another example of the messaging not being quite coordinated between the different branches of the "3rd wave of atheism". If men wore skirts more often, do you s'pose Ophelia would see them as oppressive, restricting, and sexually dangerous for women? :think:

That exchange at the A+ forum, as well as some of the commentary on Greta's fashion posts, are revealing (pun intended) with regards to both the limited cultural exposure and the learned helplessness (or sheer laziness) of the participants. None of them mentions the sarong/lungi worn by an entire subcontinent and archipelago of men, many of whom continue to wear that style of clothing when they live/work in Western countries. Both men and women walk around here in sarongs, and it's not as if I live in some hip ethnic neighborhood or anything.

Of course sarongs are worn by women as well, and they have the added benefits of being perfect attire for warm climates and of being easy to sew - the latter gets to the helplessness point. Why don't the A+ers who are frustrated with limited clothing choices learn to sew, ffs? You don't even have to own a sewing machine ... you can lease sewing machine time by the hour AND take sewing classes at most craft and fabric stores. Fabric stores in particular are eager for customers, sewing classes are really inexpensive, and sarongs are easy to sew. Simple solution, not limited to the US by any means.

[Phil_Giordana_FCD]

To answer Windy's earlier question about electronic distribution of Fairyland's music: I seem to be earning 0.04 US$ per track sold. Buy the coaster, by all means!

[BarnOwl]

To answer Windy's earlier question about electronic distribution of Fairyland's music: I seem to be earning 0.04 US$ per track sold. Buy the coaster, by all means!

Well, crap, I would have thought you'd earn more. I bought one of your albums and plan to buy the others too, but where do I find the coaster? I didn't come across it in a quick Amazon search.

[AnonymousCowherd]

Even if the population is only one person, but that person's demand for resources rises continually, then resource consumption eventually overtakes the fixed amounts available if that person consumes long enough. And since we are playing fantasy football, why not?

I am not playing any sort of fantasy football here mate.
Your above suggestion that one person's consumption can physically rise to exceed the planetary energy input in less than their lifetime is so absurd as to render your "arguments" as no longer worth seriously engaging.

I see, you want to make the population of the planet equal one, but I'm being unrealistic. Just as well nothing I said relies on that scenario.

Fortunately, I don't have to stop "seriously engaging with your arguments" since (a) I never started to and (b) I've yet to see one.

[Phil_Giordana_FCD]

To answer Windy's earlier question about electronic distribution of Fairyland's music: I seem to be earning 0.04 US$ per track sold. Buy the coaster, by all means!

Well, crap, I would have thought you'd earn more. I bought one of your albums and plan to buy the others too, but where do I find the coaster? I didn't come across it in a quick Amazon search.

Here: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_ ... =fairyland

[BarnOwl]

To answer Windy's earlier question about electronic distribution of Fairyland's music: I seem to be earning 0.04 US$ per track sold. Buy the coaster, by all means!

Well, crap, I would have thought you'd earn more. I bought one of your albums and plan to buy the others too, but where do I find the coaster? I didn't come across it in a quick Amazon search.

Here: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_ ... =fairyland

Oh, buying the CDs as opposed to the MP3s. I like CDs for my car, no problem.

<---- Clueless.

[TheMan]

A question that's crossed my mind.

Does PZ Myers ever attract groupies?

(as in the kind of groupie attention a lead singer in a band would get)

According to Peezus, he does:

Now you might find this hard to believe (I know I do), but I’ve been in this position several times at atheist meetings. I’m a homely old guy, not exactly what anyone would consider romantic material, and I’ve received variants of the “come up to my room for coffee” line from several women and one man. I did not find it at all creepy — it was extremely flattering, as you might guess — because in every case these were offers from intelligent people in reasonable contexts, that is, Decent Human Beings.

Being a Decent Human Being is actually the best defense you can have. Don’t abandon it for short-term gain: you’re in a community, and you’re going to lose that if you think of yourself as a predator on the make.

Now at this point, hopefully, you are two people in a hotel room. What next? I can’t help you much at this point, because I’ve always turned those offers down, and all of my dating experience is from 35 years ago, and in my current long-term relationship, we dated for two months before we even kissed.

Somewhat ironically, if you follow the logic of the ant-harrassment policies touted by Myers since that time, the fact that he is, according to himself, not interested in sex with anyone other than his wife, turns all those offers of sex into incidences of un-solicited sexual harrassment!
And none of them perpetrated on women!

Interesting. It goes with the turf of getting up on stage.

What I'm slowly steering towards is that I'm inclined to think that there is an element of what I will call "lead singer syndrome". Where I would assert that men in particular would be aware, if not hopeful, of this type of sexual adulation that comes with stepping up to the stage. I'm not suggesting this is the great motivator but one would be lying if they say it never crossed their minds.

I'm certain there may have been times when PZ would have mentally played with the fantasy that it would be nice to be single and taken up some of the offers. Then/or, got all hot and randy thinking about it and shagged his wife if he still has a libido. ( He's not THAT old). I do wonder what motivated him to write that.

But it does demonstrate that for some people at least, it's not about physical sexiness and more about perception of power and prestige. We all know that of course and so do the speakers.

Damn, I shouldn't have started this at 1.27am. There's too many evolutionary psychology nuances at play here.

[Apples]

I know it's like totally misogynistic and gauche to point out such things, but, taking a glance over at Ophie-land, I can't help noticing that, as usual, when discussing the Delhi rape-attack, she refers to "the rape victim" and omits to mention the young woman's boyfriend, who was at the same time attacked, stripped naked, beaten unconscious, and thrown off the bus with her. He survived, so we might as well pretend he never existed.

"The BBC’s Andrew North tells us more about the Delhi rape victim."
http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterflies ... -about-it/
http://www.freezepage.com/1359296882UWTIIDTJTW

Also, on Mary Beard - "He bruised his knuckles when he punched her"
http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterflies ... #more-6377
http://www.freezepage.com/1359296933ZNWOTKGLYM

Holy shit! Mary Beard was physically assaulted? Wait - you mean "he" was the admin of the website that hosted vulgar comments about her and that has since closed up shop in the face of "citizen action?" Phew. False alarm.

Reminder to thick-skulled self: In Ophelia Benson's dessicated brain, men who are brutally attacked do not exist, and women who are mocked online have been physically beaten: "it's like hitting someone with a baseball bat." I'm finally beginning to understand this gnu-femminizm thing.

Since Ophie is so fond of quoting nursery rhymes to illustrate her points, let's all sing this classic together: "Sticks and stones may break my bones...."

[TheMan]

With the skirt issue I think these tight corporate type skirts are what being referred to in not being able to run in them.

http://www.forcast.com.au/user/images/3 ... 0620170944

[Apples]

That exchange at the A+ forum, as well as some of the commentary on Greta's fashion posts, are revealing (pun intended) with regards to both the limited cultural exposure and the learned helplessness (or sheer laziness) of the participants.

Speaking of exposure/learned helplessness, in case you were wondering, "Winter clothes, how do they work?" there is also this fascinating thread at A+.

"Outdoor kit this time off [sic] year"
http://atheismplus.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3784

[Metalogic42]

sometimes, the person who is furious is furious because they're calling down a marginalization that very few people here have the experience and knowledge to see. I am *not* terribly proficient with ableism at all. I can't hear those dogwhistles. racist dogwhistles? oh hell yes. I'm familiar. which is why I'm baring teeth at someone and everyone else is like "okay why is cee delivering the side eye, what just happened."

The fact of the matter is that we can never be perfect in our understanding of the experiences of those in oppressed or maligned groups. Though you are the Most Enlightened of White Males, you can never fully appreciate the feelings, injuries, and injustices known by members of those groups. You may have grokked all the data, you may have fought on the side of goodness and equality all your life, but you can’t know what it’s like.

It looks like this is becoming an increasingly common sentiment in the FTB/A+ community. And quite frankly, it's bullshit. It baffles me how people on their side can't see it for what it is - an attempt to guilt-trip opponents and control the conversation. Or maybe that's what they all want? Fortunately for us though, I think this right here is what makes so many people make the jump to the 'pit. They spout all this "yeah, you can't understand what it's like" stuff, then one day, they're the one who can't understand, even though they actually do. Then it becomes apparent what bullshit it actually is.

[UnbelieveSteve]

Why does pseudofeminism remind me of skepchick & friends?
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pseudofeminist

[decius]

It looks like this is becoming an increasingly common sentiment in the FTB/A+ community. And quite frankly, it's bullshit. It baffles me how people on their side can't see it for what it is - an attempt to guilt-trip opponents and control the conversation. Or maybe that's what they all want? Fortunately for us though, I think this right here is what makes so many people make the jump to the 'pit. They spout all this "yeah, you can't understand what it's like" stuff, then one day, they're the one who can't understand, even though they actually do. Then it becomes apparent what bullshit it actually is.

Ditto, mate. Give him some flak on twitter. Blackford has also told him off.

[Metalogic42]

It looks like this is becoming an increasingly common sentiment in the FTB/A+ community. And quite frankly, it's bullshit. It baffles me how people on their side can't see it for what it is - an attempt to guilt-trip opponents and control the conversation. Or maybe that's what they all want? Fortunately for us though, I think this right here is what makes so many people make the jump to the 'pit. They spout all this "yeah, you can't understand what it's like" stuff, then one day, they're the one who can't understand, even though they actually do. Then it becomes apparent what bullshit it actually is.

Ditto, mate. Give him some flak on twitter. Blackford has also told him off.

Already did. No response though.

[cunt]

Also, if you listen and still disagree in any way whatsoever. It's because you're a bigot, who's still not listening. If you then attempt to point out a flaw in their reasoning, you're just mansplaining. In the end it allows no possibility for you to be in the right and for the other person to be in the wrong.

No surprise that Peezus loves it.

[debaser71]

Also, if you listen and still disagree in any way whatsoever. It's because you're a bigot, who's still not listening. If you then attempt to point out a flaw in their reasoning, you're just mansplaining. In the end it allows no possibility for you to be in the right and for the other person to be in the wrong.

No surprise that Peezus loves it.

What about the menz?
The Patriarchy hurts men too!

no discussion needed!

[cunt]

Looks like Fidalgo has open comments on his blog. Anyone know if he censors? I'm slightly tempted to go over and explain things to him, as I would to a child.

[Metalogic42]

And now, let's take a little trip into bizarro world, wherein PZ acts like a slymepitter and a creationist acts like PZ:

[youtube]oIp9OGnnfrA[/youtube]

[Apples]

It looks like this is becoming an increasingly common sentiment in the FTB/A+ community. And quite frankly, it's bullshit. It baffles me how people on their side can't see it for what it is - an attempt to guilt-trip opponents and control the conversation. Or maybe that's what they all want? Fortunately for us though, I think this right here is what makes so many people make the jump to the 'pit. They spout all this "yeah, you can't understand what it's like" stuff, then one day, they're the one who can't understand, even though they actually do. Then it becomes apparent what bullshit it actually is.

And to the extent that it is true that a "white male" may never "fully" understand the feelings/struggles of, say, a female "person of color," the SJWs' adversarial and frankly sexist/racist approach to this problem makes reconciliation, empathy, and true mutual respect nearly impossible. Identity politics does not lead to understanding among real people in the real world.

Paradoxically, it seems probable that the 'Pit is actually more racially diverse than A+, it is certainly more ideologically diverse, and it is sure as hell a safer and friendlier place for its posters.

[youtube]2msbfN81Gm0[/youtube]

[cunt]

Actually, scratch that I just noticed this:

You may even be right!

So, his position is that as a white male it is your duty to act as societies punching bag. Fuck that.

[Metalogic42]

Actually, scratch that I just noticed this:

You may even be right!

So, his position is that as a white male it is your duty to act as societies punching bag. Fuck that.

Fuck that into the ground!

But seriously, yeah. If I'm wrong about something, fine. But I'm not going to grovel and scrape for forgiveness when I'm right. That hurts someone's feelings? Too fucking bad.

[Scented Nectar]

:) Nice work, Scented! At first I thought Amy had simply been on a polyamorous date with Marv Albert, Kobe Bryant, and Banksy, but now I understand.

Thanks. I think she must have been on a date with Marv Albert and an allergy doctor. Marv prepared the bitemark skinpop injection testpoints. :)

[Scented Nectar]

Yeah, so this almost certainly is the A+Theism Setar. IP tracks to a what looks like a Tor exit node in Honduras. Other evidence also supports.

Thank you: this has been a public service announcement.

No it isn't. Know how I can tell? This person has a sense of humour.

It's the cosmopolitans talking, tomorrow I'll be my staid uptight self fighting for a better world one keystroke at a time.

hic

I'm calling your bluff. Post the phrase "Hi, I am a pineapple" in a new post on the A+ forums and link to it here, then I'll believe you.

Yeah, I double call your bluff. Do what Metalogic42 said. :)

[AbsurdWalls]

I'm curious about twitter, having never really used it much - is it really so difficult to ignore someone you don't like on there? Do you get popups appearing whenever someone mentions you, or something like that?

Using it in the basic way, you should only see tweets from people you have chosen to follow or from other people when someone you're following to retweets them (copies a third-party's tweet into their timeline). You will also get tweets from anybody who @mentions you (which is done deliberately) unless you have previously blocked them.

A lot of the Twitter software however will let you do more. Tweetdeck lets you set up active "search columns", which will give you every tweet that uses a certain word. If you want to keep track of what people are saying about you then you could set up multiple search columns with your username (as the mention alerting only does something when the username is preceded by an @ mark) which will also (I believe) give you tweets from people you have blocked, and your real name, keywords (usually agreed on using the #hashtag system) etc.

[Scented Nectar]

To answer Windy's earlier question about electronic distribution of Fairyland's music: I seem to be earning 0.04 US$ per track sold. Buy the coaster, by all means!

What the fuck??? That's just no good. The performers should get more than that. You're the ones doing all the real work. I'm not even a musician but this pisses me off. Is it that low for most musicians?

[surreptitious57]

Also on Mary Beard - He bruised his knuckles when he punched her

http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterflies ... #more-6377
http://www.freezepage.com/1359296933ZNWOTKGLYM

Holy shit ! Mary Beard was physically assaulted ? Wait - you mean he was the admin of the website that hosted vulgar comments about her and that has since closed up shop in the face of citizen action ? Phew
Reminder to thick skulled self : In Ophelia Benson s dessicated brain men who are brutally attacked do not exist and women who are mocked online have been physically beaten : it is like hitting someone with a baseball bat I am finally beginning to understand this gnu feminism thing

The title is misleading to say the least but as regards the nature of abuse that Mary gets now, Ophelia is bang on the money. Her appearance is of zero relevance because she is a professor of history, not a supermodel or beauty queen so what she looks like is neither here nor there. I watched that programme and I was interested in what she had to say. not in what she was wearing. Remember, beauty fades so hang on to it while you still got it now. And make sure you have something to replace it when it does go

[Gumby]

To answer Windy's earlier question about electronic distribution of Fairyland's music: I seem to be earning 0.04 US$ per track sold. Buy the coaster, by all means!

What the fuck??? That's just no good. The performers should get more than that. You're the ones doing all the real work. I'm not even a musician but this pisses me off. Is it that low for most musicians?

Some reading for you:

http://www.theroot.com/views/how-much-d ... eally-make

[Al Stefanelli]

Skirts for men:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_5m4_TaT-qKk/T ... Borgir.jpg

Hey, I wear a skirt,too...

http://www.alstefanelli.com/runescapeal.jpg

[Pagancat]

Must admit the twitter thing was always lost on me. Might be age (i'm 37) but as a communication medium youtube seemed more effective.

[Metalogic42]

To answer Windy's earlier question about electronic distribution of Fairyland's music: I seem to be earning 0.04 US$ per track sold. Buy the coaster, by all means!

What the fuck??? That's just no good. The performers should get more than that. You're the ones doing all the real work. I'm not even a musician but this pisses me off. Is it that low for most musicians?

It is a bit low IMO, but not as low as it seems. At 4 cents a track, the album "Score to a New Beginning" earns him 40 cents a sale. This still might seem low, but remember that additional sales don't require additional work on his part. There's also lots of guest musicians on that album. The real problem, I would say, isn't that the musicians make too little (although it would be nice if they made a little more) - it's that the distributors and record companies make too much. "Score" is 13 bucks on Amazon. Why isn't it 5-10? Corporate greed.

Of course, maybe I'm just way off base here. I'm talking out of my ass.

[Zenspace]

A non-response that not only does not even attempt to answer a direct question , but distracts with a totally irrelevant fucking side question.


That's a keeper. I'm not sure what it means but I can't wait to use it on somebody

Amazing. I'm pretty certain that single sentence just described 90% or more of web based debate.

Yeah, Ill be using that somewhere eventually as well. Well done, MKG.

[Submariner]

Steersman. I have you on "ignore" for what I consider good reason.
…
How on earth do you manage to say so much, yet be so utterly vapid?

The more I read about the topic the more convinced I am that gender-equity feminism manifests a significant and decidedly problematic watershed in the movement.

What the flying fucking fuck does that even mean, for fux sake?

I take it then that you didn’t read the section of Pinker’s The Blank Slate I referenced? Nor are much familiar with the undercurrents that recently motivated Watson’s attempted hatchet-job of evolutionary psychology? On the assumption that your answers to one or both of those are “no”, here are, hopefully, a couple of salient quotes from Pinker that might provide some illumination:

Feminism is widely seen as being opposed to the sciences of human nature. Many of those scientists believe that the minds of the two sexes differ at birth, and feminists have pointed out that such beliefs have long been used to justify the unequal treatment of women.
….
The belief that feminism requires a blank slate and a noble savage has become a powerful impetus for spreading disinformation.
….
Equity feminism is a moral doctrine about equal treatment that makes no commitments regarding open empirical issues in psychology or biology. Gender feminism is an empirical doctrine committed to three claims about human nature. The first is that the differences between men and women have nothing to do with biology but are socially constructed in their entirety.
….
In embracing these doctrines, the genderists are handcuffing feminism to railroad tracks on which a train is bearing down. As we shall see, neuroscience, genetics, psychology, and ethnography are documenting sex differences that almost certainly originate in human biology.

[Time to call it a day; night all]

[youtube]sNhvC6fQsQg[/youtube]

[cunt]

If there are any black people reading this. Just remember that if you talk to PZ and he's just nodding his head, stroking his beard. He's actually just patronising you. He wouldn't want to upset your irrational feelings by telling you that he thinks you're wrong about something.

[Metalogic42]

If there are any black people reading this. Just remember that if you talk to PZ and he's just nodding his head, stroking his beard. He's actually just patronising you. He wouldn't want to upset your irrational feelings by telling you that he thinks you're wrong about something.

Do we even have any posters with zero "privilege"?

[Lsuoma]

If there are any black people reading this. Just remember that if you talk to PZ and he's just nodding his head, stroking his beard. He's actually just patronising you. He wouldn't want to upset your irrational feelings by telling you that he thinks you're wrong about something.

Do we even have any posters with zero "privilege"?

Euwoo thinks s/h/it has zero privilege (matches zero judgment).

[decius]

Must admit the twitter thing was always lost on me. Might be age (i'm 37) but as a communication medium youtube seemed more effective.

Bollocks, lots of people much older than you use it. Youtube is more effective only if you need to broadcast or watch movie clips.

[cunt]

If there are any black people reading this. Just remember that if you talk to PZ and he's just nodding his head, stroking his beard. He's actually just patronising you. He wouldn't want to upset your irrational feelings by telling you that he thinks you're wrong about something.

Do we even have any posters with zero "privilege"?

Depends what you mean, there's black people, brown people and women. Even a frenchman.

[Pitchguest]

If there are any black people reading this. Just remember that if you talk to PZ and he's just nodding his head, stroking his beard. He's actually just patronising you. He wouldn't want to upset your irrational feelings by telling you that he thinks you're wrong about something.

Do we even have any posters with zero "privilege"?

Yes, that would be a poor, handicapped, neurodiverse, trans-fluid, survivor of sexual assault/rape, person "of colour" with Aspergers. Do we have any of those?

No?

Scratch that from the list. Next up is radical feminists. ...Oh wait. Sorry. That's from the section that should have zero privilege.

Next up is cephalopods.

[Metalogic42]

Ah shit, I misspoke. I meant: do we even have any posters with 100% privilege?

My point was, everyone should be listened to by Paul Fidalgo's own criteria, and no one should "shut up and listen", because everyone is "oppressed" in some way.

[ReneeHendricks]

Yeah. I'm not even going to attempt to catch up. So, I hope everyone is doing great and that FfTB/A+ are still giving the gift that keeps on giving :D

[Gumby]

Hey, I wear a skirt,too...

http://www.alstefanelli.com/runescapeal.jpg

I always pictured you as more of the Klingon type:

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd24 ... 7b61b2.jpg

[Pagancat]

I have so much privilege its like I won a quadrupole lottery jackpot on the same day a freak hormonal condition caused me to sprout honky balls the size of grapefruits. What drove me here was the phrase "check your privilege". As an atheist and a skeptic I approached A+ with an open mind. What shocked me was threads in which the word "female" was enough to cause offence.

[Lsuoma]

Ah shit, I misspoke. I meant: do we even have any posters with 100% privilege?

My point was, everyone should be listened to by Paul Fidalgo's own criteria, and no one should "shut up and listen", because everyone is "oppressed" in some way.

Yes to this. I'm oppressed by all the dumb cunts on my board.

[Tigzy]

I'm curious about twitter, having never really used it much - is it really so difficult to ignore someone you don't like on there? Do you get popups appearing whenever someone mentions you, or something like that?

Using it in the basic way, you should only see tweets from people you have chosen to follow or from other people when someone you're following to retweets them (copies a third-party's tweet into their timeline). You will also get tweets from anybody who @mentions you (which is done deliberately) unless you have previously blocked them.

A lot of the Twitter software however will let you do more. Tweetdeck lets you set up active "search columns", which will give you every tweet that uses a certain word. If you want to keep track of what people are saying about you then you could set up multiple search columns with your username (as the mention alerting only does something when the username is preceded by an @ mark) which will also (I believe) give you tweets from people you have blocked, and your real name, keywords (usually agreed on using the #hashtag system) etc.

So it's pretty much as I expected then - it's fairly easy to ignore people you don't like on Twitter, unless you are prepared to run an ego-search on the presumption that everyone talking about your wonderful self will only ever have nice things to say.

I'm tempted to go on Twitter myself, but only ever refer to baboons without the '@' prefix - be interesting to see what responses I get...

[Al Stefanelli]

Hey, I wear a skirt,too...

http://www.alstefanelli.com/runescapeal.jpg

I always pictured you as more of the Klingon type:

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd24 ... 7b61b2.jpg

"Our gods are dead. Ancient Klingon warriors killed them a millenium ago; they were more trouble than they were worth." --Worf, son of Mogh

[Gumby]

I'm tempted to go on Twitter myself, but only ever refer to baboons without the '@' prefix - be interesting to see what responses I get...

Yeah, do that. If you get suspended it would be proof these egomaniacal paranoid motherfuckers do nothing but search for their names on twitter.

[Metalogic42]

Ah shit, I misspoke. I meant: do we even have any posters with 100% privilege?

My point was, everyone should be listened to by Paul Fidalgo's own criteria, and no one should "shut up and listen", because everyone is "oppressed" in some way.

Yes to this. I'm oppressed by all the dumb cunts on my board.

says the cunt.

[Lsuoma]

I'm tempted to go on Twitter myself, but only ever refer to baboons without the '@' prefix - be interesting to see what responses I get...

Yeah, do that. If you get suspended it would be proof these egomaniacal paranoid motherfuckers do nothing but search for their names on twitter.

<steerzo>
Anyone have a list of baboollie monikers?
</steerzo>

[Apples]

The title is misleading to say the least but as regards the nature of abuse that Mary gets now, Ophelia is bang on the money. Her appearance is of zero relevance because she is a professor of history, not a supermodel or beauty queen so what she looks like is neither here nor there. I watched that programme and I was interested in what she had to say. not in what she was wearing. Remember, beauty fades so hang on to it while you still got it now. And make sure you have something to replace it when it does go.

Well, sure. In the same way, what Ophelia and PZ and Greg Laden look like is neither here nor there, and it doesn't matter that Rebecca Watson's hair always looks stupid. Incorporating peoples' appearance, age, and other personal foibles into your criticisms/mockery is certainly "immature" and silly, just as calling people "fuckwit" and "cupcake" is immature and silly. Or photoshopping a chimp's head onto a picture of Bush. Or drawing a Muhammed cartoon. Or exaggerating the features of a politician in a caricature. Of course, people basically always caricature their opponents and not their friends -- not, in the first place, because the targets are old or silly-looking, but because they are, for the purposes of whateverthefuck the current dispute happens to be, opponents.

It happens to be the kind of thing people do all the time in the wild west world of online debate and commentary - for what the young folks call "the lulz." (And what cartoonists, satirists, muckrakers, and pissy gadflies have been doing in countries with a free press for a couple hundred years.) If this is practiced in the total absence of substantive criticism or engagement with the targets' ideas or actions, then, sure, it is purely superficial and perhaps worthy of a good finger-wag. If it is done incompetently or is an example of pure meanness or spite, then it should be rejected or ignored. But in either case, how the fuck can it be equated to a physical attack with a fist or baseball bat? This kind of hyperbolic talk from Ophelia and friends trivializes real violence and redefines all criticism/insult/parody/mockery as potential "abuse," on a par with a felonious assault.

Sorry, but the snide morons pooh-poohing the value of freedom of speech as "freeze peach" can fuck right off. That shit is more chilling and infantile than any static emitted by online trolls.

[Apples]

Revision: people who actually have a sense of humor are almost as likely to mock/caricature their friends as their opponents.

Yes to this. I'm oppressed by all the dumb cunts on my board.

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd24 ... 7b61b2.jpg

[Gumby]

<steerzo>
Anyone have a list of baboollie monikers?
</steerzo>

I would just use PZ Myers, Greg Laden, Aratina, Ophelia Benson etc.

[Altair]

The problem I have with calling it Gender Feminism, is that while they reject entirely the notion of biological imperatives, they wholeheartedly embrace the notion of cultural imperatives. Truth be told, I'm not sure there's a whole lot of difference there. You can change the culture, after all, but the reality is that they don't really want to get rid of all those cultural imperatives either. Just the ones that make them unhappy. The ones that privilege them? They're fine and dandy. Don't want to touch them at all.

It's why I think a different term is needed, and I like the term Neofeminism instead. It's not even an ideology. It's just a temper tantrum.

(Bolding mine)

That's a good point. Have you read Mark Trueblood's excellent article about chivalry?
http://www.avoiceformen.com/misandry/ch ... ality-yes/

It's about a number of women who, despite wanting equality, and even self-identifying as feminists, still consider it a problem that men are no longer behaving chivalrously towards women.

It's very interesting to see them cling to their privileges when they realize that equality doesn't really mean "equality only when it benefits us"

After the women’s liberation movement of the 1960s, which insisted on the equal treatment of women in all domains of life, feminists dismissed chivalry as sexist. They still do. A new study, published in the feminist journal Psychology of Women Quarterly, questions the entire enterprise of male chivalry, which, in an Orwellian flourish, it calls “benevolent sexism.”

I find it far more Orwellian to demand that men and women are equals AND women deserve special treatment, at the same time. In my opinion, the referenced journal article is simply being honest that chivalry and equality really aren’t compatible.

[Gumby]

Sorry, but the snide morons pooh-poohing the value of freedom of speech as "freeze peach" can fuck right off. That shit is more chilling and infantile than any static emitted by online trolls.

Agree 100%. The whole "Freeze Peach" meme is a tribute to just how deluded and brainwashed these people are.

[Phil_Giordana_FCD]

To answer Windy's earlier question about electronic distribution of Fairyland's music: I seem to be earning 0.04 US$ per track sold. Buy the coaster, by all means!

What the fuck??? That's just no good. The performers should get more than that. You're the ones doing all the real work. I'm not even a musician but this pisses me off. Is it that low for most musicians?

Some reading for you:

http://www.theroot.com/views/how-much-d ... eally-make

I am the 2.1%!!! (yes, we did break the 5000 copies limit a couple years ago for the latest albums. First album sales are around 25000.)

The bastard on the left of this post, also called an avatar (because he flies often), is very fucking proud of it

[Altair]

Yeah. I'm not even going to attempt to catch up. So, I hope everyone is doing great and that FfTB/A+ are still giving the gift that keeps on giving :D

Hi, Renee, it's good to see you smiling (via smiley, at least). I hope things are going well after your guy's surgery. I'm sending you all my best wishes and lots of e-hugs.

[ReneeHendricks]

Yeah. I'm not even going to attempt to catch up. So, I hope everyone is doing great and that FfTB/A+ are still giving the gift that keeps on giving :D

Hi, Renee, it's good to see you smiling (via smiley, at least). I hope things are going well after your guy's surgery. I'm sending you all my best wishes and lots of e-hugs.

Thanks! My guy is out of ICU and in a regular hospital room. They had to give him insulin yesterday to counteract something else (not sure what that's about but will be finding out later today). He's bored out of his mind so that's a good sign. He'll probably be home tomorrow and we might even hear something about the testing of the mass prior to that (not completely certain).

Now all I have to do is massively clean the house and get everything set before he's home tomorrow. Getting this man to relax and *not* do stuff is just about impossible.

[Phil_Giordana_FCD]

To answer Windy's earlier question about electronic distribution of Fairyland's music: I seem to be earning 0.04 US$ per track sold. Buy the coaster, by all means!

What the fuck??? That's just no good. The performers should get more than that. You're the ones doing all the real work. I'm not even a musician but this pisses me off. Is it that low for most musicians?

It is a bit low IMO, but not as low as it seems. At 4 cents a track, the album "Score to a New Beginning" earns him 40 cents a sale. This still might seem low, but remember that additional sales don't require additional work on his part. There's also lots of guest musicians on that album. The real problem, I would say, isn't that the musicians make too little (although it would be nice if they made a little more) - it's that the distributors and record companies make too much. "Score" is 13 bucks on Amazon. Why isn't it 5-10? Corporate greed.

Of course, maybe I'm just way off base here. I'm talking out of my ass.

To be really fair, there are HUGE costs in confection, distribution and promotion that the label endorses from the get-go. We receive an advance (somewhere around 6 to 8000 euros) for the recordings, then the label recoups this amount from sales (at a bit over 1 euro /album sold). Once it is recouped, we start getting paid.

As for guests, they haven't been paid for their efforts because we work as some kind of "buddy-business". The goal for each musician is to be able to record their parts without spending a cent. That's what the advance is used for (travel, hotel, studio sessions...). And in exchange, I am available at all time and free of charge for live/studio work if they ever need me.

Anyway...

[Altair]

I figure she's meaning "Share those first few weeks of our lovely baby" with her rather than... thinking it is all about her. Although it is odd phrasing. What I'm confused about there is why can't people get paternity leave? Is this a location-based thing? A workmate of mine took 5 weeks paternity leave; my husband took 8 weeks. Although I don't believe either of them are feminists... maybe they only stop feminist men from looking after kids? :lol:

It is a location based thing. In Colombia, until 2002, a woman could take 12 weeks off after giving birth but men couldn't take any. She had the option to take only 11 and "give" her remaining week to her husband, so he could stay at home with her and the baby.
In 2002, a new law was passed that gave fathers 8 work-days as paternity leave.

Yeah. I read a lot of the "worse" MRA comments as men who've had failed relationships and their kids taken due to sexism in the court. I mean, that kind of anger isn't nice to read but it's certainly understandable. Most of the ones I've seen at AVfM have been quite laid back.

I agree with that sentiment. It's not OK to lash out and direct anger towards women who have nothing to do with their past problems, and i certainly must be disturbing to read, but it is understandable. Hopefully, it's a phase that can be grown out of, since constant anger is not healthy for the person or the movement.

I tried doing a gender reversal, and what I found, sadly based only on anecdotal evidence, is that women seem to react in the opposite way.
Most of the anger and hate seems to be coming from women whose worst experience has been being asked out while in an elevator or mocked on a blog.

There seems to be a number of women who have been actually assaulted and raped, but most of the time they seem to be on the other side, opposing the hate coming from these other women.

That got me thinking, since I would find any anger coming from these women, who have actually been hurt by some men before, understandable while not nice to read.

The human mind is a very complex thing :think:

[ERV]

Getting this man to relax and *not* do stuff is just about impossible.

Now-- Hear me out-- this might be an instance where it is ethical to infect someone with the ReGreta virus. If lounging about all day, doing nothing beyond 'farting' would cause him mental and physical distress, infecting him might, in fact, be the moral thing to do.

[Altair]

I messed up the quotes on my last post

The quote

Yeah. I read a lot of the "worse" MRA comments as men who've had failed relationships and their kids taken due to sexism in the court. I mean, that kind of anger isn't nice to read but it's certainly understandable. Most of the ones I've seen at AVfM have been quite laid back.

was said by Rayshul, not by me. Sorry about that.