Now sponsored by [spoiler]my dick[/spoiler]

[another lurker]

Our latest episode of the Full Frontal Zealotry podcast has another Atheism+ Watch segment. My co-host was so exasperated by the whole thing, it was hilarious just watching his face while I read out the thread. About halfway through he just started ranting about how much like a religion they were.
If anyone's interested: http://everdense.com/ffz/archives/158

Thank you! I have listened to all of your podcasts - I love the show! Keep up the good work - FFZ is informative and entertaining!

[Submariner]

For those not following the A+ thread over on the JREF forum, a rather amusing situation has arisen. An APlusser going by the nom de net of "qwints" has braved the unsafe spaces thereon, and tried to pull the "I've noticed you're using problematic language...why is that?" maneuver (twice in one page actually). This, it turned out, was a mistake, resulting as it did in a sort of reverse A+ dogpile where everyone else calmly and thoroughly dissected exactly how many kinds of transparent bullshit that was. Three days later and qwints is still squirming on the hook, reduced to claiming "Oh, I was, uh, just pointing out that word choice, like, matters and stuff. I totally wasn't trying to imply anything. Why would you think that?" (not quite a Nathan Thurm-caliber performance, but pretty close).

Of course, over at APlustopia, the thread would have ground to a screeching (in more than one sense) halt, and the whole lot of 'em would have been banned, except for qwints, who would have gotten an ally cookie and a nice pat on the head or whatever.

I didn't even know this forum existed. It's like the kinder gentler pit.

[jimthepleb]

Let's try again - Skeptic Ink Network seems to be back online :)

http://skepticink.com/justinvacula/2013 ... lar-woman/

A response to Secular Woman’s article titled “Opportunity and Access in the Freethought Movement” and some assorted reflections on the current state of the online secular community

Justin,

Fire your proofreader.

Friendly advice, from periscope depth.

Well, I hate to pile on, but submariner has a point here. Most of it is fine, but you do have a tendency to publish without fully editing. I read a lot of blogs and comments, I know this isn't the first time it's been mentioned. To me it looks mostly like you're editing as you go, while still forming the ideas and outline, and not double (and triple) checking to make sure you've finished every sentence correctly once you've made your point. If you know anybody who is a more polished writer (or just a good reader) who wouldn't mind, get them to read your stuff before publishing, just for grammar, sentence structure, spelling, etc. If you can't find anyone, try reading each piece slowly and out loud a few times before committing, and spend the time necessary to edit your stuff.

I agree with everything you wrote, as far as the ideas go. The issue is clarity, not content. As I'm sure you're aware by now, even people who agree with you will notice mistakes, and this contributes to the overall impression of your work. Those who disagree with you will find reason to dismiss your arguments, and those who consider you an enemy will have ammo for mocking you. There are a lot of intelligent (or at least educated) people in the atheist/skeptic/secular blogosphere, and a lot of them are pretty ruthless pedants who will feel entitled to dismiss arguments over bad grammar or clumsy phrasing. Don't count on a charitable reader.

Note on the content....I loved it. If you get any notice from this, there will certainly be a lot of negative reactions. I've found that most "internet feminists" are angry young women and men, who often know jack shit about their own chosen labels but have plenty of passion and free time. But there are also well-educated people with a lot invested in it as well. If you're going to fight the current influence of feminism on the secular/skeptic community, you will probably need to read more of the basic works and get familiar with the theories and issues. Who knows, when stripped of internet drama, you may even agree with some of it, I'm just pointing out that to take the high ground, you should know what you are criticizing.
I think that almost all of feminist thought is made up of emotional pleading, manipulated stats, anti-scientific claims to knowledge, and purposefully untestable theories, but it took me a decade of reading and talking to figure that out. Your grasp of the stupid games of "internet feminism" seems good. Feminists and social theorists tend to avoid open debate, but still....a smart person who has been studying for years could probably make you (or most of us, really) look clueless, even if it's all bullshit.

Best of luck, you evil rape-enabler. Being a poor guy with limited opportunities in a mostly liberal and non-combative social scene, I'm still trying to work up the balls to be more public with my opinions on the matter. Thanks for being willing to be honest in public!

despite my often lazy posting, i do have some experience of proofreading copy. If any of the pit bloggers would want their stuff proofread pm me here and we could sort something out.

[nippletwister]

Circular referencing. A hallmark of the pseudosciences.

I prefer to call it a circle jerk.

Oh, and no-one deserves to be raped.
Some folk deserve to be tortured.
Many folk in history have deserved to be killed.

Nuance, folks.

You often seem to be a big blowhard to me, but I have to say...good fucking point. Although one further nuance- speaking purely with regards social or government policy, I prefer to try and stay as close to "none" as possible on all counts. I'm always surprised by how many "good christians" and "good liberals" are willing to go all fascist if it gets them what they want. Thinking that something brutal has to be done just because it's "deserved" gets very subjective and ugly very fast.

just sayin'.....yep, nuance.

[16bitheretic]

Fuck you assholes.

Some people clearly deserve to be killed. Hitler obviously. Stalin. The Taliban assholes responsible for Bamiyan. I'd kill those fuckers to stop Bamiyan. Bin Laden. Maybe Bil Keane (RIP). Sadly, there have been lots of people that clearly deserve to be killed. IMNSHO.

Torture. Okay, I'm not as sure anyone deserves to be tortured. Kill them. Maybe not torture them. Torture is worse than killing.

Rape? I've been taught there are so many shades of rape that I can't compare it any longer to killing or torture.

Sure, 1970s Edith Bunker style rape, no one deserves that. But then Amanda Marcotte who wrote referring to the Duke students after they were declared innocent,"Can't a few white boys sexually assault a black woman anymore without people getting all wound up about it?" I'd say Marcotte needs a shit ton more kisses in her life. Mary Koss, Nasrim Tasleema who say that men can't be raped? Fine, kiss them both. Get kissed chickadees. Fuck off AND GET KISSED.

Wow, I understand an argument for killing off genocidal political leaders, but saying anyone needs to be raped, regardless of what shade of rape it may be, for simply being stupid on the internet is going a bit extreme to say the least. Part of free speech is letting people expose themselves as idiots, which they are doing quite well without anyone critical of them calling for their basic human bodily rights to be removed.

[somedumbguy]

Okay, here's who deserves torture.

Marketing Pukes and Tobacco Execs that took money long after it was shown that tobacco caused cancer to push tobacco products on people and especially kids. For all the pain they caused, those fuckers deserve torture. I'd gladly turn the handles on their rack.

Many (though arguably not all) medical quacks deserve torture. Especially if they argue their form of quackery is to eliminate conventional treatments as opposed to just supplement conventional treatments. Good chance quacks if they can be shown to know they are frauds deserve torture. I'd close them up in an iron maiden for a few weeks.

[clownshoe]

Our latest episode of the Full Frontal Zealotry podcast has another Atheism+ Watch segment. My co-host was so exasperated by the whole thing, it was hilarious just watching his face while I read out the thread. About halfway through he just started ranting about how much like a religion they were.
If anyone's interested: http://everdense.com/ffz/archives/158

Thank you! I have listened to all of your podcasts - I love the show! Keep up the good work - FFZ is informative and entertaining!

Cheers, it's been fun so far.

[somedumbguy]

Fuck you assholes.

Some people clearly deserve to be killed. Hitler obviously. Stalin. The Taliban assholes responsible for Bamiyan. I'd kill those fuckers to stop Bamiyan. Bin Laden. Maybe Bil Keane (RIP). Sadly, there have been lots of people that clearly deserve to be killed. IMNSHO.

Torture. Okay, I'm not as sure anyone deserves to be tortured. Kill them. Maybe not torture them. Torture is worse than killing.

Rape? I've been taught there are so many shades of rape that I can't compare it any longer to killing or torture.

Sure, 1970s Edith Bunker style rape, no one deserves that. But then Amanda Marcotte who wrote referring to the Duke students after they were declared innocent,"Can't a few white boys sexually assault a black woman anymore without people getting all wound up about it?" I'd say Marcotte needs a shit ton more kisses in her life. Mary Koss, Nasrim Tasleema who say that men can't be raped? Fine, kiss them both. Get kissed chickadees. Fuck off AND GET KISSED.

Wow, I understand an argument for killing off genocidal political leaders, but saying anyone needs to be raped, regardless of what shade of rape it may be, for simply being stupid on the internet is going a bit extreme to say the least. Part of free speech is letting people expose themselves as idiots, which they are doing quite well without anyone critical of them calling for their basic human bodily rights to be removed.

Taslima is a doctor who in 2013 spouts off that men can't be raped. <SNIP>.
Koss is a researcher that consciously bends her research to eliminate men as objects of rape. Obtains funding and is quoted many times and creates policy. <SNIP>.

Marcotte is a cunt that after the Duke Students are declared innocent, not not guilty, but innocent, moves to post statements inciting racial and gender warfare. Moves to declare the innocent as guilty. Kiss her. Kiss her. Kiss her. Kiss her on her cheeks.

Yeah, you may not want me as judge and jury. I certainly don't want these cunts in the positions they've placed themselves.

That's my free speech talking.

[Cunning Punt]

No one deserves to be raped with a dead porcupine, tortured by being fucked into the ground, or killed by fire or broken neck.

::kicks sand:: Jehovah! Jehovah!

You're only making it worse for yourself!

[Lsuoma]

Bronco!

[youtube]4PHEcDZpGjM[/youtube]

Man, I can relate to Dexter in so may ways.
(not that I share his need to kill).

Al: is that you in that clip?

[jimthepleb]

Our latest episode of the Full Frontal Zealotry podcast has another Atheism+ Watch segment. My co-host was so exasperated by the whole thing, it was hilarious just watching his face while I read out the thread. About halfway through he just started ranting about how much like a religion they were.
If anyone's interested: http://everdense.com/ffz/archives/158

Aha, I've been waiting a while to see you clownshoe...
I was wondering if you do requests for your excellent fairytale series?
If so, could you do a version of 'brere rabbit' regarding Watson's ridiculous 'Pleez don't say sexist stuff to me' crap?

[TheMan]

The yanks are clearly having sex vicariously through the pit. You wouldn't catch the Aussies talking about it on a saturday night. we're to busy actually..............









watching a dvd.

Well, you're clearly having sex - you're in Sydney.

Clearly....

[Lsuoma]

Circular referencing. A hallmark of the pseudosciences.

I prefer to call it a circle jerk.

Oh, and no-one deserves to be raped.
Some folk deserve to be tortured.
Many folk in history have deserved to be killed.

Nuance, folks.

You often seem to be a big blowhard an Aussie to me[...]

FTFY.

[Steersman]

Some dirtbag ditchpig from Toiletbowl's blog (http://freethoughtblogs.com/lousycanuck ... ent-101166) is claiming that the statement that Rebecca Watson got, which said “you deserve to be raped, tortured and killed.” came from the Pit.

And Wowbagger is claiming that anyone here who speaks out against such hateful speech will be banned and treated to the same kind of stuff.

Of course, there are no links or citations.
Christ, these people just make it up as they go along, don't they.
Well, ya, we all knew that.

He is in a circular argument ... his link to his comment, links to another of his comments, which is actually a link to Rebecca Watson's Slate article ... in which she claims to have received many comments like that but again never cites a source.

A beautiful example of hearsay evidence at work ...

I've noticed that a lot of the links in FC(n) blogs point to other FC(n) blogs or previous blogs by the same FC(n) blogger. It means to find an exterior source for something you have to wade through dozens of "hits" to the FTB pages. Pretty clever, eh??

Circular referencing. A hallmark of the pseudosciences.

Really only circular referencing if any given starting point leads you back to the same point. Hardly seems to qualify in this case which looks more like a comedy of errors – which is being exceedingly charitable.

For starters, John Greg more or less derails the conversation off into the weeds with this claim – apart from his gratuitous insult, “Toiletbowl”, which can’t be helping:

Some dirtbag ditchpig from Toiletbowl's blog is claiming that the statement that Rebecca Watson got, which said “you deserve to be raped, tortured and killed.” came from the Pit.

Which is not at all the case since the “ditchpig” in question – real classy there, John – actually said the following:

3) The Slymepit crowd has said much worse things in a much more directly threatening way. I’m reminded of that one comment Rebecca got, which said “you deserve to be raped, tortured and killed.”

While one might reasonably question LikeX’s command of the English language, I certainly don’t see that as a direct statement, any direct assertion, any direct claim, that any “Slymepitter” actually said that to Watson. The most one can conclude is that that is a suggested inference – which is something quite a bit different from a claim – or that it is a non sequitur.

As for DeepInsideYourMind’s rather questionable claim that Watson “claims to have received many comments like that but again never cites a source”, I guess he can’t have read the Slate article very closely since the link in the following actually “cites a relevant source”:

Dawkins’ seal of approval only encouraged the haters. My YouTube page and many of my videos were flooded with rape “jokes,” threats, objectifying insults, and slurs.

And for those too pressed for time, too lazy, sloppy of thinking, dogmatic of mind, or just plain bigoted, to do the requisite reading and searching, here’s the relevant quote from Watson’s “Page of Hate”:

http://i50.tinypic.com/295uxxj.jpg

Now while I will concede that far too many on the “other” side insist on labelling any egregious comment as coming from the SlymePit, one can’t help but think that many actual comments of that nature from here could lead the weaker-of-mind – of which there seems to be a rather large number – to that conclusion. And while I didn’t see any credible threats in that “Page of Hate”, that page does note that such “have been reported to authorities” so that seems quite plausible given the vituperative and venomous nature of the comments there. However, in any case, those comments seem to provide some credible evidence of some egregious harassment if not outright sexism or misogyny which might reasonably be construed to be a problem in itself. The solution to which isn’t likely to be found if people – such as Lsuoma – insist on dismissing those complaints as coming just from a bunch of “stupid, whiny, witless Baron Munchausens”. Nor does it help much to read comments from the “other” side in the least charitable or most careless fashion.

[jimthepleb]

Br'er Rabbit and the briar patch**
Proofreading it works bitches!

[Notung]

What's not right? I was agreeing with you that there was more support for the idea last time it came up. Stop trying to gaslight me you chauvinist pig!!!1! I was trying to point out that there are two different aspects to this- people may agree to personally avoid those types of insults, but still think that "cleaning it up" as a collective is a non-starter.

Ah, in that case we're in agreement! My gaslighting never usually fails like this...

[Lsuoma]

No one deserves to be raped with a dead porcupine, tortured by being fucked into the ground, or killed by fire or broken neck.

::kicks sand:: Jehovah! Jehovah!

You're only making it worse for yourself!

Quite by coincidence I did have a lovely piece of halibut tonight.

[decius]

Somedumbguy, you are an idiot of supreme magnitude.

LSuoma, I recommend some clean up. Another major line has been crossed.

[16bitheretic]

That's my free speech talking.

Fair enough, I wasn't saying you shouldn't have a right to say it, I was just pointing out my opinion of such statements. I don't feel that calls for rape or torture have any use beyond just venting of anger or some way of trying to get attention through cheap shock value. I'd certainly never support any real life applications of said wishes, regardless of how much I dislike the person, especially after I've frequently called out and criticized the Catholic Church and the US prison system for their avoidance of responsibility in seemingly systemic problems of unprosecuted rape.

[decius]

That's my free speech talking.

Fair enough, I wasn't saying you shouldn't have a right to say it, I was just pointing out my opinion of such statements. I don't feel that calls for rape or torture have any use beyond just venting of anger or some way of trying to get attention through cheap shock value. I'd certainly never support any real life applications of said wishes, regardless of how much I dislike the person, especially after I've frequently called out and criticized the Catholic Church and the US prison system for their avoidance of responsibility in seemingly systemic problems of unprosecuted rape.

Actually, free speech doesn't cover incitement to commit crimes.

[masakari2012]

I read through that JREF forum every couple of weeks to see what's going on. They had a few good points, which I took away from there. But the Pit is far superior.

[somedumbguy]

That's my free speech talking.

Fair enough, I wasn't saying you shouldn't have a right to say it, I was just pointing out my opinion of such statements. I don't feel that calls for rape or torture have any use beyond just venting of anger or some way of trying to get attention through cheap shock value. I'd certainly never support any real life applications of said wishes, regardless of how much I dislike the person, especially after I've frequently called out and criticized the Catholic Church and the US prison system for their avoidance of responsibility in seemingly systemic problems of unprosecuted rape.

Good thing I don't influence the laws then like Dworkin, MacKinnon, Koss, and Marcotte have.

[masakari2012]

YAH! I got a hammer. I better smash some baboons quickly before it wears off. *insert Donkey Kong hammer theme*

[clownshoe]

Aha, I've been waiting a while to see you clownshoe...
I was wondering if you do requests for your excellent fairytale series?
If so, could you do a version of 'brere rabbit' regarding Watson's ridiculous 'Pleez don't say sexist stuff to me' crap?

That would definitely work, but I'm of the opinion that the less that particular individual is mentioned, the better, even if it is poking fun. "Their hate makes me stronger gives me a bigger media presence".

[masakari2012]

YAH! I got a hammer. I better smash some baboons quickly before it wears off. *insert Donkey Kong hammer theme*

[somedumbguy]

That's my free speech talking.

Fair enough, I wasn't saying you shouldn't have a right to say it, I was just pointing out my opinion of such statements. I don't feel that calls for rape or torture have any use beyond just venting of anger or some way of trying to get attention through cheap shock value. I'd certainly never support any real life applications of said wishes, regardless of how much I dislike the person, especially after I've frequently called out and criticized the Catholic Church and the US prison system for their avoidance of responsibility in seemingly systemic problems of unprosecuted rape.

Actually, free speech doesn't cover incitement to commit crimes.

I'm not going to be afraid of language on forums that says someone should get fucked merely because Stefunny or whomeever demands it. Especially when 99.9999% of it is a venting of anger.

Fuck Benson, fuck PZ, fuck them all. Their shaming tactics mean shit compared to the evil they espouse.

Plenty of classic humor is of the form: Fuck Off And DIE.

"May you grow like an onion, with your head in the ground!"

[DeepInsideYourMind]

Somedumbguy, you are an idiot of supreme magnitude.

LSuoma, I recommend some clean up. Another major line has been crossed.

First the whole Rape/Torture/Murder things is dumb anyway - rape and torture are equivalent and for almost all purposes equally horrific, disgusting, etc etc

Rape is a commonly used form of torture, rape is also about power and control, exactly the same as torture. There's some differences in the male/female equivalence, but ultimately rape as a form of torture against men and women is prevalent and equally disgusting.

Somedumbguy is merely falling into a moral equivalence problem. He (like many) thinks that a punishment should be morally equivalent to the "crime" committed - in his case rape denial is the crime, his view of the consequences of that are more than enough to justify that "the punishment should fit the crime"

Frequently people would suggest that men who rape little boys should have their balls cut off, or be buggered to death inside a jail cell - men, women, liberals, conservatives, even the most mild mannered and compassionate of us fall foul of wanting to see "justice" to be done. So, the issue really comes down to how far you think punishment should go, and what level of crime deserves which punishment

Interestingly, we tend (as a society) to think that men raping little boys should be punished with horrific punishment, but would see less justification for extreme punishment for a man raping a prostitute, and even less for a woman raping a man.

Our social conditioning is a hard thing to overlay on our instinct for justice and retribution.

[decius]

Fair enough. Have it your way.

The rest of you, good bye.

[Lsuoma]

Somedumbguy, you are an idiot of supreme magnitude.

LSuoma, I recommend some clean up. Another major line has been crossed.

I was thinking that, but no, I'm not going to. I think Somedumbguy is living up to his name wonderfully, and he may actually be a plant, but being a stupid cunt is not reason enough to ban. If people don't like what he's saying, reply to him to let him know, and then ignore him so he fucks off. That works with trolls and people who are here to get a reaction.

Just don't reply. I find his sentiments disgusting, but there is no censorship here apart from stuff that is legally questionable (not illegal, note).

Somedumbguy, you are a massive arsehole, and I would love it if you fucked off right now. Anyone with any sense of honesty can understand you're an enormous prick, but the people who want to tar the Pit have repeatedly shown themselves to be dishonest, and of bad faith. Your presence here is not appreciated. Please go away.

[somedumbguy]

Somedumbguy, you are an idiot of supreme magnitude.

LSuoma, I recommend some clean up. Another major line has been crossed.

You're still moaning that I pwned you that time?

[16bitheretic]

That's my free speech talking.

Fair enough, I wasn't saying you shouldn't have a right to say it, I was just pointing out my opinion of such statements. I don't feel that calls for rape or torture have any use beyond just venting of anger or some way of trying to get attention through cheap shock value. I'd certainly never support any real life applications of said wishes, regardless of how much I dislike the person, especially after I've frequently called out and criticized the Catholic Church and the US prison system for their avoidance of responsibility in seemingly systemic problems of unprosecuted rape.

Actually, free speech doesn't cover incitement to commit crimes.

Well, I may have not worded something very well when I said "calls for rape or torture", because (I'm not any sort of lawyer here) I don't believe anything somedumbguy posted is a qualified direct threat, as in that's what he is threatening to carry out or directly comission someone else to do. Looking at how it was worded, he seems to be clear of direct incitement in the same way the person who emailed Richard Dawkins and said "I hope you get hit b a church van" wouldn't be prosecuted for making a death threat.

[didymos]

I read through that JREF forum every couple of weeks to see what's going on. They had a few good points, which I took away from there. But the Pit is far superior.

It's not about which forum is teh bestest. I posted that because watching an APlusser deploy what is usually a winning SJW tactic and having it go completely awry is pretty funny.

[somedumbguy]

Somedumbguy, you are an idiot of supreme magnitude.

LSuoma, I recommend some clean up. Another major line has been crossed.

First the whole Rape/Torture/Murder things is dumb anyway - rape and torture are equivalent and for almost all purposes equally horrific, disgusting, etc etc

Rape is a commonly used form of torture, rape is also about power and control, exactly the same as torture. There's some differences in the male/female equivalence, but ultimately rape as a form of torture against men and women is prevalent and equally disgusting.

Somedumbguy is merely falling into a moral equivalence problem. He (like many) thinks that a punishment should be morally equivalent to the "crime" committed - in his case rape denial is the crime, his view of the consequences of that are more than enough to justify that "the punishment should fit the crime"

FWIW, I don't I am appalled when I visit reddit, FARK, etc., and I frequently hear in response to articles about women making false claims of rape that they should be raped.

But when I see people in positions of responsibility that know better taking advantage of society's known bugs (quacks, doctors saying men can't be raped, pundits inciting race and gender war), then yeah, the worse that society can toss at them the better.

But mainly, the rape/torture/death thing IS just speech. And banning it or forcing people to self-censor themselves from it is asinine and a mug's game.

It's on the same level as Zvan demanding that Vacula denounce the pit.

Accept that demand from outsiders and you've ceded moral ground.

The truth is that in my several months here, I've never seen one comment from anyone encouraging rape, torture, or death. And the equal truth is that all I've heard about from Atheism+ and Feminism is the reverse: restrictions on speech and behavior and the condoning and encouraging of making society manifestly unfair to many people based on the color of their skin or the speech they make.

[nippletwister]

That's my free speech talking.

Fair enough, I wasn't saying you shouldn't have a right to say it, I was just pointing out my opinion of such statements. I don't feel that calls for rape or torture have any use beyond just venting of anger or some way of trying to get attention through cheap shock value. I'd certainly never support any real life applications of said wishes, regardless of how much I dislike the person, especially after I've frequently called out and criticized the Catholic Church and the US prison system for their avoidance of responsibility in seemingly systemic problems of unprosecuted rape.

Good thing I don't influence the laws then like Dworkin, MacKinnon, Koss, and Marcotte have.

Somedumbguy:I understand having some rage, dude...but come on, that was shitty wankery. You sound like a cross between a radfem and some of my religious-right-death-penalty-loving relatives. Well, three murders isn't a radfem genocide of all males, but the shittiness is the same. Get help if you're that fucking angry. If we killed every stooge that put forth a harmful idea, we'd have no more new ideas. And you are now in the "harmful ideas" area.

[jimthepleb]

Aha, I've been waiting a while to see you clownshoe...
I was wondering if you do requests for your excellent fairytale series?
If so, could you do a version of 'brere rabbit' regarding Watson's ridiculous 'Pleez don't say sexist stuff to me' crap?

That would definitely work, but I'm of the opinion that the less that particular individual is mentioned, the better, even if it is poking fun. "Their hate makes me stronger gives me a bigger media presence".

Bah you make a very fair point. It would just add to her victim cred. She is a loathsome turd.
:hankey:

[DeepInsideYourMind]

<SNIP>

Now while I will concede that far too many on the “other” side insist on labelling any egregious comment as coming from the SlymePit, one can’t help but think that many actual comments of that nature from here could lead the weaker-of-mind – of which there seems to be a rather large number – to that conclusion. And while I didn’t see any credible threats in that “Page of Hate”, that page does note that such “have been reported to authorities” so that seems quite plausible given the vituperative and venomous nature of the comments there. However, in any case, those comments seem to provide some credible evidence of some egregious harassment if not outright sexism or misogyny which might reasonably be construed to be a problem in itself. The solution to which isn’t likely to be found if people – such as Lsuoma – insist on dismissing those complaints as coming just from a bunch of “stupid, whiny, witless Baron Munchausens”. Nor does it help much to read comments from the “other” side in the least charitable or most careless fashion.

Yep, read it the first time it was published ... terrible article in oh so many ways, not least of which is the complete lack of any facts backing it up.

The original comment:
a) didn't link to a source linking the Slymepit to the comment "quoted"
b) as a general statement it stood up to no scrutiny
c) Rebecca's page of hate, as you correctly identify, has no examples of real threats, just hate speech, trolling, abuse, etc
d) the intent of the original comment and the indirect links to nothing in particular are clearly intended as a smear, rather than a justifiable claim - hence vague links to "the internet as a whole"
e) similar quotes have been repeatedly cited, but again, nothing that would actually constitute evidence of the things claimed

If you are going to claim rape threats, report them to the police, don't publish them on your blog with jokes around them - that loses you all credibility.

If you are going to claim harassment, yep you have a much better case, except that again, these things were all (as far as I can tell) posted in public forums, met the standards of those public forums, or were dealt with by those organisations when they were reported.

[justinvacula]

Thanks for the advice on editing. I wanted to quickly release this piece, so this is why there are likely errors. I used to have people editing prior to releasing something, but they stopped doing it. I'll be more careful and give this recent piece another read.

[Notung]

Actually, free speech doesn't cover incitement to commit crimes.

Right. And FS refers to our right to not be arrested/forcibly prevented from voicing our opinions, etc by the state. It doesn't decree that whatever we say must be considered big and clever.

[jimthepleb]

SDG are you in your cups?

[somedumbguy]

As has been pointed out, some people deserve death. So the people don't deserve death is bullshit. (Bin Laden, Hitler, Stalin, Taliban at Bamiyan)

And so then if I am to be honest with myself and you, if I think people deserve death, then let's discuss torture and rape, the other legs in the people don't deserve torture, rape, and death.

I conceded that the majority of the world doesn't deserve torture, but hell, maybe some people do. Quacks that prey on the sick. Tobacco executives that suppressed medical research. Maybe they do deserve a bit of torture.

So then, what makes rape so special? If people can deserve death and torture, why don't they deserve rape?

As I said, don't make me your judge and jury.

Support democratic forms of law because we are a society of laws not men. And why is that? Because my sentiments as abhorrent as they are, are all too common.

So don't police my speech and don't put words in my mouth, other wise, I will tell you to get fucked and die.

And if Decius thinks that's incitement it only shows what a pinhead he is.

[comslave]

Somedumbguy, you are an idiot of supreme magnitude.

LSuoma, I recommend some clean up. Another major line has been crossed.

I was thinking that, but no, I'm not going to. I think Somedumbguy is living up to his name wonderfully, and he may actually be a plant, but being a stupid cunt is not reason enough to ban. If people don't like what he's saying, reply to him to let him know, and then ignore him so he fucks off. That works with trolls and people who are here to get a reaction.

Just don't reply. I find his sentiments disgusting, but there is no censorship here apart from stuff that is legally questionable (not illegal, note).

Somedumbguy, you are a massive arsehole, and I would love it if you fucked off right now. Anyone with any sense of honesty can understand you're an enormous prick, but the people who want to tar the Pit have repeatedly shown themselves to be dishonest, and of bad faith. Your presence here is not appreciated. Please go away.

You know better than to feed a troll. Let him flounder all he wants. Ignore him and he goes away.

[Lsuoma]

SDG are you in your cups?

That was what I was thinking. There's a lot of what seems like stream of consciousness stuff in the posts. He ought to go to Twatson for advice on drunk posting, if that's the case. Maybe discuss it over a cup of coffee?

[somedumbguy]

That's my free speech talking.

Fair enough, I wasn't saying you shouldn't have a right to say it, I was just pointing out my opinion of such statements. I don't feel that calls for rape or torture have any use beyond just venting of anger or some way of trying to get attention through cheap shock value. I'd certainly never support any real life applications of said wishes, regardless of how much I dislike the person, especially after I've frequently called out and criticized the Catholic Church and the US prison system for their avoidance of responsibility in seemingly systemic problems of unprosecuted rape.

Good thing I don't influence the laws then like Dworkin, MacKinnon, Koss, and Marcotte have.

Somedumbguy:I understand having some rage, dude...but come on, that was shitty wankery. You sound like a cross between a radfem and some of my religious-right-death-penalty-loving relatives. Well, three murders isn't a radfem genocide of all males, but the shittiness is the same. Get help if you're that fucking angry. If we killed every stooge that put forth a harmful idea, we'd have no more new ideas. And you are now in the "harmful ideas" area.

I have to deal with a court system where the norm, the default, the stock policy separates wonderful fathers from their children every day.

Am I angry to what radfems like Dworkin and Mackinnon have done to your courts? You bet. Am I angry as to how Marcotte practices her journalism (that is through terrible lies) you bet.

Am I saying every stooge that puts forth a harmful idea should be killed? Of course not.

Am I arguing that perhaps in some universe they would deserve it.... Hell that's just karma dude.

[nippletwister]

Thanks for the advice on editing. I wanted to quickly release this piece, so this is why there are likely errors. I used to have people editing prior to releasing something, but they stopped doing it. I'll be more careful and give this recent piece another read.

I hope nothing I said seemed discouraging.

[Richard Dworkins]

I see no functional difference between one violently rhetorical whine about injustice and another. Extremism makes a lot of noise but it is the problem, even if only impassioned rhetoric.

[Richard Dworkins]

I see no functional difference between one violently rhetorical whine about injustice and another. Extremism makes a lot of noise but it is the problem, even if only impassioned rhetoric.

[16bitheretic]

As has been pointed out, some people deserve death. So the people don't deserve death is bullshit. (Bin Laden, Hitler, Stalin, Taliban at Bamiyan)

Those were all wartime enemy combatants and leaders of hostile enemy armies. We generally don't in any civilized society condone most killing, but in times of war and military conflicts we make exemptions because of the nature of organized armed conflict. But even in times of war we tend to think that rape and torture of captured enemies is a human rights violation, because we are part of cultures that have moved beyond primitive barbarism.

So don't police my speech and don't put words in my mouth, other wise, I will tell you to get fucked and die.

Criticizing what you've posted here is not policing your speech, it's also an exercise of free speech in an open forum. You know, marketplace of ideas and all that.

[Lsuoma]

Marcotte is a cunt that after the Duke Students are declared innocent, not not guilty, but innocent, moves to post statements inciting racial and gender warfare. Moves to declare the innocent as guilty. Kiss her. Kiss her. Kiss her. Kiss her on her cheeks.

This is the limit. Any more posts of this sort which could be construed by a reasonable person as a threat (there is no attempt at humour that I can detect) and I will ban you permanently.

This is your last warning.

[jimthepleb]

The truth is that in my several months here, I've never seen one comment from anyone encouraging rape, torture, or death. And the equal truth is that all I've heard about from Atheism+ and Feminism is the reverse: restrictions on speech and behavior and the condoning and encouraging of making society manifestly unfair to many people based on the color of their skin or the speech they make.

You were right.
Until today.
Whilst what you said above was not incitement nor a threat, it most certainly was a general societal suggestion that encouraged rape as a form of punishment.
Way to go dickhead.
I was actually beginning to warm to many of the MRA's here. Andrew is often perceptive and a font of data and others, including you, have impressed me with NOT being the revolting misogynist arseholes others would lead one to believe.
Then you come out with this utter bollocks.
Fuck off and sober up you cunt.

[DeepInsideYourMind]

As has been pointed out, some people deserve death. So the people don't deserve death is bullshit. (Bin Laden, Hitler, Stalin, Taliban at Bamiyan)

Those were all wartime enemy combatants and leaders of hostile enemy armies. We generally don't in any civilized society condone most killing, but in times of war and military conflicts we make exemptions because of the nature of organized armed conflict. But even in times of war we tend to think that rape and torture of captured enemies is a human rights violation, because we are part of cultures that have moved beyond primitive barbarism.

So don't police my speech and don't put words in my mouth, other wise, I will tell you to get fucked and die.

Criticizing what you've posted here is not policing your speech, it's also an exercise of free speech in an open forum. You know, marketplace of ideas and all that.

America has the death penalty, so do many countries in the world ... who doesn't condone killing?

[nippletwister]

Hell, I'm in MY cups......uh, ok, cans.......and I think he's an asshole. Been reading a month or two, never caught the flavor until now. I never read his stuff closely maybe?

Anyway, let people quote-mine. Those who want to know will see the result.

Which, apparently, is a handful of grown adults on a Saturday night with nothing better to do than denounce an asshole for making not-really-threatening but violent and ugly comments.

Cheers!

And have fun cleaning that iron maiden. A few weeks????

[somedumbguy]

As has been pointed out, some people deserve death. So the people don't deserve death is bullshit. (Bin Laden, Hitler, Stalin, Taliban at Bamiyan)

Those were all wartime enemy combatants and leaders of hostile enemy armies. We generally don't in any civilized society condone most killing, but in times of war and military conflicts we make exemptions because of the nature of organized armed conflict. But even in times of war we tend to think that rape and torture of captured enemies is a human rights violation, because we are part of cultures that have moved beyond primitive barbarism.

So don't police my speech and don't put words in my mouth, other wise, I will tell you to get fucked and die.

Criticizing what you've posted here is not policing your speech, it's also an exercise of free speech in an open forum. You know, marketplace of ideas and all that.

To clarify, I'm actually not saying YOU or Lsuoma or anyone here don't police my speech. I am saying SlymePit don't let PZ et. al. police your/our speech. Don't let SJW police our speech or society's speech. You guys are free to nail me to the wall on anything stupid I have said and I trust that you will.

(Also, I am not sure Taliban at Bamiyan was acts of war. and the statement was an absolute, no one deserves war, and further it goes to various policies long debated over the years as to if assassinations of other government or military leaders is every appropriate).

[jimthepleb]

Thanks for the advice on editing. I wanted to quickly release this piece, so this is why there are likely errors. I used to have people editing prior to releasing something, but they stopped doing it. I'll be more careful and give this recent piece another read.

I hope nothing I said seemed discouraging.

Aye me too, my offer to proofread was made in good faith. Often just a fresh pair of eyes can help eliminate fossilised errors.

[jimthepleb]

As has been pointed out, some people deserve death. So the people don't deserve death is bullshit. (Bin Laden, Hitler, Stalin, Taliban at Bamiyan)

Those were all wartime enemy combatants and leaders of hostile enemy armies. We generally don't in any civilized society condone most killing, but in times of war and military conflicts we make exemptions because of the nature of organized armed conflict. But even in times of war we tend to think that rape and torture of captured enemies is a human rights violation, because we are part of cultures that have moved beyond primitive barbarism.

So don't police my speech and don't put words in my mouth, other wise, I will tell you to get fucked and die.

Criticizing what you've posted here is not policing your speech, it's also an exercise of free speech in an open forum. You know, marketplace of ideas and all that.

America has the death penalty, so do many countries in the world ... who doesn't condone killing?

:whistle:

[somedumbguy]

Marcotte is a cunt that after the Duke Students are declared innocent, not not guilty, but innocent, moves to post statements inciting racial and gender warfare. Moves to declare the innocent as guilty. Kiss her. Kiss her. Kiss her. Kiss her on her cheeks.

This is the limit. Any more posts of this sort which could be construed by a reasonable person as a threat (there is no attempt at humour that I can detect) and I will ban you permanently.

This is your last warning.

You're right Lsuoma, that statement should be condemned and you are right to do so.

[16bitheretic]

As has been pointed out, some people deserve death. So the people don't deserve death is bullshit. (Bin Laden, Hitler, Stalin, Taliban at Bamiyan)

Those were all wartime enemy combatants and leaders of hostile enemy armies. We generally don't in any civilized society condone most killing, but in times of war and military conflicts we make exemptions because of the nature of organized armed conflict. But even in times of war we tend to think that rape and torture of captured enemies is a human rights violation, because we are part of cultures that have moved beyond primitive barbarism.

So don't police my speech and don't put words in my mouth, other wise, I will tell you to get fucked and die.

Criticizing what you've posted here is not policing your speech, it's also an exercise of free speech in an open forum. You know, marketplace of ideas and all that.

America has the death penalty, so do many countries in the world ... who doesn't condone killing?

I said "generally" and "most". Also, not all of the US has the death penalty and the very existence of the death penalty has come under fire as it tends to be applied unfairly across various socioeconomic demographics and various cases of wrongly convicted or suspect convictions leading to death sentences have been revealed. I'm not sure about other countries, but changing long established things the death penalty in the US requires long periods of effort. Nothing in this country happens quickly, our social progress is measured over decades, and over time I expect the death penalty to continue to become less relevant.

[AndrewV69]

So don't police my speech and don't put words in my mouth, other wise, I will tell you to get fucked and die.

And if Decius thinks that's incitement it only shows what a pinhead he is.

Well you are probably familiar with the concept of not shouting fire in a crowded theatre so I will not bring it up other than this mention in passing.

However,

I would like to make a suggestion concerning a piece of advise I have also seen quite a few times. Basically, you should never post in anger. By all means write it up in some editor, not on the form you submit. Let it all hang out then wait till the anger passes, reread and then ask yourself if you really want to post this.

YMMV

[nippletwister]

The truth is that in my several months here, I've never seen one comment from anyone encouraging rape, torture, or death. And the equal truth is that all I've heard about from Atheism+ and Feminism is the reverse: restrictions on speech and behavior and the condoning and encouraging of making society manifestly unfair to many people based on the color of their skin or the speech they make.

You were right.
Until today.
Whilst what you said above was not incitement nor a threat, it most certainly was a general societal suggestion that encouraged rape as a form of punishment.
Way to go dickhead.
I was actually beginning to warm to many of the MRA's here. Andrew is often perceptive and a font of data and others, including you, have impressed me with NOT being the revolting misogynist arseholes others would lead one to believe.
Then you come out with this utter bollocks.
Fuck off and sober up you cunt.

For what it's worth, though I don't identify as such, I've read a good bit of MRA stuff and that kind of shit is very rare, even in the comments. The few who go there get banned on AVFM for that kind of shit.

"We all have bloody thoughts"

I heard that on Deadwood.

[Lsuoma]

To clarify, I'm actually not saying YOU or Lsuoma or anyone here don't police my speech. I am saying SlymePit don't let PZ et. al. police your/our speech. Don't let SJW police our speech or society's speech. You guys are free to nail me to the wall on anything stupid I have said and I trust that you will.

(Also, I am not sure Taliban at Bamiyan was acts of war. and the statement was an absolute, no one deserves war, and further it goes to various policies long debated over the years as to if assassinations of other government or military leaders is every appropriate).

This is fine. But don't say on this board that specific individuals deserve to be raped, killed, dumped in a ditch. Marcotte may be a vicious and unprincipled humourless bitch, but she has free speech rights as good as yours, and unless we're at war with her or she has been sentenced by due process, back off with the nasty prescriptions of illegal acts against her.

[Dan]

As has been pointed out, some people deserve death. So the people don't deserve death is bullshit. (Bin Laden, Hitler, Stalin, Taliban at Bamiyan)

Those were all wartime enemy combatants and leaders of hostile enemy armies. We generally don't in any civilized society condone most killing, but in times of war and military conflicts we make exemptions because of the nature of organized armed conflict. But even in times of war we tend to think that rape and torture of captured enemies is a human rights violation, because we are part of cultures that have moved beyond primitive barbarism.

So don't police my speech and don't put words in my mouth, other wise, I will tell you to get fucked and die.

Criticizing what you've posted here is not policing your speech, it's also an exercise of free speech in an open forum. You know, marketplace of ideas and all that.

America has the death penalty, so do many countries in the world ... who doesn't condone killing?

It seems 90% of the world doesn't condone killing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_cap ... by_country