Believe Survivors - Stollznow Memorial Thread

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Believe Survivors - Stollznow Memorial Thread

#1

Post by Keating » Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:18 pm

This thread has been setup to discuss all things Kavanaugh, so it doesn't pollute the main thread.

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Re: Believe Survivors - Stollznow Memorial Thread

#2

Post by free thoughtpolice » Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:32 pm

BK hates aussies :P

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Re: Believe Survivors - Stollznow Memorial Thread

#3

Post by free thoughtpolice » Tue Sep 25, 2018 6:15 pm

Faith Goldy was victimized by Toronto police:

First she was deplatformed by the Deep State, then led away and raped by a non-white policeman.

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Re: Believe Survivors - Stollznow Memorial Thread

#4

Post by free thoughtpolice » Tue Sep 25, 2018 6:26 pm

If you look at those freeze frames "faith" or Fred or Frank or whatever zir name is has awfully muscular, angular shoulders. Xe also seems to be enjoying getting handled by those POCs. I think Faith is a dude. Transvestigation points 95% she is a Manshee!

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Re: Believe Survivors - Stollznow Memorial Thread

#5

Post by Keating » Tue Sep 25, 2018 6:58 pm

While I appreciate your counter-trolling, your constant well poisoning is the main reason I don't bother reading most of your posts anymore.

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Re: Believe Survivors - Stollznow Memorial Thread

#6

Post by d4m10n » Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:01 pm

Does anyone actually think Kav probably did the things?

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Re: Believe Survivors - Stollznow Memorial Thread

#7

Post by free thoughtpolice » Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:07 pm

d4m10n wrote: Does anyone actually think Kav probably did the things?
Are you calling him a liar? If the answer is yes do you want to have him on the SC?

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Re: Believe Survivors - Stollznow Memorial Thread

#8

Post by Brive1987 » Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:01 am

d4m10n wrote: Does anyone actually think Kav probably did the things?

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Re: Believe Survivors - Stollznow Memorial Thread

#9

Post by Brive1987 » Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:03 am

d4m10n wrote: Does anyone actually think Kav probably did the things?
The plastic penis or the possible attempted murder?

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Re: Believe Survivors - Stollznow Memorial Thread

#10

Post by d4m10n » Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:16 am

Brive1987 wrote:
d4m10n wrote: Does anyone actually think Kav probably did the things?
The plastic penis or the possible attempted murder?
The alleged sexual assault while at Georgetown Prep.

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Re: Believe Survivors - Stollznow Memorial Thread

#11

Post by Guest_b8931fdb » Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:10 am

d4m10n wrote:
Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:01 pm
Does anyone actually think Kav probably did the things?
The charge is that he jumped this girl, strangled or suffocated her (she said she was in fear of accidental death), and tried to rip her clothes off.

Ignoring that to date there are zero corroborating witnesses, my question is if such a serious charge were made about anyone, what sort of anyones would you state hearing such a charge that you felt sure they didn't do it?

What would it take for you to reject this charge made against any random person?

Can you differentiate why this charge seems more reasonable to you than the UVA charge?

Can you differentiate why this charge seems more reasonable to you than any of the other charges discussed at the pit?

Right now the "street" says Kavanaugh does not have enough votes, mostly because of this charge. Why does this charge standout in your mind as more reasonable than any of the other charges?

My pov is there is no evidence to support this charge, and so if Kavanaugh seems otherwise fit, he should be confirmed. And I'd feel that for any charge against any person that had such little support, not because I am a misogynist, but because these sorts of vague charges are easily turned into weapons.

No one thinks tossing shit is an ethical good, but we all know that the shit we recognize as shit will still stick, not because it should, but because that's how our brains work. That's what poisoning the well does.

So to the question of does anyone think Kav probably did the thing, I'd say the answer, with this little evidence is mu, because it's a brain hack. We now all have this iggling little suspicion. Fuck that shit.

--------

If you want to know why I give a shit, it's because this is how family court works, this is how good parents are separated from their children, because bullshit charges are made up that poison the well, that are treated with respect even when there is zero evidence, because "better safe than sorry" and "best interests of the children" and "it's only a job application, he can go back to his other court".

When people give you bullshit claims with no evidence, I think it's your moral duty to reject them, and this one, handled as it was by being a last minute hail mary pass by Dianne Feinstein that grossly broke Senate rules and treated both Ford and Kavanaugh terribly should absolutely be rejected.

fwiw, "here's what should've happened"

https://www.weeklystandard.com/gregg-nu ... -kavanaugh
Much of the Senate's “advice and consent” function occurs quietly, behind closed doors, and away from the cameras. As a former chief nominations counsel to the Senate Judiciary Committee, I had the privilege to play a role in this process and to see the best and the worst of our judicial confirmation system. Among the most effective part of the process is the Senate’s review of a nominee’s character and fitness—the so-called “background investigation process.”

When Senator Dianne Feinstein received very serious allegations against Judge Kavanaugh, she could have—and should have—handled those concerns through the committee’s normal protocols. This process, which applies not just to Supreme Court nominees but to hundreds of judicial and Justice Department appointments, is specifically designed to protect the interests of both accusers and nominees. The process is both confidential and bipartisan. Its goal is to pursue the truth, not political advantage.

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Re: Believe Survivors - Stollznow Memorial Thread

#12

Post by John D » Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:15 am

I think it is impossible to know what happened, but so far it looks like all these accusations are coming from women who are claiming to have recovered and repressed memories. I believe that there is no such thing as repressed memories. These women may believe their own stories, but their beliefs are based on false memories. Dr. Ford admits that her memory came back to her during a therapy session with a Freudian head-shrinker. I think this is incredibly important to realize. This second accuser (penis-in-face-lady) had to discuss her story with her lawyer for six days before she could be sure it was BK. The story is comic.... absolutely comic.

Most Americans think repressed memories are real. So... Republican politicians are not using this as part of their story. The Reps are just saying this is intentional slander. The Dems simply yell that we should believe the victim. Americans are really having a great time getting all tribal and picking sides. What a circus.

I am so interested in this story that I am tempted to take the day off tomorrow to watch the hearing.

Haha.... my wife is pissed at me about this... maybe this is why we had a big fight about getting two dogs.

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Re: Believe Survivors - Stollznow Memorial Thread

#13

Post by d4m10n » Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:43 am

Guest_b8931fdb wrote: The charge is that he jumped this girl, strangled or suffocated her (she said she was in fear of accidental death), and tried to rip her clothes off.
Yes, that was the first one which we heard about. Details here.
Guest_b8931fdb wrote: Ignoring that to date there are zero corroborating witnesses…
There are only two possible corroborating witnesses (people allegedly in the room) either of whom would be admitting to crimes if they confirmed Blasey Ford’s version of events.
Guest_b8931fdb wrote: What would it take for you to reject this charge made against any random person?
At least some good reasons to believe that it didn’t happen. For example, showing that Kavanaugh was not living in the same area as Blasey at the time, or showing that she made up key elements of her story.

Bear in mind, though, that accept and reject are not the only two options here. We are perfectly free to remain agnostic as to which of these two people is misremembering or misrepresenting events of several decades ago.
Guest_b8931fdb wrote: Can you differentiate why this charge seems more reasonable to you than the UVA charge?
I did not say it was more reasonable than the UVA charge, but come to think of it, there are some (retrospectively) obvious gaping holes in the UVA story. Are you confident Blasey Ford will turn out to be an “expert fabulist storyteller” much like Jackie Coakley?
Guest_b8931fdb wrote: Can you differentiate why this charge seems more reasonable to you than any of the other charges discussed at the pit?
Which specific charges do you have in mind, unnamed guest?
Guest_b8931fdb wrote: So to the question of does anyone think Kav probably did the thing, I'd say the answer, with this little evidence is mu, because it's a brain hack.
If it is indeed a "brain hack" rather than an honest attempt to change minds, then Kavanaugh is a truth-teller and Blasey Ford a liar.

I’m guessing this is the consensus position here at the pit, but suppose we shall see.

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Re: Believe Survivors - Stollznow Memorial Thread

#14

Post by John D » Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:42 am

d4m10n wrote:
If it is indeed a "brain hack" rather than an honest attempt to change minds, then Kavanaugh is a truth-teller and Blasey Ford a liar.

I’m guessing this is the consensus position here at the pit, but suppose we shall see.
The truth is that we just cannot know for sure without much more evidence. It is likely, in my opinion, that Ford and BK are being truthful as far as they know. I will say however, that Ford should know better. She is a professor of psychology. She should know that the repressed memory idea is a fiction. In my opinion she is probably the victim of an implanted and/or false memory. But... many psychologists think repressed memories are real. (one more reason why I hate the profession of psychology) This is the most interesting part of the story in my opinion. Will the public get an education on this topic? Maybe.... maybe not. The politicians have no motivation to discuss the repressed memory side of this story so it may never come up.

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Re: Believe Survivors - Stollznow Memorial Thread

#15

Post by John D » Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:43 am


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Re: Believe Survivors - Stollznow Memorial Thread

#16

Post by d4m10n » Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:48 am

John D wrote: I will say however, that Ford should know better. She is a professor of psychology. She should know that the repressed memory idea is a fiction. In my opinion she is probably the victim of an implanted and/or false memory.
I would be surprised to learn that a reputable professor of psychology has been dabbling in the pseudoscience of recovered memory.

What is your primary source for this claim?

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Re: Believe Survivors - Stollznow Memorial Thread

#17

Post by John D » Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:36 am

d4m10n wrote:
John D wrote: I will say however, that Ford should know better. She is a professor of psychology. She should know that the repressed memory idea is a fiction. In my opinion she is probably the victim of an implanted and/or false memory.
I would be surprised to learn that a reputable professor of psychology has been dabbling in the pseudoscience of recovered memory.

What is your primary source for this claim?
Pendergrast discusses a survey of this topic.


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Re: Believe Survivors - Stollznow Memorial Thread

#18

Post by John D » Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:44 am

d4m10n wrote:
John D wrote: I will say however, that Ford should know better. She is a professor of psychology. She should know that the repressed memory idea is a fiction. In my opinion she is probably the victim of an implanted and/or false memory.
I would be surprised to learn that a reputable professor of psychology has been dabbling in the pseudoscience of recovered memory.

What is your primary source for this claim?
and... you are surprised a psych prof dabbles in pseudoscience?.... haha.... every psych prof dabbles in pseudoscience. Have you ever read Psychology Today? For sure it is a rag... but.... these people writing this shit are mostly academics. I am actually surprised when a psych prof says something factual.... haha.

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Re: Believe Survivors - Stollznow Memorial Thread

#19

Post by d4m10n » Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:51 am

I meant to ask how one can claim to know Blasey Ford underwent some form of repressed/recovered memory therapy, which we already agree is not a scientific approach to either therapy or fact-finding.

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Re: Believe Survivors - Stollznow Memorial Thread

#20

Post by free thoughtpolice » Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:13 am

d4m10n wrote: I meant to ask how one can claim to know Blasey Ford underwent some form of repressed/recovered memory therapy, which we already agree is not a scientific approach to either therapy or fact-finding.
I'm guessing he has Blasey-Ford mixed up with Ramirez who admits she was drunk and has gaps in her memory and took a week before she was confident enough to come forward. Searching your memory isn't the same as having a therapist implant a false memory either but it appears that doesn't make a difference to John.

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Re: Believe Survivors - Stollznow Memorial Thread

#21

Post by free thoughtpolice » Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:15 am

By the way, I don't think either of these women claimed to have forgotten the event and lately recovered it so that video on the myth of repressed memory doesn't apply.

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Re: Believe Survivors - Stollznow Memorial Thread

#22

Post by John D » Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:32 am

Ford already admitted that she had supressed this memory about BK until she discovered her memory at a therapy session in 2010

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Re: Believe Survivors - Stollznow Memorial Thread

#23

Post by John D » Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:33 am

And dont get all fucking “John is just biased” on me you bitch

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Re: Believe Survivors - Stollznow Memorial Thread

#24

Post by free thoughtpolice » Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:03 am

Hey John you bhenchod: Are you sure she said she had forgotten the incident before the therapy session or that this was the first time she spoke of the details? If you have a quote for that I will assume that you just didn't form a false memory while you were drunk. (I hear that happens) :P

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Re: Believe Survivors - Stollznow Memorial Thread

#25

Post by John D » Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:17 am

free thoughtpolice wrote: Hey John you bhenchod: Are you sure she said she had forgotten the incident before the therapy session or that this was the first time she spoke of the details? If you have a quote for that I will assume that you just didn't form a false memory while you were drunk. (I hear that happens) :P
haha... I have to say that I love you guys. I will need time to find this part of her story. I am on my phone right now. I really remember hearing this part of her story when I was sober

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Re: Believe Survivors - Stollznow Memorial Thread

#26

Post by free thoughtpolice » Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:52 am

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/201 ... -prep.html
Speaking of lost memories, it appears that there is this slut, Renate Schroeder, that did the whole football team including Brett Kavanaugh who claims
now he was a virgin that concentrated on his studies, sports, and going to church. She was one of K's friends that signed the thing talking about what a good boy he was and now has retracted her support. Good thing for K that they didn't have facebook and the internet back in those days.

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Re: Believe Survivors - Stollznow Memorial Thread

#27

Post by John D » Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:51 am

free thoughtpolice wrote: https://slate.com/news-and-politics/201 ... -prep.html
Speaking of lost memories, it appears that there is this slut, Renate Schroeder, that did the whole football team including Brett Kavanaugh who claims
now he was a virgin that concentrated on his studies, sports, and going to church. She was one of K's friends that signed the thing talking about what a good boy he was and now has retracted her support. Good thing for K that they didn't have facebook and the internet back in those days.
Haha... slut wants to write a book about being a slut... could be. She did come forward only after she started working with the lawyer of Stormy Daniels. You bet.... why not.

The story on Ford is that she told no one of her attempted rape until she was in a session with her therapist in 2010. She claims that she always had this memory, but conveniently decided to not tell anyone until her 2010 therapy session with her Freudian therapist. I can't prove it... but it sounds like a recovered memory to me. She did not tell anyone it was BK that tried to rape her till 2018.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/09/17/politics ... index.html

I hope BK doesn't get approved to the SCOTUS. It will be far more entertaining if this happens.

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Re: Believe Survivors - Stollznow Memorial Thread

#28

Post by free thoughtpolice » Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:05 am

:lol: So it was you having a false memory because it confirmed your bias (which is that she is lying that it is not a recovered memory).
Lucky for you I'm not the type to rub it in. :rimshot:

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Re: Believe Survivors - Stollznow Memorial Thread

#29

Post by Guest_b8931fdb » Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:59 am

Well it certainly wasn't a 4chan punking!

Avenatti, our next President, has a woman who went to school with these guys who came forward to list her various security clearances, swear to all the worst and typical behavior one would expect of high school alcohol fueled parties from Kavanaugh and Judge, and then come out and state that she and other girls have been the victim of one of rape trains explicitly set up by Kavanaugh and Judge!



more here

https://twitter.com/i/moments/1044968370670632960

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Re: Believe Survivors - Stollznow Memorial Thread

#30

Post by Guest_b8931fdb » Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:04 pm

damion, the brain hack I was referring to isn't
If it is indeed a "brain hack" rather than an honest attempt to change minds, then Kavanaugh is a truth-teller and Blasey Ford a liar.
that she is a liar, she could be telling the truth, it's irrelevant to what I was saying, the brain hack is that is how slurs work on us. It's how the big lie works, it's how darvo works.

It's how telling the jury to ignore that last piece of testimony doesn't work, if an attorney has worked hard to poison the well and get a witness to say something outrageous.

Also, she has claimed there were five people at the party, herself, K, J, another woman, and one other man. All have said the can't remember any such party.

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Re: Believe Survivors - Stollznow Memorial Thread

#31

Post by d4m10n » Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:51 pm

If someone tells the truth and changes someone else's mind as a result, that is still a "brain hack" in your view? :twatson:

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Re: Believe Survivors - Stollznow Memorial Thread

#32

Post by John D » Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:00 pm

free thoughtpolice wrote: :lol: So it was you having a false memory because it confirmed your bias (which is that she is lying that it is not a recovered memory).
Lucky for you I'm not the type to rub it in. :rimshot:
Hey.... I admit that all these women could be correct. I am very doubtful however. This happened a long time ago and people have super unreliable memories. In my opinion all of these claims should have been dismissed outright simply based on their age.... but... politicians, the media, and the American people disagree with me. Let the games begin and I will be glued to the testimony tomorrow.

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Re: Believe Survivors - Stollznow Memorial Thread

#33

Post by John D » Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:04 pm

Guest_b8931fdb wrote: damion, the brain hack I was referring to isn't
If it is indeed a "brain hack" rather than an honest attempt to change minds, then Kavanaugh is a truth-teller and Blasey Ford a liar.
that she is a liar, she could be telling the truth, it's irrelevant to what I was saying, the brain hack is that is how slurs work on us. It's how the big lie works, it's how darvo works.

It's how telling the jury to ignore that last piece of testimony doesn't work, if an attorney has worked hard to poison the well and get a witness to say something outrageous.

Also, she has claimed there were five people at the party, herself, K, J, another woman, and one other man. All have said the can't remember any such party.
I agree with your point about this being a brain hack. Once an allegation is made it is almost impossible to keep an open mind. Also, once an allegation is made people start to create false memories of all the times they interacted with BK. It can easily go from "Oh... that BK... he was sure a party guy. I remember getting groped at one of those parties".... and then... two days later a person will really think... "Oh that BK... he was the one that groped me at that party."

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Re: Believe Survivors - Stollznow Memorial Thread

#34

Post by Guest_b8931fdb » Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:23 pm


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Re: Believe Survivors - Stollznow Memorial Thread

#35

Post by Brive1987 » Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:01 pm

d4m10n wrote:
Brive1987 wrote:
d4m10n wrote: Does anyone actually think Kav probably did the things?
The plastic penis or the possible attempted murder?
The alleged sexual assault while at Georgetown Prep.
Is the question “is there any evidence he did it?” Or, “is there sufficient evidence for an informed opinion?”

If the answer is yes and no then is the final question “what do I want to believe?”

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Re: Believe Survivors - Stollznow Memorial Thread

#36

Post by Brive1987 » Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:12 pm

See what you’ve done?

Shame on you.


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Re: Believe Survivors - Stollznow Memorial Thread

#37

Post by Brive1987 » Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:56 pm




A lot of detail for no “who, when or where”. But nothing new.

I wouldn’t be surprised if something happened, but the level of apparent post-event rumination makes any objective statement slippery indeed.

And Stollznow. I’ll ping to the other thread.

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Re: Believe Survivors - Stollznow Memorial Thread

#38

Post by free thoughtpolice » Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:11 pm

Speaking of Stollznow, that is a case when there is certain evidence she was lying. Kind of different than what we have here, at least for now.

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Re: Believe Survivors - Stollznow Memorial Thread

#39

Post by Guest_b8931fdb » Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:34 pm

Here is a redacted Senate Interview: https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/imo/me ... acted).pdf

highlights cover rape trains, and FFFFFourth of July




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Re: Believe Survivors - Stollznow Memorial Thread

#40

Post by free thoughtpolice » Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:20 pm

There is a lot of talk know about the Twilight Zone. the White House has been using it and in the PDF that aynmonous guest has graciously providing has Brett using quite frequently.
Maybe it's coincidence, but I googled "twilight zone devil's triangle" and I come up with this:

So Trump is right and the MSM has sold their soul to the devil because of their stubborn atheist refusal to believe in zir.

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Re: Believe Survivors - Stollznow Memorial Thread

#41

Post by John D » Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:12 pm

A tip to myself.... when your wife is a real survivor of attempted rape you should not watch too much news about BK and make lots of comments. She is gonna get really upset and you are gonna fight about shit. And then you are gonna remember she almost got raped by three guys in a van and you are gonna feel really shitty. Fuck. I am such a fucking dumbass. She did tell me that she loves me tonight so she cuts my a shit-ton of slack.

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Re: Believe Survivors - Stollznow Memorial Thread

#42

Post by Brive1987 » Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:22 pm

free thoughtpolice wrote: Speaking of Stollznow, that is a case when there is certain evidence she was lying. Kind of different than what we have here, at least for now.
There wasn’t evidence for a long time, until then her comments appeared credible and detailed. They came from a skeptic paragon. Radford was toast.

Lucky for him there was documentation available that he could eventually release. And didn’t that cause a smoking 180 degree turn?

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Re: Believe Survivors - Stollznow Memorial Thread

#43

Post by Guest_b8931fdb » Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:28 pm

Well if anyone is interested in ad hom, I mean, character references to help you determine truthfulness of a claim, it's claimed Avenatti's witness/victim is a bunny boiler.


“Right after I broke up with her, she was threatening my family, threatening my wife and threatening to do harm to my baby at that time,” Vinneccy said in a telephone interview with POLITICO. “I know a lot about her.”

“She’s not credible at all,” he said. “Not at all.”

…Vinneccy, 63, is a registered Democrat, according to Miami-Dade County voting records.

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Re: Believe Survivors - Stollznow Memorial Thread

#44

Post by free thoughtpolice » Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:07 pm

Brive1987 wrote:
free thoughtpolice wrote: Speaking of Stollznow, that is a case when there is certain evidence she was lying. Kind of different than what we have here, at least for now.
There wasn’t evidence for a long time, until then her comments appeared credible and detailed. They came from a skeptic paragon. Radford was toast.

Lucky for him there was documentation available that he could eventually release. And didn’t that cause a smoking 180 degree turn?
The point being is that at this time, there is not at this time documents that entirely disprove the allegations like in the Stollznow case, but that is not the case in the BK GOP serial raper case.
And unfortunately, in Ben Radford's case there wasn't a smoking 180 turn with the FTB crowd. They continued shitting on him after the proof about the Stollznow emails.
At least an intelligent, reasonable observer will be fair to him , if they see the evidence.

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Re: Believe Survivors - Stollznow Memorial Thread

#45

Post by Guest_b8931fdb » Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:40 pm


Brive1987
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Re: Believe Survivors - Stollznow Memorial Thread

#46

Post by Brive1987 » Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:02 pm

free thoughtpolice wrote:
Brive1987 wrote:
free thoughtpolice wrote: Speaking of Stollznow, that is a case when there is certain evidence she was lying. Kind of different than what we have here, at least for now.
There wasn’t evidence for a long time, until then her comments appeared credible and detailed. They came from a skeptic paragon. Radford was toast.

Lucky for him there was documentation available that he could eventually release. And didn’t that cause a smoking 180 degree turn?
The point being is that at this time, there is not at this time documents that entirely disprove the allegations like in the Stollznow case, but that is not the case in the BK GOP serial raper case.
And unfortunately, in Ben Radford's case there wasn't a smoking 180 turn with the FTB crowd. They continued shitting on him after the proof about the Stollznow emails.
At least an intelligent, reasonable observer will be fair to him , if they see the evidence.
The very simple fact is that ‘bitches be lying’ - sad as that my be - even when all gut feelz says they are not.

So you kinda have to have more than simple say so. I don’t know, but I don’t think we have crossed that threshold here. Instead we seem to have what appears to be a moral and political panic.

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Re: Believe Survivors - Stollznow Memorial Thread

#47

Post by free thoughtpolice » Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:23 pm

Brive1987 wrote:
free thoughtpolice wrote:
Brive1987 wrote:
free thoughtpolice wrote: Speaking of Stollznow, that is a case when there is certain evidence she was lying. Kind of different than what we have here, at least for now.
There wasn’t evidence for a long time, until then her comments appeared credible and detailed. They came from a skeptic paragon. Radford was toast.

Lucky for him there was documentation available that he could eventually release. And didn’t that cause a smoking 180 degree turn?
The point being is that at this time, there is not at this time documents that entirely disprove the allegations like in the Stollznow case, but that is not the case in the BK GOP serial raper case.
And unfortunately, in Ben Radford's case there wasn't a smoking 180 turn with the FTB crowd. They continued shitting on him after the proof about the Stollznow emails.
At least an intelligent, reasonable observer will be fair to him , if they see the evidence.
The very simple fact is that ‘bitches be lying’ - sad as that my be - even when all gut feelz says they are not.

So you kinda have to have more than simple say so. I don’t know, but I don’t think we have crossed that threshold here. Instead we seem to have what appears to be a moral and political panic.
Social trends, fads, come and go. Popular opinion swings between under and over reaction. Under reporting and false reporting can happen at the same time or be more common at different rates at different times.
Kind of on the horny of a dilemma. :rimshot:

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Re: Believe Survivors - Stollznow Memorial Thread

#48

Post by d4m10n » Thu Sep 27, 2018 6:27 am

Brive1987 wrote: The very simple fact is that ‘bitches be lying’ - sad as that my be - even when all gut feelz says they are not.
Some accusers are lying, some are telling the truth. (Best practice is to avoid choosing whom to believe upfront.)

Many people are telling the truth as best they understand it, but must continually rely upon (faulty) human memory in the process.

It is possible, for example, that Brett and Mark honestly have no recollection of cornering a young woman in a bedroom—decades ago—because they were highly intoxicated and didn't think much of it at the time. It is also possible that Christine does not correctly recall events of that evening—more than one innocent has been put on death row by an earnest eyewitness.
Brive1987 wrote: So you kinda have to have more than simple say so.
What more could we possibly have in cases like this?

The events described by Dr. Blasey Ford were not recorded and there were only three people in the room at the time.

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Re: Believe Survivors - Stollznow Memorial Thread

#49

Post by John D » Thu Sep 27, 2018 6:57 am

d4m10n wrote:
Brive1987 wrote: The very simple fact is that ‘bitches be lying’ - sad as that my be - even when all gut feelz says they are not.
Some accusers are lying, some are telling the truth. (Best practice is to avoid choosing whom to believe upfront.)

Many people are telling the truth as best they understand it, but must continually rely upon (faulty) human memory in the process.

It is possible, for example, that Brett and Mark honestly have no recollection of cornering a young woman in a bedroom—decades ago—because they were highly intoxicated and didn't think much of it at the time. It is also possible that Christine does not correctly recall events of that evening—more than one innocent has been put on death row by an earnest eyewitness.
Brive1987 wrote: So you kinda have to have more than simple say so.
What more could we possibly have in cases like this?

The events described by Dr. Blasey Ford were not recorded and there were only three people in the room at the time.
Yep. I really can understand how horrible this could be for everyone involved. These individuals and the country would be spared a ton of pain if we could accept that 35 year old accusations should be routinely ignored.

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Re: Believe Survivors - Stollznow Memorial Thread

#50

Post by MarcusAu » Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:02 am

John D wrote: Yep. I really can understand how horrible this could be for everyone involved. These individuals and the country would be spared a ton of pain if we could accept that 35 year old accusations should be routinely ignored.
Or try the 'Logan's Run' solution.

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Re: Believe Survivors - Stollznow Memorial Thread

#51

Post by John D » Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:11 am

MarcusAu wrote:
John D wrote: Yep. I really can understand how horrible this could be for everyone involved. These individuals and the country would be spared a ton of pain if we could accept that 35 year old accusations should be routinely ignored.
Or try the 'Logan's Run' solution.
Also, the Logan's Run solution would solve the problem of my occasional thoughts of suicide.

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Re: Believe Survivors - Stollznow Memorial Thread

#52

Post by d4m10n » Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:22 am

Brive1987 wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:18 am
But I’ll bet number 61 would have had the goods on him.

This is beyond a circus.

It would not be remotely difficult to come up with 60 people who don't recall hanging out w/ someone they hung out with 3½ decades ago.

I find it striking that anyone would think this moves the needle.

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Re: Believe Survivors - Stollznow Memorial Thread

#53

Post by MarcusAu » Thu Sep 27, 2018 9:19 am

John D wrote: Also, the Logan's Run solution would solve the problem of my occasional thoughts of suicide
I'm sure the dog(s) would miss you.

Possibly some people here as well.

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Re: Believe Survivors - Stollznow Memorial Thread

#54

Post by John D » Thu Sep 27, 2018 11:23 am

MarcusAu wrote:
John D wrote: Also, the Logan's Run solution would solve the problem of my occasional thoughts of suicide
I'm sure the dog(s) would miss you.

Possibly some people here as well.
A very pretty brunet in a white frock (wearing no bra by the way) just popped by and said "Carrousel".

PS - my wife and I actually had a constructive discussion yesterday and we have decided to get one dog. If we think the new dog "needs" another dog in it's life we will consider a second dog. So, it is working out so far.

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Re: Believe Survivors - Stollznow Memorial Thread

#55

Post by John D » Thu Sep 27, 2018 11:27 am

I am watching BK's live testimony. Amazing. Ford came across as credible and so does BK. What and event. A must watch!

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Re: Believe Survivors - Stollznow Memorial Thread

#56

Post by Guest_b8931fdb » Thu Sep 27, 2018 11:48 am

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/po ... a8e4f4b431
Now a Kavanaugh FBI investigation is obligatory

By Megan McArdle
Columnist
September 27 at 10:43 AM
Is Brett M. Kavanaugh one of the most vicious sexual predators to ever disgrace the federal judiciary? Or a victim of one of the most fevered political witch hunts in American history? It’s looking like one of those things must be true. And the American people must be given the chance to discover which.

The space for living with uncertainty between those poles began to collapse on Wednesday, when lawyer Michael Avenatti, he of the Stormy Daniels saga, unveiled a sworn statement from his latest client: a 55-year-old woman named Julie Swetnick. According to The Post, Swetnick is a Web developer living in the Washington area who graduated from Gaithersburg High School in Maryland in 1980. She alleges that between 1981 and 1983, when Kavanaugh was a student at Georgetown Preparatory School in Bethesda, Md., she attended many house parties where Kavanaugh and other boys purposely incapacitated girls with alcohol so that they could be taken to a room and “gang raped” by a “train” of boys who lined up to take their turns.

Kavanaugh dismissed the allegations as “ridiculous and from the Twilight Zone.”

In her statement, Swetnick says that on one occasion she was a victim of the rapes. According to her, both Kavanaugh and Mark Judge — a high school friend of Kavanaugh’s who has been named by Christine Blasey Ford as having been present when Kavanaugh allegedly attempted to rape her — attended the party where Swetnick was allegedly attacked. She doesn’t specify whether they took part. Judge has denied Ford’s claims, and Mother Jones reports that Judge’s lawyer says he also denies Swetnick’s allegations.

According to a congressional staffer, the Senate Judiciary Committee “has the statement and they are reviewing it,” which means that Swetnick’s allegation is now theoretically subject to 18 U.S. Code § 1001 penalties of up to five years in jail for making any “materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or representation.” Ken White, a former federal prosecutor, says that in practice, “the nature of the allegations in the complaint, and their age, would make it extremely difficult to prove they were false, let alone knowingly false,” so this does not, despite what many have assumed, necessarily make her statement much more credible than those given to the media. Still, it has been given to the Judiciary Committee, and it cannot be ignored.

Fortunately, unlike the other allegations, this offers many potential lines of investigation. Swetnick states that she told people about these attacks at the time and is aware of others who can corroborate her story — a story that, in any case, should have created dozens of witnesses.

There are real questions that suggest it might not hold up, among them, “How did the media and the FBI, sifting through Kavanaugh’s past, miss this?” And Avenatti does not seem to have thoroughly vetted his client before going public. But of course, these things don’t prove that she wasn’t raped as a young woman, so while Swetnick’s sworn statement needs closer examination, it doesn’t change the ultimate conclusion: Kavanaugh cannot be confirmed to the Supreme Court with the allegations hanging over his head.

...




Chances are Kavanaugh is going to be nuked and in part because after several weeks of being drug through the mud with the worst allegations, he couldn't keep his cool under testimony.

On the one hand, I don't mind when this happens to any lawyer. For as much good they do in defending people and causes, lawyers and the games they play are cancer to society, and what has happened to Kavanaugh has happened to millions of fathers in family court. So if he's not disbarred altogether, maybe he can do some good as a defense lawyer.

On the other hand all the lawyers, the media, and any opponent of Kavanaugh for any reason (including some here at the pit) will walk away thinking these tactics worked, these tactics were okay.

No bad tactics, only bad targets.

Stock in #MeToo @womensmarch http://www.jezebel.com Amanda Marcotte is all on the rise, you should buy this stock today.

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Re: Believe Survivors - Stollznow Memorial Thread

#57

Post by Guest_b8931fdb » Thu Sep 27, 2018 11:54 am

John D wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 11:27 am
I am watching BK's live testimony. Amazing. Ford came across as credible and so does BK. What and event. A must watch!
The early reviews are in, and the narrative has already been written and reported by the Blue Checks (and it is likely accurate), Kavanaugh blew it by coming off too angry.

Appear too calm you are an ice cold sociopath confirming all the claims you are a privileged prep school rapist.
Appear too angry you are an abusive, bullying jerk confirming all the claims you are a hot headed abusive rapist.
Kavanaugh's testimony destroyed his credibility.

Ford was compassionate and credible.
Ford's testimony lent credibility to her claims.

Some people might see this as sexist, especially if the roles had been reversed, but the narrative has already been written and reported by the Blue Checks, so who are you Mr. Beale to meddle with the primal forces?

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Re: Believe Survivors - Stollznow Memorial Thread

#58

Post by John D » Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:41 pm

Guest_b8931fdb wrote:
John D wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 11:27 am
I am watching BK's live testimony. Amazing. Ford came across as credible and so does BK. What and event. A must watch!
The early reviews are in, and the narrative has already been written and reported by the Blue Checks (and it is likely accurate), Kavanaugh blew it by coming off too angry.

Appear too calm you are an ice cold sociopath confirming all the claims you are a privileged prep school rapist.
Appear too angry you are an abusive, bullying jerk confirming all the claims you are a hot headed abusive rapist.
Kavanaugh's testimony destroyed his credibility.

Ford was compassionate and credible.
Ford's testimony lent credibility to her claims.

Some people might see this as sexist, especially if the roles had been reversed, but the narrative has already been written and reported by the Blue Checks, so who are you Mr. Beale to meddle with the primal forces?
Yeah. Great stuff. I am wildly entertained. The "Blue Church" is probably going to execute BK for the rest of his life. I am already getting Facebook posts from my lefty friends saying he is a rapist and this is the most offensive thing they have ever seen.

Wow. The times we live in. Yee haw!

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Re: Believe Survivors - Stollznow Memorial Thread

#59

Post by Brive1987 » Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:57 pm

d4m10n wrote:
Brive1987 wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:18 am
But I’ll bet number 61 would have had the goods on him.

This is beyond a circus.

...://twitter.com/esaagar/status/1045049099354079232?s=21
It would not be remotely difficult to come up with 60 people who don't recall hanging out w/ someone they hung out with 3½ decades ago.

I find it striking that anyone would think this moves the needle.
I thought the needle was all about establishing a general vibe and feelz of character from 35 years ago.

This is about where the balance of proof lies vs unsupported anecdotes. So far we are not even at a civil case level.

In lieu of actual evidence.

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Re: Believe Survivors - Stollznow Memorial Thread

#60

Post by Brive1987 » Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:32 pm

d4m10n wrote:
Brive1987 wrote: The very simple fact is that ‘bitches be lying’ - sad as that my be - even when all gut feelz says they are not.
Some accusers are lying, some are telling the truth. (Best practice is to avoid choosing whom to believe upfront.)

Many people are telling the truth as best they understand it, but must continually rely upon (faulty) human memory in the process.

It is possible, for example, that Brett and Mark honestly have no recollection of cornering a young woman in a bedroom—decades ago—because they were highly intoxicated and didn't think much of it at the time. It is also possible that Christine does not correctly recall events of that evening—more than one innocent has been put on death row by an earnest eyewitness.
Brive1987 wrote: So you kinda have to have more than simple say so.
What more could we possibly have in cases like this?

The events described by Dr. Blasey Ford were not recorded and there were only three people in the room at the time.
Some of:
+ fixed frame of reference -time, location, context
+ people placing the two or three people together that night
+ names of fellow party goers
+ BK diary evidence of party
+ police report
+ any contempory feedback at all of the attack from any quarter
+ credible pattern of behaviour by BK
+ unique identifiers of some sort

Beyond this, it’s a lonely tree falling in a forrest.

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